Discussing Zambrano
I want to open up this thread for a discussion on big Z's recent troubles. I have yet to find any official word on whether anything is bothering him physically. I heard a short discussion on the Cubs pre-game today where it was said his velocity was down in the 88-90 range last night. It was also obvious that his breaking pitches did not have their usual movement.
This has been the case for Z's last 4 or 5 starts I believe. I was hoping that people would post any news or information that they have found regarding Z. I really hope that he works this out sooner rather than later.
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A quote about and from Zambrano
found here.
‘’I have to eliminate August. Once I get past August, everything will be back to normal,’’ Zambrano said. ‘’I was thinking about that after the game. Last August wasn’t that good, but I was able to come back, and September and October were good for me. So it’s nothing to worry about.’’
Zambrano said he’s just having problems with his delivery. He was fighting himself on the mound, emotionally if not physically. That prompted Piniella’s first visit, after a four-pitch walk in the second inning to Ryan Doumit.
So I wonder why he’s having delivery problems…
I haz blurg: hotbeans.wordpress.com
by digitalbenjamin on
Aug 27, 2008 11:41 AM CDT
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he's human, he gets into bad habits
that is what sports is about.
Piniella: "This is a tougher job than I thought it would be, I'm going to be honest with you."
by Ivy Walls on
Aug 27, 2008 3:34 PM CDT
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I wouldn't be surprised if we end up hearing something
over at Will Carroll’s chat today.
The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.
by DGU on
Aug 27, 2008 12:02 PM CDT
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Here you go:
Zambrano is back in the dropped elbow arm slot that he was just after his DL stint, but it slowly came up. The worst I saw it was in the ASG. He’s slinging it — some see it as pushing — and while he can get good velocity, he loses control and movement. The question is why is the slot dropping – pain? weakness? lack of focus? The team has a month to figure it out and make sure it doesn’t get worse. Without Zambrano starting Game 1 of any series, the Cubs are in trouble.
The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.
by DGU on
Aug 27, 2008 12:13 PM CDT
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I don't necessarily agree with his last sentence.
Rich Harden or Ryan Dempster could start any game 1 for the Cubs.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on
Aug 27, 2008 1:32 PM CDT
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Will...
…has a tendancy to get out over his skis every now and then.
He strikes me as someone who works very hard, but doesn’t posses a strong understanding of the game.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on
Aug 27, 2008 2:22 PM CDT
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Isn't that a kick to say:
“Ryan Dempster could start any game 1 for the Cubs.” Remember when everyone was sure Jason Marquis was better than Demp as a starter?
The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.
by DGU on
Aug 27, 2008 5:25 PM CDT
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Sure is a kick.
A kick to the collected opposition’s balls.
make/art
by neverAcquiesce on
Aug 27, 2008 5:29 PM CDT
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This has been...
Z’s MO for several years now. He usually goes through an extended period where he just doesn’t pitch well and I tend to think it may be related to how emotional he gets.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on
Aug 27, 2008 1:46 PM CDT
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He seems to know what's wrong.
The cameras last night caught him the dugout with Geo showing different angles for his release. Hope he knows enough about to correct it by October.
make/art
by neverAcquiesce on
Aug 27, 2008 2:19 PM CDT
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I think that's key
Yes, he’s struggling a bit right now, but we’re still winning. Assuming he corrects it by the playoffs, he’ll be fine. And maybe even more motivated
by chitownhawkeye on
Aug 27, 2008 3:33 PM CDT
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The question is whether Z can fix it even when he knows about it.
It wouldn’t surprise me at all if he has a high pain threshold and doesn’t even realize when he’s pitching hurt., i.e. why he can’t get his arm up. This is just me guessing in the dark, but if he knows, why can’t he change?
There were more quotes re: Cubs in the chat, including a Colin Wyers question and this:
Vlad (Chicago): Will, re: Zambrano’s injury – there’s nothing unusual about his release point or velocity according to PitchFX. Are you sure you’re not falling prey to some sort of confirmation bias?
Will Carroll: The velocity actually ticked up last time — 95,96 — so altering the motion isn’t a good gauge there. (Another example would be Pedro Martinez in 2006.) As for the release point, I can’t explain that. My guess — GUESS — is that he stands more upright or shortens the stride at the same time which coincidentally puts the release point in the same place. (Interesting to think that Zambrano might be doing that unconsciously.) I’m watching on TV, so bad angle. But could I be wrong? Absolutely. That’s why I love PFX. If they could do a video overlay so we could really match up PFX with what we see, that’d be amazing
The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.
by DGU on
Aug 27, 2008 5:24 PM CDT
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Hmm.
All I’m going off of is the shot last night. He was talking with Geo and held his arm in two different places. I’m completely inferring here, but it was like he was telling Soto he knew what he was doing and what he should be doing. I dunno, though.
make/art
by neverAcquiesce on
Aug 27, 2008 5:30 PM CDT
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I've thought there was an armslot problem, too.
So it’s interesting that PFX sees the same release point. Well, hold on, has anyone confirmed Vlad’s assertion?
The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.
by DGU on
Aug 27, 2008 5:37 PM CDT
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Or if that is his real name.
make/art
by neverAcquiesce on
Aug 27, 2008 5:44 PM CDT
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Zambrano in the Playoffs
Not to get ahead of ourselves here but does anyone but me put Z 3rd in our playoff rotation behind harden and dempster? At this point that’s how it shakes out. Unless he starts to be lights out again. Then scratch that thought.
by cedarpip on
Aug 27, 2008 12:06 PM CDT
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sounds best to me
right now, but i’m confident Z can work his way out of it. i’m HOPING he’s not hurt or something, and just concealing it to avoid the DL, because we all know how much he hates to be on the DL.
by nathew on
Aug 27, 2008 12:19 PM CDT
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Z in big games
Zambrano has proven in the past he can pitch at his best in important games. Proof was in 2007 when he made an important start in Chicago and of course he did excellent in Game 1 of the Post Season. I’d start him. He might not always pitch like our ace but he’s been it for the last 3 years.
by ak123 on
Aug 27, 2008 12:32 PM CDT
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Assuming we start a series at home...
I want Dempster pitching at Wrigley. So I go Z, Demp, Harden, Lilly
I haz blurg: hotbeans.wordpress.com
by digitalbenjamin on
Aug 27, 2008 1:22 PM CDT
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Is Lilly going to pitch in the 5-game series?
by daeviant on
Aug 27, 2008 2:02 PM CDT
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hellz no.
Over time, your quickness with a cocky rejoinder must have gotten you many punches in the face - Al Swearengen
by lemon20pie on
Aug 27, 2008 2:08 PM CDT
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Nah.
Z, then Demp, then the first away game would be Harden.
Our 2008 Chicago Cubs -- FINDING WAYS TO WIN!
by drewishdrewid on
Aug 27, 2008 2:51 PM CDT
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Zambrano is NOT our #1 guy right now...
He’s #2 or even #3.
Harden is unhittable, Dempster is a Cy Young candidate, and Zambrano has arm slot issues and a gigantic contract.
Sounds like “I have experience, John McCain has experience, and Barack has a speech he gave in 2002.” ;-)
Seriously, the Cubs need to get Z right, but he’s not the staff ace right now.
Rotation shoud be Harden, Demp, Z, Lilly until further notice.
Let my ashes blow in a beautiful snow from the prevailing 30 mile an hour southwest wind...
When my last remains go flying over the left field wall, I'll bid the bleacher bums adieu,
And I will come to my final resting place, out on Waveland Avenue. --Steve Goodman
by NotSure on
Aug 27, 2008 2:09 PM CDT
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Am I the only one who is not worried about Zambrano?
by daeviant on
Aug 27, 2008 2:19 PM CDT
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nope.
he’ll figure it out — he always does.
Our 2008 Chicago Cubs -- FINDING WAYS TO WIN!
by drewishdrewid on
Aug 27, 2008 2:52 PM CDT
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Here's the Zambrano problem as I see it
He can correct mechanics, and can pitch well with suspect arm slot (see last Reds start).
The problem I see is that he’s being paid very well, and refuses to act like an adult. He is rattled at the smallest incident and cannot retain his professionalism when small things go wrong.
He’s 27 years old now and needs to get his head stright, start throwing strikes and act like an adult while he’s on the mound.
*Synth intro to "Jump"*
by SouthsideCub on
Aug 27, 2008 2:22 PM CDT
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I don't see...
…him ever changing much. His emotions get the best of him sometimes and other times they help him to compete. I think this is why he has periods of inconsistancy.
He is wired the way he is, and this trend will probably continue to some degree.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on
Aug 27, 2008 2:24 PM CDT
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I basically agree...
….but I do think he’s been better about the emotional issues than he ever has been before. This has been one oif my fave things about this whole year.
It’s a tricky balance – his emotional engagement is a big part of what makes Z such a great competitor, but there’s definitely a point of diminishing returns, that he crosses too often. We really don’t want the emotions to go away, we just want better management, which he DID show earlier in the year, but didn’t last night.
Personally, I think he wants to win enough that he’ll get his act together for the big ones (at this point I think we can assume the Cubbies WILL have some big games in the next month or more)….but I do wish he had a little more Maddux and a little less Clemens in his brain!
"Eighty-five percent of the world is working. The other fifteen percent come out here." - Lee Elia, 1983
"The only thing that bothers me is that I would never want to destroy the love and what the fans of Chicago are to the Chicago Cubs. I mean, God knows. If there's one pure thing in baseball, it is the fans of Chicago." - Lee Elia, 2008
by CaughtInTheVines on
Aug 27, 2008 3:20 PM CDT
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Worry in September
He did this last August too. If he were to pitch poorly in consecutive starts in September, then you can start to worry.
by Kornchex on
Aug 27, 2008 2:26 PM CDT
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Dave Kaplan just discussed Zambrano...
…on the Cubs postgame show on ’GN. Kap said that he spoke to a scout and former major league pitcher who speculated that Zambrano might be suffering from some tendonitis in his shoulder. The scout said Z seems to be “shotputting” the ball for the first couple innings until he can get his shoulder to loosen up, then he pitches OK for a little while but tires out rather quickly in the sixth or seventh inning.
I wonder whether a prolonged rest might help. Maybe slot Sean Marshall into one of Z’s starts and see whether that helps? Just a thought.
Yes, sir!
by dat cubfan daver on
Aug 27, 2008 2:33 PM CDT
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If that is the case...
…they better rest him now. I had tendinitis in my shoulder in college and needed several cortisone shots to get it right. It all depends how severe it is, but mine took 2 weeks to be able to throw without pain.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on
Aug 27, 2008 2:41 PM CDT
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Agreed
I’d much rather he miss a start or even two now if it means he’s right in October. Marshall has shown he is more than capable of throwing a decent game. With the September callups, and with several off days upcoming once they get past this 16 in 16 stretch, the Cubs have the flexibiity to skip a start or two by Z without much cost.
Then again, maybe the calendar will turn to September and he’ll be fine.
by DonnyDonovan on
Aug 27, 2008 2:55 PM CDT
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Ah...the speculators.
He did this same exact thing last year at the beginning of the year and in August. In 2006, he did it at the beginning of the year. If he did not have a pattern of this, I would be suspect of an injury but he is experiencing the same issues that he did in 06 and 07. So either he has been playing with pain for years or his mechanics are screwed up. I will take Mechanics for 100 Alex.
"Aw, how could he (Jorge Orta) lose the ball in the sun, he's from Mexico." -- Harry Carey
by TheRiot Police on
Aug 27, 2008 3:19 PM CDT
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Once the Cubs wrap up the division...
(which is hopefully sooner rather than later); they will have plenty of time to get Z rest in Sept. by having someone else take his spot once, and taking him out early. If he was hurting so much that he couldn’t pitch effectively – he wouldn’t even be out there. So, obviously if it is tendinitis, then it’s not so bad that is an issue.
If you put together the post season rotation, it goes: Zambrano, Dempster, Harden, Lilly, or Zambrano, Dempster, Lilly, Harden. The Cubs will likely finish with the best record in the NL, so all series will start at home, so you want Demp to start at home. Z goes first b/c then you have the choice to bring him back, or give him an extra day. Lilly might go before Harden just to break up the righties. Harden should go third or fourth simply b/c he won’t come back on short rest, and then they could switch it up for the NLCS, and Harden goes early in the series, and could pitch in relief, or start again in NLCS.
Jimmyeatworld
by Jimmyeatworld on
Aug 27, 2008 3:21 PM CDT
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Not so fast...
Given the schedule, if Harden pitches in Game 2 he could go again in game 5. I think you throw your best pitchers in order, so I’d go Zambrano, Harden, and Dempster, in that order. The situation will dictate, however, so there is no point in setting the rotation now.
One thing you learned as a Cubs fan: when you bought you ticket, you could bank on seeing the bottom of the ninth.
Joe Garagiola
by Ryan at Cubshub on
Aug 27, 2008 3:38 PM CDT
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i think you go
Harden, Dempster, Zambrano, Lilly, Harden
This way you get Harden pitching twice on normal rest in a series
You have Demp pitch at home where he’s been much better and his GB tendencies are more needed, then Z and Lilly pitch on the road where their general FB Tendencies play a bit better
by DartmouthCubsFan on
Aug 27, 2008 3:42 PM CDT
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but would moving Z to the 3rd spot...
cause his to get emotionally frustrated? that’s the last thing we need… just something to consider…
I haz blurg: hotbeans.wordpress.com
by digitalbenjamin on
Aug 27, 2008 5:07 PM CDT
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In a five-game series
it’s Z, Demp, Harden, Z (if necessary), Demp (if Necessary).
Then, if that actually goes five games, you start the seven :
Harden, Z, Demp, Lilly, Harden (if necessary), Z (If necessary), Demp (if Necessary).
Repeat for the other 7-game series. o_0
Our 2008 Chicago Cubs -- FINDING WAYS TO WIN!
by drewishdrewid on
Aug 27, 2008 3:52 PM CDT
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amyone else notice
geo adamently yelling at z from behind the plate and showing a calm it down sign. goe is extremely wise beyond his years. his catching is more impressive than his bat and thats saying something.
from the mouth of Uecker:
"Am I the only one who’s glad it’s only a 4-game series? If was a 9-game series, I think the Cubs would win them all."
by cubsluver22 on
Aug 27, 2008 4:14 PM CDT
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Geo does this with Z all the time.
Yes, it’s very impressive.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on
Aug 27, 2008 5:41 PM CDT
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Soto had me...
…when he grabbed Zambrano by the shirt tail last year to get his attention. I’ll bet Lou just loved that as well, cause that is the type of player he was.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on
Aug 27, 2008 5:42 PM CDT
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He's gotta be ready for the playoffs
He’s got a month to get it together for the playoffs.
"Check the magic of a winning season and there are always reasons beyond the talent." Ned Colleti
by wrigleyrocker12 on
Aug 27, 2008 5:15 PM CDT
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Make no mistake Rich Harden is most important starting pitcher come playoff time
Like I’ve said many times before, Harden can be this team’s Josh Beckett come October baseball. With all due respect to Carlos Zambrano, Ryan Dempster and Ted Lilly (and Jason Marquis come to think of it).
Zambrano will be fine. Frankly I’m surprised the sabermagicians and pitch count police led by Cwyers and Dartmouth haven’t hijacked this thread with linear regression analysis suggesting that root cause of Zambrano’s problems dates back to Lou asking him to throw 3 more than advisable pitches on a day when the ambient temperature was 5.4 degrees above norm.
by MDBNIU on
Aug 27, 2008 11:40 PM CDT
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So you "Agree 100%" with Dartmouth above...
…then you take a cheap shot at him (and cwyers) here. Gee, you’re a swell guy.
Contradiction. Repetition. Contradiction. Repetition. Contradiction. Repetition. Contradiction. Repetition. Contradiction. Repetition. Contradiction. Repetition. Contradiction. Repetition. Contradiction. Repetition. Contradiction. Repetition. Contradiction. Repetition.
Yes, sir!
by dat cubfan daver on
Aug 28, 2008 9:26 AM CDT
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it dates back
to Zambrano’s 130 pitch outing, i did say it before….
by DartmouthCubsFan on
Aug 29, 2008 8:10 AM CDT
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