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Cubs Spring Training Site Search Update: Why Naples Is The Wrong Choice

Today on cubs.com, Carrie Muskat posted this long article interviewing two of the major players trying to get the Cubs to move to Florida. Craig Bouchard is the co-founder of Esmark, Inc., who lives part of the year in Hinsdale and part of the time in Naples and Gary Price is a city councilman in Naples, Florida.

Both seem earnest and almost idealistic about their chances. But it was this passage that caught my attention:

Why would the Cubs leave the Valley of the Sun for the Sunshine State? Check the stats.

"The best answer I can give you," said Price, a Naples city councilman, "is I got the feeling from the meeting we had with the Ricketts family and Crane was that they want to win a World Series. Sixteen out of the last 19 World Series winners train in Florida."

Think about that, Cubs fans.

"I'm a numbers guy," Price said Tuesday. "If 16 out of 19 are World Series winners that train in Florida, that's a compelling argument. There are a lot of esoteric reasons behind why they'd be in Arizona or Florida, but if I'm starting from the beginning -- and I look at it this way for the Cubs is that, 'We have a tremendous history in Arizona for 40 years. What does the next 40 years look like?'"

Star-divide

Price speaks like a true politician. "I'm a numbers guy," he said. Okay, Gary -- let's look at the numbers.

Going back 19 years -- let's say he included this year, although he wasn't clear -- the only World Series winners who trained in Arizona were the Diamondbacks (2001), the Angels (2002) and the White Sox (2005). Sounds like a landslide, right?

Not so fast, Mr. Councilman. Keep in mind that until 1998, only eight of the then-28 teams trained in Arizona. So just on sheer numbers -- you're a numbers guy, right? -- 71% of World Series winners should have come from Florida training camps. And it's true that not until after 1998, when there were more teams moving to Arizona, did the World Series winners start coming from there. So maybe we should make the cutoff 1998, when the White Sox and Diamondbacks increased the Arizona contingent to 10 teams. Since 1998 -- 12 years -- three World Series winners from Arizona spring camps.

In fact, it won't be until spring 2010 -- next March -- that for the first time, an equal number of teams will train in Florida and Arizona. And why is that? Because teams have been making an exodus from the East Coast to the Valley of the Sun. The Indians, who left Arizona in 1993, returned last year. Why do they do this? Because the March weather is consistently better in Arizona than it is in Florida, and the teams are in much closer proximity to each other. After the Diamondbacks and Rockies finish up their final season in Tucson in 2010, every Arizona spring training camp will be in metropolitan Phoenix -- an hour's drive or less for every team. I've mentioned this before, but the closest spring park to Naples is the Twins' Hammond Stadium, 30 miles away. Next closest is the Red Sox' City of Palms Park in Ft. Myers -- 35 miles away. After that you're talking about Bradenton and the Tampa/St. Petersburg area, up to three hours' drive each way.

Why would you want to subject your players to that?

But in reality, let's talk not about the World Series winner -- because we all know that once you get into the playoffs, it's a crapshoot -- but instead, how many playoff teams trained in Arizona as compared to Florida in recent years. Let's limit this to the last 15 years, since the current playoff structure began, 1995-2009. That's 15 seasons, 120 playoff teams. I count 38 of 120 (32%), and given that the Arizona teams were only 29% of the total from 1995-97, 33% of the total from 1998-2002, 40% of the total from 2002-2008, and 47% in 2009, that sounds about right. Also consider that 23 of the 120 qualifiers were the Yankees and Red Sox, 19% of the total, although the Yankees and Red Sox are only about 7% of the total MLB teams. Point being: it is just as easy to train a playoff team in Arizona as it is in Florida.

That's another issue the Cubs should consider. They are currently the jewel of the Cactus League, the #1 draw. If they go to Florida, they become #3 behind ESPN's favorite teams. Is that really what new ownership wants? To become third banana?

The Cubs have trained in Arizona since 1952, except for a one-year detour to Long Beach, California in 1966. They are part of the fabric of life in Mesa and the Phoenix metro area. The Florida people may have been told that an offer would "be considered", as Cubs President Crane Kenney told Bouchard. But when push comes to shove, I believe the Mesa people will meet or better the Florida offer. The Cubs have made the playoffs three of the last seven seasons training in Arizona, and look like they're on track to become a perennial playoff contender. The Cubs belong in Arizona.

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I'd think the Cubs would abandon...

…a large number of snowbird fans in AZ if they left. I’m sure FL has its fair share of transplant Cub fans, but I doubt they’re concentrated in one area like they are in AZ.

"I always tell the truth -- Even when I lie"

by calicubfan on Nov 11, 2009 8:23 PM CST reply actions  

I think they should go back

to Catalina. I’d go watch!

"This next song... it's about the White Sox. It's called: F*** Em'." - Eddie Vedder

by PacificCub on Nov 11, 2009 8:33 PM CST reply actions  

no kidding, that would be sweet.

Didn’t Wrigley own that island?

Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living."

by DC Cubbie on Nov 11, 2009 11:10 PM CST up reply actions  

Correct.

Which is why the Cubs trained there.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Nov 12, 2009 7:49 AM CST up reply actions  

And now the Catalina Conservancy owns 90% of it

And I own the rest of it!!! just kidding. Go visit the island, especially some non-Avalon parts, and you’ll understand how just 26 miles from LA you can have massive Island Fever.

"This next song... it's about the White Sox. It's called: F*** Em'." - Eddie Vedder

by PacificCub on Nov 12, 2009 4:11 PM CST up reply actions  

I can see how.

It’s pretty far offshore, far enough so that you can’t see the coastline, right?

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Nov 12, 2009 5:58 PM CST up reply actions  

half and half

you can usually see it from Palos Verdes, provided there is no fog. It was foggy all morning yesterday, but by afternoon I could see it from El Segundo.

It’s not the easiest place to get to and from, but not impossible either. Either $50 for the ferry or have your own boat…

"This next song... it's about the White Sox. It's called: F*** Em'." - Eddie Vedder

by PacificCub on Nov 12, 2009 6:02 PM CST up reply actions  

As much as I'd love having the Cubs in FL...

I agree with everything Al said. Leaving Arizona is the wrong move. Weather, proximity and the World Series odds are all dead on. Their history in Arizona is enough reason to not abandon the state. It was pretty depressing reading stuff about the Dodgers leaving their home in Vero Beach.

Florida is definitely a Yankee/Red Sox state. There’s Cub fans scattered around and when the Cubs play the Marlins or Rays there’s a huge number of Cub fans. That could be due to the fact that Cub fans travel to Florida, not necessarily living in Florida. Would a move to Florida bring new Florida residents? Maybe.

Having Cubs/Yankees or Cubs/Red Sox would be interesting but since the teams aren’t rivals the luster would wear off pretty quick. Cubs/Cardinals might be fun but c’mon, it’s spring training.

It would be eight hours driving if the Cubs were scheduled to play the Braves, who train at Walt Disney World in Orlando. Four there, four back. On a personal it’s even further for me if I wanted to go to Naples. It would almost be better if the Cubs moved to Daytona, where the Daytona Cubs have a nice following. Plus, that would be a lot closer for me :-).

Do the right thing, stay in Arizona.

by FloridaCubsFan on Nov 11, 2009 9:15 PM CST reply actions  

In the Dodgers case

leaving Florida was the right thing to do. Now, their fan base is only 3 to 4 hours away. Vero Beach was fine for the Brooklyn Dodgers but it was not applicable for the LA Dodgers. They stayed there only due to the lengthy ownership of the O’Malley family.

Some might say Florida is closer to Chicago, but anybody who has visited or lives in Phoenix realizes that so many Chicago transplants that used to head to Florida or California are now heading to AZ.

It’s a major mistake to leave AZ, should that take place.

by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Nov 12, 2009 10:56 AM CST up reply actions  

I hope the Cubs end up in Florida

that way I’d be actually have a chance to drive there and watch instead of having to consider bankrupting myself to go to AZ.

Blue mountains high .. Blue valleys low
I don't know which way we will go ..
One summer dream .. one summer dream ..

coda

ELO, 1975

by cubnational on Nov 11, 2009 9:16 PM CST reply actions  

Or consider bankrupting yourself

to go Wrigley Field, in Cicago.
It’s a viable option, ya know…

Aqui viene el Toro Venezolano, Carlos Zambrano, a batear...el lanzamiento...A LO PROFUNDOOO...NOO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NOO...DIGALE QUE NO A ESA PELOTA!! GANAN LOS CACHORROS DE CHICAGO!!

by Azul Cachorro on Nov 11, 2009 9:23 PM CST up reply actions  

*Chicago

Aqui viene el Toro Venezolano, Carlos Zambrano, a batear...el lanzamiento...A LO PROFUNDOOO...NOO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NOO...DIGALE QUE NO A ESA PELOTA!! GANAN LOS CACHORROS DE CHICAGO!!

by Azul Cachorro on Nov 11, 2009 9:23 PM CST up reply actions  

One positive about Florida

It is a better place for evaluating players. The thin air in Arizona makes it more difficult for pitchers, especially guys who throw a lot of breaking balls and off speed stuff. The infields in the Cactus League are pretty hard, too. The conditions there really favor the batters. Frankly, I don’t really care where the Cubs play. I’m a bit put off by the Cubs brass demanding a significant capital outlay by a a local government in a time of great economic hardship. But I did want to throw this out there.

by dmlichte on Nov 11, 2009 9:41 PM CST reply actions  

This is the only logical point I can agree upon for wanting to move. Good note DML.

"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks

by dtpollitt on Nov 11, 2009 10:27 PM CST up reply actions  

At the same time...

… the thin air and hard infields are well known to managers and coaches. They can easily discount for the effects; the better weather all-around in AZ makes up for it.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Nov 12, 2009 7:51 AM CST up reply actions  

got to disagree

Sorry, Al, but the better weather is a totally different thing. It may lead to better enjoyment overall, but it doesn’t balance out the evaluation. A manager knowing that the air is thin doesn’t help evaluate a curve ball pitcher and too often we see a guy like Micah Hoffpauir dominate in the Cactus League.

Again, I don’t care where the Cubs play spring ball and I am not advocating the move to Florida, but the evaluation thing is, from a player development and evaluation standpoint, a big deal.

by dmlichte on Nov 12, 2009 9:20 AM CST up reply actions  

There are plenty of players...

… who dominate spring training, whether Florida or Arizona, and don’t perform when the regular season starts.

I just don’t think it’s as big a deal as you do. If it were, why have seven teams left Florida for Arizona in the last ten years?

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Nov 12, 2009 9:25 AM CST up reply actions  

actually, player evaluation should rank pretty high on the list...

…because when you get right down to it, isn’t player evaluation the whole idea behind spring training, at least in theory?

However, reality has this uncanny way of overthrowing theory pretty much every time, and the reality is here that Arizona got their shit together in the last ten years and put together very attractive packages money-wise while Florida sat on their ass. Dollars will win, just about every time.

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Nov 12, 2009 9:57 AM CST up reply actions  

If you're evaluating

talent based on spring training, you’re making a mistake. Most established veterans aren’t even trying. The ability to hit Brandon Webb after he throws ten straight fastballs doesn’t translate to an ability to hit his sinker during the regular season.

If you decide who the 25th man on the roster is or the last pitcher in the bullpen during spring training, that’s fine. But all major decisions should have been made in the off-season based on last year’s stats.

I honestly believe you should pick your spring training facility on what makes you the most money. Spring training used to be about getting fat players into shape, but today’s players stay fit all year round. Now it’s just about getting to know your teammates and putting on a show for the fans.

by Josh Timmers on Nov 12, 2009 1:38 PM CST up reply actions  

well...
Spring training used to be about getting fat players into shape, but today’s players stay fit all year round.

Mr. Soto would like to have a word with you, as soon as he finishes his gravy-coated twinkie.

by CubsWin!Oregon on Nov 12, 2009 3:48 PM CST up reply actions  

That sounds awful

Yet I’m still intrigued.

"This next song... it's about the White Sox. It's called: F*** Em'." - Eddie Vedder

by PacificCub on Nov 12, 2009 4:12 PM CST up reply actions  

Balance

It is a balancing act. There are clear advantages to training in AZ – as you pointed out. There are also advantages to training in FL.

Eamus Ursuli!

by WGNstatic on Nov 12, 2009 9:42 AM CST up reply actions  

Big deal?

Thats in the eye of the beholder. As I said, I don’t care where the Cubs play spring ball. I’d prefer they stay in Mesa until the economy cleans itself up a bit and Mesa actually has the money to spend on it. However I did feel that this argument needed to be made. There are a lot of factors at play here, including fan enjoyment and player travel. But as far as player evaluation, Florida is a better place for that and its been acknowledged as such. I’m not saying this should cause the Cubs to move or other teams not to move from Florida to AZ. I don’t care that much. But its worth mentioning.

by dmlichte on Nov 12, 2009 9:51 AM CST up reply actions  

Early season number analysis

Obviously looking at number of World Series is silly. The number I would find more interesting would be a comparison of early season success. Do teams from one state or the other start of better?

Eamus Ursuli!

by WGNstatic on Nov 12, 2009 9:45 AM CST up reply actions  

Two points:

First, I think it’s important to realize how much research Al put into disproving this stupid statement about the champions coming from Florida. This is why BCB is so great: Al, as always, has put a lot of thought into this; clearly quite a bit more than the man that made the claim. And this is why you’re one of the most knowledgeable baseball minds writing about the Cubs today. It didn’t take all that long to check this, did it? And it shouldn’t have taken two blowhards that much time in Florida, either, right?!

Correlation is not causation, obviously, and this man is hanging onto every thread possible, and for one sole reason: The Chicago Cubs are one of (if not THE) most bankable spring training teams in all of baseball (and probably of all pre-season professional teams!). Moving to Florida would be silly, we are the ace card in the Arizona league and to leave would be a shame to fans and to the Cactus League.

Dan

"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks

by dtpollitt on Nov 11, 2009 10:26 PM CST reply actions   1 recs

once again Al, great post

I think you convinced me that it is in fact a better move to stay in Arizona if for nothing else, the extra time to practice instead of travel time.

"God watches over drunks and third baseman."- Leo Durocher

by BelieveinBlue2314 on Nov 12, 2009 12:25 AM CST reply actions  

I'm not a numbers guy.

Besides convincing me that AZ would be better, you’ve convinced me to be even more wary of numbers than before. Seems like people can manipulate them to back up whatever they want. I’m sure some people can do that with words too, but numbers have a way of sounding smart.

I agree with you although I wouldn’t care if the Cubs can played in Timbuktu if that’s what is best for the team.

"Fasten those seatbelts"-Pat Hughes

by katie casey on Nov 12, 2009 7:11 AM CST reply actions  

With you 100% Al!

This is only the beginning....Lou Pinella end of '07 season and Chicago Transit Authority (the band when they were really good).

by mrcubsfan on Nov 12, 2009 8:14 AM CST reply actions  

I would never see another Cubs spring training game again

If they moved to Florida.

Arizona is great, numerous teams right there, possibilities of day night multiple venues. Its a great vacation.

Its a funny story actually.

by Wad on Nov 12, 2009 12:21 PM CST reply actions  

I have never seen a Cubs spring training game

Please move to Florida and make my dreams come true. BTW, there are a ton of Cubs fans in the State of Florida.

by Marmaduke1 on Nov 12, 2009 12:54 PM CST reply actions  

Fla spring training

Two reasons for Florida. Distance from Chicago. Realistic playing conditions.

Driving distance is about half of the drive to Arizona.

This was brought up by Lou, but Florida gives a more realistic feel for the players. Manager and coaches can better evaluate the talent. Curve balls drop, and the hitting isn’t like using an aluminum bat.

I remember when the Cubs did a barnstom trip to end Spring Training in Florida a few years back. The Cubs looked like they were weeks behind the competition. If you want the Cubs to be better, you better hope they move camp to Florida.

by Randyj on Nov 12, 2009 5:23 PM CST reply actions  

Driving

Not sure what you mean by this comment, since the players aren’t driving back to Chicago from either location.

As for fans, FL is closer, but then you’re going to have to do a lot driving and possibly hotel stays when you are in FL if you wan’t to catch any number of games in a row.

As for evaluating, I think it is a wash. In AZ, the play is affected and could skew what a manager is seeing. On the other hand, in FL you have many more days lost to rain, so development and assessment are also influenced by less playing time.

by TC Cubby on Nov 12, 2009 5:32 PM CST up reply actions  

Driving distances from Chicago, per Google Maps.

Chicago to Mesa: 1814 miles
Chicago to Naples: 1328 miles

Not even close to “half”.

And TC Cubby is right. Players aren’t driving, for the most part. Plus, a lot of Cubs already have winter homes in Arizona.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Nov 12, 2009 6:00 PM CST up reply actions  

Lou's comment.

He had many spring trainings in Arizona with the Mariners. Many of those teams made the playoffs.

The “better evaluation” or “more realistic feel” is a red herring.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Nov 12, 2009 6:01 PM CST up reply actions  

a red herring for what?

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Nov 12, 2009 6:51 PM CST up reply actions  

well yeah, of course he does - same as you just enjoy the better weather and shorter driving times in Arizona

but that doesn’t take away from the fact that better evaluation is more likely to happen in Florida. Baseball folks (besides Lou) have been saying that for quite awhile.

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Nov 12, 2009 9:12 PM CST up reply actions  

Got any cites for that?

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Nov 13, 2009 7:26 AM CST up reply actions  

Well, the esteemed dmlichte for starters... ;-)

here and here

And I did read it again in one of the recent articles about Cubs ST plans – it wasn’t from Lou though it may have been the reporter. I don’t have any other specific cites but I don’t know dmlichte (at least I don’t think I do) and he doesn’t know me so that’s at least two people that have heard/read this baseball adage. And I suspect there are probably others here on BCB that have as well.

Do you disagree with the basic premise – that better evaluation is more likely to happen in Florida than Arizona?

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Nov 13, 2009 10:19 AM CST up reply actions  

Yes, I disagree with it.

“Player evaluation” — how much of that is really done in spring training, anyway? Veteran players are getting timing back, pitchers are working on stuff that they’d never do during the season, etc.

Maybe a rookie or two can be “evaluated” during the spring. I’d never make it the basis of where to build a complex, though.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Nov 13, 2009 11:24 AM CST up reply actions  

Who cares what Lou wants?

He is only going to be here one more year anyway! What he wants should be completely irrelevant.

by mijhtims on Nov 13, 2009 1:04 PM CST up reply actions  

Another good point.

Further, the man who is likely going to be the next Cubs manager has an offseason home… in Arizona.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Nov 13, 2009 2:30 PM CST up reply actions  

you crack me up, Al...

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Nov 13, 2009 2:51 PM CST up reply actions  

Mesa v Naples .....

Have went to numerous ST games in Lakeland, Ft. Lauderdale and Vero Beach . It appears that in Florida folks show up last minute ….( I had a family complain the entire game about the costs at Disney ) …..They were fans of nothing but it was cheaper . I also remember one March in Lakeland we wore winter jackets . So I do have my concerns about the weather . Maybe I have lucked out the weather in Mesa has always been great. The short distances between ball parks is a plus in Mesa . Florida is much closer for me and would be cheaper . But if I had a vote it would be stay in Mesa ……

by cubs north on Nov 12, 2009 6:56 PM CST reply actions  

Don't think so Slamdog

The Cubs will stay in Arizona …. I have all my friends flying in to AZ in March .. To watch either the Cubs and or the Sox .. I am a very popular person at that time of year . Tickets , car , my guest rooms ,, my food , my beer ,,

by CUBFANINAZ on Nov 14, 2009 10:58 AM CST up reply actions  

ESPN

If the Cubs can get to a world series and win one they might become one of ESPNs favorite teams too.

by KyCubsFan on Nov 14, 2009 10:57 AM CST reply actions  

Yabbut...

… they’d still be third behind those East Coast teams.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Nov 14, 2009 10:59 AM CST up reply actions  

Usually not till the first week of January.

Unless you’ve heard different this year.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Nov 14, 2009 11:07 AM CST up reply actions  

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