Some Thoughts For 2010: Cubs vs. Diamondbacks Preview, Friday 10/2, 1:20 CT
by Al Yellon on Oct 2, 2009 11:30 AM CDT
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We have, at times this season, debated whether the Cubs should have traded Mark DeRosa and whether he would have helped the club through its various injuries and lack of production. I don't want to rekindle anything... oh, what the heck. Yes, I do.
During last night's rain delay, the Tribune's Paul Sullivan asked various Cubs, including Aramis Ramirez, Ryan Dempster, Carlos Zambrano and Ted Lilly, what their wish lists are for 2010. Though all of them made good points -- and I think Dempster's wish of upgrading the facilities will come true, though maybe not for another year -- Lilly's were telling:
Lilly's wish is for the Cubs to re-sign Reed Johnson, who becomes a free agent in November. But he also said it would be prudent to consider bringing back Mark DeRosa, who left a void in the clubhouse when he was traded to the Indians last winter.
"I love Mark as a player, a person, a clubhouse guy," Lilly said. "I could say he's probably the best teammate I've ever had. All around, he really cares a great deal about everybody, and that's the kind of person he is. I think he also leads by example -- the way he plays. He's a special individual."
"The best teammate I've ever had". This, from someone who played more than two years for the Yankees when they were playing in World Series every year and had guys like Paul O'Neill and Scott Brosius, reputed to be great team leaders, not to mention Derek Jeter, Jorge Posada and Mariano Rivera, all class acts and fine players. Ted says DeRo was "the best teammate I've ever had".
Now. Mark DeRosa is going to be 35 years old in February and hasn't produced this year as he did in his two Cub seasons -- although, that is partly due to a wrist injury he suffered in his first week with the Cardinals, plus his career numbers at Busch Stadium (.182/.251/.315 in 200 career AB) are pretty bad; compare that to the .305/.394/.464 he posted in 528 lifetime AB at Wrigley Field, neither of which can be dismissed as "small sample size". The Cubs could do worse than signing DeRosa to play right field or second base or a combination thereof, even if they have to have him share time with other players. For the right price -- I would NOT overpay -- I would be delighted to have Mark DeRosa back in Cubs uniform #7 in 2010.
Let the flaming -- or cheerleading -- begin.
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NOTE: Tom Gorzelanny's stats below are with the Cubs only. See the pitcher box above for his full-season stats.
The last time a player named Bill Buckner appeared at Wrigley Field was May 24, 1984, when the former Cubs first baseman pinch-hit (and popped out) in the first game of a doubleheader against the Braves, just before he was traded to the Red Sox. This Billy Buckner, no relation, has never started against the Cubs (he made one relief appearance against them on July 23, 2008 in Phoenix). He has actually been fairly decent since he returned to the Arizona rotation in September (3.86 ERA in five starts, although he has also posted a 1.35 WHIP).
Tom Gorzelanny is slowly putting together a good record that he can bring to next spring training with a real chance to make the 2010 rotation. He has made six starts for the Cubs, going at least five innings in five of them (and getting pounded by the Rockies in the other one). His combined numbers as a starter: 28.2 IP, 28 H, 13 ER, 9 BB, 33 K, 4 HR, 4.13 ERA, 1.31 WHIP. Not bad, and if you throw out the one horrendous start, the other five are decent-to-outstanding. He has made three career starts vs. Arizona (1-0, 3.15). Stephen Drew (3-for-10) and Justin Upton (3-for-6, a HR) have hit him well in small sample sizes.
Today's game is on WGN and FSN Arizona. For other games today see the MLB.com Mediacenter.
Baseball-reference.com game preview
Please visit our SB Nation Diamondbacks site AZ Snakepit. Jim, the proprietor, is a good guy and runs a well-done site. And he's originally from England.
Overflow comment threads will post again today at 2:15 and 3:15 pm CDT, although last night's had a combined five comments.
Discuss amongst yourselves.
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Comments
first
Love DeRosa. Doubt he’ll be back. OK with that.
Billy Buckner still haunts Boston
a fact not overlooked by this rabid Red Sox basher.
DeRo… I still dream about those beautiful eyes of his. GET IT DONE JIM
"For the right price..."
I think that’s the problem. I don’t really have an issue of signing DeRosa to a reasonable contract, but I see the market for him exploding this off-season after the royal treatment he received from the media in Chicago.
by Shawn Domagal-Goldman on Oct 2, 2009 11:48 AM CDT reply actions
Maybe it was meant to be "personnel issues".
He’s helping a former Cubs right fielder pack up his Chicago apartment…
(sorry- cheap shot)
"Pain don't hurt you none" - Sparky Anderson (1987)
Obviously Sparky was never a Cubs fan...
Woo hoo!
Just got a job offer :D
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
Up here in Fargo
And outside of my industry, but the money’s decent, and I’ll learn a boatload.
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
congrats, Clutch. Good for you!
Some people say the glass is half empty, some say half full. I say, are you going to drink that?
by BleedsbluinMI on Oct 2, 2009 11:59 AM CDT up reply actions
congrats!
now let’s hope their servers will not block mlb.com and BCB and you will be ready to go!
"Truth hurts. Maybe not as much as jumping on a bicycle with the seat missing, but it hurts." - Leslie Nielson
There's a bit of travel involved
But it’s 4 10s, meaning 3-day weekends every weekend. I’ll join y’all then.
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
Good for U, Clutch
It seems that Fargo and ND in general are surviving the recession pretty well.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Oct 2, 2009 12:50 PM CDT up reply actions
Apparently, Bismarck is thriving
OTOH, Fargo >>> Bismarck
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
Agreed
I was in Fargo this summer and was surprised (and impressed) about how much it had changed, for the better, since I lived there in the late ’80s.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Oct 2, 2009 1:00 PM CDT up reply actions
Fargo connection
Who’da thunk it. Our company is not large, but we have an office in Fargo.
"When you're going through hell, keep going." - Winston Churchill
Cool
Fargo is well off the beaten path, but it’s a pretty nice city. Winters can be a real bear, though. Only place I’ve ever seen where it can be 100 degrees in July and minus-25 in January.
So if you have to go there for work someday, make sure it’s between March-June and August-October. :)
by Not Bruce Froemming on Oct 2, 2009 5:43 PM CDT up reply actions
It's one of my favorite stops
When I heard NDSU and SDSU were joining our conference, I wasn’t too keen on trips up there in February, but I really enjoy making the trip up there each year.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
I *do* think Hendry should and get a "DeRosa" though...
If not DeRosa himself, then someone like Chone Figgins (also likely overpriced) or Placido Polanco. I also think he will do this.
by Shawn Domagal-Goldman on Oct 2, 2009 11:50 AM CDT reply actions
I'm a big, big, big fan of Jeff Baker.
But it would be nice to have a LH utility guy to compliment him. I really had hoped Fontenot was going to be that guy, but he was a huge disappointment this season.
by Shawn Domagal-Goldman on Oct 2, 2009 11:54 AM CDT up reply actions
Baker, DeRo, Theriot, Blanco
Would we have any need for Fontenot or (shudder) Miles in that situation?
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
woah, woah, woah...
slow down there. I’ve never endorsed Miles. When we acquired Baker, I was all for it and thought Baker/Fonetenot would make a useful platoon. But Fontenot just hasn’t been the same hitter this season.
And I think you misunderstood my post. I was saying that if we do with Baker as our “DeRosa guy” then we should have a good LH bat to platoon with him as insurance against this season being fluky.
by Shawn Domagal-Goldman on Oct 2, 2009 12:01 PM CDT up reply actions
I think DeRo would come back, even at a lesser amount than he may be able to get elsewhere.
So, if healthy, yes- for the right price.
"Pain don't hurt you none" - Sparky Anderson (1987)
Obviously Sparky was never a Cubs fan...
ZEKE YOU ARE RIGHT.....
But as long as Hendry is there ….( They will not admit that they made a major blunder ) …What is going on with the Tigers ???
Al: I'd like to see Dero finish his career here and then end up in a coaching position
with the Cubs.
I think Mark is a thoughtful guy who can add a lot to the team and young players even when his days are over. Maybe if the Cubs dangle something like this in front of him, he won’t be that expensive to sign. DeRo is intelligent and I am sure he is already thinking about his life beyond his playing days. We should not dismiss those comments by Lilly.
Having both DeRo and Baker around could add a lot of flexibility to this team next year. It would be a much better start to 2010 then the Gathright/Miles tandem that started the 2009 season (I am getting ill as I type this).
"Truth hurts. Maybe not as much as jumping on a bicycle with the seat missing, but it hurts." - Leslie Nielson
I made the comment the other day that the LSU combo
is a “noose around our neck” like the old starting pitching combo of Wood and Prior.
I really do think it is time to move on.
"Truth hurts. Maybe not as much as jumping on a bicycle with the seat missing, but it hurts." - Leslie Nielson
I'm fine with keeping Theriot.
He’ll be worth a couple wins at either SS or 2B, and doesn’t cost much. I wouldn’t sign him to a contract extension, and would trade him if I could get a good return on him… but I wouldn’t be actively looking to replace him.
by Shawn Domagal-Goldman on Oct 2, 2009 12:11 PM CDT up reply actions
You can put DeRosa at 2B every day and let Baker float from position to position
Resting guys about once a week in different spots. I like it – if the Price is Right®
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
Bob Barker at 2nd base?
COME ON DOWN!
"Pain don't hurt you none" - Sparky Anderson (1987)
Obviously Sparky was never a Cubs fan...
OT: As you all know I'm sure, no Olympics for Chicago in 2016
I found this graph pretty funny explaining why we didn’t get it: http://www.olympicringschicago.com/
Mustache be gone!
by digitalbenjamin on Oct 2, 2009 12:16 PM CDT reply actions
DeRo come back, come back DeRo come back...
Sorry, Shane was stuck in my head.
DeRo may not be the RBI guy we need but he sure wouldn’t hurt if we got that one big bat we lack in the middle behind Lee and Aram. I agree Baker can be our next DeRo but having two such players is better than what we had this year in Miles & Fontenot.
This is only the beginning....Lou Pinella end of '07 season and Chicago Transit Authority (the band when they were really good).
And now I've got Player stuck in my head
DeRo come back – any kind of fool could see
There was something in everything about you
DeRo come back – you can blame it all on me
I was wrong, and I just can’t live without you
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
I even recognize that song
thanks for sticking it in MY head! Who was the artist?
This is only the beginning....Lou Pinella end of '07 season and Chicago Transit Authority (the band when they were really good).
♪♫ DeRo come back! Any kinda deal will do!
Jimbo was wrong…and we just can’t win without you! ♪♫
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
If DeRosa comes back............
and wears #7 what number will Miles wear next year???
Just kidding.
He can still have #7
On another team
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
AAA team.
This is only the beginning....Lou Pinella end of '07 season and Chicago Transit Authority (the band when they were really good).
or the Bears
"I won't be like A-Rod" - Z, 3/17/09
by Ihatethecards on Oct 2, 2009 12:55 PM CDT up reply actions
Never have so many tears been shed
and so many brows furrowed and so many breasts beaten for a journeyman utility player.
Nothing might sum up how pathetic the Cubs franchise can be sometimes than that.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Oct 2, 2009 12:46 PM CDT reply actions
I'll have more on this later...
but I think it says more on the state of the media than it does the state of the Cubs. You can track pretty well where the Cubs lost production this year compared to last, and it wasn’t in RF.
by Shawn Domagal-Goldman on Oct 2, 2009 12:47 PM CDT up reply actions
serious questions
no sarcasm or any other implication, just curious on your views—
Do you think that the core problem for the Cubs this year could be traced to bad chemistry/lack of leadership? Regarding a player like DeRosa, do you take that into effect when analyzing value?
There is absolutely no point in asking.
When someone has been so utterly, conclusively proven wrong for every day over the course of several months, and refuses not only to change their opinion, but even to accept the facts of what has happened, then there is no point in engaging in rational debate.
Because NBF will almost immediately accuse you of claiming that trading DeRosa was the single reason that the Cubs failed.
And later, he will accuse you of saying that DeRosa was better than Maddux or Sandberg, or some such.
It’s been going on since May, and NBF continues to claim that the DeRosa trade helped the 2009 Cubs.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
by D98 on Oct 2, 2009 1:46 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't think I ever said it helped
I just say it’s a non-factor. And, as far as the future is concerned, it does help.
The core problem for the Cubs this season was production well below average from key players and injuries to same. Bad chemistry/lack of leadership had very little to do with it.
Attributing mystic powers to DeRosa might get him an appointment with the Pope, but the effect on the Cubs is negligable.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Oct 2, 2009 1:58 PM CDT up reply actions
Another strawman argument from NBF - the "D98 thinks DeRosa is Christ, with mystic powers".
My argument is more along the lines of
1. 2B was 18% better than league average last year, and a sucking chest wound (78 OPS) this year.
2. The 2B in question was cheap, and in the final year of his contract.
3. The 2B in question was beloved by his teammates, who continue to discuss his return a full year later.
4. The 2B in question was also the only backup at 3B, and was a capable backup at both corner OF positions.
5. The return for trading the 2B in question did absolutely nothing to help the 2009 team, and the possibility that 1, 2, or even 3 of the minor leaguers in question could potentially help future teams’ middle relief corps is massively underwhelming.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
by D98 on Oct 2, 2009 2:24 PM CDT up reply actions
I do *not* think that was the main problem.
I’d say the biggest problem was a lack of offense. Mark DeRosa would have helped when Ramirez was our and Fontenot started slowly, but that’s about it. The biggest problems with this year’s team had nothing to do with DeRosa/Bradley and everything to do with Soriano/Soto.
by Shawn Domagal-Goldman on Oct 2, 2009 1:57 PM CDT up reply actions
Agreed
But don’t tell that to guys like D98, whose DeRo-colored glasses blot out every other shade, as well as every shred of logic.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Oct 2, 2009 2:00 PM CDT up reply actions
And as much as I like and respect Al,
shame on him for starting this argument all over again. I’m thinking he might be the biggest DeRo loser fanboy on this site.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Oct 2, 2009 2:02 PM CDT up reply actions
"I like and respect.... that loser".
It is a credit to Al that he’s granted you the privilege of continuing to befoul his website.
You bring little to the table in terms of ideas or insight, and have made a conscious decision to completely ignore the facts regarding this season as – and after – they unfolded.
This is about where you start Phase 3 of your standard argument – the poorly thought out ad hominem attack. You’ve already kicked it off by calling Al a “loser fanboy”, now fire away at me.
You’ve been embarrassing yourself all year, why stop now?
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
by D98 on Oct 2, 2009 2:14 PM CDT up reply actions
You know, I'd call you an idiot, moron, etc.,
but after giving it a lot of thought, doing that simply would be an insult to idiots and morons.
Have a nice life.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Oct 2, 2009 2:16 PM CDT up reply actions
Isn't it funny how the sentiment changes so much....
…..between “have a nice day”, and “have a nice life”?
For an “idiot”, I’ve been substantially more prescient than you regarding the issues faced by the Cubs organization. Not to mention the fact that I’ve run circles around you on this message board all year.
I’m still laughing about the time you took me to task for calling something in baseball “tragic”.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
by D98 on Oct 2, 2009 2:28 PM CDT up reply actions
Seriously, man--
How many times can you go back to your knee-jerk strawman argument?
Every time I, or anyone else, say that “trading DeRosa for three minor league pitchers was a bad idea”, you counter with D98 believes that trading DeRosa was the primary cause of the 2009 failure.
I predicted it in this thread!
Next, you move to your second strawman argument, which is saying that I believe that DeRosa is a HOF-level player, or that losing him hurt more than losing Maddux.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
by D98 on Oct 2, 2009 2:10 PM CDT up reply actions
Keep on reading things
that aren’t there, my good man.
But, just so there’s no ambiguity: Selling high on DeRosa was a good idea. Period.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Oct 2, 2009 2:15 PM CDT up reply actions
Selling high
for what? Other teams’ fringe prospects?
"Repetition is only good when you've been winning." - Valet
Can we get last year's Soto back for next year too?
He was my favorite player….ah memories.
"Fasten those seatbelts"-Pat Hughes
If we get last year's Soto and Soriano back...
this team is going to be very good again.
by Shawn Domagal-Goldman on Oct 2, 2009 12:54 PM CDT up reply actions
If Ted says DeRo is the best teammate
that he’s ever had, that’s good enought for me. Bring him back if he’s reasonable with the salary. What’s he worth, maybe $5 milllion per year?
"I won't be like A-Rod" - Z, 3/17/09
Me too. His worth is immeasurable.
This is only the beginning....Lou Pinella end of '07 season and Chicago Transit Authority (the band when they were really good).
Oh, please
If that’s true, he should be the highest-paid FA on the market next year.
A 35-year-old coming off a wrist injury? No, thanks. The Cubs already have a younger, cheaper version of him: Jeff Baker.
The priority should be younger, more-defensive middle-infield help.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Oct 2, 2009 1:02 PM CDT up reply actions
I tend to agree...
…the price would have to be supper right to make a play for DeRosa at this stage of his career and coming off an injury.
Furthermore, even if Hendry has the power to make this happen, I am going to guess he is going to be very cautious that his signings actually pan out for 2010, because he will be on a very short leash.
Play time is over for Hendry, and what I mean by that is signing guys he has an emotional attachement to etc.. He is on the clock, and it could be that he isn’t even making the final decisions on this stuff in 2010.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
I like DeRosa and wouldn't have made that trade
but we don’t need him back. Not when we have Jeff Baker already and needs at other positions.
Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.
I like DeRosa and wouldn't have made that trade
but we don’t need him back. Not when we have Jeff Baker already and needs at other positions.
Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.
I'd rather have a compentent SS
Why go out and overpay for another 2B? Is Hendry just absolutely infatuated with them? How about working to fix the disaster that is the outfield? He’s stuck in a corner and can’t get out.
"Repetition is only good when you've been winning." - Valet
DingDingDing!
OF is the biggest need at the moment.
by Shawn Domagal-Goldman on Oct 2, 2009 1:01 PM CDT up reply actions
How bad would this team be...
…with a Fuld/Johnson platoon in CF and Kosuke in RF (with Baker getting some time there vs. LHP)?
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
Very, very bad.
Like stealing Jobu’s rum bad.
by Shawn Domagal-Goldman on Oct 2, 2009 1:55 PM CDT up reply actions
The problem there is,
We have $40M tied up in Soriano, Bradley and Dome for both of the next 2 years.
Then we have $18M tied up in Soriano through the 2014 season. (Yikes.)
If Hendry can flip Bradley & Miles for Rowand, I’d be more than willing to say that he made the best of the awful situation he created.
And it still would be a singularly, hilariously poor use of tens of millions of dollars of his employers’ money.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
by D98 on Oct 2, 2009 1:51 PM CDT up reply actions
Soriano's contract is a killer.
Fukudome’s is a wash. Bradley’s isn’t that bad when it comes to on-field value. He’s clearly not worth it in Chicago, with the press and fanbase the Cubs have. They could have dealt him and gotten a decent return, but Hendry has ruined his value with the way he handled things at the end of the season.
by Shawn Domagal-Goldman on Oct 2, 2009 2:00 PM CDT up reply actions
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Oct 2, 2009 1:03 PM CDT reply actions
Gregg on WGN now.
“The experience of playing [at Wrigley] was awesome,” said Gregg. Emphasis added by me.
I'm not going to shed many tears
about his departure, thanks.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Oct 2, 2009 1:12 PM CDT up reply actions
True, that
Any would be too many.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Oct 2, 2009 2:07 PM CDT up reply actions
Blanco at SS today!
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
It's just Chicago crying because Rio gets the 2016 games.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Oct 2, 2009 1:13 PM CDT up reply actions
I like DeRosa
He is a fine player and obviously a leader on the field and in the clubhouse. But his offensive numbers have dropped and he was not the greatest fielder in the world either. He made some costly defensive mistakes last year at second (and in the playoffs) and is not really a viable option there anymore. If they do bring him back he should only play third base or outfield. However at the end of the day his price will be high and would he even want to come back to a team that turned their back on him?
Let's move on
Old girlfriends, fanboys, etc., are best forgotten. The memory will continue to be better than a 2010, coming-off-a-wrist-injury, 35-year-old DeRo. Just say no.
"When you're going through hell, keep going." - Winston Churchill
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