Walkoff Wonders: ALCS Game Four Preview, Yankees vs. Angels, Tuesday 10/20, 6:57 CT
by Al Yellon on Oct 20, 2009 11:01 AM CDT
in Chicago Cubs Game Threads
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PrintThis link from ESPN.com's Jayson Stark was posted in last night's game thread, but if you missed it, it bears mention on the front page:
There have been 1,251 postseason games in baseball history. Only two others -- two -- ever ended this way, with a walk-off extra-base hit by a team that was one out away from losing.
One was The Kirk Gibson Game -- Game 1 of the 1988 World Series, Gibson homering off Dennis Eckersley, Jack Buck warbling: "I don't believe what I just saw."
The other was The Bill Bevens Game -- Game 4 of the 1947 World Series, when Yankees pitcher Bill Bevens got within one out of the first no-hitter in World Series history, and then lost it all. Lost his win. Lost his place in immortality. Lost it on a two-run double by Cookie Lavagetto with two outs in the ninth.
Here's something you might not know about Bill Bevens -- that was the last major league game he ever started. He threw 2.2 innings of relief in Game Seven of the 1947 World Series, and then spent the next six years in the minors, never returning to the majors.
And just to clarify Jayson Stark's comment about Jack Buck: Buck's call of Gibson's HR was on CBS radio -- you can hear it at this link. Vin Scully, the Dodgers' regular play-by-play man who was calling the game for the national TV audience on NBC, called it this way:
"In a year that has been so improbable, the impossible has happened."
And none of this is even mentioning last night's stunning walkoff Angels win over the Yankees, which doesn't qualify for Stark's list only because the Angels weren't trailing at the time. This is some postseason we're having -- all we need now is a series to go down to the wire, or to have the Dodgers come back from a 3-1 deficit, or some more tense and thrilling extra-inning games.
Yankees at Angels, 6:57 pm CDT. Yankees lead series 2-1. TV: Fox. Announcers: Joe Buck and Tim McCarver.
Baseball-reference.com game preview
Please visit our SB Nation Angels site Halos Heaven and Yankees site Pinstripe Alley.
Discuss amongst yourselves.
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I find it surprising
how much I’m enjoying watching these games.
That said, I can’t help feeling how vividly it seems the gap is between these teams and our guys. We measure our team by how we compare against the Cards, or the wild cards, and look how meager their efforts seemed — not any different from our effort the last two years.
What I get from this is how high the bar is, and how far away we seem.
"The Cubs are due in sixty-two." - #14
I dunno.
Look at how some of these teams failed — the Angels failed to protect a lead in extra innings in game 2, the Dodgers had a topnotch closer last night who failed, the Angels couldn’t get a winning run home from 3B with nobody out…
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Sure, they are all far from playing perfect baseball,
in fact, that is what is making it so entertaining. Nevertheless, despite the gaffes, they are competing at levels we didn’t see a lot of this year.
"The Cubs are due in sixty-two." - #14
Who can easily look just as bad as the Cubs on any given day or night.
I give you the Dodgers getting blown out 11-0 the other evening.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
HA!
The Cubs’ worst loss to the Phillies this year was 10-1! So that must mean the Cubs are better than the Dodgers, right?
Right? Right?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
That said, I can’t help feeling how vividly it seems the gap is between these teams and our guys. We measure our team by how we compare against the Cards, or the wild cards, and look how meager their efforts seemed — not any different from our effort the last two years.
I know just what you’re talking about – the real top teams have that machine-like quality. All their hitters seem dangerous, all their pitchers avoid mistakes, etc. The Red Sox were like this in their championship years, and so were (sigh) the Cards the year they won; it’s apparent to one extent or another in all four of the remaining contenders this year.
As far as the distance we need to travel, well….yes. But, I honestly think there’s a luck factor in all this. If a few players have career years at the same time, it can really transform a lineup. If you have a good core of talent, and supporting players with the potential for a breakout year, then there’s the possibility of everything coming together.
This is what was so frustrating about the Cubs’ 2008 season – we seemed very close then.
The Yankees, of course, are exceptional – they probably have about 150% of a good core of talent, which is why they’re prerennially in contention.
"I tried to let Ryan know that [jumping over the dugout railing] was a thing that maybe just athletes should stick to." -- Ted Lilly, 28 July 2009
by CaughtInTheVines on Oct 20, 2009 12:21 PM CDT up reply actions
Just to clairfy...
….the Cardinals had this quality IN THE WORLD SERIES the year they won…..
"I tried to let Ryan know that [jumping over the dugout railing] was a thing that maybe just athletes should stick to." -- Ted Lilly, 28 July 2009
by CaughtInTheVines on Oct 20, 2009 12:35 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah, the Angels defense looked looked great the other night.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
Hey
I said “to one extent or another”! :-)
"I tried to let Ryan know that [jumping over the dugout railing] was a thing that maybe just athletes should stick to." -- Ted Lilly, 28 July 2009
by CaughtInTheVines on Oct 20, 2009 12:41 PM CDT up reply actions
I just think it's important not to get too googly eyed over these playoff teams.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
I approve this comment!
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Oct 20, 2009 1:38 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I hear ya...
…but I think the thing that’s interesting about this stage of the season is that combination of talent and fortune. It’s just so darn rare for the pieces to come together that it’s fun to watch.
It gets at the point that Al has made a bunch of times about the eventual champion usually being the team that gets hot at the right time. That’s very apt – but unless you have that core of talent, getting hot in late September just moves you from 4th th 3rd.
And I’ll make sure I stay stern, steely-eyed and realistic!
"I tried to let Ryan know that [jumping over the dugout railing] was a thing that maybe just athletes should stick to." -- Ted Lilly, 28 July 2009
by CaughtInTheVines on Oct 20, 2009 3:36 PM CDT up reply actions
Oh, it's definitely fun to watch.
And I give the Dodgers, Phillies, Angels and Yankees full credit for all they’ve accomplished up to this point. I’m not trying to take anything away from them. But this whole notion that the Cubs are sooooo far away from competing at that level strikes me as dubious to say the least.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
Right!
That’s what I was trying to say – that we have a passable core, especially with the pitching staff, and if we get breakout years from a couple of surprising places we could be One of Those Teams. Looking back I guess I didn’t say it very clearly!
"I tried to let Ryan know that [jumping over the dugout railing] was a thing that maybe just athletes should stick to." -- Ted Lilly, 28 July 2009
by CaughtInTheVines on Oct 20, 2009 4:08 PM CDT up reply actions
Don't think this is worthy of a Fanshot, but
Mariano Rivera spitting on the ball.
Nice paranoid, rousing post on Deadspin. What do you think?
Look closely - see where the expectorant is going to land?
I think he was just channeling what most of the rest of us think of Bud…
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Of course it's not intended to go on the ball.
I just found it humorous that Angels fans are this paranoid. I don’t even want to imagine if this happened against the Cubs. Many would die from an outrage fit.
actually I was referring to how the ball is positioned - with a certain signature up top
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
not to feed into the paranoia, but did you watch the video?
Agreed that the spit could have landed any number of places besides on the ball – you really can’t tell from just one angle. But the way Rivera looked up towards 2nd base and then 3rd base is pretty damning. He definitely had a “I’m about to raid the cookie jar” look about him.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
His hand is at his side.
The spit is going straight down. Not sure how that’s going to hit the ball.
It’s an optical illusion created by the camera zoom.
"Was you ever punched in the face five hundred times a night? It stings after a while." ~Rocky Balboa
The Commissioners Office reviewed available video and still photography from Mariano Rivera spitting toward a baseball in ALCS Game 3 and "found no evidence that Rivera spit on the ball," a spokesman for the commissioner told the Post.
maybe they should watch the video
"hey
by jesus christos on Oct 20, 2009 4:14 PM CDT up reply actions
It's an illusion caused by the angle of the lens.
Note that Rivera spits straight down. His arm is at his side. This is a non-issue.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
1) Rivera doesn't need it. 2) He has 1,000 cameras focused on him - think he's an idiot?
by stuartscottslefteye on Oct 20, 2009 4:52 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
How can you tell his arm is at his side?
The video has been pulled from YouTube, but based on the photograph above, can you ascertain where his right hand really is? Seems to me any illusion caused by the angle of the lens would encompass his hand as well.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Try doing that yourself.
If you hold your right hand below your mouth (presuming your head is at the same straight-on angle that Rivera’s is), you would have to be holding it at an awkward angle — bending your fingers at almost a 90-degree angle — to have your right hand directly below your mouth so you could spit on the ball.
It’s a trick of the camera angle.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Playing devil's advocate,
these ball players aremasters on the art of spitting. They can put one wherever they please.
Like I said.
Take a baseball, put it in your hand, then try holding it directly below your mouth in a way that shows your fingers like they are in the photo.
It’ll hurt like hell.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
do you have alligator arms, Al?
I have no problems holding a baseball and duplicating the finger positioning in that photo. And I can swivel my arm (at the elbow) so the ball could be right below me or off to the side. It doesn’t hurt at all nor does it feel the least bit unnatural.
Personally I don’t think he did it, but not because of the “arm-at-the-side” argument.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
It figures...
I finally decide who I want to be in the World Series, and of course it’s the two teams on the short end of the stick.
Aside from ABY (Anyone But Yankees), I’m hoping for Dodgers/Angels just to see what Fox does with the starting times. Would east coast prime time trump home team local preference, even if it meant playing through dark shadows (cue Barnabas Collins music)? Probably.
In 2002, it was Angels/Giants but I can’t remember what times games were played. I’m guessing east coast prime time but not sure. Before that, gotta go back to 1989, A’s/Giants, which I think was before the Evil Empire Fox got their grubby hands on baseball. But I recall seeing plenty of sunshine during the earthquake coverage so I’m guessing that was east coast prime time as well.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Starting times won't be late for an all-West Coast WS.
They’d start around 7:30 Chicago time — 5:30 on the West Coast. There have been enough games already that have run late in California this year that I think you could see that a 5:30 start there wouldn’t cause too many shadow problems.
In the two all-CA World Series that you mention, starting times were generally somewhere between 7 and 7:30 Chicago time.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
It just irks me that here you have (or would have) two teams that have fought long and hard all season
to earn the right to play for baseball’s highest prize, and they have to disrupt their schedules because a bunch of people live on the other side of the country, most who probably don’t care as much as they normally would because their team (or a team they have a connection to) isn’t in it.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
At the same time...
… I can see the networks’ point. If you start these games at 10:15 (approximately) Eastern time, you are pretty much giving up the entire East Coast as a viewing population, especially if no team from that time zone is in it.
At least a 5:30 start time in California is close to when many people are getting home from work, and with the length of these games they last well into prime viewing time in PDT.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Understood
just once though, it’d be nice to see the needs of the few outweigh the needs of the many or the Bud.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
On the other hand...
… if games started at 7:30 PDT, with the length they run, people would be fast asleep even in California before they were over.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
The earthquake
Happened at 5 pm Pacific time. Those of us here remember that vividly, because the freeway (Cypress structure) that collapsed in Oakland would have killed many more people on an ordinary commute day, but people speculate that many people left work early that day to watch the game at Candlestick or on the tube.
"When you're going through hell, keep going." - Winston Churchill
Regarding those world series,
In 1989, most of the games started at around 5:30 PM. I’m guessing Pacific Time Zone here.
In 2002, the games started either just after 5 PM (Anaheim Angels home games) or just about 5:30 PM (San Francisco Giants home games). Again, I am assuming the Pacific Time Zone here.
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy, and taste good with ketchup!
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Oct 20, 2009 12:27 PM CDT up reply actions
Fitting the LCS's has been so good....
…since the divisional / WC races for the most part (outside of the AL Central) were a non-story in September.
Certainly the Cubs poor season had an impact, but this was a very boring regular season. Lets hope we get paid back with more post season pandemonium!
To Al and Zeke:
Thanks for clearing up the confusion last night. I got the calls of Jack Buck and Vin Scully confused regarding Kirk Gibson’s home run.
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy, and taste good with ketchup!
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Oct 20, 2009 12:18 PM CDT reply actions
Com'on now, I posted that Stark linky last night!
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
If you read the post...
… I even SAID it had been posted in the game thread.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Another VERY interesting factoid
The Phillies win over Colorado on Monday the 12th was only the second time in the 109 year history of the playoffs that a team was down to their last out in a game and came back to win the game and take the series with that win.
The first time?
The night before when the Angles did it to Boston.
I love this game!
"Manny Trillo is coming in to pinch run. You know, for a lot of teams, you would pinch run for Manny Trillo." - Harry Caray
Angels shot their wad
Yankees in 5.
It’s a Yankee year. Learn to love it.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
Took 'em long enough.
They must be into that tantric stuff like Sting.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
thanks for not posting a graphic to go along with this
"When you're going through hell, keep going." - Winston Churchill
Not sure how to embed via iphone
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3271/2639389363_7061f19fab.jpg?v=1215290866
Well, I never heard it before, but it sounds uncommon nonsense.
- The Mock Turtle, Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll -
by eths on Oct 21, 2009 12:23 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Not sure how to embed via iphone
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3271/2639389363_7061f19fab.jpg?v=1215290866
Well, I never heard it before, but it sounds uncommon nonsense.
- The Mock Turtle, Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll -
by eths on Oct 21, 2009 12:24 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Hey Worf, how is Alexander doing?
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy, and taste good with ketchup!
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Oct 20, 2009 7:47 PM CDT up reply actions
Score of today's game?
Somebody? Anybody???
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy, and taste good with ketchup!
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Oct 20, 2009 8:49 PM CDT reply actions
o.0
Yuck.
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy, and taste good with ketchup!
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Oct 20, 2009 8:56 PM CDT up reply actions
Hey guys, I just got a phone call from MLB
Looking for people to replace the umpiring crews for next year.
Awful.
To eliminate exclusion, we cut out the differences to feel like we belong.
I just got a text message along the same lines.
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy, and taste good with ketchup!
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Oct 20, 2009 8:57 PM CDT up reply actions
its really really pathetic
To eliminate exclusion, we cut out the differences to feel like we belong.
Ladies & Gentlemen, the fix is on
That’s crew chief Tim McClelland at 3rd base, one of the most respected and finest umps in the game. And he’s screws up an easy call – right in front of him!
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
an inning after calling out swisher for leaving the bag to early on a sack fly, when replayed showed he wasn't EVEN LOOKING AT THE BAG!
To eliminate exclusion, we cut out the differences to feel like we belong.
Okay, that's just wrong.
How does he know that if he’s not looking at the bag?
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy, and taste good with ketchup!
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Oct 20, 2009 9:05 PM CDT up reply actions
Baseballs Mantra
Get it wrong, but quickly.
To eliminate exclusion, we cut out the differences to feel like we belong.
One more thing.
To anyone who was watching the game, what did the announcers on Fox say when the replays showed this?
I’m willing to bet it was nothing against the umpire.
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy, and taste good with ketchup!
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Oct 20, 2009 9:26 PM CDT up reply actions
actually, McCarver was pretty blunt
he said something to the effect of “how could he miss that?”
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Let's see ...
Tags one runner with ball, then puts foot on bag, and tags the other runner out.
And what did the umpire say happened???
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy, and taste good with ketchup!
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Oct 20, 2009 9:33 PM CDT up reply actions
Just to the left of 3rd base coach (#59)
I think that might be his shadow right behind Posada (the guy being tagged in 2nd photo). So it’s possible that Posada could have been blocking him from getting a clear view of the tags and the bag. But…
1) It’s his damn job to get into the proper position! That play unfolded slow enough that he should have seen what was going to happen and been able to move 3 feet to get a better view.
2) Assuming they were close to their original positions, the home plate umpire and the LF line umpire should have had perfect views of everything as well. Why was there not at least an umpire confab?
The only thing that makes me happy in all this is yet another ugly stain gets dolloped onto Bud Selig. It’s a shame it has to come at baseball’s expense though…
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
I was surprised no part or apendage of the Ump
was visible in either picture. I’m assuming, from looking, the two photos were in quick succession, but if the ball can move roughly 5 feet, an ump (already moving) to be in position for a view of the play should at least be in the left pocket of the third base coach.
The good thing is the game was a blow out so a run or two didn’t matter. This also makes the case for situational replays and another crew member onsite with access to video.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
I think the sac fly call
was a makeup call for missing the pickoff at 2nd. If the pickoff had been called correctly the fly ball would have been the 3rd out.
Now, when two guys standing near (not on) 3rd base are tagged and only one is called out – that I can’t explain.
Question.
I know the NFL grades its officials on the number of calls they get right, and the ones who do the best get the playoff games every year.
Does MLB do the same thing with its umpires? If not, how are the umpires picked for the playoff series? Because the umpiring during the playoffs this year has been terrible.
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy, and taste good with ketchup!
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Oct 20, 2009 9:11 PM CDT reply actions
Several corrections:
“The NFL grades it officials every year, and the ones who do the best get the playoff games.”
and
“The umpiring during the playoffs this year has been worse than terrible.”
Specifically, the fair/foul ball in the Twins/Yankees series, the umpire at first base (C.B. Bucknor?) blowing three calls in one game, and the two calls heine41 mentioned above.
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy, and taste good with ketchup!
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Oct 20, 2009 9:18 PM CDT up reply actions
Excellent!!!!!!
Link?
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy, and taste good with ketchup!
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Oct 20, 2009 10:09 PM CDT up reply actions
Kaplan reported that Jaramillo will be named the Cubs' new hitting coach on Wednesday.
it’s Kaplan though
COOL BEANS!
by lexmarklover on Oct 20, 2009 10:13 PM CDT up reply actions
Recap:
UMPIRES SUCKED TONIGHT
Yankees hit the bal far and spanked the Angels.
The Yankees are going to have home-field advantage in that crap-tastic juice box they call a park for the World Series.
I blame Bud Selig for all of this.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
By the way...
…here is a link to the Jaramillo’s-been-hired story, from Bruce Levine
"I am not a poet, but a poem."--Jacques Lacan
So does this mean we will become more fundamentally sound with respect to situational hitting?
Moving the runner over from 2nd to 3rd with no outs, scoring the runner from 3rd with less than 2 outs, hitting with RISP and 2 outs; you know, that kind of thing?
Just wondering.
I guess I should be excited the Cubs just gave a 3 year contract to a hitting coach- but I’m not.
Maybe I will in hindsight- as the Cubs are raising the WS trophy next year.
OK, maybe then. But for now, “meh”.
"Pain don't hurt you none" - Sparky Anderson (1987)
Obviously Sparky was never a Cubs fan...
we can only hope the Cubs get better at situational hitting.
I really believe the value of hitting coaches comes in spring training and in the drills that the batting coach makes the players go thru pre-game throughout the season. I guess I am “old school” in that I believe how you practice is how you play. Some teams have very disciplined methods to pre-game warm-up and it shows up in consistent performance on the field.
It is a mindset that carries over to the game. If Jaramillo helps to change this with the Cubs, I am all for it. Whether it has been Dusty or Lou, I have been very disappointed with plate and overall discipline of the players and the apparent DECLINE in discipline and increase in mental errors with each year that each guy has managed.
I hope Lou’s bad trend line ends in 2010!
"Truth hurts. Maybe not as much as jumping on a bicycle with the seat missing, but it hurts." - Leslie Nielson
Agreed. +2.42 Million...
I’m old school too. I like players who are thinking team first rather than padding their stats. That’s why (even as a Tigers’ fan) I admire the Twins organization. They do this to the “nth” degree, getting the absolute most out of their roster. Sure, they have a couple of superstars, but everyone on that team plays “team first” baseball, or they don’t stick around long.
I’d love to see that approach by the Cubs and that sense of “urgency” to do whatever it takes fundamentally to WIN the game. Hitting behind the runner, hit and run, straight steals, bunts, squeeze bunts- whatever it takes. The old “Earl Weaver 3-run homer” approach is not the ONLY way to win a game. Too often though, it seems like today’s players think the latter, rather than the former…
"Pain don't hurt you none" - Sparky Anderson (1987)
Obviously Sparky was never a Cubs fan...
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