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Around SBN: Knicks Beat Lakers With Familiar Strategy

Plus, commentary from Jim Callis.

about 2 years ago Alyellontoppscard_tiny Al Yellon 85 comments 4 recs  | 

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Hmmm

Cashner with the best fastball and slider in the organization. Callis still sees him as a closer.

Lots of middle IF prospects. Not sure if I support B. Jackson over Vitters, or Lemahieu in the top 10.

Fontenot (fon-te-no): Cajun for "scrappy"

by cubzfan on Nov 16, 2009 2:26 PM CST reply actions  

Agreed. He seems to have a serious crush on B. Jackson. 2nd is 4 or 5 spots to high.

Plus he lists him as being the best power hitter which I would disagree with as well.

by thehat34 on Nov 16, 2009 3:11 PM CST up reply actions  

Interesting in 2013

Their line-up for 2013 was interesting. For those too lazy to click on the link:

Catcher Geovany Soto
First Base Derrek Lee
Second Base Starlin Castro
Third Base Aramis Ramirez
Shortstop Hak-Ju Lee
Left Field Josh Vitters
Center Field Brett Jackson
Right Field Kyler Burke
No. 1 Starter Carlos Zambrano
No. 2 Starter Jay Jackson
No. 3 Starter Chhris Carpenter
No. 4 Starter Ryan Dempster
No. 5 Starter Randy Wells
Closer Andrew Cashner

Not sure I can wholeheartedly disagree with anything… just interesting.

Also as one other aside, they have Fuld listed as the best defensive OF… even though he no longer has rookie status, as mentioned in another thread.

by fsuapollo on Nov 16, 2009 3:23 PM CST reply actions  

I don't see Derrek Lee still in a Cubs uniform in 2013.

Does anyone else?

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Nov 16, 2009 3:43 PM CST up reply actions  

I'd bet another solid season gets him a nice extension

He’s close to being one of the better Cubs ever, not HOF great or anything, but he is starting to define this era of the Cubs.

Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.

by nji232 on Nov 16, 2009 3:54 PM CST up reply actions  

this era being post-Sammy

Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.

by nji232 on Nov 16, 2009 3:54 PM CST up reply actions  

If he gets 100 more HR and continues hitting around .300

He could possibly have his number retired by the Cubs, IMO

Wrigley Bound in the Summer of 2010

by Chanman25 on Nov 16, 2009 3:58 PM CST up reply actions  

He'd have to be elected to the HOF for his number to be retired.

That’s the policy the Cubs have unless the Ricketts change it.

(They made an exception for Ron Santo due to his exceptional service to the organization.)

Hey, it's a new century!

by cowsarecool220 on Nov 17, 2009 1:16 PM CST up reply actions  

Have the Cubs ever announced an official policy?

If so, I don’t remember it. But I think your analysis is correct.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Nov 17, 2009 4:09 PM CST up reply actions  

well he'd have 400 HR, roughly 2600 hits

great career, but kind of like Andre Dawson when it comes to HoF

Wrigley Bound in the Summer of 2010

by Chanman25 on Nov 17, 2009 9:15 PM CST up reply actions  

Dawson should be in....

… and maybe this year, he gets in.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Nov 18, 2009 7:40 AM CST up reply actions  

and Maddux who is not in yet

but was included with Fergie in retiring 31. I believe the rule is loose due to 1/3 of the flags being exceptions

baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out

by Cubbie-Tim on Nov 19, 2009 1:30 PM CST up reply actions  

Well Maddux is first ballot.

No doubt.

Randy Wells. A product of the Roy Halladay School of Pitching, located in Toronto, Canada. Possible relocation.

by Cub Style on Nov 19, 2009 6:42 PM CST up reply actions  

I plan to personally hunt down

any HOF voter who does not vote for Maddux. He should be UNANIMOUS.

"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim

by Doggie Stalker on Nov 20, 2009 10:19 AM CST up reply actions  

I'd pay to watch you do that.

You’re right, but there’s always one or two jerks who leave people off because they feel no one should be first-ballot unanimous.

If anyone should have been, Cal Ripken should — and even he wasn’t.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Nov 21, 2009 8:11 AM CST up reply actions  

some also vote

“against” a player from a rival so to speak, or against a player who they didnt get enough interviews from, etc. voting for all the HOF’s is a joke, since too much is based on personal feelings towards the player and not enough on the players actual career

baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out

by Cubbie-Tim on Nov 21, 2009 3:26 PM CST up reply actions  

I agree

but seriously I don’t think anyone did not like Maddux . Of course they might hold it against him if he took their money in poker which he defintately did with both players and media.

"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim

by Doggie Stalker on Nov 22, 2009 10:02 PM CST up reply actions  

unless another teams beat writers

has players on the same ballot, that also happens.

no one in their right mind should not vote maddux, but watch 1 or 2 will. the same poeople who didnt o vote for dawson, raines, santo, and so on

baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out

by Cubbie-Tim on Nov 25, 2009 5:13 PM CST up reply actions  

Except none of those guys was a slam dunk

More like guys who did not vote for Ripkin & Gwynn. I am still hopeful Maddux breaks that “curse”. I don’t think anyone questions his ability on the field and he had a great rep off the field as well. We shall see.

"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim

by Doggie Stalker on Nov 29, 2009 2:36 PM CST up reply actions  

i know and agree

was just pointing out that the team rule is loose about it all

baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out

by Cubbie-Tim on Nov 21, 2009 12:29 AM CST up reply actions  

What will he be, around 40 then?

But I could actually see him staying around if he’s still productive til that age. 2013 would be the last year I think he would be on the team.

And what’s with Vitters in LF? Soriano’s still under contract until 2014. I don’t see him retiring or being traded..

Wrigley Bound in the Summer of 2010

by Chanman25 on Nov 16, 2009 3:55 PM CST up reply actions  

38.

He was born in 1975.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Nov 16, 2009 4:34 PM CST up reply actions  

I've got a tough time seeing this as well

That said, a strong year and it’s going to make it sort of hard for Hendry to not give him, say, a 2 year extension if he wants it, so who knows. The system doesn’t have a first baseman ready to take over, and the top first base prospect might be our top third base prospect (Vitters). Ridling could work his way further up the attention chain if he has a strong year in A+.

by toonsterwu on Nov 16, 2009 4:11 PM CST up reply actions  

nope

My guess is that Aramis has moved over to first by then, possibly with Vitters at 3rd.

by dmlichte on Nov 16, 2009 4:12 PM CST up reply actions  

It's possible...

… that the NL will have the DH by then, which might give D-Lee a shot at sticking around.

But then, Alfonso Soriano would also be a DH candidate by then.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Nov 16, 2009 4:34 PM CST up reply actions  

Rumors I've heard.

It will very likely be a bargaining chip in the next labor negotiation.

A lot of owners are leaning toward it to avoid injuries like the ones that happened to Z and PV last year.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Nov 16, 2009 5:00 PM CST up reply actions  

Oh great

So managers throughout baseball’s job will get easier. The DH sucks. I think the AL should get rid of it.

by Mulhollandmania on Nov 16, 2009 6:05 PM CST up reply actions  

I hate the DH

but I think it’s here to stay, unless management can give players a huge gain elsewhere, which I don’t forsee at the moment. It creates positions for older guys.

by toonsterwu on Nov 16, 2009 6:31 PM CST up reply actions  

Agreed.

I hate the DH too, but the “temporary” experiment with it in the AL has now lasted 36 years. I think it’s inevitable.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Nov 16, 2009 7:37 PM CST up reply actions  

i think it gives the AL a pretty big advantage, giving out more AB during the season

i have been long against the DH, but if it helps us win a title, i am all for it.

Bob Brenly on Leo Nunez "Dan Uggla just saved Nunez’ life because Koyie would break him into a million pieces"

by Zakh on Nov 16, 2009 8:24 PM CST up reply actions  

The DH is inpure

The AL added the DH to raise the offense, at the same time MLB squeezed the strike-zone.

Pitchers have a better chance of being hurting while fielding their position vs. batting.

by RiskyBusiness on Nov 17, 2009 8:09 PM CST up reply actions  

most managers

get in the way of the game anyway

by DartmouthCubsFan on Nov 16, 2009 11:32 PM CST up reply actions  

Let's just get pitching machines

and have pitchers feed the ball to it.

Put me down as less of a baseball fan if the DH ever comes to the NL.

by jerry morales rules on Nov 17, 2009 11:20 AM CST up reply actions  

Exactly. Packaged with Soriano as the

Cubs try to get Detroit to take a bad contract.

if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand

by N Oakley on Nov 17, 2009 4:40 PM CST up reply actions  

Thing about projected lineups is that

they usually make little sense, especially for big market teams, because it is extremely unlikely that any point fields a regular lineup and their rotation/closer roles with internal options. It’s usually an exercise to engender discussion.

The one thing I’d take away from that is, Lee over Castro. A fair case can be made that Lee has higher defensive potential than Castro, and that’s indicated with this projection. That said, if Castro can stick at short, I think it’ll be hard to push him off.

Btw, if 2 of our top 3 pitching prospects make it as solid starters, I’ll be pleasantly surprised. Ihope for it, but am not expecting it.

by toonsterwu on Nov 16, 2009 4:13 PM CST up reply actions  

What surprised me

was that they said Castro was the best defensive IF, but had him moving to 2B for Lee. Is that because they expect Lee to grow defensively?

Is he traded yet?

by DGU on Nov 16, 2009 9:35 PM CST up reply actions  

In general

the feeling seems to be that Lee’s potential at shortstop is greater, but Castro is a bit more ready right now. At least, that’s my take on it.

by toonsterwu on Nov 17, 2009 12:01 PM CST up reply actions  

whats interesting

is Soriano isnt in the OF… and i believe he’d still be making 18+ million a year at that point…

awesome

by DartmouthCubsFan on Nov 16, 2009 11:31 PM CST up reply actions  

whatever happened to Tyler Colvin?

He still has rookie status, and had a brief cup in September, has everyone given up on him, or is it because of TJ surgery and not playing that much field last year? I like the way he goes after the ball

Bob Brenly on Leo Nunez "Dan Uggla just saved Nunez’ life because Koyie would break him into a million pieces"

by Zakh on Nov 16, 2009 3:44 PM CST reply actions  

Colvin

made a huge jump in late July and August at Tennessee and looks to be back to where he was earlier projected when he was drafted. His strikeouts were down especially the last month and a half and his batting avg at Tennessee vs l-handers was near 320 which I think are good noting points that Colvin could be on the comeback.

by Slamdog on Nov 16, 2009 3:54 PM CST up reply actions  

He's still hanging around

at a certain point, prospects lose their luster and SNTS takes over. He had a solid year after coming back from the collision with Tony Campana. I think people want to see if anything he did is “real” in respect to whether or not he can continue this in Iowa and the bigs. The discipline is still an issue, but he’s a guy who should see solid time in the majors.

Put it this way – he’s still probably a top 15 Cubs prospect (11/12 right now for me), but the fact that two other OF prospects have passed him (Brett Jackson and Kyler Burke) speaks to the potential those two have, in comparison to Colvin, who’s ceiling isn’t as high as either guy.

by toonsterwu on Nov 16, 2009 4:09 PM CST up reply actions  

SNTS?

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Nov 16, 2009 4:35 PM CST up reply actions  

snts shiny new toy syndrome

although that was really an incomplete sentence now that I look at it. I meant to say “At a certain point, some prospects that aren’t moving up the ladder, for one reason or another, can lose their luster, and SNTS takes over, leading to some other guys passing him.”

In this case, though, Brett Jackson/Kyler Burke’s ceilings are higher than Colvin’s.

by toonsterwu on Nov 16, 2009 4:47 PM CST up reply actions  

thanks. great explanation. i might have to use SNTS

Bob Brenly on Leo Nunez "Dan Uggla just saved Nunez’ life because Koyie would break him into a million pieces"

by Zakh on Nov 16, 2009 8:19 PM CST up reply actions  

Speed, baby, speed

I forgot who it was, but someone at midseason questioned the Cubs system speed. Well … Hak-ju Lee might be faster than Tony Campana (According to AzPhil) … and Jose Valdez was rated as the fastest baserunner in the system. Dang.

Oh, as for the above, it’s not inconceivable to make the argument that Brett has the best power potential/is the best power hitter of our top prospects. I probably wouldn’t have made that argument, but Vitters power is a question, and Burke has to drive the ball against lefties more.

Another side note, I really like Burke, but best strike zone discipline? That was a bit headscratching, with some of the potential top of the lineup options in the system.

by toonsterwu on Nov 16, 2009 4:17 PM CST reply actions  

Either way

It appears the system finally has some players that actually could be viable players in the bigs.
 I just wish we had a crystal ball to actually see that lineup win 95 games in 2013

by Grockcubs on Nov 16, 2009 4:23 PM CST reply actions  

Let's go get em back!

HART! HART! HART!

/sarcasm

Randy Wells. A product of the Roy Halladay School of Pitching, located in Toronto, Canada. Possible relocation.

by Cub Style on Nov 16, 2009 8:00 PM CST up reply actions  

Worried about Josh Vitters

I wish the organization would invest special attention on his development right now, because I am of the increasing opinion he is at a major crossroads in his development. Can Jim Hendry afford another high profile flop within his minor league system? I don’t see how. And to think of those names we could have taken at #4 in the 2007 draft instead….Matt Wieters, Heyward…groan.

"Cubs will win 79 to 83 games." BLou (7/21/09)

by BLou on Nov 16, 2009 8:09 PM CST reply actions  

Having not known anything about Vitters and not being high on Soto at the time...

I was in favor of Wieters for obvious reasons, switch-hitting, power hitter that catches. But I do see Hendry’s reasoning for the J-Vit pick, I can’t say I would have made the same decision.

Randy Wells. A product of the Roy Halladay School of Pitching, located in Toronto, Canada. Possible relocation.

by Cub Style on Nov 16, 2009 8:42 PM CST up reply actions  

Hindsight will often be clear...

but I really wanted the Cubs to take Wieters. I saw a lot of him at Georgia Tech and think he’s going to be a really good player. In a worst case scenario, talented catchers are big trade chips.

Hopefully Vitters will continue to progress and make it a good pick.

by fsuapollo on Nov 16, 2009 9:17 PM CST up reply actions  

Wieters was not a good pick for an NL team

He’s twenty pounds heavier than Mauer. Mauer only caught 109 games last season. Wieters if he converted to a first baseman is nothing special. He really needs the DH. Even last season, Wieters DH’ed in 10 games while catching in 86 games. I’m not convinced he’ll stay healthy at catcher as he ages. It will take a few years to see how it plays out but I’m still not sold on Wieters as a catcher.

by rlpete on Nov 16, 2009 10:18 PM CST up reply actions  

He's heavy?

We have the guy who ate Puerto Rico behind the plate!

Randy Wells. A product of the Roy Halladay School of Pitching, located in Toronto, Canada. Possible relocation.

by Cub Style on Nov 17, 2009 6:18 AM CST up reply actions  

Heavy?

Wieters: 230
Y Molina: 230
Soto: 225 (cough listed cough)
McCann: 230
V Martinez: 210
Varitek: 230
AJ P: 230
Martin: 210
Posada: 215
B Molina: 225 (hmmmmm)

Wieters’ weight is hardly out of line with many of the “name” catchers around the game. I would say his height (6’5") “concerns” me more than his weight.

Mauer only caught that many games because he missed the first month and they can keep his bat in the line-up with the DH while still having a decent catcher (Redmond) in the game.

And if Wieters is “nothing special”… well, it was his first season. Mauer hit .294 with 9 HR his first full season (140 more ABs than Wieters). Y Molina hit .252 with 8 HR his first full season (30 more ABs).

I sure won’t say Wieters is “can’t miss”… and like any good hitting catcher, he would benefit by staying in a league with the DH… but it seems reasonably likely he’ll be a very good player for Baltimore.

As for health… I’m not sure ANY catcher will stay healthy. It is a position with inherent health risks!

by fsuapollo on Nov 17, 2009 3:01 PM CST up reply actions  

You are right on the weights

Baseball-Reference is a bit off. Wieters also just seemed bigger to me. The height though as you mention is just as much a concern.

My comment on “nothing special” referred to Wieters as a 1st baseman. Obviously if he can keep this up as a catcher then he would be something special.

We’ll have to compare picks in a few years.

by rlpete on Nov 17, 2009 5:13 PM CST up reply actions  

I

think the majority agress with you. I think the problem was that the Cubs according to a statement in Northsidebaseball that the Cubs couldnt take players like Wieters and Porcello because the Commish office had jumped on Cubs officials for giving out big money the draft before with drafts like Sammy, Huseby and others. I was reading that in 2007 the Cubs were considering Vitters, Parker the pitcher with the Diamondbacks who just had Tommy John and Doolittle who was taken quite a bit later by the A’s.

by Slamdog on Nov 17, 2009 4:18 AM CST up reply actions  

Wieters

wasn’t really an option as Hendry didn’t have the money to afford that. Heyward was actually questioned moreso than Vitters.

I’m not defending Vitters, but he wasn’t a bad pick in terms of value. Hindsight is always easy, but at the time, Vitters was a lock to go top 5.

by toonsterwu on Nov 17, 2009 12:02 PM CST up reply actions  

Right

and the idea that we’d pick someone different two years later is absurd. Not only would every team draft differently if they could see two years in the future – some of those altered drafts would end up being mistakes two years after that.

Howie Kendrick was starting to look like a disappointment mid-season, and now looks like he finally made it big. I won’t be surprised at all if Vitters’ career has a similar story.

Is he traded yet?

by DGU on Nov 17, 2009 5:03 PM CST up reply actions  

I have a baseball america subscription and with your permission Al,

i could do a bit of a roundup on scouting reports and things.

Toonster i am bubblesdachimp on NSBB.. If you want anything specific PM to get something.

4, 8, 15, 16, 23, 42

by fischisgod on Nov 17, 2009 12:21 AM CST reply actions  

Also

Get Redy for B Jax to turn heads. I am highly confident in him.

4, 8, 15, 16, 23, 42

by fischisgod on Nov 17, 2009 12:23 AM CST reply actions  

from BP's prospect chat:

Dirk (Calgary): Is projectable power wishcasting for Castro? Is that why he’s getting overrated? You seem to think he’s more Christian Guzman than Hanley, and I’ve already seem Hanley comparisons.

Kevin Goldstein: Again, I really like Starlin Castro, he’s a very good shortstop prospect. Comparing him to Hanley Ramirez is maybe the most completely and utterly unreal [expletive] ridiculous thing I’ve heard all year.

by Andronicus on Nov 17, 2009 5:38 PM CST reply actions  

Which adds to the theory that the best approach with Starlin Castro is to be patient

Lets see how he devleops over the next year or so in the minors. We might have a very exciting player on our hands. But even if he is only a “serviceable” shortstop in the mold of Christian Guzman, then that isn’t half bad either. Partaking in the hype machine for Castro at this very early stage is silliness. Especially when he is member of a Cub organization with a tragic record of failure when it comes to highly touted prospects.

Patience Grasshopper.

"Cubs will win 79 to 83 games." BLou (7/21/09)

by BLou on Nov 17, 2009 9:18 PM CST up reply actions  

If I were the Cubs the rule would be NEVER EVER pick a high schooler with a 1st or 2nd round pick

Never. ALWAYS go with the college player. ALWAYS. The Cubs have such a wretched history with top draft picks that it is almost on par with the 102 year World Series drought in ridiculessness.

The risk is less with a college player in the top pick category. So too can be the upside potential, but I’m willing to run that risk every time.

"Cubs will win 79 to 83 games." BLou (7/21/09)

by BLou on Nov 17, 2009 8:28 PM CST reply actions  

BLou's approach

is apparently J.P. Riccardi’s original approach.

Is he traded yet?

by DGU on Nov 17, 2009 10:37 PM CST up reply actions  

No, Billy Beane.

Randy Wells. A product of the Roy Halladay School of Pitching, located in Toronto, Canada. Possible relocation.

by Cub Style on Nov 18, 2009 3:12 PM CST up reply actions  

Definitely a mistake in 84

Drafted some scrawny HS kid from Vegas in the 2nd round . Boy was he a bust.

"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim

by Doggie Stalker on Nov 18, 2009 3:27 PM CST up reply actions  

In terms of draft approach

It really comes down to where you are as an organization for me. While there is validity in the fact that drafting collegians are safer, that doesn’t make for a surefire system (for reference, look at the struggles Oakland’s system had a few years ago, before Beane decided to go on another round of swaps. Also, Ricciardi’s Blue Jays never had great systems, although there were some internal issues there, from what I understand (namely, Ricciardi tore down the structure upon entering, which made it into a building up from ground process, which is that much harder).

I’m a big believer that decisions need to fit the organization. System’s need to fit the organization. Obviously, it’d be great if we had an elite team with an elite system, but that is rarely the case. Most teams that are that good will sell their pieces to try and make that push, as they should. Without going off on a tangent, my belief is that you do your scouting and then make your evaluation. If there’s a guy that you have heads and tails above everyone else, then he’s the nod. If it’s close, I’d rather see decisions made based on the organization. For example, if the team has a lot of stopgap assets, I’d like to see a gamble on upside, assuming that said HS player has more upside (which isn’t always the case). If the team is a bit thin in the upper ranks, then perhaps there is a justification for going with a collegian to try and fill things in. Maybe a team’s close and has a 2-3 year window – going for a collegian, with an expectation of said player moving fast, could create value.

by toonsterwu on Nov 18, 2009 3:58 PM CST up reply actions  

But... but... but...

… you’re being reasonable and rational.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Nov 18, 2009 5:01 PM CST up reply actions  

Typical

defeatist statement just like your canned buddy Sandy Alderson. Gutless statement by a non winner except the year they won with all the steroid players. Are you sure your name is BLou and not Sandy

by Slamdog on Nov 17, 2009 9:48 PM CST reply actions  

It says Fukudome...

received a 4M bonus in 1998. What is that all about? Did the Cubs have to pay some bonus that some other team paid years ago as a result of signing him to his current deal, or is that just some error? It’s the first I’ve ever heard of something like that.

by kanderber on Nov 18, 2009 7:40 AM CST reply actions  

Ha, good catch.

Must be a typo that should say “2008.”

Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.

by daver on Nov 18, 2009 11:21 AM CST up reply actions  

That was the genius of eddie lynch

except for the fact that Kosuke took the bonus and then turned around and signed with the Chunichi Dragons who drafted him in 1998 in the first round as a shortstop. Lynch sued to get the money back but Japan wouldn’t extradite Fukudome. Losing the $4 million is the real reason Eddie got canned even though everyone thinks it was due to the Garland-Karchner trade. Word!

by doofus cubs guy on Nov 19, 2009 10:28 AM CST up reply actions  

Mat Karchner!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Randy Wells. A product of the Roy Halladay School of Pitching, located in Toronto, Canada. Possible relocation.

by Cub Style on Nov 19, 2009 6:45 PM CST up reply actions  

Sandberg

If that line-up does happen in 2013, think about who might be the manager! Ryno would know these guys better than anyone would!

by tpark3 on Nov 27, 2009 10:55 AM CST reply actions  

I'd like to see Sandberg as manager in 2011.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Nov 27, 2009 11:37 AM CST up reply actions  

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