Why not a RBI?

by Morg98 on Jul 8, 2008 12:58 PM CDT Comment 24 comments

With a little lull before game time, I thought I would bring up something I have always considered odd. I want to talk about why certain plays don’t credit the batter with an RBI. First and most obvious is when a run scores on a double play. Yes, I understand the double play is bad. I guess the idea is not to "credit" the hitter with a positive stat for doing something so negative. I guess I just don’t agree with it and my reasoning is this: If a batter puts the ball in play that results in a run scored, it is positive for the club. Is a ground ball double play with the bags full ideal? Of course not. I mean, you do get an RBI on a Sac fly, how much better is that? But there are multiple outcomes which could be potentially worse. A strike out, a pop out to the in field, a double play which includes getting the runner at home. Its not always easy to put the ball in play, so why shouldn’t the batter get an RBI?

Secondly, and maybe a little more gray, would be a runner scoring on an error. An example would be, in a game against the Cardinals last weekend (I think Sunday), Dome hits a ball back to the pitcher and come sprinting out of the box. Not sure if anyone noticed it or if I have a biased that makes me feel he always runs every hit out. Well, with a guy on second the pitcher throws the ball down the right field line and the runner from second scores. Now, we can debate all day whether Dome running down the line had anything to do with the pitcher throwing the ball down the line, but the fact remains, Dome put the ball in play in a way that allowed a run to score. There were a bunch of other things that could have happened where an out would have been recorded and no run scored. So why shouldn’t he be rewarded with making contact and doing something to put the defense at risk?

I don’t have time to look it up, as I am at work and have been writing a sentence here and there as I get a chance, but maybe there is something in the rules or official scoring procedure that explains this.

I know this isn't a very intriguing topic, but I was wonder what everyone else thought.

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Common sense

A double play should never be rewarded in any situation. Ever. Period. The end.

Bases are loaded with no outs. The hitter hits into a double play. Now, we have man on third (most of the time) with two outs. Seven times out of ten, the pitcher escapes with one run.

That should never be rewarded. Ever.

If a pitcher gets himself (or if a reliever comes in) with a bases-loaded, nobody out situation and escapes with one run, he is (rightly) celebrated. He should be.

Furthermore, a sacrifice fly is often an intentional move on the hitter’s part. They will try to do that in a close game.

An error is just that, an error. The runner reached base due to the incompetence of the defense. Batters get RBIs for walks because taking pitches is part of the game.

Think of how stupid the average person is, and remember, half of them are stupider than that!

by DaBard on Jul 8, 2008 1:17 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

You're not really giving a reason

This sounds more like your opinion. I think the reason behind not awarding an RBI on a double play is because the defense CHOSE to go for the two outs instead of trying to throw out the runner heading for home. I’m almost certain that’s the thinking behind it. Where as with a sac fly, the defense has every opportunity (not always a good one) to throw the runner out at home.

Go ahead, Z me.

by tony412 on Jul 8, 2008 1:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Fine. Fair enough.

The run only scored because the defense allowed it.

Same concept as not getting a hit when the defense makes an error.

I don’t care the reason we give this guy. The very notion of an RBI for committing two outs is so repulsive to me that I just wish to stamp it out.

Think of how stupid the average person is, and remember, half of them are stupider than that!

by DaBard on Jul 8, 2008 1:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

agreed

no gripes with that here either

Go ahead, Z me.

by tony412 on Jul 8, 2008 1:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Turning a DP

with the bases loaded is like a fielder’s choice. No RBI.

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by BigJohnAZ on Jul 8, 2008 4:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Your basesloaded comment...

I wouldnt describe it that way, becuase if you load the bases with no one out, and the next two guys strikeout, and the third guy gets a hit, he gets the RBI, i am not really sure you make a clear point here. a double play and back to back Ks are not good at all.

"I love this world. I hope hell is as much fun!"

by HIGGY on Jul 8, 2008 2:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yawn

by cubs on Jul 8, 2008 1:22 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Here’s the official rules on RBI. (Warning: PDF file.)

Appeals to common sense don’t reall mean much when talking about official scoring, DaBard – there is no common sense present in baseball’s official scoring. And in point of fact you CAN get an RBI on a double play, just not a “force double play or reverse force double play.” An outfield assist that doubles off a runner, for example, does not prevent the batter from being awarded an RBI.

A player can also be awarded an RBI on an error – with less than two outs in the inning and a runner at third – at the discretion of the official scorer, if he decides that the runner would have scored on the play without the error. I shouldn’t have to point out how haphazardly subjective that is.

This is why I have a distrust of any accounting categories in baseball (errors, earned runs, runs batted in, etc.) that give the official scorer explicit discretion in scoring them.

I has a blog.

by cwyers on Jul 8, 2008 1:37 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Especially when...

official scorer = baseball writer

As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.

by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 8, 2008 1:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Absolutely.

This should be changed immediately. The scorer should be an umpire—a fifth man on each crew. Can’t imagine why MLB lets this archaic practice continue.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jul 8, 2008 2:11 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs

I'm pretty sure the official scorer is a team employee these days.

I has a blog.

by cwyers on Jul 8, 2008 2:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

The last I knew...

... it was still a sportswriter.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jul 9, 2008 4:24 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

+1

I’ve been wanting the same thing for years.

"Whoever wants to know the heart and mind of America had better learn baseball." - Jacque Barzun

by Bump Bailey on Jul 8, 2008 4:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Nothing haphazard about it.

Speaking as a scorer, I disagree that your RBI on an error is haphazardly subjective. A couple of examples.

If there is a guy on third and one out, and the batter hits a three hopper to SS, and the runner is off with the crack of the bat, he is probably going to score (unless it is Ward). If the fielder makes an error, that error only effects whether or not the batter reaches first, not whether the runner on third gets to the plate. Therefore, the batter gets an RBI.

However, if the infield is in, the same three hopper goes to SS, a good throw beats the runner to the plate but it is thrown over the catcher’s head, there is no RBI, if in the judgment of the scorer he would have been out.

Nothing subjective about it, if he should have been out or should not have scored, no RBI. If he was going to be safe anyway, RBI.

In the middle of a good time, Truth gave me her icy kiss. Look around, you must be joking. All that way, all that way for this -Oysterband

by Ross on Jul 8, 2008 1:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

uhhhhh

However, if the infield is in, the same three hopper goes to SS, a good throw beats the runner to the plate but it is thrown over the catcher’s head, there is no RBI, if in the judgment of the scorer he would have been out. . . . Nothing subjective about it . . .

It is subjective because it’s up to the judgment of the scorer, in your words. just because one’s judgment may be good (as i’m sure yours is), doesn’t means it not subjective.

Before Edmonds: 24-16, (.600); With Edmonds: 29-20 (.592)
Edmonds with Cubs: .276 / .375 / .552

by joeschmitt on Jul 8, 2008 2:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Reasoning for no RBI on Forced Double Play

The batter is responsible for two outs when only one run scores on the play. In the situation of a sacrifice fly, the batter is only responsible for one out when one run scores. There are more important things about which to worry in this world than what counts as an RBI. That is the reasoning I have heard over the years.

"The big possum walks late." - Harry Caray

by memphiscub on Jul 8, 2008 1:58 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

And plus... it defies all logic

To give someone an RBI when, with one swing, he has turned a fantastic inning into an OK one.

Think of how stupid the average person is, and remember, half of them are stupider than that!

by DaBard on Jul 8, 2008 2:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

It's called "runner batted in."

The baserunner scored on a ball batted into play. It’s not called “super duper awesome you did great, dawg!” or something like that.

I has a blog.

by cwyers on Jul 8, 2008 2:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

An error isn't a hit for the batter

Therefore, a double-play shouldn’t result in an RBI.

It rewards failure. The only reason a run scored is because the defense allowed it.

If you like, call it a version of “fielder’s indifference.”

Think of how stupid the average person is, and remember, half of them are stupider than that!

by DaBard on Jul 8, 2008 2:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Bottom Line: RBI is a dumb stat and should be ignored.

Runs scored has just as much value, but nobody gives a flying crap about that one.

by Jerry Mumphrey on Jul 8, 2008 3:35 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Why not AN RBI

sorry that one has been bothering me for a little while

by cubs on Jul 8, 2008 3:59 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

The plural of RBI should technically be RsBI.

I has a blog.

by cwyers on Jul 8, 2008 4:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Only if the scorekeeper is William Safire

by Wreckard on Jul 8, 2008 4:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Maybe I worded my opinion a little wrong...

I just find it odd where the line is drawn on how it is scored. i really don’t care what is considered an RBI and whether it is right or wrong. Obviously the stat is flawed (or incomplete) but so are most stats. You dont look at 1 stat to judge worth. I just think it should be more consistent is all.

If you are at the plate and a run scores via a hit, then your RBI total goes up along with a host of others (OBP, BA, etc.) So when you drive in a run that way, it is reflected in multiple stats increasing worth more. But i don’t really see a huge difference in driving in a run by Sac fly or double play.

Lets say a guy on 3rd, no outs and you get a sac fly, RBI. 1 out. Now lets say the bases are loaded and you get a hit scoring the runner from 3rd and each guy is thrown out subsequently trying to move up bases. 1 RBI, 3 outs. And lastly, bases loaded no outs, and a guy hits into a double play. 1 run, no RBI, 2 outs.

In each case 1 run scored because of what the batter did, if taking the stats name literally, shouldn’t each case be a run batted in and then the perceived overall worth of a player would be looked at by multiple stats instead of one?

Anyways, not a big deal. I just find it odd where the line is drawn for an RBI. Making 1 out while getting the run is job well done where making 2 outs and getting it in is horrendous.

by Morg98 on Jul 8, 2008 5:09 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs