OT -- More gymnastics nonsense
by DaBard on Aug 19, 2008 8:46 AM CDT
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PrintThe federation of gymnastics must love this. That is the only explanation. They understand that the all-powerful American market will have, in general, three reactions to any event with an American gymnast.
1) The American kid got screwed!
2) The American kid won, even though they tried to screw her/him
3) The American kid has no chance. What else is on?
Clearly, Option 3 is not acceptable to gymnastics or NBC. So, we go for Option 1 & 2, as evidence by the uneven bars thing last night.
My favorite was when Al "The American Baghdad Bob" Trautwig yammered on about how some judges represent countries that have never medaled in gymnastics. So... only Americans, Russians, Chinese, Japanese and Romanians should be judges now?
I've having a harder and harder time recognizing gymnastics, or any judged activity, as a real sport. Yes, yes, these young men and women are absolutely amazing, but you know what? So is the Undertaker. So is Jackie Chan. We don't consider pro wrestling or movie stunt work a sport.
I'm good at fixing things. My award-winning work on the technical balk is legendary. I've got a plan for gymnastics.
1) Make the routines compulsory. So much of this garbage has come from whether a routine is harder or easier. Everyone does the same routine, period.
2) Get mean. You fall off the beam, bar, rings or horse, you get a zero. Knees touch the mat on the vault, or you go out of bounds, zero. Butt hits the mat on the floor exercise, get out. That will at least alleviate the "Chinese girl fell, but still won bronze!" nonsense.
3) MORE, not less judges. This seems counter-intuitive in a rant about judging, but the more judges, the less any one can overly influence things.
4) Give every home gymnast an automatic .05 deduction, just to account for the crowd effect on the spineless, corrupt judges.
5) Give Bela and interpreter.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
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Somebody will have to tell me if this is right or wrong
Did one of the Chinese girls fall on her knees after a routine or event and still win a medal over an American girl?
Missouri Tigers 2008 Cotton Bowl Champs
Yup
Went right to her knees on the vault. Won the bronze.
You fall… you’re gone. That’s the very next rule that needs to change.
But like I said, gymnastics loves this stuff. It likes the controversy.
Pluto will always be a planet to me!
Thats awful
I can agree to the if you fall you lose policy, to a point. In something like the overall competition where there is 5 or 6 events you can get away with falling. For the specific event where you get only a couple of attempts, if you fall then you lose.
Missouri Tigers 2008 Cotton Bowl Champs
In the all-around...
If you fall on one event, you get a zero for that event. If someone else falls on another event, he or she gets a zero. Everyone falling at least once makes an even competition.
My plan is summed up thusly… more judges to give everyone less overall power and less things the judges have to decide.
Pluto will always be a planet to me!
can of worms about to be opened
i agree with you, but….
doesn’t that encourage non-‘risk taking’? i will do the absolute minimum, therefore minimizing my chances of making a mistake. (there was a french skater, bayul?) who all the fans loved, cuz she took chances. the judges hated her.
in college football, i enjoy good games between teams in early september. much better than usc drubbing idaho state. but if you lose one, you can’t win the title.
falling on your butt should exact a significant price, but would enthusiasts be well-served by skaters (or gymnasts) taking fewer chances than u.s. presidential candidates?
Which is why you have mandatory routines...
Don’t let anyone wuss out. Make every gymnast do the same routine — you can change the routine from round to round, but everyone in a round has to do the same thing.
And you can put harder stuff in that routine.
Pluto will always be a planet to me!
Do you mean Ukranian skater Baiul?
Fukudometer: Created 3/31/08 Wrigley Debut 4/5/08 WGN and Japan TV Debut 4/6/08 Sun Times Debut: 4/20/08 Coffee Table Debut: 7/17/08 (http://www.wearecubsfans.com)
by Fukudometer on Aug 19, 2008 10:54 AM CDT up reply actions
Screwed?
Screwed implies some sort of vendetta or purposeful judging. Any activity that involves humans watching, judging and scoring to determine winners and losers is subject to failure. Hence, I find Diving, Gymnastics, and Figure Skating brutal to watch because there is no absolute.
It’s all very similar to the home run call in Houston. Umpires having to judge whether a ball is above or below a painted line in a split second are set up to fail.
I much prefer swimming, track, and ping pong as there is less chance for people to scream they were “screwed.”
Sorry folks, parks closed. Moose out front should have told you.
that's why it has 'around it'
but i consider golf and many track events to be events more than sports.
Yes....
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Aug 19, 2008 11:18 AM CDT up reply actions
Golf isnt a sport.
I like golf. I play golf, but its not a sport. I agree with the defense “rule”. Golf is like racing, except you take turns. Who can run the fastest or get the ball in the hole with the fewest strokes is more like an athletic competition. But being able to effect opponents outcomes, create strategy and require adaptation and anticipation. Different animal.
Reed Ballgame - best CF in the MLB
by californiachicagoan on Aug 19, 2008 2:33 PM CDT up reply actions
Here's what makes a sport
If the object is to run, walk, swim, pedal, row, drive, sail, skate, ski, ride or others get from Point A to Point B faster than everyone else, you’re in a sport.
If the object is to jump higher or longer, throw something farther or lift something heavier, you’re in a sport.
If the object is to cross home plate or the end zone more times, you’re in a sport.
If the object is to put a ball (or puck) into a hoop, net, side pocket or goal more times than the opponent, you’re in a sport.
If the object is to put a ball or birdie on the ground and out of the opponent’s reach more times, you’re in a sport.
If the object is to shoot more targets, knock over more pins or catch more fish, you’re in a sport.
If the object is to punch, kick, throw, pin or touch someone with a sword more times than you get punched, kicked, thrown, pinned or touched, you’re in a sport.
If the object is to do a routine and then wait for a nameless, faceless, easily swayed, borderline corrupt and historically inaccurate panel to tell you how you did, you are in a beauty contest.
Pluto will always be a planet to me!
Did you quote Carlin directly or just paraphrase?
Sorry folks, parks closed. Moose out front should have told you.
Carlin had a routine where there were only three sports
Football, basketball and baseball. It was brilliant, but clearly, I have broader horizons.
Pluto will always be a planet to me!
Forgot...
If the object is to put a ball in 18 holes with fewer tries than anyone else, you’re in a sport.
And yes, I consider golf, fishing, bowling and pool to be sports over gymnastics.
To be fair, boxing and wrestling are on the cusp, because of the judges having so much influence. But at least boxers and wrestlers have the ability — with a knockout or a pin — to end all debate.
Pluto will always be a planet to me!
DaBard screaming about rules
and how the refs should have more power. What a surprise.
- is priceless. “You, you start behind, because of a perceived advantage of being in the country of your origin, even though the audience is utterly international.”
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that 1.
should be 4.
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by drewishdrewid on Aug 19, 2008 9:07 AM CDT up reply actions
It was documented over and over last night
How the home team has an advantage. It worked for the U.S. in 1996 too. Even Bela said that.
Within reason, of course. I’m not saying British gymnasts are going to sweep the gold in 2012, but I bet they do better than they usually do.
Pluto will always be a planet to me!
Drew, at the risk of being the posting police, we can disagree without making it personal. I think dabard’s making an effort to get along and move past what happened earlier . . .
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Aug 19, 2008 9:12 AM CDT up reply actions
I'm not making it personal.
I’m commenting on what he’s saying, and how he’s saying it. Honestly, I’ve watched all of four hours of olympics; I didn’t watch the events he’s discussing. But it’s a template with him. Next up: How living in the US makes US Open Golfers more able to cheat. And then, “Sightline in Bulgarian Tennis Courts — The Sekrit Controversy”.
Gymnastics, like diving and ice-skating and trampoline (trampoline is a sport? o_0) have difficulty settings. It’s more difficult to do a triple sow-kow than a double sow-kow. Therefore, you start off with a higher difficulty score, from which mistakes are deducted. Do a triple sow-kow and fall, and you may still beat someone who did a double sow-kow perfectly, because you’re attempting a greater feat. It’s like the difference between climbing K2 and the mole-hill DeBard is trying to turn into a mountain.
You want real tin-foil-hattery, take a look at this: http://www.001ofasecond.com/
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by drewishdrewid on Aug 19, 2008 9:32 AM CDT up reply actions
Which is why...
You make EVERYONE do the triple sow-kow. You can’t do it, get out.
Pluto will always be a planet to me!
not everyone can do the triple sow-kow
the olympics are about rewarding ability. Your “plan” does away with that. It’s the socialism of the Olympics, the one place where personal ability reigns over all.
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by drewishdrewid on Aug 19, 2008 10:03 AM CDT up reply actions
FWIW...
… it’s “Salchow”, not “sow-kow”.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
:D
k. thanks. :)
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by drewishdrewid on Aug 19, 2008 10:51 AM CDT up reply actions
That's right...
And if your personal ability does not include the triple Salchow (thanks, Al) then you are not good enough to get a medal.
Pluto will always be a planet to me!
you've just proved my point.
people who can’t do it, don’t attempt it, and try to get a higher score with a lower difficulty quotient, by doing their moves as perfectly as possible.
It allows people of varying ability to compete to the best of THEIR ability.
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by drewishdrewid on Aug 19, 2008 10:51 AM CDT up reply actions
And if they can't do it...
They aren’t invited to the meet. Period.
Pluto will always be a planet to me!
yeah, because
let’s make the Olympics more exclusive and less inclusive. THAT’ll get the point across.
I remember, back when I used to watch the olympics all the time, there was a diving competition; one of the competitors was a thirteen year old boy from one of the north-african countries, where diving wasn’t exactly a deep sport. Because he was so young, it was important for him to not do head-down dives, so his dive was a simple tuck and roll and land feet-first. He had absolutely no chance at a medal; he didn’t even make it out of the first round.
But let’s keep THOSE people out of the olympics. They’re just not good enough.
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by drewishdrewid on Aug 19, 2008 11:48 AM CDT up reply actions
Whatever happened to the Olympics being for amateurs?
This boy’s story is the kind of thing I’d like to see more of. I’d probably be more interested in the Olympics then. But it’s seemed to have turned away from that.
The entire Olympics seems pointless to me when they have world championships in every sport yearly and some sports have multiple events per year. So then what does it matter every 4 years there’s a second competition you can compete in for the year? It’s just all blown out of proportion and extravagant.
The Olympics haven't been for amateurs
for decades. That went away a long time ago.
And I want to see greatness. When that one guy nearly drowned in the pool a couple of Olympics’ ago, I didn’t think it was cute or heartwarming. I thought it was silly.
He took a spot that a real swimmer could have used. Just as drew’s little diver took a spot a real diver could have used.
Pluto will always be a planet to me!
untrue.
and when professionals have joined the olympics, it’s usually be the US’s players — remember the Dream Team with Jordan and the rest of the NBA? What was the point of that?
But DeBard misses the point of the olympics, of course.
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by drewishdrewid on Aug 19, 2008 11:59 AM CDT up reply actions
I assume you're reffering to this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woYG6Uq6OVU
He was the best their country had to offer
It was a qualifying round
He won fair and square
Luckily for you the IOC called a technical balk on him in 2004.
You obviously have no idea what the spirit of the olympics is about, so I’m glad you’re not making the rules.
by dr stabbingworth on Aug 19, 2008 12:31 PM CDT up reply actions
The spirit of the Olympics
should not include a swimmer looking like someone that had been thrown overboard.
Pluto will always be a planet to me!
Are you freaking kidding me?
The Soviets and other countries were using professionals for a long time.
The entire point of the Dream Team was because a bunch of college kids in 1988 got the bronze while the Soviets and Yugoslavians sent teams who were already being paid professionally and got gold and silver.
The U.S. sent professionals to compete with other teams’ professionals. May the best ATHLETES win.
Pluto will always be a planet to me!
so...
we should emulate the mistakes of other countries, rather than stand up for what’s right?
The olympics are supposed to be about amateur athletics.
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by drewishdrewid on Aug 19, 2008 12:42 PM CDT up reply actions
And in THE REAL WORLD
It’s not.
Pluto will always be a planet to me!
and once again
should we stand up for what’s right, or repeat others’ mistakes?
I forget, tho, you’re happy to employ drug-addicts, just so long as they don’t marry your daughters.
WARS used to stop for the Olympics.
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by drewishdrewid on Aug 19, 2008 12:55 PM CDT up reply actions
Which wars?
1916 Olympics — Canceled because of World War I
1940 & 1944 Olympics — Canceled because of World War II
1980 Olympics — U.S. and many other countries boycott because of Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. Did you know that the Soviets refused to have the American flag flown during the Closing Ceremonies, as is traditional for the country who gets it next? The City of Los Angeles flag was flown.
1984 Olympics — Soviets and many other countries boycott, basically in retaliation.
Next?
Pluto will always be a planet to me!
you do realize that the Olympics
have a more than 100 year old tradition, right?
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by drewishdrewid on Aug 19, 2008 1:21 PM CDT up reply actions
And for 100 of those years...
There have been poltics, cheating, pettiness, bad sportsmanship and professionalism.
Pluto will always be a planet to me!
Please note
http://www.zimbio.com/Olympic+Scandals/articles/3/Top+10+Olympic+Scandals
Scandals from 1904, 1912, 1960 and 1964 are among the top 10 here.
Pluto will always be a planet to me!
My reactions on reading this.
1. The USA/Russia basketball game is only #10?
2. The Munich Massacre is only #6?!!
After that second one, any other complaint just seemed ridiculous. The only defense for it is that ‘scandal’ isn’t strong enough a word for what happened in Munich.
Before each game, please remember to feed the bats.
Yeah...that is kinda jarring
To put that on there and then NOT put the Atlanta bombing.
The real scandal of Munich is that Avery Brundage pretty much behaved like he wanted to roll the Israeli carcasses out of the way and keep going that day.
Of course, what do you expect from the guy who did more than any other American to make sure Hitler got the 1936 games?
The Olympic past is not pretty.
Pluto will always be a planet to me!
The ship sailed years ago...
Amateurism was all fine and good, so long as our amateurs were beating everyone else. But when the ‘88 team took bronze against guys who were playing professionally in Europe, or even drafted by NBA teams, that’s when the U.S. said enough.
It should have happened years ago. How many great performances did we lose because athletes wanted to be able to make money?
Jesse Owens was banned after 1936 because he took money to compete. Jim Thorpe died thinking he didn’t have his medals because he played semi-pro baseball.
Spitz could have gone back in 1976. Ali, Frazier, Holyfield, etc.. all would have gone back to compete in various years.
Can you imagine a 1968 Dream Team of Chamberlain, Russell, Baylor, West, Barry, Robertson, etc..? WOW!
The very best against the very best. THAT is what the Olympics are supposed to be about.
Pluto will always be a planet to me!
By that same token, we should let 50-year-old, 400-pound men in the 100m dash. So what if it takes them 10 minutes and they have a heart attack on the way?
By the way, you don’t have to make the mandatory routine extremely difficult. You can keep it at a level where many can do it.
Just so long as everyone is doing the same thing.
Pluto will always be a planet to me!
you have to qualify, of course.
but any 50 year old, 400 pound man can go out to qualify. Each country does it on their own. If he can qualify, he deserves a chance to run.
It doesn’t matter if they do the same thing. The judges are still individual people.
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by drewishdrewid on Aug 19, 2008 12:01 PM CDT up reply actions
Ah, so they have to qualify...
Fine, and the demands of the qualifier can be specific.
The point is to dilute the impact of the judges. More of them, so no one or two can throw things off. And fewer things for them to decide.
Unlike umpires, gymnastics and figure skating judges have a history of being hilariously wrong and flat-out corrupt. They no longer deserve the benefit of the doubt.
Pluto will always be a planet to me!
LOL!
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by drewishdrewid on Aug 19, 2008 12:42 PM CDT up reply actions
"But it’s a template with him...."
I think that quote makes it personal. But that’s just me. Your mileage may vary.
The only stats I care about are the ones on the back of a baseball card
by carmen_fanzone on Aug 19, 2008 9:44 AM CDT up reply actions
I'm truly not offended guys...
I will just respond to him as if he isn’t just disagreeing with me to do so. He and two other posters, who I’m expecting in this thread anytime, would argue that the Germans actually won World War II if I said differently.
Pluto will always be a planet to me!
Everyone knows it wasn't over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor...
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Aug 19, 2008 9:51 AM CDT up reply actions
The Germans?
Forget it, he’s rolling
Pluto will always be a planet to me!
LOL
Nice Animal House reference.
If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving an infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even considering if there are men on base. ~Dave Barry
by mambochicken23 on Aug 19, 2008 10:45 AM CDT up reply actions
All good ideas...
…..don’t know how you’d get away with #4, but I’ve long thought all routines should be the same in gymnastics.
The only stats I care about are the ones on the back of a baseball card
doesn't Gymnastics have something called Compulsories?
I thought it went like this:
1) Qalifying rounds (anyone below a certain score is out)
2) Compulsories (everyone does the same routine)
3) Free-style (everyone does what they want to do, using more difficult moves if possible to score higher) (there may be free-style short and a free style long rounds)
Certainly, this is how ice-skating in the olympics works. You have to demonstrate that you can do the basic moves, then you go out and kick as much @ss as possible.
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by drewishdrewid on Aug 19, 2008 9:36 AM CDT up reply actions
It still allows different scoring from different judges....
…depending on what each thinks is “kick ass”. I think that’s the point DeBard is trying to make.
The only stats I care about are the ones on the back of a baseball card
by carmen_fanzone on Aug 19, 2008 9:38 AM CDT up reply actions
It's even worse
There seemed to be disagreement between the NBC folks and the judges whether or not a gymnast actually DID the routine they were supposed to do.
I personally would go even further. Trampoline, which I hadn’t watched before, actually has the right idea. There is a boundary marker.
Put a square at the bottom of each bar or rings or whatever. The gymnasts have to be like skydivers. They have to land in the square. Take a step out, and you’re gone.
Scoring would be so much simpler if the penalties were clearer and greater. None of this “mandatory one-tenth” garbage
Pluto will always be a planet to me!
and yet
wrong again. Because different trampoline competetors do different routines, and therefore start with a lower or higher difficulty score to deduct mistake points from. Yes, they have to stay within the boundaries, but someone who does a very simple easy routine and stays within the lines can still lose to someone who does a very difficult routine and strays outside the lines.
And the NBC folks have NO SAY in whether or not a routine is correct or not. They are observers, that’s all.
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by drewishdrewid on Aug 19, 2008 10:05 AM CDT up reply actions
Which is why...
Everyone… should… do… the… same… routine
The NBC folks do more to hurt the credibility of the sport than anyone. No American loses fairly or wins unfairly in their eyes. The NBC folks are much more than observers.
Pluto will always be a planet to me!
yeah, I thought NBC was RIDICULOUSLY biased last night
I actually wonder if their coverage was as biased towards us as the Chinese coverage likely was towards China…they may have even reached that ridiculously high standard.
Also I like the idea of a compulsory round, it would make a ton more sense. And wow the arbitrarily set “difficulty” scores, which vary a ton from event to event and make no sense, are incredibly stupid. I liked when only doing something ridiculously hard got you a 10. Now I see 16.675 and think “I don’t even know if that is good or bad”.
I thought this was a great post by DaBard (which surprised me, I’m not gonna lie)- I don’t see the need for the trolling that is going on?
by Canseco's Roid Party on Aug 19, 2008 10:28 AM CDT up reply actions
It's drew...
What can you do?
Pluto will always be a planet to me!
no trolling.
disagreement.
Once again, I ask — is there not a compulsory round for Gymnastics? There used to be. There is for ice-skating.
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by drewishdrewid on Aug 19, 2008 10:52 AM CDT up reply actions
I guess there is not one anymore? Never heard it mentioned though
I do remember this also now that I think about it; at least I seem to recall it existing at some point- which would make sense because last night I kept thinking “this seems incredibly short for a medal? they just go one time on the apparatus except for 2 runs on the vault, it seems like it all comes down to the landing to win a medal.” it was kind of strange and i didnt like it as much as i remembered, although perhaps it is just the creepy chinese “16” year olds who are like 4’8" tops, and also the odd-looking Gymnast Walk. Shawn Johnson had an awful version of this. I would award the Most Humorous Gymnast Run to that guy from Poland who won the vault, he was hilarious and also it was cool how he was 31 which is like 2863962 in gymnast years.
by Canseco's Roid Party on Aug 19, 2008 11:06 AM CDT up reply actions
It's possible
they weren’t shown on the tape-delay version of the olympics.
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by drewishdrewid on Aug 19, 2008 11:14 AM CDT up reply actions
Did you see the German woman?
Who is like 35 and looks like Mitch Albom?
Pluto will always be a planet to me!
Compulsories are gone from figure skating for several years now
They do have a pseudo-required set of moves (not everyone has to do the exact same thing in the same order) and then there’s the free skate.
Remember back say in the 60’s and 70’s where they even had the figure-eights as part of the compulsories?
What I’d like to see done is after the flame is long-since extinguished and the flag of England has been flown, the US formally protest the age of the Chinese girls. Simply put there were at least 3 of them I saw that could not possibly turn 16 this year.
Sweet Lou for Mayor in '11.
not... everyone... can... do... the... same... routine.
which is why you have a difficulty quotient.
If NBC hurts the credibility of the sport, your problem is with THEM, not with the judges or how the sport is judged. You’re having the wrong argument with the wrong people.
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by drewishdrewid on Aug 19, 2008 10:53 AM CDT up reply actions
My problem is with both...
I have no doubt that each country has their own version of Al Trautwig. The harpies on NBC just highlight the bogus judging.
You’re missing my point. If a gymnast can’t do the routine, he or she has no business in the meet. Only gymnasts who can do the routine compete. And then you judge them on how well they all do the same one.
Pluto will always be a planet to me!
and you still get subjective results.
because people are, you know, people.
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by drewishdrewid on Aug 19, 2008 11:49 AM CDT up reply actions
But it removes a good chunk of the subjectivity
No more debating whether a routine is harder. No more debating on how much a fall should count.
Fall? Done.
Routines? All the same.
Take as many decisions out of their hands as possible.
Pluto will always be a planet to me!
whatever.
I have drawn the same conclusion as before — there’s no discussing things with you.
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by drewishdrewid on Aug 19, 2008 12:01 PM CDT up reply actions
Here is my impersonation of Drew
DaBard: “The capitol city of Idaho is Boise”
Drew: “No, it’s not! Idaho Falls is the true capitol. You don’t know what you’re talking about!”
DaBard: “Pearl Harbor was on Dec. 7, 1941”
Drew: “I am SOOOOO done with you. There is just no talking to you.”
(Four posts later)
DaBard: “Michael Phelps won 8 Olympics medals.”
Drew: “No he didn’t! You are wrong!”
Pluto will always be a planet to me!
when you start presenting facts instead of
whatever bizarre things you think “should be”, then you can suggest that other people don’t see the facts.
To date, that has not happened. Not. Once.
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by drewishdrewid on Aug 19, 2008 12:56 PM CDT up reply actions
From an observer who (until now) hasn't had any interactions with either player
DaBard: “I think apples are the greatest fruit!”
Drew: “I think oranges are better!”
DaBard: “You’re wrong!”
Drew: “You’re wronger!”
DaBard: “Jackass!”
Drew: “Blustering idiot!”
The. End.
"Hey! If the moon were made of ribs, wouldja eat it? I know I would!"
I prefer bananas
Pluto will always be a planet to me!
and I still think it's an invalid point.
again the Olympics are about individual achievement — that’s why even relays are all about the individual runs.
Being a judge means there’s subjective assessment. It’s been like that for over 100 years.
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by drewishdrewid on Aug 19, 2008 10:12 AM CDT up reply actions
Don't fix it if it isn't broke? Really?
It’s broken, dude, and has been for years. Subjective assessment in judging comes up EVERY single Olympic year.
And I have no idea what you’re trying to say with individual relays vs. gymnastics. One has judges, one doesn’t.
The only stats I care about are the ones on the back of a baseball card
by carmen_fanzone on Aug 19, 2008 10:39 AM CDT up reply actions
Every four years...
They drag this sport out of the storage shed and every four years, there is some controversy.
As I said, that must be partof the appeal.
But like I also said, it was fun to watch Hulk Hogan in the 1980s too. Doesn’t make it a sport.
Pluto will always be a planet to me!
they will never get this right
The scoring changed from Athens to Beijing and they still can’t get it right. You will never see the perfect “10” again the difficulty scoring is the way to go except you still have the human element involved ie crowd noise, host country you get the point.
These judges like our umpires and referees are very familiar with all of these gymnasts as they judge all international events. This is not dissimilar to say a veteran ball player getting a call that a rookie may not while at the plate because the umpire is familiar with the veterans plate discipline. Yes this is bogus, yes this happens all the time in football more often than anywhere else, where there is incidental contact after a pass and a QB gets clipped say Peyton Manning the ref throws the flag, but when that QB is say Sexy Rexy the flag stays in the pocket. The human nature aspect of sports will always exists in most every sport where there are referees and umpires etc.
As an aside the vault the Chinese gymnast fell to her knees on during the competition is named after her, which should never be allowed.
by becauseicare on Aug 19, 2008 10:41 AM CDT up reply actions
You're right...
The problem is, the Colts’ opponent has a much more legitimate opportunity to overcome a bad call.
Gymnastics is all about bad calls.
Pluto will always be a planet to me!
not always
True, unless that penalty happens at the end of a game or in overtime and puts the Colts in a position to WIN the game. That Colts still have to make the field goal, so that team cannot overcome the bad call. This is one of many examples of how the other team may not be able to overcome the bogus call, nit picking here really.
by becauseicare on Aug 19, 2008 11:13 AM CDT up reply actions
I said "much more" legitimate
You’re right, there will always be the call here and there that truly decides the game.
But for the most part, a bad call can be overcome.
Pluto will always be a planet to me!
That was Figure Skating
and I do not think they have Compulsories anymore because they really didn’t distingush any one person.
The judges aren't really held accountable...
…I think that’s an issue. They never seem to have to answer to anyone, it’s almost like these numbers are being handed down from somewhere else. That is the problem I have…
Brian McRae's 5 O'Clock Shadow
by PurpleLineToWrigley on Aug 19, 2008 10:18 AM CDT reply actions
This just in
Fencing is Awesome! :)
"What a great call! Your doing a fantastic job, but people expect me to come out here and be upset. So I'm gonna kick some dirt, you understand?" - Lou Pinella
So was doubles Badmitten
If the world didn't suck we would all fall off.
by carolinacub on Aug 19, 2008 10:34 AM CDT up reply actions
Those badminton players
scare me. That birdie goes like 200mph.
I also got a major kick out of the screaming discus throwers.
Pluto will always be a planet to me!
I love watching badminton
and when I tell people this, they laugh, for some reason.
"Years of academy training, wasted"--Buzz Lightyear (not a flying toy)
by spoiledcubbage on Aug 19, 2008 10:59 AM CDT up reply actions
+1
Reed Ballgame - best CF in the MLB
by californiachicagoan on Aug 19, 2008 2:36 PM CDT up reply actions
Could do without the premature celebrations though
where they try to sell the judge that they hit first. You have a freaking headlight on your .. well … head. Just let the judge do his job.
Reed Ballgame - best CF in the MLB
by californiachicagoan on Aug 19, 2008 2:38 PM CDT up reply actions
Greatest fencing scandal EVER
It’s actually modern pentathlon, but it has a fencing event.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boris_Onischenko
Guy rigged his epee to go off when he pressed a button.
Pluto will always be a planet to me!
YES!
Thats awesome…
"What a great call! Your doing a fantastic job, but people expect me to come out here and be upset. So I'm gonna kick some dirt, you understand?" - Lou Pinella
My other favorite scandal is the Press
“sisters”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamara_Press
After the 1964 Olympics, they instituted gender verification. The Press “ladies” were never seen on a track or field again!
Pluto will always be a planet to me!
You better hurry...
You’ll probably get a bunch of support for your changes for another week or so… after that gymnastics will be forgotten for another 4 years.
If you want to tackle an issue that hits home for many Americans, revamp the American Idol voting process.
For someone who dislikes gymnastics...
…you sure do have a lot to say about it.
Proud recipient of a hot dog shot from the Iowa Cubs hot dog gun.
I have a simple solution for all of these judges so-called sports, too
…like gymnastics and figure skating.
It’s called a remote control. Use it.
"Years of academy training, wasted"--Buzz Lightyear (not a flying toy)
by spoiledcubbage on Aug 19, 2008 11:01 AM CDT reply actions
And that's all I have to say....about that.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Aug 19, 2008 11:08 AM CDT reply actions
been waiting for this one to show up... :D
Our 2008 Chicago Cubs -- FINDING WAYS TO WIN!
by drewishdrewid on Aug 19, 2008 11:15 AM CDT up reply actions
A compulsory routine gets rid of the artistic aspects of it.
If everyone was doing the same routine it would be incredibly boring.
People do routines that are unique and accentuate their individual skills. I think this is what makes gymnastics interesting – you see guys like Pinheiro (I think it was him) doing moves that are entirely strength based (including one that no one had ever tried in competition before) mixed with people doing crazy athletic flips.
To me the only concern is reducing the scoring bias. The new scoring system is a step in the right direction. They should put the judges in the cone of silence as well – make them watch it on closed-circuit tv so they can’t hear the crowd and be affected by it.
You’re trying to turn it into something it’s not. Even if everyone was doing the same routine you’ll still have the same issues of judging bias and disagreement on who was better. You’re not really solving anything with that, just making the whole thing really, really boring to watch.
I don’t entirely disagree on #1 and #3 though. Obviously the new scoring system may need tweaking, and adjusting the deductions would help. More judges would, in theory, reduce bias, but given that they conference it could lead to increased “group-think”.
First,...
Thanks for the reasoned response.
Second, you’re right. It has occurred to me that this plan would eliminate much of the “I’ve never seen that before” factor. Gymnasts are constantly evolving. In 1972, Olga Korbut (I think) stunned the world with a backflip on a balance beam. Now, that’s fairly common.
Perhaps there is a compromise. Perhaps the gymnasts can do different routines, so long as they are all the same degree of difficulty. Or, they do three routines at each event. The routines are selected by the gold, silver and bronze winning countries of the year before.
If the problems were only the execution scores, I’d be more inclined to agree. But the problems are also on the degree of difficulty scores. The entire 2004 Paul Hamm debacle was over those scores. The reason the Chinese gymnast got away with a fall and still won bronze was over those scores.
The cone of silence idea is great. Eliminating conferencing would be good too.
I get that you want to encourage innovation. And you’re right, it is valuable. But to me, the system is broken to the point where that should be the secondary consideration.
Pluto will always be a planet to me!
See I don't think it can ever be a secondary consideration
That kind of innovation and “wow” factor is the heart and soul of the sport (or “athletic competition” if you disagree with the semantics).
I didn’t walk away thinking things were broken but they definitely need work. I think you just need to work on the scoring – reducing the bias in any number of ways (isolating the judges, removing conferencing, increasing certain “fatal” deductions) and that will solve most of the problems.
The Hamm controversy (I believe) predates the new system doesn’t it?
To an extent...
I think the Hamm controversy essentially introduced the new system. The degree of difficulty scores are there for everyone to see now. And I think there is supposed to more accountability for how those scores are created.
I could back off the compulsory routines if the fatal deductions were put in play. The problem, as some people have pointed out, fatal deductions will lead to less innovation because the risk will be too high for innovation.
Perhaps the solution is the requirement of the same degree of difficulties. That way, everyone is forced to take the same risk.
I do wonder just how much more evolution gymnastics will have. I can read the history of the sport, but I don’t know the future. Is a quadruple possible? Are there that many more innovations possible on some of the events?
The rings and pommel horse especially seem like they are static. It seems like the men are doing much the same routines there anyway.
Pluto will always be a planet to me!
This is what we get when the Cubs are off for a day.
"Dad gum right this games gonna be played under protest. . . I guarantee this is gonna be one protest that's upheld." --Hawk Harrelson, 6/24/07
Simple
They need to bring back compulsories, have a given set of minimum requirements for freestyle segment(s), then increase the number of judges to double digits, throwing out the highest and lowest scores at all times.
At any instance there’s a tie, they have a playoff (determined with a pre-defined set of rules) just like in other sports. Hell, there’s even an “jump-off” in equestrian.
This would apply to figure skating and gymnastics.
Sweet Lou for Mayor in '11.
Don't like what you see
change the channel.
Good luck Shawn Johnson, Lolo Jones and Doug Schwab. Bring home the gold!!!
So gymnastics is all hunky-dory?
Pluto will always be a planet to me!
No it's not.
Bu tI’ll still keep watching and cheering our USA team.
Good luck Shawn Johnson, Lolo Jones and Doug Schwab. Bring home the gold!!!
that and get PO'd when I swear Nastia's
routine last night was still the BEST (on the uneven bars).
Sweet Lou for Mayor in '11.
I agree her
routine was the best. She is one of the most elegant gymnasts I’ve ever seen.
Very happy to hear Shawn got GOLD today. I’m thrilled for her and can’t wait to see it tonight.
Good luck Shawn Johnson, Lolo Jones and Doug Schwab. Bring home the gold!!!
So, the solution to a flawed system...
is to stop watching the sport???? Oy
Pluto will always be a planet to me!
Dude, if
in all your arrogance you think you can change anything with the way it is scored now have at it.
Good luck Shawn Johnson, Lolo Jones and Doug Schwab. Bring home the gold!!!
Sue...
I’m sure you’ve seen this before. He presents a concept and argues and bullies with anyone that dares own a different opinion or worse, question his logic.
Disposable dixie cup drinkin... I'm hiding out in the big city blinking...
Oh I know....
most of us on here have the same opinion on him.
Good luck Shawn Johnson, Lolo Jones and Doug Schwab. Bring home the gold!!!
Argues and bullies?
Take a position and defend it against argument. If you can’t defend your position, you don’t deserve to have it.
If someone wants to have the opinion of, “Welp, can’t change it. Stop whining,” then that is fine. Intellectually lazy, but fine.
The problem isn’t when people question my logic. The problem is when I respond, people seem to get all offended that I would defend my original position. How dare I?
Pluto will always be a planet to me!
Hey! They could maybe let the gymnastics' judges determine the NCAA Football Champion too!
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Aug 19, 2008 3:07 PM CDT reply actions
No, just who gets to play in the Championship game.
Reed Ballgame - best CF in the MLB
by californiachicagoan on Aug 19, 2008 4:04 PM CDT up reply actions
Two things gymnastics remind me of...
Don’t get smart or sarcastic
He snaps back just like elastic
Spare us the theatrics and the verbal gymnastics
We break wise guys just like matchsticks
By Elvis Costello from the album, Imperial Bedroom.
The 2nd thing is Gymnasty by The National Lampoon Radio Hour.
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