When Will Bud Get It? Worst AL Ump Call Of All Time And He Likely Yawns
by cubnational on Oct 21, 2009 11:13 AM CDT
78 comments
Heads up defense by the Angels was, as usual, miffed by their offense and pitching (thank goodness the Cubs didn't get Kazmir) and the Yanks blew them out of the water 10-1.
But there's no doubt in my military mind that yes, that really was probably one of IF not the worst umpiring call of all time in the ALCS game last night in the Angels v Yankees debacle. Preceded of course by that play in which New York's Swisher was picked off at second by a full foot off the bag, and - of course - missed by the ump also.
No, really. As if the Yanks didn't get another break that was pathetic in and of itself when playing the Twins, now this? I had to pick my jaw up when I watched this. I screamed "OUT!" twice when I saw the Angels' catcher nail the two base runners .. and then watch the AL ump call ONE of them out. That is absolutely insane. The reasoning the ump for missing it was specious .. he had several seconds to watch what was going on and he was RIGHT there!
Look, umps are as human as baseball players. They miss their calling on occasion just as the biggest superstar might. But how many more blown calls will we have to endure before Bud Selig decides to join the 21st century and start using the technology available to them to review these things in instant replay just like the NFL does?
The Twins may not have been able to see what happened in the depths of that left field hole in the Bronx they call a stadium in the ALDS, but there's no way you could miss what happened last night in the ALCS. This was absolutely absurd and an affront to this game, and Selig needs a serious check up from the neck up if he's going to keep putting that kind of review option on the shelf. Oh, wait, I forgot about the Magical Fox Wizard manifestation which reflects the equally stupid way they divvy up viewing of MLB games, so what can we expect?
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
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I'll have more to say about this ...
… in my game preview post which will be up at 1 pm CDT.
But you’re correct. There is absolutely no reason not to have limited video review, probably the “red flag” system that’s been discussed. There were three blown calls last night — two favoring the Yankees, one favoring the Angels. If each manager had two red flags, all three calls would have been gotten right, with limited delays in the game.
How any rational human being can be against this is beyond me.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Oct 21, 2009 11:16 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
So many of the baseball "purists" refuse any kind of change
MLB always seems to behind the other leagues with these kind of things.
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by MrNFL on Oct 21, 2009 11:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
In this case...
…. I think Bud is the only “purist”. I’m guessing if you asked most GM’s/owners/managers privately and anonymously, they’d say they’re all in favor of replay.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Oct 21, 2009 12:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Especially
Mike Soscia and Jim Gardenhire, both got robbed on calls and both favored the Yankees, maybe the only team that doesnt need much luck in the first place…. ouch
"I hate to sound like a broken record, but I guess it's better than sounding like a broken mp3 player because then you would'nt hear anything." - Len Kasper
by JMG1984 on Oct 21, 2009 3:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've been an Umpire for over 10 years now
and this is just making me shake my head. On the Swisher call of leaving third base early. 2 Points, 1.) He was in the wrong position to make the call, when you have that many umpires in a game, you have the ability to line yourself up in that situation, he was to close to third base and could never make that call correctly. 2.) he was looking to the outfield at the time and never looked at Swisher. If you dont see it, you cant call it. I cant even begin to explain the double play at third, no reason what so ever to get that wrong.
WTF happened here?
by indytaz on Oct 21, 2009 11:51 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Baseball has long sold its soul to the "purists"
and not gotten anything in return.
To hell with purists. They haven’t done a damn thing for the game and they have stood in the way of every single progressive move baseball has ever made. If not for purists, baseball might have kept up with the NFL over the years.
If purists had their way, there would be 12 teams, with all-white players and the season would be over for 98 percent of the teams by Aug. 1. Purists suck.
And DO NOT bring up balls-and-strikes. We get it. No replay on balls and strikes. Stop bringing up that pathetic straw man. It gets in the way of real progress, which I guess is the purists’ point.
Replay should be put in — BY THE WORLD SERIES. Not next year. Not some idiotic trial period. Get it done before the World Series starts.
Give every manager three challenges and have it cover the following plays:
- Fair-foul
- Any play on any base
- Hit batsmen
- Home run/fan interference
- Trap plays in the outfield.
If a trap play is ruled a catch and found to be a hit, then it’s a ground-rule double. The batter gets second and runners advance two bases. Same with balls ruled foul, but actually fair.
It’s really not that difficult and it adds no more time to the game than people arguing. In fact, that is the carrot you can give the umps. Increase their latitude to eject people for arguing. Tell the managers — either challenge it or sit down and shut up.
Do it. Do it now.
If the umps don’t like it, tell them they are free to strike and the playoffs will be completed with AAA umps. They can’t be any worse.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Oct 21, 2009 11:53 AM CDT reply actions 6 recs
Turn it Green
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by MrNFL on Oct 21, 2009 5:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
There's the Worf we know and love!
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
by dtpollitt on Oct 21, 2009 11:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
well, the Worf we know at least...
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Oct 22, 2009 1:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed except...
I think traps should only allot 1 base.
"It's hard to win 97 games, it's hard to win the division. Our attitude is if you get in every year, you get in most of the time, sooner or later you are going to knock that door down." -- Jim Hendry
by EJThunder on Oct 22, 2009 12:36 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with all of this....
except for the number of challenges. Two is enough, and it also would be considered a strategic part of the game, i.e. do you challenge a call in the first or second inning. Three challenges, IMO, would be too many. However, I would also go one step further and say that any calls are fair game to challenge except balls and strikes. Anything else.
Also, there have definitely been some blatantly bad calls in this postseason, but you still have to go with the Denkinger call in the 1985 World Series as the worst of all time. He is the only professional umpire/official in any pro sport, to my knowledge, who can honestly have it said of him that he cost a team a world championship. There have been other calls that it’s fair to say it COULD HAVE done so (remember Hugh Hollins’ foul call on Scottie Pippen in 1994?) but I think Denkinger is the only umpire who almost certainly cost a team all the marbles. The only positive on that is that if there was one team in all of sports that it had to happen to….well, you know. :)
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004
by ctcoff99 on Oct 21, 2009 12:15 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I'd rather get it right
than have strategy. That’s the one flaw in football’s system. What if they make seven bad calls against your team?
Really, though, once you get past my list, what is left by balls and strikes? I listed homers, fair/foul, trap plays, hit batsmen and safe or out on the bases.
Only balls and strikes and balks are left.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Oct 21, 2009 12:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Denkinger no more cost the Cardinals the championship
than Bartman or Alex S. Gonzalez cost the Cubs the NL pennant, or Bill Buckner cost the Red Sox the WS.
All these instances were in Game 6. Suck it up and win Game 7. S**t happens.
"Was you ever punched in the face five hundred times a night? It stings after a while." ~Rocky Balboa
by Goodie1969 on Oct 21, 2009 12:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Game sure would have played out differently
with replay, though.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Oct 21, 2009 1:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
One is enough..
But if you appeal a call, and you’re right, you get another appeal. Once you’re wrong, you’re done.
Go State!
by Spartan1979 on Oct 21, 2009 12:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Would you give unlimited appeals in that case?
I think two per team is enough.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Oct 21, 2009 1:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And you just pray there aren't three bad calls against you
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Oct 21, 2009 1:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know you hate to see a manager without a challenge
but you need someway to prevent a replay doing everything. I think 2 is enough and a third if get two right. Honestly I dont think anyone would need more than 2.
I dont know what the right answer is but having nothing is wrong.
by niuhuskie224 on Oct 21, 2009 1:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Even last night...
… when there were THREE blown calls within 2 innings, neither manager would have needed more than two challenges.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Oct 21, 2009 1:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
My add-on is that
If the review proves the call was ‘correct’ (as opposed to inconclusive), the team loses the use of one of its remaining bench players, this to discourage frivolous challenges.
But two challenges ought to be enough, though I wouldn’t mind a third being granted if the first two are overturned.
by tim815 on Oct 22, 2009 6:44 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Umpires should be FIRED
They are being paid to do their job. They’re not doing it very well. Let go these men who aren’t competetant enough to watch the game on the field.
I’m sure there’s tons of men who are more qualified for this position and it would only be a benefit for every team in baseball and the fans.
That or you have to go to instant replay.
by ak123 on Oct 21, 2009 12:28 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Somewhere in Mission Hills, KS...
George Brett is not surprised.
"Was you ever punched in the face five hundred times a night? It stings after a while." ~Rocky Balboa
by Goodie1969 on Oct 21, 2009 12:38 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
And Sammy "The Dominican Corker" Sosa as well? ;-)
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Oct 21, 2009 12:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Without Hi-Def would we even care?
Human beings just make human being mistakes. We pay them to make their best judgments, and when they make a mistake, we call them “unqualified.” Jeez people, these are professional umps. It’s not that umps are making more mistakes than usual… it’s that there are 100 camera angles analyzing their every move.
I suppose an ump with 30+ years experience like Tim McClelland should be second guessed in every call he makes.
Replay is a waste of time. I happen to like the idea of an ump making a human call in the heat of the moment. It makes the experience seem more real.
Proud recipient of a hot dog shot from the Iowa Cubs hot dog gun.
by IowaCubs- on Oct 21, 2009 1:11 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
This may be the stupidest response in the history of this board
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Oct 21, 2009 1:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No need to second-guess every call Tim McClelland makes.
Just the atrociously bad ones.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Oct 21, 2009 1:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Replay will show
that umps get it right 96-98 percent of the time.
It’s the other 2-4 percent that needs fixing.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Oct 21, 2009 1:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And if it can be fixed during the game
it should be done. Some sort of challenge system has to be put into place. To say that ump error is an incorrectable part of the game is inexcusable.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Oct 21, 2009 5:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
My cable wasnt working
so i had to watch the game online. It was all pixalated and very bad quality but i could still tell it was a horrible call. We would care without hi-def.
FIRE VDN
by gocubs526 on Oct 21, 2009 4:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Each team gets two challenges
and the umpires can review a play if they choose to. I agree. Enough is enough.
Scott Bora$ is satan.
by Canadian Cubs Fan on Oct 21, 2009 1:20 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Maybe the umps can automatically review it after the 8th inning?
That would make the “only two challenges” thing go over better for me.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Oct 21, 2009 1:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I could go for that, too.
That’d be similar to the “automatic review” in the NFL’s last 2 minutes.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Oct 21, 2009 1:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes
I love this idea. 2 challenges in innings 1-7, booth review if in innings 8 or later. Perfect.
Why is it fans can think of these things and see the great side of this and MLB sits with their thumbs up their ass and does nothing year after year.
Speaking of which, I love how people talk about Bud Selig and bringing the Wildcard and Interleague play to the game. That was almost 15 years ago. What have you done for me lately?
by niuhuskie224 on Oct 21, 2009 1:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The World Baseball Classic!
(Sarcasm Alert!)
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004
by ctcoff99 on Oct 22, 2009 1:43 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So I feel like we have this nailed down
2 Challenges innings 1-7
Booth reviews after the 8th
- Fair/Foul
- Home Run
- Safe/Out at any base
- Trap Calls – Where if it is a trap and called out on the field and determined to be fair, it is ruled a base hit or ground rule double. I wont be hung up on this to get replay.
- NO BALLS AND STRIKES
- Hit Batsman
- IF THEY CALLED 4 STRIKES! Some will laugh but I believe this happened twice this year alone.
All of this being said, if a manager argues, he is ejected.
And this will not be reviewed on the field, there will be a 5th umpire in the booth who makes the determination. And evidence must be 100% conclusive to overturn.
by niuhuskie224 on Oct 21, 2009 1:53 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
The fifth umpire...
… would rotate with the other four, giving the other four a “break” on the bases… and also act as the official scorer. That job should be a MLB job anyway.
The umpires union would love this — they’d get everything right AND get more jobs.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Oct 21, 2009 1:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
On the trap calls...
… you’d have to make it “umpire’s judgment” if it gives one or two bases.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Oct 21, 2009 1:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Done and Done
Both ideas slide right in with no problem. 5 umpires increasing the total umpire crew to include 15 more guys.
Umpire judgment works for me. If the umpire feels that if the ball was trapped and the runner stops with a single anyway, then award one base. I am all about it.
by niuhuskie224 on Oct 21, 2009 2:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm with ya ALMOST all the way...
But I don’t know if I agree with the automatic ejection for arguing. Other coaches in sports with replay can argue their case without getting tossed…. plus I kinda like a good old manager-umpire shouting match every now and then!
by Fonzie2178 on Oct 22, 2009 9:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
They should have a war room
just like the NHL has. An NHL instant replay review is half the time of football. And believe me it’s just as hard to judge goals in the NHL replay as any football replay.
The one thing that will hamper this – regardless of the long winded rant above – is the potential inconsistency of camera locations from ballpark to ballpark. The advantage the NHL has over MLB is the much smaller & consistently sized playing surface.
I agree something has to be done, but to make a knee-jerk reaction, an often occurrence here, and miss something is far more damaging than doing it right for the start of the 2010 season.
Just win the next game...!
by blackhawk24 on Oct 21, 2009 2:37 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
The "war room" idea isn't a bad one...
… but having a fifth umpire in every press box would accomplish the same thing, AND give umpires a break from field duty every fifth game.
This is hardly “knee-jerk” — we needed HR replay long before we got it — but the sheer number of atrocious calls this postseason, and the chance that it MIGHT have affected the result of at least one playoff series (Rockies/Phillies), tells me we need it now, not later.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Oct 21, 2009 3:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
(thank goodness the Cubs didn’t get Kazmir)
wha? kazmir has been lights out with the angels
"hey
by jesus christos on Oct 21, 2009 4:33 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Well, except for last night.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Oct 21, 2009 5:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ok, maybe I was worked up over the whole game when it comes to Kaz
one in which the Angels had ample opportunities to work Sabathia better, but that’s beside the point.
How in the ever loving blue eyed world do you miss what the catcher did when he had the ball and RAN up the foul line to third? What was McClelland thinking about when all this was going on and he was standing there? The steak and lobster at Morton’s?
As I said, even the best can miss it, but come on .. THAT call???? My 10 year old little leaguin’ nephew Alex would have got that right!
Blue mountains high .. Blue valleys low
I don't know which way we will go ..
One summer dream .. one summer dream ..
coda
ELO, 1975
by cubnational on Oct 21, 2009 6:53 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Couple points....
1. (Related / Unrelated to the McClelland gaffe) Umpires need to be in good physical shape which, in turn, allows them to do their jobs better, IMO. (See: NBA)
2. Part of the problem last night was that the other umpires didn’t want to step on Big Poppa McClelland’s toes and “offend” him. It’s ridiculous. You can’t tell me that the other umpires agreed with McClelland’s call. How about a quick meeting and why didn’t the other umpires call him out. Why can’t we get a call RIGHT in the middle of the freakin’ playoffs instead of being weary of offending someone who clearly made the wrong call.
All of those umps should be barred from working the playoffs and, God forbid, the World Series.
"It's hard to win 97 games, it's hard to win the division. Our attitude is if you get in every year, you get in most of the time, sooner or later you are going to knock that door down." -- Jim Hendry
by EJThunder on Oct 22, 2009 12:45 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
No Replay
You can call me a purist or whatever, but I don’t see the need for replays. I know these were terrible calls, and don’t think it’s important if they affect the game or not. The calls were bad and should not have been missed.
My solution is to make the umpires do their job. If I were to screw up that badly in my job I would be looking for a new one. You can see in all cases that the umpires were either out of position, or looking in the wrong direction.
Discipline the umpires when they make a mistake. Bad mistakes – you’re fired.
The umpires seem to think they’re as big a part of the ‘show’ as the players. The best umpire is one you never notice.
Reviews of the umpires performance to make sure we have the best people for the job is a far better way to get the best performance from my ‘purist’ point of view.
by I'll Have a Pint on Oct 23, 2009 10:47 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
So when an umpire makes a really bad call...
… that’s obvious to everyone but him, and it costs the Cubs a World Series, you’d be OK with that?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Oct 23, 2009 10:52 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Of course I'm not OK with that
It’s that my solution to avoid that is to get the best people doing the best job, not to introduce technology.
I’m tempted to blame this on unions but that would get this off track. The umpires performance, good and bad, needs to be reviewed. Bad performance means no job.
Good umpires, doing their job proficiently would not have missed those calls – hence no need for replay.
by I'll Have a Pint on Oct 23, 2009 11:05 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm going to disagree with you.
Two of the missed calls were from one of the acknowledged best in the business — Tim McClelland.
“Good umpires, doing their job proficiently” do miss calls. They are human beings and can make mistakes. We have the technology to fix those mistakes. Why not use it?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Oct 23, 2009 11:24 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm OK with the disagreement
but if he is one of the best, how come he is out of position? And how come the other umpires didn’t speakup?
He was not doing his job proficiently, that’s the problem. What were the consequences (to him) of blowing it? Any disciplinary action? I don’t believe so.
Of course, mistakes could still happen, and that’s where I guess we will have to agree to disagree. They could be kept to an acceptable level without technology. Mistakes such as those that happened the other night are, I believe, preventable without it.
by I'll Have a Pint on Oct 23, 2009 11:36 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
+1 Recommended - and this coming from someone in favor of adding more replay use
Excellent questions IHAP. McClelland was out of position and the other umps not saying anything was mystifying at best.
I think your logic is sound and strong – unfortunately, you’re dealing with the vagrancies and failings of MLB. They could have the world’s bestest action plan laid out in front of them and their execution of it would be a miserable failure.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Oct 23, 2009 11:56 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, he WAS out of position
and he missed the calls.
But replay has consistently shown over the years that umpires get the vast majority of the calls right. I’d put it at 96-98 percent, actually.
To me, the logical thing isn’t to fire a guy doing his job 98 percent of the time, but to help him get the other 2 percent right.
I don’t advocate replay because I think the umps are completely hopeless. I advocate it because I think the umps are very good and need more help.
Don Denkinger was a great umpire who needed replay. Richie Garcia was another.
I’d also like to quote Cowherd about the time thing.
“So, the sport without a clock is worried about time? The sport where you could have six days between the LCS and the World Series is worried about three minutes?”
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Oct 23, 2009 12:44 PM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
Loud, sustained applause.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Oct 23, 2009 12:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No where have I mentioned time
My objection to replay has nothing to do with the time it may or may not take. I have not mentioned that anywhere.
My thoughts are to improve the 98 percent without technology. I guess that’s where the ‘purist’ part of me is coming from. The umpires need to be disciplined for their mistakes. Fired if they cannot perform their job proficiently. Consistently making bad calls, being out of position, not looking at the right thing. How many times does it seem like a 1st/3rd base umpire makes an arbitrary call on a swinging strike appeal? Were they even looking? This type of thing can be reviewed after the game to ensure the umpires are doing their job at the highest level.
The question I have for the replay advocates is why you draw a line for what can and cannot be replayed? Why not strikes and balls? We have the technology for that too.
Last point Worf – there is such a thing as an ugly female breast. I guess we will have to agree to disagree on that too.
by I'll Have a Pint on Oct 23, 2009 12:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
After the game?
You mean, maybe after a team gets jobbed out of a win that they would have legitimately had if the umpire hadn’t made a mistake?
Firing is a pretty severe punishment for, say, one or two mistakes. Instead, use technology to make sure the mistakes are fixed.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Oct 23, 2009 1:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, that's not what I mean
My performance on the job get’s reviewed continously. I mean that on a regular basis (maybe every game), the umpires performance should be reviewed, nothing to do with if there was a bad call.
Were they in position?
Are they looking for the right things?
Are they making accurate calls, including the strike zone.
If you do the same job for a long time you can get better, you can also get lazy and stop paying attention to the right things. This is where continuous review and feedback can help
by I'll Have a Pint on Oct 23, 2009 2:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
All that should happen
You haven’t given one good reason why replay shouldn’t be added on top of all that.
OF COURSE umpires should be reviewed for things like that. In fact, one of the things can be, “Look, you were out of position and the manager had to burn a challenge and we had to hold up the game to get it fixed. Do better.”
Umpires are part of a union. You just don’t fire them at the drop of a hat.
Get it right. We want to. You would rather cling to some bygone era. I pity you.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Oct 23, 2009 2:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
All of that ALREADY happens.
We are talking about fixing problems that may cost teams games. I cannot imagine why you are against this.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Oct 23, 2009 2:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, you didn't
but it was coming. It always comes from the purists. Don’t lie.
We have said several times which calls should be covered:
- Home run — both fair/foul and top of the wall
- Fair/foul
- Base plays
- Trap plays
- Hit batsmen
That leaves balls/strikes, balks and interference plays.
I think balls and strikes shouldn’t be part of replay for several reasons
1) Way too unwieldy.
2) Most balls and strikes calls tend to even out
3) Players can adjust in-game to a strike zone, just as football players adjust to holding calls and basketball players adjust to foul calls. It is impossible to adjust to being called out at first when you were safe.
And you’re absolutely right that umpires can still be monitored. You can add number of times overturned to the list of ways to measure him. (A new stat for the geeks!)
But how does that help the team that got screwed? I mean, I’m sure it would bring some small level of satisfaction to know that an ump who blew a call that went against the Cubs in the playoffs got fired, but I’d rather the man had his job and the Cubs won the game.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Oct 23, 2009 1:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hmm - you are a fortune teller too
I’m not lying, it was not coming. One of the many attractions of the game for me is the pace.
Balls and strikes are unwieldy – seems instant on my TV
So if bad calls for balls and strikes even out, that’s OK? Just get them umpires to call them right. Also without excessive, showman like calls. Just call it, they are not part of the ‘show’
Adjusting to bad calls? Just make them right.
Again, my point, and where we differ, is that by improving the umpires performance through training, review of mistakes, disciplinary action (when necessary) we can reduce the number and severity of mistakes to an acceptable level without replay.
by I'll Have a Pint on Oct 23, 2009 1:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Adjusting to bad calls? Just make them right.
Unless it involves using that evil technology!
GET OFF MY LAWN!
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Oct 23, 2009 2:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It was your suggestion
that ‘Players can adjust in-game to a strike zone’
And you don’t want technology for that.
by I'll Have a Pint on Oct 23, 2009 2:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It would be way too cumbersome
to have replay potentially after every pitch. There are also usually 150-200 pitches per team in a game. Over the course of a game, that will even out.
You’re deliberately being obtuse. That is the last civil response I will give you. You have angered Worf with your pigheadedness and you wouldn’t like Worf when he is angry.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Oct 23, 2009 2:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Didn't realize all the other responses had been civil
I’M OFF YOUR LAWN.
by I'll Have a Pint on Oct 23, 2009 2:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
don't worry about it, Pint
that’s just big bad Worf huffin and puffin ‘til he blows everybody’s house down that doesn’t agree with him. He’s still the same Worf he’s always been – he’ll never change. A BCB ‘purist’ you might say…
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Oct 23, 2009 2:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Passive-aggressive much?
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Oct 23, 2009 3:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Cowherd quote is brilliant.
Any sport where a guy can “delay” the game with stupid ritualistic adjustments and fidgeting, or stare in at the catcher for inordinate amounts of time, step off the mound, have conferences with the manager, who retreats to the dugout, only to emerge a few pitches later for another conference, then summon a new pitcher from the bullpen, who is then allowed to take several warm-up pitches to “get ready,” cannot be worried about time.
The WUA is the only thing that might hold this up. Apart from the moronic commissioner, that is.
"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things." ~Winston Churchill
by Goodie1969 on Oct 23, 2009 1:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you put a 5th umpire in each park in the press box...
… with the authority to review, or be called on by managers to review under a “red flag” system, you don’t have the WUA objecting, because you’d be creating 15 new fulltime umpiring jobs, not to mention making umpires look better by making sure they get it right.
There’s no downside here.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Oct 23, 2009 1:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And as I've said
the carrot you give umps is that you can tell them they don’t have to take as much shit from managers, because managers will be told to either challenge it or shut up.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Oct 23, 2009 1:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly.
Which also ought to make the system liked by managers, because it would nearly eliminate pointless arguments, ejections and the suspensions that result from said ejections.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Oct 23, 2009 1:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
There will still be a bit of jockeying for strike zones
here and there and you’ll still have the occasional player who goes from 0-60 on the temper scale and gets run before the manager can get there. (Or the ump who is too quick on the trigger)
But it would cut down on a lot of it.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Oct 23, 2009 2:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or he made a mistake
even the best make mistakes, so there needs to be some sort of replay or challenge system to correct mistakes. Firing an ump who makes a mistake is not the solution as the game’s outcome is already affected. There will always be mistakes, so there has to be a way to correct them before a game is affected.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Oct 24, 2009 10:08 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You make it sound like an either or situation
There is no reason baseball cannot review ump performance more stringently and can the screwups, and also have replay/challenges. The bottom line is that an ump should not determine the outcome of the game. If the ump gets it wrong, there has to be a mechanism to fix the problem so the outcome is not adversely affected.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Oct 24, 2009 10:05 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
This whole deal with limited video review ..
.. should involve ONLY video imagery that involves a ball IN PLAY .. such as batted offense or an infield defensive play in those all too familiar situations we’ve spoke of. Let the umps govern over their rule of the strike zone and never use the video to argue balls and strikes.
WHY Bud don’t get it really is over the top.
Blue mountains high .. Blue valleys low
I don't know which way we will go ..
One summer dream .. one summer dream ..
coda
ELO, 1975
by cubnational on Oct 26, 2009 9:24 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I don't think anyone is argiung for
the use of video replay for balls and strikes. I mentioned I would be okay if they used it for checked swings, but that is as close as I remember anyone here getting. I would like baseball to use cameras and tape to get the umps to better enforce the rulebook strikezone though.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Oct 27, 2009 12:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
ah, but what a slippery slope that would become
How do you “Get” an umpire to better enforce a strikezone except that you rigorously pull them aside and individually critique them?
Where does that happen?
What do you do with the results? Do you create Pentagon Papers full of peer reviews stored in some cold citadel guarded by armed men with feral dogs?
One thing’s for sure, that ain’t going to happen in a live game context, ever. No umpire or union will ever submit to having themselves called to task during an ALCS, World Series or ANY game, ever.
You might get it if they voluntarily have an “Aha” moment and realize how it could help them and encourage them to get together at some opulent private location with a well stocked bar, a good buffet and a big screen TV filling an entire wall making the players life size, with a professional video playback bay. Maybe they’ll learn something, but more than likely they will be pretty well watered by the time the first DVD review finishes.
And they’ll never tell you how it really went ..
Blue mountains high .. Blue valleys low
I don't know which way we will go ..
One summer dream .. one summer dream ..
coda
ELO, 1975
by cubnational on Oct 27, 2009 7:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You missed my point
and got more than a little goofy in your review (Pentagon Papers, feral dogs????)
I think there is a way each ump’s strike zone can be plotted from game to game. Over time a pattern can be created, which can then be used to point any flaws in the ump’s strike zone and be corrected. I did not say or even suggest that it be used to discipline an ump in the middle of the game. But it could be used as part of their review process each year. Failure to correct problems would be grounds for dismissal. Will the umps’ union scream like stuck pigs? No doubt, but baseball owners need to do what is best for the game, not what is best for the umps. As for umps governing their own?? Please.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Oct 28, 2009 2:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
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