Shove your OBP!

by Worf on Jan 12, 2009 10:07 PM CST Comment 67 comments

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/9049532/Forget-OBP,-Dawson's-still-a-Hall-of-Famer

Like Rosenthal, I spit on your OBP. Ptooey!

Yet from 1982 to '86, the NL OBP ranged from .319 to .322. In '87, a season of juiced offense, Dawson's .328 mark was the league average. Now consider the figures from 1988 to '92: .310, .312, .321, .317, .315.

"There are guys that get on base and guys that drive 'em in. Andre Dawson, we wanted him to be an RBI guy," said Buck Rodgers, who managed Dawson with the Expos in 1985-86. "We didn't want him up there taking pitches a quarter-inch inside or a quarter-inch outside. We wanted him hacking. If the ball was a little up, go ahead."

Dawson was around the average for his era. Yes, you could make a case that a HOF should be above average, but Dawson was, in most other categories.

Still, if Dawson's OBP was average for his era, or even a touch below, it was the only part of his game that met that description.

The first thing Michael mentioned when I called him was Dawson's defense, his speed in the outfield and strong, accurate arm.

The second thing Michael mentioned was the reverence Dawson evoked from other players — and yes, voters are instructed to consider character, integrity and sportsmanship.

"Nobody got more respect," Michael said. "Everyone was in awe when Andre was around."

Dawson was a model player of the pre-steroid era, capable of doing virtually anything on the field. He remains a model citizen in his present role as a special assistant to the president with the Marlins.

People want to talk about his OBP? Please, someone call off the sabermetric police. And soon.

Pardon me while I stand and applaud.

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, editor-in-chief (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.

0 recs | Comment 67 comments

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Excellent post

and it really puts Dawson’s “low” OBP into perspective.

by bluekoolaide on Jan 12, 2009 10:31 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Love it when Rosenthal............

………..TAKES THE GLOVES OFF!!

"Happiness? A good cigar, a good meal, a good cigar and a good woman - or a bad woman; it depends on how much happiness you can handle." ~ George Burns

by tville on Jan 12, 2009 10:35 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Don't disagree with anything

but it should be noted, Rosenthal doesn’t “spit” on OBP.

In his heart, Dawson surely knows that OBP is not ridiculous; quite the contrary, it’s actually one of the most meaningful offensive measures.

That said, the idea that OBP itself can derail a HOF vote, that’s sort of ludicrous, and much as I like Posnanski and Davidoff is usually fairly solid, they are way wrong on this one. A HOF should be defined upon the breadth of work, and Dawson is more than deserving of going in.

by toonsterwu on Jan 12, 2009 10:45 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Given that a statistic as worthless as Wins have kept Blyleven out of the hall

…I think it’s safe to say it isn’t OBP that’s kept Dawson out.

by Wreckard on Jan 12, 2009 11:07 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs

Rec'd

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jan 13, 2009 3:50 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

+1

Sweet Lou for Mayor in '11.

by blackhawk24 on Jan 13, 2009 6:16 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

What I have found irionic

A lot of the bashers of Dawson for his low OBP all devalue Theriot getting on base.

Barbara V. October 14, 1941 - December 19, 2008. A great lady who was a friend to all and like a second mom to her children's friends (she was my best friend's mom)

by cubstoseriesby100 on Jan 12, 2009 10:58 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

I doubt people devalue Theriot getting on base...

if anything, people who devalue Theriot devalue him because he has zero power and plays average to below average defense thanks to limited range and a weak arm.

The thing about OBP is that it’s not the ONLY thing that matters. One can make an argument against Dawson for the Hall and against Theriot as a decent player despite one being poor at OBP and the other being decent at OBP (not saying that I’d necessarily make either argument).

by SouthernCub on Jan 13, 2009 6:36 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Yes these are clearly the EXACT same people making both of these comments

Cite examples or you’re just projecting.

by Wreckard on Jan 13, 2009 8:43 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah, that is irionic.

Don’tcha think?

RIP Ron Asheton (1948-2009)

by dat cubfan daver on Jan 13, 2009 9:26 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

it's like ra-i-an...

on opening day
another strike out…
when you’ve already k’d
those orange barrels
that big Z hates…
Who would have thought we’d get swept…

"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella

by drewishdrewid on Jan 13, 2009 10:49 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

It figures...

Free Ronny Cedeno

by Kansas25 on Jan 13, 2009 2:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Other fun stats...

Dawson had more MVP award shares than Cal Ripken Jr, Roger Clemens, Carl Yastrzemski, Dave Winfield, Ryne Sandberg, Tony Gwynn, Rod Carew, Robin Yount, Jackie Robinson and countless others… which means that if you’re judging by value to his team, Dawson is HOF worthy.

Dawson had more gold glove awards than fellow outfielders Kirby Puckett, Carl Yastrzemski, Tony Gwynn, Hank Aaron, and just as many gold gloves as the (arguably) best defensive CF in baseball today Tori Hunter. Only 5 outfielders have more GGs than Dawson (Clemente, Griffey Jr, Mays, Kaline and A. Jones). Dawson’s 8 gold gloves ranks ahead of Jeter (3), Ripken (2), A-Rod (2) , Wade Boggs (2) and Joe Morgan (5), among others.

His 1373 career runs puts him ahead of Brett Butler, Ryne Sandberg, Ernie Banks, Harmon Killebrew, Carlton Fisk, Duke Snyder, Ozzie Smith, Jim Rice, Johny Bench and Kirby Puckett, among others.

Dawson also ranks 34th in career RBI, 36th in career HR, 45th in career doubles, 45th in career hits, 49th in int. walks, and only two hall of famers have a better career power/speed number on baseball reference.

Here’s what REALLY irked me though… Jim Rice was inducted under the logic that he was one of the most feared hitters of his day… but for his career Dawson had nearly double the number of intentional walks (143) that Rice had (77)… That says it all…

One thing you learned as a Cubs fan: when you bought you ticket, you could bank on seeing the bottom of the ninth.
Joe Garagiola

by Ryan at Cubshub on Jan 12, 2009 11:24 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Funny you mention the walks

I made mention of the intimidation factor in another forum, and oddly, I was disagreed with based on other stats. I do wish I had the walk stats earlier to back that up.

by chrisw95 on Jan 13, 2009 8:57 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

To be honest...

…I was borderline on the Hawk because I was younger while he was in his prime… But the stats dont lie. He’s a top 40 player for many stats and that alone should get him in.

One thing you learned as a Cubs fan: when you bought you ticket, you could bank on seeing the bottom of the ninth.
Joe Garagiola

by Ryan at Cubshub on Jan 13, 2009 10:28 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Speaking of Rice's intentional walks...

He isn’t in the Top 15 for IBB if you only consider the years he played during:
http://mlb.mlb.com/stats/historical/player_stats.jsp?statType=1&teamPosCode=all&HS=true&timeFrame=1&c_id=mlb&statSet1=2&sitSplit=&venueID=&section1=1&baseballScope=mlb&timeSubFrame=1974&timeSubFrame=1975&timeSubFrame=1976&timeSubFrame=1977&timeSubFrame=1978&timeSubFrame=1979&timeSubFrame=1980&timeSubFrame=1981&timeSubFrame=1982&timeSubFrame=1983&timeSubFrame=1984&timeSubFrame=1985&timeSubFrame=1986&timeSubFrame=1987&timeSubFrame=1988&timeSubFrame=1989&&sortByStat=IBB

The “most feared hitter” of his era is pure and simple nonsense for anyone who watched baseball during that time. Yesterday on the ABC evening news in Chicago the sports guy went so far as to call him the “most feared number three hitting in history”, which is even more ridiculous.

You can make decent arguments for Rice’s induction, but any way you slice it he’s a borderline pick no matter what mantra you repeat about his being feared.

by MarchHare on Jan 13, 2009 10:29 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm sorry but

saying that Dawson had more MVP shares than those players is not a very good arguement for his induction. First of all, Dawson clearly was not as good as any of them, and he just happened to receive more shares that particular year than they did when they won. Gold gloves are not a very useful indicator of a player’s defense, for example how derek jeter and raffy palmeiro have each won 3 (including ’99 where palmeiro played 28 games at 1B and the rest as a DH).

"I don't know, I think the Bears should just defer so they don't have to put their offense out there to start" -Tony Kornhesier

by rea5661 on Jan 14, 2009 12:05 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Huh?

“he just happened to receive more shares that particular year than they did when they won”.

Right. It just “happened”. No, it means he was considered to be a better player by the MVP voters.

You are correct that gold gloves can be meaningless. In Dawson’s case, however, he was clearly an outstanding outfielder with a plus arm. Had he not had all the knee problems, he’d probably have played CF much of his career — he was an excellent center fielder when he first came up.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jan 14, 2009 4:16 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Andre Dawson

He was the man no one wanted to face with the game on the line either. Does his intenseity on and off the field keep him out? He was not liked by most writers for it, as well as some players. When he got “locked in” he did’nt want anyone jacking with him. He was there to win and when they did’nt, he was hard to be around.

ernie81

by ernie81 on Jan 13, 2009 4:20 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

That doesn't describe the Dawson I saw play.

Everyone seemed to like his intensity, writers included.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jan 13, 2009 7:49 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Well then...

Why would the writer’s be keeping him out of the hall, do you really think its numbers alone?

ernie81

by ernie81 on Jan 14, 2009 3:13 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Because writers

Like to feel important. They feel that if they can deny someone who is stronger, faster, more-talented, better looking, wealthier, and getting more sex, then their pathetic lives will have meaning.

The worst beer I had was pretty good.

by Worf on Jan 14, 2009 7:26 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

careful Worf - you're coming up real close to bloggers' territory there...

you forgot the part about living in the basement though.

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Jan 14, 2009 9:56 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

The argument against Dawson by Neyer

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryID=3827958&name=Neyer_Rob

by FrankSereno on Jan 13, 2009 5:42 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Neyer says...

… Raines and Dawson’s career totals are “oddly linked”. Why? Because they were both Expos? That makes no sense. They were very different players.

And, you can make a good case for Raines to be in the Hall, too.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jan 13, 2009 7:50 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

you can make a better case

because Raines was a better player

by DartmouthCubsFan on Jan 13, 2009 7:54 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

yup...

Unfortunately for Raines, his skillset is still wildly undervalued by writers, because they don’t understand how to evaluate it. Walks, doubles/triples, and SB just don’t excite the writers like HR and base hits. Raines was the superior player but will have more trouble than Dawson because he specialized in OBP and SB, and not HR.

by SouthernCub on Jan 13, 2009 8:23 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

You're missing Rosenthal's argument

First Dawson is saying what he’s saying mostly out of bitterness (which is fine) because there are PINHEADS out there (the same type like that asshole Paul Ledewski formerly of the Daily Southtown that handed in a blank ballot, not voting for Gywnn or Ripkin) that look at ONE stat and use that against the player.

Bob Picozi (sp?) was on ESPN1000 just now during Mike & MIKE taking about the Hawk and comparing him to Rice, asking how one but not the other gets in. He took it in a different light than Rosenthal but said in essence the quirks of the voters dictate a lot.

Rosenthal isn’t ripping OBP, he’s ripping on the PINHEADS that look at ONE STAT that’s lower and weight it MUCH HIGHER than stats where the player compares more favorably. It’s the system, not the player and certainly not the stat. Look at the comment above by Wreckard, it pretty much sums it all up.

Sweet Lou for Mayor in '11.

by blackhawk24 on Jan 13, 2009 6:25 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Of course I know that Rosenthal likes OBP

I was going after the scumbags that hang their hat on Dawson’s OBP as the end-all, be all.

Rice is in because he played in Boston his entire career and he got a few key media members to whine for him. And Rosenthal also addresses the Rice thing too, saying that some writers didn’t want to be the guy who kept Rice out.

So, what was a legitimate reason to keep him out in the 14th year became not worth it in the 15th year.

The worst beer I had was pretty good.

by Worf on Jan 13, 2009 8:38 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Oh, there is none

…reasons that is for keeping him out 14 years and voting him in year 15.

IMHO the system sucks. Writers, many who wouldn’t know how to approach the game if they tried.

The whining you reference is not only real for Rice, it was most notable for Carter. If he campaigned any harder, he’d be voted into office.

And if it were not the OBP, it’d be another stat some moron could harp about; pick one any one.

Sweet Lou for Mayor in '11.

by blackhawk24 on Jan 13, 2009 8:54 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

The problem with Dawson is this

Dawson wasn’t great in any one offensive category.

He was a good slugger, but not great.
He was a good HR hitter, but not great.
He was a good base stealer, but he didn’t steal a ton of bases.

He was good for a long career, and thus he is good in overall totals.

It’s just natural for someone with those credentials to find it tougher to get in the hall. Think about the Olympics for example. How many people know the best athletes in the Decathlon? Almost noone. Yet these are superb athletes. However, they are not the best in any of the main events. On the othe hand, people do know the best runners/sprinters, best runners with hurdlers, some of the long jump athletes. Being amongst the best at one thing is usually the ticket to recognized greatness. Being very good at a lot of things is just a notch below into what the population appreciattes.

I think ultimately what will get Dawson in the hall is his defense. I think if Dawson was average defensively his offense would not be enough to warrant Hall consideration (IMO anyway). But people shouldn’t be surprised that this is the way it is. It’s how society works, for good or worse.

I think I give Dawson a harder time than I should is because I utterly dislike toolsy type players. The history fo the Cubs has certainly played a part in this. I think of Dawson as an equal to Soriano at the plate, and to me, Soriano is definitely no HOF worthy. And I see no coincidence in the way both flopped in the post season. They are not the type I want with the game on the line to stand in the batters box, and that is the first question that comes to my mind when I think about an OF candidacy for the hall. But I do ackowledge that the guy was amongs the best at his positions defensively, had a cannon of an arm, and that should count for something.

He will get in. The time it will take him to get in is justified too.

by Luis on Jan 13, 2009 6:32 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

You could use the same arguments...

… to describe Billy Williams’ career (except for the SB, which Billy really didn’t do).

And yes, it took Billy a while to get in. I don’t think anyone here would say Billy doesn’t deserve the honor. So maybe it’ll be next year, or the year after, till Andre gets in.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jan 13, 2009 7:51 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

The difference is...

Williams was a much better offensive player than Dawson. His OPS+ was 133 for his career, compared to 119 for Dawson. He had a higher average, higher slugging, and higher OBP than Dawson. I’m not saying I don’t think that Dawson should get in. I’m just saying that the case for Williams is a little easier.

The fact is that Dawson and Dale Murphy have been hurt by the era that they played in more than many/most other players. Their best years were in the late-70s through the mid-to-late 80s, which means they had few seasons to compile the HR stats that writers drool over. And they retired right as the steroids era took off, making their numbers look less impressive by the time they made the ballot.

by SouthernCub on Jan 13, 2009 8:17 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

But was OPS+

used as a criteria for Williams getting in? Was that stat even around back then?

Sweet Lou for Mayor in '11.

by blackhawk24 on Jan 13, 2009 8:25 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

It wasn't, but I wouldn't say that matters...

I was just suggesting why Williams is more defensible NOW than Dawson. The reason Dawson is borderline though (even in the writers’ criteria) is as I stated in the second paragraph (the era effect).

by SouthernCub on Jan 13, 2009 10:43 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Defence

That is what is missing with these clowns (e.g. writers). I’d bet there’s dozens of them that never saw him break to the ball in the gap or throw a runner out with that great arm.

Sweet Lou for Mayor in '11.

by blackhawk24 on Jan 13, 2009 10:34 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I do not understand

he is not the type of hitter you would want with the game on the line? What is your basis?

The Dawson I saw was the guy the team wanted at the plate and the guy the opponent feared most (see IBB). Dawson certainly is not a just toolsy player—HE ACTUALLY PRODUCED.

I think your apparent dislike for Soriano is making you project those feelings onto Dawson. Say what you will, but if Soriano continues for the next 7-8 years as a 35/20 player ending with a near .300 average he will be a HOF and you can guarantee it if he is a member of the Cubs 1st World Series championship in over 100 years. This current path puts him at 500 HR and 380 SB’s with an OPS over .850.

by socalbob on Jan 13, 2009 1:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Here

Andre Dawson, late & close (1913 PA): .267/.324/.445/.769.
Mark Grace, late & close (1564 PA): .309/.405/.437/.842.

Alfonso Soriano, late & close (774 PA): .275/.338/.449/.787.

Sometimes what you watch is really what happened. Grace was the guy I wanted at the plate in those situations. Dawson, on the other hand, not so much. I think guys like Dawson and Soriano just aren’t as productive in those though situations because they refuse to walk and because of the holes in their swings.

by Luis on Jan 13, 2009 3:23 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

those numbers

do not cover the fact that teams frequently walked him. Buck Rodgers even admitted he wanted Dawson to be a free-swinger and not take a walk because the guy behind was not as good a hitter. What you want to account for cannot be measured via a statistic.

Also, it must be nice to have Sammy hitting behind you most times.

by socalbob on Jan 13, 2009 5:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

OKeeey

When someone says that x “cannot be measured via statistic” that0s really the end of the argument, no?

Btw, Sammy Sosa late & close (1590 PA): .251/.327/.465/.792. Anyone see a pattern?……… Now I understand why I felt how I felt back then.

Also, Sosa came in to the Cubs a few years into Grace’s tenure, and Sosa wasn’t until Sosa until Grace was probably past his prime.

AND, very important, do you really that Dawson didn’t walk because of that reason? Hitters that don’t walk do so because they don’t recognize the pitches soon enough to lay off. I’m pretty sure none of them was too keen on swing at one low and away in the dirt because the guy behind wasn’t great. Great hitters, ala Bonds, will just not do that. Being a free-swinger is not a choice, is a lack of ability.

by Luis on Jan 13, 2009 5:23 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

disagree Luis on several points

end of argument – why because you refuse to acknowlege something that is not attainable unless covered by a statistic? Let’s just sim all the games via Diamond-Mind Baseball and determine each season’s results then. You want me to “buy” your position because you offer a stat. And then we can’t discuss it furhter because of some value – a human element – that there is not mertic for. Really?

The point about Sosa was regarding the hitters around a player influence the decision of the opposing manager and pitcher. “More fastballs – do not walk him because Sammy is behind him?” That was my point. But there isn’t a stat to cover that value, yet it is real.

I do not even know how to reply to your last paragraph. To bring in Bonds as an example is not apples to apples. Bonds walks because pitchers fear him and they do not even come close to throwing strikes. Hitters that do not walk have nothing to do solely with ability or pitch recognition. There is so much more to it than that and to pass it off as something so simple is disingenuous. To stick to the case of Dawson, his manager told him to expand his strike zone because he trusted him more than the guy behind him. Think of Dawson much like A-Ram. He expands his zone and doesn’t take a ton of walks. And drives in a lot of runs from his approach. Dawson was the RBI guy for his teams much like A-Ram is to this Cubs squad as they both kept the K’s at a reasonable amount putting the ball in play.

We can just agree to disagree. I think the entire metric is foolish anyway as the at bats in innings 1-6 are just as important to winning games as those in 7-9 and you are basing your judgment on taking away 2/3’s of Dawson’s other at bats. This “late and clutch” metric stinks like a “save” to me. There are as many important outs in the 6, 7, and 8 innings to win a game as the “1 Inning Save.” Oh well. Thanks for the diologue as I guess we are done here.

by socalbob on Jan 13, 2009 6:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

"Toolsy type"? What the hell does that mean? Which tool did you not

like? His rocket throwing arm or his blazing speed? Did you not like the fact that he was one of the most feared hitters in baseball? Or the fact that in his prime, before his knees went he was compared favorably to Willie Mays? The fact of the matter is that Dawson was a hell of a nasball player. He was that rare combination of speed and power that could change a game with his bat, his arm or his speed.

Don’t you dare compare him to Soriano. Soriano is an offensive player that you tolerate his poor defense because he can put up big numbers. No one would ever consider removing Andre Dawson for a defensive replacement. Up until he got old and hurt, he was always the best defender on the field. Toolsy? Give me a break.

"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris

by willie mays hayes' gloves on Jan 13, 2009 3:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Did you read what I wrote?

I said they were equal OFFENSIVELY.

by Luis on Jan 13, 2009 3:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah, I read what you wrote. You said,

“I think I give Dawson a harder time than I should is because I utterly dislike toolsy type players.” I have no idea what a “toolsy” player is. I know that Dawson could hit, run, throw and hit for power. He hustled all the time and was never a hot dog. I don’t consider them even equal offensively. Soriano can’t even run the bases effectively. You would never see Dawson fail to advance on a fly ball or not go from first to third on a ball hit to the outfield. Soriano is a slugger with some speed. That sums up his game.

"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris

by willie mays hayes' gloves on Jan 13, 2009 6:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I'd drop "hit" from the list of tools...

Dawson could hit for power, run, and throw. In terms of hitting (i.e., hitting for average), he was, well, average.

by SouthernCub on Jan 13, 2009 6:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I wouldn't.

"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris

by willie mays hayes' gloves on Jan 14, 2009 9:24 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I realize this is a Cubs site

but as baseball fans the outrage should be over Blyleven, not Dawson….

I love the Hawk and I see both sides of the argument why he should and shouldn’t be in. I can live with him being on the edge and since he’s a Cub I hope he does get in

but Blyleven….. good lord… there is no legitimate reason that guy shouldn’t be in the HOF

Top 10 in WHIP in his league, 11 times in his career
5th all-time in K’s
14th all-time in IP
9th all-time in shutouts
Top 10 in adjusted ERA in 12 seasons

You want to argue Wins….. really?

You want to argue All Star Appearances… well the voting has always been largely based on WINS

I just don’t get it.

Plus if you’re of the belief he just wasn’t “dominant” enough or his peak wasn’t as great as some other HOF caliber pitchers, look at how difficult it is for pitchers to go out and throw 200+ innings year after year and do it effectively. This guy had 14 seasons in which he pitched 200 or more innings with an ERA+ above 105, and 10 of those seasons he pitched more than 250 innings

incredible

by DartmouthCubsFan on Jan 13, 2009 8:04 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Blyleven should be in, no doubt about it (np)

by Luis on Jan 13, 2009 8:12 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Completely agree...

the arguments for Blyleven are entirely based on win totals. The writers use that argument first. Then, they support it with the lack of MVP votes (which is directly a result of the lack of wins), and then they support it with the lack of All-Star games (again, largely a result of win totals). Blyleven had the misfortune of spending most of his career as a dominant pitcher on losing teams. But he should absolutely be in the Hall.

by SouthernCub on Jan 13, 2009 8:19 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

You don't have to convince me.

Blyleven should have been in years ago. The K’s and shutouts alone do it for me.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jan 13, 2009 8:32 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

OK, Blyleven should be in

But I have a wife to maintain and dogs to walk. I have a job I’m ignoring right now to post this. I have TV shows to watch, books to read, dishes to do and poops to take.

I didn’t root for the Twins. Never have.

Sure, Blyleven should be in, but if you’re telling me that I should spend the free time I devote to this site arguing/bitching/debating a non-Cub, then I’m telling you no.

The worst beer I had was pretty good.

by Worf on Jan 13, 2009 8:40 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

ahhh... but you just did.

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Jan 13, 2009 8:56 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

You have a wife "to maintain"?

What, is she a robot?

(Hmpf, not a half-bad idea, actually. Shit, gotta go. I’LL BE RIGHT THERE, SNOOKUMS!)

RIP Ron Asheton (1948-2009)

by dat cubfan daver on Jan 13, 2009 9:29 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

My wife is wonderful

We are firm believers that the secret to a happy marriage is two televisions and the ability to entertain oneself. We also both have demanding jobs that sometimes rob us of the ability and desire to speak.

BUT… she still needs some Worf time.

Can you blame her?

The worst beer I had was pretty good.

by Worf on Jan 13, 2009 9:35 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

My condolences to your wife.

"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris

by willie mays hayes' gloves on Jan 13, 2009 9:43 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Doesn't seem like you need to maintain her at all.

So you can continue to post about the Twins.

Brian McRae's 5 o'clock shadow

by PurpleLineToWrigley on Jan 13, 2009 9:55 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

TWSS!

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Jan 13, 2009 9:57 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

just check the oil every

3000 miles, and you’re good to go.

"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella

by drewishdrewid on Jan 13, 2009 10:53 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I have to ask...

Exactly how does one check the oil?

by N Oakley on Jan 13, 2009 12:20 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

with a dipstick, of course, silly. ;-)

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Jan 13, 2009 1:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

It's doesn't matter how deep you put the dipstick in

But how much oil you can bring out!

Seriously, you guys don’t have wives or girlfriends who want to do something from time to time, taking away from your precious frittering-away-life-on-a-message-board hours?

All I’m saying is that yes, fine, great, put Bert in. But I’m sure the Bleed Twinkie Twinks or whatever that site is called has plenty of people to advocate him.

Andre is our guy. Between him and Santo, we’ve got enough on our plate.

The worst beer I had was pretty good.

by Worf on Jan 13, 2009 1:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Frittering-Away-Life-On-A-Message-Board

is exactly what you’re doing. And I think it is pretty well-documented that anyone who blogs and posts on message boards lives in their parents basement and is unemployed. So don’t lie about having a wife. Or girlfriend. We are all in this together.

Brian McRae's 5 o'clock shadow

by PurpleLineToWrigley on Jan 13, 2009 2:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs