Marshalling Our Resources: Cubs 2, Mets 6
Far be it from me to look to John Kruk as the fount of all baseball wisdom, but if you saw Baseball Tonight last night, you'll have to admit he had a point.
They ran the highlight of the bizarre play where Johan Santana's bat broke when he hit a ground ball up the middle, only to see the ball hit one of the bat pieces and bounce away from Ronny Cedeno. Marshall waved his arms as if to say, "What the heck?", as if it were Cedeno's fault, which it wasn't. He did strike out Jose Reyes and the inning could have been over, and then he seemed to lose focus, walking Luis Castillo and giving up a two-run single to David Wright, which tied the game.
Kruk said Marshall's body language was all wrong, and he's right. Lou didn't look happy in the dugout, but that didn't stop Lou from praising Marshall after the game:
"Our guy matched [Santana] pitch for pitch there, and actually was doing a little better until the fifth inning," Cubs manager Lou Piniella said. "We need to get [Marshall] back in the bullpen, where he can help us in the middle. He'll pitch a little in the middle in the Milwaukee series to get ready for postseason."
I like Sean Marshall and I think he'll be very valuable in the postseason. But he can't lose focus like that. The Cubs lost the game to the Mets 6-2, not really important in the grand scheme of things, except that it now will require winning out in order to get to 100 wins, perhaps the only remaining team goal.
Meanwhile, Chad Gaudin may have pitched himself off the playoff roster by giving up four hard hits and inexplicably flipping a ball to Derrek Lee on which he had no chance of getting the runner; a run scored on the resulting error, but it would have scored anyway as the Mets pounded Gaudin. Maybe it's the effects of not having pitched in nearly a month, but I'm guessing Lou looks at quite a number of different bullpen combinations before making a decision prior to next Wednesday.
Reed Johnson had been 10-for-19 vs. Santana in the AL and he continued that domination; going 2-for-3, he's now 11-for-22 against one of the best pitchers in the game and that could prove to be important if the Mets are the Cubs' first-round opponent. It was also good to see Kosuke Fukudome get two hits, especially against a tough lefthander. I'd like to see Dome play every day the rest of the week; if he can get back on the track he appeared to be on early in the season, that'd be a real boost to the offense.
It's getting hard to write these recaps; with this much time left until a game that really means something, what else can you say except to use clichés like "playing out the string". With the Brewers also winning last night, the Mets' lead in the wild-card race remains at one game with five to play, and the Cubs may not know who will arrive at Wrigley Field on Wednesday until Sunday -- or maybe even beyond.
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FIRST to agree!
Never, but NEVER, put ketchup on a hot dog.
by CaliCub on
Sep 24, 2008 8:15 AM CDT
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New worry
Do you suppose some teams will come calling for the services of either Randy Bush or Oneri Fleita in the offseason?
I think the Cubs may lose front office and coaching staff.
Go Cubs
by cubstoseriesby100 on
Sep 24, 2008 8:18 AM CDT
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I think you need to stop making up stuff to worry about.
The Chicago Cubs: 2008 Central Division Champions
by dat cubfan daver on
Sep 24, 2008 10:40 AM CDT
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I wasn't able to see the play
but hearing it described, Marshall had no reason to get upset about that one. There was nothing he could do about it. His reaction should have been to say WTF and laugh it off b/c it sounds pretty funny, reading about the play.
Either way, he did pitch well and I am happy that Marshall made the playoff roster. As for Gaudin, I really hope he gets ‘it’ figured out soon because we know he is a good pitcher and a big assets to our pen.
When you're eight games behind, it's like eight miles; when you're eight games in front, it's like eight inches. ~ Ron Santo
by gwood on
Sep 24, 2008 8:25 AM CDT
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It was just a "one of those things" play
Certainly nothing that should have made Marshall mad or made him lose focus.
by SuperContext on
Sep 24, 2008 8:27 AM CDT
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That's exactly what Kruk's point was.
He should have laughed it off and got the next two guys and finished off the inning.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on
Sep 24, 2008 8:29 AM CDT
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i agree with you and kruk
but my god didn’t kruk seem overly pissy about the play?!? it’s not as if losing this game is going to have a significant impact of the rest of the reason
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
by cubswynn on
Sep 24, 2008 9:37 AM CDT
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Kruk often gets overly pissy.
Sometimes, that makes his point lost. Not last night, though.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on
Sep 24, 2008 9:44 AM CDT
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He thinks the Astros were screwed, by the way.
make*art
by neverAcquiesce on
Sep 24, 2008 10:07 AM CDT
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I hadn't heard that...
The other sports are just sports. Baseball is a love. ~Bryant Gumbel
by Blue W on
Sep 24, 2008 10:08 AM CDT
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i agree with him
oh god let’s not start this debate again!
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
by cubswynn on
Sep 24, 2008 10:10 AM CDT
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RIDICULOUS! JUST RIDICULOUS!
DID I MENTION IT WAS RIDICULOUS? OH, BY THE WAY, IT WAS RIDICULOUS!
The Chicago Cubs: 2008 Central Division Champions
by dat cubfan daver on
Sep 24, 2008 10:43 AM CDT
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Ridiculous
I started to count how many times he said that but ran out of fingers
If the world didn't suck we would all fall off.
by carolinacub on
Sep 24, 2008 1:25 PM CDT
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Ridikulus
even
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on
Sep 24, 2008 1:30 PM CDT
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when you are pulling for the phillies, last night does mean something!
"Bring On The Major Leagues" Stephen Malkmus
by graceunderpressure on
Sep 24, 2008 10:45 AM CDT
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I disagree
I disagree as to what Marshall was conveying with his body language. I don’t believe he meant any disrespect to Cedeno at all. Rather, it seemed clear to me that he was simply throwing up his arms in disbelieft that the ball hit the broken bat after it had gone past him.
There is one major reason that I believe that was his intention….I think he recognized that he should have fielded it cleanly himself. If he fields it, it’s a DP. I don’t think he was upset with Cedeno at all but was more disturbed that he missed the ball and then it goes on to hit a broken bat. I think he was giving the “what can you do” body language more than anything and don’t believe he lost focus at all.
Who needs a stinkin' tag line? What are they for anyway?
by krummy12 on
Sep 24, 2008 8:35 AM CDT
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Maybe so...
… still, it did seem as if he pitched differently after that play.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on
Sep 24, 2008 8:45 AM CDT
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I agree with krummy, not kruky.
Marshall wanted to field the ball himself, but the bat came flying through. Then it struck the ball, breaking up Cedeno’s rhythm. Honestly, I don’t think Marshall was peeved at anyone, but instead filled with disbelief that something so crazy could happen.
I guess we’ll never know………..
What supports the “disbelief” stance is the way he handled Reyes. He got a fortunate strike call from the ump, but then busted Reyes up with a heater. Why he failed to do the same against Castillo is, well, yet another mystery.
"Happiness? A good cigar, a good meal, a good cigar and a good woman - or a bad woman; it depends on how much happiness you can handle." ~ George Burns
by tville on
Sep 24, 2008 8:51 AM CDT
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I also agree with Krummy.
I think Marsh was just was in disbelief after the play. And Al is right, still didn’t change the fact that wheels fell off so fast but this is why he isn’t permanent in the starting rotation.
"Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living." - Alvin Dark
by Fishbone2 on
Sep 24, 2008 10:08 AM CDT
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+ 1,000
That is exactly what I was going to say.
It was more of a “you have got to be kidding me” type of reaction at the sheer bad luck of it all.
McCain / Palin: The POW / WOW! Ticket
by Goat Whisperer on
Sep 24, 2008 10:28 AM CDT
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I saw the play...
…and this was my thought as well. I assumed Marshall was either mad at himself or perhaps even mad at the fact that yet another maple bat exploded like a rotten apple hitting a brick wall.
The Chicago Cubs: 2008 Central Division Champions
by dat cubfan daver on
Sep 24, 2008 10:42 AM CDT
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I agree...
Marshall had just walked a batter on 4 pitches to open the inning and had a chance for a dp. The shattered bat distracted both he and Cedeno from making the play. I would probably have reacted the same. The increasing number of sharp maple projectiles that are directed toward the mound must be a concern for all pitchers. If the batter were to intentionally throw the bat or helmet or other object, then there would be an interference call. By choosing to use thinner and thinner bats made of brittle wood, the batter has effectively chosen to randomly throw his bat toward the fielders. Something needs to be done such as setting minimum handle diameters and wood quality standards.
by txtom on
Sep 24, 2008 11:28 AM CDT
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Re: Gaudin
Of more concern to me is not the fact that Gaudin may have pitched himself off the playoff roster is that in doing so, he may have pitched Bob Howry onto the playoff roster
by philadelphiacub on
Sep 24, 2008 8:54 AM CDT
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+1 billion
Despite Gaudin’s bad night last night, Lou shouldn’t forget that batters are hitting .300 (!) against Howry this season.
Gaudin and Marhsall will get the 5-7th innings, Spellcheck (I really don’t know how to spell his name, and I’m an excellent speller) gets the 6-7th innings, Marmol for the 8th and Wood for the 9th. It’s that simple.
We cannot chance Howry pitching in the playoffs. Christ, MARQUIS would be a better option, and that’s why he’s there.
*Synth intro to "Jump"*
by SouthsideCub on
Sep 24, 2008 9:05 AM CDT
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NO! on item number P.O.R. 68- Bob Howry on the playoff roster
by philadelphiacub on
Sep 24, 2008 9:35 AM CDT
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here's the lesson to be learned
if you are gaudin and you are in the thick of a playoff race, don’t get so drunk you fall into a dumpster and hurt yourself……he’s got little time left to prove he belongs
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
by cubswynn on
Sep 24, 2008 9:40 AM CDT
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Best post I've read so far this morning
"A catchers biggest concern behind the plate is to make his pitcher pitch a little better than he can" Roy Campanella
by Madison Cub Fan on
Sep 24, 2008 9:41 AM CDT
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in a very melancholy way
That's the beauty of baseball. You never know what's going to happen until the final out -- Lou
by Emelie on
Sep 24, 2008 10:41 AM CDT
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yah i was sighing as i wrote it :(
i would really like to see him make the playoff roster
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
by cubswynn on
Sep 24, 2008 10:43 AM CDT
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You don't think it's going to be Marmol for the 7th & 8th
Wood for the 9th – unless Carlos worked the night before?
by The Deputy Mayor of Rush Street on
Sep 24, 2008 11:16 AM CDT
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Marmol doesn't seem to be as effective in his second inning of work in a night
"I owe [Dunston] a lot. Nobody would know how good I was at digging balls out of the dirt if it wasn't for him..." -Mark Grace
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
by Clutch16 on
Sep 24, 2008 11:23 AM CDT
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Amen, brother.
Did I really just type that?
The Chicago Cubs: 2008 Central Division Champions
by dat cubfan daver on
Sep 24, 2008 10:44 AM CDT
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I dunno.
Did you grow a bushy handlebar moustache last night?
make*art
by neverAcquiesce on
Sep 24, 2008 10:46 AM CDT
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Holy crap, I did!

The Chicago Cubs: 2008 Central Division Champions
by dat cubfan daver on
Sep 24, 2008 10:50 AM CDT
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And stocked up on wax I presume...
make*art
by neverAcquiesce on
Sep 24, 2008 10:50 AM CDT
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that's just wrong.
That's the beauty of baseball. You never know what's going to happen until the final out -- Lou
by Emelie on
Sep 24, 2008 10:51 AM CDT
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That's not Wrong,
That’s Rollie.
Disposable dixie cup drinkin... I'm hiding out in the big city blinking...
by N Oakley on
Sep 24, 2008 11:22 AM CDT
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I still hate to see them lose
My head knows it doesn’t matter, but my heart still dips a little when I see that score.
Oh well, I am encouraged by the way we hit Santana in the early going, especially with the CUBS/sCrUBS combo line-up. I know anything can happen, but I do not fear this team in the post-season.
by SuperContext on
Sep 24, 2008 8:26 AM CDT
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Best case scenario
If Zambrano and Harden can win the next two games against the Mets, there’s a good chance that the Mets and Brewers will either be tied or separated by only one game going into Sunday.
That will likely force Santana to pitch on Sunday with everything on the line after a 120+ pitch outing last night. I think the Phillies will have clinched the East, so it may come down to Mets and Brewers having to win Sunday, or even better, that they’re tied after Sunday forcing a one-game playoff for the wild card. That would really scramble their rotations, tax their bullpens and make the survivor that much more vulnerable to the rested Cubs.
Whatever else happens the next few days, Lord please let the Mets and Brewers end up tied after Sunday’s games!
by davenportblue on
Sep 24, 2008 8:28 AM CDT
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I'm too lazy to look this up.
Where would a Mets/Brewers tiebreaker game be held?
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on
Sep 24, 2008 8:29 AM CDT
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New York, I'm pretty sure
I don’t think the Brewers won one tiebreaker advantage
by NittanyCub on
Sep 24, 2008 8:30 AM CDT
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The Brewers
won the tie break with the Cubs, IIRC. We would have had to go to Miller to play a tie breaking game
When you're eight games behind, it's like eight miles; when you're eight games in front, it's like eight inches. ~ Ron Santo
by gwood on
Sep 24, 2008 8:31 AM CDT
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well, gee
too bad that didn’t happen. Any opportunity to throw a no-hitter at Wrigley North.
This comment brought to you by 
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on
Sep 24, 2008 8:41 AM CDT
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I was thinking the same thing
as I was typing my response above. . . Shucks, you mean we have to go play at our other home field ;).
When you're eight games behind, it's like eight miles; when you're eight games in front, it's like eight inches. ~ Ron Santo
by gwood on
Sep 24, 2008 8:47 AM CDT
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Comfirmed.
It would be New York (link)
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
by Trey2317 on
Sep 24, 2008 9:04 AM CDT
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If the Mets finish Saturday with a 1 game lead
My guess is they don’t pitch Santana on Sunday. They hope to win without him so that he’s ready for Game 1 — or, worst case, have him ready for a tie-breaker.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on
Sep 24, 2008 8:34 AM CDT
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OK, I looked it up.
If the Mets and Brewers tie, the tiebreaker game would be at New York.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on
Sep 24, 2008 8:50 AM CDT
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Plus the tie breaker
needs to go about 19 innings.
"Destiny is a matter of choice, not chance"
by MerlinDog on
Sep 24, 2008 8:39 AM CDT
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ah the dream situation
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
by cubswynn on
Sep 24, 2008 9:44 AM CDT
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When I watched the replay
I noticed the “WTF” reaction, but I thought it was directed at the bad luck of the crazy bounce, not at Ronny Cedeno. Marshall was looking right at the play the whole time, and he himself couldn’t field the ball because of the bat head flying right in front of it. Still no excuse to lose focus, even if he wasn’t blaming Ronny.
My next sig line quote will also be from Lou Piniella, and the first word will be either "Look", or "Listen", followed by a comma.
by JohnM on
Sep 24, 2008 8:32 AM CDT
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Playoff at Shea
I’m pretty sure the wild card playoff would be at Shea. Of course, in my earlier post, I should have added that I’d want the exhausted Mets to win the playoff. If the Brewers were to win, we wouldn’t be playing them in the first round anyway.
And on the subject of Marshall’s reaction to the “double bounce” of the bat, it seemed he was reacting to the play, not Cedeno.
by davenportblue on
Sep 24, 2008 8:35 AM CDT
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Gaudin...
… got “pounded?” Huh?
Gaudin most definitely did not give up “four hard hits.” Not even close.
He gave up a bloop double that just dropped in front of Soriano. Then he gave up an infield hit that he made the error on. Then he gave up two singles, neither of which were really hit hard.
How is that getting “pounded?”
visit the mindful mission
by big_lowitzki on
Sep 24, 2008 8:36 AM CDT
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I agree with you
Couple that with the fact that he hasn’t pitched against MLB hitters in a month, and that he just came back from back problems.
by NittanyCub on
Sep 24, 2008 8:38 AM CDT
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Gaudin pitched the other day in Chicago against the Cardinals (Sunday)
My next sig line quote will also be from Lou Piniella, and the first word will be either "Look", or "Listen", followed by a comma.
by JohnM on
Sep 24, 2008 8:44 AM CDT
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I need to quit posting in the mornings.
by NittanyCub on
Sep 24, 2008 9:14 AM CDT
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or drinking in the evenings?
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on
Sep 24, 2008 9:15 AM CDT
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or drinking before posting in the mornings.
The other sports are just sports. Baseball is a love. ~Bryant Gumbel
by Blue W on
Sep 24, 2008 9:29 AM CDT
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Coincidentally enough, I lost my ID this weekend
by NittanyCub on
Sep 24, 2008 9:31 AM CDT
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D'OH!
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on
Sep 24, 2008 9:34 AM CDT
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Looked like Soriano............
………..broke back on that hit by Delgado, and then didn’t really get going forward in full gear until it was too late to catch up to the ball.
With the catcher running, it was too bad that infield dribbler went for a hit and even worse that Gaudin chucked it past Lee at 1B. That said, Gaudin was consistently over 90 MPH with his fastball, but he left too many out over the plate.
"Happiness? A good cigar, a good meal, a good cigar and a good woman - or a bad woman; it depends on how much happiness you can handle." ~ George Burns
by tville on
Sep 24, 2008 8:55 AM CDT
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Getting closer
My thoughts are already consumed by the postseason. I know in the coming weeks it is going to be difficult to concentrate at work with the Cubs in the playoffs.
I know whatever happens is going to happen, but it would be huge for the Cubs if the Mets had to throw Johan to get into the playoffs on Sunday. Otherwise he would be waiting in game 1 assuming we face them. Facing Johan doesn’t scare me, but it isn’t ideal. I realize I’m getting ahead of myself but right now I’m as interested in the Sox/Twins as the Cubs series.
Except tonight, I’m excited to see Z bounce back.
Lets do it Cubbies
by slocs55 on
Sep 24, 2008 8:37 AM CDT
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Lets Go Mets
After hearing the Mets won’t start Santana on Short rest and that he will pitch Sunday, I am rooting for the Mets to win and have to start Santana on Sunday. Then he would, if not starting on short rest wouldn’t pitch until Saturday, although I am sure he would in the playoffs but that still makes him the Game 2 starter at best since he isn’t going on 2 days rest.
And then with Game 3 on Saturday and 4 on Sunday he wont pitch until game 4 on 3 days rest and that is all. I would love the Cubs chances against Santana twice on short rest.
Anyone know if Santana has ever pitched on Short Rest. I couldn’t find any games going through the game logs for his career
by niuhuskie224 on
Sep 24, 2008 8:42 AM CDT
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Santana on Short Rest
after becoming a starter, Johan has started 3 games on 3-days rest. He is 1-1 with a 6.14 ERA in those games, throwing 14.2 innings, allowing 15 hits, 10 runs (all earned), 5 walks, 13 strikeouts and 5 homeruns.
Here’s the direct link
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
by Trey2317 on
Sep 24, 2008 9:08 AM CDT
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things just seem to be falling into place huh?
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
by cubswynn on
Sep 24, 2008 9:47 AM CDT
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Just need the Brewers to cooperate
and force the Mets to throw Santana on Sunday.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
by Trey2317 on
Sep 24, 2008 9:51 AM CDT
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Wow, interesting stuff.
I guess it’s a little harder to control that change-up with a tired arm. Gotta admit – he was damn impressive last night.
The Chicago Cubs: 2008 Central Division Champions
by dat cubfan daver on
Sep 24, 2008 10:55 AM CDT
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Once the Mets tied it up, he was filthy.
None the less, I liked how the team played (for most of the game), and I’ll take my chances against him with the regular lineup out there.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
by Trey2317 on
Sep 24, 2008 10:56 AM CDT
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He's a hell of a pitcher. If I was managing against him, I would
want a lineup of 5 lefthanded hitters and 4 Reed Johnsons.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on
Sep 24, 2008 11:08 AM CDT
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Does this include the playoffs?
I recall he started on short rest against the Yankees in the playoffs one year.
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on
Sep 24, 2008 3:05 PM CDT
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It didn't
I looked it up, and in 2004, he started on 3-days rest after dominating the Yankees in Game 1.
He went 5 innings, allowing 3 hits, 1 run (1 earned), walking 3 and striking out 7 that day.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
by Trey2317 on
Sep 24, 2008 3:14 PM CDT
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Reyes ticked me off last night!
After his base clearing triple in the 6th, I felt his reaction was a little much. Please, your team is trying not to choke for the second year in a row, i’m sure you are excited to not be hitting .160 or whatever you hit last september, but show some class. Even my wife, who is relatively passive when watching a game, gave me a look like WTF is that about.
It feels good to be gearing up to have agnst against potential playoff matchups.
"Bring On The Major Leagues" Stephen Malkmus
by graceunderpressure on
Sep 24, 2008 8:46 AM CDT
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huh?
Do you also criticize Marmol and Z for their emotional celebrations?
I actually appreciated Reyes’ reaction. He got a really big hit, and he celebrated that.
visit the mindful mission
by big_lowitzki on
Sep 24, 2008 8:51 AM CDT
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Actually sometimes Big Z and Marmol do upset me with the over the top emotions
I think it sometimes stirs up the other team and can work against you. But usually I’m just biased and only notice behavior of other teams. I don’t know, I’m just trying to get myself rocked and ready for next week, and I think Reyes is more flash than substance, and he kind of gets under my skin and………….hey why am I defending myself here, I feel like this is therapy or something?
"Bring On The Major Leagues" Stephen Malkmus
by graceunderpressure on
Sep 24, 2008 8:55 AM CDT
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Reyes may be a lot of things
But his career numbers show he’s certainly not more flash than substance.
Even the most ardent Theriot supporters would be foolish to say that the Cubs wouldn’t be better with Reyes at short. Any NL team other than the Phillies would be better than they are with Reyes at short.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on
Sep 24, 2008 8:56 AM CDT
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Even the Marlins?
"Happiness? A good cigar, a good meal, a good cigar and a good woman - or a bad woman; it depends on how much happiness you can handle." ~ George Burns
by tville on
Sep 24, 2008 8:57 AM CDT
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Arguably
Ramirez gets the nod on offense, but I think Reyes is the superior fielder. Right now, you’re probably right, though.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on
Sep 24, 2008 9:04 AM CDT
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I should have said "i feel" instead of " i think"
I feel he is more flash than substance, just my distorted perception and opinion. And comparing Theriot and Reyes is completely unfair, we all realize Theriot isn’t a real shortshop period. Anyway, I would argue though that when you hear about lockerroom or team chemistry issues on the Mets, Reyes is likely in the center. Just an opinion, he reminds of guys I played with in college and those type of players drive you silly.
"Bring On The Major Leagues" Stephen Malkmus
by graceunderpressure on
Sep 24, 2008 9:00 AM CDT
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He's got some maturing to do
But I’d take my chances on that happening. So does Zambrano — who apparently still hasn’t apologized to Piniella for his actions last week.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on
Sep 24, 2008 9:06 AM CDT
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Media boycott by Z?
What the hell?
Nobody cares about your fantasy league team
by carmen_fanzone on
Sep 24, 2008 9:08 AM CDT
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He's got some serious growing up to do.
After reading that, I’m thinking the Cubs could do worse than going with Dempster, Lilly, Harden, Dempster, Lilly in the NLDS.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on
Sep 24, 2008 9:12 AM CDT
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I'm so torn on this rotation.......glad it is not my decision
I’m thinking Dempster or Harden (mostly Harden in game one) Even at his worst Harden only gives up a handful of runs. But you know if Big Z is in this state of mind, he may sulk the whole series. It is almost like he is anticipating not being the game 1 starter.
"Bring On The Major Leagues" Stephen Malkmus
by graceunderpressure on
Sep 24, 2008 9:15 AM CDT
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Didn't he say a few
weeks ago he wanted to pitch in game 3?
by sue369 on
Sep 24, 2008 2:50 PM CDT
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Yeah, I seem to recall him saying that, too.
The Chicago Cubs: 2008 Central Division Champions
by dat cubfan daver on
Sep 24, 2008 2:51 PM CDT
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He also said he didn't care about pitching in the
opener and that Lilly could do it, but we know who ended up starting that game.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on
Sep 24, 2008 2:53 PM CDT
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woah
deja vu
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on
Sep 24, 2008 3:25 PM CDT
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cmon...
Z has hit an emotional high point and low point in the space of two-three weeks Pitching a no-hitter, having to travel for his grandmother’s death, and then pitching very badly. Do you suggest that Fukudome should be benched because he doesn’t talk to reporters?
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on
Sep 24, 2008 9:20 AM CDT
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Where did I say he shouldn't start because he doesn't talk to reporters?
That’s your inference. I just don’t like the way he handles himself when things don’t go his way or he doesn’t get his way.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on
Sep 24, 2008 9:23 AM CDT
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you're the one who suggested
that the rotation should be Demp, Lilly, Harden, Demp, Lilly. What inference was I supposed to make?
He’s an emotional guy. I don’t see significant negativity in that. He can beat up all the gatorade coolers or bats he wants to, so long as he doesn’t get hurt, and he keeps it off the pitcher’s mound. It’s when he gets upset on the MOUND that I worry, and only because it effects his pitching.
He’s a ballplayer, he plays ball. When he does it well, I’m happy, when he does it poorly, I’m not.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on
Sep 24, 2008 9:30 AM CDT
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Not because of his media ban
Because he’s prone to acting like a spoiled brat — and it has a record of affecting his pitching.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on
Sep 24, 2008 9:35 AM CDT
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well, when it effects his play
I’m upset about his play. The results are what concern me. What effects the results is up to him.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on
Sep 24, 2008 9:42 AM CDT
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that's true
But until he proves that he can ignore outside factors, I’m not sure that I want him in Game 1.
But, that’s not my decision, and as you said, Lou has more info.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on
Sep 24, 2008 9:46 AM CDT
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actually it's "affect," but I get what you're saying
That's the beauty of baseball. You never know what's going to happen until the final out -- Lou
by Emelie on
Sep 24, 2008 10:43 AM CDT
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huh.
So much for my english degree.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on
Sep 24, 2008 12:54 PM CDT
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Z is wrong about one thing....
(as per the linked article above) Lou is NOT human..he’s SWEET!!!
"Never. Never. Never. Give up."
Winston Churchill
by cubfever7 on
Sep 24, 2008 10:15 AM CDT
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Dome not talking to reporters and Z not talking to reporters is apples and oranges
"A catchers biggest concern behind the plate is to make his pitcher pitch a little better than he can" Roy Campanella
by Madison Cub Fan on
Sep 24, 2008 9:32 AM CDT
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why?
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on
Sep 24, 2008 9:33 AM CDT
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Well a variety of reasons
A) Dome has been in this country less than a year
B) Domes discpline at the plate early in he season helped the team to start getting more walks
C) Z has been a team leader for a few years, there is a responsibilty that goes with that.
I don’t like the It’s Manny being Manny, nor do I like the Z being Z. Dome being Dome… something I have heard yet.
"A catchers biggest concern behind the plate is to make his pitcher pitch a little better than he can" Roy Campanella
by Madison Cub Fan on
Sep 24, 2008 9:40 AM CDT
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havent heard***
"A catchers biggest concern behind the plate is to make his pitcher pitch a little better than he can" Roy Campanella
by Madison Cub Fan on
Sep 24, 2008 9:41 AM CDT
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fair enough.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on
Sep 24, 2008 9:43 AM CDT
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This is surprising
Even though Big Z is an emotional roller coaster on the field, I usually find his post game interviews to be among the most balanced well thought out I’ve heard. This doesn’t smell good, he clearly is holding onto some resentment about something.
"Bring On The Major Leagues" Stephen Malkmus
by graceunderpressure on
Sep 24, 2008 9:12 AM CDT
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My guess:
He didn’t like finding out that Lou is the sherriff instead of Z.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on
Sep 24, 2008 9:13 AM CDT
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And bad freaking timing as well....
And here’s how it will play out:
He pitches well tonight, boycott over
He pitches like crap, boycott continues
Nobody cares about your fantasy league team
by carmen_fanzone on
Sep 24, 2008 9:16 AM CDT
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He'll be fine.
Let’s not worry too much about whom Zambrano is talking to. Let’s worry about how he pitches tonight. As others have said, he’s been on a roller-coaster the last few weeks, so he probably deserves some slack.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
by Trey2317 on
Sep 24, 2008 9:23 AM CDT
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I don't care who he talks to
I don’t like the way he responds to adversity. This isn’t in reference to his family tragedy — it’s adversity in general.
He blatantly shows up his manager and still hasn’t apologized for it.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on
Sep 24, 2008 9:24 AM CDT
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Not to fan the flame but.........
the Badger has a point about responding to adversity. I love Big Z and thinking he is one intimidating bad man with nasty stuff and love him on the Cubs, but he can respond poorly at times. He struggled for a large part of last year with the contract issue and I really do think where he starts in the playoff rotation COULD impact his attitude. That being said this is the same guy who threw a no hitter during a time of adversity, who freaking knows?
"Bring On The Major Leagues" Stephen Malkmus
by graceunderpressure on
Sep 24, 2008 9:28 AM CDT
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if Lou is a good manager
he’s dealt with it, and just because it hasn’t been reported doesn’t mean it’s not dealt with.
The important thing is whether or not Z pitches well tonight. Everything else is irrelevant.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on
Sep 24, 2008 9:32 AM CDT
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True, Lou will decide what's important --
that’s why I’m blogging and not managing. Hopefully it won’t be a decision based on, “he’ll be an emotional wreck if he doesn’t start game 1.”
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on
Sep 24, 2008 9:37 AM CDT
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I've read that article 3 times now
where does it mention that he hasn’t apologized to Piniella?
I think Zambrano responds in different ways to adversity – he responded to adversity with his shoulder by some the best pitching of his life. He responded to other pitching troubles by being petulant. Sounds like a 27-year old to me.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
by Trey2317 on
Sep 24, 2008 9:33 AM CDT
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Never mind
I found it in Sullivan’s notebook today:
Zambrano admitted it was a “stupid” mistake on his part but never apologized to Piniella afterward for his glaring show of disrespect…
link here
In any case, while I’d rather have apologizing to Lou, I don’t think it will affect his performance.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
by Trey2317 on
Sep 24, 2008 9:54 AM CDT
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or where did we get the idea lou wants an apology?
my gut feeling is lou understands why z was pissed, he understands he made a mistake, and i’m sure he’s over it
i mean c’mon lou had to deal with arod for how many years? i’m sure this is nothing to him
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
by cubswynn on
Sep 24, 2008 9:55 AM CDT
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Another example...
…of the media making someting out of nothing.
I know Sullivan spends a lot of time with the club, but how does he know Zambrano didn’t have a quick one on one discussion with Lou and say he made a mistake. Just because Z hasn’t said anything about that to the media, doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on
Sep 24, 2008 9:58 AM CDT
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And on the day it happened Z said he intended to apologize
“That was stupid by me,” Zambrano said. “I have too many things in my mind, and obviously, it wasn’t a good move. I will apologize to Lou and talk to him.”
So this is Sullivan stirring stuff up, or else Z tried to apologize and got an earful.
My next sig line quote will also be from Lou Piniella, and the first word will be either "Look", or "Listen", followed by a comma.
by JohnM on
Sep 24, 2008 10:02 AM CDT
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Is Sullivan with them 24/7?
How does he know all of this isn’t water under the bridge.
Sounds like he’s fishing for a story.
make*art
by neverAcquiesce on
Sep 24, 2008 10:23 AM CDT
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I agree.
I could be wrong, but this really seems like a non-issue.
The other sports are just sports. Baseball is a love. ~Bryant Gumbel
by Blue W on
Sep 24, 2008 10:03 AM CDT
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it's only a matter of time
before someone tries to start up the edmonds vs z feud again haha
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
by cubswynn on
Sep 24, 2008 10:06 AM CDT
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Theriot is a real SS
Just voting my conscience here… Reyes can rake and run, but his fielding is about as good as TheRiots….
Cubs Karma: Don't take anything for granted.....
by Andre Fonseca on
Sep 24, 2008 11:23 AM CDT
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Your conscience has the baseball IQ of a houseplant.
The Chicago Cubs: 2008 Central Division Champions
by dat cubfan daver on
Sep 24, 2008 11:24 AM CDT
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I'll be flexing my baseball IQ at Wrigley this postseason
have fun watching in TBS with your sweaty keyboard between your legs
Cubs Karma: Don't take anything for granted.....
by Andre Fonseca on
Sep 24, 2008 11:25 AM CDT
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What makes you so sure I don't have tickets, too?
The Chicago Cubs: 2008 Central Division Champions
by dat cubfan daver on
Sep 24, 2008 11:26 AM CDT
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anyway you were the dude who loves ZR
I dont believe in stats but Reyes’s ZR is like last in the majors
Cubs Karma: Don't take anything for granted.....
by Andre Fonseca on
Sep 24, 2008 11:28 AM CDT
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source
Cubs Karma: Don't take anything for granted.....
by Andre Fonseca on
Sep 24, 2008 11:28 AM CDT
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I'll try and ignore the fact that Reyes has...
more total chances, a better range factor, more double plays, and a stronger arm. Yeah…they’re pretty much the same defensive player.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on
Sep 24, 2008 11:31 AM CDT
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and 100 more innings
Cubs Karma: Don't take anything for granted.....
by Andre Fonseca on
Sep 24, 2008 11:33 AM CDT
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And why on earth would Reyes get to play MORE than Theriot?
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on
Sep 24, 2008 11:36 AM CDT
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becuse he smacks the hell
out of the ball
Cubs Karma: Don't take anything for granted.....
by Andre Fonseca on
Sep 24, 2008 11:39 AM CDT
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That's no reason to play a guy.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on
Sep 24, 2008 11:40 AM CDT
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You pick one stat and declare victory?
Disposable dixie cup drinkin... I'm hiding out in the big city blinking...
by N Oakley on
Sep 24, 2008 11:28 AM CDT
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its easier that way
otherwise you have to use math and stuff-
Dude-Reyes would look great in a Cubbie uniform-I’m just saying Theriot is a solid glove
Cubs Karma: Don't take anything for granted.....
by Andre Fonseca on
Sep 24, 2008 11:29 AM CDT
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Are you drunk?
Your 2008 Missouri Tigers! #5 4-0 (0-0). Next up at Nebraska October 4th. Live on ESPN in primetime. Chase Daniel and Jeremy Maclin for Co-Heisman!
by nji232 on
Sep 24, 2008 11:30 AM CDT
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No, he's just a troll...
…who gets off working people up about Ryan Theriot. I shouldn’t have even replied to his post.
The Chicago Cubs: 2008 Central Division Champions
by dat cubfan daver on
Sep 24, 2008 11:32 AM CDT
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Ok I think I'll walk away from this then
Your 2008 Missouri Tigers! #5 4-0 (0-0). Next up at Nebraska October 4th. Live on ESPN in primetime. Chase Daniel and Jeremy Maclin for Co-Heisman!
by nji232 on
Sep 24, 2008 11:32 AM CDT
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sheesh I forgot about that
this is the same dude from the game thread, isn’t it?
That's the beauty of baseball. You never know what's going to happen until the final out -- Lou
by Emelie on
Sep 24, 2008 11:34 AM CDT
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Yuppers.
Notice how I’m not replying? I think I’ve grown.
make*art
by neverAcquiesce on
Sep 24, 2008 11:35 AM CDT
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the troll stuff is old
you sent me a personal email inviting me to comment on Theriot.
Cubs Karma: Don't take anything for granted.....
by Andre Fonseca on
Sep 24, 2008 11:40 AM CDT
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I did.
And, based on your comments in that thread, you only confirmed you have no serious opinions on this topic but intend only to make lame jokes and try to piss people off. Conclusion: Troll.
The Chicago Cubs: 2008 Central Division Champions
by dat cubfan daver on
Sep 24, 2008 11:41 AM CDT
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I think you throw the troll
thing around alot- you are the one who goes ape-Sh*t whenever someone says something halfway nice about the Ragin Cajin
Cubs Karma: Don't take anything for granted.....
by Andre Fonseca on
Sep 24, 2008 11:49 AM CDT
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LOL, not true.
As I told you on the game thread, I’ve gone on record several times declaring my neutrality when it comes to Ryan Theriot. But if you want to find some examples of me going “ape-Sh*t”, please feel free to share.
The Chicago Cubs: 2008 Central Division Champions
by dat cubfan daver on
Sep 24, 2008 11:51 AM CDT
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quote unquote
Your conscience has the baseball IQ of a houseplant.
Cubs Karma: Don't take anything for granted.....
by Andre Fonseca on
Sep 24, 2008 11:52 AM CDT
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For starters, I wouldn't call typing nine words "going apeshit."
In addition, that reaction was less a dig at Ryan Theriot than a point simply emphasizing the ridiculousness of arguing that Jose Reyes is in any way inferior to Theriot in any aspect of the game.
The Chicago Cubs: 2008 Central Division Champions
by dat cubfan daver on
Sep 24, 2008 11:58 AM CDT
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boy
I’d hate to see you react when people get REALLY angry with you.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on
Sep 24, 2008 12:56 PM CDT
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There was that time
you dug flies out of my hair and ate them.
make*art
by neverAcquiesce on
Sep 24, 2008 11:52 AM CDT
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A very touching moment indeed.

As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on
Sep 24, 2008 11:55 AM CDT
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I see France
Disposable dixie cup drinkin... I'm hiding out in the big city blinking...
by N Oakley on
Sep 24, 2008 11:58 AM CDT
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Dude, that was supposed to be our little secret.
The Chicago Cubs: 2008 Central Division Champions
by dat cubfan daver on
Sep 24, 2008 11:59 AM CDT
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So now you're ashamed.
I see how it is.
make*art
by neverAcquiesce on
Sep 24, 2008 12:00 PM CDT
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I'm just...I'm just not ready.
The Chicago Cubs: 2008 Central Division Champions
by dat cubfan daver on
Sep 24, 2008 12:04 PM CDT
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for second base
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
by cubswynn on
Sep 24, 2008 11:30 AM CDT
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Look
You are entitled to your opinion. You just need to make a clear, well positioned argument if you believe you must convert others to yours. Jose Reyes is amazing. In the field and on the base paths.
I like Theriot, but don’t believe he is a top 25 shortstop. The difference between you and I is that I’m not trying to convert anyone to my thinking.
Disposable dixie cup drinkin... I'm hiding out in the big city blinking...
by N Oakley on
Sep 24, 2008 11:34 AM CDT
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Don't waste your time. He's just throwing shit against
teh wall hoping something will stick.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on
Sep 24, 2008 11:35 AM CDT
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Clear. well positioned arguments
have no place on here obviously…
The BCB community believes Theriot is a ‘bad’ defender, anyone who says otherwise gets flamed.
You guys are way fixated on Theriot for some reason I don’t fully understand. I’m just saying Reyes has a draw-back and the drawback is he is not a dependable SS.
On the other hand- Theriot is dependable and he is a Cub so he has my support.
If there was a better SS in AAA or on the roster I’d say make it happen, but he is our 2008 SS. Therefore the full size bust of him along with all the other starters is going to look great in my rec room.
Cubs Karma: Don't take anything for granted.....
by Andre Fonseca on
Sep 24, 2008 3:36 PM CDT
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No, anyone who believes and states that does not get flamed.
Those who state it ad nauseum simply to get a reaction do.
make*art
by neverAcquiesce on
Sep 24, 2008 3:47 PM CDT
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Therefore the full size bust of him along with all the other starters is going to look great in my rec room.
You’re only getting creepier.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on
Sep 24, 2008 3:54 PM CDT
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Does this mean you're leaving?
The Chicago Cubs: 2008 Central Division Champions
by dat cubfan daver on
Sep 24, 2008 3:55 PM CDT
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I do not recall anyone saying he was a "bad" defender.
I believe the message is that he is not a great shortstop. This argument started with the sector of the fan base wanting Ryan on the all-star team ahead of Reyes, Rollins and Ramirez.
This argument divided the site. Those using statistics cited OPS, SB%, Zone Rating (at the time), and slugging. Theriot lovers argued Fielding %, Batting Average and “intangibles.”
You’ve offered nothing new. Have solved no argument. Further, you have resorted to overall site bashing comments and personal crap.
In fact, to state the BCB communited believes anything about Theriot as an absolute is bullshit. We accept him as our SS this year and root for him to succeed. Half believe he is a decent starting SS, the other half hope for an upgrade in the offseason.
Stop painting everyone with the same brush and piss off.
Disposable dixie cup drinkin... I'm hiding out in the big city blinking...
by N Oakley on
Sep 24, 2008 3:56 PM CDT
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That's what I was gonna say but didn't.
Gonna do my part to turn ya green.
make*art
by neverAcquiesce on
Sep 24, 2008 4:09 PM CDT
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TheRiot is not an allstar
No doubt- but I had people flaming the crap outta me for saying at least he was better than Cedeno.
“Divided the site” I can see that there is a witch-hunt for any Theriot supporters on here.
I’m not into personal attacks (daver, drewid). but I enjoy a little humor.
Sorry to ruin your happy fun time
Cubs Karma: Don't take anything for granted.....
by Andre Fonseca on
Sep 24, 2008 4:31 PM CDT
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you reap
what you sow.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on
Sep 24, 2008 4:40 PM CDT
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Look, dude, if you're really not a troll...
…then let’s agree right now to drop the Theriot thing. It’s pretty clear to me that you’re hear to provoke people, pick fights and maybe promote your rather tepid blog.
If that’s not the case, well, you can prove me wrong by letting your weak arguments about Theriot stand on their own shaky merits and leaving the subject alone from now on..
The Chicago Cubs: 2008 Central Division Champions
by dat cubfan daver on
Sep 24, 2008 4:54 PM CDT
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Drop the Theriot thing
Let’s is plural -
So if and when Theriot bashing occurs I should be given some leeway in defending a player that I am thankful is starting at short.
Cubs Karma: Don't take anything for granted.....
by Andre Fonseca on
Sep 24, 2008 5:38 PM CDT
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Fine, just don't bring it up.
The Chicago Cubs: 2008 Central Division Champions
by dat cubfan daver on
Sep 24, 2008 7:26 PM CDT
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Um, no, I wasn't the dude who loves ZR.
I was the dude who’s not afraid to admit I don’t know enough about defensive metrics to even attempt to wield them in a debate. I suggest you follow suit because, as you ably demonstrated in the game thread the other day, you clearly are no sabremagician yourself.
The Chicago Cubs: 2008 Central Division Champions
by dat cubfan daver on
Sep 24, 2008 11:30 AM CDT
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where's colin when we need him?
That's the beauty of baseball. You never know what's going to happen until the final out -- Lou
by Emelie on
Sep 24, 2008 11:31 AM CDT
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what the hell
does that have to do with anything? You think we should think you’re smarter because you have tickets?
Yeah, ok.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on
Sep 24, 2008 12:55 PM CDT
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Typical troll move.
The Chicago Cubs: 2008 Central Division Champions
by dat cubfan daver on
Sep 24, 2008 1:04 PM CDT
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indeed.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on
Sep 24, 2008 1:05 PM CDT
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I'd trade smarter for tickets
but i see you are all out :-)
Cubs Karma: Don't take anything for granted.....
by Andre Fonseca on
Sep 24, 2008 3:37 PM CDT
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if Chewbacca is a wookie
you must acquit.
Problem is, you’re just an a$$hole.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on
Sep 24, 2008 3:54 PM CDT
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tsk tsk tsk
didn’t your mom teach you not to call people bad names?
Cubs Karma: Don't take anything for granted.....
by Andre Fonseca on
Sep 24, 2008 4:13 PM CDT
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she told me to call people what they are.
and not hide behind silly rules.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on
Sep 24, 2008 4:20 PM CDT
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im crying now
my keyboard is getting rusty-
dont take it personal man- Its really not a big deal.
Cubs are going to the playoffs, have a little fun
Cubs Karma: Don't take anything for granted.....
by Andre Fonseca on
Sep 24, 2008 4:21 PM CDT
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I am.
usually, I don’t play with fools, but in your case, I’ve made an exception.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on
Sep 24, 2008 4:22 PM CDT
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Wow. Really? Wow.
Theriot is nowhere NEAR as good a fielder as Reyes.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on
Sep 24, 2008 11:25 AM CDT
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Can I have what you're smoking? Is it legal?
That's the beauty of baseball. You never know what's going to happen until the final out -- Lou
by Emelie on
Sep 24, 2008 11:25 AM CDT
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Of course not.
That’s why it’s good.
make*art
by neverAcquiesce on
Sep 24, 2008 11:33 AM CDT
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I guess we'll agree
that we already had this discussion.
He is a real SS, says so on his Topps card.
Disposable dixie cup drinkin... I'm hiding out in the big city blinking...
by N Oakley on
Sep 24, 2008 11:27 AM CDT
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Can't agree...
…on this one.
Theriot has held it together in the field with duct tape and super glue and I am quite surprised his double clutch/mediocre arm has not been exposed more.
Lets hope it stays that way through the playoffs.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on
Sep 24, 2008 11:29 AM CDT
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Hunter Pence got him once this year
A fast runner who runs out of the box can beat his arm to first on a routine play
Your 2008 Missouri Tigers! #5 4-0 (0-0). Next up at Nebraska October 4th. Live on ESPN in primetime. Chase Daniel and Jeremy Maclin for Co-Heisman!
by nji232 on
Sep 24, 2008 11:31 AM CDT
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a slow one can beat him too...
if they hit the ball more than 5 steps to either side of him.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on
Sep 24, 2008 11:32 AM CDT
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Cuban will just have to sign Furcal this offseason
That will take care of this issue
Your 2008 Missouri Tigers! #5 4-0 (0-0). Next up at Nebraska October 4th. Live on ESPN in primetime. Chase Daniel and Jeremy Maclin for Co-Heisman!
by nji232 on
Sep 24, 2008 11:33 AM CDT
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Regardless...
…of how this season goes, it will be interesting to see if the Cubs do try to upgrade at SS.
I have said this before, but I really think Theriot reminds Lou of his old teamate – Bucky Dent. Dent didn’t have a great arm or exceptional range, but he was steady as a rock on the routine plays. Theriot is actually a much better hitter than Dent, but Lou saw someting in him to send Izturis on his way.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on
Sep 24, 2008 11:37 AM CDT
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Yeah, his annoying habit of grabbing his teammates balls.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on
Sep 24, 2008 11:38 AM CDT
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I agree with this.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on
Sep 24, 2008 12:57 PM CDT
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Just what we need,
a shortstop coming off back surgery!
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on
Sep 24, 2008 3:17 PM CDT
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Okay, so let's take your contentions at face value.
If:
1) Jose Reyes hits better.
2) Jose Reyes runs the bases better.
3) They are equally valuable as fielders.
Then… THERIOT is the real shortstop?
Seriously?
I’m sorry, but Theriot is struggling to provide league average offense, and Jose Reyes is hitting nearly as well as Aramis Ramirez. There is not a comparison here.
by cwyers on
Sep 24, 2008 12:56 PM CDT
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it's on!
(gets popcorn)
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on
Sep 24, 2008 12:57 PM CDT
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Yeah, c'mon, Andre...
…drag out your ZR argument now.
The Chicago Cubs: 2008 Central Division Champions
by dat cubfan daver on
Sep 24, 2008 1:06 PM CDT
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There's a fine distinction to be made here.
This season, so far, Theriot and Reyes have provided roughly the same defensive value, at least as far as we can measure it. The difference is, we have a lot of data (past seasons ZR, scouting data, age, etc.) to suggest that Reyes has a higher true talent level than Theriot going forward.
by cwyers on
Sep 24, 2008 1:40 PM CDT
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And deep-down we know that Reyes is a better player. We don't need
past seasons ZR, scouting data or anything else. The eyes don’t lie.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on
Sep 24, 2008 1:44 PM CDT
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The eyes lie all the time.
Derek Jeter is just one example. Sample data lies all the time. Everything lies as often as it can get away with it. The key is to get as much information as possible, because the more info you have, the more likely you are to derive the correct answer from it.
by cwyers on
Sep 24, 2008 1:47 PM CDT
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No they don't. Experience tells you when a
player is better. If you’ve seen enough baseball played, you know when a player is better. You can drag out all of the stats and tratings that you want, but experience will tell you who is the better player.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on
Sep 24, 2008 1:52 PM CDT
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Well that's a tautology, isn't it?
You’ve essentially decided that you know better than the “stats” (which are really nothing more or less than a record of what occured on the field), and your evidence is that you know better than the stats. There’s really no arguement to be had here, and I’m not going to waste my time chasing my own tail.
by cwyers on
Sep 24, 2008 2:14 PM CDT
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But, is your tail scrappy?
Disposable dixie cup drinkin... I'm hiding out in the big city blinking...
by N Oakley on
Sep 24, 2008 2:15 PM CDT
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My only point is that stats are not
the be-all and end-all. Some of the evaluation has to have a human element. Stats can be interpreted many ways. There are many factors that stats don’t take into consideration. Untimately the final evaluation will be made by the individual not the stat.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on
Sep 24, 2008 2:49 PM CDT
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So how much baseball is enough?
That’s the crux of the problem with that argument. A .300 hitter can appear to be worse that a .250 hitter over the course of 20-25 games. A good defensive player can look mediocre, and a bad one can look great. Looking at a record of what the players actually did in totalitay is useful…no?
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on
Sep 24, 2008 2:34 PM CDT
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This logic you are using.
Is it contagious?
Disposable dixie cup drinkin... I'm hiding out in the big city blinking...
by N Oakley on
Sep 24, 2008 2:37 PM CDT
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get it off me
GET IT OFF ME!!!!
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on
Sep 24, 2008 2:47 PM CDT
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Aliens?
“Game over, maaaan!”
The Chicago Cubs: 2008 Central Division Champions
by dat cubfan daver on
Sep 24, 2008 2:48 PM CDT
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Willie Mays- you are the man!
I agree- fielding stats are notoriously unreliable for judging a player.
Reyes can rake and he can make some awesome plays, however he also bumbles up routine plays trying to sidearm/Nomar the ball or do some twisty crap.
I like TheRiot’s D at Short- I’m not trying to say he is a better all around player than Reyes, I am just saying that Theriot is all-around more awesome because he is a Cub….
And from everything I have seen- Theriot is much better SS than Cedeno- he is not a better SS than everyone who has ever played the game but he is solid at SS.
And
I love him
Cubs Karma: Don't take anything for granted.....
by Andre Fonseca on
Sep 24, 2008 3:15 PM CDT
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"Theriot is all-around more awesome"
my 3rd grade dissertation.
"Chase Daniel has more touchdowns (seven) than incompletions (six) the past two weeks. Which is just silly." Pat Forde, ESPN
by PurpleLineToWrigley on
Sep 24, 2008 3:16 PM CDT
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sorry
my baseball IQ is = Aloe-Vera
Cubs Karma: Don't take anything for granted.....
by Andre Fonseca on
Sep 24, 2008 3:25 PM CDT
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No but seriously.
Theriot=morzz awezome. You convinced me.
"Chase Daniel has more touchdowns (seven) than incompletions (six) the past two weeks. Which is just silly." Pat Forde, ESPN
by PurpleLineToWrigley on
Sep 24, 2008 3:39 PM CDT
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I was thinking more along the lines of a fern.
The Chicago Cubs: 2008 Central Division Champions
by dat cubfan daver on
Sep 24, 2008 3:54 PM CDT
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Aloe Vera is a Fern
Cubs Karma: Don't take anything for granted.....
by Andre Fonseca on
Sep 24, 2008 4:43 PM CDT
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Wow, are you a botanist?
The Chicago Cubs: 2008 Central Division Champions
by dat cubfan daver on
Sep 24, 2008 4:55 PM CDT
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maybe you
should open your eyes. In everything that matters — range, arm strength, speed, accuracy — Cedeno has better numbers.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on
Sep 24, 2008 3:26 PM CDT
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but yet Cedeno plays like crap
and screws ball games up- these boards are like some weird corner of the earth where people think Cedeno is a good player.
Cedeno chokes on important plays, he screws up in the basepaths, he overplays his position, throws balls in the stands, and makes throws that even DLee cant dig. Did I mention he has no plate discipline and strikes out too much?
All the stats in the world are not going to make Cedeno play well at SS.
Sorry man- Lou can see he is junk, I watch enough games to see he is junk- I honestly wish he wasn’t bad or we could trade him but nobody wants him.
Cubs Karma: Don't take anything for granted.....
by Andre Fonseca on
Sep 24, 2008 4:20 PM CDT
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the stats
are a numerical representation of what he does and what he is.
I don’t expect you to understand.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on
Sep 24, 2008 4:21 PM CDT
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Sabermetrics
Pretty much admits that defensive stats are no good. There are lots and lots of ways to crunch defensive stats but no one has made a fool-proof way to value defensive stats.
This plus/minus thing is pretty good but it still amounts to a lot of human judgment weighed in on every single play.
I totally get the fact that you think i am an idiot and a jerk and everything else- do you want to drop at and talk civil or are you going to keep flaming?
Cubs Karma: Don't take anything for granted.....
by Andre Fonseca on
Sep 24, 2008 4:38 PM CDT
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you think I'm flaming you?
you have not yet begun to be flamed.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on
Sep 24, 2008 4:40 PM CDT
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Really?
I know plenty of sabermetricians (like, well, myself) that believe that there are solid fielding metrics – as with anything in sabermetrics, you have to be careful of making conclusions based upon small sample size, but that’s true of offense as well.
But systems like PMR, UZR and SAFE are robust and do tell us a lot about the ability to make plays on defense. (RZR and ZR aren’t as robust, but they do track pretty well with the better measures, especially if you rework them as a plus/minus rating.)
by cwyers on
Sep 24, 2008 5:01 PM CDT
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See
That’s a productive comment!
I was able to read it without wincing, I learned about some fielding stats that I never heard of before and nobody swore!
Here is my general gripe about fielding stats:
How do they account for special situations like when guys are playing for a double-play, or when you have a real good 3B who plays off the line, or when you have to play a little one way or the other because you have a power pitcher throwing?
They really can’t take all this into account unless you subjectively evaluate each play for effectiveness. Then you are back to looking at each play and assigning some version of errors.
Cubs Karma: Don't take anything for granted.....
by Andre Fonseca on
Sep 24, 2008 5:32 PM CDT
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Over time, those things even out.
Think of batting average for a second. Some players have certain skills – like being quick, or hitting a lot of line drives – that make them able to hit for a higher batting average.
But every player hits some seeing-eye grounders and Texas Leaguer singles – and in the short run, a player can rack up a lot of “cheap” base hits and look just like the guy that gets base hits through actual talent.
(When I say the short run, incidently, I don’t just mean a week or a month. Remember when Freddy Sanchez won the batting title?)
by cwyers on
Sep 24, 2008 5:53 PM CDT
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seen this
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/unfiltered/?p=1025
Cubs Karma: Don't take anything for granted.....
by Andre Fonseca on
Sep 25, 2008 2:13 PM CDT
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Makes sense.
And that’s why I’ll be the first to admit that I’m still rather mystified by defensive stats. Hell, I’m still working on getting comfortable with the offensive ones.
The Chicago Cubs: 2008 Central Division Champions
by dat cubfan daver on
Sep 24, 2008 1:50 PM CDT
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If you hate sabermagicians...
all stats are offensive.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on
Sep 24, 2008 1:50 PM CDT
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Definitely. He's an elite shortstop who's only going to get better.
The Chicago Cubs: 2008 Central Division Champions
by dat cubfan daver on
Sep 24, 2008 10:59 AM CDT
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huh?
More flash than substance?
Reyes already has 71 triples in his short career – a Mets record.
He has a line of .300/.361/.483 OPS: 844, OPS+: 123, 52 SBs, 109 R, 200 H
Yea… just flash.
???
visit the mindful mission
by big_lowitzki on
Sep 24, 2008 9:03 AM CDT
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not to be defensive, but I'm not a sabormetrics (sp) kind of guy
I would be the worst GM known to man, because I would make decisions based on which players have talent AND don’t rub me the wrong way. I see a difference between emotion like Big Z and show boating ego maniacs like Reyes. But this is still just percepiton based on what I see, of course I don’t know any of these guys
"Bring On The Major Leagues" Stephen Malkmus
by graceunderpressure on
Sep 24, 2008 9:18 AM CDT
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I think the point b_l made in his first response
is that you’re emotions are clouded by whose on “your” team
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on
Sep 24, 2008 9:20 AM CDT
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a lot of people think
a pitcher who breaks a bat over his thigh when he’s winning is, in fact, a showboating egomaniac, for example
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on
Sep 24, 2008 9:21 AM CDT
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I suppose.
but I think those people should take a pill. :D
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on
Sep 24, 2008 9:22 AM CDT
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Sure, because he's a Cub
But you’d feel differently if he was a Cardinal
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on
Sep 24, 2008 9:23 AM CDT
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no, actually
I wouldn’t. I would think they’re both silly, but I wouldn’t take it as anything other than expressing emotion loudly. Really.
But I’m from NY, so expressing emotion loudly is something I do all the time.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on
Sep 24, 2008 9:26 AM CDT
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Fair enough
All anyone can expect is consistency.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on
Sep 24, 2008 9:27 AM CDT
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huh?
So Reyes pumping his fists and pointing to his teammates is bad.
Marmol and Z pumping their fists and pointing to the sky and breaking bats over their knees is okay?
Interesting…
visit the mindful mission
by big_lowitzki on
Sep 24, 2008 9:55 AM CDT
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Look, we all know what "more flash than substance" means
and its nothing to do with stats
Reed Ballgame - best CF in the MLB
by californiachicagoan on
Sep 24, 2008 2:40 PM CDT
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umm...
… doesn’t the stats show the substance?
visit the mindful mission
by big_lowitzki on
Sep 24, 2008 3:52 PM CDT
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The Cubs lead the league in hotdogs so it is hypocritical to poke at Reyes
I wasn’t upset by his reaction anyway.
by MDBNIU on
Sep 24, 2008 9:40 AM CDT
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I wasn't upset by his reaction either, but I
think you are overstating the hotdog factor on this team. Other than Z and Soriano, your rarely see any reaction from the players on this team. In comparison to other players in the league, that seems about normal.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on
Sep 24, 2008 9:54 AM CDT
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don't forget aramis, edmonds, and marmol
edmonds and aramis loves to pose for their homeruns and marmol’s fist pump almost always happens
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
by cubswynn on
Sep 24, 2008 9:58 AM CDT
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I have actually been surprised
by the lack of posing by Edmonds. All i have noticed him doing after he makes contact is drop the bat, drop his head and start running the bases. To be honest, I was expecting more hot dogging out of him, so IMO I wouldn’t put him on your list.
Ramirez does pose, but I don’t think it is for an unreasonable amount of time. The ones that bug me are the ones who slowly walk up the first baseline (ala Bonds)
Marmol . . . at least he isn’t as bad as K-Rod
When you're eight games behind, it's like eight miles; when you're eight games in front, it's like eight inches. ~ Ron Santo
by gwood on
Sep 24, 2008 10:02 AM CDT
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oh and don't get me wrong
my posting history will show i have NO problem with someone posing….i’m just pointing out z and sori aren’t the only ones
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
by cubswynn on
Sep 24, 2008 10:07 AM CDT
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No worries
When you're eight games behind, it's like eight miles; when you're eight games in front, it's like eight inches. ~ Ron Santo
by gwood on
Sep 24, 2008 10:08 AM CDT
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