MacPhail, Kenney and Hendry
by puckishcubsfan on Jan 19, 2009 3:37 PM CST
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PrintNow that we're 2 years removed and 3 offseasons out of the MacPhail era I've been thinking of him, Kenney and their relationship with Hendry.
Is it just me or does anyone else think MacPhail sat on Hendry?
Or if not sat on him it was too many cooks stirring the broth baseball wise?
It appears to me that Crane Kenney is exactly what the President of the Cubs should be.
Everything seems to point to him letting Hendry have complete control of the baseball end of things while Kenney concentrates on other issues.
Everyone here knows I make no secret of my respect and like of Hendry but I think we're seeing what this man can do when left to do his job.
What do you all think?
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
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My position is...
MacPhail was more into the business side of things than the baseball side of things. The team didn’t have the high payroll (respective to the entire MLB) as they do now, he had the rooftop fiasco to deal with for some time and most importantly, he didn’t have the “luxury” of being Pres. when the team was on the auction block (making it attractive to perspective owners).
I’m not saying he didn’t nix some moves Hendry wanted to make, I simply think he was in a much different position than Kenney is at the present.
Sweet Lou for Mayor in '11.
There is no question MacPhail held the team back with his small-market mentality.
As soon as Kenney & McDonough took over, changes were made. It really is as simple as that.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
Budget-wise, yes
But as far as making baseball decisions (I realize they aren’t mutually exclusive), I agree with blackhawk — the GMs had the authority. MacPhail was also a participant in rules committees and labor negotiations, further limiting his time to be “GM Emeritus”.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jan 19, 2009 3:57 PM CST up reply actions
Remember, MacPhail was GM himself for a while, too.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
I was told by a good source that McPhail has always aspired to be the Commish
This invaded his philosophy of big market versus small market management and believed that the corporate structure and environment of the Cubs liked this highly operational profitable stance of the club. This endeared McPhail to the small market clubs as well as Reinsdorf as he placed arbitrary limitations on the Cubs.
Now the difference is striking as the Cubs are now the second highest ticket on the MLB planet and catching Boston. Ironically when I mentioned this to a source he said so is the Chicago Symphony ticket….duh!
Be the best, charge the most, get the best talent.
McPhail’s timing didn’t work as Selig has stayed on and on and on. Selig will go when MLB is going through contraction will involve another magician. He is now with a horrible owner who is full of ego and mistakes.
Piniella: "This is a tougher job than I thought it would be, I'm going to be honest with you."
Yes, but when he wasn't
Lynch and Hendry made their own decisions within the constraints that they were given.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jan 19, 2009 8:26 PM CST up reply actions
Agree...
…plenty of teams won with a lessor payroll than the Cubs during McPhails days, as did McPhail’s Twins when he was in MN.
IMO, McPhail did what the Trib wanted him to do – concentrate on the business side and maximize profits. When the pressure to win (after 03) increased, they launched him, knowing the club was going to be sold.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
On the other hand...
… there’s no doubt the Cubs have made money under Kenney AND also played to win. You can do both.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
No doubt...
…but I really really feel like a big reason for the open wallet (in the last few years) has been because the Trib knew they would be selling and the long term payroll would be on someone else’s plate.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
Or maybe they wanted to go out a winner.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
Al...
…you have more faith in their intentions than I, but you certainly could be right.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
I don't think MacPhail really cared about winning.
I do think McDonough did, and Kenney does.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
Agreed.
I imagine that MacPhail preferred to win. But it had to be on his terms.
The decisions made during the MacPhail era indicate that, to the extent MacPhail wanted to win, he wanted to win on the cheap, by catching lightning in a bottle with second-tier guys, cast-offs and has-beens. They were aspiring to be a slightly-above-average team with a slightly-above-average payroll that maybe could make the playoffs on occasion.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
sorry...
… but this is just plain silly… any idea that MacPhail didn’t want to win is asinine. People can have their opinions on MacPhail’s philosophies and his weaknesses. We can do the same about anyone, but these guys are ALL sports professionals. Even people like Carl Pohlad and Bud Selig, the true penny pinchers of the game cared about winning. The are sports professionals. Don Grenesko and Stanton Cook, who were corp types from Trib Tower and cared about the bottom line to the nth degree cared about winning.
I think that any sports professional would scoff at the idea that anyone who reaches the level of a GM, coach, or other high level sports front office position does not care about winning. These guys toil away at all levels of the game and work their rears off. I think any statement that these guys don’t care about winning is just ridiculous.
Maybe he cared about winning.
But he didn’t care enough to try to get enough money to run the Cubs like the big-market team they were, and still are.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
again
we have no idea why the change in fiscal output from Trib Tower happened. I think its much more likely that the powers that be knew the team was being sold and they had to raise payroll, especially following the White Sox winning a title in order to maintain their role Chicago’s team.
If the latter were the case...
… they’d have done it after the 2005 season.
And if that were the case, they wouldn’t have known the team was being sold, because that announcement wasn’t made till AFTER all the big signings in the 2006-07 offseason.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
my point...
… is that there are often a series of events that lead up to things. The Sox success may have been one of them. I’m just saying that its very possible that after the Cubs had several really poor seasons the folks at Trib Tower finally realized that they had to spend money. I don’t buy the concept that MacPhail was turning away tens of millions of dollars in payroll. I understand his philosophy of not spending like, well, like Hendry spent two off seasons ago. But I think there were a lot of factors at play and again, it was TribCo that for years paid the Cubs less than fair value for Cubs broadcast rights (for WGN).
I think you have it backwards.
He may not have “turned away tens of millions of dollars in payroll”. The point is, as the GM of a major market team, he should have been ASKING for it.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
I don't think any of us know
A GM or President goes in and asks for an extra $5M to the budget. This was the higher ups determining that they weren’t even in the ballpark of what was necessary.
My recollection was that Tribco was very clear about the budget being in the $90M range. MacPhail said that he did not expect the team to be in the luxury tax bracket. But I really believe that it was folks at Tribco that set the general area of spending.
He probably didn't battle...
…for more dough, but we are fooling ourselves if we think the Trib was not pleased to death with the overall job that he did.
Again, it wasn’t until they knew the club would eventually be sold, that they decided to have a sense of urgency. You have to take it for what it is.
I am no huge McPhail fan, but the dude won two WS championships with lessor resources in MN. I think that happened because he was more involved with the baseball operations, and in Chicago, he became more of a corporate suit.
In MN, he was successful because the baseball people beneath him did a bang up job (and still are today). The Twins still have one of the most respected scouting departments and minor league development people in the game. In Chicago, those same people didn’t deliver for him. In the end, that responsibilty did fall on him, because he was in charge.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
MacPhail was GM until 2002...
… the same position he had in Minnesota. I agree, he had better people underneath him there than he did with the Cubs.
After he moved upstairs to become team president, that’s when things seemed to get “cheaper”, for lack of a better term.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
They were cheaper before he was GM, too
He only served in that capacity for 1 1/2 years, between Lynch and Hendry.
Lynch is a perfect example of a baseball person beneath him that wasn’t capable.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jan 22, 2009 5:52 AM CST up reply actions
I think that the empty seats in late 2006
had a LOT to do with it
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jan 21, 2009 8:37 PM CST up reply actions
I never said he didn't care.
No one is saying that MacPhail preferred losing, or didn’t care about winning, or didn’t want to win. Of course he did.
However, it seems pretty obvious that MacPhail wanted the Cubs to win… as a mid-market team. During the first half of this decade, there were a series of elite free agents entering the prime of their careers who we now know that the Cubs could have afforded – even if we’d had to outbid the market by 10%.
Instead, we went with Todd Hollandsworth and Jeromy Burnitz and Jacque Jones and so on.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
the free agents you mentioned...
first off, with Vlad, the Cubs still did have Sosa and the two play the same position.
As for Carlos Beltran there are plenty of Mets fans who would prefer he not be playing in NY. You also point out for yourself why Tejada was a red flag.
I won’t deny the lack of big free agent spending (though Bruce Miles points out the rather large deal he extended to Mike Hampton). I just don’t think we know why the stream of cash was opened when it was. I tend to believe TribCo realized they had to start spending like a big market team, which coincided with the departure of MacPhail.
Those arguments don't hold water, though.
Putting Sammy or Vlad in LF for the 2004 season would have been an easy fix. Or, as we now know, Sammy and/or Moises could have been moved.
Any Mets fans who want to be rid of Beltran are, for lack of a better word, stupid, and their opinions are without merit and should not be cited as evidence in support of a position in this forum. Beltran’s OPS+ in the last 3 years have been 150, 126, 129. That’s Hall of Fame level production – his 2006 season is comparable to most HOFers career years.
As for Tejada — we can talk about steroids, but at this point, we can also say that his O’s contract has come and gone, and he was very productive, and was never busted for any performance enhancing drugs.
I think that his 131 OPS+ in 2004 out of the SS position would have been beneficial (and likely would have put the Cubs over the top), not to mention his huge 2005 and 2006 seasons while the Cubs were wandering in the wilderness with a series of cast-offs.
The fact that MacPhail zeroed in on Mike Hampton, of all people, as the guy to bet the franchise on, is not a point in his favor, either.
I don’t think that we’re going to get you to agree that MacPhail put some constraints on the team, to a certain extent, in order to control payroll and maximize revenue, but even you have to admit that the circumstantial evidence is pretty overwhelming. And the quotes from people in the know aren’t exactly hurting the argument, either.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
so wait...
… when MacPhail won’t spend money on free agents you want he’s an obstructionist of payroll enhancement but when he will big top dollar on a free agent you don’t like, it’s irrelevant? That doesn’t hold water.
Remember, he didn't actually spend that money.
He was willing to spend a lot of money, but wasn’t willing to to whatever it took to land the big fish.
In retrospect, he lucked out with regard to Hampton.
He was too cautious by half with regard to Guerrero, Tejada, and Beltran.
And now, unfortunately, the cash that the Cubs could have spent on Guerrero and Beltran is going to Fukudome and Soriano, respectively.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
Hampton
He was so overwhelmed with money by the Rockies but he also wanted to pitch there due to family issues and the fact that his dad was going to take a job coaching up in Evergreen, CO at the high school.
Look, I’ve never denied that MacPhail didn’t shy away from handing out the richest of the rich contracts. But he also had no problems handing out very large contracts to his own players (Wood, Lee and others). I frankly cannot recall a single decent free agent the Cubs let go between the first departure of Greg Maddux and then Kerry Wood leaving for Cleveland. Moises Alou was given a hefty contract as was, unfortunately, Todd Hundley.
But I believe that MacPhail’s ultimate problem was wanting to retain flexibility in terms of the deals he gave out. We have no idea what the budget handed down from Trib Co was and we have no idea what he could have gotten that pushed up to. My belief is that Dennis Fitzsimons, who was long the guy at Trib Tower overseeing the Cubs, and not Crane Kenney, was not willing to see the budget allocated approach what it is today. But the fact is that we have no idea. What we do know is that over MacPhail’s tenure more and more Cubs games on WGN moved over to FSC and then to Comcast and with that, the money the Cubs received for their broadcast rights went up drastically. More seats were added to Wrigley and ticket prices went up. More money was being made.
I think this is a very complex issue and its definitely overly simplistic to say that that the Cubs president was the reason the budget didn’t go up. It may also be just plain false. We don’t know that.
Yes...
… but I think you need to look at some of the things that happened under MacPhail that lead to this. Its hard to reckon back to the way things were before MacPhail, but in those days the Cubs games were on WGN, none on Fox Sports or Comcast and Tribco was paying the Cubs not near true value for the broadcasting rights. This has changed drastically with the new broadcast agreements. MacPhail and McDonaugh also opened up several new revenue streams, started maximizing the potential of Wrigley Field, both in capacity as well as alternative streams.
Unfortunately it was Lynch that replaced Himes, but MacPhail was replacing Stanton Cook and Don Grenesko. There were no doubt missteps by MacPhail, maybe a lot of them, but he came in and replaced some real incompetence. I do believe that as you mention that Kenney has shown that you can make money and win, part of this is due to the total change in mindset and business practices that were put into place by his predecessors.
I would agree
and Kenney (and McDonough) deserve a great deal of credit for realizing some of the mistakes of the past, and adjusting the mindset/direction of the organization.
I agree, McPhail does deserve some credit for helping the Cubs realize some of their untapped revenue streams – without those, the Cubs wouldn’t be in the position they are today to spend and have a higher payroll.
My disappointment in the McPhail era stems largely from the expectations when he came to Chicago.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
by Bill Potter on Jan 20, 2009 10:05 AM CST up reply actions
Exactly Al.
MacPhail was brought to Chicago to make money for the organization. It was the hope that it could be done on the same monetary scale that produced two WS championships in Minnesota. As we all know though, Minneapolis/St. Paul is certainly not Chicago.
Jimmyeatworld
by Jimmyeatworld on Jan 19, 2009 4:02 PM CST up reply actions
Well, that would explain a great deal...
Things like why the football team wears purple and there’s so few decent hot dog stands!
Although Chicago certainly FELT like Minnesota...
…for a couple days last week.
RIP Ron Asheton (1948-2009)
Doesn't matter...
…its still baseball and you have to win on the field, no matter what city you are in. McPhail became a corporate suit and got away from the fundementals that have made the Twins one of the more successful franchises (player development and wins per dollars spent) over the last 20 years.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
payroll is not an arbitrary exercise, it is derived from revenues
Cubs have raised tic prices to the 2nd highest, that is called permission and having marketing and sales go, go, go…..Cubs were at the high $80’s at the end of the McPhail era and have grown to $100s to $120’s to now $140’sM.
Cubs also have gone from almost reaching 2.7M attendance to 3M to 3.3M, so they have raised prices considerably and sold more seats to now they are at 100% selling capacity.
That allows them to spend, but McPhail would also put restraints on selling and selling at high prices.
Piniella: "This is a tougher job than I thought it would be, I'm going to be honest with you."
Agree and disagree
I think the wallet really opened once the Trib knew the club was going to be sold, hence all the backloaded deals that would not impact profitability as much while they were still at the helm. I really think the answer is somewhere in the middle.
I will always stick to one important piece; Hendry has been running the farm (in one form or another) since 1994 and his track record is not good with position players. McPhail’s philosophy was to develop pitching and they did pretty well in that area, but I think Hendry had a flawed philosophy in regards to how they scouted, drafted and developed position players. I believe this flaw is less today than it was a few years ago, but Felix Pie is the lastest victim from it.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
Curious
ctsb100,
Not sure what you mean by “Is it just me or does anyone else think MacPhail sat on Hendry?” Could you elaborate on what you mean by this specifically. Sat on him how and when? It may just be you.
by Acapulco Taco Pie on Jan 19, 2009 4:08 PM CST reply actions
Not a pleasant image, is it?
Based on pictures I’ve seen of MacPhail, however, it would probably be worse the other way around.
RIP Ron Asheton (1948-2009)
Meant figuratively
Meant figuratively. He sat on him and limited what he could do.
And the response below is right. It is good that it wasn’t literally the other way around although by looks of some of the pics of the convention he seems to have lost some weight.
Barbara V. October 14, 1941 - December 19, 2008. A great lady who was a friend to all and like a second mom to her children's friends (she was my best friend's mom)
by puckishcubsfan on Jan 19, 2009 7:55 PM CST up reply actions
Wow.
“Is it just me or does anyone else think MacPhail sat on Hendry?”
It’s just you, buddy.
“Everyone here knows I make no secret of my respect and like of Hendry but I think we’re seeing what this man can do when left to do his job.”
In other words, you like Jim Hendry, but he’s doing a good job?
Good Lord.
CUBS WIN! CUE THE ORCHESTRA!
How can you say
he’s NOT doing a good job? No GM is perfect, but he’s got a vision of what he wants the team to look like, he follows it, and most of the time, since 2003, they’ve been competitive.
What else do you want? His acquisitions of DLee and ARam were brilliant. At the time the Nomar trade looked great, and many others as well (signing DeRo in the first place, but maybe not trading him).
I’m glad he’s our GM. Who would you rather have? And if you say Epstein, I could point out several of his trades/signings that have been horrible.
I have nothing funny or creative to write.
by Canadian Cubs Fan on Jan 19, 2009 5:27 PM CST up reply actions
Where did I say I don't want Jim Hendry as the Cubs' GM?
I was pointing out the poster’s questionable diction, not attacking him for having a pro-Hendry stance. Reading comprehension is your friend.
CUBS WIN! CUE THE ORCHESTRA!
Who appointed you the diction police?
Your contributions here would be more appreciated if you’d cut the snark.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
MacPhail
As a veteran MacPhail apologist here I’ll post my two cents worth. Its clear that once MacPhail left that spending went way up. What we do not know, however, is why that happened. Was it a result of MacPhail’s philosophy and his departure? Was it a change in the amount that the higher ups at Trib Tower were willing to spend? Did Hendry, following MacPhail’s ouster get a directive from the folks at the Tower to spend spend spend?
We know that MacPhail had a belief that it was wise to maintain payroll flexibility. We’ve now seen how straying from that has hampered Hendry. But I think that once MacPhail stepped down and Baker soon followed the powers that be knew that money had to be spent. I believe that dollars were provided for the Cubs that were never available under MacPhail.
There certainly were significant errors on the part of MacPhail. The top two were hiring (and sticking with) a wholly inept GM in Ed Lynch and not rebuilding from the start (as he is doing with Balimore). MacPhail held the philosophy that you hire people and let them do their job. This flies in the face of the concept that MacPhail would have sat on Hendry. Hendry may not have had the money to do some of the things he wanted but that may not have been because of MacPhail.
The final think that I’ll say is that MacPhail did do a lot to bring the Cubs into a more modern front office era. He followed the likes of Larry Himes and Jim Frey under the leadership of Stanton Cook and Don Grenesko. These people had no idea how to run a baseball front office in a big money age and often times players were not treated well. MacPhail cleaned up a lot of mess. Unfortunately he was President first and foremost, which is a position that often goes to nameless suits. He filled both roles for a short time. IMO its really too bad that he could not have held the role exclusively that he was successful in with the Twins.
MacPhail didn't "step down".
He was fired.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
well technically
he stepped down during a press conference immediately following the end of the season. He may have been forced out and this let him save face. I’m not privy to the inner workings of the Cubs front office.
That's exactly what happened.
He was allowed to resign. Had he not resigned, he’d have been forced out.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
no confidence is the precise definition
he was allowed to exit respectively since in MLB decisions don’t take place until after the season once August begins….oh little stuff like who gets called up but by then it is locked in.
Piniella: "This is a tougher job than I thought it would be, I'm going to be honest with you."
Complex subject
On a personal level, I find Andy the best person I’ve ever dealt with in baseball. He’s honest, honorable, well-read and cares deeply about the game. The fact that the players did not go out on a destructive strike in 2002 is owed a great deal to the trust the players placed in MacPhail and his reasoned approach with them. (That and the players, such as Glavine, taking the lead from Don Fehr.)
In a lot of ways, I think he was a better GM than he was a president. His biggest mistake as president was hiring Ed Lynch, who clearly wasn’t ready to be GM. However, MacPhail was contractually bound with the Twins not to accept a GM job when he left Minnesota.
When he did assume the dual roles in 2000, he made some good moves, most of which were the right ones, even if they didn’t turn out that way, at least at first glance. His pickup of Rondell White in 2000 was a good one; White could never stay healthy. In the off-season, the signings of Fassero and Gordon solidified the bullpen. Fassero saved the Cubs’ bacon as closer while Gordon was hurt. Julian Tavarez was more than serviceable, if a little goofy. Bill Mueller was an outstanding pickup, and I think the Cubs would have won the division if Mueller had not suffered that terrible injury. Matt Stairs and Ron Coomer were hugely important in the clubhouse.
The Hundley signing was bad, as were letting Miguel Cairo and Gary Matthews Jr. go on waivers in 2001 and keeping Augie Ojeda. The McGriff trade is another that should have turned out better. MacPhail signed Moises Alou after the ’01 season, but Alou got hurt right away in the spring of ’02, which turned out to be a disaster of a season, leading to the change of GM to Hendry in July, when Baylor was fired as manager.
Andy’s approach was a measured one, probably to a fault. In a column, I wrote that you could picture him in line at the grocery story mulling the choice between paper and plastic while the line grew behind him.
Andy’s done some good things in Baltimore, trying to rescue another franchise.
No doubt his tenure at Wrigley was a disappointment overall; there’s no denying that. It wasn’t for lack of sincerety, however.
Thanks for filling in the details, Bruce.
I love the “paper vs. plastic” image. I can see that, too.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
baseball isn't personal
Is it possible for the media to judge the performance of someone based on the job they do and not whether or not they seem like a decent guy? I personally do not know or care if MacPhail was a sincere person or honorable. Can anyone come out and admit that he probably got a job in baseball because of his father? This to me is a huge problem when the people reporting on a subject, in this case a baseball team, are swayed by their personal feelings for an individual in the organization. MacPhail did not get the job done in Chicago and he never said that it was his goal to win the World Series. I heard it reported numerous times that he would go to Trib Co and tell them he didn’t want a bigger budget. That is ridiculous. He never did what was necessary to put the best possible team on the field and that has changed since he left.
by Acapulco Taco Pie on Jan 19, 2009 5:04 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
That's a bit harsh
In my not so expert opinion, MacPhail’s failing was that he never chose a path — build the organization from the ground up (ie “blow up” the team and start over) or go all out — he tried to do both halfway.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jan 19, 2009 8:33 PM CST up reply actions
I object to you calling him "well-read".
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jan 19, 2009 5:41 PM CST up reply actions
huh?
Still waiting for you to add an intelligent thought to the discussion.
by Acapulco Taco Pie on Jan 19, 2009 5:45 PM CST up reply actions
One thing
One thing I always kind of wondered is what if Ed Lynch was never hired and Andy was GM while grooming Jim Hendry?
Barbara V. October 14, 1941 - December 19, 2008. A great lady who was a friend to all and like a second mom to her children's friends (she was my best friend's mom)
by puckishcubsfan on Jan 19, 2009 8:23 PM CST up reply actions
No, it isn't personal
And I wrote many critical columns and stories about MacPhail. And we used to get into some pretty good arguments. At one point, he told me that I didn’t “get it.” I told him I wasn’t the one in last place. And this was about midway through his tenure, long before the public had grown disenchanted with him. I judge everybody on the job they did. (I liked Dusty Baker personally but was highly critical of him.) You may have heard it reported (by whom?) that MacPhail didn’t want bigger budgets. That’s oversimplifying it and in some ways, falsifying it. And guess what, if that little eighth-inning thing doesn’t happen in Game 6 of ’03 and the Cub go on to the Series, MacPhail is probably still here.
Bruce
One thing I like about you and always have is that reading you everyday I don’t know who you like and don’t like personally. Too many reporters in Chicago make it blatantly obvious.
Barbara V. October 14, 1941 - December 19, 2008. A great lady who was a friend to all and like a second mom to her children's friends (she was my best friend's mom)
by puckishcubsfan on Jan 19, 2009 8:22 PM CST up reply actions
sources
Bruce, Did Andy ever tell you that it was his goal for the Cubs to win the World Series? During MacPhail’s tenure I read it in print and heard it discussed on radio that he didn’t think the Cubs needed a bigger budget. I even remember listening to him being interviewed on the radio and stating that he thought they didn’t have to have a top budget to put together a competitive team. I’m not taking you to task personally for your coverage of MacPhail. I would also state that it’s probably human nature for reporters to cut a little more slack to their subject when their subject treats them well. As crushing as the defeat of game 6 was to this franchise, if it resulted in MacPhail’s departure then I suppose something positive did come out of it. To my recollection the lack of fans in the seats when they were losing in his final season here had a lot to do with his departure as well.
by Acapulco Taco Pie on Jan 19, 2009 5:17 PM CST reply actions
Read into what you're saying
During MacPhail’s tenure I read it in print and heard it discussed on radio that he didn’t think the Cubs needed a bigger budget. I even remember listening to him being interviewed on the radio and stating that he thought they didn’t have to have a top budget to put together a competitive team.
Him saying on the radio that he didn’t think the Cubs needed a bigger budget is very different than him going to TribCo brass and turning down offers of more money. Have you ever seen a baseball team official come out in the media and say that his team is not spending enough money? If so, I assume that person soon after lost his job. He said during his tenure that the Cubs were spending enough money to win and he was correct. They were spending enough money, just not spending it very well.
You can consider the MacPhail era a total failure and thats your right but you’re missing the bigger picture as to what MacPhail’s job was. Yes, it was to get the Cubs to win but it was much more than that. As a team president you’re responsible for the overall health of the entire franchise. If you can recall the pre-MacPhail Cubs you’d recall a bumbling front office and a bunch of dolts from TribCo royally screwing things up. If nothing else MacPhail should be remembered as a point-A to point-B person and he has a big role in bringing a professional mentality to the Cubs and is a big part of why this team is no longer a joke.
parsing
You are parsing what I am saying. Those things are not mutually exclusive it was reported that he told Trib brass he didn’t need to increase budget to win. I didn’t make that up. I also heard him stating publicly that they didn’t want to be one of the top spenders in the game. They were one of the top earners so why not put that money into payroll? I consider MacPhail to have not gotten the job done since the Cubs didn’t even come close to winning a World Series during his tenure. It’s no surprise though because it was never his stated goal for this franchise to win a World Series. You may have been satisfied with that, I was not. I remember a front office under Dallas Green that put winning first and Trib Co ran him out of town. Andy MacPhail had plenty of time and resources, had he chosen to use them, to build a team to compete for the World Series, he failed.
by Acapulco Taco Pie on Jan 19, 2009 5:39 PM CST up reply actions
you have no idea...
… what resources MacPhail was give. Sorry but I trust the Cubs beat writer over you and he is clearly saying that your claims that MacPhail turning away money from TribCo are false.
I have no idea?
I am not saying Bruce’s sources were inaccurate. To clarify, what was reported by other beat reporters is that MacPhail did not try to get Trib Co to spend more, not that he was offered money and refused it. You are taking my words out of context and arguing against claims I didn’t make. I don’t particularly care what you choose to believe but MacPhail himself said he didn’t want the Cubs to be one of the top spending teams in the game, like they are now. Defend MacPhail all you would like but his methods did not result in a World Series victory.
by Acapulco Taco Pie on Jan 19, 2009 6:01 PM CST up reply actions
Neither have any of the other GMs since...oh....190-something.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jan 19, 2009 6:14 PM CST up reply actions
You are not completely wrong, Acapulco
Let’s avoid splitting hairs here because you do indeed make good points. MacPhail probably tried to run the Cubs on the philosophy that worked in Minnesota. He was much too incremental in his approach with the player payroll here. Although he never turned down money, he probably didn’t push hard enough to get more. That said, he offered Mike Hampton a $105 million contract in the fall of 2000. Good thing for the Cubs Hampton decided to go to Colorado, I guess, because he liked the schools there. I appreciate your point of view.
appreciate your response
Bruce, I appreciate your response and views as well. Thanks for your incite.
by Acapulco Taco Pie on Jan 19, 2009 7:35 PM CST up reply actions
We're going in circles
To me, your portrayal of things makes it seem as though MacPhail was in a board meeting and the higher-ups were handing him money and he was handing it back. MacPhail has a series of philosophies, amongst them was to not spend for spending sake. Also was the desire to have payroll flexibility and we’ve now seen the result of going in the face of that. The Cubs have taken on some very cumbersome contracts and have had to get rid of players they’d rather have kept but cannot afford to. The bottom line is that we have no idea what kind of money MacPhail had to deal with and whether or not TribCo brass opened the flow of money to the Cubs after MacPhail left. One thing that did change was the move, first off, of more games from WGN to Fox Sports and then to Comcast Sports Net. The result of that has been the Cubs actually getting fair market money for their broadcasting rights… something that did not always happen.
MacPhail did not win a world series and yes, that was a failure. But your characterization makes it seem as though that was not something MacPhail was interested in. I find that absurd. You need MacPhail to come out and pound the table to prove this? There are a wide variety of GMs with different personas. MacPhail was not that guy and if that contributed to your dislike of him, so be it. But I think to almost believe that MacPhail was less than committed to winning a world series simply because he did not pound his fist and scream, well thats silly. John McDonaugh did make that statement yet he left the Cubs without having done so. Does that make him less of a failure?
What I think you’re selling short is the fact that a President has many roles, not just player personnel and what happens on the field. MacPhail, as president, had a lot of things to deal with. Dallas Green was a long time ago but the guys that MacPhail followed (Frey, Himes, Grenesko and Stanton Cook) made quite a mess. MacPhail cleaned that up. He likely got too involved in the 2002 labor stuff and that took him away from his Cubs role. Bruce points out well that had the Cubs been able to take care of business on the field than the MacPhail tenure very well could have included more post-season success. That didn’t happen and its easy to call his era a failure, but I guess I believe things are much more complicated than that.
taken out of context again
Where did I state or imply anything about MacPhail’s persona? Did I suggest he should pound tables? You can make your point without skewing mine, can’t you? You even say my dislike of him, I disliked the job he did and felt it was inadequate. My whole point is it’s not about his personality or whether anyone likes the guy. I don’t see how you can compare McDonaugh when he didn’t have the kind of time on the job that MacPhail did. That’s just silly to compare the two.
I do give McDonaugh credit since he did in fact state that the goal of the organization is to win a World Series and yes I do think it is important to have that message voiced from the top down. I don’t believe he ranted and raved or did any table pounding, he simply gave his organizations mission statement, a pretty standard procedure. I’m not trying to simplify things by saying MacPhail’s era was a failure. I’m saying due to the results and his actions I do not believe that winning a World Series was his number one priority. What I witnessed led me to believe that the bottom line financially was his biggest concern. My opinion is based upon my observations, you needn’t agree but please stop twisting what I say and adding your own meaning to it. I have at least backed up my opinions with statements that detail actions taken by MacPhail, not mere speculation.
What I find interesting is that you complain about the current spending even though it has gotten us back to back division titles. First time that has happened in 100 years. What do you want to see them do? This organization has been more successful with Hendry in charge and MacPhail out of the picture. Hendry is setting this team up nicely to contend for another division title which is the only way a team has a shot at getting to the World Series.
by Acapulco Taco Pie on Jan 19, 2009 8:47 PM CST up reply actions
Pounding tables
The next step after pounding sand?
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jan 19, 2009 9:05 PM CST up reply actions
you've backed up your opinions...
… by saying that you recall this and that from columnists. I’m not sure what you’ve backed up.
I don’t seem to get your point about you needing your GM/President to come out and reassure you that his goal is to win a world series. I believe that is about personality. I’m not sure why you doubt that MacPhail’s goal was to win a world series but you do. But the fact of the matter is that the goal of a team president is much more than winning a world series. He wasn’t the GM, he was the president, and in that role, he had to do a heck of a lot more than manage what was happening on the field.
McDonaugh was here for the amount of time he decided to be here. He bolted when he had a better opportunity. He also started from a hell of a lot better point than MacPhail did. He came into an organization that wasn’t the Mickey Mouse organization that Himes and Cook left.
My complaint about spending is that I believe Hendry has wasted a ton of money. I have an issue because I think for the money that Hendry has spent, the Cubs could have a lot better. Hendry has spent a ton of money on marginal talent. I believe that Hendry has misallocated money and could have spent it much better.
back it up
MacPhail himself said that he didn’t want to be a team that has a high payroll. That didn’t come from anyone but him but you seem to ignore that fact. I didn’t have to interpret anything. MacPhail was both GM and President while he was here and I find it strange that he would talk about limiting his budget but not winning. That to me showed his priorities. Just because the guys before him sucked doesn’t mean he did his job well. Even Crane Kenney, the current President reiterated the other day that his goal is to win the World Series, I guess he doesn’t realize that isn’t something he needs to say.
McDonough left because ownership was changing and he wanted job security, that was smart. Smarter than anything MacPhail ever did.
You want to defend MacPhail and then you attack Hendry by saying he has, “wasted a ton of money.” At least we have back to back division titles to show for that money. You have to win the division to have a chance to win a World Series which is the object of the exercise. The Cubs had the best team in the NL over a 162 game season last year yet you characterize the team as being of “marginal talent.” Over 162 the best team normally wins out. You believe Hendry could have spent his money better but you don’t know what his options were and the money he spent has produced winning ball clubs. It looks like all that wasted money on marginal talent is going to give the Cubs a good shot at winning their division again this season. Let’s hope he can do what MacPhail couldn’t, build a World Series winner.
by Acapulco Taco Pie on Jan 19, 2009 9:39 PM CST up reply actions
The final year
The last months of 2006 certainly hastened his departure. Be careful of what you hear “reported” because nobody reporting those things was ever in a budget meeting. Talking with Trib people, they say that MacPhail didn’t go in and say, “You know what, I don’t need all this money you’re offering me” and then turned it back to them. That’s just silly. MacPhail’s teams won two World Series in Minnesota, and nobody in this game ever gets into it NOT wanting to win. You don’t have to state that in a public forum. That makes for nice publicity and sound bites, but it really doesn’t mean anything if the team doesn’t win it all. My other friend, Mr. McDonough, did come out and say that, and we’re still waiting.
Here is what I wrote in a column late in the summer of 2006:
“If the College of Coaches era is the most ridiculed period in modern team history, Cubs fans have every right to believe the MacPhail era is the most disappointing, based on the expectations MacPhail brought with him and the deep pockets of the team’s ownership, the Tribune Co.
—— "To be fair, we must point out that under MacPhail the Cubs modernized Wrigley Field without compromising the historic ballpark’s beauty. The Cubs have generated new streams of revenue and increased their baseball scouting and development efforts in talent-rich Latin America.
—— "But the end results in the standings have been disappointing overall and in some years downright disastrous.”
agreed
I couldn’t agree with you more about the end result. If you want to give him credit for attempting to modernize Wrigley, well, I would have to say what he did was try to increase revenue streams. Not that, that is a bad thing. The stadium is crumbling and was under his tenure and he didn’t seem too concerned with getting it fixed.
by Acapulco Taco Pie on Jan 19, 2009 5:43 PM CST up reply actions
Agreed +1
Unless we were in budget meeting we don’t know what happened. Plus the biggest point is the luck of it all. If Soriano had injured his neck in his first year here (God Forbid) and was done even though we would be paying him for 6 more years of not playing would Hendry look smart? Or if Lilly and Hardin went down immediatley? He’s taken risks and most of the chips have fallen in his favor. Mind you I like Hendry a lot, but he’s no John Scheurholz (sp).
Request
Bruce Miles you add a great deal to this blog and would appreciate if you would actively participate in discussions alot more. Some of the posters like myself live far away and depend on this blog everyday for all things Cubs. Thank You.
I dont care who the new owner is as long as he/she/them come equipped with a Jake Peavy and a Joe Beimel!!!
Glad to participate
And I hope you’ll check out my own blog at dailyherald.com. It’s called Chicago’s Inside Pitch. Al runs a great site here.
Bruce
Bruce thank you for chiming in and very interesting perspective. I was actually thinking to myself it would be interesting to hear from you on this.
Barbara V. October 14, 1941 - December 19, 2008. A great lady who was a friend to all and like a second mom to her children's friends (she was my best friend's mom)
by puckishcubsfan on Jan 19, 2009 7:57 PM CST up reply actions
Lots of variables
As I mentioned above, what happens if the infamous eighth inning turns out differently. And then, what happens if the end of ‘04 happens differently. With the acquisition of Nomar in July of ’04, the Cubs looked to have the best team in the NL. Then the hurricane hit, and the Cubs were forced to play a lot of games in a short period of time. And if they beat the Mets on thate fateful Saturday in New York, it’s almost impossible for the Astros to get back into it. Those things are not in the hands of the GM and team president at that point. The manager certainly could have handled his club differently in the second half of ‘04 instead of picking fights with TV announcers and so forth. The Cubs were put in position to win in ’03 and ’04. They just didn’t get it done on the field when it counted. That’s more on the players and the manager.
Counterfactuals
I love playing counterfactuals what if one thing changed.
What is Hendry like to deal with? Is he is personable and outgoing as he seems to be? (I can understand if you don’t feel comfortable answering since you deal with him all the time).
He just seems like an everyday Joe type of guy.
Barbara V. October 14, 1941 - December 19, 2008. A great lady who was a friend to all and like a second mom to her children's friends (she was my best friend's mom)
by puckishcubsfan on Jan 19, 2009 8:19 PM CST up reply actions
yeah I will check it out
Al does run a great site here. I personally would love it if Al would got recognized alot more for what he has done for fans like myself. If there was anything you could do I would be greatly appreciative as I do read your work daily here in Oklahoma Bruce.
I dont care who the new owner is as long as he/she/them come equipped with a Jake Peavy and a Joe Beimel!!!
is there any way
to just get the Cubs entries? I wouldn’t want Dr. Crawdad to think I’m unduly paying attention to the Albino Under-Shoe Foot-Hoods.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on Jan 20, 2009 12:47 PM CST up reply actions
I'm kind of serious
I’ve absolutely no interest in reading about the White Sox. Oh, crap, it’s like saying Beetlejuice three times…
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on Jan 20, 2009 2:01 PM CST up reply actions
I am totally jealous of the Chicago White Sox.
Chicago White.
Sox.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jan 20, 2009 2:58 PM CST up reply actions
He did do well
MacPhail did a good job with the renovation of the ballpark and such so it wasn’t a complete disaster but I think we expected a whole lot when he came here.
Barbara V. October 14, 1941 - December 19, 2008. A great lady who was a friend to all and like a second mom to her children's friends (she was my best friend's mom)
by puckishcubsfan on Jan 19, 2009 8:20 PM CST up reply actions
So did everyone
That’s the most disappointing aspect of his tenure here. He had this great reputation as a “boy wonder” when he came here from Minnesota, and the Cubs never got it done under his watch. A season like 2006 was completely inexcusable, and it led directly to his leaving.
Commisioner
What do you think about the on and off rumblings about him and the Commish job?
I actually think McDonough would have been a great choice.
Barbara V. October 14, 1941 - December 19, 2008. A great lady who was a friend to all and like a second mom to her children's friends (she was my best friend's mom)
by puckishcubsfan on Jan 19, 2009 8:26 PM CST up reply actions
MacPhail as Commish
I don’t know if that’s in the cards anymore. He is the one guy who’d have the trust of the players and owners. John McDonough landed in a pretty good spot and is doing a great job. I don’t know if he’d be able to be as creative or have the freedom he has now in the baseball commissioner’s job.
Yes he did a great job of putting up nets to catch falling concrete rather than renovating the stadium so it would be safe for fans
Nets are much cheaper than renovations….Good call Andy and Tribco…always looking out for #1 – their bottom line
by scrappywhiteguy on Jan 19, 2009 10:01 PM CST up reply actions
It was disappointing.
Each year, it seemed that the MacPhail Cubs passed on the top guys and went after a cheaper alternative. And wound up saving a less-than-significant amount of cash, while watching the alternatives flounder.
After 2003, Vladimir Guererro was begging teams to sign him, and the Cubs passed, ostensibly because Sosa still had one year (and, I believe, an option year) left on his deal and we couldn’t bear the 1-year overlap in the 2 high-salaried outfielders.
Vlad got a multi-year deal worth $13M-ish each season. The Cubs wound up paying Jeromy Burnitz $4.5M, then Jacque Jones $5.5M, and wound up with an absolutely laughable outfield in 2005 and 2006.
They also passed on Miguel Tejada that offseason. Although we fans weren’t privy to whatever steroid whispers may have surrounded him at the time, so I’m speaking with imperfect information, he would have been an ideal fit for the 2004 Cubs. Absolutely ideal. (Moreover, we were employing Sammy Sosa at the time, so, glass houses and all that.)
Miguel signed for $13M-ish with Baltimore, and the Cubs wound up trading for Nomar Garciaparra and paying a good portion of his $11M 2004 salary, and $8.25M in 2005, for very little production. And then engaging in trade talks with Baltimore over Tejada for the next several years.
After 2004, we passed on Carlos Beltran - the guy who had just spent the second half of that season almost single-handedly dragging the Astros past the Cubs, to the top of the Central, and then to the Series.
Beltran signed for a deal that was striking similar to what the Cubs gave a lesser (and older) player, Alfonso Soriano, after the 2006 season.
In the meantime, the Cubs tried to fill the CF position with Corey Patterson in 2005, and, in what we can all agree is the nadir of Hendry’s term as GM, the Juan Pierre trade in 2006.
Which hurts all the more knowing that we passed on Kenny Lofton, who had a better year for the Dodgers that season on a $3M salary.
From the outside looking in, it seemed that MacPhail wanted to win, but he wanted to do so on his own terms — avoiding expensive “impact” free agents, and striving to be somewhat above-average, just good enough to occasionally make the playoffs. It was the artificial constraints that upset the fans the most.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
Hendry
He’s extremely easy to deal with. I’ve never had a problem with him returning calls. In fact yesterday, another reporter asked him about on-base percentage, and he jokingly credited me with changing the Cubs’ philosophy because I was on them so much about it. I did ask for a consultant’s fee.
He seems personable
Got pretty defensive / aggressive when I tried to ask him about the leadoff slot, though.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jan 19, 2009 8:44 PM CST up reply actions
You know what
For a 2yr period I left Government Employment and went into the business field in HVAC. I’m not sitting here saying that Hvac and baseball are anything comparable.
One thing that is comparable is baseball as a business is ever changing as is every big production business. What works today might not work tomorrow. To be fair at the time Sori for example was a 40/40 guy. What Hendry did was be the early bird in the deal that got worm. We as fans don’t know what happens behind scenes as far as negotiations go etc. We speculate all the time but we just don’t know what a player wants or is willing to accept or do.
The McPhail tenure seemingly hinged on the health of Wood and Prior and they didn’t stay healthy which lead to unsuccessful campaigns. There was plenty of blame to go around. What remains to be seen is if the big spending of the the Kenney and Hendry will be successful. Hindsight is always 20/20.
The main point is to say ,as a fan all you can ask for is a “good faith” effort to field a winner. To which I say, " They have done just that."
I dont care who the new owner is as long as he/she/them come equipped with a Jake Peavy and a Joe Beimel!!!
by cubsluver22 on Jan 19, 2009 10:08 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
The McPhail era
left a bad taste in my mouth. Perhaps it was because of my high expectations for his term. Two cogent memories linger. One was the constant battle for higher salaries which would make us a winner. George Castle claims that Andy had the essential authority over the payroll but insisted it was sufficient to “compete”, That seemed McPhail’s attitude. Put a team on the field which would merely compete, not dominate.
The second issue was the stinginess of support people in the organization. The Cubs ranked 29th out of 30 teams in office payroll. His years were limited by the impotence of the Cubs minor league players because of inadequate scouts. That was inexcusable. Andy’s mindset was that of his father Lee who thought small because of the limitations of Minnesota revenue. He never got past that and it cost the Cubs during his oversight.
If you like Selig's handling of the steroid issue, you'll love his choice for next Cub owner.
You're absolutely right about scouting...
… and other aspects of the office staff. IIRC the Cubs still rank near the bottom in full time year round employees.
Perhaps new ownership will address this issue.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
Convention and GMs
Hendry was always friendly at the convention and even answered questions as long as they were presented in a regular not attack fashion well only hedging when if you look at it maybe he couldn’t say everything he wanted to?
Barbara V. October 14, 1941 - December 19, 2008. A great lady who was a friend to all and like a second mom to her children's friends (she was my best friend's mom)
Did nomar help you write this comment?
Hendry wasn’t so friendly to me this year, btw. I’ll be posting a convetion fanpost eventually.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jan 22, 2009 1:49 PM CST up reply actions
Probably because he knew he was catching crap
from others about Wood and DeRo, which is not right. He wasn’t done at the time, still isn’t done now but since those were “popular” guys he catches shit for it.
I’m reminded of the phrase, “if you make deals to appease the fans all the time, soon you’ll be sitting with them”.
Sweet Lou for Mayor in '11.
I agree with your sentiments
But that wasn’t what I was going to ask him about. And, I started out by saying, “You may not be able to answer this, and I understand that.”
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jan 23, 2009 11:32 AM CST up reply actions
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