Neighbors Express Concern About Wrigleyville Hotel Project
Fran Spielman writes in the Sun-Times:
If M&R Development is allowed to build a project at Addison and Clark that rises to 91 feet at its tallest point, that could pave the way for future developments with buildings that high, said Amy Karatz, president of the East Lake View Neighbors Association.
"This is the pivotal development that will change the nature of the entire neighborhood. We don't want a downtown, tall-building commercial district in the confines of a mostly residential neighborhood," she said, after hearing M&R's pitch this week.
I emailed Rob Nash, who is the PR person for this project; here is his response:
We continue hear from supporters - both residents and businesses from across Lakeview and Wrigleyville. Many neighbors understand we are trying to improve the corner and provide some new benefits to the neighborhood. Support for the hotel, widened sidewalks, the attractive building design and the elimination of the empty, surface parking lots is strong.
We encourage anyone from the community who wants to learn more about the project to visit AddisonParkonClark.com and register for updates. If you support the plan, we encourage people to send a note to Alderman Tunney's office at ward44@cityofchicago.org.
There's some useful information at the link Rob Nash provided in that email, along with detailed renderings of what the project would look like. As always, we await further developments.
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91 feet...
doesn’t sound that high. Or am I missing something?
by bison on Oct 24, 2009 10:42 AM CDT via mobile reply actions 0 recs
No, I don't think it is either.
And especially if they do it as the renderings in that link have it, a lot of it is set back from the street. I suspect this will eventually get built, but with economic conditions the way they are now, it may be a few years away.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Oct 24, 2009 10:46 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The East Lake View Neighbors Association
certainly have a vested interest in what happens to their neighborhood. I fail to see, however, Amy Karatz’ postulation that “We don’t want a…..commercial district in the confines of a mostly residential neighborhood…..” somewhat puzzling. What, pray tell, is it now? I think the 40,000 or so people that show up almost daily each baseball season pretty much renders her point as moot.
And so it goes.
by Luigi on Oct 24, 2009 10:47 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
well, you did leave out the "downtown, tall-building" part of her quote
Now, whether 91 feet constitutes a “downtown, tall building” look-n-feel is another argument and one she probably could’ve/should’ve framed better.
There is a zoning ordinance that limits the height of residential development in Lakeview – not sure of the exact height but essentially it’s nothing over 3 “stories” (those 3+1 condos stretch the definition). However, it should come as no surprise that a few visits to the alderman’s office and a contribution or two along the way will get you an exemption.
Commercial development is usually both harder and easier. Harder in that it gets more visibility so the concerned public is more aware, but easier in that these days it’s tougher to mount organized opposition and the veto bar is probably set a little higher. Oh, and I’m guessing the “contributions” are bigger too.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Oct 24, 2009 11:33 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
My first sentence
doesn’t make a lot of sense, does it? What I should have written is that I see her statement as somewhat puzzling.
And so it goes.
by Luigi on Oct 24, 2009 10:50 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
It made sense to me...
…. you put what she said in quotes.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Oct 24, 2009 11:18 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Looks like they did their homework. I like it.
Reading the proposed traffic study is interesting. Such small but important details as right turns only from the parking garage entrance on game days are pretty smart.
Widening the pedestrian walkways and adding countdown traffic and crosswalk lights is also a good idea, but anyone who’s tried to make a right turn downtown (Mag Mile) knows that pedestrians generally behave how they choose, and not how the flashing sign wants them to. Strict crowd control is a must then.
As for the design, I think it looks pretty nice as well. No portion of the new structure is any taller than the stadium roof by more than a few feet. You can’t really see into the park from anywhere in the new building, but I would think this place would have high appeal for renters, even at those prices ($1700 and up). It’s new, with amenities, and a pretty great location.
"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things." ~Winston Churchill
by Goodie1969 on Oct 24, 2009 11:26 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Plus, the Triangle Building...
… that the Cubs are going to build, is going to be taller than that.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Oct 24, 2009 11:27 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Anyone who has moved into the East Lake View Neighbors Association boundaries
since 1984 has a little less credibility in making the “confines of a mostly residential neighborhood” argument in my opinion – and I’m not saying that the President of ELVNA falls into this category but I have seen this ‘nimby’ argument from people who moved there well after it became a much more commercialized area -
by doofus cubs guy on Oct 24, 2009 11:27 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
They moved in to an area with a ballpark that did not even have night games
( are you sure you did not mean 1988 ?). Big difference per above to a few hours of disruption on less than 1/4 of the year and a major commercial development in a residential neighborhood.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Oct 24, 2009 11:31 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fwiw...
(And sorry for reply to all your posts here! Not trying to be argumentative! :))
I was only 7 when lights were installed at Wrigley, so perhaps I’m wrong, but it seems to me that given that every other stadium in the country had lights, it must have been apparent to people long before 1988 that it was at least a strong possibility that lights would one day be put in at Wrigley, right?
In other words, people moving into the area in say, the 1970s or early 1980s shouldn’t have moved into Wrigleyville with the idea that nothing would ever change in terms of night games, congestion, etc.. Or am I missing something?
by CubsWin!Oregon on Oct 24, 2009 11:47 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm sure others with more Cubs lore at their side will chime in here but...
…IIRC lights were supposed to be installed in the mid 1940’s but plans were scrapped due to WWII – the building materials instead went to the war relief effort or something like that.
Now, once the war was over and things got a little more back to normal, I’m not sure why it took more than 40 years before lights were installed. Maybe a combination of the Wrigley family cheapness factor, more wars, and organized neighborhood opposition later on?
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Oct 24, 2009 11:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
you are correct
the steel was donated to the military efforts
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
by Cubbie-Tim on Oct 24, 2009 12:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hard to say
The Cubs had been so adament against them . I actually moved in in 86 and was not expecting them but the main issue here is wether the priority is the Cubs or the residents on what would be by far the largest developement in the area.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Oct 24, 2009 11:56 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think their will and should be MASSIVE opposition to this from the residents.
It is one thing to have 40,000 folks come to your neighborhood 81 times a year for 5 hours ( and a few thousand more
stay around for a few hours after that) it is entirely different to build something which certainly appears totally out of character for the neighborhood and add 600 (safe to assume at least two bodies per room /apt) plus bodies on a daily basis. Someone will have to tell me how many stories we are talking here but I know of nothing in the area more than 4 and the vast majority are 2 and 3 stories even on business streets. I have no problem with a the Cubs building parking, office space & retail on the block to build a structure so out character with the rest of the area and add so many more people is a huge problem. I know there are people here who think " well those people knew there was a ballpark when they moved so screw em" but Tribune and Ricketts knew this was a completely residential area when they bought them. Tens of thousands of people live in Wrigleyville year round and the politicians should give their lives a higher priority than luxury housing to help the Cubs financing.
FYI I would love to see a list of those residents Mr. Nash says have been giving him support. Unless they live above the bars they own I doubt there are going to be many residents who support this. I know some BCB folks live in the area so I would love to hear your views.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Oct 24, 2009 11:27 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I suspect that I have the opposite view as you do...
in that I view this sort of thing as akin to the people who move into the same neighborhood as an airport and then complain about the noise (though obviously I’m not suggesting they are identical situations).
One thing I would be curious about is whether or not the presence of Wrigley Field works as a boon to real estate value in the neighborhood or as a hindrance? If the former, I’m not sure how much sympathy I have for people who would reap the benefits of something but don’t want to pay/suffer for the accompanying associated issues to maintain that benefit.
In general, I suppose my sympathy for the people would depend on how long they’ve lived in the area, and whether or not they actually own the property in question (as opposed to renting).
by CubsWin!Oregon on Oct 24, 2009 11:42 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
We have argued the value thing here before
Bottom line is EVERY area on the near north side has increased exponentially so I don’t think being near Wrigley has done much for property values except for the the blocks of Sheffield and Waveland across from the park where the idiot
rooftop seating was built. I used to live on Magnolia which a beautiful tree lined residential block about 4 blocks away
and I don’t think it has increased in value at a greater rate then my mother’s house ( she lives in Lincoln Park) or my
friend’s condo on Greenview about a mile away. The values have just shot up period and the folks who like to portray the residents as selfish falsely claim that Wrigley is somehow responsible for the increased value.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Oct 24, 2009 11:51 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
With all due respect...
… you’re wrong.
Had Wrigley Field not been where it was, property values would not have increased as much as they have. Yes, it’s true that property values everywhere in Lakeview have gone up. But the farther you go from Wrigley — north or west — the lower they get.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Oct 24, 2009 11:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well of course they are less North and West Al
Everything closer to the lake ( east) does better in that area and everything further north does less. Do you think that a the fact that a condo on Belmont & the Lake is worth more than one on Marine Drive and the lake has to do with Wrigley Field or that one on Cleveland & Belden is worth more than one on Greenview and Irving ? This is Chicago real estate geography so Lincoln Park is more valuable than Wrigleyville but yes we do disagree that the value of property on say Magnalia, Alta Vista, etc would not have gone up just as much without Wrigley and in a few cases I suspect being TOO close to Wrigley hurt values.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Oct 24, 2009 12:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think that dynamic is changing...
I live 3 blocks away, multi-unit condo building. I don’t have any numbers in support of this feeling, but going by anecdotal evidence (several units in my building have been on and off the market the past few years) from owners and realtors, being right next to Wrigley isn’t as big a selling point as it has been.
The noise, the congestion, the expanding night life (it’s no longer just Fri and Sat nights), the idiots pissing in your yard, etc. are all being mentioned as detriments when it comes to decision time. Ten years ago, that stuff never came up – they had you at “Wrigley Field”.
I suspect if you go a little further out, you can probably still credit some portion of rising property value to Wrigley Field but it’s nowhere near what it used to be.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Oct 24, 2009 12:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
…sorry bout that yard…
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
by dtpollitt on Oct 24, 2009 1:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Does this mean you have some personal responsibility on that ?
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Oct 24, 2009 2:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
(sarcasm)
(joke)
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
by dtpollitt on Oct 25, 2009 12:34 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
oh - I guess I'll stop collecting DNA samples then... ;-)
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Oct 25, 2009 8:29 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
FYI something fishy on the plans
It says the sportsworld store and automotive repair shop “extending” East "are NOT in the plans. Um those two are
IN THE MIDDLE OF THE BLOCK. They are obviously having a disagreement over prices. I am also curious as to if this means the Cubs already own the rest such as the 7/11, Salt & Pepper Dinner etc or are they planning on getting the city to use eminent domain to steal them for them ?
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Oct 24, 2009 11:35 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I would be...
very disgusted if eminent domain is brought to bear to take people’s property.
by CubsWin!Oregon on Oct 24, 2009 11:43 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You keep saying the Cubs but I don't think the Cubs are involved at all with this project
at least not on the surface. From the Q&A page on the development web site:
Are the Chicago Cubs partners in the project development?
No. We anticipate the Cubs to be involved in the public process along with other neighbors.
Also, I know that the 7-11 had definitely said “NO” when this development first surfaced – I talked to the franchise owner myself. However, from the renderings and the copy on the site, it looks like the project goes all the way to Sheffield, so it would seem that the original Big offer was increased to a Super Big offer and was accepted. ;-)
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Oct 24, 2009 11:49 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It isn't clear...
… from those renderings whether the 7-11 is included in the new structure. But given that the other renderings include existing businesses, I suspect it is.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Oct 24, 2009 11:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think it is as well.
The site copy makes a point of stating the auto repair shop and SportsWorld are NOT part of the development, so the absence of any mention of 7-11 makes me think that they did accept an offer and most likely will be included in the development. Inclusion would almost have to have been part of any acceptance.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Oct 24, 2009 12:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Does this mean they probably have deals
with all the business on Clark as well. It is one full block right ?
I think I might oppose this just cause I need my Big Gulp before the game.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Oct 24, 2009 12:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sigh... It's always about you isn't it... ;-)
It’s not clear from the renderings but again – I’d have to believe a 7-11 will be there. So you (and Al) would just be inconvenienced during the construction phase.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Oct 24, 2009 12:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
GASP!
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Oct 24, 2009 12:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Clark & Montrose, Clark & Southport, Racine & Belmont...
…Halsted & Roscoe, Broadway & Waveland, Broadway & Gordon Terrace, Western & Grace, Broadway & Barry, Sheffield & Diversey…
Hang on Al – you’ll make it through this crisis. You can do it. Be strong.

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Oct 24, 2009 12:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He won't be able to drink that!
The straw is too big!
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy, and taste good with ketchup!
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Oct 24, 2009 12:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're damn right she did say that!
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy, and taste good with ketchup!
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Oct 24, 2009 1:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's the SUPER DELUXE EXTREME HUMONGOUS Big Gulp!
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Oct 24, 2009 12:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry other locations won't help
Unless my Big Gulp is fresh when I get in, what is the point ? To be fair I think a ban on Big Gulps
is inevitable. Too many jackass frat boy types use them to sneak in hard liqueur which will eventually force the Cubs to ban them.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Oct 24, 2009 5:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Again - it's all about you, isn't it...
How do you get to Wrigley when you’re in town?
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Oct 24, 2009 6:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well of course it is about ME
I walk straight down Clark from Fullerton. Actually I have cut back on the soda but if I did still drink them a lot , I can make do with a coke from McDonalds etc. I just HATE Pepsi which is what they sell in the park. Basically I bring bottles of water.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Oct 24, 2009 6:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, just take Clark to Halsted to Roscoe and get your Big Gulp fix there.
Not that much of a detour and you’ll walk the rest of the way on tree-lined streets instead the drunken congestion of Clark St.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Oct 24, 2009 7:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Must be SUPER fresh so if I want a fountain coke I can get it at McDonalds
I would seriously miss the folks who run the Addison & Sheffield 7/11 though.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Oct 24, 2009 7:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think they'll still be there.
From what they once told me, that is the highest-grossing 7-11 in the world.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Oct 24, 2009 7:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well if the Cubs are not involved than there is NO reason to support it
Why let a commercial developer wreck a residential neighborhood. Of course you will excuse my suspicion that the Cubs don’t support this. Don’t you live around there ? What is your view.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Oct 24, 2009 11:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think the plans look very good.
If all the bars and restaurants that opened in the last 10 years didn’t bother the residents, I don’t see why this improvement would.
by cubswin on Oct 24, 2009 12:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The area in question is not residential...
… nor has it ever been. It’s not like they are knocking down greystones owned by little old ladies to do this project.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Oct 24, 2009 12:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think if you elect to live near a major sporting mecca,
a well known tourist hot spot, a landmark protected building, a place people pay to take tours of when the team isn’t in town….
… you have to expect that at some point, somebody is going to try to commercialize the thing as much as possible.
Its fairly obvious it isn’t going to be 100 year old buildings and single level uncovered parking lots around Wrigley forever. The good people of Lakeview would be better off working with developers to make sure whatever inevitably happens is nice and fits their neighborhood, rather than fighting progress in an area that could use it and WILL get it.
Dum spiro spero…
Follow me on twitter or else: @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Oct 24, 2009 11:55 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I think they would work with a developer
and I don’t think anyone expected that commercial corner to stay with one story auto repair store but I do NOT think they can or should accept a private development with over 300 housing units . Keep in mind the developer want to change EXISTING building codes so they know darn well going in that this is NOT what the area is supposed to be. Why should commercial developer be granted an exemption for a totally commercial building totally out of character with the neighborhood for which there is no direct benefit to the Cubs ? This is not the office space or extra space THEY need . Suppose another developer says well they got a variance and buys a block of land a few blocks east or north etc and says well we now want to build a 6 story mixed commercial space with more housing/density than allowed by the zoning code and since you let those guys do it across from Wrigley , we should have the same right. This is why there are codes and rules especially in residential neighborhoods though this being Chicago they have certainly been violated in the past by corrupt politicians. I hope this won’t be a case of that.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Oct 24, 2009 12:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I see your point...
and notwithstanding my above posts, after living in Portland for as long as I did, I have the mentality that it’s worth giving a lot of thought and deliberation to how city expansion is handled. (I reference PDX because it’s widely considered to be among the best planned cities in the nation and is used as a model in MPA/City Planning courses).
My natural inclination is very pro-business, but hopefully this isn’t something that is rushed through without giving due diligence to a coherent plan for the area.
by CubsWin!Oregon on Oct 24, 2009 12:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Zoning codes are changed and variances allowed in other cases
and the project is putting residential units in a space where there aren’t any now. It is also presently zoned for mixed use – not strictly residential – now. As for it being done with the help of a corrupt politician – I’d think there is going to be enough public scrutiny of the development’s process that this won’t be a case of that either.
by doofus cubs guy on Oct 24, 2009 2:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
On that last point trust me Chicago politicians care far more about money than people.
The recent parking meter fiasco is proof of that as is the I believe now cancelled for financial reasons Children’s museum in Grant Park and the privatization of Midway airport. The good thing here is that projects involving Wrigleyville tend to progress very slowly and I believe much of that has to do with Mayor’s noted dislike of the Cubs. Not being facetious here.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Oct 24, 2009 2:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You do have a point there.
I happened to be in that area today so I drove around that block. There is already a large building on that block — it’s an AT&T office/routing center that is six stories tall. The new structure wouldn’t be any taller than that, and adding a couple hundred residents and (maybe) 200 hotel guests a night during the baseball season would not, to me, add too much traffic in the area. Many people who live around there don’t own cars, and it seems to me that people who bought units in that building — where monthly parking is likely to be expensive — would probably be people who’d ride public transit.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Oct 24, 2009 2:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That AT&T bldg is on Sheffield, right?
I was just in the area as well – had to get a Big Gulp to celebrate the Buckeyes’ victory…
On the Clark side, the Goose Island brewery building is 5 stories tall at street front with a 6th story set back a bit. On top of that and a little farther back is a much smaller brick ‘tower’ (maintenance/electrical maybe?) which puts total height at about 7 stories.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Oct 24, 2009 2:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, that's on Sheffield.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Oct 24, 2009 2:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think the planners expect an empty hotel in the off season.
Adding 600 more folks on a daily basis will be a stress. If you are paying $1700 a month for an apt there is a good chance that will not be riding public transit or that even if you do you might have a car. Anyway these are issues which will be endlessly discussed in what I am sure will be a heated and lengthy process.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Oct 24, 2009 2:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The hotel won't be "empty" in the offseason...
… but, obviously, there’s far less traffic in the area when there’s no ballgame.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Oct 24, 2009 2:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
not to quibble over your math (well maybe just a little quibble) and
I don’t have a definite answer but rather a guess that 135 apartments plus 137 hotel rooms -would rarely add up to over 600 people – not sure about the types of apartment units and average hotel room capacity on a daily basis but to get over 600 you’d need an average of at least 2.2 persons per ‘unit’ – with the hotel all booked up and the apartments all rented.
by doofus cubs guy on Oct 24, 2009 3:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Plus...
… 40,000 people regularly go to Cubs games, and do create congestion, but it clears up pretty fast after games.
Adding another 600 people to a busy city neighborhood would probably go mostly unnoticed.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Oct 24, 2009 3:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The point is that is not just during game time
and in neighborhood planning you need to consider a number of things when you add that many folks particularly the full time residents . There has been tons of construction in the area in the last decade plus but not a lot of single buildings away from the lake that add that many people. From the perspective of a Cubs game 600 folks ( ok say 540 as I think 2 per unit/room is reasonable) it is nothing , from the perspective of neighborhood planning it is huge. However you describe it this is a very large year round commercial developement in an area that is zoned residental ( as well as small business). I will cede to the views of Ballhawk and other folks who LIVE there but the idea of steamrolling over current zoning regulations just to build commercial developement that is not directly related to the Cubs does not appeal to me. Why should a private developer who wants to built a hotel, restuarants, shopping, luxury apartments accross from Wrigley get any special consideration ? When the Cubs start working on the Triangle building or other plans for their needs I will be a little more sympathetic but not about this.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Oct 24, 2009 3:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I quibble with you yet again.
The block on which this project is intended to be built is NOT zoned residential, nor has it ever been so.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Oct 24, 2009 3:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am not an expert on zoning rules
but the company states up front they need to get a variance in the current zoning as it is not
zoned for what they want. That maybe issues of density and height but the fact is they want to change the current rules to build what they want.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Oct 24, 2009 5:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not an expert on zoning either but I'd
bet that variances happen in the ‘East Lakeview’ area at a similar rate as they do in most other areas of the city that have sites with the potential for commercial success – so it’s not like this project is looking for something out of the ordinary. It’s part of the process – and they have made significant changes to the original idea.
by doofus cubs guy on Oct 24, 2009 5:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'll try to keep an open mind on this as things move along...
…but any time I hear a proponent use the “but we’ve already down-sized the development” argument, I’ll just laugh. The original proposal was so out-of-whack, of course they were going to have to make significant changes.
That’d be like Scott Boras asking for $50M/yr for Holliday and then coming back with ok, how about $25M – see how much I’ve down-sized?
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Oct 24, 2009 5:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
but it's part of the process - as the other
side is saying ‘no we must preserve the parking lot forever’ – or – to use your analogy its like Dallas Green offering someone like Andre Dawson a piddling half a million a year – oh wait
by doofus cubs guy on Oct 24, 2009 6:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Commercial development?
Is it really? It’s a condo building where people live. And a hotel where people stay and then leave. And small businesses where people work and shop. I don’t think we’re talking about an atypical commercial development here. We’re not talking about a steel mill.
I think Wrigleyville could use a development like this. The key is for the Wrigleyville residents to get benefits from the delopment – tax dollars allocated for school and park improvements, road repairs, etc.
Unless you think the 7-Eleven is top shelf.
by RiskyBusiness on Oct 24, 2009 3:45 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
There ares tores, hotels restuarants, residental buildings etc in Wrigleyville
The size of this one is out of character with the rest of the area which is why per above they need to get a variance /change in the current zoning. If you are so sure the residents of Wrigley would like this development than by all means put it up for a vote. Most of them have more than enough of the above. I would pretty much bet that if you live on Sheffield across from the proposed developement your property values are going down. I don’t mean to imply that the residents of one block should veto a project but I do resent the idea that this development must be just great for the tens of thousands of people who already live there and they should like it or move. Let’s see how the process plays out but again since the developers require a change in the zoning to proceed the residents of the area should have a whole lot of imput.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Oct 24, 2009 5:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
There are also stores in the area
as well as tores. Sorry my already crappy ability to spellcheck has been dying.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Oct 24, 2009 5:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You say...
especially in residential neighborhoods
… but really, what about that intersection is residential? You have bars and restaurants, a mcdonalds, businesses, a major sports stadium, a major mass transit stop…
It is a commercial area now, like it or not.
Dum spiro spero…
Follow me on twitter or else: @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Oct 25, 2009 8:19 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm curious...
How will they be able to pull off building the hotel, while preserving the area as much as possible? I assume that will be in the building plans.
Second question: if the hotel has a parking garage, will people be able to park in it for Cubs home games?
OT: I’m a health care worker, and I may have been exposed to H1N1 last night … and I have not been able to get the vaccine for H1N1 due to the shortage of doses available.
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy, and taste good with ketchup!
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Oct 24, 2009 1:24 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Take care of yourself.
Recipe for Disaster;
C'mon Cubs, hurry up and blow this so I can relax.
by Bluekoolaide on July22, 2009 3:08 PM CDT
by sue369 on Oct 24, 2009 1:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks.
I took every precaution I could, and I asked a doctor about whether or not I will get it. It looks like I may avoid it … this time.
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy, and taste good with ketchup!
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Oct 24, 2009 6:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well at least you WANTED the vaccine
Unlike some of the moran health care workers in New York who went to court so they would not be “forced” to take it.
Hey they don’t have to take it if they don’t want to but then they had better stay away from patients etc they might infect until the summer.
Hope all is well.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Oct 24, 2009 6:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It looks nice but
then I don’t live there so what do I know?
Recipe for Disaster;
C'mon Cubs, hurry up and blow this so I can relax.
by Bluekoolaide on July22, 2009 3:08 PM CDT
by sue369 on Oct 24, 2009 1:29 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
My input from the East Coast
Since I only get to Wrigley every few years, my take is probably not as valued. However I think the Wrigley area could use some improvements. I think widening of the sidewalks is a must. Adding some different looks, a hotel, Cubs museum, different places to eat would add to the area.
I think this could be done with a reasonable agreement with all parties, but hell things that seem to have common sense always have headaches.
by Grockcubs on Oct 24, 2009 2:11 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
So what happens if the Cubs move from Wrigley in a few years?
"Fasten those seatbelts"-Pat Hughes
by katie casey on Oct 24, 2009 3:20 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
They won't.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Oct 24, 2009 3:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am puzzled
I live in East Lakeview and my building is 57 floors tall. Is that not considered a downtown style tall building?
by hmlee on Oct 24, 2009 5:03 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
No. Assuming you live near the lake, that would be considered a lakeshore style tall building...
…of which there are many up and down the entire shoreline in Chicago, not just Lakeview.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Oct 24, 2009 5:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
One of the things that is wonderful about going to Wrigley
is that it is in a “neighborhood”. The area has character. I worry that this looks somewhat sterile and that it might change that feeling.
I don’t live near there anymore, so I don’t feel like I should talk though. Ah-sometimes I really miss living in the city. But being right between Wrigley and Miller Park has it’s benefits.
"Fasten those seatbelts"-Pat Hughes
by katie casey on Oct 24, 2009 6:16 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I lived in the mid late 80s on Magnolia between Waveland and Grace
about 4 blocks from the park. What is amazing about Wrigley is that how easily it does coexist with a thriving residential
neighborhood. I still have friend’s in the are. I mean you can open your window and hear crowd noises if you want but
an hour after a game you would hardly notice anything unless you lived right next to the park or bar. I love Wrigleyfield but
Wrigleyville is a lovely area even without the Cubs.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Oct 24, 2009 6:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right, and the point is...
… that it COEXISTS. There are residential parts of Wrigleyville/Lakeview that you’d never know you were within 3 or 4 blocks of a major league ballpark — quiet and peaceful most of the time.
There’s the bustling center of the area, Clark & Addison. Adding this project, to me, wouldn’t seem to be out of character with the commercial sections of the neighborhood.
I’m not being an apologist for this guy, but he really does seem to want to work with the community — unfortunately, there are people there who will say “no” to anything that’s not already there. To me, that’s just as wrong.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Oct 24, 2009 7:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I doubt he wants to work with community
but I am sure he knows he has to. I do think it is in fact out of character with the community but neither of us live
there so I am happy to let the residents weigh in. For the record I think there is a big difference between a bunch
of one story bars and restaurants with some apartments on top to something of this scale and I also see no reason to give the guy special consideration because it would be built across from Wrigley Field. I don’t personally see massive need for more luxury housing, more restaurants, more shopping on this scale at least but again should be decided in a process with the input from the residents given a major voice. Sure there are people who say no to anything but if you think the majority of residents would actually support the project get them to put it on the ballot. We are not talking about a much needed school, electric sub station, park etc that because it is for the greater public good might justifiably be given a waiver on existing zoning laws and residence objections. It’s a commercial development so let them play by the rules and see what happens.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Oct 24, 2009 8:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think they are playing by the rules and going through
the proper channels – which doesn’t necessarily mean putting it to a vote. I’m not sure if I’m in favor of the project and/or would ever frequent any part of it (other than the 7-11!) if it was built – but I do think they are playing by the rules that exist.
by doofus cubs guy on Oct 25, 2009 9:48 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also...
… he doesn’t “have to” work with the community. That particular property is zoned commercial, so the buyer can pretty much do what he wants with it. In fact, I think he HAS been sensitive to some of the community’s concerns and is working with Ald. Tunney’s office.
This development is a little large, but hardly “downtown” overscale.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Oct 25, 2009 10:11 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The parcel is NOT zoned for his plan
It clearly states he needs to get a new zoning designation , B-5 and I have no idea what that is. My best guess is that the current plan is either too high or too dense for the current zoning. If the project did not need a change than indeed he would not need to work with community but he needs to get the zoning commission to agree to the change so I imagine there will be some heated meetings. Of course as pointed out developers usually get their way in Chicago. I would love to see the list of contributions Mr. Nash will be make to alderman around the city.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Oct 25, 2009 12:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well...
… maybe you should find out what zoning designations are before you make comments on something like this. It’s probably simply so he can build the residences and the hotel where before, there were simply bars and restaurants.
Your conspiracy theories don’t wash. This project will benefit the entire area, not to mention bringing in a high-profile hotel group that will pay property taxes, thus maybe LOWERING MINE.
I’m all for this project.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Oct 25, 2009 12:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
OK...
…. I actually went and read what they are asking for. The property is currently zoned B3-3; the Chicago Zoning Code says about that:
17-3-0104-A The primary purpose of the B3, Community Shopping district is to accommodate a very broad range of retail and service uses, often in the physical form of shopping centers or larger buildings than found in the B1 and B2 districts. In addition to accommodating development with a different physical form than found in B1 and B2 districts, the B3 district is also intended to accommodate some types of uses that are not allowed in B1 and B2 districts.
17-3-0104-B Development in B3 districts will generally be destination-oriented, with a large percentage of customers arriving by automobile. Therefore, the supply of off-street parking will tend to be higher in B3 districts than in B1 and B2 districts.
17-3-0104-C The B3 district permits residential dwelling units above the ground floor.
17-3-0104-D The B3 district is intended to be applied to large sites that have primary access to major streets. It may also be used along streets to accommodate retail and service use types that are not allowed in B1 and B2 districts.
17-3-0104-E The B3 district can be combined with the dash 1, dash 1.5, dash 2, dash 3 or dash 5 bulk and density designations (see Sec. 17-3-0401).
The area is already “dash-3”. All they want is “dash-5”, so they can build the hotel and multiple dwelling units on the propert. As I said above, this is likely to INCREASE the property tax base — and in an era when the city can use all the money it can get its hands on, this project should be welcomed, not protested.
Jessica, with all due respect, you’re wrong about this one.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Oct 25, 2009 12:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If anyone really wants to know more about this...
… you can find the Chicago zoning ordinance here.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Oct 25, 2009 12:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
How am I wrong Al?
I said they require a variance in the zoning code, they do. I said they variance likely had to do with height or density well gee I consider 340 housing ( hotel & residential) density. They need to get a serious change in the rules to do this. I hope you are not suggesting that just because a development might pay more taxes it should be automatically be allowed to change zoning rules. How bout a nice 340 unit hotel & retail complex on your residential block ?I am sure it would bring in more taxes but doubt you would care for it. I am not suggesting the corner of Clark & Addison is the same as the block you live on but it is in a RESIDENTIAL neighborhood and the people in that area should be heard. They are not all nay sayers but like I said folks who live on the block of Sheffield directly facing the new complex are not going to be thrilled and you absolutely need to examine its impact on the entire surrounding area year round. Just because it gives some extra hotel rooms for visiting Cub fans is no reason to cheer for it. Let’s see how it plays out .
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Oct 25, 2009 12:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're talking about two different things.
It is NOT a residential block. No one is suggesting putting this project on a residential block.
The block they want to modify is a COMMERCIAL block. I live a block off two major streets which have high-density residential/commerical projects. So does your mom, in fact. We live in a big city, not a quiet suburban area.
No one is suggesting changing residential zoning to commercial here.
We can discuss this when I see you. But you’ll still be wrong.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Oct 25, 2009 12:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It is a residential neighborhood and the project REQUIRES a zoning change
Let’s see if you have a 2 story bldg with a restaurant the ground floor on Clark that is zoned B-3 can the owner decide to build a 5 story hotel/bar because it already zoned for business ? There are different kinds of business zoning for just this reason. I read through a few articles of the neighbors objections and most of it boils down to, if this guy gets away with it what is to stop many similar developments on Southport, Addison, Clark , Sheffield etc which have parcels with similar zoning. They also note that the Cubs have already changed the density of the Triangle building and eliminated much of the promised parking after agreeing to that when they got the bleacher expansion. For some odd reason the residents are suspicious of developers or the local politicians to protect them.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Oct 25, 2009 1:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I just don't see why you have a problem with this.
It’s not as if you are putting this in a small town with farms and idyllic little lakes and gardens.
Chicago is a big city. Wrigleyville is a busy area. Adding a few hundred more people isn’t going to hurt anything. Really.
And my property taxes — and your mom’s — might even get a bit of help from this.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Oct 25, 2009 1:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Depends
Maybe you can squeeze size 10 feet into size 9 shoes and it won’t hurt at first. But try walking for awhile and it very well could.
This isn’t a trivial, oh-by-the-way, just-a-little-bit of an expansion project. This is a significant effort – in size, impact and precedent-setting.
It’s clear that you’re motivated by lower taxes and Big Gulps. Some of us have a little more to worry about.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Oct 25, 2009 1:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I dunno.
I could see the issues if the developer was threatening, say, to demolish all the homes on Sheffield or Kenmore or Wilton and build this project smack in the middle of a residential area.
But that’s not where it’s going. That area is already a busy commercial area. Honestly, I doubt you’d even notice it was there once it was built.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Oct 25, 2009 2:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, and P.S.
I spend a lot of time in Wrigleyville, not just at ballgames. I’d feel the same way if I lived where you do.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Oct 25, 2009 2:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Look at the renderings again...
you’re saying you wouldn’t notice all that?
Essentially what the developer is doing is building up. Doubling up. Bunk beds. Whatever you want to call it. He’s taking the existing commercial space and adding several layers to it while keeping the same footprint.
Yes, it already is a busy commercial area. But you can’t deny this project will make it busier. If you do, then you’re just as bullheaded as Doggie – just in an opposite direction.
The real question is can the immediate area handle it? The developer can commission all the “studies” he wants – and the neighborhood groups can do the same. Still won’t provide an answer. Won’t know until it gets built. And I’ve seen enough of Alderman Tunney’s MO to know that this is a fait accompli.
If the immediate area can absorb the impact – that’s great. More, more, more for everybody – let the gluttony commence. If it can’t, then you’ll have overflow into the surrounding area. And that’s where I live. And that’s why I’m concerned.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Oct 25, 2009 8:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Are you suggesting Alderman Tunney
favors developers over residents ? I am shocked, shocked .
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Oct 26, 2009 12:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Morans don't like vaccines?
It’s nice to know I not the only one who has ’bad spellcheck" days.
by ChicagoRobb on Oct 24, 2009 7:34 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
...

Dum spiro spero…
Follow me on twitter or else: @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Oct 25, 2009 8:26 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
COULD THE AREA USE ANOTHER HOTEL ???
Not to say how tall it has to be ect . We enjoy staying in Wrigleyville . ( And try to respect residents property ) ,,,,There does seem to be a shortage of hotel rooms in Wrigleyville . ( When the Cubs are in town ) . We always see at least 2 games and enjoy the restaurants and shopping that the area offers . I beleive another hotel would be a great and close option for Cub fans .
by cubs north on Oct 24, 2009 7:36 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Most likely....
… visiting teams wouldn’t stay there as it would be too small for most team traveling parties.
But I’d bet a lot of visiting broadcasters might stay there.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Oct 24, 2009 7:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
so would family and friends
of Wrigleyville residents who wish to not sleep on a couch
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
by Cubbie-Tim on Oct 25, 2009 8:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Are they
building a hotel just for Mark Grace so he can rekindle some memories?
by ChicagoRobb on Oct 24, 2009 8:18 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I COULD CARE LESS
where Mark Grace stays at . But planning a baseball trip to Wrigley is hard . If you stay in Wrigleyville lodging is limited . ( Days Inn, Inn at Lincoln Park, Hawthorne Terrace ) Some of these places are booked 5-6 months in advance . Others have sky high prices when the Cubs are at home . ( And you could spend a small fortune ), I agree with Zeke being a Cub fan from out of town can be very expensive .
by cubs north on Oct 25, 2009 6:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ugh
It is past due time the prima donna leeches of Wrigleyville get their comeuppance. They owe their extreme property values to the presence of Wrigley Field, period. And if they don’t like the area around Wrigley Field becoming more “commercialized,” then they should pack it in and move to farm country.
I really hope the Ricketts family plays hardball with the neighborhood, Tom Tunney and Mayor Daley when it comes to renovation of Wrigley. Enough of this kowtowing to the special interests.
"Cubs will win 79 to 83 games." BLou (7/21/09)
by BLou on Oct 25, 2009 2:34 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Please don't send any more people out to farm country.
They come out here because it’s peaceful and quaint, then they complain that there is no Walmart.
"Fasten those seatbelts"-Pat Hughes
by katie casey on Oct 25, 2009 2:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was wondering when you were going to chime in on this with your special brand of charm.
You didn’t disappoint – still the same [adjective redacted] BLou as always.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Oct 25, 2009 8:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The most amazing part of the preliminary drawing for me is that they’ve managed to reduce road traffic to almost nothing during the day. Very impressive urban planning.
by kevinbreit on Oct 25, 2009 8:39 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
so it is better to have Cub fans (and fans of the opposing team)
stay in areas outside Wrigleyville, so that the residents in Wrigleyville can keep a lot that is not being used empty? Doesnt seem to make much sense to me.
Sure you can complain about traffic, but this is Chicago where is there a lack of traffic, and can you honeslty know that the additional traffic will be any worse than when people from other areas are coming and going from the games?
God forbid family or friends who come into town to visit and can now stay closer to their family and friends isntead of having to stay outside Wrigleyville and have to create additional traffic traveling from another hotel to and from (any time of year).
The points made above are valid, but all seem like they are complaining about traffic in an already busy area. if you want to say that the building does not fit in with the neighborhood, well neither does Wrigley Field, so what is the difference? Wrigley does not “fit in” with a residential area, which is part of what makes it special and unique.
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
by Cubbie-Tim on Oct 25, 2009 8:44 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
This is NOT an empty lot
It is already filled with stores and restaurants and a small number of apartments. I hope your family and friends are very , very rich because it is a safe bet that the hotel will charge $300 or more a night to be across the street from Wrigley. This complex is not going to add anything a average Cub fan would want. For myself I am more likely to use the 7/11 and eat at the Salt & Pepper diner than anything in the new place. That is hardly a reason to be against it ( the size is my reason) but at least be honest about what it is.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Oct 26, 2009 12:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
$300 a night?
You’re dreaming.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Oct 26, 2009 7:48 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
During home stands, she may not be far off. Probably less than half that off season.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
by N Oakley on Oct 26, 2009 8:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes I meant on game days
Which is when folks here were saying it would be useful. I assure you I am not dreaming and I don’t imagine they
will have trouble getting it either. I was thinking that the ultimate irony might be people staying there complaining that it was too noisy.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Oct 26, 2009 8:52 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If they charge $300 a night...
… no one will stay there, because they can go downtown, pay $100 less a night, and get to the ballpark on the train.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Oct 26, 2009 9:16 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
But they would not be staying across the street from Wrigley would they ?
The hotel in Toronto charged nearly that much and it was THE BLUE JAYS ( and most rooms did not have a view) . I am very surprised you would not understand that silly rich people will pay silly amounts for things involving the Cubs. These are the same folks paying over $300 for a box seat from a broker. I expect the rooms will go largely to businessmen on a expense accounts and families who want to give the kids a special treat.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Oct 26, 2009 9:28 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, let's see about the Skydome Hotel...
… first, it’s in downtown Toronto, near other attractions besides just the stadium.
And, there are views of the field from some of the rooms — which cost far more than the rooms across the hall that don’t.
There’s no way that hotel gets $300 a night. Want to bet some more Big Gulps on that?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Oct 26, 2009 9:36 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
FYI, I just looked up Skydome Hotel rates.
A field view room for Opening Day 2010 (April 12) costs $599 (Canadian) per night.
A NON field view room for the same date is $249 (Canadian) per night.
There’s no way this hotel across the street from Wrigley Field gets $300 a night.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Oct 26, 2009 9:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It is TORONTO, Al
Vs Wrigley Field. Lots of hotels and it is not even a nice hotel but it gets a high rate . FYI Canadian and US Dollar virtually equal now. I would be happy to bet Big Gulps but where would I buy them ? As I pointed out to Ballhawk I don’t detour for them, they lose fizz.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Oct 26, 2009 9:52 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
there isn't going to be any ground breaking this offseason...
so your precious 7-11 will still be there for the 2010 season. You and Al will have all season long to pay up on Big Gulp bets.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Oct 26, 2009 9:57 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I figured that but IF the place is built
and Al realizes they DO have $300 rooms he won’t be able to pay me off. Perhaps a
Panera sandwich Al ?
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Oct 26, 2009 10:00 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Haven't you been reading the comments here?
Obviously Al and I are going to butt heads on this issue big time, but we both agree on at least one thing – when all the dust settles and everything’s built, there WILL be a 7-11 open for business. You don’t give up your company’s #1 franchise location.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Oct 26, 2009 10:06 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It is an awfully large space
Hard to imagine getting the project done without it but ultimately it is in the hands the family that owns it. Question is if it is staying why were only Sportsworld and the garage singled out as not being part of the plan.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Oct 26, 2009 10:15 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The renderings...
… show SportsWorld as part of the plan. The site also says ALL existing businesses will be offered space in the new project.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Oct 26, 2009 10:19 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
They said it but it makes no sense
Assuming they own the land I don’t see even Starbucks paying rents they would ask. Also where exactly would the complex put it’s own entrance, restaurants and high end shopping. That is just a PR stunt to claim they will keep them.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Oct 26, 2009 10:35 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
How do you know what rent they will ask?
You’re making an awful lot of assumptions.
I’m thinking more Big Gulp bets are headed my way.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Oct 26, 2009 10:50 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh C'mon Al
They will be investing tens of millions in this project . You think the commercial rents are not going to be sky high , along with the hotel rates, apt rental rates. I think you have been drinking ( or ingesting anyway) something besides Big Gulps these days.
How do you think they get FINANCING by saying sure we will charge
$200 for the hotel, $800 a month for the apartment and just slightly above the restuarant across the street ? Cause that will easily get them back those tens of millions.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Oct 26, 2009 11:08 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Look at the current economy....
… and the way these projects have been delayed, fallen by the wayside.
Yes, they will charge what the market will bear. But it won’t be downtown rents, or the storefronts will remain vacant.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Oct 26, 2009 11:51 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If the businesses are chains or company-owned franchises...
…they might be willing to be loss-leaders just for the ‘panache’ of having a store right across from Wrigley. But singular businesses won’t be in business very long if they have to pay downtown rates.
As Al pointed out, I think all the existing businesses will have the chance to re-up if they want. Of course, some may not want to if the rates are high – especially the individually-owned bars or stores.
If that happens, I’m sure the developer will already have a list of other businesses that think they can come in and turn a profit in Wrigleyville. Think Dave-n-Buster’s, House of Blues, Champions, TGIF’s, Lids, etc. Some might, most won’t. But that’s true all around Chicago – constant turnover in the bar/restaurant scene is pretty common.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Oct 26, 2009 2:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Happened in my neighborhood
Used to be a variety of small stores on a Bleeker Street for about a 6 block range. Heart of what is now the very trendy West Village. Only 3 remain and I think they may own their buildings. Instead we have FIVE Marc Jabobs stores, 3 Ralph Lauren, 2 Coach and many other designers. I was told by my landlord that none of them can really make money at the rents charged but the owners don’t care ,they want the exposure.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Oct 26, 2009 2:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's New York.
This is Chicago.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Oct 26, 2009 2:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You think the Borders on Michigan Ave is profitable?
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Oct 26, 2009 3:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why is that a relevant question?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Oct 26, 2009 3:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
chains will pay high rents for visability
even if that specific store loses money.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Oct 26, 2009 4:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I got the impression you thought...
…the practice of big retail brands keeping a store open even if they were losing money may happen in New York, but not in Chicago.
While in general, that’s a pretty sound (and obvious) business philosophy, there are situations and places where companies are willing to eat the loss if they feel it benefits them in other ways.
The Mag Mile is such a place here in Chicago. Wrigley Field could turn into another.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Oct 26, 2009 5:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's not staying untouched. It's staying as part of the development project.
It will most likely be one of the storefronts in the new structure. Maybe in the same location, maybe they’ll be Addison facing.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Oct 26, 2009 10:20 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Per above good luck on that
May be the highest grossing 7/11 in the world but that is not likely to get it a space in an upscale HIGH RENT commercial space. Why don’t you go on over for a Big Gulp this week and find out what they say ?
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Oct 26, 2009 10:36 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The point isn't that it's Toronto...
… which, PS, is a really nice tourist city that gets people to go there for other than Blue Jays games. The point is that the field view rooms get more than twice the rate that the non field view rooms do — which are right across the hall from each other (I know — I stayed there once).
The $249 room rate that they get at the Skydome Hotel for the NON field view room would, to me, be about the HIGHEST rate the Wrigley hotel could get. I just checked the rack rate for the downtown Westin on Michigan Avenue — which, IIRC, is where a lot of visiting teams stay — the lowest rate there for a random weeknight next month (Nov. 11) is $279. There are higher rates, but those are mostly package deals.
And that’s DOWNTOWN CHICAGO, on Michigan Avenue.
There is NO way that a neighborhood hotel, no matter how close to Wrigley Field, gets MORE than that.
Jessica, you’re on for the Big Gulp.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Oct 26, 2009 10:25 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Al, you should probably save your pennies for that Big Gulp.
The current economy has crushed hotels and they have a high vacancy rate downtown and are gerrymandering rates to try to get people in.
A hotel at Clark & Addison won’t have the Drake or Sutton Place, etc. a block away for competition. However, even through all this, some of these downtown hotels are getting full rates during certain conventions.
You two need to set the dates to review. First home opener, Father’s Day homestand or whatever after the hotel opens.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
by N Oakley on Oct 26, 2009 10:33 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Al, you've got a big gulp coming your way
I completely agree with Al on this. If the economy holds where it is or only slightly improves, it is highly unlikely this hotel would be able to get $300/night during the season regardless of its’ location. Who would stay here for $300/night when you can get a room on/near Michigan Ave. at the Hyatt, Westin, Marriott, Hilton, etc… for under $100/night? Hotels are hurting with the downturn in business travel and are therefore offering some ridiculous deals/rates to boost occupancy. These guys would not be very successful if they ignored the market conditions and simply priced themselves at a premium due to their location. The only thing that could change this is the economy improving, which very well may happen before this hotel opens. I read somewhere that the Chicago hotel occupany rate has fallen below 60%, which is awful by industry standards. Heck, I can even get an ocean-front one-bedroom suite at the Maui Marriott for $159/night. That’s a little better location than across the street from Wrigley. No offense Wrigley, you know I love you!
by chuckworth on Oct 26, 2009 3:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Even if the economy improves before this hotel opens...
… they won’t get $300 a night, not for the rack rate, anyway.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Oct 26, 2009 3:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
They will get it on game days
I guess I can fall off the wagon and treat myself to Big Gulp or two or rather be
treated to them by you.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Oct 26, 2009 4:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
and if they get $300 more power to them
you live close enough to WF that the nightly cost for a room is a moot point for you
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
by Cubbie-Tim on Oct 26, 2009 7:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with you on room cost, disagree on neighborhood impact.
The block in question contains pretty run down buildings, dumpy storefronts and ticket brokers. Most of the buildings are flush with the sidewalk and allow minimum space for pedestrians.
Provided any new structure is no taller than the future proposed triangle building and the new structure pushes a little and creates more sidewalk, I’ll have a hard time being offended.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
by N Oakley on Oct 26, 2009 9:29 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It appears that your conditions are being met by this group.
Again, I’m not trying to be an apologist for them, but the opposition to this strikes me as completely unfounded.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Oct 26, 2009 9:39 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'll bet it is completed before the Triangle Building too
by doofus cubs guy on Oct 26, 2009 9:56 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That is the whole point if you read the neighborhood group's
objection. The Çubs want to build something far higher than the current code . The neighborhood groups correctly in my view see the hotel project as a stalking horse that allows taller than code buildings. Worth noting that the Cubs have already significantly changed the original Triangle building proposal which the presented when they got the bleacher expansion approved. Shockingly it is now taller, more commercial and has less parking. Hmm those silly paranoid neighbors.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Oct 26, 2009 10:13 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't find the block rundown at all
Startingly uncommercial in a quaint way which is probably explained by the guy wanting an excuse to build on it. On the Addison side you have Sportsworld, another small sports store, the garage ( which supposedly will not be part of the project) Starbucks & 7/11. There is a broker hawking on the street usually who has an “office” on the 2nd floor of one the buildings which of course have apartments. On the Clark Side you have the Salt & Pepper Diner, some comedy club restaurant and a few bars restaurants I can’t recall. There is a broker cart on small empty lot as well. It is a perfectly nice block though frankly I never expected those small businesses to survive anyway.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Oct 26, 2009 9:58 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I understand and was mostly referring to the section along
Addison. The immediate surroundings of Wrigley have slowly improved and I believe a hotel near the park is a worthwhile amenity.
As for commercial versus uncommercial, you and I see that block differently. I see it as one of the few almost completely commercial blocks in the neighborhood and won’t shed a tear if it is altered.
I’m also assuming there will be no loss of retail/commercial space. Street frontage will remain leasable and wanted. Widening the sidewalks might even make me interested in walking south on Clark from the park.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
by N Oakley on Oct 26, 2009 10:12 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It is a commercial block
Though there are apartments on the upper floors. I meant to say more like it was unexploited to the degree that you have those smallish stores & restuarants as oppossed to big commercial developement as planned. Many years ago a company I work for had the chance to buy the bldg the garage is in for storage which they needed. Would be worth a fortune if they had bought it.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Oct 26, 2009 10:19 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

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