Absolutely NOT The Last Post On Jake Peavy
by Al Yellon on Jan 29, 2009 2:19 PM CST
in Chicago Cubs News
Email
PrintAnd this post isn't exactly about Peavy, though the Peavy situation is mentioned in Jayson Stark's latest Rumblings & Grumblings.
What's key in the portion of that column that mentions Peavy is this, about the upcoming ownership transfer:
But does that mean this deal can get revived sometime soon? Not necessarily, because there are still major ownership issues. And no matter how much the folks at MLB might want to get the Cubs' sale approved by Opening Day, the timetable isn't solely in its hands.
"I don't think we're anywhere near as close to resolving the ownership situation as it looks," said one baseball man with knowledge of those machinations. "You have to remember [the seller, the Tribune Company] is in bankruptcy court. So if somebody comes along and says, 'We offered more money,' the court can say, 'You have to take the most money.' So there's no way of saying right now whether this gets resolved in two to three months or six to eight months."
Jake Peavy is a fine pitcher and would look great in blue pinstripes. That much is absolutely true, despite some worries I have about his numbers outside of Petco Park and the injury issues he had last year. But the idea that he'll become a Cub anytime soon is ... well, something we'll have to wait for. Maybe it'll happen at the trade deadline. Maybe it won't happen at all.
We await Jim Hendry's next move... because based on the moves made so far, he cannot be finished remaking this team.
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First!
To say I don’t care about Peavy anymore.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jan 29, 2009 2:23 PM CST reply actions
And I
SECOND that!
"What a great call! Your doing a fantastic job, but people expect me to come out here and be upset. So I'm gonna kick some dirt, you understand?" - Lou Pinella
And I
Second the Seconding of the First to say that
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
I'm glad you guys are so FOURTHcoming in your agreement with me.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jan 29, 2009 2:32 PM CST up reply actions
I knew you were going to say that...I have a sixth-sense about these things.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jan 29, 2009 2:40 PM CST up reply actions
Id be on seventh-heaven if we could stop this Peavy talk.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jan 29, 2009 2:43 PM CST up reply actions
And I hope Hendry hasn't put us behind the eight-ball come the trade deadline.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jan 29, 2009 2:44 PM CST up reply actions
But are we going to stop?
Nein!
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jan 29, 2009 2:45 PM CST up reply actions
I have no inTENtion of posting a fart.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jan 29, 2009 2:48 PM CST up reply actions
I 12 reassure you I'm not going to do it.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jan 29, 2009 3:05 PM CST up reply actions
Whats is opinon of the govenment bailing out all these Banks?
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jan 29, 2009 3:14 PM CST up reply actions
Ask Americans 200 years from now...
…when they’re finally paying it off.
"I never drink water because of the disgusting things fish do in it" -W.C. Fields
Whoa! You skipped like 186 numbers man!
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jan 29, 2009 6:39 PM CST up reply actions
ROFL
That whole thread just made me laugh harder than I have all day…Thanks, guys. That was pure gold…
"If I ever saw myself saying I'm excited going to Cleveland, I'd punch myself in the face, because I'm lying." - Ichiro
by The Guy Who Accidentally Saved the World on Jan 29, 2009 7:04 PM CST up reply actions
I think it is contingent
on a new owner and it doesn’t look as though we’ll get Peavy. Hendry may have cut his losses and gone for Heilman and we’re set. Once we get a catcher signed I think this is it. The trade deadline in July is another matter though.
This is only the beginning....Lou Pinella end of '07 season and Chicago Transit Authority (the band when they were really good).
Heilman
Does Heilman have any option years, or is his contract up after 2009?
by Ghost of Fred Merkle on Jan 29, 2009 2:33 PM CST reply actions
He's under the Cubs control through the 2010 season
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
Et tu, Al?
These Peavy posts are breaking out like acne on a 16-year-old!
We are a fever ... we are a fever ... we ain't born typical.
That is
the popular opinion, for which i must agree with.
"You can't take life to seriously, you don't get out of it alive"
Acne
is easier to cure
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
That's a myth...
Like Jake Peavy.
Someday we'll go all the way...
by CubsBullsBears on Jan 29, 2009 3:33 PM CST up reply actions
Jake Peavy
is a mythical pimple?
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
Hey hey hey
I’m 17 so get it right!
Erm, well if we are going to call Milton Bradley nicknames, mine is Fischer Price: yes, you heard it here first..
Oh..
Now I just made this awkward..
Erm, well if we are going to call Milton Bradley nicknames, mine is Fischer Price: yes, you heard it here first..
That's pretty much what 17 is.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jan 29, 2009 4:21 PM CST up reply actions
rofl! oh so true.
"Truth does not do as much good in the world as the semblance of truth does evil," - Duc de La Rochefoucauld, Maxims, 64.
Why Don't the Cubs
Ask Congress for a “Peavy” Bail Out and then pick up the $22M? They can use any change left over to get Roberts as well
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
Just make it $125M for both players
That should cover Peavy’s 2013 option and a nice 4yr/$40M contract for Roberts. I mean come on our Gov’t is willing to spend money pork for things such as $200M to re-sod the Wash mall area (that must be some nice grass) and $400M on climate research, a blinding $1B for the census, $650M for more digital TV converter box coupons (16M more homes that don’t have cable or satellite?) and $1.1B for Amtrak, a staggering $5B for ACORN and even $200M for contraception.
Why not a measly $125M for the CUBS to spend on the TWO PLAYERS that will help them WIN THE WORLD SERIES for the first time in over a hundred years? I mean it’s only taxpayer money, right? What’s a measly, paultry $125M out of the $1.25T it’s gonna cost to finance this? 0.01%….. that’s it. It’s like most of us just going to Starbucks a few times a month instead of Dunkin Donuts; simple. Just another 0.01% to make several MILLION CUBS FANS HAPPY
Sweet Lou for Mayor in '11.
and the Cubs winning a World Series
is a great boost for the exonomy, with all the shirts, banners, hats, hell just about anything you can think of putting an “CUBS 2009 WS CHAMPS” on to sell would be bought in mass quanitite
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
Can we start a Poll now for who next years Peavy will be?
and look back on it next winter; This is two straight years of incessant rumors and a general feeling of inevitability regarding the arrival of a big named player.
My early guess will be Ryan Howard as he’ll be nearer to free agency and seemingly unlikely to stay with Philly
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
Peavy might actually want to play in Chicago, though.
Unlike the Crime Dog.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
It's not that I hope this isn't it
Hendry better not be done!!
Erm, well if we are going to call Milton Bradley nicknames, mine is Fischer Price: yes, you heard it here first..
We await Jim Hendry’s next move… because based on the moves made so far, he cannot be finished remaking this team.
…
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
You did nothing but restate Al's final statement. Were you really THAT impressed?
"If it's obvious, it's obviously wrong." - a well known stock market guru
Good, I'm glad to see a productive Peavy post.
I wasn’t trying to offend you yesterday, Al, I was just grumpy about all the worthless Peavy posts. Sorry about the confusion.
Dan
Evey Hammond: Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici. V: By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.
No, I understand.
I thought this was newsworthy as it was something I had not seen before (the comment about ownership, which was really the point of the post, not specifically Peavy).
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
Cubs still have the best pitching in the National League, at least on paper
Not getting Jake Peavy is fine. There are a couple good options to compete for the 5th spot in the rotation, and the depth to absorb unforseen injury. The bullpen also has options all over the place, with quality reinforcements on the way in Samardzija (who will be caught up in a numbers game and be sent to Triple A), Hart, Cashner, Ascanio, Stevens, Atkins.
Lets get Paul Bako and another infielder, then go to war.
On paper? That's on odd point of view for a guy who shuns us when we use statistically-slanted arguments.
You don’t go to war on paper.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jan 29, 2009 4:37 PM CST up reply actions
OK, I'll bite...
What don’t you like about the Cub pitching staff? Especially in contrast to the rest of the very watered down NL Central?
Ouch! Don't leave a mark!
Really though, I totally get where you’re coming from. However, I’m leery of two things.
1) Harden’s health
2) Dempster’s unlikely abiltiy repeat his performanceof 2008.
Marshall is an OK 5th man, but everyone else behind him has little to no ML experience, and if the rotation has to perform for any extended period of time with 2 of our front 4 slumping or hurt…we’re in trouble.
The only things “on paper” are what they’re DONE. The season will be determined by what they DO. That’s all I’m saying.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jan 29, 2009 4:56 PM CST up reply actions
what team in the majors would not suffer
when two of their top four starters go down (unless their starters are dog meat to begin with)?
"If it's obvious, it's obviously wrong." - a well known stock market guru
My point is...
the probability of our rotation having to do this is above average. Z takes a few weeks off every year to scare the crap out of us, Harden has started 30 games exactly once in his career, and the odds of Dempster being as effective as he was last year are slim.
I’m not saying this team/pitch staff is doomed. I still think we’ll win the division. I’m just surprised that BLou’s confidence is based “on paper”.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jan 29, 2009 5:29 PM CST up reply actions
Yep, can't be done.
I’m wondering where all these pitchers go…
Z, Harden, Dempster, Lilly, Marshall, Heilman, Gaudin, Wuertz, Vizcaino, Cotts, Gregg, Marmol, Stevens, Hart , Rich Hill and Guzman
Aren’t Wuertz, Hill & Guzman all out of options?? I’m guessing Hill & Wuertz are dealt and Stevens and Hart are sent to the minors. Maybe they can move Vizcaino, but will be difficult..
SORIANO! YESSSSSSSS! JIMBO!!!
I think Hendry's done adding
There will be some trading off of guys like Wuertz and Hill, IMHO, but that could wait until players report. Well, maybe it would help Rich not to have to start in one training camp then go to another.
Anyway, I don’t think we have room for another backup SS on the major-league squad. I wouldn’t have signed Miles, but that’s done and done. And I’d be fine with Koyie Hill as the backup at catcher: Paul Bako is just that bad.
In other words, if all that’s left to do is sign Cintron and Bako, I’d say we’re basically done here. C’mon guys, report to Mesa already!
Fontenot (fon-te-no): Cajun for "scrappy"
They will... in only two weeks!
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
Cintron? really?
Why would the Cubs sign Cintron? Miles has already been signed for any role Cintron might actually be able to fill. Didn’t the Cubs pass on him last year? Is he somehow more valuable a year later? There is actually no reason to believe the Cubs would want him. He may not even be in baseball this coming season.
by Acapulco Taco Pie on Jan 30, 2009 1:12 AM CST up reply actions
He almost made the team last year...
… the primary reason they didn’t is because he spent a lot of ST hurt.
Cintron would replace Cedeno’s role, not Miles.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
roles
I suppose we’ll see how Lou uses Miles but every indication is that he will back up at 3rd, 2nd and SS as the roster stands now. I don’t see why they would bring in Cintron when they would be better off getting someone that can bat right handed and back up at 3rd and 1st with pop in his bat. The fact that they didn’t think Cintron was good enough last season leads me to believe they won’t think he’s gotten better.
by Acapulco Taco Pie on Jan 30, 2009 2:03 PM CST up reply actions
Cintron WAS good enough last year.
He got hurt in ST. Otherwise I think he would have made the team.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
How about Cintron and Millar?
It’s just quibbling to say he was or wasn’t good enough, fact is, he wasn’t on the team. You think he would have made the team had he stayed healthy, guess we’ll never know. No way to prove you wrong here. I don’t understand why the Cubs would need him. I’ve yet to hear a compelling argument as to why we would need him as opposed to someone like Rich Aurilia or Ty Wigginton who have power and can back up at first and third. Miles is the back up for the middle infield on this team, like it or not. To me this team has no need for Cintron and he isn’t very good at baseball at this point in his career.
by Acapulco Taco Pie on Jan 30, 2009 6:06 PM CST up reply actions
I believe Stark is incorrect...
…when he says “And even after those negotiations are completed, the court still has to sign off”. Please correct me if I’m wrong, but to my understanding, the Cubs were left out of Tribune’s bancruptcy filing; therefore, the court has no jurisdiction over the Cubs’ transaction.
"I never drink water because of the disgusting things fish do in it" -W.C. Fields
I believe
the Bankruptcy Court still has a say, since the company selling the Cubs (TribCo) is in bankruptcy, and the court has the best interest of the creditors not the team ownership that they are bound to look out for.
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
Correct??
Why then would Trib have left the Cubs off the bancruptcy list? Cubbiei-Tim’s points make perfect sense to me but is anybody sure the Court has authority to meddle in this?
"I never drink water because of the disgusting things fish do in it" -W.C. Fields
Authority
The court has authority to oversee any transaction that Trib Co conducts. The Cubs are owned by Trib Co thus any transaction involving them is subject to approval by the bankruptcy court. There is no reason to believe the court will get in their way but Trib Co has to answer to their creditors, ultimately. The Cubs are their asset thus the debtors can attempt to block any deal involving that asset.
by Acapulco Taco Pie on Jan 30, 2009 1:17 AM CST up reply actions
Are you an accountant?
Maybe a tax attorney?
I’m only asking because it seems to me that there are some highly paid professionals in charge of all of this who left the Cubs off of Tribune’s laundry list of assets for a reason. I keep hearing people say what you have, but I wonder if you, and they, really know what the real facts are. Bancruptcy law is extraordinarily involved — and if the Bancruptcy Court can get involved as easily as you suggest, what difference would it make whether the Cubs were included in the original filing or not?
"I never drink water because of the disgusting things fish do in it" -W.C. Fields
The Court ...
… could decide that Ricketts’ offer isn’t enough for the creditors and tell the Cubs to go and get more.
There’s not a real big chance of this, but it is permissible.
I’ll leave it to those who know more about bankruptcy filings to fill in the blank as to why the Cubs were left out.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
Am I an accountant or tax attorney?
I do have many leather bound books. I am also Judge Judy’s legal consultant.
ccf,
You said earlier, “Please correct me if I’m wrong..” evidently you didn’t want anyone to correct you. If you admit not knowing the facts then why dispute what others are saying? Perhaps you should research it on your own.
by Acapulco Taco Pie on Jan 30, 2009 6:34 PM CST up reply actions
Alll Assets
Of the TribCo are reviewable by the Bankruptcy Court, does not matter if filed as part of the Bankruptcy or not.
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
So wait...
…Al you sorta jumped on me for posting this
http://www.bleedcubbieblue.com/2009/1/18/727287/young-to-the-cubs
fanSHOT about Michael Young. Even though it had “new” information (at least I hadn’t read on BCB) regarding the Cubs and their feelings towards Theriot.
And then you go a post another Peavy story as a main headline? I realize this is your blog and you can post whatever the hell you want, but that sorta irked me. Okay I feel better. Let’s hug it out bitch.
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
LOL
I think the reason I said something to you was because someone else had posted it a couple days earlier.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
Yeah but the tid bit about Theriot was new news!
N/t
By the way, my profile link has been fixed. Thanks for mentioning something to them.
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
Glad to hear it got fixed.
If you ever have more problems, or have suggestions, or find bugs, you can send them yourself to
bugreport (at) sbnation (dot) com
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
Agreed
Don’t care about Peavy anymore. Only want to know if he is a Cub whenever that happens if it ever happens.
That's shitastic!
by CUBSfaninYANKEEcountry on Jan 29, 2009 7:53 PM CST reply actions
1st to say I still DO care about Peavy
partially, not just from a WS contention standpoint, but I just really appreciate getting to watch great players.
Spots on the 40 man roster cleared
Cedeno, Olson, and now apparently Hill, only replaced with Heilman.
At near worst, roster spots filled with Bako and Aurilia?
Of course there’s a lot of possible cheap FAs out there. Maybe something a little more sexy will come our way. Not Peavy sexy mind you, maybe someone more Pudge sexy though.
by BucknerKongCardenal on Jan 29, 2009 11:05 PM CST reply actions
Peavy's not coming, according to...
If that’s true, the end result of the trades made so far this offseason is negative, IMO. The 2009 Cubs do not have the depth of last year’s team, IMO.
Start of 08
This team didn’t have Harden or Gaudin among others to start 08. Milton Bradley is a major upgrade in right field. This team has a stronger starting rotation to begin 09, more pitching depth and more lefty bats in the lineup. It is much stronger to start 09 even if Hendry didn’t make move that impressed you. There is not a rotation in the NL that is stronger than the Cubs and their lineup has been upgraded as well. This team should easily win the NL Central barring catastrophic injuries.
by Acapulco Taco Pie on Jan 30, 2009 1:25 AM CST up reply actions
Good points.
This article appears to agree with you. I’m just skeptical about Harden’s, Gaudin’s, Heilman’s and Bradley’s durability. Depth is important to withstand a long season. Having said that, I agree that the lineup has more balance and that the team should win the division. My aim is set higher, though.
by Fraggin Judge on Jan 30, 2009 1:35 AM CST up reply actions
division first
Personally, I expect Hendry to build the best team possible with the resources available. The goal isn’t to win the division but it is what they need to do in order to get to the playoffs and accomplish the ultimate goal of winning the World Series. Once a team gets in the playoffs we’ve seen that any team can win it all.
by Acapulco Taco Pie on Jan 30, 2009 2:07 PM CST up reply actions
I don't think the Peavy Trade was ever going to happen
Personally I think that this was all posturing on SD’s part. They never had any intention of letting him go. They went through the motions of trading him, but they set the bar so high that they knew no team was going to be able to afford him. So now they’ll go back and tell him they want him, but that he needs to re-work his contract because of the budget situation.
If San Diego REALLY wanted Peavy gone, we’d already have had the press conference welcoming him to chicago. If your looking to dump a player for salary, you’ll do whatever it takes to get him off the roster. SD hasn’t so I don’t think they really want him off, but they do want him to re-work his contract so that he’s a lot cheaper.
Under the CBA, he can demand a trade
So if this was the strategy, it wasn’t very good.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jan 29, 2009 11:51 PM CST up reply actions
True...
But they had to get him to waive his no trade clause to come to the cubs. He didn’t want to leave. And SD wants to keep him, just wants to do it cheap, along the model of the athletics. Of course this is just my opinion, nothing to support it, but it’s been my experience watching baseball for a number of years, that when a team wants a player off the books, they make it happen real quick. Look at A-Rod when he left the rangers. That was for a ton of money, far more then the peavy deal, and the rangers made it happen.
incentive?
What would be Peavy’s incentive to re-work his contract? It’s guaranteed money for him, he isn’t giving any of that money back. As a matter of fact he will probably insist that any team that he approves a trade to picks up his option year making it an $85MM deal. He will be happy to pitch out the length of that contract in San Diego if they don’t trade him. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever for him to give back any money or capitulate. The Rangers traded A-Rod and he still received every penny of that contract, he did not take less money in order to be dealt. The players’ association would not allow a player to agree to accept less money than owed to them even if they wanted to accept it in order to be traded. If San Diego chooses to keep Peavy they will have to pay him what he is owed. If they want to get out from under his contract then their only option is to trade him.
by Acapulco Taco Pie on Jan 30, 2009 1:32 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Agreed on all fronts
Ownership stuff could take a LONG time. Chapter 11 will complicate this significantly. Ricketts does have going for him the ability to put more than half of his bid in there in cash. I think that is huge. But we won’t know until it goes through.
Hendry is NOT done. By done I consider this all the way through 8/31. With Hendry I wouldn’t even put a waiver trade past him.
Sweet Lou for Mayor in '11.
The Bankruptcy Court
Can also review other bids, and tell MLB and TribCo that the new owner being accepted is “x” instead of Rickets, based on a better offer which was originally not accepted by MLB or that Rickets must match or beta an offer from “x” in order to continue with the ownership process.
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
Supposedly Ricketts did not have the highest bid
but he is fronting up to $500 million of his own cash and financing roughly $400 million where as the other bidders had less up front and are financing more. The bankruptcy court wants the most cash upfront which heavily favored Ricketts.
That's the way I see the situation.
The court may disagree. We’ll see.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
Well Al you were right about one thing.....
Seems hendry might not be done after all…..
Hill could be headed to Baltimore
Rich Hill | Cubs | Interested: Orioles?
The Orioles and Cubs are again involved in trade talks, this time about the Cubs’ left-handed starter Rich Hill, the Baltimore Sun reported.
One industry source told the newspaper it is a “strong possibility” that Hill, once a top prospect, will wind up with the Orioles, perhaps as early as next week. The Orioles will likely give up a player to be named who could be contingent on Hill’s success in Baltimore.
“We are talking to them,” Orioles club president Andy MacPhail told the newspaper. “We are talking to a lot of teams about a lot of players.”
The Cubs have spoken to several teams about Hill, including the Mariners, but a source said the Orioles are in the lead to land the lefty. The Cubs and Orioles recently completed a deal that sent outfielder Felix Pie to Baltimore for pitcher Garrett Olson.
But for anybody else that thinks there’s even a snowball’s chance in hell that the Peavy trade happens…..
Peavy pursuit impacted by Heilman deal
Jake Peavy | Padres | Interested: Cubs?
The Cubs’ acquisition of Aaron Heilman from the Mariners on Wednesday seemingly will end Chicago’s interest in Padres ace Jake Peavy, the Chicago Tribune reported.
Chicago wants to convert Heilman back to a starting pitcher, and the two players shipped to Seattle – infielder Ronny Cedeno and left-handed pitcher Garrett Olson – were part of a package that it was believed might have gone to the Padres.
The Tribune said it is possible that the new Tom Ricketts-led ownership group would oppose any deal involving Peavy and his $63 million price tag.
“We’ve had no talks about Jake Peavy since they were well-documented during the winter meetings,” assistant general manager Randy Bush told the newspaper. “I don’t anticipate anything happening.”
Heilman becomes part of a growing mix for the fifth starter’s role.
“We’re ready to go to camp,” said Bush
Just pulled this of ESPN…..I think we can put the Peavy trade to rest…..doesn’t sound like it’s going to happen
Please try to put quotes from other sources in quote boxes.
And don’t post entire posts without links… those could be copyright violations.
Thanks.
(Also, both of these things have been discussed to death here over the last couple of days.)
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
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