Crowded Bullpen Situation
by dmlichte on Jan 6, 2009 4:02 PM CST
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PrintWith the trade of Marquis and the acquisition of Vizcaino, there are a lot of arms battling it out for the bullpen.
Obviously the #5 starter situation is in question at the moment, but leaving that out of the equation, here are the bullpen candidates
LH: Marshall and Cotts
RH: Ascaino, Gaudin, Gregg, Guzman, Hart, Marmol, Patton, Samardzija, Stevens, Wuertz, Vizcaino. Guys like Wells are unlikely to get much consideration.
With Rich Harden's inconsistency there are going to be seven relievers.
Certain to make the bullpen are Gaudin, Gregg, and Marmol.
Vizcanio is there, too, unless he's dealt. IMO, he has a nice track record and could be a valuable addition.
Samardzija and Marshall will both be on the team, the question is whether they'll be relievers or starters.
The interesting situation is the LOOGY and while Neal Cotts likely is the candidate, I'd much rather have Michael Wuertz there. Wuertz doesn't get enough credit and he is very inconsistent, however his numbers against lefties have been very good, especially over the last three seasons. I have little use for Cotts, who has a poor major league track record. Wuertz, if not utilized, should have some real trade value.
Ascanio, Hart and Guzman will likely get an extended look but appear to be crowded out. Patton would seem to have a hard time sticking on a contending team.
I think at this point in time, I'd prefer to have Marshall in the rotation. IMO its time to see what the Cubs have in Marshall who could be a nice middle of the rotation starter. Gaudin could be that swing man.
Then working from the 9th inning back the Cubs have
- Marmol in closer situation
- Gregg, Vizcaino and Samardzija setting up
- Gaudin and one other righty cleaning up
- Wuertz as the LOOGY.
I'm actually fairly satisfied with the bullpen as is. The Cubs did take a step backwards in the 8th inning situation but as a whole, there are several good arms. With as difficult as relief arms are to predict and relievers coming on out of nowhere, I could see Gaudin, Vizcaino and Wuertz providing a lot of stability to the pen.
Other bullpen thoughts?
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
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The Shark...
… may not make the team.
My 2008 Christmas wish list includes this jersey. In Hendry We Trust!
Might be sent to AAA
to further develop as a starter….
"When two Whales Fight, many Shrimp Die" - Korean Proverb
by TheRiot Police on Jan 6, 2009 4:07 PM CST up reply actions
Have Him Start The Year...
… in AAA starting, then bring him up for injury (pitching depth) and/or September call up.
My 2008 Christmas wish list includes this jersey. In Hendry We Trust!
That's a real possibility...
… or, he could wind up making the team as a starter, pushing Marshall to the bullpen and someone else out — likely by trade.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
Guzman Is In The 'Pen...
… not only does Piniella love his power arm, but he likely can’t start due to his recent TJS.
Also, he’s out of options.
My 2008 Christmas wish list includes this jersey. In Hendry We Trust!
I agree with Lou on this one
I think Guzman could be a serious beast.
The worst beer I had was pretty good.
Power Pitching is KING!
I haz blurg: hotbeans.wordpress.com
by digitalbenjamin on Jan 6, 2009 4:43 PM CST up reply actions
the off-season
was a team effort. Or lack of it.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on Jan 7, 2009 11:35 AM CST up reply actions
Cotts has a better ML track record than Wuertz...
Vizcaino will be traded. There is no room for Hart.
Jimmyeatworld
How do you figure?
Wuertz has a better career ERA, WHIP and BAA.
Against lefties for their careers Cotts has a better WHIP while Wuertz has a better BAA.
Cotts is not good… at all. He has had one year where he had a sub 4 ERA, in 2005 with the Sox. His numbers last year were okay. Beyond that his major league career numbers are really quite bad.
Wuertz has been up and down his entire ML career...
Cotts has been up and down as well since ’05, but he at least had a “lights out” year, pitched in the postseason, and the WS- and pitched well. Wuertz has never been counted on in a tight spot in an important game. So, when it comes to a more proven track record in the MLs, Cotts has it over Wuertz.
Jimmyeatworld
by Jimmyeatworld on Jan 6, 2009 4:26 PM CST up reply actions
ok...
in your opinion you’d go with Cotts, but when actually looking at statistics Wuertz is significantly better than Cotts. Cotts has pitched 50 major league innings in the last two years whereas Wuertz has pitched 125. In every single statistic, ERA, BAA, WHIP, HR, K/BB Wuertz has a slight to significant edge.
You are staking Cotts being better than Wuertz because Cotts had a good year in 2005? Sorry, that just doesn’t work.
You said track record, not statistics...
I’m not staking anything. I simply don’t agree that Wuertz has a better ML track record than Cotts. Cotts’ numbers aren’t as good career wise as Wuertz’s, but stats don’t tell the whole story.
Jimmyeatworld
by Jimmyeatworld on Jan 6, 2009 4:37 PM CST up reply actions
and a track record is based..
…. in large part on stats. Cotts had a good year in 2005. Beyond that he’s been horrible. Wuertz has been very effective at times. Like most relievers, he has his difficulties. But based on their career numbers Wuertz is a better reliever.
That's how you define it.
I know a lot of people that don’t rely solely on stats. I do however agree that based on career numbers, Wuertz has better numbers, and this makes him a better reliever, numbers wise.
Jimmyeatworld
by Jimmyeatworld on Jan 6, 2009 4:44 PM CST up reply actions
and "the numbers" are what tell you which players are better than other players
playing wise.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jan 6, 2009 4:46 PM CST up reply actions
Oh, thanks for clearing that up SWL...
Jimmyeatworld
by Jimmyeatworld on Jan 6, 2009 4:47 PM CST up reply actions
All I'm saying is that if I had to go into a LOGGY situation...
I’d want Cotts, even with his numbers, over Wuertz, simply because he has been in important games in tough situations, and he is a lefty. In my opinion, Cotts may have inferior numbers than Wuertz, but I’d rather have Cotts.
Jimmyeatworld
by Jimmyeatworld on Jan 6, 2009 4:49 PM CST up reply actions
and I think the LH/RH thing is all too often taken to ridiculous levels...
where a manager (when given the choice between a LH/RH pitcher) will often base his choice on the handedness of the batter rather than just putting the better of the two pitchers into the game.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jan 6, 2009 4:55 PM CST up reply actions
It seemed to me that somewhere along the way
Wuertz lost his “stuff,” meaning, well… his slider.
Doesn’t seem to have any bite anymore. For a pitcher who leaned so heavily on a single pitch, I don’t really trust him anymore.
http://thegettinplace.blogspot.com/
Wuertz and Cotts had remarkably similiar numbers in '08.
Wuertz BAA and WHIP: .267 and 1.43 in 44.2 IP.
Cotts BAA and WHIP: .266 and 1.43 in 35.2 IP
In fact, that’s really weird – because I could’ve sworn Cotts pitched more innings than Wuertz.
Yes, yes ... winter is indeed a pond upon which all of us must skate, braving frostbite and runny noses in the hopes that our cars will start and we shan't embarass ourselves slipping on a patch of black ice. Spring is more a quagmire of cold mud and slush, and fall is a pile of fallen leaves that may or may not hide a pile of doggy doo-doo. But summer, ah summer is an oasis of endless green that disappears all too quickly beneath our feet as we rush through its warm, glorious bliss.
maybe it just seemed longer.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on Jan 7, 2009 11:37 AM CST up reply actions
TWSS
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jan 7, 2009 11:45 AM CST up reply actions
let me quote you what is in front of the Cubs
‘’We certainly wouldn’t close the door on anything,‘’ general manager Jim Hendry said when asked about the desire to replace the starting pitcher he might lose in a trade. ’’Once we add the outfielder we want to add, we’ll take a good look where we’re at. The pen is getting deeper and deeper. We’ll see how we want to shape up the starting situation, whether we pursue somebody else or use somebody internally in that role.’’
Cubs now are saying they have a stable of arms available to be viewed or used to acquire to improve their club…
Piniella: "This is a tougher job than I thought it would be, I'm going to be honest with you."
Great Situation...
… to be in.
My 2008 Christmas wish list includes this jersey. In Hendry We Trust!
I'd Go With...
[assuming there’s 7]:
(1) Marshall
(2) Gaudin
(3) Marmol (closer)
(4) Guzman
(5) Gregg (setup, occassional closer)
(6) Cotts
(7) veteran acquisition
Wuertz is traded, as he’s out of options.
Marshall is in there because Harden is our 5th starter. ;-)
My 2008 Christmas wish list includes this jersey. In Hendry We Trust!
If Hart makes the club we're in serious trouble.
Marshall’s the 5th starter, then….
Marmol, Gaudin, Cotts, Gregg, Shark, Guzman, and probably either Weurtz/Viscaino.
I may be in the minority, but that’s a decent pen. Experience, live arms, and a beast of a closer.
Whoever said you can't mix business with pleasure never owned a PuttPutt course---Andy Bernard
If I Can Count...
… there’s 39 guys on the 40-man roster, right?
My 2008 Christmas wish list includes this jersey. In Hendry We Trust!
Actually...
… with Bradley, we are at 40. So, we are blocked at signing another FA unless we start the DFA’s…
My 2008 Christmas wish list includes this jersey. In Hendry We Trust!
More likely,
a trade would be made.
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on Jan 6, 2009 4:47 PM CST up reply actions
You Walked Right Where I Was Hoping...
… do I smell a Peavy trade? ;-)
My 2008 Christmas wish list includes this jersey. In Hendry We Trust!
unlikely.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jan 6, 2009 6:01 PM CST up reply actions
Gordo is "reporting" that a Peavy trade...
…could still happen. Vague, hard-to-substantiate quote:
And those close to Hendry expect him to restart the Peavy talks with the San Diego Padres that broke down a month ago at the winter meetings.
Of course, he also states that Kevin Hart and Angel Guzman are possibilities for the starting rotation.
Yes, yes ... winter is indeed a pond upon which all of us must skate, braving frostbite and runny noses in the hopes that our cars will start and we shan't embarass ourselves slipping on a patch of black ice. Spring is more a quagmire of cold mud and slush, and fall is a pile of fallen leaves that may or may not hide a pile of doggy doo-doo. But summer, ah summer is an oasis of endless green that disappears all too quickly beneath our feet as we rush through its warm, glorious bliss.
As I wrote in another thread...
…. Wittenmyer has been known to make stuff up before. I think this is another case of that.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
Yeah, I'd really like to know...
…who “those close to Hendry” are. Cell phone repair crews? Airline stewardesses? Starbucks barristas?
Yes, yes ... winter is indeed a pond upon which all of us must skate, braving frostbite and runny noses in the hopes that our cars will start and we shan't embarass ourselves slipping on a patch of black ice. Spring is more a quagmire of cold mud and slush, and fall is a pile of fallen leaves that may or may not hide a pile of doggy doo-doo. But summer, ah summer is an oasis of endless green that disappears all too quickly beneath our feet as we rush through its warm, glorious bliss.
I'd rather have a true lefty specialist...
than to use Wuertz in that role. Though I agree – Cotts is no lefty specialist.
Cotts specilizes in stuff....
like BB…and ER.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jan 6, 2009 4:29 PM CST up reply actions
Doesn't LOOGY stand for...
…“left-handed one out guy”? If so, how could Wuertz be a LOOGY? Plus, his career splits against lefties are a little worse than those against righties. He’s also faced RHH much more often than LHH.
Yes, yes ... winter is indeed a pond upon which all of us must skate, braving frostbite and runny noses in the hopes that our cars will start and we shan't embarass ourselves slipping on a patch of black ice. Spring is more a quagmire of cold mud and slush, and fall is a pile of fallen leaves that may or may not hide a pile of doggy doo-doo. But summer, ah summer is an oasis of endless green that disappears all too quickly beneath our feet as we rush through its warm, glorious bliss.
Wuertz Acts As a LOOGY...
… but by definition, he isn’t.
My 2008 Christmas wish list includes this jersey. In Hendry We Trust!
yup
LOOGYs are lefties but the point is that Wuertz can fulfill the same role as a LOOGY. Yes, he career splits against lefties are a bit worse but in the last three years, his numbers against lefties are pretty darn solid.
The point being that if the Cubs are looking for a reliever who can face tough lefties, they could look to Wuertz.
His numbers are solid...
but not quite what I’d look for from a LOOGY. When I think LOOGY, I think “this guy comes in and will get the big LH bat out.” Wuertz has done pretty well overall against lefties, and I’d rather use him in that role than Cotts, but I’d still rather get someone more suited to the role, if possible.
Sounds reasonable.
I know Wuertz has been a somewhat underrated reliever. Overall, his numbers really aren’t bad at all. He just always seems to give up walks at the worst possible times, and I get the impression he’s not one of Lou’s guys.
Yes, yes ... winter is indeed a pond upon which all of us must skate, braving frostbite and runny noses in the hopes that our cars will start and we shan't embarass ourselves slipping on a patch of black ice. Spring is more a quagmire of cold mud and slush, and fall is a pile of fallen leaves that may or may not hide a pile of doggy doo-doo. But summer, ah summer is an oasis of endless green that disappears all too quickly beneath our feet as we rush through its warm, glorious bliss.
Will Ohman
I believe he’s still available… and last I heard he was looking for a 3-year/$15M deal.
I agree with your assessment but where the Cubs are with money and what relievers are commanding on the open market, I just don’t see it happening. Perhaps someone like Guardado could be signed (though his injury history would concern me). If a LOOGY could be signed, I do believe the Cubs could put together a nice trade package with one or two of these relievers that would have some value to another team.
Overall, though, I just don’t see this being somewhere that Hendry spends money. With that in mind, I’d prefer to have Marshall in the rotation (his numbers versus lefties are less than dominant) and Cotts off the Cubs payroll.
Ah, the Human Scowl.
He actually had a pretty decent year for Atlanta. And I did see his name on free agent list recently. I’d be a little surprised to see Hendry bring him back, though.
Yes, yes ... winter is indeed a pond upon which all of us must skate, braving frostbite and runny noses in the hopes that our cars will start and we shan't embarass ourselves slipping on a patch of black ice. Spring is more a quagmire of cold mud and slush, and fall is a pile of fallen leaves that may or may not hide a pile of doggy doo-doo. But summer, ah summer is an oasis of endless green that disappears all too quickly beneath our feet as we rush through its warm, glorious bliss.
not gonna happen
I’d be shocked if Hendry went after him… the point was more to point out what relievers are asking for.
NFW
wasn’t it he that Lou was so PO’d about early in 2007 about throwing 35-40’ curve balls in the dirt?
Sweet Lou for Mayor in '11.
Yup, that was him.
He seemed to do better in Atlanta.
Yes, yes ... winter is indeed a pond upon which all of us must skate, braving frostbite and runny noses in the hopes that our cars will start and we shan't embarass ourselves slipping on a patch of black ice. Spring is more a quagmire of cold mud and slush, and fall is a pile of fallen leaves that may or may not hide a pile of doggy doo-doo. But summer, ah summer is an oasis of endless green that disappears all too quickly beneath our feet as we rush through its warm, glorious bliss.
Craig Breslow
Could we work out a trade with Minnesota for him? He had a pretty good year last season (stats)
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
actually watch for some low roster activity
NYMets still need to build their bullpen and something like Vizcaino and Wuertz could go to NYMets for Pedro Feliciano (LOOGY) who is arbitration eligible and due a raise to $2.5M where Cubs two players. Another trading of Cedeno and Pie would offer another $1M or so thus putting $3.5M with the cushion of $5.5M left in the budget allowing $9M to work with either now or during the season.
This reduces the payroll liabilities by $2.5M allowing them to make another trade. One player available is Seattle’s Erik Bedard who is arbitration eligible for the final year and settled for $7M last year but was injured and had shoulder surgery which turned out to be a cyst and not the labium, that said in 2007 Bedard was the best pitcher in the AL. If Bedard is not traded before April he will be traded by Aug 1st.
There are other opportunities out there look to Pittsburgh, KC, Minn or AZ .
Piniella: "This is a tougher job than I thought it would be, I'm going to be honest with you."
That's what I'm looking for
With regards to the 23rd-25th spots on the active roster, I’d expect some turnover. With players who are out of options (Wuertz, Pie) or have had spots taken (Cedeno), the Cubs have chips to trade.
If they want a LOOGY, I’m sure they can put together something. Bedard would be very intriguing, but I don’t know what Seattle would want – some high-end prospects, I’d imagine, so this way they can claim they got something for Bedard.
Mahay would probably be available from KC for the right price, as would Grabow from Pittsburgh.
Dennis Reyes is another LOOGY who is a FA, and his numbers are better than Cotts’.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
He's a RAALOOGY
Righty Acting As a Left-Handed One Out Guy
I haz blurg: hotbeans.wordpress.com
by digitalbenjamin on Jan 6, 2009 4:45 PM CST up reply actions
Radiology, what?
Yes, yes ... winter is indeed a pond upon which all of us must skate, braving frostbite and runny noses in the hopes that our cars will start and we shan't embarass ourselves slipping on a patch of black ice. Spring is more a quagmire of cold mud and slush, and fall is a pile of fallen leaves that may or may not hide a pile of doggy doo-doo. But summer, ah summer is an oasis of endless green that disappears all too quickly beneath our feet as we rush through its warm, glorious bliss.
Actually
It’s something you hock…. Can we hock Wuertz for anything??
by LT on Jan 6, 2009 8:32 PM CST up reply actions
We can certainly knock Weurtz for something
"Who's Bob Brenly? The guy that used to be the manager for Arizona?" ~ Alfonso Guilleard Soriano
Does Anyone Know...
… what happened to Carmen Pignatiello?
He’s no longer on the 40-man.
My 2008 Christmas wish list includes this jersey. In Hendry We Trust!
we may have a stable of arms
but we dont have 1 single dominant lefty and were gonna need one badly IMO. cotts and marshall are good in certain situations but for those gut wrenching, on the edge of your seats games—we need our definite 7,8,9th inning guys. year after year teams like the angels win game after game like that. I want beimel and I think it can be done with some creative salary dumping. you give me a gregg then beimel then marmol and I guarantee a monster season. We got 2-3 starters that are better fitted for 6 innings. If we can get a dominant trio behind them it will not only save our starters arms for october but add alot of cubbie swagger. I am not comfortable whatsoever with our bullpen right now. quantity doesnt equal quality.
Dear Santa:: All I want for X-mas this year is an official 2009 Jake Peavy Cubs Jersey. Oh and a Beimel one too. I've been a real good guy for the most part!!!
if we make no more changes
then this will be our rotation/bullpen:
Starters
1. Zambrano
2. Dempster
3. Lilly
4. Harden
5. Marshall
Bullpen:
Marmol
Gregg
Vizcanio
Guzman
Gaudin
Cotts
Stevens
Shark will start in Iowa as a starter to stretch him out…
Yeah, I could see this happening.
Yes, yes ... winter is indeed a pond upon which all of us must skate, braving frostbite and runny noses in the hopes that our cars will start and we shan't embarass ourselves slipping on a patch of black ice. Spring is more a quagmire of cold mud and slush, and fall is a pile of fallen leaves that may or may not hide a pile of doggy doo-doo. But summer, ah summer is an oasis of endless green that disappears all too quickly beneath our feet as we rush through its warm, glorious bliss.
Bullpen
Marmol (closer), Gregg, Gaudin, Cotts, Vizcaino are locks. I’m guessing Guzman nails down another spot and that it is wide open competition for the final spot. My bet is Jeff Spellcheck starts 2009 at Triple A Iowa.
I agree.
I’m still rolling with the theory that Lou will give Samardzija a chance at a rotation spot during spring training as a pretense for sending him down to Triple A. When the team is getting ready to break camp, Lou will say, “Look, son, you’ve got the stuff to be a starting pitcher, but you still need to work on a few things. Let’s send you to Iowa, get you stretched out and start working on those secondary pitches.”
Call it the Marshall plan – just as Sean Marshall was last season, the Shark will be used as rotation insurance in case of an injury and may be called up later in the season to bolster the pen, if necessary. Or I could be completely wrong.
Yes, yes ... winter is indeed a pond upon which all of us must skate, braving frostbite and runny noses in the hopes that our cars will start and we shan't embarass ourselves slipping on a patch of black ice. Spring is more a quagmire of cold mud and slush, and fall is a pile of fallen leaves that may or may not hide a pile of doggy doo-doo. But summer, ah summer is an oasis of endless green that disappears all too quickly beneath our feet as we rush through its warm, glorious bliss.
why not keep marshall in the pen
and make a move for jon garland? i feel like he could be an affordable option, maybe in the range of 2 yr/$12-16 mil. hes a solid starter and always liked chicago.
Interesting idea.
I’m not sure there’s room in the budget for that kind of deal, though.
Yes, yes ... winter is indeed a pond upon which all of us must skate, braving frostbite and runny noses in the hopes that our cars will start and we shan't embarass ourselves slipping on a patch of black ice. Spring is more a quagmire of cold mud and slush, and fall is a pile of fallen leaves that may or may not hide a pile of doggy doo-doo. But summer, ah summer is an oasis of endless green that disappears all too quickly beneath our feet as we rush through its warm, glorious bliss.
I Think We Have Room In...
… the 2009 budget still.
At last check, we’re at 137. We can still move about $5M if we needed to. $13M remains if we go to $145 this year…
My 2008 Christmas wish list includes this jersey. In Hendry We Trust!
Just goes to show Hendry is not yet done trying to deal
This very topic tells me he’s trying to land another player. Look at all those names in that list. Plus it may give Jimbo just enough leverage so he would NOT have to include Marshall in a deal.
Since the lineup appears more set now with MB on board and the fact its like getting a root canal dealing with the O’s for you-know-who, I have to guess he’s gonna try to pry Peavy away from the Pads once [if] the new ownership gives the OK to make a big hike in the 2010+ payroll.
I certainly hope the Pads ownership situation takes just looooooong enough so the Cubs rotation will look like this: Z, Harden, Demp, Lilly, Peavy (Marshall for backup).
Sweet Lou for Mayor in '11.
Peavy isn't going anywhere
San Diego doesn’t have urgent need to move him, hence they won’t. Not when teams are unwilling to meet their high asking price. Something tells me Jake Peavy is still wearing a San Diego uniform in a few years.
You don't think they'll take another stab at moving him midseason?
Yes, yes ... winter is indeed a pond upon which all of us must skate, braving frostbite and runny noses in the hopes that our cars will start and we shan't embarass ourselves slipping on a patch of black ice. Spring is more a quagmire of cold mud and slush, and fall is a pile of fallen leaves that may or may not hide a pile of doggy doo-doo. But summer, ah summer is an oasis of endless green that disappears all too quickly beneath our feet as we rush through its warm, glorious bliss.
No, because...
… when their ownership changes, there’s no urgency to cut the payroll.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
No Plans for Vizcaino
I think this trade was more for a salary dump than to strengthen the bullpen. The Cubs have too many other guy’s in the bullpen that are much more effective than Vizcaino.
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