Roster Turnover
by Al Yellon on Jan 20, 2009 8:15 AM CST
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PrintThis Paul Sullivan article is about Lou putting his stamp on the Cubs over the last two years. This is what struck me most:
Mark Prior, Michael Barrett, Will Ohman, Cesar Izturis, Jacque Jones, Matt Murton, Cliff Floyd, Scott Eyre, Kerry Wood, Mark DeRosa, Jason Marquis, Bob Howry, Daryle Ward and Felix Pie are among the players who’ve been banished from the organization in the last two years. That leaves Alfonso Soriano, Derrek Lee, Aramis Ramirez, Ryan Dempster, Carlos Zambrano, Ted Lilly and Ryan Theriot as the seven Cub survivors who’ve managed to stay on the roster continuously since Opening Day of ’07.
Seven players continuously since '07? That seems a remarkably low number. Soriano and Lilly were new Cubs in '07 and Theriot was a rookie, starting for the first time that year.
That leaves Lee, Ramirez, Dempster and Zambrano the only pre-Lou survivors.
Discuss.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
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It is a lot of turnover
But, reading through the list, I can only come up with 4 that I’d want to still be with the Cubs, and that’s being generous.
Four?
I count two, possibly three.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
I like Pie
so that gives me DeRosa, Wood, and Eyre. And, to clarify, that doesn’t mean that letting them go or trading them was a mistake. My point was that the list of those who are gone doesn’t look like an all-star team.
I like Pie too...
… but I think it was time for him to go.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
I agree on both counts
He IS not a good pinch hitter, which is what he would be on the 2009 cubs since he IS not currently a good MLB everyday hitter either. To grow he need ABs and the Cubs can’t give him those in the foreseeable future. Good for both sides to move on.
3 for me
Wood, DeRo, and Ohman.
…and I wouldn’t exactly say Wood and DeRo were banished. We couldn’t resign them because Lou wanted a LH bat, but if Fukudome was worth half what we paid him, we wouldn’t have needed Bradley and could have kept Wood and DeRo. So, I blame it on Dome.
I know it's true that he wanted one but,
It bothers me when people say “because Lou wanted a LH bat”. Do you disagree? After how bad our RH hitters were demolished by the Dodgers. I would have done anything for some sort of LH presence in the lineup. I believe it should be “because our team’s number one need was a LH bat”.
3?
Wood, DeRosa…and Murton?
I’d keep those three.
by northernsails on Jan 21, 2009 4:05 AM CST up reply actions
I liked Murton, too...
…but he really didn’t have a place on the team, and he doesn’t appear to be developing the power that could salvage his major league career. I think Hendry deserves a medal for being able to include him in a package that netted Rich Harden.
RIP Ron Asheton (1948-2009)
I'd still keep him...
So what if he doesn’t have power? I’ll take him as a 4th outfielder now.
by northernsails on Jan 21, 2009 1:50 PM CST up reply actions
I'll chime in late that Murton isn't good enough defensively to
be a 4th OF. He doesn’t play CF and is pretty poor in RF. Most teams don’t need a dedicated backup LF, especially one without much power.
I like Murton and he has proven he can hit major league pitching. Unfortunately for him, his bat is CF/2B/SS worthy and his defensive skills are DH/LF.
A little bit deceiving ...
Wuertz, Marmol and Cotts all were in the picture in 2006-2007, even though they weren’t on the opening day roster.
Wuertz and Marmol were on the 2006 Cubs.
Cotts was acquired in the 2006-2007 offseason; he didn’t precede Lou.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
I know that
I’m saying that those three guys were in the organization — with major league experience — prior to Opening Day 2007.
what all of this really shows
Is that the offense has changed more under Lou’s leadership than the pitching staff has.
Al, you're buying into this hyperbole? Say it ain't so...
I realize you’re putting this out here because this is ‘news’ and you did end with the obligatory ‘Discuss’, but by saying the remaining seven number is ‘remarkably low’, that tells me you’re at least partially agreeing with Sully here. His use of the word “banished” is laughable.
Look at that list again – TC Cubby has the right idea, and I’d agree that he’s being generous. There’s only two that I’d still want around – Wood and DeRosa – and it’s been well-documented here why they left. Plus, if Hendry still pulls Peavy out of his sleeve using players generated from DeRosa deal, then that puts me down to just Woody.
Most of those guys were either chronic injury cases, spare parts easily replaced, players who had reached the end of the rope, or useful spare parts that netted us something good in return.
Now look at the seven remaining – half of your starting lineup and 3/5s of your rotation. That’s a pretty good core if you ask me. When you have a good team, you don’t blow it up and start over – you keep the core and make strategic changes where needed.
It will be interesting to see where this thread goes – I only wish Da Bard was still around because i have a feeling this is going to be Much Ado About Nothing.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Jan 20, 2009 8:38 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
Point taken.
I’d like to see how this compares to other teams. Anyone got the time to put that list together?
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
don't have the time for that list but here's my gut reaction
I would guess that 7-8 is about the right number for your core for good teams.
Pitching – I would think it to be a big challenge to keep even two starters over several years. Cubs have 3. But I suppose good teams would have a solid bullpen arm over that span – Cubs don’t. So pitching is probably a wash.
Position – I’d guess a CI, a MI, and two OF would be the most common core configuration for good teams. Smart teams probably have a Catcher in the mix too. Cubs have two CI and only one OF so again, it’s a wash.
I’ll be the first to admit I’m probably fitting my thinking here to match the Cubs evidence. It’d be interesting to see how Cubs match up against teams like Boston, NYY, Atlanta, Minnesota, and LAA. Then take a look at maybe Pittsburgh, Kansas City, Seattle, and Baltimore.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Red Sox
Here is the Red Sox. I only had time to do one team, and chose them because, with their success (WS & wild card berth) over the last two years, you would imagine them to be pretty stable.
Here are those from their website’s depth chart that have been with the team since 2007:
Beckett
Lester
Matsuzaka
Wakefield
Buccholz (only 22 innings in 2007)
youklis
Bailey (3 games in 2007, 28 in 2008)
Lowell
Lugo
Pedroia
Drew
Ellsbury (33 games in 2007)
Papelbon
Okajima
Delcarmen
Lopez
Ortiz
That gives 14, even without counting those who had limited exposure in 2007.
Uh, they have a way...
…better farm system than the Cubs. That explains the 14 to 7 differential. – TL
Very true...
…and one other small factor – they have won a few playoff series.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
I rec'd this one (if I can).
Great teams get that way not because core players are replaced, but because middle and fringe players are continuously upgraded. We have had the money and desire to do this in the past two years, with Hendry’s approval, and we’re consequently a better team. – TL
The next step
is to continually improve the Minor League system, so that the Cubs don’t necessarily have to spend great deals of money to obtain core players (or fringe/bench players, whichever they decide).
If the Cubs followed the Red Sox Model (as Kenney has expressed a desire to do so), their opportunity to win would not last just a few fleeting years, but put the team in a position to compete for division titles on a year-in, year-out basis, which is what I would prefer to see.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
by Bill Potter on Jan 20, 2009 10:11 AM CST up reply actions
Well, I think a few of the names...
…were arguably banished. Barrett is the most obvious example, but also Izturis, Ohman and Eyre. (The last two showing Lou’s short fuse when it comes to LOOGYs.)
I’m not sure I’d say Pie or Murton was banished per se, more like they were just young players whose development never caught up with the team’s needs. Prior was an injury case plain and simple. And, like you say, Jones, Floyd and Marquis were guys who came in, served their purpose for a season or two and were thanked for their services and sent on their way.
Woody is a special case, obviously. Definitely not banished by any means. And DeRo was simply a valuable trade piece that was put into play.
By the way, I think DaBard is still with us. Isn’t he now called Worf?
RIP Ron Asheton (1948-2009)
Shhh.... I was setting a trap
trying to see if Worf would take the bait. How I miss his growl…. ;-)
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
I am Worf! Son of Mogh!
This DaBard guy sounds like a Ferengi.
Anyway, I agree with ballhawk. The seven players kept are the top 3 in the rotation and the 1-4 hitters (placing Theriot as the #2 hitter)
And I think Marshall should fit on this list somewhere. He’s a Baker refugee as well, although he might not fit the criteria for the list. If he makes the rotation as the #5, that’s 4/5 of the rotation and Harden is a pretty good fill-in.
And if you look at who was ditched, I think the only one we really could regret down the road is Pie. Maybe Gallagher (another one not technically on the list, but he should be in)
Wood and DeRosa would have been nice, but at some point, economics and baseball reality set in.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
Gallagher wasn't on the list because he wasn't a Cub in 2007.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
I know...
But I think he should be in the discussion of who we gave up vs. now. Gallagher got major-league time.
Or at least, he’s on my list of players we could regret saying goodbye to.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
I think that'd be a tough discussion to have...
…until we see what more (or less) the Cubs get from Rich Harden. A (relatively) full season from Rich in ‘09 with him pitching up to his potential – and another playoff berth – and I think I’d say the trade was worth it.
RIP Ron Asheton (1948-2009)
What does this mean?
stay on the roster continuously since Opening Day of ’07?
It infers that there were some who were on the roster in 07, then dropped off, and came back on again? Who would that be?
Good!
When you don’t win the WS, you make changes. Sometimes even after winning the WS, you have to make [a few] changes.
On the surface, there’s a couple guys who I’d like to see in Cubbie Blue. However, I will refrain from making a statement as to the “good” or “bad” things about them leaving until the roster is set for 2009.
Sweet Lou for Mayor in '11.
DeRosa
He’s the one that raises eyebrows because the Cubs only got three minor leaguers from Cleveland for him. DeRosa can play so many different positions. I simply didn’t understand that trade on any level.
"The big possum walks late." - Harry Caray
I thought Lou liked DeRosa
so its a little misleading to place him in that initial list quoted above
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
DeRo has been in Lou's Doghouse
(the one for which there is no key) since Lou developed a mancrush for Theriot in ST 2007. He was most definitely “banished”; it just happened a year later than Lou would have liked.
"I've never complained about it. I'm thankful to have a jersey." Mark DeRosa, 22 Aug 2007
Good grief
Keep subscribing to those vast Lou Piniella conspiracy theories.
DeRo was traded for one reason;
to dump his salary and use the money to sign Bradley.
Under his current budget, Hendry had to move salary and, unfortunately, Derosa’s was the easiest and most “expendable”.
What it came down to was pretty much that they wanted to sign Bradley more than they wanted to keep DeRosa. It had nothing to do with Lou’s “doghouse”.
by bluekoolaide on Jan 20, 2009 9:49 PM CST up reply actions
100% correct....
…I have always been puzzled by one thing; if DeRosa was in Lou’s dog house, why did Lou write his name on the lineup card so often?
Some people don’t let the facts get in the way of a good conspiracy theory.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
Oh bullshit
First, Theriot’s primary position is SS, DeRo’s is 2nd.
Second, why was DeRo penciled in LF when Fonzie was out for weeks? Why was DeRo penciled in RF when Domer hit the bricks, or when Rami was out at 3rd?
DeRo was flexible. The only thing that actually hurt him in the Cubs’ scenario was he batted RH. Not having the NTC contributed but it was a second order affect.
Sweet Lou for Mayor in '11.
Mmm, I'm having a hard time buying this, too.
DeRo was a mainstay in the Cubs lineup ‘til the bitter end, and he put up fantastic numbers. I don’t see why Lou would harbor any ill feelings for him unless there were personality conflicts behind the scenes. I think, per the Cubs ’09 roster strategy, Mark was shown the door to free up his salary and make way for a lefty bat.
RIP Ron Asheton (1948-2009)
+1
I’m not happy about DeRo being traded, but it wasn’t the doghouse.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on Jan 21, 2009 11:21 AM CST up reply actions
Agreed
He also is 24 and in the last season of his contract. Odds are he was traded due to expecttions being less than we have received the past two seasons from him.
This is the same thing we went thru the past few years with Mark Grudzielanek, then Todd Walker, now DeRosa. Each time Hendry has replaced the player without losing production. I give him the benefit of the doubt here, even tho I would like to see DeRo still in Cubbie Blue personally.
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
I'm guessing you meant,
DeRo will be 34 next month?
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on Jan 22, 2009 4:23 PM CST up reply actions
maybe he really did mean 24, which would make this...
“The Curious Case of Mark DeRosa”
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
you are correct, 34 not 24 lol
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
The loss of Wood makes Zambrano the only remaining member from the 2003 team
IIRC. Kind of an interesting fact.
by dr stabbingworth on Jan 20, 2009 9:09 AM CST reply actions
Ramirez was on the 2003 team
Though he was acquired midseason, which is probably what you meant.
The only continuously remaining
Don’t forget his Bakoness!
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
You're right
I forgot about Ramirez. Still, it would be nice for the Cubs to have a franchise player of the 2000s, a la Sammy of the 90s.
by dr stabbingworth on Jan 20, 2009 10:28 AM CST up reply actions
Soriano!
What? Why are you all looking at me like that?
:P
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on Jan 20, 2009 10:29 AM CST up reply actions
it probably would be Ramirez
Or maybe Zambrano. But considering that the Cubs have been MUCH better this decade than they were in the ‘90s, I’m OK with the fact that we haven’t had a signature player in the mold of Sosa.
Lou
I think he’s a good manager, but the way he is allowed to play favorites and dictate personnel decisions bothers me. The failure to give Pie a decent chance to develop and running Eyre out of town when lefty relievers are so valuable is annoying. Now i like Lou but his job is to win with the players he is given and not to force Hendry’s hand by deciding not to play guys he doesn’t like.
If you read the whole article,
the emphasis is on switching to players with higher obp. The question of whether players are shipped because they are in Lou’s doghouse or because the team is being re-tooled for a different style will come down to perception, I suppose.
It would be interesting to calculate the obp from 2007 to 2009, excluding the 7 continuous players.
won't find me arguing
about the overall roster evolution that has occurred. I think the team has obviously gotten a lot better. I just think that in Pie’s case he got traded for peanuts because Lou didn’t like him. If Pie gets 200 ab’s this year and sucks I still think you could have gotten Garrett Olson for him. If Pie gets 200 ab’s and does well, then I think a lot of this team’s offseason goals would have changed and money could have been spent in other ways rather than handcuffing the team into getting a LH hitter. I don’t understand how the team could give up on a 23 year old because he looks lost getting one at bat a week. I would doubt many hitters could be successful under the circumstances he was given. Whatever, its water under the bridge but I think Lou’s handling of Pie was poor at best.
"handling' of Pie
How was he supposed to handle him though? In 07 we were in a very tight race and couldn’t afford an automatic out in the lineup.
Last year maybe there’s a valid argument for platooning him with Johnson………..but Jim Edmonds was a huge reason we walked away with the Central……….had he not been here we probably still win it and would have seen Pie’s development or lack thereof but that race may have been much closer than it was.
In a way , Pie’s departure can be attributed to Dome’s failure. If Dome played well all year last year the Cubs would probably feel ok about giving Pie one more shot………..but it’s hard to go into a season with 2 huge ?’s in your OF. Plus, hopefully Olsen will be flipped as part of a Peavy deal and everything will work out great.
I'm in total agreement
Lou couldn’t risk “developing” a player in the middle of a pennant race.
Pie will get his chance in Baltimore. He should/may play everyday, albeit in left field.
Go east young Pie and prosper!
I bet he doesn’t hit above .265 in a full-time role.
"Every team will win 60 games, every team will lose 60 games, it's what the team does in the other 42 games that decides the season."
Felix Pie failed Felix Pie
If you want to pin any blame then pin it on Jim Hendry’s minor league organization and the player himself. It is ridiculous to blame Lou Piniella for the failings of Felix Pie. In the same way it was ridiculous to blame Dusty Baker for the failings of Corey Patterson. Managers don’t scout, select and develop players.
both Pie and Patterson
had the tools to be leadoff men or speedsters in the big leagues, but they weren’t really taught how to use those skills. Why didn’t the Cubs teach them more about working counts and hitting the opposite way in the minors? In other words, you’re right, BLou — the minor league organization is to blame (mostly) …
That said, I do think Dusty misused Corey Patterson. In 2004 and 2005 when the Cubs’ lineup was dominated by right-handed hitters, Dusty could have slipped Corey into the No. 6 hole, where he might have performed better and not melted down.
Excellent point about Patterson
Remember that he was hitting sixth in the order in ’03 and having what looked to be a breakout year when he went down with the broken leg around the all-star break.
The next season they had him leading off again and that was that.
As for Pie-plenty of blame to go around. Remember that Lou and Peary both went down to winter ball last year to supervise a new, shorter swing for him. After a slow first couple of games in ST, Pie went back to his old swing and, I believe, sealed his fate with Lou.
by bluekoolaide on Jan 20, 2009 9:56 PM CST up reply actions
Development
I agree. Everyone in the organization falls in love with “toolsy” guys. Pie was hitting third in the minors. Instead of expecting him to be Willie Mays, why not develop him to be a Robbie Alomar? If they guy has the talent to hit with middle-of-the-order power, it’s going to happen anyway. But if it’s the case, like we hear so often, that someone’s “power is expected to develop,” why not hit him first or second in the minors and teach the on-base and contact skills that will help the big league club. He was asked to change his style in the bigs, which is a tall order for anyone.
Considering the Cub's track record...
…I would think a big part of McDonough’s decision to push for Piniella was for him to put his experience to work in regards to talent evaluation. Is he perfect? No he isn’t, but I will still take his overall judgement on who to put on that lineup card and what the team needs more than anyone else in the Cub’s organization.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
I shake my head every time I read "failure to give Pie a decent chance to develop"
If Lou would have played Pie instead of Jim Edmonds and/or Reed Johnson, think of the game-changing scenarios that may not have happened.
With surreal expectations, Cub fans want to WIN every game. They “oh-geez” and moan with every loss.
How many more chances should Lou have given Pie to take a called third strike or swing at a curve ball in the dirt?
Pie had his opportunities. The entire month of April and half the month of May he had his chances to show Lou and everyone that he could hit a big league curve ball. If stats don’t lie, he failed.
You don’t get too many chances to prove yourself when you fail while your team is trying to win a pennant….even in the early months.
Cub fans would have booed Lou if he gave Pie many more chances to “develop.” If every game counts, then Lou did the right thing.
Pie will have plenty of OJT in Baltimore. I wish him well and success.
"Every team will win 60 games, every team will lose 60 games, it's what the team does in the other 42 games that decides the season."
This is all moot, but...
… Pie really DIDN’T get those chances. The most games in a row he started was four — the first four games of the season.
After April 4 he started ten games until he was sent down on May 14, after the season’s 40th game.
Thus, he started 10 of 36 games. You call that “giving him a chance”? I say it’s Lou giving up on him after four games.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
I don't disagree
Lou didn’t give him enough of a chance.
But Lou also did the right thing. He is paid to win now. He, and we, didn’t have time to watch Pie flop around.
The real fault is in bringing him up before he was ready and burning through his options too quickly.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
On the day Pie was sent down...
… the Cubs were 24-16, in first place a game ahead. So they were winning in spite of him making few contributions.
Granted, the 2008 regular season worked out well afterwards. But Lou never really gave him a REAL shot at winning a starting job. I believe a 23-year-old OF who had the minor league numbers Pie had WAS ready and should have been given two full months as (at the very least) a platoon starter in CF. That would likely have resulted in him starting 30 of the first 40 games, not 14 of them. Maybe then we’d really have known if he could have handled it or not. Players don’t work out problems sitting on the bench.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
Meaningless stat, Cubs were 9-9 in games Pie started in 2008
Pie also started 36 games in 2007. Lou “stuck” with him even though he was batting in the low .200s.
Pie ended the 2007 season at .215.
Maybe Lou saw the same thing happening at the start of 2008 and said “enough is enough.”
Unlike Dustin Pedroia, who started his rookie season (2007) hot then dipped below .200 (as low as.158) the last week of April then picked it up again to finish above .300, Pie never got out of the gate fast, never got hot in the backstretch, and never closed the gap to the finish line.
I use Pedroia as an example because the Red Sox didn’t give up on him, giving him a chance and sticking with him, even during his down times. He stunk it up in 2006, hanging well below .200 after his call-up in August.
"Every team will win 60 games, every team will lose 60 games, it's what the team does in the other 42 games that decides the season."
um
I think you’re making Al’s argument for him. Boston stuck with Pedroia. Lou could have stuck with Pie.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on Jan 20, 2009 3:21 PM CST up reply actions
No argument here, I was all for Pie getting chances
Pie got his first opportunity in 2007, he failed.
Pedroia got his first opportunity in 2006….failed.
Pie got a second shot in 2008. Didn’t get off to a good start. Lou thinking, “same crap, another year?”
Pedroia’s second shot with Boston started out great—albeit 3 games—then slipped. Pedroia’s OBP remained above .300. Pie’s was .barely above .200 during his “down slide.”
No telling what the Red Sox would have done if he started slow like Pie.
I also think Pedroia can hit a curve ball. Pie can’t.
I think the Cubs needed to cut ties with Pie and move forward.
Let the Orioles develop him into a young superstar. I’ll be the first to say, “good job!” and congrats to Pie.
"Every team will win 60 games, every team will lose 60 games, it's what the team does in the other 42 games that decides the season."
In 2007, Pie WAS overmatched.
He was recalled only because Soriano was hurt. If not for that he’d likely have spent 2007 at Iowa and had a September callup.
When you say he “didn’t get off to a good start” — geez, Lou started him for FOUR games in a row and then anchored him to the bench. That’s not a fair trial.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
Do you think...
…prospects are broken out of a mold? Each one is unique in their own way. Just because Pedroia started slow, it doesn’t mean everyone else is going to follow the same process.
With prospects, you gauge their progress by how they look as opposed to their batting average. I’d bet, Pedroia has a better base to work with and that is why they let him go.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
My point is should Lou have let him start more often
at the expense of possible team losses?
He hovered at .200 for a good portion of the beginning of the season, dipping as low as .143.
Team=8 + pitcher. In my opinion, Pie was nothing more than a body standing at the plate.
I was a Pie fan, but realized he wasn’t ready for the big show. The curve ball is the death of many a young phenom.
Fukudome may suffer the same fate. No hit curve ball, no play.
"Every team will win 60 games, every team will lose 60 games, it's what the team does in the other 42 games that decides the season."
the guy is 23
We aren’t talking about a bum here. He hit at every level asked, and did it again when they sent him down. You think every big leaguer comes up and mashes in their first cup of coffee in the bigs? Yes, the Cubs were a contender and sacrificing wins at the cost of developing players was not in the cards. However, for Lou to basically give up on him because he got off to a rough start was stupid for the development of the franchise. If every player was given up on after 80ab’s bad at 23 there wouldn’t be many players in the league right now. Pie could have been inserted into the lineup without harming the offense against RHP more often. Other players stepped up and took advantage of his lack of PT and it ended up working out for the team. But at what cost? The goal is to continuously contend, and Pie may have been a player that would help the Cubs next year and the year after. We won’t know now because Lou didn’t like him. And since Lou didn’t play him we are still left with an unknown entity without any options. Real smart Lou. Like I said before, if Pie gets 200 ab’s and doesn’t produce, then trade him for Olson. But now we are trading away one of the few cheap options this team has at a premium position. If the Cubs don’t want to be constantly stuck at the payroll limits, these are the type of players this team has to develop. I realize the window for winning it all is slim, but you can’t just sacrifice the next 4-5 years so that Fukudome and Daryle Ward can have 50 more ab’s a piece.
You are aware that Pie had his first "cup of coffee" in 2007
He got 177 AB, hitting .215.
Not the trade-bar of 200 AB you proposed, but in two years, 260 AB, he hit a whopping .223.
As I previously stated, I was a Pie fan, too, for many years. I watched him in Mesa ST for several years, telling my daughter this guy has the “tools” to be a star.
"Every team will win 60 games, every team will lose 60 games, it's what the team does in the other 42 games that decides the season."
Right
but the most games Felix Pie ever started in a row for the Cubs was 9. (link – nw)
And during that 9-game stretch, he hit .316/.372/.846, going 12-for-38 with 6 K and 4 BB.
So while that may have been a blip on the screen, perhaps Pie’s career would have been different had he received consistent playing time and a chance to find his groove.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
Let me add to your thought process
He started the 9 games you mentioned, did not start the 10th but played 5 innings to finish a 13-inning game, then started the next 10, collecting only 5 hits in 38 AB (.132 / .214 /.237 ).
Combining the 20 game stretch, he hit .228 / .295 / .354
He started 19 out of those 20 games.
"Every team will win 60 games, every team will lose 60 games, it's what the team does in the other 42 games that decides the season."
Thanks.
I should have looked into it deeper than I did.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
2007 he's 22
so in 08 he slumps out of the gate and you dump him? I will not deny that he looked terrible at the plate at times. But it is not good practice to trade your prospects at their lowest value when they never got a legitimate chance. If he’s not going to get a shot then trade him before he loses all of his value. Garrett Olson best case scenario is Neal Cotts. Felix Pie best case scenario? Starting CF for the next 5 years. What would you rather have? We can argue the merits of Pie’s actual ability but the simple fact of the matter is that Lou Piniella banished him to the bench because he didn’t like him and forced Jim Hendry to sell off the team’s top prospect for very little. Now is that the way to build a winning ballclub? You either tell Hendry that you won’t play him and get a decent return on your investment or you banish him to the bench and you end up getting Olson. I just think Lou screwed this one up when it is his job to win while keeping in mind the future of the organization.
by uwbadger on Jan 20, 2009 3:39 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
rec'd
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on Jan 20, 2009 3:47 PM CST up reply actions
While I agree with the above post...
… I think Olson is far better than Cotts.
Now, if Olson (and others) can bring us Peavy, if that ever happens, trading Pie for him will be worth it.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
Not that the fans run the team, but how long do you think
the Cubs’ fans would put up with Pie not producing?
Maybe the PA announcer could say, “Don’t boo. We’re trying to develop our future center fielder.”
Cub fans are demanding win now.
I’m a realist. The Cubs are going to lose some games. Don’t tell that to some folks at the ballpark, in sports bars, in the game threads. Every game is do-or-die to them. Do you think they will forgive a slumping player because the Cubs are developing him for the future?
I also know the Cubs need to develop some players from within their own organization. Pie should have / could have been one of those players. But if you want to win today, you have to get players that produce today.
It’s a bad philosophy, but many Cubs’ fans don’t want to think about the future. (OK, many don’t want to give up Vitters, but let’s see what happens if he’s not producing in 2011-12.)
I wish Pie would have developed. I wish Lou would have played him more. But the cost may have been a few WINS. Or not. Who knows?
"Every team will win 60 games, every team will lose 60 games, it's what the team does in the other 42 games that decides the season."
I know the Cubs were, and are still, in "win now" mode.
But given Pie’s performance in AAA in 2007, and in ST in 2008, he deserved at least 2 months’ worth of trial. Lou could have at least given him more than four consecutive games’ playing time before benching him.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
Wrong Question
Smart Cubs fans want to win now and in the future and Pie would have been a big part in that future. Trading Pie hurt the latter while doing nothing to improve the former.
I reject your reality and substitute my own.
by WayneCampbell08 on Jan 22, 2009 6:13 PM CST up reply actions
Yes
Look at all the chances the redsox let Jacoby Ellsbury develop in the middle of winning World Series!! Also the Yankees gave Melky Cabrera lots of chances in many pennant races.
So in reality, Felix Pie didn’t have enough chances although I am not sure if it would of made a difference.
Well...
If the Cub hierarchy maintained thought whatsoever that Felix Pie could develop into a viable major league outfielder via willingness to be patient then I believe they would have gone that route. After all it is the Cubs who have egg on their faces for the repeated failures of “can’t miss” positional prospects. And it is these same Cubs who make heavy investment over several years in top prospects.
You don’t throw a top prospect out the window until you have become absolutely convinced he isn’t going to work out. Cubs reached that point with Felix Pie. The same way they reached that point on Corey Patterson. Some around here think Hendry, Lou and company throw a party when they discard a former top prospect. Quite the opposite as it is very painful when somebody like a Pie doesn’t work out.
I'm sure
you’re all choked up.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on Jan 20, 2009 4:07 PM CST up reply actions
I'm with ya....
…it amazes me how much energy people spend on stuff like this. The organization has failed at producing position players for almost 20 years, hasn’t won a WS in 100 and people are focused on whether Pie got a fair shake or not.
Bottom line; he didn’t earn more AB’s and looked terrible in the process. Time to move on.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
Thats not the point
Pie may be good or may not be, but the fact that the top prospect in the system is still an unknown entity to the team. He is still too young and he doesn’t have enough MLB ab’s to declare him anything other than a young player. If he isn’t going to get PT, then let him stay at Iowa and don’t waste his options. But Lou just sat him on the bench after 4 games and gave up on him. You think Hendry was confident that Pie wasn’t good enough? The fact is that Pie gets traded for nothing at age 23. That’s what bothers me. Winning teams have a combination of developed players and free agents/traded players. This team doesn’t have much homegrown talent. Winning it all will be bucking the trend of recently successful teams.
If Pie is 25,26 and this happens, I’m not too upset. But the team giving up on a 23 year old when giving him even 100 more at bats would cost you maybe at most a single win. And that is if he continued to play crappy. There is a balance between giving him development time without hurting the team. The Red Sox with Ellsbury, Masterson, Pedroia are just one example of a successful team giving time to young players. Lou just decided to screw over one of the Cubs’ most valuable assets and turned him into a 4/5 upside LHP. Awesome.
You fail to grasp that the organization gave up on Pie
Cubs are undoubtedly very disappointed that Felix Pie didn’t work out. After all it is the Cubs who invested major dollars and time on Pie working out. Just like they do all major prospects.
So no, the Cubs did not throw Pie out with the bath water. The Cubs got rid of Pie because clearly it is the organizational opinion at this point that he isn’t going to fulfill the major league promise they once envisioned for him. Hendry, Piniella, Fleita and company didn’t celebrate when they dumped Pie on Baltimore. Instead they collectively shed a tear.
Unknown??????
He had over 200 AB’s in the bigs and was in the system for 5+ years. You may call that unknown, but I don’t.
The reason he couldn’t hit in the bigs was crystal clear and he showed NO SIGNS of making adjustments.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
There were actually some signs on his recall in September.
The point is, that most rookies of his promise and minor league accomplishments get at least half a season as a regular (or at least a platoon regular, which is what he would have been) to try to make such adjustments.
Pie got no such chance.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
Let's see what happens with him...
…over the next few years.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
Indeed.
I’m not saying he’ll become a star — I recognize there are some holes in his game.
But he never got a real chance from Lou.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
Wrong player...
…at the wrong time. Lou wasn’t brought in here to develop projects, and Pie is definately a project.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
I would argue that the Cubs could have afforded two months of that project.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
Not much homegrown talent?
Hmmm…
Soto
Marmol
Samardzija
Wuertz
Theriot
Fontenot
Hoffpauir
Zambrano
Marshall
That’s plenty, IMHO
by northernsails on Jan 22, 2009 4:53 AM CST up reply actions
The changes were well needed
We were a bad team when lou took over and he’s done a lot of work to change the framework of this team into what will hopefully be a perennial winner.
I think you all are missing the whole situation
Interchangeable parts are just that: I concur with the axiom that 80% of the team’s performance comes from roughly 20% of your players but the difference of ultimately winning or losing comes from the 20% remaining team performance by 80% of the roster.
Mark Prior, hurt….hurt again….hurt again WTF?
Michael Barrett poor defender in a defensive position, screwed up fighting with his pitcher had to go…
Will Ohman, not really productive, broke loyalty issue, had to go
Cesar Izturis, utility player, who cares
Jacque Jones, not ready for prime time, mistake
Matt Murton, not ready for MLB
Cliff Floyd DH playing in the NL
Scott Eyre not effective in Piniella’s role
Bob Howry, became ineffective
Daryle Ward got hurt and ineffective in his role
Felix Pie not ready for MLB
Jason Marquis effective but too expensive in his role
Kerry Wood, effective, risky due to injury and business decision
Mark DeRosa, effective but business/roster role decision
so the spare parts are really the consequence of earlier decisions while the core of the team remains:
Ramirez, DLee, Soriano, Zambrano, Lilly, Dempster, let us see the meat of the batting order and three starters plus Theriot who is really a role player.
Piniella: "This is a tougher job than I thought it would be, I'm going to be honest with you."
How are we all missing the whole situation?
You’ve just written what several of us already wrote above.
RIP Ron Asheton (1948-2009)
yeah, I don't get it either
especially when I used 234 words in my original comment on this topic and Ivy Walls only used 211.
I rule!!!! ;-)
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Sorry...
but Ward was not “ineffective in his role” as you suggest. Go check his numbers from 2007, not to mention the game he won in Florida last year for us.
Floyd was also effective for us, and while old and up in years, don’t discount the role he played in ’07.
I love you’re basically throwing players who contributed under the bus now that they’re no longer a part of the team.
"Why do you always point to the sky when Zambrano starts?" My girlfriend.
"You just wouldn't get it...it's a Cubs thing..." Me.
by cubs2k8isnxtyear on Jan 20, 2009 2:37 PM CST up reply actions
so that we don't have to endure
that which is Micah Hoffpauir?
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on Jan 20, 2009 4:36 PM CST up reply actions
Well...
… you know I’m not a Hoffpauir fan. But I think Ward is kinda been there, done that.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
I tend to agree
but a washed up Ward still may be better at drawing walks than Hoffpauir.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on Jan 20, 2009 4:54 PM CST up reply actions
Give up the Hoffpauir hate already,
it’s getting ridiculous at this point. Did the guy do something personal to you or something?
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
So let's see.
The statement “I’m not a Hoffpauir fan” translates into “Hoffpauir hate” and that he “did something personal” to me.
How that follows, I have no idea.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
You jump at every chance to bash Hoffpauir.
So that’s why one would think you are hating on him. You have such a negative tone when it comes to him, I get the feeling you hope he fails so you will be proven right.
And for the record, I asked if he did something personal to you. It wasn’t a statement.
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
I don't "bash" him.
I point out, correctly, that his pinch-hitting record has been poor. And since that’d be his role on the 2009 team, I think it’s right to question whether he can handle it or not.
If he succeeds, well then I’m wrong and good for him.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
Oh c'mon
i’m not a stat-guru (like others on this site), but as I see it, he has a grand total of 73 major league at bats. Talk about a small sample size.
He hasn’t had sufficient major league experience for you to put him down as much as you do. Give him a chance before he turns into the 2009 version of Jim Edmonds. D.O.N.E.
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
Let's try this again.
All I’ve said is that he doesn’t appear to be capable of handling the pinch-hitting role. He had 7 strikeouts in 14 PH at-bats in 2008, and no walks.
That ain’t good. If you have any evidence that he’s better than this, let’s hear it.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
"Been there done that?"
What does that even mean?
You’re saying we should make roster changes from effective players to less effective players because…. well, just because?
Because Micah Hoffpauir isn't going to make this roster anyway
The guy we really need is Rich Aurilia. Why? Because Aurilia can play all four infield spots and versatility has to be the second best key for this roster spot in question. The first? The demonstrated ability to pinch hit. That’s something Daryl Ward has proven he can do.
Yeah...
and Soriano can play all 4 infield positions. Doesn’t mean he could do it well. Aurilia, at this stage in his career, does not offer versatility. If we want to spend 1 Mil on a backup 1B, then whatever. But he cannot provide quality defense at all 4 positions.
Free Ronny Cedeno
I'm not so sure about this.
Based on what Bruce Miles and others have said, Hoffpauir has a good shot at a roster spot if he puts together a few of his patented Triple-A booming home runs in spring training. The Cubs don’t seem to be falling over themselves to pick up Aurilia, and they may want to hold onto that money for other purposes.
RIP Ron Asheton (1948-2009)
They may be waiting for his price to drop also
It could back fire though. While the higher tiered guys are out of more and more teams’ budgets they may have Aurilia as a fall back. But I do have to say his versatility is much more than that of Hoff’s.
Sweet Lou for Mayor in '11.
by blackhawk24 on Jan 21, 2009 12:19 PM CST up reply actions
Here's Hendy's quote:
“Absolutely," he said. "If he starts hitting off the bench like he does when he plays, he’s got a lot better chance of hanging around. If he can’t pinch hit and do that well, then obviously, it’s a different game.”
So, based on that, I’d look for Hoffpauir to be getting a lot of looks in pinch hitter situations, especially later in spring training, to see if he can, you know, pinch hit effectively.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
Interesting post
But I tend to look at it as a good thing. Prior to two seasons ago, we sucked. Since bringing on Lou, we’ve been to back to back playoffs. Moreover we’ve drastically improved our record. So this idea of turnover isn’t a bad one if you ask me.
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
you can attribute that to a lot of spending too
which Dusty didnt have the luxury of
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
That's fine
But once again, I’ll reiterate. Turnover isn’t a bad thing.
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
Dusty Baker got way, way too much blame in Chicago
I’m not claiming he is great manager, but I think the Cubbie history books will one day be much more charitable in description of the Dusty Baker era in Chicago. Fact is Jim Hendry gave him too much horsecrap to work with. Plus Dusty had to operate under the organizational strategy that Mark Prior and Kerry Wood would be the horses to ride to World Series glory.
I doubt the history books will be kind to Dusty...
And to be completely honest, they shouldn’t be.
I agree with you that a large part of the problem was that the Cubs roster was not up to par in his final two years. HOWEVER, Baker did himself no favors with his complete disregard for the concept of OBP. Batting Patterson and Perez #1-2 in the lineup was a colossal failure of understanding.
Baker isn’t the entire reason the Cubs failed in 2005 and 2006, but he certainly wasn’t without blame.
I think he should get some slack
He is, afterall, the last Cubs manager to win a post season series, doing so in his first year no less, and they were in contention down the stretch in ’04 (thank you Victor Diaz), and the core of the team (Wood/Prior) suffered collosal flameouts….what could he do?
The question would be, who was responsible for the makeup of the roster-Hendry or Baker?
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
Like I said...
He’s not completely to blame, but he’s not blameless either. I blame the roster on Hendry, and the dumb lineup decisions on Baker.
Failure of 2005 and 2006 doesn't simply boil down to lack of OBP
Rather the failure of those two seasons was misguided organizational strategy that had as its premise that Kerry Wood and Mark Prior would be the horses to get the job done. That and a bizarre daliance into the concept of “small ball” via the acquisition of Juan Pierre. I pin that one squarely on Jim Hendry. While Dusty might have wanted to copy what Ozzie Guillen had going on the Southside with Scott Podsednik that led the Sox to World Series victory, the fact is the buck stops with the GM. Hendry was guilty of not doing his homework on Pierre and investing way too much in the latest “flavor of the month” concept in how to win ballgames.
As I said...
He’s not completely to blame. But he’s not blameless either. Hendry is also very much to blame.
PIE @ THE DISH......
From footage of 2008 when PIE was at the plate LOU had a Scowl on his face ….It looks like Lou was even seeing PIE …..Go figure
Doesn't Lou pretty much always have a scowl on his face?
(During games, at least.)
RIP Ron Asheton (1948-2009)
This doesn't seem all that unusual
for a team that hired a new manager after they came off of a 96 loss season in 2006.
Hey, it's a new century!
Don't know if this has been discussed yet
but that list doesn’t mention Rich Hill. He was a starter that the Cubs had pinned hopes on for taking a rotation spot for years to come. Obviously, Hill didn’t get traded or released but he just fell apart at the seams. His spot in the rotation had to be filled by the Cubs, we basically just lost him.
"Prince Fielder Dies Of Inside-The-Park Homerun" - The Onion
Would Lou bench bench Willie Mays?
I think he started out 0 for 30. Anyway, I think Pie was just here at the wrong time. Lou doesn’t have the patience for guys that don’t perform. Pie could be another Lou Brock and haunt us for years. Although I doubt it. And he will get his chance in Baltimore, where there is no pressure to win now. But the fans in Wrigley are alot like Lou. And I’m afraid Pie would have been booed like Patterson if he didn’t start performing. If I was Lou I would have batted him eighth, told him I want great defense and would have left him alone. But I’m not Lou.
I get your point, but Mays was 20 when he got his first start
and went 0 for 12 to start his career.
From the Baseball Library:
Manager Leo Durocher kept his spirits up by declaring that despite his poor start, Mays was and would remain the Giants’ full-time centerfielder that season.
His first hit, on his 13th AB, was a HR off of Warren Spahn.
He never looked back. He ended up the ROY.
By age 23, Mays was the NL’s MVP.
"Every team will win 60 games, every team will lose 60 games, it's what the team does in the other 42 games that decides the season."
Ryne Sandberg
Sorry kid, 0-34 go back to the minors.
I reject your reality and substitute my own.
by WayneCampbell08 on Jan 22, 2009 6:16 PM CST up reply actions
or "We're not expected to win anyway, so we'll stick with you"
The Cubs finished 73-89, 5th in NL Eastern Division in 1982. They were a lowly 38-65 the strike-shortened season the year before and 64-98 the year prior to that.
Perhaps if Pie was 22 in 2002 instead of 2007, he would have gotten 136 starts like Corey Patterson (who was given his opportunities, also at 22). The Cubs were 56-80 in games Patterson started. No pressure to win?
I don’t disagree that Lou should have given Pie several weeks of consecutive “show us what you got, kid, it’s yours to lose” starts in 2008 instead of 4.
Pie did start a stretch of 19 out of 20 games in 2007. The Cubs were under .500, anywhere from 5 to 8.5 games behind in the standings. I don’t know if that has any correlation.
And, by the way, Pie slumped miserably the last 10 games of that stint.
"Every team will win 60 games, every team will lose 60 games, it's what the team does in the other 42 games that decides the season."
To expand on the Willie Mays point above...
… the Giants won the pennant in his rookie year.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
"I can't do it, Mr. Leo. You better bench me." --Willie Mays
Leo stuck with Mays.
“I can’t do it, Mr. Lou. You better bench me.” —Felix Pie
Done.
"Every team will win 60 games, every team will lose 60 games, it's what the team does in the other 42 games that decides the season."
Somehow, I don't think Felix said that.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
He didn't but Mays did.
"Every team will win 60 games, every team will lose 60 games, it's what the team does in the other 42 games that decides the season."
Oh, I know that.
Too bad Lou didn’t have the confidence in a kid with talent that Leo did.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
and when did Sandberg go 0 for 34?
I see 1 for 30 in 34 PA
I get your point, though.
"Every team will win 60 games, every team will lose 60 games, it's what the team does in the other 42 games that decides the season."
Roster
What was the last player that the Cubs dumped that turned out be be awesome? Maddux?
http://www.mysportsscoop.com
There are lots of pitchers
that came out of the Cubs farm system and went on to other teams to be good players. Jamie Moyer, Dontrelle Willis, Ricky Nolasco, Todd Wellemeyer come to mind.
It’s position players from the farm system that have been almost complete duds.
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on Jan 21, 2009 1:05 PM CST up reply actions
good players?
Calling Nolasco, Willis, and Wellemeyer “good” based on their performances is arguable. Willis had exactly 1 good season but the game completely caught up to him after that. Wellemeyer is more ‘serviceable’ than ‘good.’ And I’m not convinced Nolasco will be all that great.
Moyer’s a good mention, but he was more of a junkball pitcher.
by northernsails on Jan 22, 2009 5:02 AM CST up reply actions
I think your standards are a tad bit higher than mine.
Dontrelle Willis was the rookie of the year in 2003 and then won 22 games a couple of years later (2005, I think?) Nolasco won 11 games as a rookie and 15 or 16 last year (his 3rd MLB season). Wellemyer was an integral part of the Cardinals rotation last year and won in double digits. Jamie Moyer has won more than 200 games.
When I say these are “good” players, I’m defining that as solid major league players, average or better. I would also like to note that 2 of the players, Wellemyer and Moyer were released at least once after being traded by the Cubs before finding success. Sometimes players just take a little longer to harness their talent.
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on Jan 22, 2009 4:32 PM CST up reply actions
What happens if the Cardinals pick up Orlando Hudson and Jon Garland on the cheap???
I’m starting to get worried about the Cardinals. I’ll never underestimate a Tony LaRussa team and one that includes Albert Pujols. There have been rumors that Garland could wind up with the Cardinals, who could turn out to be Dave Duncan’s latest miracle case. And what if they do get Hudson? A middle infield of Khalil Greene and Hudson would be excellent defensively. In fact, the Cardinals would be excellent defensively all over the place.
Don't worry
They still have no pitching.
Garland was a bust in the AL west with some huge ballparks and some bad offense.
He will get eaten up against teams like cubs, astros and brewers.
No NL central team can match the cubs starting pitching 1-5
You're worried that Jon Garland *might* come to the division?
This actually concerns you? The possibility of a league average or slightly below pitcher joining a solidly average pitching staff is your big worry?
They’re the second best team in the division behind us but the drop-off is pretty sharp.
Four
Wood, DeRo, Ohman and Marquis.
Marq was a solid #5 that we may miss morethan most want to believe. It was not his fault hendry threw him too much $$$$ for a #5 pitcher.
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
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