Theriot's true value
by mambochicken23 on Aug 22, 2008 3:46 AM CDT
252 comments
Earlier in the season, there was a great deal of debate concerning one Ryan Theriot and his abilities as a member of the 2008 Cubs. I think that many people on this board (and elsewhere... my cousin and brother, out here in the world) have come to the opinion that Theriot is a good major league baseball player.
He's not.
I want to make clear that I am not a "Theriot basher." I don't think he's the worst player ever. I don't even think he's a "bad" baseball player. I just want everyone to know that he's extremely, remarkably mediocre. He's almost the definition of replaceable. Here's the breakdown, as I see it.
The Good!
1) He's got a cool nickname. 2) He seems like a really good teammate. 3) He's photogenic. 4) He handles the press well. 5) He gets on base at a very good clip, setting the table for D-Lee, A-Ram, Sori, and Geo.
The Bad...
1) He's a below average fielder for his position. 2) He is the worst baserunner on the team this year, with 13 CS in 31 attempts. 3) He's 28 years old, which means he's not likely to be getting better (I'd be more encouraged if he were a 22-year-old rookie). 4a) His OPS+ this year is 100... which means he's EXACTLY league average with respect to OBP+SLG. 4b) Speaking of SLG... he's slugging .371 this year. That's epically terrible. For comparison... Neifi! slugged .375 over his career. That's right. Neifi @#!)(@&$! Perez.
Theriot is merely holding down the fort at SS this year and letting the other guys pick up the slack. Which is fine, as it doesn't appear to be hurting the Cubs any with respect to their wins and losses. But can we please recognize the fact that he's not a good ballplayer? Can we please stop elevating him beyond what his skill level dictates he be elevated?
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
1 recs |
252 comments
|
Email
Print
Comments
You left out...
The fact that if they are stealing a base, he almost never catches it and tags them.
ernie81
ugh
I wrote “I think Theriot’s ‘combination’ to this team is intangible” as a possible answer to the poll. Because it’s really easy to confuse “contribution” with “combination.”
Ugh, what a dummy.
You look like you'd fit in the trunk of my car.
NON of the ABOVE
he is serviceable and consistent at it, same that Eckstein was with StL and LAA. He gets on base consistently which is important and gets out of what he can with what he has. As a MLB SS he is not above average, and would be an above average 2B with his best offensive year.
At 28 he has not peaked, 32 is peak year, just look at DeRosa for that comparison. That said the rest of the team and its depth allows Theriot to thrive in that environment and it is working. Cubs will probably keep the same lineup with Cedeno there to back up through DeRosa’s contract. I am hoping that the Cubs work on Fontenot this winter so he can play a couple of innings at SS and bring his better bat in the lineup.
I think the question is would you go out and sign Furcal this winter?
Piniella: "This is a tougher job than I thought it would be, I'm going to be honest with you."
32 is peak year?
funny… almost all the studies done on this suggest 25-29
by DartmouthCubsFan on Aug 22, 2008 11:58 AM CDT up reply actions
No on Fucal
I think you coined it best “rest of the team and its depth allows Theriot to thrive in that environment and it is working”. All well balanced teams have their Theriot. On a different team I am sure some of his short comings would be magified. Personally I like what he brings to the plate. I ride him out the next few years. While you do that, you better develope someone.
"You can't take life to seriously, you don't get out of it alive"
thanks
You look like you'd fit in the trunk of my car.
by mambochicken23 on Aug 22, 2008 12:45 PM CDT up reply actions
another key factor here
the cub fan in me loves the riot but the baseball fan in me knows his strengths/weaknesses.
the thing about theriot is that he is cheap! I’ve thought about this alot. Their just arent mlb caliver ss’s out there that are that much better than him. I mean heck orlando cabrera will be available this winter I believe. Do we go out and sign him to a 2-3 contract for several million? Do we go sign a defensive wiz that cant hit a lick? I think not.
cant remember if furcal is a FA or not at the end of the year. He’s a good all around ss. but do we want a big money player who frequents the disabled list? I think not. I believe renteria is a FA at years end. whats with a player that every team he plays on—gets rid of him. whats with that. what would it take to sign him? probably a 2-3 yr deal worth quite a bit. Theres just not many options out there. I have came to the conclusion that we just gotta hope onedec blossoms and theriot can hold it down until then.
from the mouth of Uecker:
"Am I the only one who’s glad it’s only a 4-game series? If was a 9-game series, I think the Cubs would win them all."
Lou will not replace Theriot with Cedeno
For the first two months of this year, Cedeno outplayed Theriot in every conceivable baseball category – not just outfielded, not just outhit, not just outran, but in EVERY way, Cedeno was better. He had blossomed. And even when Lou did play both Theriot and Cedeno in the same game, he played Cedeno at 2B and Theriot at SS, weakening the team’s defense simply to make the point that Theriot’s job was not going to go to Cedeno.
The only way to replace Theriot at SS is to acquire an All-Star or to wait for a new regime. And you’re exactly right – a good number of those “names” are more expensive and not much better all-around than what we have on roster. Rafael Furcal is the exception. He will be available although he has signalled that he wants to stay with LA.
The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.
Cedeno: Late-Inning Defensive Replacement
I don’t think it would be a bad idea to use Cedeno as a defensive replacement at SS in the late innings with the Cubs winning. I can’t see Cedeno being put in the starting lineup very often because The Riot is clearly the superior hitter. If they are going to be in the game at the same time, I wish Lou would put Ronny at SS and Theriot at 2B. Theriot’s really a second baseman.
"The big possum walks late." - Harry Caray
Riot is a superior hitter?
In 464 at bats, Ryan Theriot has 1 HR, 33 RBIs bats .315, .394 OBP, and a slugging percentage of .371.
In 159 at bats, Ronny Cedeno has 2 home runs, 24 RBIs, bats .277, OBP .339, and a slugging percentage of… .371.
How is the former “clearly” better than the latter?
Our 2008 Chicago Cubs -- FINDING WAYS TO WIN!
by drewishdrewid on Aug 22, 2008 10:06 AM CDT up reply actions
Because his OBP is 45 points higher?
What do I win?
Seriously, I think that Lou is handling this as well as he possibly can. Cedeno has been good in small doses, but he’s spit the bit every time he’s gotten more playing time.
Theriot is getting on base a lot, scoring a lot of runs, and playing an adequate SS. He’s basically having the career year that David Eckstein never had.
I’m not sure that you can take Cedeno’s stats and extrapolate them out to a full season and expect the same production. He’s had a higher % of AB with RISP than Theriot, and a full half of his AB have come with men on base. Theriot simply hasn’t had the same rate of RBI opportunities.
While his season has been a major step forward, Cedeno is going through a rough August at the plate, while Theriot has been pretty consistent all year. There is some serious value in an almost-but-not-quite .400 OBP guy batting before Lee and Ramirez. (Well, hypothetically, in Lee’s case, but the point stands.)
I certainly don’t blame Lou for going with what is working really, really well. 2008 may be the best we’re ever going to get from Theriot, but it’s certainly not time to be looking for major replacements. Going forward, the time will come to see what Cedeno can handle.
I'm talking about this year...
when he showed he had improved, both at the plate and in the field. And on the basepaths.
Free Ronny Cedeno
cedeno had his chances...
this conversation could go on forever…they are pretty evenly matched
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living." --Alvin Dark
by preachermancubsfan on Aug 24, 2008 1:27 AM CDT up reply actions
All I'm saying
is that it is clearly NOT CLEAR that Riot is a better batter. And taking his limited-time stats and projecting them is exactly what you’re supposed to do, I was led to believe.
Ronny has, in 1/3 of the opportunities, hit twice as many home runs, gained 2/3 as many RBIs, and has the same slugging percentage as Riot.
Our 2008 Chicago Cubs -- FINDING WAYS TO WIN!
by drewishdrewid on Aug 22, 2008 10:44 AM CDT up reply actions
RBI's don't count in this stat
They batted in different parts of the lineup. If Theriot was batting 6th or 7th more prominently he would have tons of RBI’s from all of his hits.
alright then.
he still has twice as many home runs, and the same slugging percentage. And those 159 bats aren’t exactly consecutive, and we all know about how batters are streaky.
Our 2008 Chicago Cubs -- FINDING WAYS TO WIN!
by drewishdrewid on Aug 22, 2008 10:57 AM CDT up reply actions
He's been consistent
Theriot has had a few games in a row where he hasn’t gotten on base but overall he’s been pretty consistent. And HR’s…he’s not a HR hitter. His job is to get on base (not get thrown out…that’s for a different discussion on here) but to get on base not hit HR’s.
My problem with Cedeno is his impatience. At times he seems like he gets it at the plate and can draw a walk. Then at an important pinch hit he strikes out in 3 pitches. If he can work on being more patient I think he would get more playing time.
when you only get to bat
ten times a month, I bet you get impatient.
Our 2008 Chicago Cubs -- FINDING WAYS TO WIN!
by drewishdrewid on Aug 22, 2008 11:41 AM CDT up reply actions
Or he just hasn't learned
Because Cedeno was just as impatient in 2006. He had I believe the lowest walk % in all of MLB.
perhaps that's true
but there’s no way to project that against 159 at bats.
Our 2008 Chicago Cubs -- FINDING WAYS TO WIN!
by drewishdrewid on Aug 22, 2008 11:44 AM CDT up reply actions
That's true too
But if Lou is looking for someone to get on base and he has a choice between Cedeno and Theriot he’s going to pick Theriot. It makes sense this late in the year. Perhaps next year Lou can give Cedeno another look that’s if Cedeno is still on the team…
Works both ways
There’s also no way to project anything positive against 159 ABs. His career stats aren’t meaningless noise – he had some legitimately bad habits which he may or may not have overcome.
He had an awesome April. He’s been less than great since then. At 25, he may still be the SS of the future, but at the moment, what we’re doing is working.
A-freakin-men...
I suppose Theriot has panned out, but Cedeno earned more PT early in the season but received none. If Cedeno made a baserunning blunder or error in the field, he was benched. If Theriot did something similar, he was placed right back into the lineup for confidence. I do wonder what would have happened to each of their seasons had the roles been reversed…
Free Ronny Cedeno
Maybe.
It never seemed like he was in contention for the SS job. You outhit and outfield your competition, yet personal preference is the ultimate factor in who gets the starting job.
Am I saying Cedeno would have been a lot better than Theriot if the roles had been reversed? No, even though I think so. He may have fizzled. But I just don’t understand why he never had the opportunity after clearly outplaying Theriot to begin the season.
Free Ronny Cedeno
Cedeno didn't outhit Theriot in April/May
Theriot was doing quite well in April and May – he had a 125 OPS in April (with his 1 HR and 6 doubles), and 106 in May – a .400 OBP during those 2 months, and was hitting pretty much where he is now, around .315 — I don’t see how you can bench a guy who is doing that under any circumstances. In all honesty, that could have an adverse effect on the team.
Theriot scored 36 runs in Apr/May, and Soriano was completely AWOL during the months of April. Looking back, Theriot’s OBP probably won us a fair amount of early season games.
Cedeno was tearing it up in April, albeit in half the ABs Theriot got – but he fell off the chart in May, hitting .225/.311/.250. It’s understandable that Theriot pretty much locked up the job at that point, especially b/c he hasn’t really had any terrible stretches this year.
When you go look at their OPSes
Theriot’s did not rise above Cedeno’s until June.
Now, if you want to get complicated about it, sure OBP is worth more than SLG, but at SS, defense is worth more than both. I’m not convinced, when you factor in defense and base running, that even now Theriot is more valuable than Cedeno.
The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.
Baserunning?
I dont remember Theriot sliding past the bag… on a walk…
One thing you learned as a Cubs fan: when you bought you ticket, you could bank on seeing the bottom of the ninth.
Joe Garagiola
by Ryan at Cubshub on Aug 24, 2008 1:13 AM CDT up reply actions
13 for 23 caught stealing
and more than his share of running blunders — running ahead of the ball hit to the left, etc.
Our 2008 Chicago Cubs -- FINDING WAYS TO WIN!
by drewishdrewid on Aug 24, 2008 12:13 PM CDT up reply actions
13 out of 31.
Still bad, but not as bad as you had it.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
fair enough
he’s still been caught more than Soriano has even attempted.
Our 2008 Chicago Cubs -- FINDING WAYS TO WIN!
by drewishdrewid on Aug 25, 2008 12:09 PM CDT up reply actions
For sure...
but it still seemed Cedeno was never in contention for the job. Had he been, perhaps Theriot would have had a few more starts at 2B?
I understand it was a small (april) sample size for Cedeno, but he also never received regular playing time while opening with a hot start.
And, as DGU states above, defense should be considered as well as SLG.
Free Ronny Cedeno
He didn't replace Theriot
with Cedeno because Theriot is a better player. Cedeno makes great plays in the field, but every time he throws the ball it could be in the grandstands. There is no arguement what so ever that Theriot has been a much more consistent offensive player than Cedeno.
Disagree...
everyone got on Cedeno in the past because of errant throws and baserunning blunders, but he did not show those tendencies to begin the season and seemed to make a large mental and physical step forward in his career.
Wait…everyone got on Cedeno last year because of bad defense and screwing up on the basepaths? That reminds me of someone…
Free Ronny Cedeno
furcal
would be an exception if he could stay healthy. but he cant and I just dont see the need in handicapping ourselves with a employee type contract.
from the mouth of Uecker:
"Am I the only one who’s glad it’s only a 4-game series? If was a 9-game series, I think the Cubs would win them all."
Exactly
At < $500 K, Theriot is a terrific value to the Cubs even if he is simply mediocre. Contrast that with Marquis and Dome, who are both earning in the $6 – 7 million range this season.
"That’s what I love about my skip, man. He’ll tell you that you suck...I know I suck. We know we suck...Yeah, we suck. But we’ll see who sucks at the end."
- Gary Sheffield
by DrGalazkiewicz on Aug 23, 2008 10:45 AM CDT up reply actions
in my eyes
dome’s contract isnt that bad. we get 2 things with dome. 1 being a gold glove OF who will eventually catch up with american pitching. 2- we break the ice with asian players so to speak and show them that chicago is a great place to play baseball. maybe in the future when another stud player like a dice-k comes along he will want to play here.
from the mouth of Uecker:
"Am I the only one who’s glad it’s only a 4-game series? If was a 9-game series, I think the Cubs would win them all."
by cubsluver22 on Aug 23, 2008 12:12 PM CDT up reply actions
It isn't that bad as long as...
Dome does CONSISTENTLY get on base like he did early in the season. Remember that this is the cheapest year by far and next season it goes up into the eight figure range. If his offensive woes continue next year, I believe the fans may turn on him.
"That’s what I love about my skip, man. He’ll tell you that you suck...I know I suck. We know we suck...Yeah, we suck. But we’ll see who sucks at the end."
- Gary Sheffield
by DrGalazkiewicz on Aug 24, 2008 10:26 PM CDT up reply actions
I actually think they've started to
I was at the Tues and Thurs games and the fans were less into chanting his name than I expected. This was my first game at Wrigley since April but on TV it seems like the ball-park always chants with the organ music.
Then again the Thursday game I felt had a quieter crowd than normal (until the end). The Tuesday night game was very loud though. I thought it was super cool hearing 41,000 chant “Kerry” in the 9th.
saturday
the crowd booed when he K’d with the bases loaded.
Our 2008 Chicago Cubs -- FINDING WAYS TO WIN!
by drewishdrewid on Aug 25, 2008 12:10 PM CDT up reply actions
Didn't hear it
I was on a plane coming back from Chicago. They had the game on XM but I couldn’t hear the crowd that well.
His true value
is that he gets on base at a better rate than any shortstop in the league. It’s true that he doesn’t have good range, or a good arm at SS, but certainly his offensive skillset is perfect for this team. With a leadoff hitter who has non-traditional skills, the Cubs need a #2 hitter who gets on base. They have plenty of guys who can hit the ball over a building. Also, as a #8 hitter, he’s not afraid to take a walk and turn the lineup over.
One part of his game that is confusing is his basestealing percentage. Outstanding last year, lousy this year.
"Enough foreplay- let's get crackin'"- Fred Garvin
Let's throw this into the mix
What if the Cubs had not traded Omar Infante to the Braves? Who thinks the team would be better with Infante at SS than with Theriot?
The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.
The Riot
If you look back at the World Series champions over the last decade, every single team has had a Riot. His value to this team is the heart of a champion. I think every team that wins a WS needs atleast one of these type of guys that “plays the game the right way” works hard and sets the table. I know it sounds silly but…
2007 – Pedroira or Ellsbury (you choose)
2006 – Eckstein
2005 – Podsednick
2004 – Damon or Cabrera
2003 – Pierre or Castillo
2002 and on and on and on
Fact is Soriano is a 3-4-5 hitter and Theriot is our lead off man. Seriously he is a pretty decent player, we can’t have an all-star at every position…i.e. Yankees, How many WS have they had in the last few years that they have tried this All-Star approach. All I’m saying is get off of Theriot.
What is "the right way" to play the game?
Is it “works hard and sets the table” as you suggest or is it more?
The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.
It's...
Anything that is intangable…doesn’t show up in the box score…i.e. hitting to the right side when a man is on second.
Do intangibles only show up in the positive side?
What about Theriot’s rally-killing base-running blunders? What about the balls that go past him (because he’s being played out of position), get his uni dirty, and start rallies for the other team?
What is so mind-blowing to me is that we have a guy who really does play baseball “right” in Kosuke Fukudome, who defends well, plays hard, keeps his mind in the game, knows how to do multiple things with the bat (not JUST hit to the right side, which is about all Theriot does), but because he doesn’t do two things – get his uni dirty and always seek out the tape recorder – he’s not the heart and soul of the team, he’s a problem who should be benched. Derrek Lee plays the game “right” but doesn’t go off telling people how he’s underrated and get his manager to call Clint Hurdle to have him put on the All-Star squad – instead, he says, “I didn’t earn it this year.”
I wonder how Theriot’s spotlight-grabbing really plays in the Cubs clubhouse. Do they just laugh about it, or does it bother some of the team? See, that’s the thing about “intangibles.” We don’t really know how the team feels about The Legend of Ryan Theriot. Lou is totally invested in it. Is the rest of the team inspired by it? Maybe. Is it a growing cancer? Maybe.
The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.
get his manager to call Clint Hurdle to have him put on the All-Star squad
Did Riot really do that?
Our 2008 Chicago Cubs -- FINDING WAYS TO WIN!
by drewishdrewid on Aug 22, 2008 10:12 AM CDT up reply actions
No
People who dislike Theriot on here exaggerate things they don’t know about. This is why diaries with Theriot are pointless and one sided on this board.
well
I don’t know what you’re reading, but I don’t think this diary has been one-sided.
Our 2008 Chicago Cubs -- FINDING WAYS TO WIN!
by drewishdrewid on Aug 22, 2008 10:32 AM CDT up reply actions
I'm reading
I’m reading the same diary that gets posted every other week on here….and it’s boring already.
Which begs the obvious question . . .
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Aug 22, 2008 10:39 AM CDT up reply actions
No obvious question
Everyone on this site has their own opinions. Many people strongly dislike Theriot as the everyday SS. Fine, that’s respected. However those people don’t respect others opinions who disagree and it turns into the same pointless debate. Right now this team in close to +30 over .500. Nothing is going to change about this lineup unless god forbid we collapse in the next two weeks. So this is why I don’t see the point of doing another Theriot sucks diary.
by ak123 on Aug 22, 2008 10:42 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
+1000
The only stats I care about are the ones on the back of a baseball card
by carmen_fanzone on Aug 22, 2008 11:03 AM CDT up reply actions
Respect
Look, to me, it’s important to be respectful to people in these discussions. I have strongly stated opinions and I’ll admit a certain redundancy in posts. But please point out to me any disrespect so that I can retract it or attempt to fix it.
The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.
You aren't the only one on this board
And my comments were not directed towards you. But please read this Theriot discussion or every other won we’ve had this season and you will know exactly what I’m referring to.
don't be a jerk
Why don’t you re-read my post and tell me where I said Theriot sucks? I’m just asking for us to be realistic, that’s all.
You look like you'd fit in the trunk of my car.
by mambochicken23 on Aug 22, 2008 12:50 PM CDT up reply actions
ummm
i dont think that it is a reality issue so to speak. would I rather have furcal—of course! but do we really need another employee contract for a player that is oft-injured? would we rather have a cabrera or lugo?? lock em in for 2-3 years plus at a crazy rate for ss’s that arent much better than the one were paying close to the minumum for?? at any given time we can cast theriot away like a bad habit and it costs nothing. you cant just cast away 20-30 million dollar plus contracts. hint jason marquis! when a “good buy” comes along I have good faith hendry will get a top notch true ss.
from the mouth of Uecker:
"Am I the only one who’s glad it’s only a 4-game series? If was a 9-game series, I think the Cubs would win them all."
This is where I differ
“At any given time we can cast Theriot away like a bad habit.” That, I contend, is totally, absolutely wrong. We can’t get rid of Theriot. Can you imagine the furor that would rise up among the fans and the media if Theriot was traded, let alone just cut as you suggest. We are getting locked in to Theriot at SS through Geovany Soto’s peak years. That’s why you have to get a contract for SS, to move Theriot to 2B where his defense is alright.
The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.
i'm not saying...
i wouldnt love to have a furcal as our starting ss, i’m just trying to point out the less than stellar health and ability issues from what will or could be available. I kind hope the ss texas has in the minors turns out and young is made available but thats neither here nor there.
for what theriot is being paid and the commitment level he’s doing great. let alone he’s still a very green major league player I mind u. this is really only his sophomore year so to speak. theriot wont be remembered for his high caliber play in 10 years but heck he gives 110% everyday.
we sure dont need a team full of prima donas like the skankees. he fits our equation for the time being.
from the mouth of Uecker:
"Am I the only one who’s glad it’s only a 4-game series? If was a 9-game series, I think the Cubs would win them all."
Exaggerated
Let me clarify what was poorly worded above. It was reported that Lou called Clint Hurdle to push for Theriot to be an All-Star. There is nothing that tells us that Theriot asked Lou to do this. I’d be surprised if Theriot did ask for it. When I wrote “get his manager to call Clint Hurdle” (which was poorly worded), I intended to suggest that Lou’s clear partisanship for Theriot is just as likely to bother the team as inspire it.
The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.
Lou actually did this, tho?
wow. I don’t know what to say, to tell you the truth. Is he THAT unwilling to see Riot’s deficiencies?
Our 2008 Chicago Cubs -- FINDING WAYS TO WIN!
by drewishdrewid on Aug 22, 2008 11:43 AM CDT up reply actions
Here's the link
at cubs.com.
What really bothered me about this report was that Theriot, if this isn’t a career year, will have more opportunities to make the All-Star team. Meanwhile this was probably Mark DeRosa’s best chance to make the squad. And DeRosa was more deserving among eligible 2Bs than Theriot among eligible SSs. And DeRosa, from my perspective, has meant a lot more to the Cubs’ success than Theriot. That Lou called for Theriot over DeRosa and over Ramirez stuck in my craw.
The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.
I think it involves...
…holding the skinny end of the bat.
Also, using a bat to hit the ball, instead of a very large fish.
Before each game, please remember to feed the bats.
This is just silly
Basically, you’ve looked at each team and listed the shortest, skinniest starter and said they are the same as Theriot. Every player on that list is a good fielder, Theriot is not. Every player on that list was a threat to hit something more than a single, Theriot is not. Every player on that list knew how to run the bases, Theriot does not. And none of those teams had a better replacement player sitting on the bench, the Cubs do.
Eckstein?
Can outhit Theriot…good one. Pierre…another good one…his arm from the outfield is putrid. Old man Castillo, seriously his highest season for a home run total was 6 in 2003…As far as the shortest skinniest player comment, who are you wanting me to compare him to Pudge Rodriguez? Maybe everyone on the list is a better base runner but do you think every single time Theriot has tried to steal a base this year was his choice…not a blown hit and run…not a go sign from the third base coach?
Wrong.
He didn’t say they all outhit Theriot. He said they were all bigger threats to hit for extra bases, which is true. Pierre can at least cover ground in the field, while Theriot can’t cover ground AND can’t throw. Castillo doesn’t have to hit homeruns to hit for extra bases, and I believe he and Pierre both had the ability to turn singles into doubles via the stolen base. Leon is exactly right…you simply picked the tiny fan favorites and decided they had intangibles. Pedroia and Ellsbury? You really think they were the Red Sox ‘intangibles’? Just because Papi hits homers does not mean you give the credit to the little guys. So we are supposed to blame Theriot’s baserunning gaffes on blown signals? Does that mean players with fewer CS’s are just not being involved in blown signals? Yikes.
I think Theriot is underrated by some and overrated by some. You are right, he is a decent player. But comparing him to other tiny players from past WS Champions is ridiculous.
Free Ronny Cedeno
Wasnt Theriot like...
27 of 28 on the pads last year? Maybe something is wrong mentally this year that has him hesitating? I love him as our short stop because he compliments Dero so well. Yea, its not an especially great defensive middle infield but the two offensively can play. As for the ops, slugging, etc… guys have their roles! We don’t need the riot to bop, we have 6 other power hitters for that! We need the man to get on base to be in position to score on the rest of the team’s strength. Especially if he can regain his base running form!
by fanofthegame on Aug 22, 2008 9:24 AM CDT up reply actions
Theriot's 2008 is better than any Eckstein year
He’s having, basically, David Eckstein’s career year. And Eckstein was a seriously overrated fielder. He was, essentially, a less productive 2008 Ryan Theriot.
Eckstein's Age 27 season had an OPS+ of 101
and Theriot’s stands at 100. And this is precisely my fear. Eckstein had one above-average year and then hung on to playing time off of his legend. We’re about to get stuck with the same thing for years to come.
The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.
I agree-
I feel great about Theriot at SS this year….but if he drops off at all he’ll need to be replaced immediately which will likely not occur. Now if we can get a couple more years like this one, I will be happy with him as our SS and that would be great- but his lack of range, glove, arm, and the fact that he has just enough speed to get himself in tons of trouble on the basepaths….all these factors mean that at his current OBP he’s solid and a big positive to this team considering $$, but if he drops even to like a .370 OBP he becomes a liability in a hurry.
Must say I’m shocked at how well he’s hitting, and his improvement in BB rate is the key factor in his success this year.
by Canseco's Roid Party on Aug 22, 2008 11:58 AM CDT up reply actions
I think
and I may be wrong about this, that Theriot has stopped trying to hit for power and has turned himself into a singles-only hitter.
The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.
To be clear
I’m not saying this in criticism, but rather in an attempt to explain how Theriot upped his OBP.
The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.
Furthermore...
“Fact is” Theriot is NOT our lead off man and Soriano is NOT a 3-4-5 hitter.
Free Ronny Cedeno
FACT
your Jim Halpert avatar beats my Jeff Tweedy avatar
by graceunderpressure on Aug 22, 2008 9:54 AM CDT up reply actions
The Riot vs. Eckstein
A few days ago I just told my dad (a huge cardinals fan), that the Riot reminds me of Eckstein except slightly better arm (only one crow hop before throwing) and a tad less annoying.
by graceunderpressure on Aug 22, 2008 9:51 AM CDT up reply actions
Oh boy....
Here we go again….
The only stats I care about are the ones on the back of a baseball card
Stupid thread
Almost the definition of replaceable? Please.
He’s 5th in the league in hitting and 5th in OBP. Yes, his SLG is very low. He’s not a power hitter. MOST MLB PLAYERS AREN’T. Among his peers (SS’s), no one has a higher OBP. No one. And he’s 7th in OPS, just .003 behind Derek Jeter and ahead of Michael Young, Jimmy Rollins, Edgar Renteria, and many others.
Yes, he has his faults. Find me a player on the Cubs who doesn’t though.
How do you win games? You score more runs than the other team. How do you score runs? You get on base. Is there a SS that gets on base more often than Theriot? No.
Theriot has been solid this year, stop complaining about him.
is there an SS that get thrown out
more than Theriot?
Our 2008 Chicago Cubs -- FINDING WAYS TO WIN!
by drewishdrewid on Aug 22, 2008 10:16 AM CDT up reply actions
Not sure
Again, he has his faults. The strengths FAR outweigh the weaknesses though. And it’s not particularly close.
And speaking of getting thrown out… it’s not really relevant considering that Cedeno is our SS if Theriot isn’t. And we all know how braindead Ronny suddenly becomes when he reaches base.
oh, come on.
That’s an old mistake. Riot got thrown out at third just last week.
I don’t think his strengths “far outweigh” Riot’s weaknesses. In fact, I think it’s exactly the opposite…
Our 2008 Chicago Cubs -- FINDING WAYS TO WIN!
by drewishdrewid on Aug 22, 2008 1:22 PM CDT up reply actions
An old mistake?
Cedeno has sucked and still does suck on the basepaths. What are you talking about?
You think getting caught stealing once in awhile and making an occassional bad decision on the basepaths outweighs having an OBP around 400? Seriously?
in 159 at bats
he hardly gets time to suck on the basepaths.
Our 2008 Chicago Cubs -- FINDING WAYS TO WIN!
by drewishdrewid on Aug 22, 2008 11:16 PM CDT up reply actions
+1000
also lost in all this is Theriot’s defense has steadily improved (statistically) over the course of the season. he’s now 12th in the majors in RZR (.832) among fulltime shortstops. Ronny’s RZR at shortstop is .811. Theriot’s out-of-zone plays are still in the bottom quartile, but I prefer to think of that as evidence of Aramis’ exceptional range. :) Theriot’s not Ozzie Smith out there, but like you said, every player has faults.
either way, great response kanderber.
by PrincetonCubs on Aug 22, 2008 10:20 AM CDT up reply actions
I don't know much about RZR, but I think I found out all I need to know
about its validity by the fact that Michael Young is so high. He is awful.
by Canseco's Roid Party on Aug 22, 2008 12:00 PM CDT up reply actions
AND
That was before I saw JETER in 3rd. hahahahahhahahhah.
unless it goes backwards with lowest being best. then maybe it’s decent.
by Canseco's Roid Party on Aug 22, 2008 12:01 PM CDT up reply actions
Be realistic
That’s all I want. I acknowledge he gets on base at a really good rate. I’m complaining more about Cubs fans’ failure to recognize that’s he’s a merely mediocre baseball player.
You’re a stupid thread.
You look like you'd fit in the trunk of my car.
by mambochicken23 on Aug 22, 2008 12:56 PM CDT up reply actions
i love theriot, i love soriano
please people, stop turning into yankees fans
stop complaining bc not EVERY player on our team is an allstar
please please please stop
this kind of post drives in-freaking-sane…..i wish i could “not-rec”
I love both Theriot and Soriano...
but we’re not turning into Yankees fans until we put quite a few championships up on the board.
It’s clear to me that SS would be our first position to upgrade (position player wise). It’s a position where you want a plus defender. We don’t. In CF, Reed Johnson and Jim Edmonds do a good defensive job. It’s the other position where you want plus defenders.
I don’t think it’s Yankee-ish to say that if we’re going to upgrade anything, it’s our SS.
That said, I don’t complain about Theriot. I think he “be what he be”, and we’re excelling with him. But, if anything gets upgraded, it has to be him.
I think this was the spirit the OP wrote in as well.
"Thank god I threw out my belt & shoelaces."-Bernies Mustache Wax on Evil BCB, 7/31/08
i agree
just frustrates me that we are doing so well and people still complain….thats where i’m coming from when i say yankee’ish….that’s all
and check my posts, i’ve said many times before i would like to see theriot at 2nd next year, he clearly isn’t a major league ss….move dero to right and fuku to center
Mark DeRosa
isn’t an outfielder. We HAVE an outfielder waiting to take over in Center. His name rhymes with Helix Nie.
I don’t think Ryan Theriot is a major league PLAYER. Put him on the bench with Fonty, bring in Cedeno, and give Ronny time prove himself. Not NOW. Next year.
Our 2008 Chicago Cubs -- FINDING WAYS TO WIN!
by drewishdrewid on Aug 22, 2008 10:46 AM CDT up reply actions
with that being said
and i agree with you about onedec, he’s had his chance….therefore i don’t feel bad for him
as in 2006?
eh. I’m not sure I count that.
Besides, it’s not about giving chances, it’s about what’s best for the team.
Our 2008 Chicago Cubs -- FINDING WAYS TO WIN!
by drewishdrewid on Aug 22, 2008 10:58 AM CDT up reply actions
Theres something to be said...
Think about this… with Theriot at SS the last half of last year and thisyear, the Cubs have made the playoffs already and more than likely will again this year… with Cedeno at SS the Cubs had one of their worst seasons in the past decade.
Sometimes its what the player means to the team, not what the player means to the stats on the back of his baseball card.
One thing you learned as a Cubs fan: when you bought you ticket, you could bank on seeing the bottom of the ninth.
Joe Garagiola
by Ryan at Cubshub on Aug 24, 2008 1:21 AM CDT up reply actions
As much as I support Theriot I disagree
There’s not much to be said comparing the 2006 and 2007/08 seasons with SS. 2006 was a lost year. We had pretty poor pitching, DLee was out for the season, and Dusty was being Dusty.
However, you can compare Itzturis and Theriot. I think there was a major difference in how the team performed when Ryan became the everyday SS over him.
wow. It must be so humbling
for Aramis Ramierz, Alfonso Soriano, Mark Derosa and Kerry Wood. I mean, they get to PLAY with Ryan Theriot EVERY DAY, and HE is solely responsible for going to the post-season in 2007!
However will he be able to bear the weight of 2008 without getting his uniform dirty… oh, wait…
Our 2008 Chicago Cubs -- FINDING WAYS TO WIN!
by drewishdrewid on Aug 24, 2008 12:15 PM CDT up reply actions
haha
LOL drew.
You look like you'd fit in the trunk of my car.
by mambochicken23 on Aug 24, 2008 3:01 PM CDT up reply actions
Great post.
Most ‘bashers’ don’t hate and constantly complain about Theriot (except, of course, when pressed), but we all realize that that is the one position open to an upgrade. Nice point about the SS factor, as Theriot’s weaknesses are magnified because he isn’t at second base.
Free Ronny Cedeno
thanks Bildo
You’re absolutely right.
You look like you'd fit in the trunk of my car.
by mambochicken23 on Aug 24, 2008 3:18 AM CDT up reply actions
yawn.
Not complaining about him… complaining about your love for him. Get real.
You look like you'd fit in the trunk of my car.
by mambochicken23 on Aug 22, 2008 12:57 PM CDT up reply actions
Where is the option for:
“When I look at the crap most teams have as a starting SS, I’m glad the Cubs have Theriot.”
"I see great things in baseball. It's our game - the American game." - Walt Whitman
or wow...he contributes alot...even though he has his downfalls
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living." --Alvin Dark
by preachermancubsfan on Aug 22, 2008 6:41 PM CDT up reply actions
His contributions are completely tangible!
He’s spent the entire year getting on base 4 times out of 10! That is a tangible, valuable measure of production.
and then, you know
getting thrown out running the bases. :P
Our 2008 Chicago Cubs -- FINDING WAYS TO WIN!
by drewishdrewid on Aug 22, 2008 10:58 AM CDT up reply actions
Sure
SS is one position where we could improve.
It is also ridiculous to think that we should run out a lineup of 9 all stars every day. We have more all-stars than any other team, yet we still bitch.
"This is an environment of welcoming, and you should just get the hell outta here." --Michael Scott
What I've Gotten Out of This
Point 1 – I am stupid because I think Theriot is a serviceable SS.
Point 2 – We like home runs. Home runs dominate. Players who can’t hit home runs suck.
Point 3 – .394 OBP means nothing in the two hole. We need home runs!
Point 4 – We want the Cubs SS to be a guy cut from the mold of Garciaparra/Jeter/ARod, or any of the great SS of the late 90’s, despite the fact that those players are few and far between.
Point 5 – Khalil Greene would be a better SS for the Cubs, since he should hit .300 with POWER.
Point 6 – It is Theriot’s fault that Lee hits into so many DP’s this year. If he didn’t get on base so often, then Lee’s weak grounders would only amount to one out.
Point 7 – We like power. Did we mention that?
Point 8 – We hate scrappy. Our Sabermetric books told us that scrappy doesn’t help us. Conversely, we hate sabermetrics, because they don’t account for scrappiness.
On the bright side, reading this thread kept me from working from 17 minutes, so that is a positive.
In the middle of a good time, Truth gave me her icy kiss. Look around, you must be joking. All that way, all that way for this? -Oysterband
by Ross on Aug 22, 2008 11:17 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Point #9
Point 9- Don’t forget to copy and paste Points 1-8 so you can re-type this next week when we have the next “Theriot is not an everyday SS” diary.
Ratio
I think we get 3x as many Theriot posts than Marquis posts. So probably before the Marquis as #5.
After the meldown today
that ratio could change again.
Oh! Oh! or maybe somebody could make a Marquis and Theriot suck threat. Just to knock them out in one fell swoop :-P
by chitownhawkeye on Aug 22, 2008 9:44 PM CDT up reply actions
LMAO
Nice work. I don’t think anything more needs to be said here.
"I see great things in baseball. It's our game - the American game." - Walt Whitman
by hip2bsquare on Aug 22, 2008 11:26 AM CDT up reply actions
did I miss something?
who the heck said anything about Greene?
Our 2008 Chicago Cubs -- FINDING WAYS TO WIN!
by drewishdrewid on Aug 22, 2008 11:44 AM CDT up reply actions
This was in general
All the points made throughout the season about Theriot that he found ridiculous and that I happen to agree with.
I did get a kick out of this post
although it doesn’t really address any of the things I’ve argued about Theriot. I also don’t think anyone thinks Theriot supporters are stupid for liking a guy who has hugely positive press coverage, whose manager holds him up for praise, and gets on base at a wonderful rate.
The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.
To be fair
I think the importance of extra base hits should be extremely obvious when you’re hitting in front of Lee (who’s obviously has a new found love of hitting into double plays), and when you’re a poor baserunner who gets caught stealing a lot.
+1,000,000,000
29 games over .500 and people still bitch about Theriot. If and when the Cubs win the World Series many of these same people will complain if it isn’t a sweep.
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
Not complaining
about Theriot. Just asking for some realism regarding his play. What’s wrong with you people?
You look like you'd fit in the trunk of my car.
by mambochicken23 on Aug 22, 2008 12:59 PM CDT up reply actions
Oh for heaven's sake....
…here’s your express quote:
“But can we please recognize the fact that he’s not a good ballplayer?”
And our answer is no, we can’t. The guy’s a good ball player. He wouldn’t be where he is right now if he wasn’t. Accept the fact people can disagree with you and move on. Surely you didn’t expect to start such a thread and not have people take issue.
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
Wait a minute...
What do you mean by YOU PEOPLE?
(Sorry, saw the Tropic Thunder commercial and felt the need to add the comment)
One thing you learned as a Cubs fan: when you bought you ticket, you could bank on seeing the bottom of the ninth.
Joe Garagiola
by Ryan at Cubshub on Aug 24, 2008 1:24 AM CDT up reply actions
Half of me hopes
That Theriot has a .600 World Series BA and gets the MVP just so half the members on this site bitch instead of celebrating a teams accomplishment.
You seem to be the only one bitching here
Get a grip.
You look like you'd fit in the trunk of my car.
by mambochicken23 on Aug 22, 2008 1:25 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm over it
Really I am. I said I wasn’t going to post in these type of debates on here and I did. So I’m done on this one.
I don't care if we sweep
as long as we win.
Our 2008 Chicago Cubs -- FINDING WAYS TO WIN!
by drewishdrewid on Aug 22, 2008 1:24 PM CDT up reply actions
By that logic people shouldn't be criticising Marquis either
Or really anything else, ever. Which is pretty silly.
well, i think this team should feel good to have marquis
many teams would like to have a 5th starter like that
and i do like theriot
and i do like this team
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living." --Alvin Dark
by preachermancubsfan on Aug 24, 2008 1:31 AM CDT up reply actions
theriot
seems to get on base a couple times every game. Thats huge to have a guy who can do that on a consistent basis. He’s not an all star SS, but he’s a guy that is key to this lineup. I do realize he has gotten caught stealing like 13 times, but wasn’t most of that in the beginning of the season? Whether he was running on his own or on called steals in the beginning of the year it seems that this problem has quieted in the last few months.
It came back
He has been picked off a few times. However earlier in the season I believe umps made some poor calls against him. Granted he’d still have many CS but not as many.
no.
he still gets thrown out on the bases stealing. Happened just the other day.
Our 2008 Chicago Cubs -- FINDING WAYS TO WIN!
by drewishdrewid on Aug 22, 2008 11:45 AM CDT up reply actions
get over it man!!!
yea, that is one downfall to him…as if cedeno is a better option at basestealing, look at past seasons track records. doesnt conpensate for his getting on base. why cant you agree that intangibles can make a difference? we could go down everyplayer on this team and find things wrong with them…just lket it go man, seriously. u say the same things over and over and over
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living." --Alvin Dark
by preachermancubsfan on Aug 22, 2008 6:54 PM CDT up reply actions
well of course I do
except when I don’t.
For instance, I used to think that Cedeno wasn’t worth a piece of warm bread.
Then I saw him play THIS YEAR in spring training. His ability blows Riot and his dirty uniform out of the water. He has better range at shortstop, a better arm, a better bat.
Next year, I hope he’s the starting short-stop.
Our 2008 Chicago Cubs -- FINDING WAYS TO WIN!
by drewishdrewid on Aug 22, 2008 11:18 PM CDT up reply actions
your impossible...
\how do you presume hes a better bat? and i bet next year if cedeno starts, wewill be talking about how horrible his baserunning skills are, and how he isnt a very good fielder. it is much diferent being a starter than a backup
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living." --Alvin Dark
by preachermancubsfan on Aug 23, 2008 9:32 AM CDT up reply actions
I'm impossible?
I think you’re getting a little worked up.
I don’t presume he has a better bat. The stats show me he has a better bat. He’s an EXCELLENT fielder. I don’t even see how you can suggest that he’s not. And if his base-running skills are as atrocious as Riots, well, then we’ve upgraded at least two aspects of the position.
Our 2008 Chicago Cubs -- FINDING WAYS TO WIN!
by drewishdrewid on Aug 23, 2008 8:58 PM CDT up reply actions
well, then the whole world is wrong except you, and a few others...
lou doesnt know what he is doing either.
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living." --Alvin Dark
by preachermancubsfan on Aug 24, 2008 1:06 AM CDT up reply actions
I'm happy with the company I keep on this issue
Lou knows what he’s doing. He’s making a different choice, that’s all.
Our 2008 Chicago Cubs -- FINDING WAYS TO WIN!
by drewishdrewid on Aug 24, 2008 12:18 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm not a big Theriot-supporter
and I agree that I’d like to see Cedeno get a shot at starting next season
I also agree that Theriot’s not the “future” at any position and this year is most likely his career year
With that said, why focus on this now?
The bottom line is he’s done his job better than any current options on the roster YTD and is probably the most probable player at that position on the roster to continue this level of production for the remaining 3 months (Yes Cedeno’s ceiling is higher, Theriot’s probability is more certain though right now)
I certainly didn’t expect this type of year out of Theriot so while I’m not in support of him being the sure-thing SS heading into next season, I don’t see why this is a big debate to have right now.
Is Theriot an All Star? NO
Is he the future? NO
Is he the most talented SS we have on the roster right now? NO
Is he the guy who deserves to be the starting SS the rest of the way? YES
move on.
by DartmouthCubsFan on Aug 22, 2008 12:16 PM CDT reply actions
+1
…well said. Stressing over Theriot’s value at this point in this particular season is really a waste of time. He is our SS and will be through October.
Save this debate for the hot stove
"When I got to Chicago, fans came to Wrigley Field just to have fun, now they come to see us win. The expectations have changed, for the players and for the fans. It’s about winning." Kerry Wood, 7/14/08
I ran into Theriot....
..at a grocery store during the off season and he told me to go f$*# myself and slapped me in the face. He’s a bad man I tell you and he shouldn’t be playing baseball with that attitude.
Quickly, somebody offer him a bridge
In the middle of a good time, Truth gave me her icy kiss. Look around, you must be joking. All that way, all that way for this? -Oysterband
heh
Well, I can see who the reasonable people are. Conversely, I can see who are the totally unreasonable ones, or maybe just people who have no reading comprehension whatsoever.
I’m not complaining about Theriot. He’s done a serviceable job. But I am complaining about Cubs fans worship of Theriot, given his mediocrity. I’m asking for realism here. I suppose that might be too much to ask for those of you with heads in the sand… or Theriot’s arse.
You look like you'd fit in the trunk of my car.
heh,
i dont see anyone “worshipping” him. i see people agruing there point that he is a good player, but has his flaws, and deserves the starting job at ss…there isnt anyone saying the riot—-our mvp, the riot—-all star snub, just quit trying to ruffle feathers. if you are here much you know everyones postion, or at least the points behind them. so drop it and move on
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living." --Alvin Dark
by preachermancubsfan on Aug 22, 2008 6:59 PM CDT up reply actions
Thank you, Oh Wise One, for helping us see the light....
I’m sure many will be relieved that they are on the Almighty Mambochicken’s “reasonable” list.
The only stats I care about are the ones on the back of a baseball card
by carmen_fanzone on Aug 22, 2008 8:03 PM CDT up reply actions
give me a break
Don’t be such as ass.
Is it out of line for me to request that the fans be realistic about Theriot’s value to this team? Does me pointing out the flippin’ facts of the matter make me this arrogant a-hole that you portray me as? And then, when people refuse to be reasoned with (I’m looking at you, ak123), I’m not allowed to be pissed off and call them on their idiocy?
I wrote this post as an attempt to be an utterly impartial observer of the truth of Theriot’s value to the Cubs. The whole anti-intellectual, anti-reason, anti-statistical horsecrap that so many baseball fans spout is completely wrong. I like your tagline… it shows just how little interest you have in actually understanding the game you claim to be a fan of.
And therein lies the difference between those of us who understand statistics, including relatively new ones that aren’t on the backs of baseball cards. I understand the game of baseball. If your tagline is accurate, you don’t. You’re a Joe Morgan-type fan: “If it was good enough for Tris Speaker, and good enough for Dave Concepcion, well damn it… it’s good enough for me, and it’s good enough for anyone!”
You look like you'd fit in the trunk of my car.
by mambochicken23 on Aug 23, 2008 3:17 AM CDT up reply actions
Wow....Me an ass?
Yeah, you just proved my point. You are an arrogant asshole. And judging from all of your 120 posts, you have been from the beginning.
I mean, just this line says everything about you:
“And, then, when people refuse to be reasoned with, I’m not allowed to be pissed off and call them on their idiocy?”.
Seriously?
I think that’s the very definition of “arrogant asshole”.
The only stats I care about are the ones on the back of a baseball card
by carmen_fanzone on Aug 23, 2008 6:49 AM CDT up reply actions
OK, both of you knock off the namecalling.
You can disagree, even vehemently so, without it.
Thank you.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
Sorry Al..
…won’t happen again.
The only stats I care about are the ones on the back of a baseball card
by carmen_fanzone on Aug 23, 2008 9:20 AM CDT up reply actions
man...
I didn’t create this fanpost to be a jerk. I wanted to reinforce the point that Theriot is a middling ballplayer. Does he have his strengths? Yes. Is he good enough for an excellent 2008 Cubs team? Yes. Is he GOOD? No.
When people choose to ignore the content of what I write and instead tell me to stop with the “Theriot sucks” posts, when I clearly didn’t say that… well, it makes me mad. And I call them unreasonable, which is true; acknowledging this is not arrogant. And then you come in and make an uber-sarcastic remark about my supposed arrogance, which also makes me mad, justifiably, I believe.
I wanted to have a civil debate about a player when so few of the debates had been civil, and instead had people ridiculing me and my post. Real nice.
You look like you'd fit in the trunk of my car.
by mambochicken23 on Aug 23, 2008 1:33 PM CDT up reply actions
but i believe saying that
4/5’s of the positive thngs about him are all snarky and smart ellicky things like "he is photogenic, is a bit of a smack in the face
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living." --Alvin Dark
by preachermancubsfan on Aug 23, 2008 4:14 PM CDT up reply actions
really
I wasn’t being a smart aleck. These are positive qualities for a member of the team. It’s certainly not a bad thing for him to be photogenic and good with the press. I wasn’t being snarky there… really.
You look like you'd fit in the trunk of my car.
by mambochicken23 on Aug 23, 2008 6:43 PM CDT up reply actions
you don't need to call me out
I already said I was done with this post. Get over yourself and your post. I never refused to be reasoned with. If anything I actually read the other posts and had DISCUSSIONS with other members on here. Drew and I came to conclusions on the post. I think this is more you than anyone else who has a problem accepting some of us have a differing opinion from you.
(fist-bop)
after a loss like yesterday’s, I’m looking for EVERYONE to be a hero today.
Our 2008 Chicago Cubs -- FINDING WAYS TO WIN!
by drewishdrewid on Aug 23, 2008 9:18 AM CDT up reply actions
With yesterdays loss
Remember in 2007 and in 2006 we’d be down by a run and a different member of the bullpen would give up 2-3 more runs to make a win seem less likely? The entire bullpen got it out of their system yesterday. In fact did Howry give up the least amount of runs in the bullpen yesterday ;)
faint praise
but sometimes that’s all he’s worthy of.
Today freakin ROCKED. And Marmol was barely used, and Woody didn’t even stand up, I think.
Our 2008 Chicago Cubs -- FINDING WAYS TO WIN!
by drewishdrewid on Aug 23, 2008 8:59 PM CDT up reply actions
That's good
Because I fully expect Wood and Marmol to be used often as I think we’re going to have a lot of close games against contenders.
Who would be a good replacement for Theriot?
Furcal like a lot of us wanted a few years ago? Neifi was obviously not the answer. Cesar Izturis didn’t do it. Who could we realistically get that would satisfy all of us and not break the bank or make Hendry tear apart the team he has taken so long to build. I think Theriot is just fine there. Sure he could make some more “web gem” type plays out there. I, personally, would prefer someone who shows up ready to play and doesn’t have an ego. I’d rather take someone with Ryan’s ability (which may be par to slightly sub-par) and have him play his heart out daily vs. some over-paid prima donna who loafs and spends half his time on the DL.
I will defend Cedeno for one thing
He made tons of errors in 2006 BUT he didn’t have DLee playing first base for a lot of those. I believe Mabry was playing first. While Cedeno made some bad plays, wasn’t very good at the plate in 2006 he might have made perhaps 10 less errors had Derrek been there to play defense.
Theriot's OPS
It’s actually seventh in the majors among SS. Ahead of Rollins, Tejada, Young, and Greene. I don’t know why people keep making this stupid mistake of expecting shortstops to have an OPS+ of 135. It’s ridiculous to compare Theriot’s OPS or OPS+ against the league average, particularly since his position is the one where a lack of power is most excusable. Compare him against other SHORTSTOPS and then tell me his offense is average. Here’s a hint: you can’t. Well, you can, but you’d be wrong.
Not saying he’s great – just sayin’ he’s fine. Oh, and Theriot’s OPS+ of 100? Throw it up against Rollins’ career and see how that stacks up.
by HereComesASpecialBoy on Aug 22, 2008 3:51 PM CDT reply actions
You're right in a very important way, but there's a wrinkle here.
By this point, even the Theriot supporters acknowledge that his defense is no good, which means that the pro-Theriot argument is based all on his bat. The question is – does Theriot’s bat make him worth the defensive hit? The fact that his bat is only league average becomes very relevant. Does his bat minus his glove make him more valuable than Cedeno’s glove minus his bat? more valuable than Fontenot’s bat minus Fontenot’s glove at SS (or DeRo’s glove at SS and Fontenot’s glove at 2B)?
You’re right on the one hand to compare Theriot to other SSs, but Theriot’s not really a SS, either, which makes a proper recognition of what his bat is and is not important.
What we’d need – and I’m not statistically savvy enough to do this – is find out how many runs below average Theriot is with the glove and subtract that number from how many runs above average his bat is – then we’d want to run the same numbers on Fontenot, Cedeno, and for kicks and giggles, Omar Infante. If someone did this, it might actually be a productive step in this debate.
The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.
Theriot's not really a SS?
Despite the fact that every game he’s played this year has been at SS? What does that even mean?
That’s like saying that Ramirez isn’t really a 3B.
Why not play Soriano every game at SS
Then he’d be a SS, too, according to your argument.
My argument is that Theriot doesn’t have the range or arm to play SS well enough to be considered a true SS. Sure, he’s been standing in that position. But Troy Glaus stood in that position for Toronto a few times – that didn’t make Glaus a SS.
Think of it this way – Alfonso Soriano wasn’t a CF. We’d played him there for several games last year. But he just wasn’t able to do it. Theriot, like Soriano, is playing out of position – in fact, Soriano was better at CF than Theriot is at SS. The difference is that there’s nowhere else to play Theriot but out of position, so Lou keeps running him out there.
The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.
Okay.
First and foremost, I think Theriot is a fine SS. Not great, not horrible. Middle of the road.
That aside, what exactly is your point? That we shouldn’t compare him to other SS’s? If so, that’s absurd. Whether he should or shouldn’t be playing the position, he IS a SS. Comparing him to some other position is entirely pointless. But just for fun, let’s see how he stacks up against second basemen. Again, highest OBP. And 11th best OPS.
Let me ask this...
Assume that Alan Trammell has a “come to Jesus” meeting with Lou and convinces him that DeRo is a slightly better — and more natural — defensive SS (overall, considering range on grounders, range on popups, pivot, arm strength, etc.) and that he should switch DeRo to SS and Riot to 2B.
Now, we have approximately the same defense at SS, and possibly slightly better defense at 2B (Riot’s weakness on popups would be negated by having Dome behind him instead of Sori), so this would be about a wash.
We would then be comparing DeRo’s bat at SS (OPS+ = 116) to Rollins, Jeter, Young, Escobar, Reyes, Peralta, etc. (The same “weaker glove than Rollins” arguement applies, but DeRo’s bat compares more favorably.) The comparison is closer.
We would also be comparing Riot’s bat at 2B to Utley, Uggla, Cano, Kinsler, etc. Riot is certainly a better 2B than Uggla, Cano, or Kinsler, but his bat is far inferior. So this comparison may not be as close.
Would the Cubs be better off switching DeRo and Riot? I’m not sure; probably not by enough to warrant an in-season switch. Defense is not quite so important for the Cubs, as the pitching staff leads the league in Ks.
Cedeno has a room in the Canine Hotel California adjacent to the one that Eyre just left, so I don’t think we can talk about him even for next year if Lou is back as manager.
That leaves us right where we began: Riot is the SS for the rest of the season and next year (unless Hendry can come up with a clearly superior option such as Furcal). When Riot hits arbitration, things will get more interesting, because he probably won’t be any better next year than he has been this year, but he will be much more expensive.
"I've never complained about it. I'm thankful to have a jersey." Mark DeRosa, 22 Aug 2007
Whether it is DeRo or Theriot at SS
for me the biggest issue is that I think a team needs better defense up the middle. If the SS, 2B, & CF are inferior (and I’m not saying the Cubs are inferior at all three positions), pitchers have to get more outs which leads to starters not getting deep into the game and the ‘pen being taxed. It’s baseball’s version of erosion – you don’t see it happening, but by the end of the season (or sooner) your investments have lost their foundation.
As for going into next season, we know, that as long as Lou hasn’t retired,
1) Theriot will have a starting job no matter what.
2) Cedeno will not be a starting SS as long as Theriot is healthy.
3) Lou will only move Theriot off SS if it’s an All-Star or Gold Glove SS with a rep coming in.
4) Theriot is more valuable to the Cubs than any other team, because of Lou’s investment in the Legend of Theriot. i.e. he’s not tradeable.
Therefore,
1) We’re most likely, as you say, stuck with Theriot going into next season and if this isn’t a career-Podsednik-like year, then until arb, at least, and probably longer.
2) Or, going into 2009, we have to decide between moving DeRosa or Derrek Lee, both actual leaders of the team who do bring positive intangibles into the clubhouse and do it humbly without grabbing the spotlight.
There should be a market for DeRosa and Lee. In either case, Theriot and Fontenot could end up being a nice unconvential platoon at 2B that will get few complaints from any quarter. If you move Lee, you probably move Aramis a few years too early to 1B and put DeRosa at 3B. Overall, there’s no easy solution.
The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.
Agreed that there is no easy solution.
Riot could possibly be a super-two this year (he will be at 2.118); otherwise, he will be arb-eligible after 2009. Cedeno is arb-eligible this year. Will he be back at $750,000? May depend on the owner and budget.
We’ve seen that, if Lou likes you then you can do no wrong (see Howry, Bob), and, if Lou doesn’t like you, you won’t play for the Cubs (see Eyre, Scott or Jones, Jacque). That means that Riot is Lou’s SS unless Hendry puts pure gold under his Christmas tree.
DLee has 2/$26M remaining and a NTC, and his .827 OPS is not especially good for a 1B; I don’t know how tradable he is.
DeRo will be going into the last year of his contract, has no NTC, has a .846 OPS and can play anywhere; he is the most likely to be traded this off-season if Lou wants to move Riot to 2B.
DeRo is the only one of the high-priced guys who doesn’t have a NTC, so if the new owner is a tightwad, he is gone. (Dempster might not be signed either, in that case.)
If Cuban buys the team and Trammell manages, I bet that they will look for a better SS and park DeRo at 2B (to avoid disrupting the MI so much) with an eye toward making Riot a super-sub.
The off-season has tons of variables:
1. Who the owner is
2. Who the manager is
3. How far the team goes in the play-offs
4. Whether or not Hendry is retained
For right now, I’m going to enjoy the 2008 ride — even if it is maddening watching DeRo get moved all over the yard — and worry about next year in November.
"I've never complained about it. I'm thankful to have a jersey." Mark DeRosa, 22 Aug 2007
Definitely enjoying the season
A few last comments…
I think Lee is still tradeable based on his reputation and glove; I just don’t know that the Cubs would be inclined to trade him, or even that they should be.
I don’t think Lou wants to move Riot.
I think you’re totally right about the Cuban/Tramm scenario. And I think #3 is a huge variable in what happens in the off-season.
The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.
OPS
Furthermore, OPS is a flawed measure of offensive production (it’s a neat concept, adding together two good things, but they can’t really add in a scientific sense because the units mis-match… so it’s only a coincidence that it’s as good a measure as it is). According to crap I read on the Internet while sitting in my mom’s basement, adding a point of OBP helps your offense about the same amount as adding somewhere around 1.5 points of SLG (or maybe it was a little less than that, but you get the picture). And in high run environments this is even more true (which is pretty intuitive if you think about it). So it really should be OPHOAPS (On-base Plus Half-On-base Again Plus Slugging), or OPHOAPS+ if you were going to install a compute farm in mom’s attic and adjust it for park factors and stuff. And I bet if you calculate that (sorry, no time, my mom is calling me out of the basement for dinner) Theriot would look even better than 7th.
If you also took the caught-stealings out of all their OBP (but not out of his SLG or BA because it doesn’t affect how well his hits advance and score runners) and added SB to SLG (but probably multiplied by a half, to account for that it again doesn’t affect how well his hits advance runners) he’d probably be worse than 7th. Also these suggestions are not backed up by any analysis suggesting that, for example, the 1/2 multiplied by stolen bases is the right number to use. Whatever. For what they pay him and how money they have invested in other guys, and what the going rate is for average hitting these days, I’m glad to see him in the lineup.
Seriously... even I, a proud Theriot supporter and the starter of many Theriot convos... see Theriot All-star and Theriot All-star part 2...
THIS THERIOT CONVERSATION IS SOOOOOOOOOOO OVERDONE!!! GO THERIOT! GO CUBS! GO LIFE!
"This balls got a chaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaannce, GONE!" - Pat Hughes
by SouthsideCUBSfan on Aug 22, 2008 11:50 PM CDT reply actions
i declare this
the lamest post ever!!! nothing was accomplished, the theriot haters are always going to hate…..they have to find something to do when sori isn’t making mistakes…..the cubs aren’t winning enough and santa isn’t real
can i bust out the dd title or will that set people off again?
whatever man
no need to be an asshole.
But you’re right, my post was TOTALLY anti-Theriot. I hate the guy, almost as much as I hate brussel sprouts. And my God, I do hate brussel sprouts.
On that note… Your lack of reading comprehension is absolutely deplorable.
BTW, I love Sori.
You look like you'd fit in the trunk of my car.
by mambochicken23 on Aug 23, 2008 3:23 AM CDT up reply actions
haha wow
the fact is we’ve had this discussion about a thousands times before…..you had no new interesting ideas on theriot….it wasn’t funny….it wasn’t creative….NOTHING…..definitely not worthy of a post
once again, lamest fan post since “how many night games are there next year”
mambo i'm just messing with ya
and you have the right to post anything you want…..the game threads have this theriot discussion nearly everyday and to me it’s old, but i understand how others may want to discuss it
callimg people an a-hole
(even though you were asks by al not to) and telling them they are stupid, isnt gonna get you any credit, or make you any friends. be reasonable please.
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living." --Alvin Dark
by preachermancubsfan on Aug 23, 2008 9:47 AM CDT up reply actions
tried to be reasonable
And then I got a bunch of people saying, “This is a stupid thread, this is the lamest post ever, this is beating a dead horse…” I felt like there was a dearth of posts regarding Theriot’s real value. Although we’ve talked about Theriot plenty, a great many posts were one of two polar extremes. I wanted to reinforce the position that the extreme viewpoints are incorrect, and that his actual worth is right between the two. And then, when I thought I did that… I also get a bunch of people accusing me of hating Theriot, and saying that he sucks.
But you’re right, it’s me that’s being unreasonable.
You look like you'd fit in the trunk of my car.
by mambochicken23 on Aug 23, 2008 1:13 PM CDT up reply actions
i understand that...
but why even have this post? you know everyones veiwpoint after all. and if you post something like this, then everyone is gonna give there extreme opinions. they are allowed to. dont call them assholes. u gave your opinion, they gave theres, even if it wasnt a “middle of the road” position like yours. ev eryone is just sick of the topic altogether
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living." --Alvin Dark
by preachermancubsfan on Aug 23, 2008 4:18 PM CDT up reply actions
OK...
What should we post in the fanpost sections then? I wasn’t calling anyone an asshole for disagreeing with me or having an extreme opinion. I was referring to those who disparaged me and the topic, or who took my words to mean that I am a Theriot-hater, etc. Disagreeing with me had nothing to do with it.
You look like you'd fit in the trunk of my car.
by mambochicken23 on Aug 23, 2008 6:46 PM CDT up reply actions
it is really just getting old...
some people dont like theriot…thats fine
some do like theriot…thats fine
some people arent completely sold on him but say “why mess with something that is working” that is fine
but if you dont want people to give there opinions on stuff then dont post stuff…i respect your opinion about what you think about theriot, and i agree with alot of it, some i dont, but that is fine. but i would expect you to respect mine, and others opinions that this topic may be just a little wore out, and rather redundant…
im not going to say it is a “lame” post or anythingbut i do feel, we all need to jut let this settle
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living." --Alvin Dark
by preachermancubsfan on Aug 23, 2008 6:52 PM CDT up reply actions
I really do, preacher
I don’t have a beef with you really. I respect anyone and everyone that is a respectful Theriot supporter, even if I do think they’re looking at him through rose-colored glasses. We should be free to disagree. Absolutely. I just want us to do it in a thoughtful, analytical manner, and not have strongly emotional knee-jerk reactions to pretty tame, mild criticism of a player. I don’t think that’s too much to ask.
If the topic is tired, well… perhaps not for everyone. I know that there hasn’t been a fanpost regarding this topic for well over a month. Game threads? I’m not always on them, so I can’t say. Not everyone can be on all the game threads.
You look like you'd fit in the trunk of my car.
by mambochicken23 on Aug 24, 2008 3:13 AM CDT up reply actions
theriot
why is it everyone needs this guy to be a superstar???he,s doing a fine job i think. not a great player but i cant play ss for the cubs so i,m happy with what he does.
+1
it’s the same problem you run in with marquis…..
it’s all relative and when you are surrounded by superstars, people start to wonder why aren’t you at the same level
i swore i was never going to get into another thread like this again and look at me ugh!
+1
I said I wasn’t going to get into this discussion too! Look at us, I think we need to make a truce to not get into these debates, then there will be no point for the same diary to be created every week!
sad part is
i think theriot should be playing second haha…..okay no more theriot posts for at least 48 hours for me
What I don't get
What I don’t get about Lou is when Theriot and Cedeno are both starting why not put Cedeno at SS and Theriot at 2nd?
The thinking of the Theriot sucks people is a big reason the Cubs haven’t won in 100 years. You think anyone that doesn’t hit homeruns sucks. That’s a big reason they didn’t win by not valuing OBP.
Go Cubs
what?
you’re blaming the fans for the Cubs not winning a world-series?
That makes no sense.
Lou doesn’t move Riot to 2nd because (we think) he’s making the statement that Riot is and will be the starting shortstop.
Our 2008 Chicago Cubs -- FINDING WAYS TO WIN!
by drewishdrewid on Aug 23, 2008 9:04 PM CDT up reply actions
That might be the most ridiculous post I've ever read.
Yes. Those bastard Cub fans from the 1970s overvalued the long ball. THAT’s why we haven’t won in 100 years.
Words cannot describe the idiocy of those last three sentences.
Free Ronny Cedeno
Theriot
One of the best quotes about him I heard is he is not the greatest thing since sliced bread but he fills a big need in this lineup. Someone who gets on base can handle the bat well ahead of the big boys and after Soriano.
I also think people do not want to admit they were wrong when they said he’d be lucky to hit 220 this year.
Go Cubs
they just cant let it go...
sad…he fills a need on this ballclub. and i dont think that cedeno would hold he numbers that he has up
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living." --Alvin Dark
by preachermancubsfan on Aug 23, 2008 9:50 AM CDT up reply actions
no way to tell
without doing it.
We know what Riot can do — hit singles to right.
We know what he cannot do — steal bases with any consistency, run the bases with any consistency, or play his position all that well.
What we don’t know is what the new, improved 2008 Cedeno that we got glimpses of in ST and at the very beginning of the season can do.
Our 2008 Chicago Cubs -- FINDING WAYS TO WIN!
by drewishdrewid on Aug 23, 2008 9:12 PM CDT up reply actions
Big difference between Theriot and Cedeno we can take
Cedeno’s first full season he something like .245 (prob. a little higher). Cedeno also had tons of errors. I blame a bunch of these errors as not having Derrek Lee playing first base for a lot of the season.
Theriot’s first full season he hit I think .265. Not too great either however he did lead the team in SB which helped pull in some big runs.
The big difference is Theriot really rebounded this year with his offense. Granted we haven’t seen September yet which will be a big test for him but he’s been consistent all year.
As others have said we just don’t know who would have a better overall performance at SS but one thing we can say is Cedeno had opportunities last year and dropped the ball on many occasions in many categories. I don’t blame Lou for not wanting to start him. T
amen...
he had his chance…
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living." --Alvin Dark
by preachermancubsfan on Aug 24, 2008 1:11 AM CDT up reply actions
Hmm... let's see...
Ohhh yeah. Couple problems here. One, Cedeno had 74 AB last year, hardly much of an opportunity. Secondly, Cedeno’s first full season was when he was 23 years old. Theriot was 27 in his first full season. So yeah, you think that might be an important factor to consider?
Did you forget, or not know?
Or did you consider it, and decide it didn’t help your story out, and so decided to omit the information? My money’s on this one.
You look like you'd fit in the trunk of my car.
by mambochicken23 on Aug 24, 2008 3:00 AM CDT up reply actions
couple of problems
1) Cedeno had 74 AB last year. Not much of an “opportunity”, is it? You’re thinking of 2006.
2) More importantly, Cedeno was 23 in 2006, his first (and so far, only) full big league season with lots of AB. Twenty-three years old, buddy. Theriot, in his first full year last year…. was 27. Hmm… you think that information might be relevant? Maybe?
Did you not know about the age difference? I think that’s pretty doubtful.
My guess is that you knew the age difference, knew that it was important, but also knew that it didn’t help your case. So you omitted that information, because your story sounds nicer. If that’s what you did… well, that’s not very ethical, is it?
If you didn’t purposefully omit that info, well… all I can say is you should follow your team a little more closely. Either that, or stop trying to pretend that you know what you’re talking about.
You look like you'd fit in the trunk of my car.
by mambochicken23 on Aug 24, 2008 3:05 AM CDT up reply actions
You're the type of person
Who makes going to this site not very fun, makes others embarrassed to tell their friends about this site, and finally just embarrassed to recognize some of Cubs Nation as Cubs nation.
I am done responding to your messages, I am only replying to everyone else on this board. If you respond to me, I will not answer. You don’t deserve to have myself and probably others on here waste our time even talking to you because you sir not worth my time.
um...ok...
Your argument had a fatal flaw in it. I pointed it out. I also pointed out the two likeliest options for the reason of this flawed argument. Either you neglected to mention important information, or you haven’t done enough research. Either way, you screwed the pooch.
And yes, I’m the jerk for pointing it out. Can’t handle a little snark?
You look like you'd fit in the trunk of my car.
by mambochicken23 on Aug 24, 2008 11:49 AM CDT up reply actions
Who the hell said that?
The average of the BCB community projections was a .270 batting average for Theriot. Nobody ever claimed he was Mario Mendoza bad.
Some
Some of the fans here if Theriot goes 23 for 24 in the world series they’d spend hours talking about the one AB he didn’t get a hit.
What’s funny is the love affair they have with Cedeno. There’s a reason ONEDEC is used on this board.
Go Cubs
Look, Here's What I Wanna Know
Are Theriot’s deficiencies enough of a concern that, in the face of stiffer competition during a short series, he’ll keep the Cubs from winning the pennant (let alone the division)?
"Sometimes I feel like as a Cubs fan if I’m not worrying about something, I’m not doing it right." - HalfBlindCubbieGirl
for all of you
who are whining about “having this same debate every week,”…. I just scrolled back through 5 weeks of fanposts. Not a single one of them were about Theriot’s playing ability.
So, yeah… keep up with the good work. You’re proving to be really on your respective games.
You look like you'd fit in the trunk of my car.
riiiiight
I have been in this debate alone about 10 times and so has halfblindcubbiegirl, sackings, cubswynn, and others I am sure. Those are just the people I was in convo with! OOOOOO and by the way… everyone loves Ron Santo right? Well today (the game that is going on right this moment) Ron Santo said how amazed he is that Ryan Theriot is about to break the Cubs record for multihit games (49) and the record is (55) HMMMM we havent had a player like that for a long time, it comes to no surprise now that we have guys like Theriot and Fontenot and Cedeno etc….. that are high OBP players, so wake up and quit being so pessimistic. The White Sox friends of mine are right, some cubs fans just cant appreciate when someone is playing well… this argument sometimes makes me ashamed that people are unappreciative of the quality of play Theriot gives us…..
"This balls got a chaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaannce, GONE!" - Pat Hughes
by SouthsideCUBSfan on Aug 23, 2008 1:53 PM CDT up reply actions
sounds like someone is referring to the infamous debbie downer debate
lol…..how do i even get involved in these things?!?
I've also been in this debate alone
I think 20 times…. That’s cool he can come close to breaking the club record for multi-hit games. It’s nice seeing him have a career .OBP year, DeRosa having a power year, Dempster having a career year pitching and being backed up by the solid offense/defense we come to expect from the rest.
you're conflating
a lot of arguments into one. That makes it difficult to respond to.
Our 2008 Chicago Cubs -- FINDING WAYS TO WIN!
by drewishdrewid on Aug 23, 2008 9:14 PM CDT up reply actions
that is just silly...
it is discussed all the time…in game threads, everything
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living." --Alvin Dark
by preachermancubsfan on Aug 23, 2008 4:21 PM CDT up reply actions
to be fair
it comes up in game threads rather a lot.
Our 2008 Chicago Cubs -- FINDING WAYS TO WIN!
by drewishdrewid on Aug 23, 2008 9:13 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't often follow in game threads
I usually watch the game on TV in my living room, which has cable. My computer is in the bedroom… so…
You look like you'd fit in the trunk of my car.
by mambochicken23 on Aug 23, 2008 11:35 PM CDT up reply actions
sorry to shame you
Boy, do I feel dumb. Thanks for putting me in my place.
You look like you'd fit in the trunk of my car.
I am sure your a good guy and all, we all have a right to our opinions
Just over my time on BCB my Theriot opinion seems to require strong backing, so I have strong feelings with my stance with him. Most if not all of baseball “experts” and analyst and coaches and players will take him any day.
"This balls got a chaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaannce, GONE!" - Pat Hughes
by SouthsideCUBSfan on Aug 23, 2008 2:49 PM CDT up reply actions
Theriot...
…has been exceptionally good at making the routine/moderatly routine play. He does not have the arm or range to make the electric plays, but you can’t discount the importance of not booting balls/throwing the ball away on the routine plays.
As a hitter, he seems to have made strides and if he finishes strong, his offensive numbers will be pretty impressive. As a baserunner, he leaves a little to be desired.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
How to write a mildly critical post about Ryan Theriot without getting mobbed. (For the general benefit of BCB.)
1a. Meditate on the Cubs winning record…
1b. …and on Cubs.com pieces which constantly mention Theriot’s role in that record.
2. Consider the greatness of Lou. Remember that you… are… not… Lou. Cast your concerns on Lou.
3. Take a deep breath.
4. Examine your heart. Is it filled with hatred? If not, skip to 5.
4b. If your heart is filled with hatred return to step 1a and do steps 1-3, skipping step 1b, which may be the cause of your anger. If your anger has subsided, skip to 5.
4c. If your heart is still filled with hatred, attempt to purge that hatred by self-flagellation, i.e. watching Steve Trachsel starts for the Mets in slow motion or listening to Joe Morgan transcripts of Cubs games without the actual gamecast.
5. Repeat this mantra 5 times: “Ryan Theriot does all the little things right.”
5b. If you were tempted to add “… except baserunning and fielding,” repeat the mantra 5 times for each temptation until the temptation dares not show its beastly head.
6. Cleanse from your mind the thought that Ronny Cedeno exists.
7. Cleanse from your mind the thought that DeRosa could play SS and Fontenot 2B.
8. Do you still have something mildly critical to post about Ryan Theriot? If so, repeats steps 1-7 three more times. If the mildly critical thought persists, continue to step 9.
9. Consider posting on Bizarro BCB so as not to unduly burden your fellow Cub fans. Do you still feel the need to post? If so, continue to 10.
10. Write your thoughts down.
11. Delete them.
12. Do you still have your thoughts? If so, repeat steps 10-11 23 times, asking yourself each time what Ryne Sandberg would want you to do.
13. Look over your post. What could be misconstrued? Make at least seven qualifications for each assertion.
14. Write a three paragraph explanation for why a post might be useful. Submit it to Theriot’s publicist, so that he can send out talking points.
15. Edit your post so that the name “Ryan Theriot” is replaced by any of the following: “Kosuke Fukudome,” “Derrek Lee,” “Alfonso Soriano.” This is the only thing you can do to avoid getting mobbed.
16. Recheck so that no reference to Ryan Theriot remains. Specifically delete any derivatives of the word “scrap.”
17. Post.
18. Notify your bretheren in the secret Conspiracy Against Ryan Theriot & Everything Lovable, so that they can hold off their posts for at least 6 more days.
The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.
LOL!
Awesome. That’s great. I’m glad you took the time (probably a significant amount) to share that with us :-)
You look like you'd fit in the trunk of my car.
by mambochicken23 on Aug 23, 2008 6:49 PM CDT up reply actions
Of for crying out loud
My response to you is buried much farther up ahead, so I’m going to repeat it here.:
…here’s your express quote:
"But can we please recognize the fact that he’s not a good ballplayer?"
And our answer is no, we can’t. The guy’s a good ball player. He wouldn’t be where he is right now if he wasn’t. Accept the fact people can disagree with you and move on. Surely you didn’t expect to start such a thread and not have people take issue.
So allow me to add:
All I’ve read from you are insults to other posters, calling them a-holes, ignorant, questioning their reading comprehension and the like. Did you really think you’d get 100% agreement here? Give us a break. You posted an opinion, Not everyone is on board. Such is life.
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
faulty reasoning
Saying that he’s “a good ballplayer [because] he wouldn’t be where he is right now if he wasn’t” is faulty logic sir. Have you checked lately on whether Darin Erstad has a job? How about Scot Podsednik? How about Howry? Corey Patterson? Being on a major league team, or even having a regular job on it, doesn’t say much about whether you’re worth a rat’s ass. Relative to other players, he is not “good.” Nor is he “bad.” He is middling. He is ok. He is the margarine of “good.” The Diet Coke of “good.” Etc.
As for me insulting anyone… I’ve only insulted those people who have fired at me first. I have absolutely no problem with people disagreeing with me on this topic. But those people who call the post “stupid,” "lame, " or call me arrogant, or a Theriot-hater…. yeah, they deserve it. I don’t have any respect for people like that. Should I?
You look like you'd fit in the trunk of my car.
by mambochicken23 on Aug 23, 2008 11:54 PM CDT up reply actions
Perhaps not. But you should have respect for yourself.
By only insulting people because they fired at you first… well, aren’t you basically bringing yourself down to their level – at least from your perspective?
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
that's fair
you’re probably right.
You look like you'd fit in the trunk of my car.
by mambochicken23 on Aug 24, 2008 2:43 AM CDT up reply actions
saying the topic of a post is stupid...
is NOT AN INSULT TO YOU!!! it is someones opinion about the subject. they arent calling you stupid.
if a say something stupid in a game thread and someone “fails” or “-1s” me or something likewise, im not going to go off on a tangent.
one day ater we won i posted a flashing picture that hurt a couple peoples eyes or something liek that. they said that that picture sucked. i didnt go awol and get pissy about it.
get over it that someone doesnt agree with you about who the starting SS should be. its not liek we’re campaigning for or against abortion or something likewise
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living." --Alvin Dark
by preachermancubsfan on Aug 24, 2008 1:19 AM CDT up reply actions
for the last time
I am not upset with anyone who simply disagrees with me about Theriot’s worth. Really, I’m not. However, I get really aggravated when people boil down what I thought was a legit, thoughtful post… and a perspective that I have found lacking around here… when they boil it down to, “This is stupid. Why do you hate Theriot? I hope that he single-handedly cures AIDS so that I can come on here and watch you bitch about how he hasn’t cured cancer.” That’s ridiculous, and unfair, and it’s really, really, really annoying.
BTW, could you point me in the direction where I said anything about who the starting SS should be other than Theriot? Please? I’d love to know where I wrote that… because I don’t remember that at all.
Which is exactly my point. You read what I wrote about Theriot and imposed your own stereotypic view about what I was actually saying. You read the post and somehow, out of thin air, came up with something that I never, ever wrote. That’s what makes me mad.
Really, I just want people to a) be fair, and b) be smarter and/or better readers.
You look like you'd fit in the trunk of my car.
by mambochicken23 on Aug 24, 2008 2:52 AM CDT up reply actions
when you post you open yourself up to criticism (ask al)
and if i think it’s a lame post, i’m gonna tell you……but preacher makes a good point, it’s not a direct slam on you, just your post…..but what would be a direct slam on you is what i think about you now, seeing how you’ve reacted to criticism
I get you think all these things......
…. it’s just that I don’t agree. Or give a rat’s ass, as you put it.
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
Theriot = 12th Best Fantasy Shortstop this year
This certainly doesn’t make him a study, but in the upper third of the league. I’ll take that. Hopefully his power develops a little as he ages — most do get better here.
theres a fresh perspective
i likes…
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living." --Alvin Dark
by preachermancubsfan on Aug 24, 2008 1:20 AM CDT up reply actions
Hmm...
How’s that compared to starting SS? Because 12th (out of 30 teams, total) isn’t in the upper third. It’s in the middle third. Which is what I’ve been trying to say.
You look like you'd fit in the trunk of my car.
by mambochicken23 on Aug 24, 2008 2:54 AM CDT up reply actions
So.......
…..in other words, “Hey everyone, Theriot is an average player!”
What a revelation. And if true, I see nothing wrong with Theriot being average. They can’t all be mega-million superstars.
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
you see the results of the poll up there?
Apparently, it is a revelation to many on this board. Or it could be.
You look like you'd fit in the trunk of my car.
by mambochicken23 on Aug 24, 2008 11:52 AM CDT up reply actions
hey bro...
if it is any consolation i voted for option #2 that would be the same as “hes an average player, that contributes to this team winning right??”
well, anyways. i think im gonna sign off on this post. you never got snarky or really was a jerk to me. i appreciate that. i kinda wanted to take the middle of the road on this issue too. im not exactly sworn to any “side” though, if i had to choose, theriot is our guy
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living." --Alvin Dark
by preachermancubsfan on Aug 24, 2008 12:00 PM CDT up reply actions
I see only 18% think you're right
Is that what you mean?
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
that was what I meant by "it could be"
You look like you'd fit in the trunk of my car.
by mambochicken23 on Aug 24, 2008 3:03 PM CDT up reply actions
Here's what I take the poll to mean:
18% of BCB poll-takers who read this fanpost believe Theriot’s value is neutral, that is to say that his OBP and any other positive you believe he has is cancelled out by everything else he brings as a player. Since I voted in that category, what it meant for me is that I believe Theriot gives up as many outs on the field as he avoids by his high OBP minus his baserunning gaffes.
53% believe Theriot’s intangibles carry his measureable value over from neutral to positive.
26% believe Theriot is more than just intangible – he’s “great.” That number isn’t surprising to me at all since Theriot was so high in the All-Star voting. I believe that if this poll was done in the more general Cub fan audience, this choice would be over 50%.
Finally, only 4 people are willing to say that Theriot’s value is negative. I wish all the people who are so quick to call Theriot criticism “hatred” would burn that number into their memories. There are only 4 people here who are willing to call Theriot “awful.” Theriot “hatred” is hardly rampant.
Also, what really astounds me about this poll, (and I found the poll extremely interesting), is that greater than half of the people taking it came in on the “Intangible” side. Now, I’m not one to discout Intangibles. But maybe I want to overdefine Intangibles. For example, I’ll buy in to the idea that Dome’s patience has had a small effect on the rest of the team (an effect that’s been cumulative with Perry’s coaching). I totally believe sound baserunning and fundamentals add up over the course of the season. I think fielding is hard to measure but has a huge impact on the game. And I believe hard working players are great to watch.
The problem is that I really don’t see half the “Intangibles” in Theriot that I see in DeRosa, Fukudome, DLee, and others. And I actually see in him some negative “Intangibles” that I’d sum up as a general sloppiness once he’s out of the batter’s box.
Anyway, it seems to me that this subject is so overcharged that people on both sides are likely to misread one another and then overreact. It’s a shame. We’re all Cub fans.
The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.
perhaps Derosa's intangibles are overlooked because
he has more tangibles. If theriot was hitting 18 home runs, maybe we wouldn’t be talking about his intangibles as much.
But long story short, screw it. I’ll take anybody that gets on base twice a game on my team.
"Enough foreplay- let's get crackin'"- Fred Garvin
No one should try to underestimate the value
of Theriot’s OBP. OBPs over .365 are rare. OBPs over .350 in middle IFs are even more rare.
That said, what DeRosa brings to this team as not only a middle IF but also a utility man is absolutely astounding.
The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.
Couldn't agree more
especially for someone that I thought was pretty much a one-year wonder with Texas when he signed.
"Enough foreplay- let's get crackin'"- Fred Garvin
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
Related FanPosts on Bleed Cubbie Blue
Related FanShots on Bleed Cubbie Blue
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
FanShots
Quick hits of video, photos, quotes, chats, links and lists that you find around the web.
Recommended FanShots
Recent FanShots
Cubs By The Numbers
Cubs By The Numbers is a history of the ballclub by uniform number, but the biographies help trace the history of our beloved team in a new way. For everyone who's a Cubs fan, anyone who ever wore the uniform is like family. Cubs By The Numbers reintroduces readers to some of their long-lost ancestors, even ones they think they already know.
Click here to order your copy, available now!
Certain photos copyright © 2010 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
