Derrek Lee's Struggles
I’ve done some searching on the site, and haven’t found anything disecting this, so if there is one, my apologies, just ignore me. I’d really like to get people’s take on this, because it puzzles me.
In my opinion, and from what I’m seeing, as are other fans I watch with, Derrek Lee is a shell of what he has been early in the year. This puzzles me because he started slow last year, and hit 17 HR in the last half. Well, this year at the end of May he had 13HRs, right now, he has 17. Thats 4 HRs in 2 1/2 months. For a 3 hitter, thats VERY poor. I had no problem with his lack of power last year, because he was hitting .320 or about. A three hitter, with 17 HRs hitting .289 makes me scratch my head why he’s hitting 3, or what the future for him holds.
AGAIN, I want to make it clear, I don’t want him to be some gorilla that just goes for the fences, but only hitting .289 with the power numbers he has is a large concern. I HATE to sound like I’m nitpicking, really. And I know that the offense has been GREAT, but I’m still concerned about what happens when we REALLY NEED him, or in the seasons to come when he’s owed some good scratch.
Those are not incredibly impressive numbers. I’ve also noticed that he seems to be looking for walks, or just hitting singles in spots when we need a ball driven somewhere. Its my philosophy when you come up with RISP and less thatn 2 outs, as a 3 hitter, put something on a swing, and stop watching balls go right down the middle of the plate. I’d like to know other 3 hitters that have only hit 4 HRs in the alst 2.5 months. Its odd to me because we know he can hit. We know he is a strong, very strong man, but I’m curious to hear what other people are seeing. I’m not campaigning for him to get benched or ANYTHING like that.
He has good doubles, & hits numbers, but for a 3 hitter, other numbers just aren’t there. The way he is hitting, he would be a great 2 hitter. I’ve said it once, I’ll say it again: its obvious he’s rolling over a ton of pitches. I’ve seen it happen plenty of times, in serious competitve baseball, where a hitter who is doing that, starts swinging a heavier bat, and those offspeed pitches hammered into the ground, turn into line drives up the box.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
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I wish I knew why.
In the first half, he was hitting like he was the second half of last year. Now he’s stopped hitting anything but singles, for the most part. I imagine he’d like to figure out why, too.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
Yeah
I think most people have been noticing. I said to my friend last night ‘remember when Lee hit homerruns?’.
It would certainly be nice if he started hitting homers again. I agree that I don’t need to see him benched or anything, but he hasn’t been extremely clutch, and he’s not really a weapon to put an immediate 2 or 3 on the board, and that’s something that you really like to have from your #3.
Hopefully he turns it around and soon, because the way he’s looking he won’t even reach 20HRs, and I was hoping for at least 25, but really more like 30.
In addition to what you say............
……………I think we have to say 2005 was an aberration for Lee. That’s the only season in which he’s scored or driven in 100 runs, and his .335 BA that year was significantly higher than any other he’s ever posted.
Unfortuntately, many of us – myself included – seem to think this is the way Derrek Lee should be hitting all of the time. It may be time for us to readjust our perspectives, and if we have to do it, perhaps Piniella has to consider changes as well.
"Happiness? A good cigar, a good meal, a good cigar and a good woman - or a bad woman; it depends on how much happiness you can handle." ~ George Burns
However...
… he did consistently hit 25-30 HR with the Marlins and in his first year with the Cubs, he hit 32. I’d like to see him get at least back to that level. He is .030 below his lifetime SLG this year; it’d be nice to see him get back there.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
Yes...
thats why its puzzling. We all know he’s worth more than 17 HR’s at this point. Walks are great, but you don’t pay your 3 hitter to be a guy that tries to walk. Do you think he would change these numbers we speak of if he wasn’t overly selective at the plate? Seems to me he watches WAY too many balls go down the middle, and doesn’t even think of swinging.
Its funny, you spend most of your life gripping a baseball. And in the end, its almost always the other way around.
Well...
… I don’t see his walk rate as particularly high this year… 51 BB at this point of the season translates to about 70-75 for the season, pretty close to his career average.
So the answer is, I don’t know what the trouble is.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
Let me rephrase
he’s getting behind in way too many at bats by letting pitches go right down the middle.
Its funny, you spend most of your life gripping a baseball. And in the end, its almost always the other way around.
I have noticed that as well. Its almost like he is guessing...
..and never guessing correctly. If I had a dime for every meaty fastball he watched all the way into the catchers glove, I would have at least $5 bucks ;)
I love D Lee and this has been a very frustrating season to watch him at the plate.
"When I got to Chicago, fans came to Wrigley Field just to have fun, now they come to see us win. The expectations have changed, for the players and for the fans. It’s about winning." Kerry Wood, 7/14/08
I've noticed this as well
He is usually behind in the count, and mostly because of one or two fat strikes he simply watched. Then he’ll swing at something low and away, if he makes contact, he rolls over it and if there’s a man on first, a GIDP. He isn’t driving the ball the opposite way at all. Maybe it’s a vision thing. Is this the real D Lee or was the end of last year/early this year the real Lee? Maybe he’s more of a guess hitter than we think. If he is, he’s not very good, as you can almost bet the house pitchers are starting him off with first pitch fastballs the last 2+ months and he offers at none of them.
The one constant is his stellar play at first base. He’s saved many a run and at crucial times of the game.
"WGN, Channel 9 Cubs Baseball, Excitingly, Importantly, Dramatically Yours." - Jack Brickhouse
His bat
speed just appears slower to me. When pitchers make mistakes on the inner half of the plate, he doesn’t turn on the ball the way he used to; he’s swinging through a lot of balls, and grounding out way too often. Having said that, he’s more aware of this than anyone, and I’m sure he’s trying to work it out. Maybe today is the day.
"Chicago Cubs fans are ninety percent scar tissue." - George F. Will
It may be the bat speed
Honesly, i have no idea. But he’s basically become an opposite field slap hitter with occasional power. At times he looks disinterested. I don’t know if that is the case, but he could be distracted by the problems his daughter is having.
In the world I see--you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty carpool lane of some abandoned superhighway.
His bat speed
is not slower. Its too fast. All the balls he beats into the ground, especially offspeed, are because the barrel of the bat is already through the zone before the pitch gets there and he’s rolling over everything.
Its funny, you spend most of your life gripping a baseball. And in the end, its almost always the other way around.
right...
Because the way you hit for more power is to slow your bat down. Good call.
I remember reading a story about how Babe Ruth had a problem with hitting too many weak grounders to the right side. That’s why he went to a 54-oz bat, you know. Because of the weight of that famous stick, his bat speed slowed down enough to the point where it would absolutely crush a baseball. So slow that it wouldn’t have hurt a person to get hit with that swing, but damn, would it murder a baseball…
If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving an infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even considering if there are men on base. ~Dave Barry
by mambochicken23 on Aug 18, 2008 7:14 AM CDT up reply actions
I'm guessing
you don’t play, and if you do, you’re lost. I’m not saying “swing as hard as a 6th grader and the ball will fly”. I’m telling you the obvious. When your hands are too fast, or your bat is too light, causing your hands to travel to the zone too fast, the ball will not hit the good part of the pat, and you will hit the ball on the extreme top half, at the end of your swing resulting feebly hit balls. There is no way around it. At all. Period. Its my assumption, he either had poor timing as of late, or could swing a heavier bat the counter the quickness through the zone. So, yes, it would result in more HR’s and doubles, because he will hit the ball deeper in the zone, centering the ball on the sweet spot of the bat, rather than the end, and hitting the center of the baseball.
Its funny, you spend most of your life gripping a baseball. And in the end, its almost always the other way around.
obnoxious
It’s really obnoxious when people go to that “argument” like you have done, twice, in this thread. The argument, or contention, being that “I’ve played and I’m guessing you haven’t because what you say is so dumb, there’s no way you’ve played baseball.” I was a starting pitcher all four years during college, and continue to play in a men’s league since then. I’ve played baseball in one form or another for about 22 of my 26 years. Quit making idiotic assumptions.
And secondly, you’re still wrong. Slowing the bat down is not the answer for more power. Bat speed is the single most important quantity in hitting a ball with power… there’s a tremendously good reason that the most prodigious power hitters have the greatest bat speed.
Assuming that you’re right about one thing (and I am not conceding this, but for the sake of argument will humor you for the moment), and Lee is rolling over a bunch of balls right now, the problem wouldn’t be bat speed. The problem would be staying back on pitches. If he stayed back on pitches a split-second longer, he wouldn’t be in front of the ball, therefore he wouldn’t roll over and weakly hit the ball to the left side. Additionally, he could keep his bats at the same weight, maintaining his bat speed and preserving his power.
So yeah, chew on that a while. Does it taste bitter?
If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving an infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even considering if there are men on base. ~Dave Barry
by mambochicken23 on Aug 18, 2008 10:34 PM CDT up reply actions
Derrek Lee isn't the great player Cub fans make him out to be
Derrek Lee is a quality baseball player. Quality hitter, fine defensive 1st baseman, seemingly a great teammate and gentleman….
But Lee isn’t the player who had the career year in 2005. Therein lies the problem with too many Cub fans.
I agree completely
We have a tendency to fall in love with classy guys like Lee and then overlook the problems.
I’m also not advocating benching him or anything like that but I’d really like to see him dropped in the order. He simply isn’t a #3 hitter and I’m worried that keeping him in that spot is going to hurt us in the long run (playoffs). Also, who knows? Dropping him to #5 or #6 might even help take some of the pressure off of him. He seems very frustrated these days and that isn’t going to help his hitting any.
by bluekoolaide on Aug 17, 2008 2:08 PM CDT up reply actions
Who should hit #3 in this lineup?
And don’t say “Soriano” because we know he’s not being moved.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
Hoffpauir!
Hit Hoff 3rd! Put Lee 8th, except when Z is pitching. Then D-Lee should hit 9th, because he sucks. Also, move Theriot to leadoff, bat Soriano 5th behind A-Ram. Oh, and Daryle Ward hit a homer the other day didn’t he?… so let’s bat him 6th behind Soriano. So my ideal lineup looks like this:
1. Theriot SS
2. Fontenot 2B
3. Hoffpauir C
4. Ramirez 3B
5. Soriano LF
6. Ward RF
7. Edmonds/Johnson CF
8. Zambrano P
9. Lee 1B
Bonus! With this lineup, we’ll have the best bench in the majors, with Soto, DeRosa, and Fukudome available to PH or be really great late-inning defensive subs! You can’t misunderestimate the value of a great bench, after all. But what was the point of all this? I forget… oh yeah. Lee sucks.
Yeah, that’s the ticket.
If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving an infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even considering if there are men on base. ~Dave Barry
by mambochicken23 on Aug 18, 2008 8:08 AM CDT up reply actions
Hoffpauir batting third and catching? Why do
you waste your time with stuff like this. I realize that this is a fantasy lineup, but at least make it somewhat serious so I don’t have to spend time looking at something that will never happen. Oh, you werent’ serious? Never mind.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Aug 18, 2008 8:20 AM CDT up reply actions
hahaha
If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving an infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even considering if there are men on base. ~Dave Barry
by mambochicken23 on Aug 18, 2008 8:39 AM CDT up reply actions
That was my knee-jerk BCB response to your post. I'll call
it the Blue Mike response. There’s nothing like starting a good argument.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Aug 18, 2008 8:42 AM CDT up reply actions
I don't think
its a matter of us loving him, but of some of us feeling he IS better than his numbers show. Thats why I say if he is more aggresive these numbers will go up. H’e’s not the ‘05 guy, but as Al has pointed out, he’s hit 30+ hr’s before that year. He just needs to be more aggresive.
Its funny, you spend most of your life gripping a baseball. And in the end, its almost always the other way around.
I don't thikn his lack of power will lead to move im in teh order this year,
but next year i would be shocked to see him hit there, he simply isn’t a #3 any more. Maybe you move him to #5 and let Aram and Soto go 3 and 4… I don’t know but I do think something will need to change.
Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living."
You're probably right.
It’s hard to imagine that pinella is going to drop him in the order at this point. Unfortunately, waiting until next year could turn into a classic case of “too little, too late”.
by bluekoolaide on Aug 17, 2008 2:10 PM CDT up reply actions
are you serious right now?
If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving an infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even considering if there are men on base. ~Dave Barry
by mambochicken23 on Aug 18, 2008 7:15 AM CDT up reply actions
Almost leading the league in Grounding Into Double Plays
He is one behind Vlad for that mark. That has really affected run production with his constant inning killing groundballs. This is way off his career mark for GIDP which is alarming. Possibly a mechanics issue more so than bat speed.
Actually look at GIDP like this:
He only has many GIDP because players like Theriot are in front of him. Lee is hitting the ball to the same places as he did in the past there just aren’t people on base as often. DP is not the issue with him. He just isn’t hitting as much power as he did earlier. Hopefully it gets figured out for Sept/Oct.
No fault to Theriot
Last time I made this statement someone called me a Theriot basher. Soriano and Fukudome could be on base too with speed and DLee would hit into DP’s just as often.
I tried to make this argument as well
didn’t work.
Our 2008 Chicago Cubs -- FINDING WAYS TO WIN!
by drewishdrewid on Aug 18, 2008 9:29 AM CDT up reply actions
No.
I’m no Theriot apologist, but this is silly.
Lee is hitting a LOT more ground balls this year than in years past. That’s the real culprit.
by Shanghai Badger on Aug 17, 2008 9:47 PM CDT up reply actions
Is he, though?
Do you have any numbers on this?
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
I'll try to find it
I heard a reference from Len Kasper earlier in the year that the GB/FB ratio was siginificantly higher for Lee this year than in the past, but I can’t find his source right now.
Cwyers, are you there? You might have this before I can find it…
by Shanghai Badger on Aug 18, 2008 6:44 AM CDT up reply actions
yeah
his GB/FB is 1.33 this year, up from 1.08 last year (and 1.06 for his career). His GB% is 44.7, up from 41.3 last year, 40.3% for his career. His FB% is down accordingly. Good news is that his LD% is basically the same as his career norms.
I’m not sure if the few percentage points of difference in the GB and FB numbers is significant though.
If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving an infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even considering if there are men on base. ~Dave Barry
by mambochicken23 on Aug 18, 2008 7:21 AM CDT up reply actions
That's fairly significant.
So what’s the answer?
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
well...
If you think about it, a 4% increase in the likelihood of a groundball only amounts to what, an additional 20-25 groundballs over the course of an entire season of about about 600 plate appearances? That works out to be appx. one more groundball every six games. It’s hard to imagine that this uptick would account for the increase in DP (23 this year vs. 15 all last year, already more than 50% increase).
So yeah, I’d say that it’s more likely that the generally high OBP of the lineup contributes to the high number of DPs that Lee has had. That, and probably a good dose of bad luck.
If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving an infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even considering if there are men on base. ~Dave Barry
by mambochicken23 on Aug 18, 2008 8:36 AM CDT up reply actions
Without checking exact #s
I’m going to guess that the combined OBP of Pierre-Castillo was fairly close to the combined OBP of Soriano-Theriot. Lee also hit down the order in Chicago when he first got here, behind slow but on base runners Alou, Sosa, Ramirez, etc.
The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.
I've followed Lee closely.
And he’s not really getting anything to hit. Although, his bat speed is alot slower to the eye than it was in 2005.
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Not getting anything to hit?!!?
He is down 0-1, 0-2 ALL THE TIME. He gets PLENTY of good ptiches to hit early, and fastball too. But teams are seeing he’s not aggresive and they’ll be up 0-1 almost automatically. And his bat speed is TOO FAST. Thats why you get the feebile ground outs to the left side. His hands are too fast for the size of bat he swings, resulting in hitting the extreme top half of the ball, with the end of the bat.
Its funny, you spend most of your life gripping a baseball. And in the end, its almost always the other way around.
Disagree on getting anything to hit
Quite the opposite in fact. Lee gets healthy dose of good hitter’s pitches. Biggest reason why is because opposing pitchers would rather challenge Lee versus face Aramis Ramirez, who despite his ups and downs in 2008 remains THE best and most feared run producer in the Cub lineup and one of the best in the National League.
The evidence suggests two things…
1. 2005 was clearly a career year
2. Derrek Lee is in slowdown phase
Doesn’t mean he still isn’t a good and important baseball player. He is. But it’s not instigating to say Derrek Lee is the 4th most desirable first basesman in the National League Central.
My statement agrees with you...
he gets PLENTY to hit.
Its funny, you spend most of your life gripping a baseball. And in the end, its almost always the other way around.
Thats a bonehead
decision, and doesn’t happen any other time.
Its funny, you spend most of your life gripping a baseball. And in the end, its almost always the other way around.
actually,
it’s happened more than once. The other time, Rami got a walk-off, didn’t he?
Our 2008 Chicago Cubs -- FINDING WAYS TO WIN!
by drewishdrewid on Aug 19, 2008 9:56 AM CDT up reply actions
Based on the fish putting him on base today
they don’t seem to realize that his numbers are down. That decision was very strange
I thought so too
Couldn’t believe our luck there. Knew that it was a tactical decision, but I would rather pitch to Lee right now with runners at 2nd and 3rd and 1 out than pitch to Rami with the bases juiced and 1 out. They were hoping for a sharp ground ball (and got one. It was just too sharply hit to be playable.)
What bothers me
Isn’t the lack of homeruns. It’s the lack of line drives — he just doesn’t hit the ball with authority that often. Right now, he’ s hitting more like a #2 hitter than a #3.
I’m concerned for the team, and I’m disappointed, because he’s probably my favorite Cub. But he’s not who I want up right now with the game on the line — not even in the top 3.
by Shanghai Badger on Aug 17, 2008 9:33 PM CDT reply actions
Amen.
He wasn’t really hitting homeruns last year either but his OBP was some fifty points higher so you could argue that he wasn’t necessarily hurting us in the 3 hole.
And, at the risk of getting way ahead of myself, I’m already starting to worry about how his hitting #3 could affect us in the playoffs,
by bluekoolaide on Aug 17, 2008 9:51 PM CDT up reply actions
Really? Seriously?
The Cubs might have the best offense in baseball, and you’re worried about Derrek Lee’s effect on the team’s offensive production in the playoffs? Here’s a question: After 124 games of an excellent Cubs offensive attack, why would you be concerned that things would suddenly be oh-so-different in the playoffs? Suddenly, with the turn of a calendar page, the Cubs will not be able to score runs… and it will be Lee’s fault?
Come on.
If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving an infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even considering if there are men on base. ~Dave Barry
by mambochicken23 on Aug 18, 2008 7:35 AM CDT up reply actions
It's Lee fault this week
but it was Dome’s fault last week. If we keep going alphabetically, eventually we’ll get to Ramirez and Soto, too.
The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.
Lee's our #3 hitter
by definition that makes him our best hitter. As we all remember, our offense died in the playoffs last year-obviously that was not just one man’s fault but if you’re getting below average production in such an important spot, it’s obviously not going to help your chances of advancing.
by bluekoolaide on Aug 18, 2008 8:27 AM CDT up reply actions
no...
by definition it makes him our #3 hitter.
Get a grip.
If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving an infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even considering if there are men on base. ~Dave Barry
by mambochicken23 on Aug 18, 2008 8:47 AM CDT up reply actions
I've actually read some things suggesting
that to maximize a lineup’s run creation, you want your 5th best hitter hitting 3rd. What that means, clearly, is that Lou is so genius that he knew Lee would be so bad and put him 3rd on purpose.
The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.
umm... no
Can you tell me where the definition of #3 hitter is that he is the team’s best hitter?
Bonds hit 4th for years.
Sosa spent half of his career hitting 4th.
The Book actually says that the #3 slot should be your 4th or 5th best player.
visit the mindful mission
by big_lowitzki on Aug 18, 2008 11:49 AM CDT up reply actions
IIRC
your best all around/on base hitter is #3 and your best RBI guys are #4 and #5. My 2 cents.
"WGN, Channel 9 Cubs Baseball, Excitingly, Importantly, Dramatically Yours." - Jack Brickhouse
well...
… that would be the conventional wisdom position.
That would not be what statistical analysis shows, as it shown in The Book:
"Your three best hitters should bat somewhere in the 1, 2 and 4 slots. Your fourth and fifth best hitters should occupy the 3 and 5 slots. 1 and 2 guys should walk more often.
visit the mindful mission
by big_lowitzki on Aug 18, 2008 3:56 PM CDT up reply actions
Depends
on who you have to fill out the lineup. You can’t generalize a lineup and say every time that X needs to hit here, and X needs to hit there. Some lineups have more speed and less power, more power and plate discipline than speed. It depends on who you have. However look around the league, the Utley’s, Pujols’, Berkmann’s, and Quentin’s all hit 3. Its my belief, when possible, that your BEST hitter should hit 3. Because he’s a run producer, with good OB%, good plate discipline, can hit RH/LHP well, and will see more ABs during the course of a year.
Its funny, you spend most of your life gripping a baseball. And in the end, its almost always the other way around.
hmm...
Your belief aligns perfectly with the conventional wisdom. That doesn’t necessarily make it true.
And yes, it depends on who you have to fill out the lineup. The Book addresses that, and still determined what I stated above. Your overall best hitters should bat 1, 2, and 4, and your 4th and 5th guys should bat 3 and 5.
Of course… lineup construction has a very minimal impact on run production, but the above “order” is what maximizes your run scoring potential.
visit the mindful mission
by big_lowitzki on Aug 18, 2008 6:18 PM CDT up reply actions
So majority
of MLB managers are wrong?
Its funny, you spend most of your life gripping a baseball. And in the end, its almost always the other way around.
"The Book"
I’m out of baseball books.. I see you’ve read the book, do you suggest it? Have you read “The Book on the Book”?
Its funny, you spend most of your life gripping a baseball. And in the end, its almost always the other way around.
Yea...
… I would recommend it. It is pretty intense, in that it involves and discusses advanced statistics, but if you can at least follow what they are talking about, it is a fascinating read.
visit the mindful mission
by big_lowitzki on Aug 18, 2008 9:11 PM CDT up reply actions
Given how much turnover there is in baseball management
it’s not hard to see why most managers stick with the CW. When you do something odd like bat the pitcher 8th, there may be mathematical proofs for why it should produce more runs, but to get away with it, you have to be a guy like TLR who has a mythos of managerial wisdom and even then he explains it in terms of being all about Albertus Magnus. Yost tried it and couldn’t get away with it. It’s too easy to point to a manager doing something odd as an excuse to fire him if the team isn’t winning.
The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.
Yes...
… they are.
visit the mindful mission
by big_lowitzki on Aug 18, 2008 9:10 PM CDT up reply actions
No.
His line drive rate is 21.7% this year, up from 20.6% last year. His career LD% is 21.6%.
If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving an infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even considering if there are men on base. ~Dave Barry
by mambochicken23 on Aug 18, 2008 7:26 AM CDT up reply actions
At least defense is there
As long as DLee can pick up every poorly thrown ball I’m happy. He will get his hits. I mean his DP’s are only because we have on base machines in front of him (Theriot and Fukudome @ #2).
A testament to Lee’s fielding was proven in 2006. With Mabry mostly playing first (I think Blanco played a few games there too) players like Cedeno were charged with tons of errors. Thus it also made Cedeno look like a horrible SS—- he did have his blunders dont get me wrong. I bet if Derrek were playing 1st base that entire season Cedeno would have had 10 less errors. That also might have calmed his hitting…just a thought.
He will be fine...
Big “D” will be fine, they dont pitch to him for a reason, he has proved he can hit, the double play’s suck. Oh, and wait he plays everyday, on an infield that rotates everyone but one. I think he has played long enough, that he knows what to do and when to do it. Being a single, double, or a homer, he is the example we need. You dont see him standing at home watching, or stretching a double into a single.
ernie81
I wish I wasn't annoyed...
Because me being annoyed suggests that I’m surprised. I shouldn’t be surprised at the hand-wringing that is going on here. I’ve seen enough of you ready to jump off the ledge that this shouldn’t surprise me.
Derrek Lee is not a problem.
Let me repeat that for you.
Derrek Lee is not a problem.
These are great days to be a Cubs fan. The team is clicking on all cylinders. You look at any meaningful team statistical category, and the Cubs are at or near the top. In the National League, our hitting stats… first in BA (.281), first in runs (672), first in OBP (.359), first in SLG (.448); our pitching stats… first in BAA (.242), second in ERA (3.77), third in OPS (.716), second in WHIP (1.29). Most importantly and not coincidentally, we lead in victories as well.
Now, why does anyone feel the need to bring the rest of us down with this negativity? The numbers, if not our lying eyes, suggest that Lee is still a good, if not great, hitter. I’d wager that his power numbers will bounce back over the next 6 weeks as well. Most importantly, the Cubs offense is doing just fine with him in the 3 hole. Jeebus.
If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving an infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even considering if there are men on base. ~Dave Barry
I hate to say it
Ok, I know I’m going to get hammered on this, and by no means am I suggesting he isn’t a good player and a solid number 3 hitter (depsite a few to many dp’s he is nice in that role). Plus he saves our buts defensively an awful lot. However look around all of the majors, home runs and production is down with a few exceptions across the board. Puljols is struggling to get to thirty homers this year? I don’t think it is just coincidence that all the bats are looking slower and 25 hrs is once again a tough mark to get to. I wonder why this could be? I love D Lee and think we would be a lesser team without him, but I can’t deny the offense in mlb is alot different the last couple years.
by graceunderpressure on Aug 18, 2008 7:59 AM CDT reply actions
sigh
The answer isn’t always “steroids”, you know.
If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving an infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even considering if there are men on base. ~Dave Barry
by mambochicken23 on Aug 18, 2008 8:09 AM CDT up reply actions
I know...
I was just throwing it out there because it just seems amazing how much baseball has returned to 1985 numbers all of sudden. I was looking a production numbers during ball games this weekend, Bobby Abreau has like 17 hrs, when is the last time he struggled to put up big number prior to last year. I’m not saying this about D lee to run his name around, I figured EVERYONE was trying for edge at the time. I just think it could be one possibility. I’ll shut up now.
by graceunderpressure on Aug 18, 2008 8:16 AM CDT up reply actions
It's a whole lot less likely that everyone was taking PEDs
than that, the baseballs are different, than that, all the teams are using the humidor now, etc.
The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.
I've wondered about the same thing
and while it’s not right to automatically accuse people, this kind of suspicion i’s an unfortunate by-product of the “steroids era”.
As for D-Lee though, that wouldn’t explain why he hit so well in April and much of May.
by bluekoolaide on Aug 18, 2008 8:34 AM CDT up reply actions
If you want to search for a chemical reason...
…it’s more likely that the elimination of amphetamines has had a greater effect.
162 games is a lot of games…without a pick-me-up every once in a while….
Let my ashes blow in a beautiful snow from the prevailing 30 mile an hour southwest wind...
When my last remains go flying over the left field wall, I'll bid the bleacher bums adieu,
And I will come to my final resting place, out on Waveland Avenue. --Steve Goodman
Is it possible that his wrist
injury has caused permanent damage? A hitter without maximum strength in his wrist will never be a consistent power producer. It’s possible that D-Lee will never produce power at the rate he has in recent years. Thacoupled with his family problems could be as much of a contributor to his power falloff as anything else.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Aug 18, 2008 8:32 AM CDT reply actions
Then explain how he DID hit for power...
… in the 2nd half of last year and until June of this year.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
I think the injury may be causing him
to be less of a consistent hitter. Even during his hot streaks he hits a lot of weak fly balls to right and rolls over a lot of balls producing grounders to the left side. I don’t see him driving inside pitches into the left-center gap like he did before, even when he was hitting over .300.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Aug 18, 2008 8:39 AM CDT up reply actions
You may be right.
I would say, though, that when I see him start DRIVING balls to RF, that’s a sign that he’s starting to get into a hitting groove. He did that at the end of spring training and then started off the year hot.
If he starts doing that again, hitting drives to the RF gap, that should be a sign he’s coming out of it.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
I agree. He hasn't been driving a lot of balls anywhere
lately. Right now I don’t know where his hot zone is. He’s not turning on inside pitches and he’s not driving outside pitches. I just hope he gets it back before the playoffs start.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Aug 18, 2008 8:54 AM CDT up reply actions
Sheesh...
We have the best record in the Nat. league and start to pick at this team. Unbelieveable….it really boils down to what you want you 3 hitter to do, be a good productive hitter that can talk a walk,drive a double in the gap or a homer. How many out there can do all that. I believe he sets the tone for our team in every aspect, fielding, leadership, the way to go about being a pro. He will slow down as he gets older and move down in the order, but will continue to be a great ball player. To even suggest the steroids thing is being a product of Chicago (Sammy and all)just because ya’ll had the wool cap pulled down one time (98) dosent mean they are all on steroids. Pull up every roster in baseball and look at the big pitcher and then tell me who you want!
ernie81
I don't see why there is something wrong with talking about this.
And the thread that you’ve responded to doesn’t mention steroids. Nor is it particularly negative. If you’re going to rip on someone for being negative, at least pick a negative post to reply to.
Lee hasn’t been driving the ball like he used to. There is nothing seditious about discussing that — if you’d prefer not to, you don’t need to. But that doesn’t mean that others of us can’t.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Aug 18, 2008 12:36 PM CDT up reply actions
this does
This does bring up steroids (above). Its just, we as Cub fans look for something bad to happen, instead of something good. D. Lee said the same thing on W.G.N. before a game
ernie81
No, it's mentioned in the post
But not in the thread.
You replied to willie, who replied to Al, and if you go up from there, it goes to willie talking about Derrek’s wrist. None of those 5 messages mention steroids.
When you post something in reply, it is assumed that you’re talking about the message that you are replying to.
And again, why is it an issue to talk about Lee’s batting? It’s a Cubs blog. Lee is a Cub. It’s not like there is a preponderance of messages saying, “Lee sucks! DFA him!” I could understand you objecting to a discussion like that. This isn’t even close to that.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Aug 18, 2008 3:19 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm sorry....
I feel bad about my post with D Lee, because I think he is about as stand up as there is, and I feel awful about his family situation. It was just an overall observation about baseball which i felt applied to D Lee possibly. Hey, I love baseball, I just don’t see myself as niave anymore. I was in 98 and got excited everytime Sammy went crazy. I just don’t believe this different baseballs, smaller parks, better pitching (whatever excuse for what seems obvious to me). I just sit thinking during games that the days are over of getting a home run on command (and I think the game is better for it). We are back to power hitters having hot streaks, not entire months at a time of wild power. Anyway, I’m rambling, but there that is.
by graceunderpressure on Aug 18, 2008 9:26 AM CDT reply actions
Lee's Conscious of all the DPs
so that could be why he’s morphed into a hitter that punches the ball to the right side. I saw the same thing happen to Jim Rice back in the mid 80s.
Also I noticed that Lee pulls up his hands a lot when taking hittable strikes. So that could mean he’s not seeing the ball as well. Short of glasses or Lasik surgery, maybe he could try moving a step back in the box so he can stride into those perceived “inside” fastballs and drive them.
"Sometimes I feel like as a Cubs fan if I’m not worrying about something, I’m not doing it right." - HalfBlindCubbieGirl
Disagree with problem
I think the general argument here has been that Lee is taking too many good pitches and not swinging enough. I think that is dead wrong.
Lee is seeing the fewest pitches per at bat in 4 years, the 2nd fewest in 7 years, 3rd fewest in his 12 year career. What’s more he isnt striking out more often.
The problem is that he isnt seeing enough pitches and the ones he does swing at resultin ground balls. That seems like he is swinging at a lot of borderline pitches to me. I think he needs to be more selective swinging the bat, not less. Specifically with men on.
From 2003 on, Derrek has been more patient with men on than with none on. But this year, his splits show identical BA and OBP in those situations, but a massive dropoff in SLG with men in scoring position. I would guess that he is just trying to put the ball in play with men on, leading to a counter productive tendancy towards groundballs. Instead he should remain patient, take the walk if its all that is offerred, take the borderline pitches with less than two strikes, and swing freely at meaty strikes.
Reed Ballgame - best CF in the MLB
by californiachicagoan on Aug 18, 2008 2:47 PM CDT reply actions
Could those numbers
regarding pitches per at bat be because he is (lately) 0-1, 0-2 in the count? The pitchers are going after him early and he is swinging at borderline pitches trying to protect once he’s in a pitcher’s count? If he’s starting 1-0, 2-0 in the count, the pitcher has to work more and he most likely sees more pitches? Does that make sense?
"WGN, Channel 9 Cubs Baseball, Excitingly, Importantly, Dramatically Yours." - Jack Brickhouse
Couldn't disagree
with you more (respectfully). All it takes is to watch majority of his ABs over the last 2 months, and you’ll CLEARLY see he takes first pitches right down the shoot majority of the time. There is absolutely no debating it what so ever. He doesn’t even take the bat off his shoulders. Also, he is refusing (with the exception of against Glavine) to be aggressive to the right side on outside pitches (why wouldn’t he just keep doing that!!). The stats show, more of his ABs result in getting down 0-1 than any other count. Pitches per at bat don’t mean a thing when you’re starting down 0-1, 0-2 all the time. Sooner or later you do have to swing, and he’s swinging because he needs to protect. Derrek Lee is a 3 hitter, he gets paid A LOT OF MONEY TO DRIVE IN RUNS, not walk or hit singles.
You said it “he is just trying to put the ball in play”…thats because he already has 2 strikes.
Its funny, you spend most of your life gripping a baseball. And in the end, its almost always the other way around.
you know what I'd love?
If you could provide the stats that indicate that he’s starting down 0-1 or 0-2 the majority of the time. A better stat would be comparing Lee’s frequency of getting behind in the count vs. the frequency of all other hitters in MLB getting behind in the count. You’re making a strong statement here… back it up with something real instead of “all it takes is to watch the majority of his ABs over the last two months…”
On this thread I’ve already indicated that his line drive rate is practically the same as ever, while his GB% is only SLIGHTLY higher and his FB% only slightly lower (to the tune of about 1 more groundball and one less flyball a week). Lee will be fine, and is not a problem. Stop being Chicken Little.
If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving an infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even considering if there are men on base. ~Dave Barry
by mambochicken23 on Aug 18, 2008 5:34 PM CDT up reply actions
Chicken Little..Really?
Funny, because if you read the original diary, it talks about what to do next year and other scenarios. Second of all, I’ll give you numbers.. lets see…
Slugging= Down…way down
Average= Down
OB%= Down… way down
OPS= Down… way down
GIDP= SKYROCKETING
41% of all his AB’s result in him having at least 2 strikes.
He’s also down 0-2 more than he’s up 2-0.
His BA in “close and late situations” last year was .346… this year its .278
His BA at home is down nearly 100 pts.
Do you want more nubmers? There are more. And clearly they don’t side with you.
We’re not comparing him to other players, we’re comparing Derrek to Derrek
Its funny, you spend most of your life gripping a baseball. And in the end, its almost always the other way around.
Listen...
First of all, BA in “close and late situations” is meaningless. There’s no such thing as a “clutch” hitter. Consult Bill James for reference. In fact, let’s forget about BA entirely. It’s a mostly worthless stat.
Second, I just told you: Lee’s peripherals (his rate stats) are very, very close to his lifetime levels. Are they down? Sure, a little bit. But a good dose of the reduction in his numbers probably have to do with some bad luck.
Finally, your numbers citing the frequency with which he’s down 0-2 vs. up 2-0, or what percentage of his ABs have him with 2 strikes… these are totally meaningless without knowing how other players fare. What if the average % of the time that other players have 2 strikes on them is 60%? Then, you’d say that Lee is doing quite well in that department. Alternatively, you could compare Lee’s season in this regard to his past seasons. But just citing a number without any kind of reference point is absolutely pointless. Bad analysis. Bad logic.
I repeat: Derrek Lee is not a problem. When he hits 8 homers and slugs .650 over the next 38 games I’m going to laugh at all of you.
If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving an infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even considering if there are men on base. ~Dave Barry
by mambochicken23 on Aug 18, 2008 7:13 PM CDT up reply actions
should clarify...
“the reduction in his numbers” refers to the reduction in his OBP, SLG, and other stats that don’t seem to be accounted for simply by the slight reduction in his rate stats.
If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving an infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even considering if there are men on base. ~Dave Barry
by mambochicken23 on Aug 18, 2008 7:14 PM CDT up reply actions
Dude...
his numbers aren’t the same, no matter what formula you put them in. Go ahead and laugh all you want if he does well, because if you read the diary, or the posts no one here is calling for his head. No one is saying he isn’t capable. In fact, you may have missed where I posted that I know he’s better than this. Meaning I still think he can hit if he figures some stuff out. So laugh all you want. Also, don’t tell me there isn’t clutch. Don’t tell me Ortiz or Manny aren’t clutch. Maybe you play ball, maybe you don’t, but I do, and can tell you first hand there is such thing as clutch. Don’t tell me there’s no mental game you need to fight in clutch situations. Thats bull. Its the human mind, only machine’s would approach every situation in hitting the same. And I also never said he was a problem chief. I wanted to get people’s thoughts on why he’s not the same dangerous hitter he can be. Which numbers show he isn’t.
Its funny, you spend most of your life gripping a baseball. And in the end, its almost always the other way around.
damn it...
OK, regarding “clutch hitting”:
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=2656
Little to no evidence to demonstrate that any players have the ability to be better than they usually are in “clutch” situations. Manny and Ortiz are not “clutch” hitters.. they’re great hitters who just do what they always do in situations that we define as clutch. Do some research, man! Damn!
I was a starting pitcher for four years in college ball, for what it’s worth.
Specifically regarding Lee… Your numbers demonstrate that his production is down. I admit that’s true. But my numbers, his rate stats, demonstrate that he’s really not that far from his career norms. This suggests that he’s hit into a fair amount of bad luck, and that his traditional stats (e.g., HR, BA, OBP) will rebound.
If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving an infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even considering if there are men on base. ~Dave Barry
by mambochicken23 on Aug 18, 2008 7:48 PM CDT up reply actions
Just because
BP writes it, doesn’t mean its gospel. I still stand pat and say some guys can’t hit for nothing when the game is on the line. Its the mental makeup of people. So you’re telling me, that if a guy has good numbers in “close and late situations” (which i’m not saying are gospel either" if doesn’t matter if he’s at the plate? Its the same as any player the with same nubmers? I disagree. Damn that. I hope Lee does rebound, and I never said he couldn’t. I just wanted to get people’s thoughts as far as why he has dipped
Its funny, you spend most of your life gripping a baseball. And in the end, its almost always the other way around.
so you stand pat...
and say “Screw the numbers, I believe my own eyes instead of the cold, hard, irrefutable facts!”
It isn’t as though BP is pulling shit out of thin air here. It’s not like the writer says, “Well, I don’t believe in clutch hitting. It just doesn’t make sense! And I back that up with absolutely nothing.” They write instead that the correlation between past and current clutch performance is 0.01, with a SD of 0.07. In other words… NO correlation. In other words, there’s no such thing as a clutch hitter. Period.
If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving an infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even considering if there are men on base. ~Dave Barry
by mambochicken23 on Aug 18, 2008 8:23 PM CDT up reply actions
I still disagree.
I’m sure mental makeup has nothing to do with anything.
Its funny, you spend most of your life gripping a baseball. And in the end, its almost always the other way around.
you can disagree all you like
the numbers regarding “clutch” hitting still prove you’re wrong.
If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving an infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even considering if there are men on base. ~Dave Barry
by mambochicken23 on Aug 18, 2008 8:24 PM CDT up reply actions
OK.. thats fine
and the dipping numbers for Lee suggest you’re wrong, and he’s not just fine and dandy.
Its funny, you spend most of your life gripping a baseball. And in the end, its almost always the other way around.
When your
OB% is down about .50, compared to that last 2 full seasons you’ve had, you’re not fine. I still think it all goes back to pitch selection.
Its funny, you spend most of your life gripping a baseball. And in the end, its almost always the other way around.
why are you being so stubborn?
I said his production is down. But his level of production is due to more than just his ability and his current performance. Luck, random fluctuation, etc., play a role in the numbers you cite (OBP, BA, SLG) over the relatively small sample size.
I’m citing numbers which indicate that he’s not far off his career norms in terms of hitting the ball with authority. This suggests that there’s been a bit of bad luck involved over the last couple months. Why do you refuse to acknowledge that?
If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving an infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even considering if there are men on base. ~Dave Barry
by mambochicken23 on Aug 18, 2008 8:28 PM CDT up reply actions
Depends
on what you call a relatively small sample size. 3/4 of a season’s stats are too small to tell if a guy isn’t the same? I find it hard to believe that Derrek Lee’s bad luck is the reason he has hit at average 2.5 HR’s in 2.5 months. Or that his OB% and SLG% would drop as much as it has due to tough luck.
Its funny, you spend most of your life gripping a baseball. And in the end, its almost always the other way around.
posted above, but maybe you missed it...
If you think about it, a 4% increase in the likelihood of a groundball only amounts to what, an additional 20-25 groundballs over the course of an entire season of about about 600 plate appearances? That works out to be appx. one more groundball every six games. It’s hard to imagine that this uptick would account for the increase in DP (23 this year vs. 15 all last year, already more than 50% increase).
So yeah, I’d say that it’s more likely that the generally high OBP of the lineup contributes to the high number of DPs that Lee has had. That, and probably a good dose of bad luck.
If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving an infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even considering if there are men on base. ~Dave Barry
by mambochicken23 on Aug 18, 2008 7:59 PM CDT up reply actions
Also..
as far as looking at what other players numbers in respect to being up or down in certain counts, would have to do a great deal with runners being on base, and who is up after you. With Aram up behind him, and having runners on base for him like they have been this year would just prove that he’s not getting pitched around. He’s not swinging at good pitches.
Its funny, you spend most of your life gripping a baseball. And in the end, its almost always the other way around.
That's amusing
That you want to cite this as evidence that he’s not getting pitched around, but still fail to acknowledge that the high OBP of the guys in front of Lee is a large component of Lee’s high GIDP rate. If there ever were a stat that is dependent on the other players on the team, its GIDP.
If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving an infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even considering if there are men on base. ~Dave Barry
by mambochicken23 on Aug 18, 2008 7:54 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm not saying it doesn't!!!!!
However he should be looking for something higher in the zone instead of giving in to the low pitch that results in DPs. Which he might get if he’s not so picky.
Its funny, you spend most of your life gripping a baseball. And in the end, its almost always the other way around.
I think it's worth pointing out also
that Lou’s mission to get a lefty bat in the lineup was supposed to fix this. Lee did better pre-Edmonds. I’m not suggesting that Edmonds is at fault. I’m suggesting Lou’s obsession over a LH bat has worked out well but absolutely not for the reasons Lou gave for needing it.
The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.
Sigh....
mambochicken23 = drewish …. in case you haven’t been paying attention at home. The mambochicken comes out of the closet apparently on those days when A.) Andrew forgets his password that goes along with drewish and B.) compelling argument is made BlueMike.
This fella isn’t right in the head.
sigh...
I’m not drewish. This is stupid.
If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving an infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even considering if there are men on base. ~Dave Barry
by mambochicken23 on Aug 18, 2008 7:01 PM CDT up reply actions
additionally...
I haven’t said a word about your comments on this thread. You’re a paranoid guy, Mikey.
If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving an infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even considering if there are men on base. ~Dave Barry
by mambochicken23 on Aug 18, 2008 7:04 PM CDT up reply actions
interesting. Methinks the sock-puppet-owner
doth protest too much.
Our 2008 Chicago Cubs -- FINDING WAYS TO WIN!
by drewishdrewid on Aug 19, 2008 9:59 AM CDT up reply actions

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