Andre Dawson Left Out Of Hall Again
by Al on Jan 12, 2009 1:08 PM CST
in News
187 comments
Congratulations to Jim Rice and Rickey Henderson, who were elected to the Hall of Fame today, Rice in his last year of eligibility.
The good news for Andre is that his vote total increased to 67 percent, meaning he has a pretty good shot at getting in next year.
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Hopefully next year is the year for the Hawk
Anyone know who will be first time eligible next year?
by LT on Jan 12, 2009 1:10 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
I was just looking that up myself...
Some interesting names, but no one with the ridiculous qualifications Henderson had.
by MarchHare on Jan 12, 2009 1:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Larkin and Alomar I believe
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
by bren on Jan 12, 2009 1:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Barry Larkin leads the class so next year could be Andre's year
by rlpete on Jan 12, 2009 1:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think Alomar would be a head of Larkin
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
by bren on Jan 12, 2009 1:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
They're both terrific, HOF caliber players
who simply did not get much respect when they played. I have a feeling both will struggle to make it. Alomar especially, who had a prickly reputation and that famous spitting incident that is going to keep him off some ballots.
If Rice gets in, Dawson has to go too. And hopefully Blyleven will finally go next season too.
by Josh77 on Jan 12, 2009 1:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Larkin
I’m biased toward NL players. Larkin was the best NL shortstop of his time. He was in his prime during Ozzie Smith’s declining years. There’s no question that Barry was a better hitter than Ozzie was. Larkin was a shortstop who won a MVP and played with a World Series winner. He also won some Gold Gloves. I think he’ll make it to Cooperstown, but something tells me it won’t be next season.
"The big possum walks late." - Harry Caray
by memphiscub on Jan 12, 2009 2:17 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
There's no question
that Larkin was the best NL shortstop of the 1990s. The problem is, how do his stats compare to the shortstops that followed him like Alex Rodriguez, Derek Jeter, Miguel Tejada, etc. Larkin’s counting stats, 2340 hits and 198 HRs, don’t look as impressive in this offensive era as they would have in the early 90s.
I have a feeling that once Bert Blyleven gets in, Barry Larkin will be the subject of the biggest HoF debate.
by Josh77 on Jan 13, 2009 1:54 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Larkin and Trammel are almost the same player on paper and were
each as vital to their teams during both the good and awful years. Both labored in the shadow of Ripken and “the streak.”
I believe both should be in, however, I also believe if one gets in, the other should follow.
by N Oakley on Jan 13, 2009 7:36 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with you
I don’t think most BBWAA members do.
by Josh77 on Jan 13, 2009 11:34 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
This stinks.
It just flat-out stinks.
by NWIowaCubFan on Jan 12, 2009 1:11 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Getting better
It took Rice 15 years Dawson is 8% away with 8 years to go…at least it seems like he will be in. I am so biased though, in my mind the guy is a first ballot unanimous HOFer :)
by jeff_pico on Jan 12, 2009 1:12 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
1 in 20 voters didn't vote for Ricky
We need to just nuke the BBWAA from orbit. It’s the only way to be sure.
by Wreckard on Jan 12, 2009 1:13 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
That might be just a bit exteme.
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on Jan 12, 2009 1:25 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
And then we should find each individual piece of space dust
And set it on fire.
The writers are so goddamn self-important. It makes you wonder just how much of an honor this really is.
The worst beer I had was pretty good.
by Worf on Jan 12, 2009 1:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I would like to point out
that any time you have a group of people, you will always have a small percentage of idiots.
These are the same people that go to a sporting event and throw things on the field, ride the CTA without their pants and so on.
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on Jan 12, 2009 1:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Huh?
I rode the CTA without pants on every day for years. Of course I was wearing a skirt as it was a pro dress job :).
Barbara V. October 14, 1941 - December 19, 2008. A great lady who was a friend to all and like a second mom to her children's friends (she was my best friend's mom)
by cubstoseriesby100 on Jan 12, 2009 1:38 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Though...
he might be referring to a stunt pulled by Improve Everywhere. They have a “No Pants Subway Day” where if you want to participate you ride the subway without pants.
Read Here. Though there is no nudity, it might be NSFW depending on where you work.
by CubFan81 on Jan 12, 2009 2:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
5 percent of them
Didn’t vote for Henderson.
Those people should have their BWAA cards removed.
From their mouth after the cards were jammed in their asses.
The worst beer I had was pretty good.
by Worf on Jan 12, 2009 1:38 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Voting by definition is expressing an opinion.
Now, if a BBWA member has an opinion different from the majority, I don’t have a problem with that. As long as they can write an argument explaining their reasons.
The problem is writers who use their vote to make a statement. Those are the people that the BBWA should take a look at and see if they want them to remain as part of their organization.
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on Jan 12, 2009 1:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
One guy's argument....
“Oh, I forgot he was on there. I would absolutely vote for him if I could do it over”.
Nobody cares about your fantasy baseball team
by carmen_fanzone on Jan 12, 2009 2:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That's a mistake a writer made
and he has admitted not voting for Henderson was a mistake. I bet he will be extra careful in future years to ensure that a mistake isn’t made again. If not, then the BBWA should take a look at whether he should continue to be invited to be a member.
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on Jan 12, 2009 2:23 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
My question....
…how is that mistake made? Considering the talk from the get go was that Henderson was a shoe in, how does a writer miss that?
Nobody cares about your fantasy baseball team
by carmen_fanzone on Jan 13, 2009 8:21 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Perhaps
its my military background speaking, but I think you don’t miss that. Its called attention to detail, just like the articles get prior to sending, so either the writer voted half assed, or had another motive.
I believe that was an intentional act. The reprocussions were not what he had expected though, so he retracted it.
But I must add, I had no idea who Corky was prior to his gaffe.
by chrisw95 on Jan 13, 2009 8:26 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
There was a Fanshot posted by StevenABQ a few days ago...
…that’s provides further details and some discussion on the writer who left Henderson off.
RIP Ron Asheton (1948-2009)
by dat cubfan daver on Jan 13, 2009 11:49 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
And sometimes...
…you even get a large percentage of idiots!
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Jan 12, 2009 1:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
"F*ckin' A!"
Wait a minute... who am I here?
by malicedoom on Jan 12, 2009 2:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Totally inexplicable and absurd.
…arguably one of the 15 greatest baseball players to ever wear a uniform.
New sig currently under construction
by JB 23 on Jan 12, 2009 7:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
So...
in about ten years time, will the Boston fans be loud enough to elect Varitek over anyone else??
Sorry, but although I think that Rice is borderline, I was able to see both play, and Dawson intimidated pitchers FAR more than Rice.
You can blame Wrigley fir being a “hitter park” but if they elected Rice, they should have elected Dawson at the same time.
by chrisw95 on Jan 12, 2009 1:14 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
I'm guessing they just wanted another speaker besides Rickey at the ceremony :)
by MarchHare on Jan 12, 2009 1:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, hopefully
we will see the Hawk there next year, if not, we should post a pic of him with a NY cap on and see if we can fool the HOF voters. LOL
by chrisw95 on Jan 12, 2009 1:20 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Dawson had the misfortune of playing
most of his career with a team that essentially no longer exists. There’s no longer anyone to advocate for Dawson form the HOF from Montreal and I think that has slowed his vote totals.
I think he will eventually get it but it is taking longer due to most of his career being spent in Montreal.
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on Jan 12, 2009 1:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Carter Only Expo
Carter is the only Expo in the Hall. With Raines only getting 22.4% of the vote, it doesn’t look like Rock will make it. Jeff Reardon is already off the ballot. Pedro Martinez, if he gets to Cooperstown, will go in as a Red Sox. Dawson is the last real Expo hope.
"The big possum walks late." - Harry Caray
by memphiscub on Jan 12, 2009 2:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Dawson
will likely go in as a Cub if he is elected, even if his best years were in Montreal.
You’re forgetting someone else. Vladimir Guerrero. If Guerrero leaves the Angels when his contract is up after this season, there’s a real chance he goes in as an Expo. If he re-ups with LAA, then he’ll likely be the first Angel to go in.
Vlad is almost a surefire HoFer. He’s only 32 and he’s already got 2136 hits and 392 HRs. 3000 and 500 are very likely.
by Josh77 on Jan 13, 2009 1:59 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Vlad as Expo, Ryan as Angel
I forgot about how much Vlad did in Montreal. That franchise has been off the radar screen for a long time now. He could be another Expos HOF’er.
I didn’t realize that no one has gone into the Hall as an Angel. I wonder if the Hall of Fame would have put an Angels logo on Nolan Ryan’s plaque in Cooperstown, if the HOF was doing the choosing when Ryan was inducted. I think Ryan did more for both the Angels and Astros than he did for the Rangers.
"The big possum walks late." - Harry Caray
by memphiscub on Jan 13, 2009 12:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
wasn’t there a discussion the other day that it was the hall of FAME, and not the hall of statistics? If that’s the case, Dawson shouldn’t be, right? Since he less famous than Rice because he played most of his career in Montreal?
by scrappywhiteguy on Jan 12, 2009 5:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I have to
learn Photo Shop. That’s too cool.
by NWIowaCubFan on Jan 12, 2009 1:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
photoshop?
Its not photoshop…Andre played for the Red Sox for 2 years lol
by jeff_pico on Jan 12, 2009 1:30 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
My bad
You are correct, sir. My apologies.
by NWIowaCubFan on Jan 12, 2009 1:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
What's the over/under
On how many times Rickey says “Rickey” during his speech?
by gocubsgo22 on Jan 12, 2009 3:20 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Rickey Henderson's gotta do
what Rickey Henderson’s gotta do.
make*art
by neverAcquiesce on Jan 12, 2009 5:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Does Rickey like his chicken spicy?
RIP Ron Asheton (1948-2009)
by dat cubfan daver on Jan 12, 2009 5:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I smell what The Rick is cooking.
make*art
by neverAcquiesce on Jan 12, 2009 5:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Ricky's gonna get you Kramer.
http://thegettinplace.blogspot.com/
by TheTruth11 on Jan 12, 2009 7:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
What's the over/under
On how many times Rickey says “Rickey” during his speech?
by gocubsgo22 on Jan 12, 2009 3:25 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
What's the over/under...
… that Rickey can even complete a speech?
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Jan 12, 2009 5:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Why?
He’s not a moron, he’s just a nut.
by the nth on Jan 12, 2009 5:53 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Point taken.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Jan 12, 2009 5:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Rice deserved to be in.
So does Dawson, but he’ll get there, too.
Rice was a monster in his prime. He just had the bad luck of falling off the face of the planet after the 1986 season at age 33, and winding up like 2% short of big milestones in almost every category.
Almost 2500 hits. Almost 1500 RBI. Almost 400 HR. Almost a .300 lifetime average. An MVP, and about 5 more top 5 finishes.
If he’d managed to do anything in 1987, when every other player in the league was hitting those definitely-not-juiced baseballs into orbit, he would have made the Hall 10 years ago.
Now that Rice is out of the way, the press can start to focus on raising awareness for the Hawk. Didn’t one writer justify not picking Dawson based on the fact that the reporter, personally, didn’t have enough “awareness” of Hawk when he was in Montreal? What in blazes is that? It’s the guy’s job to watch baseball!
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
by D98 on Jan 12, 2009 2:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Awful lot of "almosts" in there.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Jan 12, 2009 2:25 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Rice Reminds Me of Dale Murphy
Anybody with half a brain between 1982 and 1987 would have thought Dale Murphy was going to be a Hall of Famer. He was a two-time MVP. However, he fell off horribly after 1987. Murphy “almost” got 400 HR’s with 398. That was back when 400 HR’s meant something. If Murphy could have had two more good seasons than he had, I believe there would already be a plaque for him in Cooperstown. As it turns out, he simply faded too quickly to be a HOF’er.
"The big possum walks late." - Harry Caray
by memphiscub on Jan 12, 2009 2:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Murphy is the poster boy for the hasty career collapse.
It actually started in 1986. He benefitted from the crazy summer of 1987, but after that, the decline was quick and unmerciful. Sometimes when you lose it, you lose it for good.
(Murphy’s early-30’s swoon is like 95% of the reason that I’m worried about DLee.)
I still can’t believe that Murphy couldn’t even hit one lousy HR in Colorado. For cryin out loud, MLB pitchers, couldn’t someone have tipped him off for a fastball in a blowout game to get him to 400?
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
by D98 on Jan 12, 2009 11:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That's the point, though.
Why the insane focus on the round milestone numbers? Is 301 wins really that much better than 287? Is 3012 hits infinitely better than 2946?
Rice has a better “peak year” argument than most marginal HOFers, and he got in after a 15-year wait. He probably would have had a 5-year wait if he’d had a tiny percentage more production in his fall-off years, because he would have hit some of those career milestones. As it is, he had to wait. And that’s OK.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
by D98 on Jan 12, 2009 11:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I saw both play as well.
As far as who intimidated pitchers more, not having been a pitcher at the time, I can’t say. If you mean Dawson looked like more of a badass up there the way he waved the bat behind his head like a toothpick, well, to a fan, I agree that looked pretty cool. But since Rice had a higher slugging percentage and batting average for his career, I doubt pitchers were thrilled to face him either. For a fan to say one player intimidated pitchers FAR more than another is pure conjecture and in this case probably based on bias toward the Cub player.
As a Cub, Dawson failed to reach base at or worse than the league average four of his six years. That’s the league average. Not the All-Star team average but the entire league. So someone was getting him out whether they were intimidated or not.
by the nth on Jan 12, 2009 6:30 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Truthfully,
its a matter of opinion, but regardless of statistics, both players were intergral to their teams, and to the game in their era. Did they dominate? I think so. I also think that Dawson was a better all around player, therefore should be in prior to Rice.
I can only hope, that The Haek will make it into the HOF next year, and this will all be a moot discussion.
Oh, and we can win a WS so we can shut the news outlets and other teams fans the hell up.
by chrisw95 on Jan 12, 2009 7:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Both deserve HOF
But how do they overlook Blyleven year after year with his 3700 K’s? I always thougfht 3000 K’s was an automatic HOF vote, then again Lee Smith………….and Mark McGuire, but he may be another story.
by cubssouvenirman on Jan 12, 2009 1:20 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Haven't you heard?
3000 K’s mean nothing if you don’t have those 300 wins to go with them.
"I don't know, I think the Bears should just defer so they don't have to put their offense out there to start" -Tony Kornhesier
by rea5661 on Jan 12, 2009 7:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Since the hall of fame link Al gave isn't working right now
The front page of Baseball Reference has the voting totals.
Old Style is the nectar of life.
by Mordecai on Jan 12, 2009 1:21 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Interesting tidbits
Dawson only went up from 65.9% to 67.0% and Burt Blyleven went from 61.9% to 62.7%.
Old Style is the nectar of life.
by Mordecai on Jan 12, 2009 1:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
It makes you think
that the BB writers who don’t like them aren’t likely to change their minds next year. Or later.
by NWIowaCubFan on Jan 12, 2009 1:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think you may be...
…looking at another Ron Santo scenerio with Blyleven.
I do think Dawson gets in. It may take 1-3 more years, but he should make it.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Jan 12, 2009 1:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
With no slam dunk hall of famers on
next year’s ballot, it might help Dawson’s cause.
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on Jan 12, 2009 1:30 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The Blyleven thing is nuts.
Both guys are probably going to get in, but seriously, there are some writers who need remedial baseball education.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
by D98 on Jan 12, 2009 2:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Amazing that Harold Baines is barely staying on the ballot
"There are no curses here...Games are won and lost on the baseball field" - Lou Piniella
by El Borto on Jan 12, 2009 1:30 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Great article here
If Rice is a Hall of Famer, then so is Dawson
http://mlb.fanhouse.com/2009/01/12/from-the-windup-if-jim-rice-is-a-hall-of-famer-so-is-andre-daw/
Edgar Martinez is up next year as well. Now that will be interesting. We’ll see if any of these “OBP is the most important stat!” assholes reward a great hitter who literally didn’t play defense.
The worst beer I had was pretty good.
by Worf on Jan 12, 2009 1:34 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Excellent Article
and I totally agree, its intersting to seehow the stats that didn’t count then, are being used again Dawson, but yet the stats that are WAY better than Rice’s are overlooked.
by chrisw95 on Jan 12, 2009 1:42 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think...
…they value players who could field their ass off enouph in regards to position players. Unless you have been to several WS, it makes it hard if your offensive numbers just aren’t killer. Both Dawson and Santo were complete ballplayers and they get snubbed because of others who have better pure offensive numbers, or those who have seen the spotlight in the WS.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Jan 12, 2009 1:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
A travesty
It’s impossible to believe someone wouldn’t vote for Henderson, but then again I can’t believe that no one has ever been elected unanimously. Sports writers can be real numb nuts sometimes.
And Jim Rice before Andre Dawson? Give me a break.
by Mike Vails Evil Twin on Jan 12, 2009 1:35 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
its sort of a how long are you on the ballot thing
Since this was Rice’s last year it is a way of saying he just barely made it…The Hawk should make it in well before his last year on the ballot. Still sucks tho.
Cubs Karma: Don't take anything for granted.....
by Andre Fonseca on Jan 12, 2009 2:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Many villages are calling
There are many villages calling because they are missing their idiot.
Dawson is an example of why the vote has to be taken away from the writers because they don’t know a thing about the game.
Yes Dawson didn’t have as many homeruns as some of the big time sluggers. But those guys didn’t steal bases or play D like he did.
Yes he didn’t steal bases like some others. But they didn’t hit homeruns.
Etc you get my point.
Dawson wasn’t the best of anything but he was among the best at everything. That’s what makes him stand out.
If Dawson was on the other team he was beating you.
Barbara V. October 14, 1941 - December 19, 2008. A great lady who was a friend to all and like a second mom to her children's friends (she was my best friend's mom)
by cubstoseriesby100 on Jan 12, 2009 1:36 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
Here's the question,
if you think the vote should be taken away from the writers, who should replace them?
I would like to point out that the players themselves have shown over the years to not exactly be the most informed voters. (They elected Jason Varitek to the all star game last year!)
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on Jan 12, 2009 1:39 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Well
Its not exactly like the fans can do it right either, if not, Varitek would be a lock and the whole Yankee line up would be in as well.
Buit I think their peers should be the final vote, nhot the current players, but the ones who played against them (Providing they are still alaive).
That should give you an ide of who was feared the most, and who just had a name.
by chrisw95 on Jan 12, 2009 1:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
IMO
Setup HOF benchmarks. Those benchmarks could be by position, era, etc and it could be combination of those that gets a player in. Then, all of those players, who meet or surpass the benchmarks go straight in when they are eligible. Then, for those players who don’t meet the benchmark, they get two more shots. One more time (5 years later), the are evaulated against the benchmarks again to take into account a clearer picture of the era they played in. If they fail to get in again, the following year, the get on a ballot for voting. If they get X percentage, then the get in. If they don’t, they are not and won’t be considered anymore either for voting or benchmarks.
One of the many issue with this approach would be setting the benchmarks. Who would do it and how would they been approved.
But it can’t be any worse than the crap we got going on now. Take out the Cub Bias that I have and I still see a system that makes no sense. How can a guy by HOF after failing 14 times before that.
"When two Whales Fight, many Shrimp Die" - Korean Proverb
by TheRiot Police on Jan 12, 2009 2:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Interesting idea
but the benchmarks would have to be continually changing too often.
"I don't know, I think the Bears should just defer so they don't have to put their offense out there to start" -Tony Kornhesier
by rea5661 on Jan 12, 2009 7:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Just frustrated
I’m just really frustrated.
There’s also the continuing joke of Lee Smith’s vote total.
I think a group of holler monkeys would do at least as well as the writers.
A combo of players and writers and maybe even a computer.
Barbara V. October 14, 1941 - December 19, 2008. A great lady who was a friend to all and like a second mom to her children's friends (she was my best friend's mom)
by cubstoseriesby100 on Jan 12, 2009 11:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
What's a holler monkey?
RIP Ron Asheton (1948-2009)
by dat cubfan daver on Jan 13, 2009 11:50 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Does it matter?
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Jan 13, 2009 2:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Just curious.
Just curious.
RIP Ron Asheton (1948-2009)
by dat cubfan daver on Jan 14, 2009 11:01 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Holler if you hear me!
Check out my Cubs shrine: http://picasaweb.google.com/vegascubfan/CubsRooms#
by VegasCubFan on Jan 14, 2009 11:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Andre Dawson = Vladimir Guerrero
Power and speed, toiling in obscurity in Montreal’s outfield, moving to a major market and winning an MVP in the first year, getting injured and walking around all hobbled like James Caan at the end of “Misery”….
Any chance that Vlad could be the final Expo Hall of Famer? Nah, I know, the MVP and Series ring will make him an Angel in the Hall. But you never know, I guess.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
by D98 on Jan 12, 2009 11:55 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Vlad
Unless he falls off a cliff in the next year or so, Vlad is a sure-fire Hall of Famer. And he doesn’t turn 33 until next month.
by Josh77 on Jan 13, 2009 2:04 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Absolutely.
But, as I said, probably as an Angel.
Dawson will also get in, probably in the next couple of years.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
by D98 on Jan 13, 2009 9:37 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
*yawn*
Frankly, I don’t really know why anyone cares about the Hall of Fame to begin with. Everyone’s got their own favorite players over the years and nothing’s going to change that, right? Who needs validation from a bunch of sportswriters anyhow.
The problem, in my idiot opinion, is the number of times a player can show up on a ballot – it should be one and that’s it. A player becomes eligible for a vote then do it, don’t drag it out for a decade. The stats aren’t going to change, all it does it extend the turnover in the voters, so in essence the hall isn’t welcoming a player based on merit, but rather changing voter demographics.
It’s a garbage process controlled by halfwits. The beatification of a retired ballplayer isn’t really worth giving a care about.
WOXY.com - The Future of Rock and Roll
by Gibbon Jockey on Jan 12, 2009 1:53 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
The Baseball HOF
is the only HOF that actually matters…. it seems like you can get into just about every other HOF without too much trouble.
Cubs Karma: Don't take anything for granted.....
by Andre Fonseca on Jan 12, 2009 2:42 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm kind of surprised that
Mark Grace didn’t get enough votes to stay on ballot. I know he wasn’t HOF worthy, but I would think he’d get more than 22 votes out of 539 casts.
by Cubs and Hawks fan on Jan 12, 2009 1:58 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
I don't get this
if he’s not HoF worthy, than why should he get 22 votes, let alone 2? Voters are supposed to vote based on their belief that someone is a Hall of Famer. Its not a collective discussion where voters designate who will cast their votes to make sure Grace stays on the ballot yet falls short of enshrinement.
by dmlichte on Jan 12, 2009 2:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Its like signing a petition to put a referendum on the ballot
you may not vote for it, but you want to make sure it gets a far chance to be considered and debated.
I think this is especially true to the HOF where first ballot holds a special privledge. i have no problem voting to keep some one on the ballot for later consideration.
"There are no curses here...Games are won and lost on the baseball field" - Lou Piniella
by El Borto on Jan 12, 2009 2:23 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
but...
… what happens if all the writers sign the petition… or at least 75% do? I disagree with your analogy. I think my beef with the poster was the concept that he may not be a Hall of Famer, but he deserved to get the 22 votes. I disagree. You either deserve to get 100% or none.
by dmlichte on Jan 12, 2009 3:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Well the only way to have 100%
Is to have everyone the same idea of exactly who a HOFer is. Obviously there are many opinions out there so there’s a vote.
Now I don’t think the system is good and in fact its flaws make time for debate and deliberation all the more valuable. I think its worth taking the time to really think about some guys.
"There are no curses here...Games are won and lost on the baseball field" - Lou Piniella
by El Borto on Jan 12, 2009 4:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
this is true...
… but my point is that no one should think “I know he isn’t a HoFer, but he should’ve gotten votes”. As an individual, the thinking should be “he should get 100% or 0%”. Then each voter gets to decide their opinion on the matter for every voter. Some will think yes and some will think no, and alas players will get somewhere in between. But the whole 1st timer or unanimous vote stuff is just an indication that the process is ridiculous.
To me, this year, Henderson, Blyleven, Raines and Dawson should have gotten 100% of the vote and no one else should have gotten any votes.
by dmlichte on Jan 12, 2009 7:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
Most Hits in the 1990’s (1754)
Most Doubles in the 1990’s (364)
11 Opening Day starts at first base for the Cubs (1989-2000)
Batted .647 in 1989 NLCS vs. the San Francisco Giants
Lifetime .303 batting avg
National League All-Star Selections: 1993, 1995 and 1997
Rawlings Gold Glove Awards (First Base): 1992, 1993, 1995 and 1996
Cubs All-Century Team First Baseman as voted by fans in 1999
Top Ten Finishes
Batting Average – Eight Times
On-base % – Seven Times
Slugging % – Once
OPS – Twice
Games – Five Times
At Bats – Three Times (Led league in 1991)
Runs – Once
Hits – Six Times
Doubles – Seven Times (Led league in 1995)
Total Bases – Once
Walks – Four Times
Extra-base Hits – Once
Intentional Walks – Twice
by Clutche on Jan 12, 2009 2:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think "Opening Day Starts for the Cubs" is a HOF category.
And the “most in the 1990’s” stuff, while nice, is completely arbitrary. If he’d been 1 or 2 years older or younger, he wouldn’t hold that “record”.
Also, top 10 finishes?
Mark Grace is not a Hall of Famer. I’m pretty sure he’d back me up in that argument.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
by D98 on Jan 12, 2009 2:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Also, look at the list of "top 10 finishes".
Led the league in TWO things — AB in 1991, and doubles in 1995.
Grace was a very good player for a long time, not a great one.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Jan 12, 2009 2:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Grace has the WS ring
I think even he knows, thats the best he will get out of baseball history. Good player, not HOF caliber.
by chrisw95 on Jan 12, 2009 2:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
WS titles dont count if your team wears purple
its science
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
by bren on Jan 12, 2009 5:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Bill Buckner
Buckner had a better career than Mark Grace. Buckner isn’t in the Hall, so why should anybody think Grace should make it?
"The big possum walks late." - Harry Caray
by memphiscub on Jan 12, 2009 2:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I love both Grace and Buckner
And both had good careers in Chicago and elsewhere but not hall worthy
by gocubsgo22 on Jan 12, 2009 3:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
It is interesting that the only players ever to lead the league in hits for a decade not in the HOF
Are Grace and Pete Rose
by gocubsgo22 on Jan 12, 2009 3:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
...and Willie Wilson in the 1980's
Clemente was the last player to get inducted after leading a decade (1960-69) in hits and that really wasn’t an important credential in his getting the vote…
by MarchHare on Jan 12, 2009 3:38 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
W. Wilson, Murphy, Trammell
It’s interesting that Willie Wilson, Dale Murphy, and Alan Trammell (the top three in hits in the 1980’s) are not going to make the Hall of Fame.
"The big possum walks late." - Harry Caray
by memphiscub on Jan 12, 2009 5:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
you forget
1 description of the Slumpbuster
Check out my Cubs shrine: http://picasaweb.google.com/vegascubfan/CubsRooms#
by VegasCubFan on Jan 14, 2009 11:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Mark Grace isn't Hall material, therefore I have no problem with him exiting the ballot
I hate this garbage where dweeb BBWOA try to lord over the process. Either a player is a Hall of Famer or he isn’t. And if he is then he had damned well better be voted upon during his first ballot. This waiting b.s. is a joke. What does that prove? And how on bloody earth is Rickey Henderson not get 100.0% of the vote?!?
by BLou on Jan 12, 2009 2:25 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Even Willie Mays didn't get in unanimously
There will always poblems with the system-writers play favorites, have hidden agendas, etc. And as we’ve seen over and over again, the veteran’s committee is no better (and quite possibly worse).
Problem is, I don’t see any better way to do it.
by bluekoolaide on Jan 12, 2009 3:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Greg Vaughn got 0 votes?
Well I’ll be damned…
Brian McRae's 5 o'clock shadow
by PurpleLineToWrigley on Jan 12, 2009 2:03 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Wanna know what's worse?
Jay Bell got two votes.
by Josh77 on Jan 13, 2009 2:07 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
embarrassing for Greg Vaughn
Check out my Cubs shrine: http://picasaweb.google.com/vegascubfan/CubsRooms#
by VegasCubFan on Jan 14, 2009 11:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Blame the process
First, I will say that I appreciate that the MLB HoF is difficult. This isn’t to say Dawson should or should not be in… but the fact is that once you have a voting process with 15 years of eligibility, you are going to get voters who differentiate first ballot HoFers, second ballot HoFers, and so on. I think its inanely stupid, but this is what has evolved.
by dmlichte on Jan 12, 2009 2:08 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
I have always been bothered by the voting
for the HOF. If a player is not good enough to be voted in, then why is that same player good enough the next year or 5 years later?
A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings. ~Earl Wilson
by tucsoncubsfan on Jan 12, 2009 2:10 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Jay Bell isn't a Hall of Famer.
Who voted for him?
I can see the Orosco vote, as he does hold a significant major league record (pitcher appearances).
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Jan 12, 2009 2:10 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Who voted for Jay Bell?
A real ding dong, apparently…
by Mike Vails Evil Twin on Jan 12, 2009 2:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
some guy from ESPN
Nobody cares about your fantasy baseball team
by carmen_fanzone on Jan 12, 2009 2:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Can someone
vote for Jay Johnstone then??? at least he had the humour thing going for him. Bell, not so much.
by chrisw95 on Jan 12, 2009 2:23 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
(Joking) Let's Retire #21
for the “great” Jay Johnstone. He’d appreciate that.
"The big possum walks late." - Harry Caray
by memphiscub on Jan 12, 2009 2:50 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
:*O(
Congrats to Rickey and Rice…. They have reason to celebrate. Still, it’s a sad day in baseball because Hawk and Blyleven are not in the HOF.
The HOF will be nothing more than a joke until those players who actually deserve it are rewarded with an introduction.
Also, it’s sad that Grace didn’t get the 5%. I didn’t think he deserved to be a HOF, but I thought he did deserve to hang around the ballot for awhile.
by TheHawkRules on Jan 12, 2009 2:12 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Travesty
The fact that Tim Raines only got 22% of the vote is an abomination. This is so ridiculous its almost comical.
Good luck to Andre next year I hope he gets in.
by obc2 on Jan 12, 2009 2:18 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
+1
I’m surprised that Tim Raines has virtually no chance of making the Hall. I’m just a little too young to have seen him play with the Memphis Chicks in the Expos organization. You would think the guy could get 50% of the vote. I am encouraged by the slight increase in Dawson’s vote that he’ll make it in 2010.
"The big possum walks late." - Harry Caray
by memphiscub on Jan 12, 2009 2:23 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I am hoping...
…that Raines will get a boost now that Rickey is in, but I think 50% is too much ground to make up for him. It’s sad, but I guess life isn’t fair…particularly to Montreal.
by MarchHare on Jan 12, 2009 3:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe he and Dawson can get a combined "Expo boost"
Usually, it takes a little bit of education for the non-slam-dunk guys to get in. Like how it took Sutter forever, and then when he got in, everyone’s attention turned to Gossage, who had done basically the same things as Sutter, but for a longer time and somewhat better.
I thought that Sutter’s year was going to be a “closer year” – the year that the first relief specialists in a long time got inducted. It took 2 separate years, but they’re both in.
Maybe 2010 will be an “Expo year”.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
by D98 on Jan 12, 2009 11:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
If Jim Rice gets in, then Andre Dawson will eventually get in
I have a hard time accepting Jim Rice in the Hall of Fame. It sickens me that the East Coast media can make anything they want to happen, happen.
But if Rice is in then that means Andre Dawson is a lock. Might take a few more years though.
Criminal that Bert Blyleven remains on the outside looking in. But the good news for him is that the Veterans Committee will likely take up his case and vote him in just as soon as he is eligible for their process.
by BLou on Jan 12, 2009 2:22 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
I sincerely doubt that the Veterans Committee
will ever vote ANYONE in to the HOF!
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on Jan 12, 2009 2:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Disagree
They will rightfully attend to the case of Bert Blyleven if he lasts that long. There is no way they will ignore a fellow player who won 287 games, struck out 3,700, tossed an unbelievable 60 shut outs, was key member of two World Series Champions, had one of the all-time greatest curveballs in the game and was a solid class act.
Bert Blyleven’s case has nothing to do with the case of Ron Santo by the way. While I know it is horribly unpopular to say this around here in my judgment Ron Santo is not a Hall of Famer. Santo was simply a good ballplayer. He never played in a single playoff game and was never accused of being clutch. What he did do was give his team consistently good run production totals and quality defense at 3rd base. Does that count for something? Sure it does. But it doesn’t make Santo a Hall of Famer.
by BLou on Jan 12, 2009 2:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Personally,
I wouldn’t bet on anyone ever being voted in to the HOF by the Veterans Committee.
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on Jan 12, 2009 2:42 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
agree on Blyleven
but are you saying that being in the playoffs is a prerequisite for being voted into HOF? Should it be? Santo was the dominant player at his position for a decade. I also believe his illness shoyuld be taken into account. The man deserves to be there.
What hurts Santo is the campaigning he has done for the honor.
"I still don't know what happened"- Fergie Jenkins on '69
by tommy veryzer on Jan 12, 2009 5:25 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Have to disagree on Ron Santo
Santo was never a “dominant” player, rather he was a solid player. But he never once played on a playoff team, and unfortunately had a history of vaporizing during crunch time to include the infamous collapse of 1969. Plus, the elephant under the rug is that Santo didn’t have many friends during his playing days. He was widely considered to be an a-hole. Should that be held against him? Of course not, but on the margin I am sure it still is.
The fact that Santo played with diabetes should not enter the equation of Hall of Fame consideration.
by BLou on Jan 12, 2009 9:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
It's true that Dawson will get in.
Rice waited the maximum 15 years, though…. and frankly, he deserves to be in. Despite the rather ridiculous process, I think that this worked out about as well as it should have.
Rice was among the very best few hitters in the game for a period of several years. If his decline had been slower, he’d have reached some pretty obvious HOF milestones.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
by D98 on Jan 12, 2009 2:25 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
east coast media can make anything they want happen?
So they wanted Rice in the HOF but got together and decided he wouldn’t get in until his final chance? That is one wacky conspiracy.
by the nth on Jan 12, 2009 4:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
agreed
Rizzuto, if he had been on ANY other team, wouldn’t have even been considered for the HOF. The Yankees and the Red Sox think they ARE baseball, and news outlets agree..
Erm, well if we are going to call Milton Bradley nicknames, mine is Fischer Price: yes, you heard it here first..
by Chanman25 on Jan 12, 2009 7:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Wait
you mean there are TWO coasts??
And whats this NL central division thing?? Isn’t it just the AL??
Kidding, I think I’m being a little giddy this evening.
by chrisw95 on Jan 12, 2009 7:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
It is a joke that Phil Rizzuto is in the Hall
That is the one most egregious case that will forever taint the Hall.
by BLou on Jan 12, 2009 9:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Does Grace have a case? Check this out!!
by Clutches on Jan 12, 2009 4:59 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Grace have a case?
That started like a Dr Seuss book.
make*art
by neverAcquiesce on Jan 12, 2009 5:25 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
HAWK GOES BUT NOT
Right now I would assume within the next few years ….As for the santo yes he should be there ..( but i sure don’t think the cheerleading has helped him ) ….
by cubs north on Jan 12, 2009 5:58 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
WTF??
How can guys like Dawson and Lee Smith be left out of the Hall again?? Both should have been first balloters. How much you wanna bet Hoffman and Rivera get in on their first tries? Also, although I do believe that Henderson was a shoe in, why is everyone so upset about him not getting the unanimous vote. Jesus, even Babe Ruth and Lou Gherig didn’t get in unanimously. If guys like that can’t do it, nobody can.
by erikj316 on Jan 12, 2009 5:59 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Its b/c it points out a flaw in the voting process
There is no earthly reason why anyone shouldnt have voted for Rickey: 1400 steals, 2000BBs, 3000 Hits, world series titles….so some writers are trying to make an esoteric point about god knows what….for what? what is the point, what does not voting for him prove when 94% of the other voters did vote for him…hes a no brainer…in fact there should be more unanimous votes
A unanimous vote for Rickey doesnt mean that he is better than the Bambino or Cy Young or Tris Speaker, etc etc….it simply means that Rickey is an irrefutable hall of famer.
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
by bren on Jan 12, 2009 7:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
OT:
Dave Kaplan said on CTL tonight that he had been told the sale of the Cubs could be final in the next 48 hours. He said it was down to only two potential buyers now. Ricketts was one and I think he said Utay was the other.
by sue369 on Jan 12, 2009 6:55 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
That's good news.
Klaff would have been bad news, as he has no real connection to baseball or the Cubs, he just lives in Chicago.
I favor the Ricketts group and I suspect they may be the ones. Good news for us if it is.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Jan 12, 2009 7:59 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Klaff and Ricketts...
… are the two favorites.
I’m not sure that the lack of baseball/Cubs connection would have made him bad news. I understand the sentimentality of it all, but if he’s a good manager of people and willing to pay the money to field a winner, than he’s fine.
by dmlichte on Jan 12, 2009 9:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Please o' please let it be Ricketts
That said, even if it does get down to one name I would not hold my breath for the finalization of the sale to happen anytime soon. This thing could drag on until the end of next season.
by BLou on Jan 12, 2009 9:35 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
if so this'll be the first time in my life
I’ll be glad I got rickets.
"Truth does not do as much good in the world as the semblance of truth does evil," - Duc de La Rochefoucauld, Maxims, 64.
by Emelie on Jan 13, 2009 3:09 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Pity...
But he’ll eventually get in, I hope…
Erm, well if we are going to call Milton Bradley nicknames, mine is Fischer Price: yes, you heard it here first..
by Chanman25 on Jan 12, 2009 7:21 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
After reanalayzing their stats
how in blue blazes did Jim Rice get in over Dawson. Dawson has many more hits and HRs!?!!
Erm, well if we are going to call Milton Bradley nicknames, mine is Fischer Price: yes, you heard it here first..
by Chanman25 on Jan 12, 2009 7:27 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Longevity
is not considered a statistic. So Dawson gets placed behind Rice due to his numbers being over a longer period of time.
I wonder what Julio Franco would have been able to do with BB’s trainers?? :-)
by chrisw95 on Jan 12, 2009 7:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
pity, dude could have had 3,000 hits maybe if stayed in the ML
Erm, well if we are going to call Milton Bradley nicknames, mine is Fischer Price: yes, you heard it here first..
by Chanman25 on Jan 12, 2009 7:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Well one good thing
I don’t have to worry about going to Cooperstown this year. Would have been a stretch on the budget but when
The Hawk gets in I will be there. I did not go for Ryne because as much as I admire him Andre was THE MAN in my most formative Cub years. I sat out in RF and bowed every time he came out. When he goes to Cooperstown I go to Cooperstown.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Jan 12, 2009 7:49 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
I intend to make it to Cooperstown the year Maddux is inducted
Its gonna be a bitch to get into the place, but it would be worth it..
Erm, well if we are going to call Milton Bradley nicknames, mine is Fischer Price: yes, you heard it here first..
by Chanman25 on Jan 12, 2009 8:06 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
I am planning ahead
My best friend HATES baseball but he loves antiques. He has offered to drive & dump me while he goes looking for cool
stuff, he knows everything about that area of NY State except baseball. I have a friend who works at the HOF and knows my “interest” in Maddux so I am sure he will give me tips on what I need to do. I expect it will be a record crowd. At this point I am not sure who else will be eligible other than Mussina. It does not appear Glavine , Vizquel, Bonds, Kent, Clemens etc have filed the papers that would be required before the start of this season to be eligible. Of that group I suspect only Glavine will play.
I am hoping the Maddux finally dumps the boring, Nook Laloosh type speak he mainly uses so no one finds him interesting and gives
a speech worthy of his real intellect but I sort of doubt it. He tends to prefer the public image.
Perhaps we can chip in and have the BCB take over one of the local hotels.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Jan 12, 2009 8:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Hah that's a possibility
I’ll be 22 then so can’t wait. It’s gonna be a bitch to get into Cooperstown that day. However it will be worth it
Erm, well if we are going to call Milton Bradley nicknames, mine is Fischer Price: yes, you heard it here first..
by Chanman25 on Jan 12, 2009 9:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
record crowd?
more than Gwynn and Ripken in 2007?
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Jan 12, 2009 10:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yep record crowd
Bank on it.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Jan 12, 2009 10:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
umm... you're not being a little biased here, are you?
what’s your rationale for a record crowd?
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Jan 12, 2009 10:23 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Sure I am biased
but Maddux is beloved by Cub fans. Braves fans and pretty much most baseball fans. I have talked to baseball fans from
around the country who are Maddux nuts and they all are marking their calenders You want to tell me that Ripkin and Gwynn even together as great as they were have broader baseball fan interest than Maddux ? I also strongly suspect you will have a record number of retired players attending.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Jan 12, 2009 10:55 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
not so much Gwynn but yeah, I think Ripken has broader baseball fan interest than Maddux
c’mon, remember “The Streak”? Ripken captivated a nation with his ironman efforts. Personally, I didn’t think it was that big a deal – the man did what he was supposed to do. He showed up and played. However, most of America begged to differ with me and they fell over themselves with adulation and adoration of Cal. And I think it’s safe to say that popularity carried over to the HoF induction in 2007.
I don’t even know that Ripken/Gywnn is the current record-holder for attendance at an induction ceremony. From looking at recent induction classes, just seems like it would be. Then again, I don’t even know if they keep track of such things.
I’m not denying Maddux’s greatness, and achieving that greatness with two teams will certainly expand the audience. And maybe that dedicated fanbase of two teams will overflow Cooperstown. But i think you’re overestimating his impact in terms of broad baseball fan interest. Sure he won 355 games, but it was the quietest 355 wins in the history of the game. Maddux’s greatness won’t truly be appreciated until more time passes. He’s like a fine wine that gets better and better as it ages. Wouldn’t surprise me if he reaches Koufax-esque levels 20 years from now.
But in terms of rallying the masses for a HoF induction crowd – I like Ripken/Gwynn over Maddux. But let’s wait and see who else goes in with him. Hopefully it won’t take five more years until Andre goes in. Is the Veterans Committee still on a two year cycle? If not, wouldn’t that be sweet if Santo finally gets his due.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Jan 12, 2009 11:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You may underestimate the interest in Maddux
I think the number of hard core baseball geeks who worship him easily outnumbers those who found Ripkin
and his “streak’ such a big deal. I believe he has reached Koufax-esque levels already. Now Maddux did everything possible to downplay his achievements and keep a low profile but I think that only made him more popular among a large segment of baseball fans. I know my friend who works at the HOF thinks that Maddux will attract a record crowd but then he is "one of us” and thus biased.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Jan 12, 2009 11:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Going forward
Robbie Alomar hits the ballot next year and in my view should be slam dunk to make the Hall. With all due respect to the oustanding Ryne Sandberg, Alomar was a better all-around ballplayer during the same era and in my view the greatest defensive 2nd baseman the game has ever seen. Alomar’s range at 2nd was Ozzie Smithish.
Barry Larkin? I think he will eventually get into the Hall. He was instrumental player on the 1990 Cincinnati team that won a World Series and also has a MVP award under his belt.
Andre Dawson? He will get into the Hall, but I think he probably has to wait a few more years.
Bert Blyleven? It is unfathomable to me that he is not already in the Hall. I watched Blyleven play for a long time and the pitcher that I saw take the mound all those years just has to be in the Hall. HOPEFULLY he is inching closer.
Rest of the names on the ballot this year? None of them belong in the Hall. To include Lee Smith. The only two holdovers that need to be in the Hall are Blyleven and Dawson.
My 2009 ballot??? Robbie Alomar, Barry Larkin, Andre Dawson, Bert Blyleven
by BLou on Jan 12, 2009 9:08 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Sorry, I'm going to have to disagree a little,
But by your standards, then we eliminate Trevor Hoffman, when he is elligible for the HOF.
Lee Smith was one of the top relievers of his day, right up there with Goose, Sutter, and Eck.
by chrisw95 on Jan 12, 2009 9:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Lee Smith
Lee Smith has no business in the Hall of Fame. He is not near the class of relief pitcher that Rollie Fingers, Dennis Eckersley, Goose Gossage and Bruce Sutter were during their heyday. You can’t just look at the accumulation of the overrated “save” statistic. I saw Smith’s entire career and never in a single season did I say to myself he is one of the two or three best closers in the game. That says it all.
by BLou on Jan 12, 2009 9:38 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I still think
that he was one of the top in his day, maybe not the best, but, although I do somewhat disagree,
by your standards, we will be eliminating someone like Trevor Hoffman.
Basically stating, if Hoffman gets in, than Lee Smith should as well.
I consider Hoffman like I do K-Rod, he gets a ton of saves, but really does not have that lights out kinda stuff.
by chrisw95 on Jan 12, 2009 9:46 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Did you ever see Hoffman's changeup?
Hoffman once converted 41 consecutive save ops. He struck out more batters per inning than Lee Smith, and he did it with an unhittable straight change. Hoffman struck out more than a batter per inning for the vast majority of his career – Smith only did it a handful of times.
Smith was a very good closer, but he wasn’t in Hoffman’s league.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
by D98 on Jan 13, 2009 12:06 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Hoffman is, and was, substantially better than Smith.
Peak performance, career numbers – there’s really no comparison between the two pitchers. Hoffman has several of the best relief-pitcher seasons ever recorded. Lee was occasionally very good, but Hoffman’s changeup was unhittable for years on end.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
by D98 on Jan 13, 2009 12:02 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Next three years
Bert Blyleven and Andre Dawson: Don’t worry. The magic number for enshrinement is not 75 percent. It is 60 percent. Every candidate who has hit that mark was eventually enshrined — with one cruel exception: Gil Hodges. The next three ballots might not have a single first-ballot Hall of Famer. The best of the bunch are Roberto Alomar, Barry Larkin, Edgar Martinez and Fred McGriff (2010), Jeff Bagwell (2011) and Bernie Williams (2012). Dawson (67 percent this year) and Blyleven (62.7) are likely to sneak in during that three-year window.
This bodes well for his chances.
Alomar and Larkin are pretty solid 80-85 percent guys. I think Dawson gets 78-80 percent.
Blyleven gets 72 percent next year and goes in with Bagwell the next year.
The worst beer I had was pretty good.
by Worf on Jan 12, 2009 10:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not a Bagwell fan
I never liked Jeff Bagwell. And though patently unfair on my behalf I hold the suspicion that Bagwell played juiced.
by BLou on Jan 12, 2009 10:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Dawson will have a very good chance next winter
A lot of the BBWA writers seem to view the election as working like a waiting list, with the “first-ballot” guys getting to jump the line. Dawson’s at the front of the line now and I’m not sure either Alomar or Larkin will be able to cut in front of him. While I do so see both Alomar and Larkin as deserving of the Hall of Fame, there are reasons why some writers might not vote for them immediately.
Larkin was really overshadowed for the latter portion of his career by younger, more powerful shortstops…call them the A-Rod generation. While not all the careers of those younger players have turned out as expected, Nomar being the best example, they did redefine what could be expected of a shortstop and Larkin might suffer by comparison to newer expectations.
Alomar, on the other hand, might lose some votes because of the way that his career ended. In this case, it’s the downside of the New York bias…he signed a huge contract with Mets and immediately fell off a cliff. That last impression, made under so much scrutiny, might hurt his chances in the first year or two that he’s on the ballot.
Edgar Martinez is an interesting case. He was an incredible hitter, one of the best in the game, for nearly a decade but he was also a DH and he’ll surely lose votes because his manager wouldn’t allow him to wear a glove. Edgar also didn’t really get a shot until he was 27 so his career totals aren’t as impressive as a number of guys that were far lesser hitters, such as McGriff. Also, he was playing in Seattle, so distant from any other MLB market, and he never said anything controversial that would get him attention elsewhere. Still, I think that if Edgar had played in the NL and his manager had been forced to accept him as a below-average defender at 1B, he’d go in very quickly. There’s really no difference, in terms of results, between that and what he did in the AL, but I suspect that he’ll be punished for the existence of the DH rule.
"Some people will look at a glass of water and say it's half-empty, while another guy will look at it and say it's half-full. A Cubs fan looks at the same glass and asks, "When's it gonna spill?" - Mike Royko
by LaddieRenfroe on Jan 13, 2009 2:20 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Dawson and Blyleven
I think that next year will finally be Blyleven’s turn, too – many writers like to make sure that somebody gets elected every year, just so that the HOF can have its induction ceremony. And as you note, the new guys on the ballot may not be viewed as “first ballot” types by some writers, although Alomar is awfully close.
The hue and cry for inducting Rice built up as Year 15 approached – I expect that it will be similar for Blyleven, who has 3 years remaining. Suddenly, everyone rediscovers the guy who is near the top of the career leaderboards in a half-dozen marquee pitching categories.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
by D98 on Jan 13, 2009 9:44 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Good article on Jim Rice
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/unfiltered/?p=1150
From Joe Sheehan of Baseball Prospectus.
by dmlichte on Jan 12, 2009 9:19 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Well...
Jim Rice just became Andre Dawson’s best hope to get into the Hall. Because if you are going to let Rice in then you have to let Dawson in. I respect what Rice accomplished in his career, but that said I have a hard time with him being admitted. In fact, the guy who now has the biggest beef should probably be Dale Murphy.
by BLou on Jan 12, 2009 9:39 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
History has shown
that Dawson being better than Rice does not necessarily help his chances (although I agree with you that he probably gets in). There are inferior players scattered throughout the HOF, while some worthy players are still on the outside looking in. The Hardball Times has an interesting write up on some of the factors that affect voting here.
There is another article that presents some eye-popping factoids about Henderson’s career that are absolutely amazing. I don’t much care for the guy, but there’s no denying he was a rare talent with sustained excellence over a very extended period of time. The Wonder of Ricky.
"Baseball is like Church. Many Attend; Few Understand." - Leo Durocher
by JD McCubbie on Jan 12, 2009 10:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Rickey Henderson was a freak of nature
Rickey altered the game of baseball with his arrival in Oakland in 1979. He wasn’t all about speed like the jack rabbits that Whitey Herzog had in Kansas City and later St. Louis. Nope, he was much more than that. Without question the greatest leadoff man of all time. The only negatives on Rickey is that he was rarely reliably healthy over a 162 game season and would usually wear out his welcome with a team. But man was he something to behold as a hitter and on the basepads.
by BLou on Jan 12, 2009 10:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Jim Rice?
If Rice can get in, I will hold out hope for others. Rice’s annual offensive output in his prime was impressive, but it ended early and he was a LF/DH.
I await the vote opening up for others, players outside of NY & Boston who exhibited all around great play. Dawson, Blyleven, Smith, Morris, Raines & Trammel are all worthy IMO.
As for others, Mattingly shouldn’t have drawn that many votes and when does one MVP and a handful of good seasons equate to a HOF vote, those voting for Mo Vaughn should be ashamed of themselves.
by N Oakley on Jan 13, 2009 7:56 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
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