Bad News: Z to See Dr. about Arm
by BrewCrew'sPrinceofDarkness on Sep 2, 2008 11:40 PM CDT
77 comments
Sun-Times Says:
Cubs ace Carlos Zambrano complained of soreness in his right arm when he left his start early Wednesday night, throwing into doubt his status for the remainder of the season and postseason.
Read the whole thing HERE.
According to Lou, Z is hurt and will see a doctor on Wednesday.
What does this mean for Z?
What is best case scenario?
What is the worst case scenario?
Are you scared?
Does it matter that Z is missing?
Please Discuss, I will update when more info comes in.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
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Well first relax…it hasn’t been a good 4 games:
What does this mean for Z: Let the doctors tell him.
What is best case scenario: Obviously he would be fine.
What is worse case scenario: Let’s NOT go there right now.
Are you scared: Not yet. From day 1 I’ve atleast said they need to clinch, not win division. Magic # to get to October if I’m correct is 15. That’s doable with or without Z.
Does it Matter: Are you just trying to fill space in here?
As I said above, relax, wait for the news…Z is big to this team but he’s only going to pitch 1 of 3 games in October…we have players who need to play every game that month.
by ak123 on Sep 2, 2008 11:46 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Yes I was trying to fill space.
Theriot, Fonty, and Johnson = The Scrappy Pyramid of Victory
by BrewCrew'sPrinceofDarkness on Sep 3, 2008 12:11 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Honestly..
Don’t care a lick.
Dempster and Harden and Lilly can do the job.
Would I rather have Z? of course I would. But I don’t want the Z of the 6+ era of the month of august or the Z who doesn’t pitch well under pressure or adversity. I’d rather see a Z at full capacity handle some October work.
If that means giving him up for September, I’m good with it.
WOXY.com - The Future of Rock and Roll
by Gibbon Jockey on Sep 2, 2008 11:46 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
As long as it stays at Dr.
and doesn’t extend into the 3 most dreaded words in sports….
I will not panic.
The Walk: Weapon of choice for the 2008 Cubs
by halfblindcubbiegirl on Sep 2, 2008 11:54 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
What scares me is that he asked to be taken out becuase of pain
That tells me tendons are involved.
Theriot, Fonty, and Johnson = The Scrappy Pyramid of Victory
by BrewCrew'sPrinceofDarkness on Sep 3, 2008 12:10 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or perhaps
Z recognized he shouldn’t pitch anymore today because he knows he needs to be used in October.
by ak123 on Sep 3, 2008 12:16 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't want to call names but have you ever seen this movie?
Theriot, Fonty, and Johnson = The Scrappy Pyramid of Victory
by BrewCrew'sPrinceofDarkness on Sep 3, 2008 12:17 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pollyanna
(pŏl’ē-ăn’ə) pronunciation
n.
A person regarded as being foolishly or blindly optimistic.
Theriot, Fonty, and Johnson = The Scrappy Pyramid of Victory
by BrewCrew'sPrinceofDarkness on Sep 3, 2008 12:21 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
we need a pollyanna around here
god i hope you’re right.
The Walk: Weapon of choice for the 2008 Cubs
by halfblindcubbiegirl on Sep 3, 2008 12:21 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let me explain further
Yes there was soreness in his arm. And he COULD have pitched but Z didn’t want to take any chances. I’m sure he’s had times he’s pitched through pain (as evidenced when he used to get cramps).
By teh way, Suntimes picked up news: http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/cubs/1141808,CST-SPT-cubweb03.article
Sore arm in my eyes seems better than arm pain…
by ak123 on Sep 3, 2008 12:22 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great Link I will add to post.
Theriot, Fonty, and Johnson = The Scrappy Pyramid of Victory
by BrewCrew'sPrinceofDarkness on Sep 3, 2008 12:23 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That snippet didn't give me reason for optimism
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 3, 2008 12:23 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No it didn't
But this is the second time we’ve been through this with Z this year and let’s not forget we awaited for news like this many times with his “cramps” in the past.
Now of course they can be masking words or anything else but is soreness better than pain?
by ak123 on Sep 3, 2008 12:24 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Soreness to me is better than shooting pain or throbbing or any other adjective
Sore can be rested/iced/treated… pain is bad.
The Walk: Weapon of choice for the 2008 Cubs
by halfblindcubbiegirl on Sep 3, 2008 12:25 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If he has a tendinitis
They can give him a shot of Cortisone, sit him for two weeks and give him a start the last week of the season. If he feels okay, all systems go. If he is not, not on the playoff roster. You can’t rest him the entire month and burn a roster spot in the playoffs on a potential none contributor.
"Aw, how could he (Jorge Orta) lose the ball in the sun, he's from Mexico." -- Harry Carey
by TheRiot Police on Sep 3, 2008 12:31 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
OK but Z doesn't like to leave the game...ever
let alone when he’s batting 4th in the bottom of the inning.
Theriot, Fonty, and Johnson = The Scrappy Pyramid of Victory
by BrewCrew'sPrinceofDarkness on Sep 3, 2008 12:34 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i know
but… it may ONLY sound bad and not be bad. thats what i’m getting at
The Walk: Weapon of choice for the 2008 Cubs
by halfblindcubbiegirl on Sep 3, 2008 12:44 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
Were this the playoffs, I am guessing Z pitches through it. Now he may actually see the need to preserve his health with a 4 1/2 game lead.
Kwa...Ki...Sur...Pee...Nee...Ku?
by Kinky Reggae on Sep 3, 2008 8:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
How nervous?
This nervous?
Or
THIS NERVOUS?
Theriot, Fonty, and Johnson = The Scrappy Pyramid of Victory
by BrewCrew'sPrinceofDarkness on Sep 3, 2008 12:16 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Relax, guys
Not that it’s great if Z is out. But the Cubs pitching is fine.
Good teams can withstand this sort of thing.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 3, 2008 12:15 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
DL him right now without any question
He will be able to come back and get two starts in before the playoffs.
Your 2008 Missouri Tigers! #6 1-0 (0-0). Next up Saturday home vs. SEMO. We might drop 100 points on them.
by nji232 on Sep 3, 2008 12:15 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
No DL
40 man roster. So I don’t think he needs to DL. He just won’t pitch.
by ak123 on Sep 3, 2008 12:16 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
DL so there can be no temptataion and no him talking Lou into letting him pitch
Make it so he HAS to sit out 15-days.
Your 2008 Missouri Tigers! #6 1-0 (0-0). Next up Saturday home vs. SEMO. We might drop 100 points on them.
by nji232 on Sep 3, 2008 12:18 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lou is ONLY stupid when it comes to Bob Howry.
He won’t let him pitch and forfeit that chances at the post season.
Kwa...Ki...Sur...Pee...Nee...Ku?
by Kinky Reggae on Sep 3, 2008 8:05 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gotta disagree...
Lou is not ONLY stupid when it comes to Bob Howry.
But, yes, I don’t think he will be stupid with Z.
Free Ronny Cedeno
by Kansas25 on Sep 3, 2008 12:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Really?
He just gave him extra rest for the arm even though Z said he wanted to pitch. I think he would have better sense. Either way, no DL as others have stated. He’ll just have to force the issue.
Kwa...Ki...Sur...Pee...Nee...Ku?
by Kinky Reggae on Sep 3, 2008 1:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
There's no DL for him to go on.
The point of the DL is to clear roster space from the 25-man roster. The roster limit has expanded to 40.
by cwyers on Sep 3, 2008 9:50 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Posted in the overflow, but will repeat here
Zambrano was awful in August. Awful. The Cubs won 20 games.
Yes, they’re better with him, but they can win with someone else pitching.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 3, 2008 12:17 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
we need him for the playoffs
Your 2008 Missouri Tigers! #6 1-0 (0-0). Next up Saturday home vs. SEMO. We might drop 100 points on them.
by nji232 on Sep 3, 2008 12:21 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So if he's hurt, we forfeit?
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 3, 2008 12:21 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
no but if he is hurt we are no longer the far and away better team
Having three great starters is what puts us above the rest of the NL. manny parra v Z or Harden or Demp is different than MAnny parra v ted lilly
Your 2008 Missouri Tigers! #6 1-0 (0-0). Next up Saturday home vs. SEMO. We might drop 100 points on them.
by nji232 on Sep 3, 2008 12:23 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed, it is a significant difference
And I’ll be very disappointed if he can’t pitch. But I won’t give up.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 3, 2008 12:24 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I won't give up either, but I certainly won't be as confident
Your 2008 Missouri Tigers! #6 1-0 (0-0). Next up Saturday home vs. SEMO. We might drop 100 points on them.
by nji232 on Sep 3, 2008 12:25 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
How so?
It’s still Manny Parra?
The Cubs aren’t the best team in the NL because of only their pitching. We’re a complete team. And I believe the Cubs can get to any starter they face this year. Z out shouldn’t hinder us from getting to the post-season (honestly my fear right now).
Z, Harden or Dempster can pitch the best game of their life in October but we still need to hit.
by ak123 on Sep 3, 2008 12:27 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
my point is what starting pitcher would you rather have going when healthy
Ted Lilly or Carlos Zambrano
Your 2008 Missouri Tigers! #6 1-0 (0-0). Next up Saturday home vs. SEMO. We might drop 100 points on them.
by nji232 on Sep 3, 2008 12:29 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Obviously Z
But if The Cubs can hit any pitcher around I truly believe it shouldn’t matter if Lilly or Z pitches that game.
So Z could be dominant Zambrano and if The Cubs don’t get a hit, it wouldn’t matter.
I know the counter argument, what if we have someone like Marquis out there and he gives up 6 runs. That would be awful.
However in all seriousness, let’s just clinch October any way possible before worrying about this. We have to win 15 to guarantee if Philly wins every game for rest of the year. Realistically we need to win maybe 12 or 13 in September to clinch. Let’s just do that.
by ak123 on Sep 3, 2008 12:35 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think I can agree with everything you said
Your 2008 Missouri Tigers! #6 1-0 (0-0). Next up Saturday home vs. SEMO. We might drop 100 points on them.
by nji232 on Sep 3, 2008 12:39 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd take a healthy bullpen
Over one starter down.
by ak123 on Sep 3, 2008 12:23 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Cards won it 06 with only one Z Caliber Pitcher
and they went to the WS in 04 without their best pitcher available for any round of the playoffs.
The playoffs are a crap shoot. If the offense comes out plays like they have the last few games, we could throw 7 Zs and still not win
Listen, it would be nice to have him but if he is hurt there is not much we can do.
"Aw, how could he (Jorge Orta) lose the ball in the sun, he's from Mexico." -- Harry Carey
by TheRiot Police on Sep 3, 2008 12:26 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly
this is a bad funk right now. Z hurt, lose four in arow and leave a ton of runners on.
Get a win tommorrow, Demp throw 7 tight innings, and get the win.
Go Cubs, were in first not the Brewers.
"Have You heard of the Boom on Mizar 5?"
by Grockcubs on Sep 3, 2008 12:31 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Would you rather lose a guy who plays
every five days, or one who plays every day?
Again, it isn’t ideal, but it could be worse.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 3, 2008 1:07 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
If Zambrano is done for the year then it shall be devastating to World Series chances
Yeah, the 24 other guys still play the games and remain, collectively speaking, a talented bunch. And yeah, you still make the playoffs. But advancing past that step? Under the scenario that you face Brendan Webb, Danny Haren and the Big Unit in a short series?
by MDBNIU on Sep 3, 2008 4:30 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Unless The Dodgers...
…pass them up. Also, isn’t something going wrong with Webb??
Jacque Jones is gone, and I doubt Ivan DeJesus would mind this!
by initram on Sep 3, 2008 6:43 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, Brandon has gotten litup his last two starts
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 3, 2008 6:45 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
MDB - If You Think The Cubs Won't Make It
Then I suggest you mentally prepare for it now and readjust your expectations for them just making the postseason. That way, you won’t worry as much and the disappointment you foresee will be more manageable for yourself.
"Sometimes I feel like as a Cubs fan if I’m not worrying about something, I’m not doing it right." - HalfBlindCubbieGirl
by CaliCub on Sep 3, 2008 8:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And maybe we won't have to read you...
…going on and on about how great Webb, Haren and the Big Unit are everyday.
"I see the playoff schedule posted in the paper, and that stuff makes me nervous because you can't take anything for granted. We have a great team. We have a really good team. We're playing well, but we haven't won yet." - Jim Edmonds, 8/31/08
by dat cubfan daver on Sep 3, 2008 9:30 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Im a little tired
Im getting tired of people really putting down Lily, Dempster and Harden and Zambrano with this constant saying we’re doomed if we face these Diamondback guys.
Why do you think the CUbs starters suck?
Go Cubs
by cubstoseriesby100 on Sep 3, 2008 11:39 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why do you take these things so personally?
people are concerned and rightfully so. They are great pitchers, they have gotten this team this far.
Kwa...Ki...Sur...Pee...Nee...Ku?
by Kinky Reggae on Sep 3, 2008 12:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hmmm
Haren and Webb, yeah but Johnson no. Even thoug he won on Monday, he still gave up 5 runs, and had not done anything like this performance in July. Truth be told, that flash of youth back in July is over, IMO.
by StevenABQ on Sep 3, 2008 10:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Uh, well...
…the Big Unit did have a 2.45 ERA over six starts in August with a 47:6 K/BB ratio. I’m not necessarily disagreeing with MDBNIU that the D’Backs have a formidable starting rotation; I’m just sick of him harping about it and assuming that none of us here recognize the challenge Arizona would present in the playoffs. Ha, I also just noticed that he called Brandon Webb “Brendan.”
"I see the playoff schedule posted in the paper, and that stuff makes me nervous because you can't take anything for granted. We have a great team. We have a really good team. We're playing well, but we haven't won yet." - Jim Edmonds, 8/31/08
by dat cubfan daver on Sep 3, 2008 11:04 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
The thing about the Big Unit is that he has little spurts like that, where he regains some kind of youthful vigor, and all the ESPNs fawn over him. Look he’s a decent veteren pitcher, but he does not invoke the fear that some try to attribute to him. Of course if I met him I would never say this…to his face.
by StevenABQ on Sep 3, 2008 12:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Whose this "Danny" Haren
Its Dan Haren…… as someone whose been called “Mikey” I hate that unneccessary addition of the y at the end of a name.
Anyway.
Zambrano has been awful his last few starts. 6 plus ERA and the St. Louis and Pittsburgh games were downright terrible. This leads me to believe that his “tired arm” was something a little bit more then we were first lead to believe.
But Consider this: Other Contenders are having issues with ACE type pitchers Boston has had a problem with Josh Beckett and Ben Sheets had a groin issue with Milwaukee.
While im not jumping off the ledge YET and let me say that I see good things for this team, the Loss of Zambrano is not as bad as say a loss to Soto, Soriano or Aramis.
Remember this fact even if the worst happens and we lose our lead in the division, We’d STILL have a wild card to fall back on and better still if that happens we’d face someone OTHER then D-Backs in the first round.
BTW: We have beaten Haren already this season.
"I guess you had some lean years, and didnt have to beat it hard" - Craig Sager
"Soriano deep to left!! THAT BALL'S GOOOONE!! A HOME RUN!! OHHH BABY!!" -Len Kasper 8/06/08
SORIANO WATCH: AVG: .294 23 HR 63 RBI
by Galvan316 on Sep 3, 2008 7:40 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
It's Daniel John Haren..............
…………….to be exact, but you might want to look at this:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/h/harenda01.shtml
……………..for further clarification.
"Happiness? A good cigar, a good meal, a good cigar and a good woman - or a bad woman; it depends on how much happiness you can handle." ~ George Burns
by tville on Sep 3, 2008 8:10 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Okay Dan/Danny/Daniel whatever
I think there was more to that post then just his name
"I guess you had some lean years, and didnt have to beat it hard" - Craig Sager
"Soriano deep to left!! THAT BALL'S GOOOONE!! A HOME RUN!! OHHH BABY!!" -Len Kasper 8/06/08
SORIANO WATCH: AVG: .294 23 HR 63 RBI
by Galvan316 on Sep 3, 2008 8:42 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed there was more to your post, but...........
………….he’s been called “Danny” for quite some time.
"Happiness? A good cigar, a good meal, a good cigar and a good woman - or a bad woman; it depends on how much happiness you can handle." ~ George Burns
by tville on Sep 3, 2008 8:58 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I say give Shark a try as a starter.
Good time to test the waters (pun intended) with a 4.5 game lead.
Kwa...Ki...Sur...Pee...Nee...Ku?
by Kinky Reggae on Sep 3, 2008 8:03 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Was Three Seconds Away From Posting the Exact Same Thing!
"Sometimes I feel like as a Cubs fan if I’m not worrying about something, I’m not doing it right." - HalfBlindCubbieGirl
by CaliCub on Sep 3, 2008 8:04 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He is a starter.
Let him start and expand the bullpen with callups.
Kwa...Ki...Sur...Pee...Nee...Ku?
by Kinky Reggae on Sep 3, 2008 8:06 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sounds Good
Begin to stretch him out, then give him a start at Houston?
"Sometimes I feel like as a Cubs fan if I’m not worrying about something, I’m not doing it right." - HalfBlindCubbieGirl
by CaliCub on Sep 3, 2008 8:08 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly.
Give him a shot. Heck, worst case scenario, we get Z back and then can pitch Marquis every 10 days or something.
Kwa...Ki...Sur...Pee...Nee...Ku?
by Kinky Reggae on Sep 3, 2008 8:16 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not sure this is even possible right now.
Wouldn’t they have to send Samardzija back down to Triple A to stretch his arm out? And how could they do that with the Iowa team in its postseason right now?
Plus, I’m just not crazy about taking a guy who’s essentially been pitching late-inning relief and suddenly making him a starter. I know this analogy isn’t perfect, but it reminds me too much of what the Yankees did with Joba. Sean Marshall is a good No. 5 guy who’s been pitching as a long man/spot starter all season and appears much more suited for a quick transition back into the rotation.
"I see the playoff schedule posted in the paper, and that stuff makes me nervous because you can't take anything for granted. We have a great team. We have a really good team. We're playing well, but we haven't won yet." - Jim Edmonds, 8/31/08
by dat cubfan daver on Sep 3, 2008 9:35 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah but
Shark was a starter most of this season. The “stretching out” period may not be that long. Plus, better try it now when there is a 4.5 game lead than suddenly if Z goes down.
Maybe not though. I have been curious about his ability to be a starter since he was called up.
Kwa...Ki...Sur...Pee...Nee...Ku?
by Kinky Reggae on Sep 3, 2008 12:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tend to agree...
…but not because of the need to stretch him out. To me, it looks as though Jeff needs to master his other pitches to go through the lineup more than once.
I could be wrong, but I think the kid needs some seasoning before he becomes a starter.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Sep 3, 2008 1:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bob Brenly has said the same thing...
In Brenly’s oberservance the Shark operates with only two quality pitches right now. If that is the case (and I have not watched him intently enough on my own to know) then he’s not starting pitcher material at this level. Yet at least.
by MDBNIU on Sep 3, 2008 1:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
There is also the factor of losing a our third strong arm out of the pen.
Marshal can start games and keep us in them for 5 innings but no one on this team can pitch the 7th the way the Shark does.
Theriot, Fonty, and Johnson = The Scrappy Pyramid of Victory
by BrewCrew'sPrinceofDarkness on Sep 3, 2008 2:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That is my concern
As for the 2 pitch arsenal, plenty of pitchers who command their 2 very well succeed on just them.
Kwa...Ki...Sur...Pee...Nee...Ku?
by Kinky Reggae on Sep 3, 2008 3:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What About Giving Angel Guzman Some Starts?
"Sometimes I feel like as a Cubs fan if I’m not worrying about something, I’m not doing it right." - HalfBlindCubbieGirl
by CaliCub on Sep 3, 2008 3:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's coming off arm surgery...
…and not ready for extended outings. To be honest, I would doubt he’ll ever go back to being a starter given his lengthy and recurrent injury history.
"I see the playoff schedule posted in the paper, and that stuff makes me nervous because you can't take anything for granted. We have a great team. We have a really good team. We're playing well, but we haven't won yet." - Jim Edmonds, 8/31/08
by dat cubfan daver on Sep 3, 2008 4:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
have to agree
between him and shark, one has very recent experience in the starter role.
Kwa...Ki...Sur...Pee...Nee...Ku?
by Kinky Reggae on Sep 4, 2008 8:01 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wait,
best case scenario.
Kwa...Ki...Sur...Pee...Nee...Ku?
by Kinky Reggae on Sep 3, 2008 8:16 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Anyone else notice
Anyone else notice this always happens when we have a night game so we have to wait as long as possible to find out news?
Go Cubs
by cubstoseriesby100 on Sep 3, 2008 11:37 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
aren't we glad
we didn’t get rid of marquis?!?!?
by cubswynn on Sep 3, 2008 3:48 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Thing is
Thing is in August he was better than Zambrano!
Go Cubs
by cubstoseriesby100 on Sep 3, 2008 3:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
no
still cant stand him.
from the mouth of Uecker:
"Am I the only one who’s glad it’s only a 4-game series? If was a 9-game series, I think the Cubs would win them all."
by cubsluver22 on Sep 3, 2008 4:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
Theriot, Fonty, and Johnson = The Scrappy Pyramid of Victory
by BrewCrew'sPrinceofDarkness on Sep 3, 2008 6:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
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