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Chicago Cubs relief pitcher Carlos Marmol celebrates his closing of a game for the 2009 Chicago Cubs. Can the Cubs expect to see more of this in 2010? (AP Photo/Nam Y. Huh)

More photos » by Nam Y Huh - AP

Chicago Cubs relief pitcher Carlos Marmol celebrates his closing of a game for the 2009 Chicago Cubs. Can the Cubs expect to see more of this in 2010? (AP Photo/Nam Y. Huh)

The Chicago Cubs are relying on Carlos Marmol to be their closer in 2010. Is this a good idea?

Well, Marmol is incredibly tough to hit.

2790_p_season_full_5_20091006_medium

(via www.fangraphs.com)

Marmol was tough to hit primarily due his ability to get strike outs at an incredibly high rate.

2790_p_season_full_1_20091006_medium

(via www.fangraphs.com)

In addition to striking out batters, Marmol also doesn't give up many home runs.2790_p_season_full_4_20091006_medium

(via www.fangraphs.com)

So he's a great pitcher, right? He doesn't give up many hits or home runs, and he strikes out lots of opposing batters. I think everyone reading this blog knows Marmol's main issue. Control. Follow me past the jump to find out more...

Star-divide

 

Here is Marmol's BB rate chart:

2790_p_season_full_2_20091006_medium

 

via (www.fangraphs.com)

Yikes. That line is literally off the charts.

 

Marmol has been bad the last few years when it comes to getting his pitches into the strike zone. (Note the rest of the graphs are not from fangraphs. They're my own creations. I replicated their style so things would match up nicely.)

   Marmol_strike_pct_medium

Unfortuantely, it gets worse. Marmol was pretty good at finding the strike zone in 2008. But he had a low (for him) walk rate rate in 2007, a year in which he was just as bad at finding the strike zone as he was in 2009. So what caused the discrepancy between 2007 and 2009? Well, take a look at the rate at which Marmol got opposing hitters to swing at pitches out of the zone:

Marmol_ooz_pct_medium
 

So now we see that over the last 3 seasons, there were 3 different versions of Carlos Marmol. In 2007, Marmol missed the zone a lot. However, he was able to compensate for that by getting hitters to swing at his pitches out of the zone. In 2008, fewer batters chased his bad pitches, but he managed an above-average ability to find the strike zone. Then in 2009, he missed the plate and hitters weren't swinging at his pitches out of the zone.

What can we expect out of him in 2010? I consider his control in 2008 to be an aberration. As such, in my opinion this question boils down to whether Marmol exerts some... cough... control over whether or not batters are swinging at his pitches out of the zone. I took a quick look at the break on his pitches over at fangraphs, and didn't see any trends that jumped out at me. So I grabbed the pitch FX database and ran a query on the locations of all his pitches from each of 2007, 2008, and 2009. First, I'll show you the location of his pitches in the vertical direction. The following chart shows the number of pitches at each height, with the strike zone shown as dashed lines.

Marmol_pz_medium

Hrmm... If anything, Marmol appears to exert better than average control in the vertical direction. He does this by avoiding putting his pitches low and out of the zone. What about the horizontal location? Well, here's the same plot for the horizontal axis, from the catcher's perspective (in other words, a right-handed batter would stand on the left side of this chart):

Marmol_px_medium

This is where Marmol's control issues show up. Pay particular attention to the right side of the figure. Marmol throws a lot more pitches to the right of the dashed line (outside to a right-handed batter) than the average pitcher. Perhaps more damning than the "normal" outside pitches are those that are -- as Harry Doyle would sarcastically say -- "just a bit outside." Marmol regularly misses the outer edge of plate by a foot or more. The average pitcher throws pitches a foot or less outside 19.5% of the time. Marmol did this 27.9%, 24.4%, and 20.9% of the time in 2007, 2008, and 2009, respectively. In other words, Marmol has an issue in that when he misses he often misses by a mile, and this allows other hitters to easily identify which pitches to swing at.

To be honest, these numbers scare me quite a bit. I don't see a ton of variation in his pitch location distributions from year to year, other than the spike in strikes in 2008. I fear that spike was an aberration. And in all 3 years, he showed an increasing tendency to throw the ball waaaaay outside. If that wasn't enough, teams have written the book on him. They know that hitters should be able to easily identify the pitches that are far off the plate, allowing them to take balls and swing at strikes. The bottom line is that Marmol either needs to put the ball close enough to the plate to entice hitters to swing, or he needs to put the ball over the plate more often, like he did in 2008. Unfortunately, I don't see any reason to think either of those things will happen in 2010.

Cubs fans should stock up on the Pepto Bismol... and someone should warn Ron Santo to take 9th innings off next year.

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I'm off to bed...

I’ll be in and out throughout the day to reply to comments in this thread.

by shawndgoldman on Nov 12, 2009 4:38 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

2009?

The Chicago Cubs are relying on Carlos Marmol to be their closer in 2009.
What can we expect out of him in 2009?

You mean to say 2010 I would think.

Well, I never heard it before, but it sounds uncommon nonsense.
- The Mock Turtle, Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll -

by eths on Nov 12, 2009 4:51 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Or this was a very slow post stuck in hypersleep...

Now only 12,859 on the "Cubs Season Tickets Waiting List"...

by Zeke on Nov 12, 2009 6:17 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

But then how would we have his 2009 stats...

WOAAAAAAAAA

"If I were playing third base and my mother were rounding third with the run that was going to beat us, I'd trip her. Oh, I'd pick her up and brush her off and say, 'Sorry, Mom,' but nobody beats me." ~ Leo Durocher

by Musicdude10 on Nov 12, 2009 8:26 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

LOL

I fixed it.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al on Nov 12, 2009 8:34 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

lol...

thanks!

The funny thing is I made the same mistake at the end of the post, and caught that one.

by shawndgoldman on Nov 12, 2009 9:10 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

♪♪♫ Time meant nothing, never would again, Let's do the Time Warp again! ♫♪♫

Well, I never heard it before, but it sounds uncommon nonsense.
- The Mock Turtle, Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll -

by eths on Nov 12, 2009 9:24 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I found for the most part when he closed this year

That we saw the Marmol of 2007 and 2008.

This is a long shot but maybe he lost his motivation when he wasn’t given the closer’s role in Spring Training. I know that no player should ever have that happen to him but that’s been my theory all along. He was much much better once Gregg was relieved of closing duties.

Yes Marmol had a couple blown saves but he was much much better.

by ak123 on Nov 12, 2009 7:50 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Great Analysis

Thanks for doing this. I like how precise the information is.

Good thing they don’t have metrics this precise where I work.

by mph3 on Nov 12, 2009 7:52 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Good stuff....thanks

You have to wonder if when he is missing the zone “by a mile” it’s becuase he isn’t confident with his slider at the time. He needs to trust that fastball more and get ahead.

by JB 23 on Nov 12, 2009 8:02 AM CST via mobile reply actions   0 recs

From what I remember

Marmol’s struggles have had more to do with his fastball than his slider. His slider is usually all over the place, that’s why people swing at it (and still miss when it actually is a strike). His fastball has great movement too but it needs better control to set up his slider

People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett

by berselius on Nov 12, 2009 8:14 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I can split that up.

I’ll try to do this later today or tonight.

by shawndgoldman on Nov 12, 2009 9:10 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks, shawn

Interesting to see that he’s pretty much missing right with both pitches in a similar way

People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett

by berselius on Nov 12, 2009 12:07 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, and it's a relatively consistent miss.

If you move the Mamrol distributions by 4 inches, he’s got decent control. Hmmmm…

by shawndgoldman on Nov 12, 2009 12:59 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I'd like to see a graph...

…showing how many times his name is pronounced MAR-mol, mar-MOL, and however Santo decides to pronounce it.

Being a Cubs fan is something you're born into... Nobody would be a Cubs fan by choice. - Me

by Scruff0082 on Nov 12, 2009 8:11 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

The question is...

… how do you fix this issue?

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al on Nov 12, 2009 8:12 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Trade him to Detroit for Curtis Granderson

Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.

by nji232 on Nov 12, 2009 8:21 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Then who closes?

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al on Nov 12, 2009 8:33 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm intrigued by Caridad.

Maybe because he reminds me of Marmol. Not sure if he could close right now but I think he migt be the answer, just maybe not for 2010.

However, teams have gone with young closers and have been success. As I recall, Huston Street won the ROY as the A’s closer.

Hey, it's a new century!

by cowsarecool220 on Nov 12, 2009 9:10 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I would love to see Caridad given a shot.

He was a starter in the minors, right? Besides giving up the longest foul ball I’ve ever seen to Troy Tulowitzki, I have good memories of him and the numbers back me up.

He hasn’t shown great things as a starter in the minors, but he’s only had two years in the minors. Either put him in the ML bullpen now or try to see if he can improve as a starter in AAA.

http://www.fivetoolfans.com

by mykalmorgan on Nov 12, 2009 9:48 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I think he has a real shot at the ML bullpen in 2010.

I’d like to see that. I was impressed by him, and also by Justin Berg.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al on Nov 12, 2009 10:40 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I think you figure that out in ST...

or you try to sign someone as a FA. I don’t think Marmol is the answer to that question. So you’re not losing much by trading him.

by shawndgoldman on Nov 12, 2009 9:13 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Pick up Billy Wagner off the scrap heap

Have Guzman do it, sign Mike Gonzalez or Rafael Soriano, let Caridad do it.

Marmol isn’t near lights out enough as closer to make me hesitate in dealing him for a player of Granderson’s ability.

Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.

by nji232 on Nov 12, 2009 9:33 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Exactly.

You go from having a closer with horrible control and no CF to having no closer and a very good CF.

by shawndgoldman on Nov 12, 2009 9:49 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

If the Cubs could do a straight-up trade of Marmol for Granderson

There’s absolutely no reason not to do that.

http://www.fivetoolfans.com

by mykalmorgan on Nov 12, 2009 9:57 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I think it would be something more like...

Theriot and Marmol (and a prospect?) for Granderson.

by shawndgoldman on Nov 12, 2009 10:00 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Or maybe Fontenot.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al on Nov 12, 2009 10:40 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

The problem with Fontenot

is that the Tigers supposedly have a 2nd base prospect coming up.

by shawndgoldman on Nov 12, 2009 1:01 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

in that case

No.

"Manny Trillo is coming in to pinch run. You know, for a lot of teams, you would pinch run for Manny Trillo." - Harry Caray

by Archie on Nov 12, 2009 3:43 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm torn on Castro...

on one hand, he’s a prospect with both a high floor (because of his defense) and a very high ceiling (because of his success at a young age for his levels of play). On the other hand, he’s still a prospect and as such is a long shot for realizing his ceiling. It’s quite possible his value will never be higher than it is right now, as he’s in the middle of tearing up the AFL.

That said, I’m not sure I’d trade him, either. He’s a great defensive player at a premium defensive position. And his bat has potential. You don’t find guys with that combination often.

by shawndgoldman on Nov 12, 2009 4:35 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

the decision to keep of trade Castro might reveal...

whether the Ricketts feel pressure to win in 2010 at all costs or whether they have the patience (and stomach) to wait for a youth movement (presumably led by Castro, Vitters, etc.) to crystalize.

by Andronicus on Nov 12, 2009 5:34 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Probably not...

but i’ll take a look at a couple suggestions. The idea of moving him to the right half a foot or so is intriguing.

by shawndgoldman on Nov 12, 2009 4:36 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

It would be more interesting, to me,

to see a more specific comparative metric than the MLB average. I don’t know how hard this would be to get, but I am thinking that if you could graph the MLB average of just closers, then I would guess some of the deltas between Marmol’s numbers and the cumulative closer’s numbers would be less significant.

"The Cubs are due in sixty-two." - #14

by BatCubFan on Nov 12, 2009 8:53 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

That's a good point.

I’m not sure how to do that, though. Maybe I could just limit things to the 9th inning? If I did that I would also do a fairly good job of sub-selecting those appearances when Marmol was the closer. That would also address the issue ak brought up above, namely that Marmol seemed to do better as the closer.

by shawndgoldman on Nov 12, 2009 9:12 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

In the admittedly small sample size we have from the last month and a half of the season

Marmol could hardly be said to do much better.
Gregg was removed as closer on August 18th.
From that time on, here are Marmol’s numbers
Again, this is only 17.2 innings, but his BB/9 rate went up as did his K/9 rate as compared to the rest of the season. I could include the other ten games throughout the year he finished prior to being named “closer,” but from that time on, every game in which he pitched he also finished.

His seaason ERA: 3.41
ERA as closer: 3.06

Not much difference. The problems weren’t solved when he became “closer.” Hopefully, the Cubs will be able to spend a lot of time looking at tape, or talking to him, or something to figure out how to get him to command his stuff. Because even when he throws strikes, the results will be better than Marmol as a wild man.

http://www.fivetoolfans.com

by mykalmorgan on Nov 12, 2009 9:43 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Again, this is only 17.2 innings, but his BB/9 rate went up

That’s the problem…. His lower ERA in that span was a fluke. He walked 13 batters and hit another in 17.2 IP. That’s 7.3 free passes per 9 innings. (If you don’t include the HBP it’s still 6.8 BB/9). Those numbers are way too high. I don’t think anyone can be a successful closer with a walk rate that high.

by shawndgoldman on Nov 12, 2009 10:08 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed.

http://www.fivetoolfans.com

by mykalmorgan on Nov 12, 2009 3:57 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

That's such a strange shift...

I wonder if Marmol literally shifted himself 4 inches to the right on the rubber what would happen. Even if it’s just psychological… I’d like to see it.

What I’d REALLY like to see is Marmol learn a cutter or a splitter. That takes a hell of a lot more time and effort than sliding over a few inches on the rubber though.

"This next song... it's about the White Sox. It's called: F*** Em'." - Eddie Vedder

by PacificCub on Nov 12, 2009 11:32 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

That's a really good idea...

and I’ve got a test for it. If it’s his position on the mound that’s causing his problems, the pitch location should be correlated to the release point. We can calculate that from the pitch FX data. I’m at work now, but check back tonight. I’ll try to produce a chart for you.

The other way to do this is to have Soto just move the target over by 4 inches. If you want Marmol to paint the outside corner, have Soto put his mitt over the heart of the plate. If you want Marmol to throw it on the inside corner, have Soto set up way inside.

by shawndgoldman on Nov 12, 2009 1:03 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm half-kidding when I ask this...

…but I’m also half-serious.

Do they have charts like this that show what Soriano swings at vs rest of ML? I gotta think his blue line would also be a classic Harry Doyle just a bit outside chart.

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Nov 12, 2009 9:03 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

"They" don't have that...

but I can make one of those. I’m doing a piece on Soriano for Al’s annual. I’ll probably include something similar to what you’re asking for, if not this exact chart. I’ll probably do it in two dimensions though, with “hot zones” and stuff.

by shawndgoldman on Nov 12, 2009 9:40 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

well, I guess I'll just have to buy a copy when it comes out... ;-)

Al, make sure Shawn gets credit for this sale!


Braun: (Ringing the sale bell) Another sale, Mr. Costanza. Chalk me up on the big board.
George: (Inquiring about the chalk board) What is this?
Frank (Drawing a zero under George’s name) This is your lagging. Good work, Braun.
Estelle (From another room) Good for you, Lloyd!

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Nov 12, 2009 10:06 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

lol...

I think that’s the first thing I’ve ever gotten someone else to buy.

by shawndgoldman on Nov 13, 2009 1:41 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

A little late, but here you go:

There’s almost no correlation between release point and final pitch location. But it’s still worth trying, as there is a lot of scatter in both data sets. It may also help to have Soto move his target over a few inches so that when Marmol misses he’s where you want the pitch to be.

by shawndgoldman on Nov 13, 2009 3:12 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

wow

That looks like a chart I produced for work today…

The lack of correlation itself is kind of interesting. Seems to me that if your release point doesn’t dictate your pitch location EVER, you have a pretty big mechanical flaw, and are headed to the DL sooner rather than later. Or you need to loosen your grip.

Very interesting analysis – thanks Shawn.

"This next song... it's about the White Sox. It's called: F*** Em'." - Eddie Vedder

by PacificCub on Nov 13, 2009 8:38 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

IMO Marmol is all about confidence

It seems like anytime he meets adversity he goes into a mental slump and his pitching suffers. Rich Harden’s debut in 2008 when he got booed really set him back I think, but then he got named to the All-Star team, had a solid inning, and next thing you know he’s back to being good.
This season the stupid waste of time WBC he was the goat when he blew a save and then he came back to find out he wasn’t the closer. You could see in his pitching he just wasn’t the confident, almost cocky, Marmol we are used to. Then he got the closer position and was back to being really good.
Now the numbers might not back me up on this theory, but I do think with a prolonged period of time as the closer Marmol will be really good because he’s in the big position and has the spotlight on him that he wants.

Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.

by nji232 on Nov 12, 2009 9:36 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Let's assume you're correct...

then there’s a positive feedback loop here. Once Marmol misses the zone (and he will miss the zone), his confidence will go down. According to this line of thought, that will cause his ability to decline, and he’ll miss the zone more… which will cause further erosion of his confidence and even worse control.

That’s not the type of pitcher you want to go into the season penciled in as your closer.

The other problem with this theory is that the numbers don’t back it up. Marmol still exhibited horrible control as the closer last season. His topline numbers (like ERA) were better but that’s probably due to a small sample size more than anything else.

by shawndgoldman on Nov 12, 2009 10:18 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Bingo

I don’t really care for Marmol even though he has great stuff. You just don’t know if you’re going to get Meltdown Marmol when you really need him to be Lockdown Marmol.

And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.

by Ace Venom on Nov 12, 2009 10:45 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Nice job, Shawn. This is very illustrative

And frieghtening.

Piniella kind of hedged on Marmol late last year . . . maybe they would consider a swap for Granderson.

I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT

Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson

by Shanghai Badger on Nov 12, 2009 10:23 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

2 years ago we talked endlessly on brian roberts coming to the Cubs. Last year it was peavy. I think this year we will talk and talk and talk about Granderson and he will not be traded to the Cubs.

by drodd on Nov 12, 2009 12:07 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

You're probably right.

The chances are never great that the Cubs will acquire any one player. That doesn’t mean they aren’t trying.

by shawndgoldman on Nov 12, 2009 1:04 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Interesting, and worrying.

It makes me wonder how detailed pitching coaches graphs, stats, player bio’s must become, nice work.

Lou and Larry need to maybe bring it back to the basics, and throughout ST have Marmol focus on throwing strikes more than getting hitters out.

Chicago Cubs baseball is on the air...

by slocs55 on Nov 12, 2009 2:05 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

What's with the spike?

In the middle of the distribution of the MLB avg horizontal pitch locations, there is a spike in what would otherwise fit a Normal distribution very nicely. That makes me doubt the data, since such a spike is probably unlikely.

Shawn, any explanation? Perhaps batted balls are counted as those?

by jbau on Nov 13, 2009 2:52 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

This demonstrates Lou's hesitancy to let Mármol close last year.

Now the Cubs have no other choice. It’s not like you can find a decent closer easily out there. Mármol is the best option for now.

Excellent job, Shaun.

I’d like to see a split of his control last year separating his outings after he was appointed as closer. He appeared to pitch better then.

by Fraggin Judge on Nov 13, 2009 5:28 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

I'm a little late to this thread...

…but I’ll chime in and say great analysis, too. It certainly jibes with my fuzzy memories from this past season in which I see many, many of Marmol’s pitches missing outside – badly. So badly that even the free-est of freeswingers wouldn’t bite.

I’d also add my support to the notion stated above that the Cubs shouldn’t consider Marmol untouchable in any trade considerations. I still find it doubtful they’ll deal him, however, as it seems like many (most?) teams are hesitant to deal away a closer once they’ve settled on one.

Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.

by dat cubfan daver on Nov 13, 2009 11:43 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Nice post.

Just wanted to let you know that even a numbskull like me understood it.

Although Marmol sometimes scares me, I still like him and hope he stays on the team.

"Fasten those seatbelts"-Pat Hughes

by katie casey on Nov 13, 2009 2:00 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

if he

stops hitting and walking so many people it will be. lets just hope he does not come down with latroy hawkins disease.

by NOMAR on Nov 14, 2009 8:05 AM CST reply actions   0 recs


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