Rich Hill to the O's
by ambrosiadreams on Jan 29, 2009 9:49 PM CST
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PrintPer Gordo's twitter, Rich Hill (out of options) was just sent to the O's for a player to be named later "once McPhail sorts out his roster". What a sad fall from grace for this once promising lefty. Don't forget, Lou had him penciled in last year for 15 wins. By the way, is it just me or are the Orioles involved every time we make a transaction?? They will look pretty familiar next year with Pie and Hill on their roster.
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I think we'll regret this one
If you had to choose just one characteristic that would get you through life, choose a sense of humor.
He certainly is capable
of rebounding and being a solid #2 starter if he can get through whatever this little slump of his is.
"Yes, dear. You're right. I'm sorry." -Bob Brenly
by ambrosiadreams on Jan 29, 2009 9:52 PM CST up reply actions
Eh
After last year, I think we shouldve all adjusted to life without Rich Hill-the real kick in the ass, thanks to hindsight, is they now have 2 of the keys to last years Roberts trade
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
Maybe,
But he wasn’t likely to win the #5 spot in the Cubs’ rotation and isn’t really suited to the bullpen.
"I've never complained about it. I'm thankful to have a jersey." Mark DeRosa, 22 Aug 2007
mistake
I am shocked that the Cubs just gave up on this guy. What a loss.
Check out my Cubs shrine: http://picasaweb.google.com/vegascubfan/CubsRooms#
There's no team better at giving up on a guy too soon..........
If you had to choose just one characteristic that would get you through life, choose a sense of humor.
yeah, how awful how the Cubs just hung out to dry
Kerry Wood
Angel Guzman
Mark Prior
Neifi Perez
God, what a bunch of slavedrivers there on Clark and Addison ..
Well, Next Year is here .. and Jack's century's gotta end some time .. GO CUBBIES!
yep, he was a mainstay in the rotation last year, a Cy Young contender...
…and we just gave up on him. Left him out to dry. That Hendry is such a cold-hearted bastard….
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Where was he going to go???
Were we supposed to carry him on the major league roster this season, using a spot on the 25-man, while we helped him figure out his problems?
A team like the O’s can afford to do that. We can’t.
Seriously, do you think these decisions are made in a vacuum?
He was out of options
and a longshot to make the team. What’s to regret? That he lost his command? We’re all saddened by this but I hardly “regret” getting something for him.
Best of luck, Rich.
We don't even know what that something is, though.
I would argue that it would’ve been worth it to keep him on the roster for a year and try to work him through whatever this is, mental or physical.
"Yes, dear. You're right. I'm sorry." -Bob Brenly
by ambrosiadreams on Jan 29, 2009 9:55 PM CST up reply actions
and we get a player to be named...
effectively, we get some trash that McPhailure will dump on us. The O’s are laughing already on this one.
Check out my Cubs shrine: http://picasaweb.google.com/vegascubfan/CubsRooms#
agreed.
At the very least, at his low cost, he could’ve been a second LOOGY to Cotts if he didn’t get his act together. I bet he goes on to have a pretty good career. sigh
"Yes, dear. You're right. I'm sorry." -Bob Brenly
by ambrosiadreams on Jan 29, 2009 9:59 PM CST up reply actions
Keep somebody that can't find home plate
and go with a 24 man roster. You must be joking?
you are correct
as a business, perhaps we’ll get something from the O’s that can hit home plate.
Check out my Cubs shrine: http://picasaweb.google.com/vegascubfan/CubsRooms#
by VegasCubFan on Jan 29, 2009 10:03 PM CST up reply actions
I think the Cubs tried that already - last year.
We are a fever ... we are a fever ... we ain't born typical.
Yeah....
I posted this in my fanshot.
I remember when he was solid in 2007. What could have been……
I hope he overcomes this slump, I really do. I just know that a change of scenery is necessary and I wish him good luck.
"It's hard to win 97 games, it's hard to win the division. Our attitude is if you get in every year, you get in most of the time, sooner or later you are going to knock that door down." -- Jim Hendry
I didn't see your fanshot
My apologies. I always forget to look down there.
"Yes, dear. You're right. I'm sorry." -Bob Brenly
by ambrosiadreams on Jan 29, 2009 10:01 PM CST up reply actions
No biggie.
"It's hard to win 97 games, it's hard to win the division. Our attitude is if you get in every year, you get in most of the time, sooner or later you are going to knock that door down." -- Jim Hendry
TWSS
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jan 29, 2009 10:13 PM CST up reply actions
lol
"It's hard to win 97 games, it's hard to win the division. Our attitude is if you get in every year, you get in most of the time, sooner or later you are going to knock that door down." -- Jim Hendry
TWSS
"...the internet is not something you just dump something on. It's not a truck. It's a series of tubes." - Sen. Ted Stevens
Sigh...isn't that what they always say?
We are a fever ... we are a fever ... we ain't born typical.
Curveball
I’ll say this about him and his RickAnkiel disease. Until he imploded, this guy’s curve was unhittable. There were a couple times I would watch him throw Uncle Charlie and be amazed.
Check out my Cubs shrine: http://picasaweb.google.com/vegascubfan/CubsRooms#
I hate the Cardinals and I know we'd never trade to a division foe, but.....
I’d love to see Dave Duncan work with the kid.
If you had to choose just one characteristic that would get you through life, choose a sense of humor.
I'd agree with you.
With all due respect to our guy Rothschild, I do like Duncan a lot as a pitching coach.
One of the best.
"It's hard to win 97 games, it's hard to win the division. Our attitude is if you get in every year, you get in most of the time, sooner or later you are going to knock that door down." -- Jim Hendry
Sorry, but I have NO respect for Rothchild
If you had to choose just one characteristic that would get you through life, choose a sense of humor.
How does Rothschild
keep his job? I mean, every pitcher under his watch is hurt in some way and our bullpen consistently pitches Waaaaaayyyy too fine (as in, I’ll pick at the sides of the plate and WALK this guy!)
Check out my Cubs shrine: http://picasaweb.google.com/vegascubfan/CubsRooms#
by VegasCubFan on Jan 29, 2009 10:06 PM CST up reply actions
I don't understand your argument.
I thought pitching was all about finesse (see Greg Maddux). Pitchers are supposed to flirt with the sides of the plate and throw out there more than down the middle.
Plus, guys getting hurt has nothing to do with Rothschild. If you want to blame that on someone, besides bad luck, blame Mark O’Neill.
"It's hard to win 97 games, it's hard to win the division. Our attitude is if you get in every year, you get in most of the time, sooner or later you are going to knock that door down." -- Jim Hendry
and I'm not saying Mark O'Neill deserves any criticism....
Just sayin’……..
"It's hard to win 97 games, it's hard to win the division. Our attitude is if you get in every year, you get in most of the time, sooner or later you are going to knock that door down." -- Jim Hendry
Actually last season Mark O'neill
And the rest of the Chicago training staff was voted as the best medical staff in baseball.
I can’t find a better article to post than this but you get the idea.
It puts history into perspective. Maybe Prior really was that fragile.
by cubsonWGN4ever on Jan 29, 2009 10:41 PM CST up reply actions
Yeah, I agree.
I knew that our staff was one of the best out there.
I was just saying that if there is anyone to blame for injuries (in our case it isnt), blame usually falls in the hands of the medical staff.
"It's hard to win 97 games, it's hard to win the division. Our attitude is if you get in every year, you get in most of the time, sooner or later you are going to knock that door down." -- Jim Hendry
i feel like
rothschild holds just as much blame for Wood and Prior’s injuries as Dusty. I actually feel like that is an organizational thing. Dusty may have rode Cueto and Volquez a little harder than I liked but it wasn’t anything like what he did to Prior, Wood, and Zambrano. I think the Organization put a check on Dusty.
"Oedipus ruined a great sex life by asking too many questions!"- Dr. Stephen T. Colbert DFA.
by justin007000 on Jan 31, 2009 5:13 PM CST up reply actions
Ahhh a friend from the Red Reporter..
I agree with you. I have a feeling that if Dusty wasn’t the manager during the time Wood and Prior were up-and-comers, things may have turned out differently.
Oh well, though.
"It's hard to win 97 games, it's hard to win the division. Our attitude is if you get in every year, you get in most of the time, sooner or later you are going to knock that door down." -- Jim Hendry
Hindsight is always 20-20. You are really going out
on a limb here. Enough of the Dusty bashing. It’s easy to say that things would have been different with a different manager, that statement is painfully obvious, but no one has a clue if things would have turned out any better. For all we know, another manager may not have even made the playoffs with that team. Let it go, its over.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Feb 1, 2009 10:45 AM CST up reply actions
Dusty bashing? I don't think so.
He did a lot for the team and I appreciate it.
I didn’t say I knew for a fact that things would be different… I said they may have turned out different.
There’s no harm in thinking “what-if” sometimes….
"It's hard to win 97 games, it's hard to win the division. Our attitude is if you get in every year, you get in most of the time, sooner or later you are going to knock that door down." -- Jim Hendry
It's just gotten really tiring.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Feb 2, 2009 1:25 AM CST up reply actions
It's understandable.
But this is my first post, probably ever, regarding the subject.
Just saying….
I’ll move on, I suppose.
"It's hard to win 97 games, it's hard to win the division. Our attitude is if you get in every year, you get in most of the time, sooner or later you are going to knock that door down." -- Jim Hendry
response
Maddux didn’t walk people, he controlled the line and could pitch the sides of the plate. Our relieves do not hit the plate and consistently fall behind hitters in late innings.
As for injuries, yes, they are part of the game, but a good pitching coach, say Leo Mazzone, has a plan to prevent them and keep pitchers in shape.
Just saying….
Check out my Cubs shrine: http://picasaweb.google.com/vegascubfan/CubsRooms#
by VegasCubFan on Jan 29, 2009 10:12 PM CST up reply actions
No
I think he was fine with Rothschild but I Leo Mazzone was his guy and Dick Pole was the guy who helped him get over his really bad season by going with him to Winter Ball in the 87 off season.
Re pitchers and finesse. Finesse pitchers are much rarer than power pitchers. It would be nice if we had more of them but there are not a lot out there. I think it will be a blast to watch Jaime Moyer pitch for the next TWO years.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Jan 29, 2009 11:33 PM CST up reply actions
Maddux said
Dick Pole was one of the best pitching coaches he ever worked with.
"Oedipus ruined a great sex life by asking too many questions!"- Dr. Stephen T. Colbert DFA.
by justin007000 on Jan 31, 2009 5:10 PM CST up reply actions
Too soon?
Give up on Hill too soon? What did you guys need to see? Hill throw multiple balls from the mound off the dugout steps? Face it, he’s got what Blass, Sax, Sasser, Ankiel…pick your favorite…had. He’s done. This transaction is irrelevent.
Who needs a stinkin' tag line? What are they for anyway?
One bad year does not make a pitcher.
The guy still has loads of talent.
"Yes, dear. You're right. I'm sorry." -Bob Brenly
by ambrosiadreams on Jan 29, 2009 10:04 PM CST up reply actions
Wow
You guys sound like you’re trying to prop up a stock that recently fell significantly. It’s a good company, it will rebound, it can’t go any lower….Come on guys, face the reality…Hill is done. His control has been beyond awful for well over a year now. They’ve conducted every possible test on his shoulder and back. They’ve given him rest, they’ve worked him harder, they’ve had sports psychologists speak with him. The same net result, that he can’t consistently get the ball over the plate, continues. It’s really not that big of a deal. Guys like him come and go every single year. Perhaps not as loudly as Hill came and went but there are other guys. There is no need to lose sleep over this one.
Who needs a stinkin' tag line? What are they for anyway?
by krummy12 on Jan 29, 2009 10:35 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
ONE bad year?
I think you’re understating things just a tad.
Hill blew up that one season , this is true. But it’s his continued control issues that kept him from returning to the team. He could have sorted out his problems and returned to the rotation. Obviously there was no progress, so he didn’t. In Lou Piniella’s world, you perform or you ride the bench…or take the plane to AAA.
by northernsails on Jan 30, 2009 2:23 AM CST up reply actions
Also out of options
So he HAD to make the team. And I know hat Lou was not going to sit there the whole year with a screwed-up pitcher on his bench.
by northernsails on Jan 30, 2009 2:25 AM CST up reply actions
Not so fast
Meet Scott Eyre. Seriously though, Eyre should be proof positive that you don’t hogtie your options by keeping a player on the roster that you won’t send to the hill.
"Baseball is like Church. Many Attend; Few Understand." - Leo Durocher
You should be in the Cubs front office
If you had to choose just one characteristic that would get you through life, choose a sense of humor.
Hill's case isn't really like Blass, Sax, Ankiel, Wohlers, etc...
As those guys literally could not come close to the plate (or base, in Sax’s case). Hill still gets strikeouts, and throws hittable pitches. Those guys were throwing the ball FEET wide of home plate. Hill just doesn’t seem to be able to locate well enough.
That said, I’m fine with the decision to let him go. He’s out of options and we don’t have space on the MLB roster to wait and see if he gets it.
To the O's, huh?
So we can trade that prospect away for a mediocre pitcher?
Erm, well if we are going to call Milton Bradley nicknames, mine is Fischer Price: yes, you heard it here first..
he's done
he was a great talent but hes messed up. no confidence! He’s out of options. someone would have most likely claimed him off waivers had they tried to send him down. i hope he does well. i think he’s done..
If you have to eat sh*t, take big bites!
Who on the 25 Man Roster was expendable
The man had no options. He was terrible in AAA last year. He was terrible in Winter Ball this year. It is okay to be mad that he did not pan out or to argue that we screwed him up in some way but you can’t argue that he had place on this year’s Cubs team. If you give him considerable time in spring training in order to pump his trade value, then it takes away from the development of the players that are in the plans for this year’s team. It was time for him to go. He was never going to succeed here. The gray matter between his ears is just not strong enough to play for Lou or play for the Cubs.
W/O any options they had three choices 1)Try to Pass him Through Waivers (he would never make it), 2)Release Him or 3)Trade Him. At least they are getting something….
"When two Whales Fight, many Shrimp Die" - Korean Proverb
by TheRiot Police on Jan 29, 2009 10:17 PM CST reply actions
a PTBNL. big deal!
at that return, it would’ve been more worth it to see what he had this year.
"Yes, dear. You're right. I'm sorry." -Bob Brenly
by ambrosiadreams on Jan 29, 2009 10:19 PM CST up reply actions
he'd have to be up in the Bigs, and if he failed
then it would have been the same story, only a month or two later
Erm, well if we are going to call Milton Bradley nicknames, mine is Fischer Price: yes, you heard it here first..
agreed.
I’m simply arguing that with all his talent it would’ve been worth it to take that risk.
"Yes, dear. You're right. I'm sorry." -Bob Brenly
by ambrosiadreams on Jan 29, 2009 10:22 PM CST up reply actions
You're not alone
Well, you’re not alone in your logic. San Diego continues to try to find something of value out of the shell that was once Mark Prior. The logic may not be sound, but you’re definitely not out on a limb.
Who needs a stinkin' tag line? What are they for anyway?
Had We Not Traded Hill
and Lou used him, and Hill continued to fall further, then it would have been “Lou is not able to handle a young pitcher” blah blah bs. Had Lou NOT used him, it would have been “Lou doesnt like young pitchers” blah blah bs. This is where the perspective of fans and the media get in the way with managing, and making a team better. Hill did not have a place on this team currently, we are in win now mode, not in “let him learn on the job” mode. I am glad to see Hill will get a chance topaly where there are no epectations and he can go out and just pitch.
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
You did not answer the question
Who does he replace on the 25 man roster? Do you want to stunt the growth of Shark, Heilman, Gaudin, or Marshall just to see if in Spring Training this guy can reclaim one year’s worth of glory and be the 5th starter. He was terrible in every league in which he played last year (Spring Training, MLB, Triple AAA, Double A, Winter Ball). He was not exactly lights out prior to 07 and showed signs of mental weakness in his previous seasons…
I had high hopes for the guy but he just is not cutting it.
"When two Whales Fight, many Shrimp Die" - Korean Proverb
by TheRiot Police on Jan 29, 2009 10:22 PM CST up reply actions
Sometimes you have to do what's best for the organization
as a whole. To not give up on Hill, it may have been necessary to push back Shark or Marshall. Just sayin. Hill, with his talent, should’ve taken precedents. All avenues should’ve been exhausted, imho.
"Yes, dear. You're right. I'm sorry." -Bob Brenly
by ambrosiadreams on Jan 29, 2009 10:24 PM CST up reply actions
and what "avenues" were still left to be exhausted?
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
he got yanked fairly quick in 08
But did little in the minors or in Venezuela to prove he’s gotten over his control problems; so I guess some would prefer that “avenue” to be another shot in Chicago in 09, which I think he couldve gotten had he even been avg in the winter leagues
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
Um, why?
Why should any one player take precedence over other players? If he’s not cutting it, the players who have earned the spot on the roster should get the chance. That’s what’s best for the organization. Are you saying that Shark or Marshall aren’t talented? Or that they’re less talented than a guy who’s having trouble finding the plate? Say what you want about Marshall’s mediocre periods, I don’t ever remember watching him become a human walk machine.
If Hill were a rookie or had some options left, things might be different. But that’s not the case. At some point, you have to put talent together with execution and maintain it. Hill couldn’t.
Team Speed Kills. All SEC, all the time.
This seems to imply
that Hill has rare talent. A lefty that throws a decent fastball and a plus breaking ball, but also has control issues, isn’t exactly a rare quantity. It’s a solid quantity, but the implication of your statement is that he’s so rare that he demands the attention. Shark should take precedence over Hill, as Shark has fringe TOR ability, while Hill was more of a mid-end of the rotation guy.
I think the fact that we are getting a PTBNL is better than I could’ve expected. Part of me briefly thought about the idea of Hill as a LOOGY, but that isn’t necessarily a transition that definitely can be made, and Rich was clearly in Lou’s doghouse. On the whole, I’m ok with this deal. The latest article from Jeff Zrbiec suggests the PTBNL will depend on how Rich performs, which is probably fair. We tried everything for a year … cutting the cord isn’t the worst thing. If we want a decent fastball, plus curve LOOGY, we can go with someone like Casey Lambert, amongst others. Short of it is, he needed a change of scenery, we potentially could use the 40 man flexibility.
And as for not being lights out prior to '07
going through AA and AAA he had a K/BB ratio of almost 3:1. I’d say that is pretty lights out.
"Yes, dear. You're right. I'm sorry." -Bob Brenly
by ambrosiadreams on Jan 29, 2009 10:26 PM CST up reply actions
Did you actually watch him pitch last year?
Lou did everything he could to get this guy wins and build his confidence. Nothing worked.
Plus you have it backwards-they actually did do what was good for the organization as a whole by NOT letting Hill impede the progress of more promising pitchers like Shark and Marshall.
Also, you also have to understand that Hill isn’t some promising kid-he’s pushing thirty and has had plenty of chances. I mean, the guy got cut from his winter ball team-that’s not easy to do.
by bluekoolaide on Jan 29, 2009 10:36 PM CST up reply actions
Plus
This isn’t the first time Hill has been prone to bouts of wildness. He had something similar to this before hitting the majors. I would argue that his season or two in which he was able to harness his control is the outlier here and his natural tendency is to be unable to consistently throw strikes. Never a good combination for a major league SP.
Who needs a stinkin' tag line? What are they for anyway?
I did watch him pitch last year.
and I understand your arguments, but I have to correct you on a couple of points you made. Rich was 1-0 with the Cubs last year, and after Lou yanked him out of the game in St. Louis, he never again pitched on the big club. So to say Lou gave him every chance to win games and gain confidence is unfounded.
Secondly, I don’t understand how giving up on a lefty with obviously dominant stuff (when he’s right) is best for the organization. I mean, we all agree Shark is a future starter anyway, so why not start him in AAA and give Hill one more shot?
"Yes, dear. You're right. I'm sorry." -Bob Brenly
by ambrosiadreams on Jan 29, 2009 10:39 PM CST up reply actions
Honestly
I see where you’re coming from but if your command is as bad as Hill’s has been for well over a year, you don’t have dominant stuff. You have sub-major league stuff.
Who needs a stinkin' tag line? What are they for anyway?
agreed.
I guess with Hill it’s just harder for me to accept because his problems seem to be mental. I have a sneaking suspicion that once he figures that out he will return to the ’07 Rich Hill, who would be a welcome addition to any ML rotation.
"Yes, dear. You're right. I'm sorry." -Bob Brenly
by ambrosiadreams on Jan 29, 2009 10:43 PM CST up reply actions
that may be, but you need to seriously and objectively ask yourself...
…would he be able to figure that out while occupying the last spot in the bullpen for the 2009 Cubs?
For a variety of reasons, most, if not all, of which have been already pointed out in this thread, it just wasn’t going to happen for Rich Hill with the Cubs. Better for him that he gets a chance somewhere else.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Cut From Winter Ball?
I did not no . That makes me feel a lot better about Hendry’s Decision. I’m convinced this Guy has had all the chances the Cubs could give him. He’s Done.
Minor League Stats
Really…you are going to make an argument for a pitcher to stay on an MLB roster and take the place of another capable MLB player who has had more sustained success in the big leagues or has shown more promise by quoting a minor league stat.
His stat line is not terrible in the MLB but it has been said by many people..including those in the organization…that Hill overthinks and forgets to pitch. He totally crapped himself this year and given his suspect performance at times in previous years thus they made an executive design that he would not recover.
The Cubs made a risk adverse decision. They decided that Rich Hill was not in there plans and instead of stunting the growth of another player who might be they decided to cut ties Hill and try to get something.
"When two Whales Fight, many Shrimp Die" - Korean Proverb
by TheRiot Police on Jan 29, 2009 10:43 PM CST up reply actions
A minor league stat
that’s SO dominant, absolutely I am. It’s an argument that needs to not be overlooked.
"Yes, dear. You're right. I'm sorry." -Bob Brenly
by ambrosiadreams on Jan 29, 2009 10:45 PM CST up reply actions
Okay...We can agree to disagree on that
"When two Whales Fight, many Shrimp Die" - Korean Proverb
by TheRiot Police on Jan 29, 2009 11:06 PM CST up reply actions
ONLY if there are not major league stats
But we have major-league stats here. Those are better indicators of major-league success, I would argue, than minor-league stats. You care to differ with that statement?
Team Speed Kills. All SEC, all the time.
Well, I'm at a loss for our last few moves.
Rich Hill…gone.
Cedeno…gone.
Pie…gone.
Olson…gone.
I’m really not seeing a lot of return value for a few guys that were pretty highly touted in our farm system (and the O’s) over the last few years. As much as I hate to say it, I really hope these are all precursors for JP. I don’t understand the logic otherwise.
Dan
Evey Hammond: Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici. V: By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.
Maybe Hendry feels like we're in a rut...
Because few of our prospects are panning out and he feels like those who are not performing now are dragging us down (that’s not to say they’re potentially good players). So he’s trying to inject fresh blood into the organization?
Maybe the new ownership wants to turn over a fresh leaf and see what comes up on the other side? We’ve tried throwing money at everything in sight and not had much luck in the postseason. Who knows, maybe this strategy will work. Though it does feel like throwing darts.
by cubsonWGN4ever on Jan 29, 2009 10:48 PM CST up reply actions
What did we win last year WITH those guys?
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jan 29, 2009 10:48 PM CST up reply actions
I don't think of it like that.
I think of it as value in a trade. Packaged together, Hill, Cedeno, Pie, and Olson could have a great deal of innate value. A team looking to rebuild like the Padres could use any of those four guys on a regular basis and get great return value. We all know Felix needed regular playing time, Olson still is going to be a solid pitcher, Cedeno is a feasible starter or great bench player, and one bad year of Hill isn’t worth giving up on. Hell, we kept Prior way too long.
Dan
Evey Hammond: Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici. V: By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.
Throw in DeRo
and we could’ve gotten one hell of a return.
"Yes, dear. You're right. I'm sorry." -Bob Brenly
by ambrosiadreams on Jan 29, 2009 10:51 PM CST up reply actions
No shit.
A package of those 5 guys woulda probably given us JP by now. I know less about the 3 we got for DeRo, however.
Evey Hammond: Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici. V: By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.
same here.
but i’d rather have JP than those 3 from Cleveland.
"Yes, dear. You're right. I'm sorry." -Bob Brenly
by ambrosiadreams on Jan 29, 2009 10:54 PM CST up reply actions
Seriously?
All of our overrated prospects would bring us Jake Peavy? On what planet would that happen?
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
Same ol argument of biased fans....
Take 6 players that have never proven anything and you should be able to trade them for Pujols or Peavy…. Fortunately these people are not running the Cubs. If they were we would still have Prior, EPatt, Matt Murton etc… They are always worried about all of them turning into superstars somewhere else and that has yet to happen.
by LT on Jan 30, 2009 9:18 AM CST up reply actions
Not w/o Vitters
Hill, Cedeno, Pie, Olson and DeRo (who’s a veteran now, not a prospect) — for a Cy Young winner? Nope. That would just guarantee the need to include Vitters, which is still not something I’m willing to do.
Team Speed Kills. All SEC, all the time.
Well, you have to find a team that wants all those pieces.
The teams that could use a CF like Pie weren’t looking for middle IFs. I think we could have packaged Cedeno and DeRosa to get a good deal from the Twins. That’s one I wish I could ask Jim about.
The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.
You're forgetting about the timing
Hill, Cedeno, and Pie all had no options left and there wasn’t any room for them on this year’s team, so Cubs had to move them. That simple fact knocks down the return value significantly. If you want to feel bad, then you can go back to previous years and ponder why Cubs didn’t trade those guys then.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
agreed ..
Imagine if Matt Murton had remained aboard.
He’d probably have been on the same plane to Baltimore Pie and Hill are going to be on .. and who know but the Player Who Shall Not Be Named might have made an appearance earlier and a Milton Gameboard one might not have been necessary.
Well, Next Year is here .. and Jack's century's gotta end some time .. GO CUBBIES!
Nope. But thanks LT .. that's who I meant to mention
Lookit the “stats” ..
LT helps the argument. I forgot about Eric (sheesh) .. That is who I was thinking about and mentioned Murton for some reason.
You got one good solid bench player in Patterson, one of the young, dazzling starters for the Cubs as well as the “up and coming” new CF for the Cubs in Pie. Throw Murton in for good measure, pinch hitting or perhaps DH’ing. Yep, TPWSBN could have been here last year.
Of course, it’s all well and good here in these cold winter daze a year later to speculate about this, but it’s possible.
Well, Next Year is here .. and Jack's century's gotta end some time .. GO CUBBIES!
by cubnational on Jan 31, 2009 11:32 PM CST up reply actions
I missed that you were referring to last year
I thought (for some reason) you meant had we kept Murton until now (i.e., 2008), put him with Pie and Hill and sent two AAAA players and a pitcher with control problems to Baltimore for TPWSNBN.
I still think it would have been a stretch, but far more plausible last year than this.
Team Speed Kills. All SEC, all the time.
Really?
You think so? While I respectfully disagree, ask yourself this. Would you trade Zambrano for a package like that? How about Lilly? Dempster? A healthy Harden? I think the answer is the same…absolutely not.
Who needs a stinkin' tag line? What are they for anyway?
While you have a very valid point
Remember, it depends on whether a team is in “win now” mode or rebuilding and/or dumping salary.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jan 30, 2009 9:19 AM CST up reply actions
Rebuilding with what?
The only one out of that bunch that even has a chance of being a “rebuilding” block is Pie. Otherwise, you get a bunch of fringe Major leaguers that may be young and inexpensive now, but in 3-4 years are still going to be fringe Major Leaguers, the only difference is now they’re old and more expensive. And for that you traded away your Big Kahuna.
I don’t deny that for some teams sometimes the situation dictates you have move your stars – but geez louise, give your team a chance for something in return.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Cedeno, possibly
But Hill, yeah — forget it.
And DeRosa obviously wouldn’t be part of a rebuilding effort. Guess I was just trying to help a fellow Badger and didn’t put enough thought into it.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jan 30, 2009 10:13 AM CST up reply actions
Ahhh... but your loyalty is to be commended
now go watch “Old School” and be happy.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Pie and Olson were traded for each other.
Therefore, they couldn’t be packaged together.
"I've never complained about it. I'm thankful to have a jersey." Mark DeRosa, 22 Aug 2007
value wise
The problem with the value argument would be that all 3 of the 4 guys values were at a low – Hill/Pie/Olson, with Cedeno floating. I’m not saying I agree with all the moves – some of them have me scratching my head. But … that foursome didn’t have as much value as their skillset may suggest.
I don't think Rich Hill has much to do with anything.
Rich wasn’t going to work with our current coaching staff and he’s probably not going to work with anyone.
The Baltimore Sun suggests the value of our PTBNL is contingent on Rich’s success, so this is a good deal for Jim. I didn’t expect he’d get anything at all for Rich. Without options, there aren’t many teams to take Rich on and of those, why not wait for some other team to take the first shot and grab him when he goes on waivers? Jim got something for Rich and that’s a win.
The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.
by DGU on Jan 29, 2009 10:49 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
I like your analysis
I’m a big Rich Hill fan, just sorry to see him go. However, I understand why and like the fact that we have “accelerators” in the trade for the PTBNL. Well, if he somehow figures everything out, best of luck to him.
Check out my Cubs shrine: http://picasaweb.google.com/vegascubfan/CubsRooms#
by VegasCubFan on Jan 29, 2009 10:51 PM CST up reply actions
I think you’re giving up on Rich too quickly. It’s not like he’s been wack for years; he’s had one off year. For an organization that put up with The Employee, what’s another year with Rich gonna cost us?
Evey Hammond: Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici. V: By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.
by dtpollitt on Jan 29, 2009 10:54 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
+1
"Yes, dear. You're right. I'm sorry." -Bob Brenly
by ambrosiadreams on Jan 29, 2009 10:57 PM CST up reply actions
This isn't just an off year.
Rich hasn’t been able to find the plate in any environment and he’s tried them all.
We can think of guys like Greinke, and say, yes, in theory, Rich can come back. But the reality is that Rich will not come back under the current Cubs management. Personally, I’d have liked us trying to put Rich in the back of the ’pen as if he were a Rule V guy and just bring him in for mop-up duty. But do you really see Lou putting up with that?
The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.
Bad comparison
Greinke’s “mental” issues had nothing to do with confidence. They had nothing to do with not being able to get the ball over the plate. Major difference there.
Who needs a stinkin' tag line? What are they for anyway?
You're right - there's no direct comparison to Rich Hill
Greinke is only comparable in that he wasn’t able to be effective for a year and came back and was. He’s comparable in that both players problems were not physical (although I believe Rich has blamed a bad back himself).
The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.
Small potatoes
McPhail: Rich Hill has no spot on your team, I’ll take him. You don’t object?
Hendry: He’s small potatoes.
Piniella: "This is a tougher job than I thought it would be, I'm going to be honest with you."
When I heard, I wasn't angry.
When this happened, I let it go. And I said to myself, “This is the business we have chosen!”
Change
Rich Hill: I’ll change; I’ll change. I’ve learned that I have the strength to change.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
How many lightbulbs does it take to change Rich Hill?
I have no idea. Just thought I’d post a silly twist on lightbulb jokes.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
1,461
at one light bulb per person.
"I've never complained about it. I'm thankful to have a jersey." Mark DeRosa, 22 Aug 2007
Different cases
Prior was injured so he could be (actually, had to be) parked on the DL. Hill is not injured, so there is nowhere to stash him.
The “cost” is a 25 man roster spot. I could certainly argue that the NL Central sucks so badly that we could win the division with a 24 man roster very easily. However, I don’t think that Lou thinks that way.
Also, if we keep the Rule 5 kid, that would be another “dead” roster spot.
"I've never complained about it. I'm thankful to have a jersey." Mark DeRosa, 22 Aug 2007
We're supposed to be a contender now
We have to think differently.
Team Speed Kills. All SEC, all the time.
It's almost as if there's some kind of roster crunch going on
It’s almost as if we didn’t have room on our 25-man roster for 28-players
unfortunate but necessary
As is pointed out , THERE WAS NO ROOM FOR HIM on the roster. My only regret is that they should NOT have protected him in the rule 5 draft and that way they could have kept Veal who sadly at this point would have more value. I am upset about Cedeno and especially Pie who I think were badly handled but something is wrong with Hill.
He was beyond bad in winter ball. I really, really hope he can turn it around but I would not be surprised if he does not make the O’s roster and the Cubs get zilch. He has great talent but something is wrong with his head.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Jan 29, 2009 10:51 PM CST reply actions
Jessica,
He was automatically protected from the Rule 5 draft because he was on the 40 man roster. In order to remove him from the roster, they would have had to expose him to outright waivers — which he would never have cleared.
If you are upset about losing Veal, the correct “prospects” to wonder about protecting are Sam Fuld and Jake Fox.
"I've never complained about it. I'm thankful to have a jersey." Mark DeRosa, 22 Aug 2007
Since we don't have any sources up yet...
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2009/01/os-cubs-talking.html
http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/baseball/bal-orioles0129,0,3367706.story
I don’t see anything official yet?
Evey Hammond: Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici. V: By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.
There isn't anything official yet.
That Baltimore Sun link indicates the problem: the Orioles’ 40-man roster is full. They can’t trade for Hill until they move a player off of it — so Andy is probably deciding what player to ship to the Cubs.
Which means this deal could be done by, say, August.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
I hope....
This turns out to be the best trade that didn’t happen
If you had to choose just one characteristic that would get you through life, choose a sense of humor.
I hope it gets done ASAP
so we don’t have to argue this for another 6 months. The Cubs will just waive him if there are no takers.
by LT on Jan 30, 2009 9:22 AM CST up reply actions
August?
So you’re not expecting Angelos to get involved in this one? ;)
Team Speed Kills. All SEC, all the time.
I recommended this post to move up to the panthenon of posts:
RECOMMENDED FANPOSTS!
Dan
Evey Hammond: Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici. V: By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.
I'm surprised by all the angst
I would be stunned if Rich Hill ever threw a pitch as an MLB pitcher again. Tim Wilken admitted to a friend of mine at the convention that only 1 pitcher has ever come back from this kind of psychological issue — and I thought Hill was a head case BEFORE.
It’s sad that his potential didn’t pan out, but that was months ago. This is ok.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jan 29, 2009 11:39 PM CST reply actions
Can someone list the deals we have done with the O's over the past 3 years?
We can include the Brian Roberts deal in there too, since it came so close it might as well count it.
There've been several...
Sosa (4 years ago) for Hairston/Fontenot/Crouthers
Patterson (3 years ago) for C.Perez/Spears
Trachsel (1.5 years ago) for Cherry/Moore
Bynum for Hart
Pie for Olson/Williamson
and potentially Hill for PTBNL
Sorry if I missed any.
Not a trade
but the Once and Future Cubs backup catcher (Bako) was on the Orioles in 2007, I think it was.
"Who's Bob Brenly? The guy that used to be the manager for Arizona?" ~ Alfonso Guilleard Soriano
I think we actually got the best of the Sosa deal
he was pretty bad for O’s as I remember, but had one good season for Texas, while we may have gotten our starting secondbaseman out of that
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
Advantage Cubs
In a net sum game, the Cubs have made out on those deals. Fontenot is still viable and some, not me, would argue that Hart is too. The rest of the entire lot….valueless.
Who needs a stinkin' tag line? What are they for anyway?
It's a little early to judge
those last two.
The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.
The only one I'd certainly take back was the Trachsel deal...
as he was worthless for us and was immediately released. At the time, it seemed like Moore might have some prospect value. Not saying that Moore and Cherry had MUCH value, but I’d have traded them for almost anything else.
Slight edit...
the Trachsel trade should of course be reversed in order based on the way I presented the list. It should read Cherry/Moore (1.5 years ago) for Trachsel, as we were the team receiving Trachsel.
After receiving Gordo's tweet on this last night...
…I was laughing to myself about how, for better or worse, the O’s continue to serve as the Cubs dumping ground.
We are a fever ... we are a fever ... we ain't born typical.
We didn't give up too much
But I really wish we could have the Trachsel deal back. Anything for what Trachsel gave us that year was too much.
Team Speed Kills. All SEC, all the time.
side note
but we gave up a raw arm in the Trachsel deal in Jake Renshaw. His future is probably in the pen.
It's a good-natured move by the Cubs...
so Hendry can go back to Andy and say, hey we gave you Rich Hill.
Sweet Lou for Mayor in '11.
Which could be a negative for Hendry if Hill continues to blow chunks
"Who's Bob Brenly? The guy that used to be the manager for Arizona?" ~ Alfonso Guilleard Soriano
Bottom Line
Hill was out of options……..and……………awful!!!
Just exactly where was he fitting in this year anyhow?
who cares
Hill
I imagine the PTBNL will also depend on whether or not Hill makes the Orioles out of spring training. Likely the Cubs get someone insignificant if he’s released during spring training… maybe a decent prospect if he makes the team.
IMO the Cubs should have kept Hill and let him battle for the 5th spot in the rotation. I cannot imagine that any of the possible PTBNLs involved in this deal have as high of a ceiling as Hill does.
Agree with your assessment.
However, I don’t believe Rich was going to get any fair shot to make the rotation. With Z, Dempster, Lilly, Harden, Heilman, Marshall & Shark, he would have to be lights out to have a chance. One horrific inning would seal his fate and see him released or traded for even less after he’d proven in 2009 ST he can’t still pitch.
I’m sorry circumstances dictated he be jettisoned, but happy there is a chance for anything in return.
With 4 other players already vying for the 5th spot...
I’d rather not waste time watching Hill flounder. Once upon a time, I too thought this guy would be a lock in the rotation for years to come, but unfortunately, that’s no longer the case. I think Hendry did the wise thing by getting something out of him, even if it is just a PTBNL.
"If I ever saw myself saying I'm excited going to Cleveland, I'd punch myself in the face, because I'm lying." - Ichiro
by The Guy Who Accidentally Saved the World on Jan 31, 2009 5:05 PM CST up reply actions
A player doesn't always reach his ceiling
And chances are, Hill won’t.
Team Speed Kills. All SEC, all the time.
Rich Hill is finished
A team like Baltimore can afford to take a flyer on the 29 year old. We can’t. I won’t lie awake at night worrying about Rich Hill coming back to haunt.
Probably so...
… I think there is still a chance (albeit small) that he figures it out, and pitches several more season in the majors — to varying degrees of success.
Considering that he is out of options and that we expect to be in WS contention, however, we are not a team that is in a position to find out. If he had options, we could afford to stick him in AAA while he works on his issues. Or, if we didn’t expect to contend you can take a chance on carrying him as a 12th pitcher/swing-man and hope for the best. With this team, though, the 7 bullpen spots are too valuable to take a gamble like this.
That said, I wish him the best in Baltimore and hope he figures it out. No worries about anything coming back to haunt us. At least Hendry will manage to go something out of him.
"...the internet is not something you just dump something on. It's not a truck. It's a series of tubes." - Sen. Ted Stevens
the worst part about this
is that, a year ago, Hill could have been traded for something of great value. The Cubs rarely are able to sell high on trades — with the possible exception of Sean Gallagher.
Hill had no place on the ‘09 Cubs. He hasn’t been able to find the plate since the ’07 playoffs — and that includes winter ball.
I liked Rich a lot — he was about the only thing worth watching during the second half of the ’06 season. But, as many posters have said, he had no place on a team built to win now.
did you have x-ray vision?
Piniella: "This is a tougher job than I thought it would be, I'm going to be honest with you."
Prospects fail
It happens all the time. There is no GM that can guess who will make it and who won’t. I really hate this “the Cubs never sell high” mantra. What would have happened if Hendry sold high before last season on Soto?
Let’s see, do you think the White Sox wished they sold high on Joe Borchard? How much would the Braves have gotten for Jeff Francoeur after his initial season? How much would the Angels have gotten for some of theirs like Dallas McPherson and Brandon Wood? The Pirates and Zach Duke. He’s still pretty young but how much has the Yankees’ Philip Hughes fallen? He was considered the top pitching prospect in baseball. The list goes on and on.
This is all Lou's Fault
Brock that is. I think until we fleece somebody for a HOF player, the force will be unbalanced and any trade no matter how much sense it makes will be scrutinized by certain fans as the second coming of the Trade.
I figured that the Sandberg trade would have returned the balance to the force but it appears there is still a disturbance…
"When two Whales Fight, many Shrimp Die" - Korean Proverb
BHill for ARam ought to be enough to bring balance back to the Force
not necessarily a HOFer, but definitely a fleecing.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Anything at all for Hundley . . .
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jan 30, 2009 10:41 AM CST up reply actions
not too lng ago
George Bell for some young kid with potential (Sammy Sosa) looked like a good deal…..How about Bobby Hill and getting Nomar and Murton……..I guess these didnt count as fleecing a team.
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
I corrected that already elsewhere..
when i listed five different trades Hendry pulled off
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
Sports Corner
Does anyone know what is going to replace Sports Corner?
http://wrigleyexpansion.com/img/wrigicture042.jpg
http://www.mysportsscoop.com
Yes. Renovated Sports Corner.
Brian McRae's 5 o'clock shadow
by PurpleLineToWrigley on Jan 30, 2009 10:09 AM CST up reply actions
PurpleLineToWrigley is correct.
They claim they’re going to be finished by Opening Day. If so, they better build fast.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
A TD Ameritrade branch office... ;-)
might be the only way some folks can get tickets – cash in some stocks for a couple of field boxes…
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
HA!
They could open another office outside Yankee stadium for people wanting to buy those $2,500 front row tickets.
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on Jan 30, 2009 11:12 AM CST up reply actions
Rich Hill to the O's
Why are we stressing over Hill? I thought we are trying to win now! Hill could not throw strikes. No need to keep him if he is out of option AND a longshot to make the team. Good luck to him in Baltimore, at least he can’t hurt us from the American League.
unless we play Baltimore in the World Series
ha ha ha ha… oh I just slay myself sometimes….
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Why didn't we trade Hill straight up for Peavy?
Brian McRae's 5 o'clock shadow
by PurpleLineToWrigley on Jan 30, 2009 10:05 AM CST reply actions
Too lopsided...
…maybe if the Padres paid part of Peavy’s salary… Then you’re talking.
"...the internet is not something you just dump something on. It's not a truck. It's a series of tubes." - Sen. Ted Stevens
And also gave us Adrian Gonzalez...
Brian McRae's 5 o'clock shadow
by PurpleLineToWrigley on Jan 30, 2009 10:22 AM CST up reply actions
I'd even throw in Micah on that deal...
…to be nice.
"...the internet is not something you just dump something on. It's not a truck. It's a series of tubes." - Sen. Ted Stevens
No, no, no...
…not Peavy; we traded Rich Hill for Brian Roberts. Haven’t you heard? He’s the PTBNL. Man, you guys have got to stay in the loop.
We are a fever ... we are a fever ... we ain't born typical.
Ahh, of COURSE!
Brian McRae's 5 o'clock shadow
by PurpleLineToWrigley on Jan 30, 2009 12:07 PM CST up reply actions
That's what she said.
And she did.
Brian McRae's 5 o'clock shadow
by PurpleLineToWrigley on Jan 30, 2009 10:14 AM CST up reply actions
wish yah the best, hill
It’s too bad Rich Hill struggled so much this year and is going through whatever issues.
I do think he can return to decent form if not what he was at his best. Maybe a new scenery will work wonders for him.
I was thinking a team like the Royals could bring him out of his funk if it’s emotional related as well being a team where high expectations aren’t so much an issue. Orioles could work in that regard also. Fans won’t turn on you so quickly as well…
Good luck Hill.
Baltimore has fascination with reclamation projects
How’d that Corey Patterson fella work out? Or Freddy Boom Boom Bynum? Felix Pie is incapable of hitting major league pitching, so we won’t lose sleep over him either. Rich Hill? He’s a hopeless confluence of too limited a pitching repetoire and apparent mental roadblocks.
So if Andy McFAIL wants to accumulate the tattered remains of the Cub system, then let him go for it. While were at it we might as well ship off Michael Wuertz to Baltimore.
I don't know if I would call
Freddy Bynum a “reclamation project.”
He was never much of anything to begin with…Not even a hot prospect.
Brian McRae's 5 o'clock shadow
by PurpleLineToWrigley on Jan 30, 2009 10:32 AM CST up reply actions
Well
Corey Patterson did give them one year of league average hitting with plus defense and one year of below average hitting with plus defense.
For a team like Baltimore that should be helping young pitchers or reclamation pitching projects going, plus defense is a very good risk to take; at least the defense doesn’t go into a slump.
The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.
They have nothing to lose
And if Rich Hill turns it around, a whole lot to gain.
by dr stabbingworth on Jan 30, 2009 11:20 AM CST up reply actions
I feel happy for Rich
There’s a lot of familiar people to him in Baltimore, and I have to believe that played a part in why that’s where he’s headed. Not only because they think Kranitz and the other former coach of his whose name I never knew so I can’t recall now, but because Hendry would probably prefer to send him somewhere where he’s going to have the best shot. And not come back to haunt us.
This is like a swift kick in the gut...
when I think that just ONE YEAR ago trading Hill and Pie to Baltimore (along with a few other guys) would have likely netted Brian Roberts. Hendry, as always, held onto em too long and we’re left with a used infield rake just one year later. If this isn’t an indictment of how Hendry does business I don’t know what is. An excellent example of his weak spot as a GM.
um, he traded Bobby Hill for Aramis....
and Hee Seop Choi for D-Lee.
Weren’t those guys highly touted?
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on Jan 30, 2009 11:15 AM CST up reply actions
ZING!
Brian McRae's 5 o'clock shadow
by PurpleLineToWrigley on Jan 30, 2009 11:16 AM CST up reply actions
A few that were great deals
Kenny Lofton Aramis Ramirez Cash For Jose Hernandez Matt Bruback Bobby Hill PTBNL
Nomar Garciaparra Matt Murton Alex Gonzalez Francis Beltran Brendan Harris Justin Jones
Harden Chad Gaudin for Sean Gallagher Eric Patterson Matt Murton Josh Donaldson
Hee Sop Choi for D-Lee
Hundley for Karros and Grudz.
yup, I see now that Hendry never makes a good trade…….
Hundley
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
um, the Red Sox won the WS in 2004
With A-Gon, if IIRC.
Meanwhile, we got how many games out of Nomar in 04 and 05?
Otherwise, a good list.
Team Speed Kills. All SEC, all the time.
AGon
went to Montreal in the trade
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
Trade was
Cubs got Nomar and Murton
Boston gor Orlando Cabrera and Doug Mientkiewicz
Montreal got Alex Gonzalez, pitcher Francis Beltran and infielder Brendan Harris
Twins got minor league pitcher Justin Jones.
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
Ah ... had forgotten the details
I stand corrected. Still not what I would call a great deal, given what we got from Nomar and Murton, IMHO, unless your saying Murton was invaluable to the Harden deal. And I still think the jury’s out on that one.
Team Speed Kills. All SEC, all the time.
another trade that could be better than initially thought
Buck Coats for Marcus Mateo. Mateo was supposedly looking absolutely filthy at times. I think that under Hendry, his team likes looking for some raw arms in deals. At times, like Ceda and Mateo, it can hit. Other times, like Fabian Jimenez and Joel Santo, it doesn’t.
Please
Rich Hill was pencilled into the rotation. There was little chance of him being traded. There isn’t a single person here who thought he would collapse like this.
I’m all for nailing Hendry on his bad trades, but this is absurd. It’s easy to criticize a guy when you know everything turns out.
by dr stabbingworth on Jan 30, 2009 11:21 AM CST up reply actions
Agreed
I didn’t even want them to inclue Hill if it meant getting Bedard, because I thought that would be a wash in the rotation. Turns out that was true, but not the way I thought . . . .
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jan 30, 2009 11:31 AM CST up reply actions
Prospects fail
Sorry for the repeat from above but the expectation that Jim Hendry have ESP and be able to pick the Rich Hills from the Geovany Sotos is laughable.
Prospects fail all the time. There is no GM that can guess who will make it and who won’t. I really hate this "the Cubs never sell high" mantra. What would have happened if Hendry sold high before last season on Soto?
Let’s see, do you think the White Sox wished they sold high on Joe Borchard? How much would the Braves have gotten for Jeff Francoeur after his initial season? How much would the Angels have gotten for some of theirs like Dallas McPherson and Brandon Wood? The Pirates and Zach Duke. He’s still pretty young but how much has the Yankees’ Philip Hughes fallen? He was considered the top pitching prospect in baseball.
by rlpete on Jan 30, 2009 11:36 AM CST up reply actions 5 recs
Rec'd
Brian McRae's 5 o'clock shadow
by PurpleLineToWrigley on Jan 30, 2009 11:48 AM CST up reply actions
Your right...
…in saying prospects fail. In fact, the vast majority of them fail to be legit major league players.
The whole issue of rendering a solid opinion on whether a prospect will make it or not, does vary from organization to organization, depending on their own ability to recognize the qualities that not everyone can see. Also, a lot of this has to do with the quality of your draft picks and how well you develop players during their crucial years (first 2 years in the system). Some are better at this than others, and the ones that excell, can typically be competitive without relying on a shopping spree each season to fill holes.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
Huh?!?
A year ago Felix Pie remained a top prospect within the Cub system and Rich Hill was a defined piece of the Cub starting rotation. Cubs weren’t about to trade away Pie when it was organizational assessment at the time that he could be a good major league outfielder. Nor were they about to jettison a pitcher in Hill who looked very good the year before.
Revisionist history is a bitch.
+ 100
Well, Next Year is here .. and Jack's century's gotta end some time .. GO CUBBIES!
by cubnational on Jan 31, 2009 11:39 PM CST up reply actions
Gimme a break.
Again, hindsight is 20/20. If Rich Hill had given the Cubs another 195 innings in 2008 with 183 Ks and a 1.195 WHIP, you wouldn’t be saying that. No GM can predict a collapse like Hill’s.
We are a fever ... we are a fever ... we ain't born typical.
Oy...
I guess we’ve reached the point where Twitter is now considered a legitimate source for information :(
Count me as one who thinks this is a bad thing.
(Please note I’m not saying this trade won’t happen [though I still have yet to see anything but rumors], but Twitter is not exactly the WSJ…)
by CubsWin!Oregon on Jan 30, 2009 12:26 PM CST reply actions
Blasphemy!
Twitter is the perfect technology for today’s attention-span-challenged individuals because it captures the essence… er… umm… I’m sorry, what were we talking about?
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Jan 30, 2009 12:35 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
snorted milk outa me nose on that one ballhawk
that was good
Well, Next Year is here .. and Jack's century's gotta end some time .. GO CUBBIES!
by cubnational on Jan 31, 2009 11:40 PM CST up reply actions
I would respond...
…but I’m afraid of exceeding 140 characters.
We are a fever ... we are a fever ... we ain't born typical.
This blog has a ways to go before we have 140 "characters" in here.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jan 30, 2009 1:39 PM CST up reply actions
Jay Johnstone
he was a character
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
Hmm
I wonder why there wasn’t a blurb about this deal in the Journal.
Twitter is a legitimate source of social networking, and there are plenty of legitimate journalists who use it to get information out to the public in a timely manner. Count me as one who thinks this is one of the ideals journalists should aspire to.
Brian McRae's 5 o'clock shadow
by PurpleLineToWrigley on Jan 30, 2009 2:02 PM CST up reply actions
I guess...
for me it’s just that I value that there are instruments in place for fact-checking in major media outlets. It’s not one guy posting 140 characters without any filter or oversight. In other words, Twitter is unfiltered media spam, to me.
Accuracy and a bureauracy of factcheckers is a better ideal in my mind. (In fact, the problem with a lot of the “rumor” sites is that they don’t bother with corroboration. It’s just a race to be first to report the latest words someone, somewhere threw into the echo chamber. Bring Twitter into the equation, and it’d be even worse.)
by CubsWin!Oregon on Jan 30, 2009 6:58 PM CST up reply actions
FtR
You wouldn’t be able to tell that I’m not a huge fan of main-stream media, based on what I wrote above.
To make myself feel better, I’ll note that I’m more a blog guy than not…there’s just something about Twitter that bothers me…Too ADHD or something…
And now back to things that other people actually care about :)…
by CubsWin!Oregon on Jan 30, 2009 7:03 PM CST up reply actions
This out of options
thing is out of control. Face it, the Cubs for the last couple years have been pulling guys up and down. They come up stay a week or two and go down. Idealy you keep your highly touted players out of this loop. Which they did not.
I think these out of option players was nothing more than mis-management by the Cubs. If you know you only need to cover a position (injury what have you) for a couple of weeks, don’t call upon a high prospect. Use one that you can stomach loosing because they are out of options.
They (the Cubs) yanked Pie, Hill, Cedeno and many others up and down. Not only were they burning up their options, but they also succeeded to destroy some of the confidence that is needed by any MLB.
I guess this is the reason we continually do not have homegrown talent. Oh sure we have some, but far and few
"You can't take life to seriously, you don't get out of it alive"
Options have nothing to do with number of trips to the majors
It’s a certain number of years. If you call someone up 3X in 2009, it burns one option, not 3.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jan 30, 2009 2:13 PM CST up reply actions
Still, there is a point here
about bringing up players before they are ready and/or not sticking with them long enough if you believe they are ready.
The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.
Yes, I agree with that
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Jan 30, 2009 2:41 PM CST up reply actions
Thanks
for the information. As a baseball novice, I am not 100% aware of all the rules. But still I believe that they have misused the system.
"You can't take life to seriously, you don't get out of it alive"
Trying to understand all the option and waiver rules
will make you demented before your time.
My advice is to just enjoy the game….
"I've never complained about it. I'm thankful to have a jersey." Mark DeRosa, 22 Aug 2007
PTBNL?
Can Roberts be the PTBNL? ;-)
by Dave in the basement on Jan 30, 2009 12:41 PM CST reply actions
Sure
if Hill goes 20-0 and is the leagues Cy Young winner. Why not.
"You can't take life to seriously, you don't get out of it alive"
Only 20-0 and a Cy Young?
Knowing what Andy MacPhail has wanted for Roberts in the past, it might have to be 30-0 and an MVP.
"I see great things in baseball. It's our game - the American game." - Walt Whitman
And
a triple crown
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
And a 30 HR-30 SB season
MacPhail’s not going to give up TPWSNBN for nothing …
Team Speed Kills. All SEC, all the time.
I already made this joke...
…but I guess great Dave’s think alike.
We are a fever ... we are a fever ... we ain't born typical.
We derive our brillance from our sump pumps.
We are a fever ... we are a fever ... we ain't born typical.
I know, you guys are right...
It is revisionist history, and overall, Hendry does a good job. But boy, it gets frustrating seeing us holding onto our “prized prospects” just a year too long in many cases and watching them spoil.
Like who?
Pie is about the only recent “hot” prospect we’ve held onto. Hill was not simply a prospect; he had succeeded at the Major League level and his ‘potential’ was not lost to a predictable occurence. The Cubs really haven’t had many “prized prospects.” Would you have enjoyed watching us jettison Soto?
Free Ronny Cedeno
Certainly not...
I think it’s frustration of seeing so few of our position prospects pan out. Save for soto and probably Theriot, name a position prospect that’s worked out. You start wishing we’d trade all of em for something before other teams find out they can’t play.
Hill? I know, who saw this coming? But to think we could have had Roberts just one year earlier centered around Hill and Pie, and we trade them to the SAME TEAM this year for almost nothing! I guess I shouldn’t blame Hendry- it’s just frustrating and sad, that’s all.
Maybe the PTBNL
is… TTTSNBN
I haz blurg: hotbeans.wordpress.com
by digitalbenjamin on Jan 30, 2009 2:23 PM CST reply actions
See BCB Dictionary...
also, I’m now in the mood for a BLT
I haz blurg: hotbeans.wordpress.com
by digitalbenjamin on Feb 2, 2009 10:40 AM CST up reply actions
TTTSNBN = The Trade That Shall Not Be Named
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
Ok
has he been dealt or is this a rumor? lol
SORIANO! YESSSSSSSS! JIMBO!!!
As of now, it's still just a rumor, although...
… it seems as if it has to wait only for MacPhail to clear a 40-man roster spot.
Then again, knowing how fast Andy works, that could take six months.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
I will go out on a limb
and guess somehow that roster spot will be linked to BR a few hundred times
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
I like Rich
and wish things would have worked out better for him as A Cub. Hope things work out for him.
orioles
nothing for nothing basically.maybe hill and pie will figure it out in baltimore.we would have lost both guys on waivers anyways.maybe mcphail will remember us down the line if these guys excell.
I'm not certain that he's done . . .
And I would love to see him get that curveball going again, because it was a beautiful thing to watch.
But the Cubs didn’t have a place for a pitcher that needs to have his head straightened out. He couldn’t go back to the minors and they weren’t going to get anything for him other than a PTBNL no matter to whom they traded him.
Folks, it’s time to realize that we are now (or at least are trying to be) annual contenders, not a team that has a good year or two, fades into obscurity, rebuilds and then has another good year or two. This is what teams like the Red Sox, Yankees, 1990s-era Braves, etc do: When a player becomes a “project,” they trade him.
The Cubs don’t have time for projects any more. You get your chance(s) in the majors, and if it doesn’t work it’s time to move on. That takes parting with some guys who show flashes of brilliance from time to time, but this is what we should want: A team that expects every man on the roster to prove his worth.
Team Speed Kills. All SEC, all the time.
This is just not true.
The Red Sox took on Aardsma. They took on Choi. The Yankees took on Betemit and now Swisher.
The fact of the matter is that we have chosen NOT to be an annual contender, trading projects with upside for what we think will make victory in the short-term most likely. We have traded the future to tighten our window to win in the next two years.
I said after the sweep, and I’ll say it again – a team that puts its faith in players, instead of demanding they show their worth in 4 games is the kind of team that will inspire its players to greatness when greatness is needed. Instead, we’ve had a bunch of workmen, just doing their jobs, the jobs they earned after all, and understanding far too well, that sometimes you just get cold.
The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.
Really?
I see it just the other way. Last year’s team cared too much, wanted to inspire itself to greatness too much, that I think they got too tight in the division series vs. the Dodgers.
Maybe what they need is workmen. That seems to have been the operative word this offseason in acquisitions.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
Odd that we see things so differently;
You watched them live, though, so I’ll defer to you a little. The one thing I’d say, though, about Bradley, is that he’s not my view of a workman and a lot more of a live wire.
The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.
True enough on Bradley.
But remember, he’s primarily here because he hits lefthanded, and that’s what Lou wanted.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
I don't know about that.
Of all the LH sluggers available, Bradley is not the most left-handed, meaning, his splits against pitchers LHP v. RHP are like a right-handed hitter; they’re particularly strong splits, too, stronger than our other RH hitters’ splits. I think Bradley fit a number of things they wanted – a guy to stand in the LH hitters’ box, a capable defender, and a firey presence.
The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.
by DGU on Feb 1, 2009 5:41 AM CST up reply actions
are his splits
different from the others due to being a switch hitter?
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
I don't know.
I just know that in 2008 he was
.309/.415/.514 v. RHP
.341/.476/.651 v. LHP
and that his career splits show a similar split. And in 2008, the average RH hitter in the AL had less of a split than Milton did.
This isn’t a knock against Milton – it’s just who he is as a hitter.
The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.
by DGU on Feb 1, 2009 1:01 PM CST up reply actions
Both of those sets of splits are good...
… meaning he doesn’t have to be platooned, just given the occasional off day.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
Right
I just find it ironic that our new LH hitters have splits like RH hitters. We may have simultaneously gotten more LH and worse at hitting RH pitchers.
The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.
by DGU on Feb 1, 2009 6:38 PM CST up reply actions
fiery
Completely agree, we need a firecracker in our lineup, and Bradley is that. I saw no fire in the team that got swept. Except Lee after he struck out AGAIN (or is that as usual?) in LA. It took him 3 games of futility to get fired up? WTF? And nothing out of anyone else. I like Milton’s attitude.
Check out my Cubs shrine: http://picasaweb.google.com/vegascubfan/CubsRooms#
I don't know that I would call Swisher a "project"
And Betemit had a 110 OPS+ with the Dodgers the year the Yankees got him — so, again, not really a “project.” The Sox weren’t trying to turn Aardsma into a starter (to my knowledge) and Choi hasn’t seen the majors with Boston. Remember — we can’t hide Hill in the minors without taking a chance that some team will scoop him up for nothing.
I think it’s fine to put your faith in players — if they execute and maintain. Hill didn’t maintain.
Team Speed Kills. All SEC, all the time.
IF
I think it’s fine to put your faith in players — if they execute and maintain.
Ugh. This is precisely what I’m talking about. You aren’t “putting faith in players” if you only do it while they are performing. Putting faith in a player is what Boston did when they stuck with Dustin Pedroia, what Cleveland did when they stuck with first Fausto Carmona and then Cliff Lee.
Wilson Betemit had lost his playing time in LA; he has been a project now his entire career.
The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.
by DGU on Feb 2, 2009 3:23 PM CST up reply actions
So you keep faith in your players regardless?
Explain this, please. Do you never give up on a guy? I’m trying to figure this out. At some point, a player either is or isn’t MLB-caliber. People can legitimately debate whether Player X is or isn’t that caliber and has or hasn’t gotten a fair chance. But there has to come a time when you determine whether the player meets the team’s need.
Otherwise, why make any changes at all? Just keep the ball club you have. That’s the logical extension of your argument.
And what, exactly, are you talking about with your examples? After 89 AB in 2006, Pedroia hit .317/.380./442 in 2007; Carmona went 19-8 with a 3.01 ERA and 1.21 WHIP in his second season; Cliff Lee has won 14 or more games every time he’s started at least 30. None of those players had the kind of extended slump Rich Hill did. And even if they did, that’s not in and of itself a reason for keeping Rich Hill, because Rich Hill is not Dustin Pedroia, Fausto Carmona or Cliff Lee — he’s Rich Hill, and must be judged on his own merits.
Hill is 28 years old. He was drafted six years ago. The Cubs have given him plenty of time. The likelihood that any player is going to magically get better at 28 is pretty slim — Cliff Lee was 25 the first time he had a 14-win season and didn’t again win fewer games than that until he was 28; Carmona and Pedroia were 24 LAST SEASON.
No matter how much you like a player, at some point, you have to give up on them.
Otherwise, Corey Patterson would still be in CF. In August, he turned 28 years old.
Team Speed Kills. All SEC, all the time.
A third of a season is a fair shot.
In some cases you can tell well before then, while in others you’ll want to give the guy more time – sometimes a full season.
Take a closer look at these examples.
50+ games into his ML career, with 166 PAs, Pedroia was “hitting” .184/.271/.272.
Carmona had 75 innings, mostly as a reliever, under his belt with an ERA over 5, when they decided to let him start that glorious second season.
Cliff Lee didn’t get to start 30 games in 2007 because he was worse than Rich Hill and was sent to the minors.
I don’t believe in Rich Hill. I have no problem with the organization discarding him. I’m not talking about Hill. I’m talking about the mistaken idea that the way to “win now” is to discard struggling young players.
The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.
by DGU on Feb 2, 2009 7:06 PM CST up reply actions
depends who you replace them with, doesn't it?
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Yes and no
I’ve made the case that a player you believed in when others didn’t (take Ryan Dempster as an example) is more motivated to rise to the occassion for his team than a mercenary you pay what he is owed for past performance (take Alfonso Soriano as an example).
The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.
At what point in Dempster's Cubs' career did you consider him a "struggling young player"?
In general though, I think you’re going to be wrong when you say something like
I’m talking about the mistaken idea that the way to “win now” is to discard struggling young players.
and you mean that in an absolute, definitive way, i.e. all the time. You can cherrypick examples left and right to prove or disprove lines of thought like that. I’m sure for every Fausto, Dustin, and Cliff, there’s also going to be a Larry, Curly, and Moe.
And even if you get yourself in the right situation, i.e. Lou’s lit a fire under a struggling young player who then gets motivated and starts to turn things around, it does you no good if this newfound production is still less than what you’d be getting out of a mercenary. You should know that more than most – haven’t you in the past posted the hypothetical moral dilemma of the Cubs signing Barry Bonds?
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
A few things
1. It does no good to wish and hope that Matt Murton can out-perform Alfonso Soriano. Murton doesn’t have the tools to do it. So, I’m not arguing for that.
2. I have no problem with the decision that while Ronny Cedeno may have the tools, he’s just too inconsistent and unmotivated to make the faith investment in.
3. I have a well documented problem with deciding to bench Felix Pie, who had the tools and had the motivation, to give more playing time to a better-defending Matt Murton (RJ).
People say, “We have to ‘win now’ so we don’t have the luxury of giving Pie 8 weeks to sort things out.” And yet ,the fact of the matter is that winning teams pick the right guys to trust. Winning teams also choose the wrong guys – see SD’s Barfield. Maybe the Cubs knew Pie better than we did and made the right decision not to trust him – we’ll see soon enough. But the general idea that you “don’t have the time” is where I disagree quite a bit. The season lasts half a year for a reason.
As for Demp – he was injured and not looking too good when we signed him, and then again no one else believed in him when we made him a starter. If we go down that same path with Aaron Heilman, that’s a good risk to take, I think. Even if I don’t personally believe in Heilman, I’ll still be glad the Cubs give him the chance.
The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.
by DGU on Feb 3, 2009 7:22 AM CST up reply actions
People say, "We have to ‘win now’ so we don’t have the luxury of giving Pie 8 weeks to sort things out."
I hate hearing that, IMO every team should be trying to “WIN NOW” even if building for the future, still need to win, right?
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
I've said it before, I'm sure I'll say it again
if you’re not already, you should be a politician or a lawyer… ;-)
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
I'm not talking as a general rule, I was talking about Rich Hill
By the time Cliff Lee struggled in 2007, he had a track record as a successful major league starter. Carmona and Pedroia had turned things around by their second season or so in the big leagues. Again, pick and choose all you want — they were given the opportunity, and they peformed.
I won’t necessarily argue with you that Felix Pie wasn’t given much of a chance, because I think that’s a fair debate. But the Cubs did work with him an awful lot, from solo instruction time and winter ball and everything else they could think of — and he never learned how to consistently hit major-league pitching. Might he someday? Sure.
Here’s the thing about “winning now”: The Cubs’ window is closing. D-Lee already looks like he’s beginning to age a bit. Soriano is not the offensive force he once was. Even the “new” acquisition, Milton Bradley, a guy I’m glad we picked up, doesn’t have too many more years in him. And I’m still afraid of the fact that Aramis Ramirez might opt out one day and mean it.
That means, in a few years, the Cubs are guaranteed to have: Z, Shark, Marshall, Theriot, Fontenot, Geo, an aging Soriano and maybe an aging Lee. (This assumes none of them are traded.) You need a lot more than Felix Pie to make that a championship caliber team.
The Cubs aren’t just dumping random young players out of the minors. They are selectively getting rid of guys who didn’t work out in Chicago and are running low or are already out of options.
Team Speed Kills. All SEC, all the time.
The window was closing
until Geo stepped up. Had the Cubs been able to incorporate Geo and Pie the window would have widened.
Again to Boston… as Lowell and Ortiz age, Pedroia and Ellsbury are given their chances.
I think it’s so hard to win the crapshoot of the playoffs that your best strategy to win is to widen your window of opportunity, not go all-in on a two-year shot. But I hope Jim Hendry and the 2009 Cubs show me up and win it all.
The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.
by DGU on Feb 3, 2009 8:46 PM CST up reply actions
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Cubs By The Numbers
Cubs By The Numbers is a history of the ballclub by uniform number, but the biographies help trace the history of our beloved team in a new way. For everyone who's a Cubs fan, anyone who ever wore the uniform is like family. Cubs By The Numbers reintroduces readers to some of their long-lost ancestors, even ones they think they already know.
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Big League Stew - MLB - Yahoo! Sports
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- The Cardinals Hall of Fame can now be found at Bill Clinton’s library in Arkansas (Huh?)
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