Building a spreadsheet champion, 2010
This post will be geared towards trying to find a way to build a team that can compete in 2010. Now, here are the rules I'll impose on myself: I'll start with the same figure Al used in his post: $145M for the upcoming season. In terms of objectives, I've got to find a way to get the team to the 90-win plateau. Why? NL Central champions have averaged 92.7 wins and NL Wild Card teams have averaged 90.7. If the Cubs want a shot at the playoffs, they'll need to build a team they can expect to get to at least the 90-win mark. How do we measure/predict whether or not the team can expect to total 90 wins? There are a lot of ways to do this. However, the one that provides the best combination of ease and accuracy is to use projections of wins above replacement (WAR). (By the way, I strongly recommend reading the 14-piece work at fangraphs on WAR I linked to there. It's an easy read, and hammers home how simple and yet comprehensive the WAR methodology is.) The debate as to whether that's wise let's try to leave for another day. Let's just leave it at this: nothing is perfect, but I've got to use something to keep me honest in my expectations, and that's probably the most accurate, rigorous option available to me.
The Cubs find themselves in a precarious position. They've got a lot of money locked up in only a few players, and that leaves them with little financial flexibility, particularly in the short term. Unfortunately, they also don't have much inexpensive help coming from the minor leagues in the near term. Most of their top prospects are mid-range arrivals. You almost certainly won't see any of them starting the season with the big league club, but you may see them by late 2010 or early 2011. The question is this: how do the Cubs bridge the gap between their current roster and the one that'll include current Cub prospects? Follow me past the jump to find out...
PLAN A: Stay the course.
Let's start with the 2009 roster. The Cubs have already committed ~$122,658,333 to 10 players from 2009 plus Luis Vizciano: Alfonso Soriano, Carlos Zambrano, Aramis Ramirez, Kosuke Fukudome, Ryan Dempster, Derrek Lee, Ted Lilly, Milton Bradley, Jeff Samardzija, and Aaron Miles. Al projected a total of $10,175,000 in payouts to the following 12 players: Geovany Soto, Koyie Hill, Jeff Baker, Ryan Theriot, Andres Blanco, Sam Fuld, Jake Fox, John Grabow, Carlos Marmol, Angel Guzman, Randy Wells, and Sean Marshall. Fontenot made $430,000 in 2009 so let's say he makes an even $500,000 in 2010. Heilman made $1,625,000 in 2009. Since these guys usually get raises, he'll probably make around $1,750,000 in 2010. Finally, there's Rich Harden. Most of the estimates I've seen have him getting awarded something in the neighborhood of $10M by arbiters. If you add it all up, that's a total team salary of... $144,958,333. That's our budgeted payroll for 2010. Now, let's continue down this path and see how good we can expect the Cubs to be if they trot out the 2009 team again in 2010.
There are number of forecasting systems we could use for this, but the most comprehensive ones already out for 2010 are those by Bill James, available at fangraphs. I've combined these with the projected UZR (fielding) ratings at SBN site Beyond the Boxscore. Here's what these forecasts predict for current Cubs position players in 2010. I show projected wOBA from James, offensive Runs Above Replacement (RAR) according to wOBA, defensive RAR according to projected UZR from Jeff Zimmerman at BtB, positional and replacement RAR according to fangraphs, total RAR as the sum of the other RAR's, and WAR as RAR/10. You can get more on the details of any of these columns here.
| Player | AB | wOBA | Off. RAR | Def. RAR | Pos. RAR | Repl. RAR | Tot. RAR | WAR |
| Lee | 595 | 0.386 | 32.2 | 1.8 | -11.3 | 19.8 | 42.5 | 4.3 |
| Ramirez | 506 | 0.375 | 21.2 | -0.4 | 1.9 | 16.9 | 39.6 | 4.0 |
| Soto | 473 | 0.362 | 14.4 | 0.0 | 9.0 | 15.8 | 39.2 | 3.9 |
| Bradley | 467 | 0.365 | 16.0 | -0.9 | -5.3 | 15.6 | 25.4 | 2.5 |
| Fukudome | 520 | 0.349 | 9.4 | -6.0 | 2.0 | 17.3 | 22.7 | 2.3 |
| Soriano | 567 | 0.346 | 8.0 | 1.5 | -6.5 | 18.9 | 21.9 | 2.2 |
| Theriot | 599 | 0.319 | -6.9 | 0.4 | 6.8 | 20.0 | 20.3 | 2.0 |
| Baker | 322 | 0.346 | 4.6 | -0.3 | 1.2 | 10.7 | 16.2 | 1.6 |
| Fox | 218 | 0.375 | 9.0 | 0.0 | -2.5 | 7.3 | 13.7 | 1.4 |
| Fuld | 115 | 0.317 | -1.6 | 0.0 | 0.4 | 3.8 | 2.7 | 0.3 |
| Hill | 218 | 0.289 | -8.7 | 0.0 | 4.1 | 7.3 | 2.8 | 0.3 |
| Blanco | 172 | 0.285 | -7.3 | 0.0 | 2.0 | 5.7 | 0.4 | 0.0 |
| Miles | 124 | 0.300 | -3.5 | -2.3 | 0.5 | 4.1 | -1.2 | -0.1 |
| Fontenot | 359 | 0.273 | -20.0 | 1.4 | 1.4 | 12.0 | -5.2 | -0.5 |
| Total | 5255 | 66.9 | -4.8 | 3.7 | 175.2 | 241.0 | 24.1 |
Now, lets look at the pitchers. I'll show their projected IP and FIP according to James, the replacement FIP for their position (4.45 for a relief pitcher in the NL, 5.37 for an NL starter, and 4.91 as the average of the two for swingmen), the runs/win for their environment, their pitching RAR, and pitching WAR. Again, look here for details.
| Player | IP | FIP | Rep. FIP | Runs/Win | RAR | WAR |
| Zambrano | 180 | 3.99 | 5.37 | 9.7 | 27.6 | 2.83 |
| Lilly | 170 | 4.3 | 5.37 | 10.0 | 20.2 | 2.03 |
| Harden | 135 | 3.67 | 5.37 | 9.5 | 25.5 | 2.68 |
| Dempster | 195 | 3.92 | 5.37 | 9.7 | 31.4 | 3.24 |
| Gorzelanny | 81 | 4.01 | 4.91 | 9.8 | 8.1 | 0.83 |
| Samardzija | 43 | 5.47 | 4.91 | 10.9 | -2.7 | -0.25 |
| Wells | 188 | 4.1 | 5.37 | 9.8 | 26.5 | 2.70 |
| Grabow | 72 | 4.17 | 4.45 | 9.9 | 2.2 | 0.23 |
| Marmol | 73 | 4 | 4.45 | 9.8 | 3.7 | 0.37 |
| Guzman | 58 | 4.11 | 4.45 | 9.8 | 2.2 | 0.22 |
| Marshall | 71 | 4.34 | 4.91 | 10.0 | 4.5 | 0.45 |
| Heilman | 72 | 4.25 | 4.45 | 9.9 | 1.6 | 0.16 |
| total | 1338 | 50.33 | 59.38 | 118.7 | 150.9 | 15.50 |
That's a total of 39-40 wins above replacement for the team. A replacement level team would be expected to win ~30% of their games, or 48 over the course of a season. This would put the Cubs at ~87-88 wins. That's not going to cut it... but it's pretty close. This is a team that with a couple minor moves could become a contender.
Of course, it isn't that simple. There's no way Bradley returns, and it looks as if Harden won't, either. That'll free up around $20M in 2010 salary, minus whatever portion of Bradley's salary the Cubs are stuck with. It'll also sap about 5 wins from the totals I calculated above, leaving the Cubs as an 83-win team. They could get some of that back if they move Gorzelanny into Harden's rotation spot, and move Fukudome over to RF, assuming Fukudome's time in CF and Gorzelanny's bullpen innings are replaced by, well... replacement-level players. That would probably net ~2.5 wins, bringing the team back up to the talent level of an 85-win squad.
How to they get from 85 wins to 90? I'm going to propose 2 ways of doing this. First, I'll go the trade route...
PLAN B: Trade for Granderson, and all will be well
The answer to many of the Cubs' problems has been pointed out before: Curtis Granderson. He's relatively young, relatively inexpensive, plays a premium defensive position and one that no one currently on the team can play effectively. He's also left-handed, and would bring balance back to the lineup after Bradley's departure. What would it take to get him? Well, Jake Fox is a pretty darn good hitter. Unfortunately, he's a butcher in the OF. What he needs is a team that can get him plenty of at bats at DH and occasionally play him at 3rd and in corner OF spots. The Tigers are just such a team. Now the deal won't end with Fox, not by a long shot. The Tigers are rumored to be interested in Austin Jackson, a CF prospect with the Yankees. The Cubs have two CF prospects that should interest the Tigers: Brett Jackson and Tyler Colvin. I'd let them have their pick of the two (but I'd try Colvin first). That's still probably not enough to get a deal done. Here's where I'm going to speculate a little. The Granderson rumors have been often explained as being part of an effort by the Tigers to shed payroll. Given Granderson's modest salary, that simply doesn't make sense unless the reports are wrong... or unless Granderson is "bait" the Tigers are dangling on the end of the hook of one of their horrible contracts. Here's what I'd propose: in addition to two prospects, the Cubs send Ryan Theriot to Detroit. In return, the Cubs get Granderson and take on one of Detroit's bad contracts in Carlos Guillen. The Tigers would get a prospect and two inexpensive, cost-controlled players. In return, the Cubs would get Granderson to play CF, and Guillen to play SS (or 2B if/when Castro emerges). The Cubs would also take on $18.5M in salary (the Tigers would take on ~$1M). This leaves ~$3M to play with. If possible, I spend that money on Pat Burrell in the oft-rumored deal between the Cubs and the Rays. Give the Rays that remaining $3M to make up the difference between Burrell's 2010 salary and that of Bradley and take the straight-up swap. (You'd likely have to then send another payment to cover a portion of Bradley's salary in 2011). You 'd use Burrell as a platoon "partner" with Fukudome and Granderson (though not obviously on the same day), to rest Soriano and Lee, and as an incredible bench bat. With those two moves, the Cubs salary would stay at ~$145, and they would also probably be a contender. Guillen and Granderson would bring about 5-wins to the table, putting the Cubs back up at the 90-win plateau. Anything Burrell added on top of that would be gravy. (EDIT: I just realized that this puts the Cubs' payroll closer to $150M. I spent the money on MB, but forgot to add in Burrell's salary! I'd just change this idea to "trade for Granderson and Guillen, and pay most of MB's salary while trading him for prospects. That, or give up more prospects in the Detroit deal, hold onto Theriot instead of Guillen, and use the money I slotted for Guillen on Burrell, instead.)
PLAN C: Hit the FA market for a CF and a 2B.
Now, if the Tigers trade rumors are just that... then the Cubs have to look elsewhere. In this case, I'm going to try to ditch the trade rumors and fill out the squad with free agents. Without a trade for Granderson, the Cubs would still need to find a CF'er. Marlon Byrd would fit nicely in CF, as would Mike Cameron. I'd offer them both 1-2 year deals worth $5-7M per season. That would leave the Cubs lineup extremely RH-heavy, so I'd also pursue Rick Ankiel as a platoon partner/4th OF/Soriano insurance. I'd offer Ankiel less money, but I also think he'll get less than the other two. If he isn't interested in a Reed Johnson-type contract (worth about $3M/season) then I'd pass. These moves would net about 2-wins, leaving the team a few wins short of the playoffs. The most obvious place for another upgrade would at this point be 2B. If the Cubs get Byrd to play CF, they should really look for a 2B that can hit left-handed. The best options that fit that description are Orlando Hudson and Felipe Lopez. I'd take either, and would again offer 1-2 year contracts worth $5-7M per season. In this scenario, Mike Fontenot would become expendable, as Jeff Baker would become the team's "DeRosa-style" utility fielder, and Blanco would be the late-inning defensive replacement. I would try to find him another home. Notice that in this scenario, the Cubs would only take on $14-$17M of salary in the free agent signings. They'd also be a little shy of 90 wins, so this is a team that would probably have to add another piece (a closer/late-inning reliever, most likely) at the trade deadline. I'd use whatever is left over to move Bradley for prospects, a bench bat, or some pitching.
So there you have it. Three plans for the Cubs. They could stay the course, trade for Granderson, or sign Byrd/Cameron AND Lopez/Hudson. And all of these scenarios yield Cubs teams that project to finish the season with 90 wins while keeping the total team salary under $145,000,000.
139 comments
|
2 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Interesting Read
Won’t Fontenot’s Super-2 status merit higher than a 70k dollar raise in 2010? I imagine it won’t change the bottom line dramatically, but could be a factor in whether the Cubs are able to keep/trade him.
Oh, and...
I, in general, prefer plan B. How many wins was the 2008 team expected to achieve using only predictors like you do here? I assume they were not “supposed” to win anywhere near 97 games…
I prefer plan B, as well.
I can’t remember what the 2008 team was supposed to do. They were probably in the low 90’s. The 2009 team was also supposed to sit in the low 90’s, and we know how that turned out.
I’ll admit there’s a lot of variance to baseball. This isn’t me trying to predict how many games the Cubs will win. (Although it serves that purpose, too… at least as well as any other method I know of.) The idea is to have a goal to reach for, and try to build your talent level to that point.
by Shawn Domagal-Goldman on Nov 17, 2009 7:19 AM CST up reply actions
Oh!
I forgot about that. Add that to all the salary totals. The plan here is to not increase salary from what it would be if the Cubs retained Harden and Bradley. Since Fontenot is a part of the plan in all of these scenarios, it shouldn’t affect things too much. One could always release him and/or Heilman or try to trade them for prosepcts.
by Shawn Domagal-Goldman on Nov 17, 2009 7:17 AM CST up reply actions
Not incredibly well...
He’d be -3.8 runs below average according to the age-adjusted UZR projections. That’s not horrible, though, and he’d still be an upgrade over Theriot when offense is taken into account. That said, the difference between the two won’t be worth the difference in salaries, which is part of the reason I think the Tigers would consider such a deal.
by Shawn Domagal-Goldman on Nov 17, 2009 7:22 AM CST up reply actions
I like plan B
and if you sub Blanco for him enough in late innings situations you can take the -3.8 number down some I would think. We need a positive change and I think this would be. I like Theriot but not enought to keep him and if he gets the deal done say goodbye.
by Cubsfan Waveland on Nov 17, 2009 8:31 AM CST up reply actions
I'm really interested in whether Guillen at middle IF is feasible
I suspect it might be feasible at 2B, but not SS.
Is he traded yet?
If it's feasible at SS, Guillen could be the bridge to Castro
and possibly then move to 2B if he’s an upgrade over Baker. Guillen could then fill the playing 3-4 out of 5 days utility role and backup the whole IF and OF corners.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
I believe the Tigers got Guillen off of SS
because he wasn’t playing it at a high level anymore, and because he couldn’t physically hold up there.
"Enough foreplay- let's get crackin'"- Fred Garvin
I'll admit skepticism is healthy...
when it comes to Guillen’s defense. But we should also remember that he’s significantly better than Theriot at the plate.
The other option would be to send something other than Theriot Detroit’s way (Fontenot? Baker?) and then move Guillen to 2nd immediately.
by Shawn Domagal-Goldman on Nov 17, 2009 3:13 PM CST up reply actions
You know, I was going to say that Guillen might use his NTC to block having to change positions
…but it sounds like he wants to play just one position, and play everyday. He may actually want to be a shortstop again too – this quote was pretty telling:
So is that the root of Guillen’s dissatisfaction here? Does he want to move back to shortstop? Beck asked Guillen which position he’d like to play next season.
“Obviously, I can’t play first base,” Guillen said. “Obviously, [Leyland] doesn’t want me at shortstop. He doesn’t want me at third base.”
Makes it sound like the move from SS wasn’t his decision, and maybe he’d want that spot back.
I dunno, the more I think about it the more I like the idea of taking the chance. Especially if Granderson comes back as a two-fer.
What they've trotted out there
is possibly the best defensive shortstop in the game
http://www.fivetoolfans.com
...whose bat is so weak that despite his incredible fielding prowess
…his total WAR for the last 3 seasons combined is just over 2.
Now it could be that Leyland overvalues SS defense, or that Fangraphs undervalues it. But a healthy Guillen (obviously I’m excluding Carlos’ 2009 here) has never put up a single-season WAR less than Everett’s 3-year total.
I’m not sure what to think one way or the other on this. My initial response was that this was a bad idea but I’m coming around on it. Honestly though this is one of those extreme cases that should be left to the experts; objectively speaking, given the information we have, Shawn’s is a very interesting idea, but I’m sure that major league clubs would be able to make a much more informed decision on this.
Detroit made a big deal of upgrading defense over the past couple years -
moving Cabrera to 1B, Inge to 3B, and Guillen kind of just got pushed aside as they got the best defensive SS available. They couldn’t put him at 2B because of Polanco but 2B isn’t covered for us in the same way. Jeff Baker, for example, is starting to pick the position up, but is a converted 3B.
Now 2B may be even worse than SS if the problem is Guillen’s legs. And Detroit isn’t looking at Guillen for 2B this year with Polanco leaving, so….
Is he traded yet?
I'd also argue...
that the fundamental point I’m making is to take on a bad contract with Granderson to make the deal plausible from DET’s perspective. It doesn’t have to be Guillen for Theriot. That was just the first idea that popped out at me. Robertson or Bonderman for Gorzelanny could also work.
by Shawn Domagal-Goldman on Nov 17, 2009 9:39 PM CST up reply actions
Dontrelle?
What about not throwing anyone else in but taking on Dontrelle Willis?
I know the likelihood of him contributing is small.
But, if we hold onto Gorzelanny/Marshall/Shark and add Willis to the mix there is insurance.
Giving up a Gorzo for Bonderman leaves a hole if Bonderman continues to struggle.
Eamus Ursuli!
From what I'm reading, shawn probably
is agreeable with that as well.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
Guillen at SS is not pretty:
look at the trend in his Fielding Bible numbers at SS:
2005: +3
2006: -2
2007: -12
and Theriot’s:
2007: +5
2008: +6
2009: +8
you get the idea. i think you’d realistically be giving up about 25 to 30 plays up the middle with this swap. also, Guillen is probably only going to stay healthy for about 120 games in 2010 (which will negate a non-trivial part of his offensive production).
Hi shawndgoldman up late are you?
Thanks for the interesting post. Like Al, you make it sound sooo easy…
Well, I never heard it before, but it sounds uncommon nonsense.
- The Mock Turtle, Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll -
No doubt...
it’s hard to constrain one’s self when doing these types of posts. I thought about “offering” some of these trades to the other SBN bloggers, as if they were running their teams, but ran out of time. Maybe we could still do that. Al, if/when you’re around is that something you think the SBN community would be interested in? Their own “hot stove season/GM meetings?”
by Shawn Domagal-Goldman on Nov 17, 2009 7:23 AM CST up reply actions
Of course, you'd have to set some ground rules...
like trying to find the salary expectations that every team was going to operate under for the foreseeable future. Otherwise, you could have the Royals blog signing every FA out there!
(Nothing against the Royals… that’s just not their M.O. for a reason.)
by Shawn Domagal-Goldman on Nov 17, 2009 7:25 AM CST up reply actions
I was going to put this in the post, but forgot:
I taught myself some SQL this week and calcualted the following splits for Granderson off the pitch FX database, to see how Granderson did when not playing in Comerica (which is a pretty big park). I’ve only got the last 3 years in my database at the moment.
AVG/OBP/SLG/wOBA
vs LHP away: .234/.290/.387/.306
vs RHP away: .310/.384/.589/.412
Those numbers against RHP are pretty sick. The numbers against LHP aren’t great, but they’re better on the road than they are overall. I think the Cubs would be able to “hide” him against tough LHP and still get him plenty of AB’s if they also had Burrell on the roster.
by Shawn Domagal-Goldman on Nov 17, 2009 7:30 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
hmm where was that picture taken
if it was a meeting, then why would Dempster be there?
Wrigley Bound in the Summer of 2010
I'm guessing it was the Ricketts press conference
Demp was in attendance for that.
Fontenot (fon-te-no): Cajun for "scrappy"
I like plan B best
Though I think you can get away with Plan C if Holliday doesn’t come back to STL. Really I think his signing determines how aggressive the rest of the division needs to be as far as planning to win in 2010.
Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.
Your three suggestions are pretty reasonable and doable...
… me, I think I’d consider saving the 2B free agent money and maybe going with a Baker/Fontenot platoon at 2B. That would give you some dollars to spend midseason.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
This.
None of the free agent options at 2B excite me. But I would look into acquiring an SS, moving Theriot to 2B, and using Baker in a super-utility role, although it looks like Hendry is satisfied with Theriot for now. And of course with Castro in the pipeline you don’t want to have a long contract at SS.
by cubsforever on Nov 17, 2009 10:07 AM CST up reply actions
I like "saving $" at 2nd, too...
and if I were making the decisions on more than just WAR, that’s what I’d do. But the exercise was to use the spreadsheet, so to speak… and Fontenot’s projections were killing the team. Even so, entering the season with the mindeset of using Baker/Fontenot as the 2nd base platoon and acquiring one only if that doesn’t work out is a good idea.
by Shawn Domagal-Goldman on Nov 17, 2009 12:17 PM CST up reply actions
Shawn very informative,
I really like your plan B the best.
Why not combine plan B and C by trading for Granderson and then signing Byrd
to platoon with Dome and Granderson?
Would Byrd accept a lesser role?
Personally I don’t see why he would
Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.
Byrd might not
but the Cubs should have a lot of extra playing time in their OF. I hope someone good would take that role and I hope that someone might be Mike Cameron if Lou and him are really good friends.
Is he traded yet?
That's not a bad idea...
but you’d have a tough time convincing Byrd to take a back-up role. You’d have to convince him he’d essentially be a 4th starter with all the PT he’d get against LHP (both Fukudome and Granderson would warrant some time off against them) AND Soriano’s recent health and performance issues.
by Shawn Domagal-Goldman on Nov 17, 2009 12:52 PM CST up reply actions
Chad Tracy is intriguing...
… if healthy, because he can play 3B in addition to the outfield.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I really like Tracy...
even though his production has fallen off in recent years. I had forgotten about him because I was locked into looking at 2B and CF options. But Fukudome’s flexibility allows the team to get a corner OF instead.
The problem with that is Fukudome isn’t that great a fielder in CF, and you’d be putting him there against RHP. Which is to say, most of the time
by Shawn Domagal-Goldman on Nov 17, 2009 12:18 PM CST up reply actions
I'd rather get Fukudome out of center
Not so much because of his own weaknesses there, but because a stronger CF could cover some of Soriano’s issues in LF.
That's a great point.
And it strengthens the argument I’m making. Soriano/Fukudome/Fox would be a horrendous OF defensively. Soriano/Granderson/Fukudome would be well above average.
by Shawn Domagal-Goldman on Nov 17, 2009 9:40 PM CST up reply actions
Very nice analysis.
Informative without the snark that usually accompanies most saber-type writers.
Although, something to be noted is that some of the UZR projections look to me to be waaaaay off. Dome in particular is definitely better than -6.0 RAR.
I'm pretty sure those are his CF numbers
Though I think his numbers would improve if he stopped playing CF from the Red Line platform
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
According to The Hardball Times Annual
Kosuke made the fewest “out of zone” plays of any regular CF last year. He’s not a terrible CF, but his defensive value is definitely increased if he’s able to go back to RF
http://www.fivetoolfans.com
by mykalmorgan on Nov 17, 2009 11:14 AM CST up reply actions
Yeah some are off.
The UZR’s projections are just a weighted average of the last 3 seasons. Fukudome’s may be low, but remember these numbers are position-specific. Fukudome goes to +4.4 in RF. There are also no projections for Fuld, Fox, Hill, Blanco, or Soto. You throw them together and it’s probably a wash. I also didn’t include baserunning or hitting by pitchers. The Cubs are pretty good at one and horrible at the other, and in their specific case it probably evens out.
by Shawn Domagal-Goldman on Nov 17, 2009 12:21 PM CST up reply actions
I'm confused...
…But I like it. Nice job as always…
I’d be interested in how the Cubs’ front office evaluates itself, if they take into account metrics such as WAR.
Proud recipient of a hot dog shot from the Iowa Cubs hot dog gun.
What about
Chone Figgins? Yes, he’s more expensive, and yes, he’s older. But he otherwise seems to be a better fit for the Cubs needs: can lead off, can steal bases, switch hitter, can play multiple positions including CF and 3B (for when Ramirez has his inevitable injury).
I wouldn’t give him a 5 year contract, but IF he’d accept a 2-3 year deal, and IF we could trade Bradley and a big chunk of his salary for a nothing prospect, perhaps he’d be a better fit than Granderson.
DEJESUS!!!
Chone is older, will cost more money and
plays worse defense.
I believe a lineup with Dome leading off and Granderson hitting 5th/6th is better than Chone leading off and Dome hitting second.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
Chone Figgins is actually pretty good defensively...
at 3B only. We already have a 3B.
http://www.fivetoolfans.com
by mykalmorgan on Nov 17, 2009 11:16 AM CST up reply actions
Sorry, I was referring to CF.
Agreed, Figgins is not needed at third.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
At least Soriano hits for power
I think Figgins will deteriorate rapidly as he nears his mid-30s. None of his top comparables statistically were able to produce past the age of 33.
At least Fonz used to, but I agree with your sarcasm, I
don’t like the idea of Figgins as a big ticket free agent.
In fact, post PED, I’m not keen on any big big money multi-year deal to any player over 32. Not that I believe any specific individual was using, but my perspective on how long a player can produce is askew from the former users hitting into their late 30’s and early 40’s. Safer to err closer to 30.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
Exacly, signing a guy at 30 gives you 3-4 years before
the return becomes questionable.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
I really, really, really like the idea of Figgins.
I just don’t think he’ll be affordable given the Cubs finances this offseason. Unless the Cubs can find someone to take on all of Bradley’s salary, I can’t see them paying $10M+ per season for one player. That probably takes them out of the running for Figgins… and probably Holliday, too.
by Shawn Domagal-Goldman on Nov 17, 2009 12:23 PM CST up reply actions
figgins' value playing anywhere but 3B is greatly reduced and makes his price absurd as an slap-hitting OF.
I think
he has value as a switch-hitting, high OBP leadoff hitter who is a threat to steal every time he gets on base, and can play almost any position but catcher and first. For a 2-3 year contract, I’d do it. Longer than that, and I wouldn’t be interested. More than 10 mil, and he’s overpriced.
But at the right price I think he could be exactly what the team needs.
I don’t know how to analyze defensive play, but he’d played more games in the outfield than at third, which makes me think he couldn’t be too bad out there.
DEJESUS!!!
Someone (Mets?) is going to pay stupid money for Figgins
With too many years. Let some other team make that mistake this year…..
Yes.
I like Figgins a LOT. That said, I think he’ll be overpaid the next few years.
by Shawn Domagal-Goldman on Nov 17, 2009 9:41 PM CST up reply actions
The Cubs have done enough of that recently
Those contracts are part of the reason you had to do so much analysis to come up with team improvement moves, and why the alternatives for dealing with Bradley (talk about overpaid FAs!) are so unattractive. Time to give overpaying FAs a rest and come up with other strategies to improve the team.
The Cubs can’t/won’t be the Yankees, so they will lack the finances to overcome expensive FA mistakes.
I guess I'm the only one who likes plan A better
I’m a big fan of Granderson, and think he makes more sense (depending on what Hendry would have to give up) than Byrd or Cameron. Granderson has the most potential to improve, as compared with older Byrd and Cameron. My guess is that we’d be happy with the defense from any of them. And I like the keep Theriot/get Burrell option, too. Burrell might be insurance if Soriano continues his decline.
Is giving up prospects the main objection to plan A?
Anyway, nice write-up, Shawn. I also think this shows that Reed Johnson has little chance of being a Cub next year.
I think
if Byrd and Reed are in the same neighborhood, contract-wise, that would be an easy decision.
DEJESUS!!!
I bet Byrd will want a lot more
He had a much better year than Reed.
I think that technically, Granderson is part of plan B
but I like him as on option, too.
Enough of trying to fill CF with band-aids and chewing gum. It’s an important position. The Cubs are probably stuck with in indifferent LF for a number of years. Remember the old maxim about “defense up the middle?” 2B and SS are likely to still be in flux next year, and we’re all holding our breath about Soto. It would be nice to come into the season with at least one of those four critical positions filled (even if we have to wear a blindfold for lefty starters).
Yes!
You got it…. Imagine a middle defense of Soto/Castro/Lee/Granderson…. nice.
by Shawn Domagal-Goldman on Nov 17, 2009 9:45 PM CST up reply actions
interesting, but plans A,B,and C are all
position player centric. I think the moves on the pitching side will have more to do with where we end up in 2010. Even if Marmol is the closer there needs to be a bullpen presence to take on those late innings, it won’t be Samardzija. And I don’t think a Harden/Gorz swap is a positive move.
I would rather the efforts around moving MB be parlayed into pitching help, and then I would live with a Johnson/Fuld sub in CF and Baker/Theriot in the middle infield.
"The Cubs are due in sixty-two." - #14
really?
Even though the Cubs’ pitching was quite good last season? Even though Gorzo (a 14-game winner in 2007) is slated to be our No. 5 pitcher, and Sean Marshall is our backup plan? Even though Angel Guzman looked good last year, and the team is re-signing Grabow? I agree — it won’t be Samardzja.
I’m comfortable with the rotation as is, and I’m not a fan of spending lots of money to improve bullpens. The Cubs SHOULD focus on the position players.
Scoring runs was the fall-off this year
When you don’t score, every bad pitch is magnified.
Plus, bringing in more athletic players to improve fielding will help the pitching, too.
I think that's because...
the Cubs have their rotation filled, AND I’m not a strong believer in spending FA $ or prospects on bullpen arms. The Cubs have lots of live arms in the minor leagues, and should try to fill the bullpen using those.
by Shawn Domagal-Goldman on Nov 17, 2009 12:46 PM CST up reply actions
The rotation is filled, but
the status quo team is not good enough (85 wins) to win. I was merely trying to suggest it might make more sense to pick up those 5+ wins through the pitching side. I am not defending Harden or Gregg, but replacing them with Gorz and Samardzja is a negative replacement.
"The Cubs are due in sixty-two." - #14
How are the Cubs going to acquire a 5 WAR starter? Much harder to do than filling CF/2B holes.
by Acapulco Taco Pie on Nov 17, 2009 2:11 PM CST up reply actions
Something tells me he's going to suggest a name that rhymes with "Galladay."
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
Forget the rhyme...
…what’s wrong with just having a Galladay?
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
All depends on the football style recruiting promises.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
Right.
The issue isn’t just that the rotation is filled. It’s more that it’s filled with ~2-win players. To improve by a couple wins that means replacing a pitcher with a 4-5 win pitcher. That’s going to be expensive.
by Shawn Domagal-Goldman on Nov 17, 2009 3:08 PM CST up reply actions
What would that take?
Sandy Koufax, circa 1965, complete with the 40 starts?
Seriously, getting that kind of extra bang out of one pitcher would take a lot.
Offer Rich Harden arbitration?
Okay, that’s exaggerating a bit on the 5 WAR thing…
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
Well I think they should offer him arbitration...
but after seeing Gorzelanny’s projection I’m not sure they should do much more than that.
by Shawn Domagal-Goldman on Nov 17, 2009 9:43 PM CST up reply actions
Harden scares me
I honestly don’t understand how his WAR comes out so high, given how few innings he pitches and that he was OK/not great in 2009. Does the scoring over-emphasize strikeouts over pitching to contact (and the more democratic nature of a ground-out to second). How does he score out if you penalize him for the extra load he puts on long relief and spot starters?
And he has had two consecutive seasons at his apparent max capacity of 140 innings. What is he has used up the streak? I would seriously fear him accepting arbitration, signing, and pitching less that 100 innings in 2010.
Harden scared me after this season as to
whether he’s worth $10M to the Cubs in 2010. Not being able to go every 5, hot or cold when he does pitch and usually needing the bullpen by the 6th creates doubt.
Lilly’s surgery cemented my opinion that Harden in 2010 is a luxury the Cubs can’t afford. If Lilly doesn’t come back as expected and Harden has any sort of hiccup, the rotation requires a big upgrade, but there’s no money to make a fix.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
The reason is because he's *that* good when he pitches
If Rich Harden (or any pitcher for that matter) can get batters to ground out to 2b most of the time, then he would do it. I don’t know what makes it ‘democratic’. Unless you have a heavy sinker (which Harden does not) or Maddux-esque control (there’s a reason why Maddux is Maddux), pitching to contact is a recipe for trouble. Pitchers have very little control over what happens to a ball once it’s put into play and you’re more likely to get burned by a string of bad luck. That’s why Strikeouts are so valued.
WAR does not penalize players based on the skill or lack thereof of other members of the team. Throwing less innings penalizes him because if you throw more good innings, your numbers will go up.
Harden’s peripherals are very good – when you look at a pitcher’s numbers you have to look at (especially) their K-rate, walk rate, and their home run rate and make sure their other peripheral stats support these numbers. Harden had a lot of bad luck on HRs last year that didn’t really follow from his other numbers.
There is always the risk of Harden pitching less than 100 innings. There is risk in signing him, but the reward mitigates it. His stuff is easily among the top pitcers in the NL, if not MLB.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
Ack, I canthe reference
I just don’t understan
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
lol Reply FAIL
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
I can't believe I missed the reference
It’s been too long since I saw the movie.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
I (mostly) understand your argument
but I still think that the high rating for Harden highlights a flaw in WAR.
He may have been the best pro-rata performer in 2009, but if you extend that and say you want every starter to be like him, you end needing 6+ starters and 3 very high performing long relievers. That leaves severe, unaddressable imbalances in the rest of the roster – all from cloning your “best” pitcher.
I also believe that the risk of a <100 inning season from Harden is too high for the salary he will command. For $10M, 140 great innings should be an absolute minimum, but for Harden it will be the maximum.
This is slightly off-topic
but has to do with the use of WAR as a valuation statistic. I think it’s a really great tool, but this is a run-down of ways it can be misused.
In particular, point #3 can lead to undervaluing Big Z. Zambrano’s hitting is actually worth something, no matter how bad he sometimes looks flailing away.
http://www.fivetoolfans.com
I agree with that post, 100%.
I didn’t include base-running either. I think that ignoring those two effects will roughly cancel on the team level in this specific case, but they certainly won’t on the individual player level. So don’t take the WAR’s posted here as gospel.
by Shawn Domagal-Goldman on Nov 17, 2009 12:48 PM CST up reply actions
Cubs pitchers, on the whole,
were (I believe, can’t remember where I read it) the best hitting pitchers. Conversely, Cubs baserunners were among the worst (and not just in stolen bases). Other teams might come out looking better or worse for the WAR, but you’re probably right that in the Cubs case it’s closer to accurate.
http://www.fivetoolfans.com
by mykalmorgan on Nov 17, 2009 12:58 PM CST up reply actions
Two questions Shawn...
what would our win estimate be if we kept both Bradley and Harden while also using prospects to acquire Granderson? Or maybe w/ out Harden in that scenario?
Also, I think Burrell sucks. I could probably dig around and find it myself, but what are his projections for 2010?
We probably wouldn't be able to afford to keep Harden in that case.
If the Cubs let Harden walk or he (preferably) he signed with another team after denying arbitration, then the Cubs could afford Granderson. I think the Cubs have the prospect depth to pull off a deal for him without including current MLB players other than maybe Fontenot and/or Fox, who are bench players for the Cubs.
If they do what you suggest, the Cubs are above a 90-win team. They’re at about 90 with Granderson and Theriot. Having MB as your 4th OF and platoon partner for Fukudome and Granderson makes this offense scary good.
by Shawn Domagal-Goldman on Nov 17, 2009 12:50 PM CST up reply actions
I think Plan B has the most merit, but I'm not sure Detroit plays along
I think they’re willing to trade Granderson and I also agree that their strategy will be to attach a bad contract to Granderson, but I think it’s unrealistic to expect Guilllen will be that bad contract. They love him in Detroit and his versatility is very valuable to them. I think it’s far more likely they try to package Ordonez or one of their pitchers (Robertson, Willis, Bonderman) with Granderson.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
That's a fair point.
You can insert one of the pitcher bad deals, instead. In that case, the Cubs likely keep Theriot and give Detroit something else in return. Gorzelanny, perhaps if it’s Bonderman or Robertson? That deal would make a ton of sense for both teams. Probably more than the one I proposed.
by Shawn Domagal-Goldman on Nov 17, 2009 12:51 PM CST up reply actions
Maybe the Tigers would be willing to take Bradley...
… if the Cubs took one of the Tigers’ bad deals in addition to Granderson.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
So you're thinking of a
Bradley, Fox, Gorzelanny + 1-2 prospects for Granderson + 1 bad Detroit contract?
I could live with that.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
I bet
Gorzelanny would be real ticked off, tho.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Nov 17, 2009 2:54 PM CST up reply actions
Why?
Because he wouldn’t be in his hometown? He’d have a better shot at making the Detroit rotation.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I guess.
wouldn’t he rather be on a contending team?
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Nov 18, 2009 11:59 AM CST up reply actions
Gorzelanny grew up a White Sox fan, FWIW.
Plus, he’d get to go to a very nice pitcher’s park.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
by Bill Potter on Nov 18, 2009 12:28 PM CST up reply actions
I thought of that too.
I didn’t include it because most of what I’ve read indicated DET has no interest in Bradley whatsoever. But I’d definitely explore that type of deal.
by Shawn Domagal-Goldman on Nov 17, 2009 3:12 PM CST up reply actions
OK, I have meetings for the rest of the day.
I’ll check back in late tonight, PST. So feel free to ask questions. I’ll try to answer any/all when I have a moment.
by Shawn Domagal-Goldman on Nov 17, 2009 12:53 PM CST reply actions
I'm a big fan of Plan B...
… if, and only if, the contract we take back doesn’t outweigh the good we get as well. Ordonez is at like $18 mil this season and $15 mil the next…
The second paragraph of Shawn’s writeup included this:
The Cubs find themselves in a precarious position. They’ve got a lot of money locked up in only a few players, and that leaves them with little financial flexibility, particularly in the short term.
Adding to that is not in the team’s benefit, even if it allows for ditching MB.
Dum spiro spero…
Follow me on twitter or else: @andrewjstone.
Maggs 2011 contract is a vesting issue again.
If he’s sharing time with Fukudome in RF he’ll likely not get that close. I think an OF of Soriano, Granderson, and Dome/Maggs could help a team win a championship. Soriano/Byrd/Dome? Not so much.
"Enough foreplay- let's get crackin'"- Fred Garvin
I agree with this
Maggs has a career 944 ops against lefties. Obviously it’s an incredibly expensive platoon, but the option wouldn’t vest.
Re: incredibly expensive platoon
I think you’d just have to hold your nose and not look at it as a strict platoon. Dome can play all three spots, and Maggs can help spell Soriano in left, maybe getting them each around 400 abs, although that might be optimistic for Maggs. I think the 5th OF would have to be a RH batter who can play center, but I would guess Johnson would be too expensive.
"Enough foreplay- let's get crackin'"- Fred Garvin
Brilliant!
I didn’t even consider the possibility of acquiring Ordonez because it seemed a lock that his option for 2011 would vest. But if he’s on a team with Fukudome/Granderson/Soriano, it may not. There are ~1950 PA’s to split amongst the OF’ers. I could see a scenario in which you split that roughly equally between the 4 OF’s (about 500 PA each).
by Shawn Domagal-Goldman on Nov 17, 2009 9:48 PM CST up reply actions
Agreed.
I hadn’t realized Ordonez in 2011 wasn’t a forgone conclusion. In looking at it this way, much more feasible.
As long as nobody in the outfield went down for 85 games or something….
Dum spiro spero…
Follow me on twitter or else: @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Nov 18, 2009 8:35 AM CST up reply actions
Actually, it might be...
assuming Ricketts can be convinced to take on the additional $. And he just might.
It should be pretty easy to justify the baseball-aspect of any deal that nets us Granderson assuming we don’t give up too much of the farm, i.e. Castro. As pointed out by Shoemile, bringing Maggs on board would create an expensive platoon but if that platoon puts up some big numbers and keeps Maggs’ 2011 option from vesting, that’s a win-win right there. And we get rid of Bradley. That’s win-win-win.
The downside obviously is the additional $ needed. But it’s a covered risk, i.e. it’s only for 2010. If we win and advance in the playoffs, the goodwill generated with fanbase will be a great way to start off new ownership.
But if it all blows up and we don’t make playoffs, some good will still come of it because it will be very easy to get rid of Hendry (and Lou), Maggs option doesn’t kick in and we can start relatively fresh in 2011.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
I think Ricketts knows he needs to invest on the field product wise
The question is invest or smart investments. The new batting coach is an investment since it pays dividends. Granderson is an obvious target, in his prime, fulfills three on field needs, defense, speed and top of the order batting. I suspect that he would be an important project for the guru hired. Guillen is not SS so don’t kid yourself. But the idea of taking another contract is probably sound, someone like Bonderman, ($12.5M) in 2010 where he might still be a reliever. Potentially he is better than Harden. Now that would probably mean the movement of an arm and a tool player plus other throw ins.
I think the question of 2B is then decided by spring where if Baker can do his occasional pop and Castro continues to develop then moving Theriot to the utility spot in the eventuality.
If the Tigers are indeed motivated to move $20M off the books willing to take Colvin, Marshall and another prospect pitcher or even plus Fox and Castillo I would do that deal fast.
Piniella: "This is a tougher job than I thought it would be, I'm going to be honest with you."
granderson should not be be a lead off hitter
but that probably wont stop lou
"hey
by jesus christos on Nov 17, 2009 5:08 PM CST up reply actions
New platoon
Granderson against righties, Soriano against lefties.
I’m mainly joking, but it could work out….
Shawn,
Since you obviously respect (as I do) the opinion of the guys at Fangraphs, I’m sure you’ve read this article outlining all the reasons why CG is a long, long shot to be dealt:
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/the-granderson-rumor/
The Guillen salary dump you suggest does equalize the deal reasonably, but clearly the Tigers must think they can get a young shortstop or starting pitcher instead of a mid-level OF prospect (Jackson). The Tigers would also prefer to package more than one bad contract with Granderson to a team that could absorb the cost. As Cameron notes in his post:
I wouldn’t be surprised if the Tigers trimmed payroll this winter, but I’d be stunned if Granderson was traded. Unless some team is going to take every bad contract the Tigers have with him, he’s more valuable to them as a player than as trade bait.
Yup, I read that one...
and it was the inspiration for “Plan B.” I agree with the main point, which is that trading Granderson as a means of alleviating the salary issues the Tigers are facing is silly. So I took the somewhat contradictory stance of: what if both parties are correct? In other words, what if the idea of trading Granderson for salary relief is ridiculous, yet they’re also trading Granderson as part of an effort to cut salary? The only way those two statements can be reconciled is if Granderson is the bait, as I suggest in plan B.
by Shawn Domagal-Goldman on Nov 17, 2009 9:50 PM CST up reply actions
You should also consider that Bill James' projections for 2010 (and historically) are significantly more 'optimistic'...
..in comparison to those calculated by CHONE and ZIPS. I would guess using any of those projections as input might shave 3-5 wins off your projected win totals.
Yeah, and IIRC
they’re particularly optimistic about young players like Fox and Soto.
I don’t necessarily believe all of these projetions, but thought they’d be a good starting point for the framing of an offseason discussion. Ultimately, one should at the least average together different projection systems. And if you’re running a team you should also include scouting reports. Unfortunately for us, we don’t have scouts at our disposal.
by Shawn Domagal-Goldman on Nov 17, 2009 10:56 PM CST up reply actions
I think there are a few possible reasons why Detroit is looking at trading Granderson
1) They’re irrational after a more frustrating season than ours. One Detroit writer suggested the owner was angry and would settle down and realize trading Granderson is a mistake.
2) They believe 2009 Granderson is representative of Granderson going forward, which means trading him now is selling high.
3) Granderson is the bait and after a team gets a good hold on the bait, the GM will say, your offer is not good enough unless you swallow the hook of Ordonez/Guillen/Dontrelle, etc.
The good news is that any of these scenarios are workable for the Cubs if they want to work with it, because most of Detroit’s bad contracts are only a year long. The one really disappointing scenario would be #1 if Detroit did come to their senses before Jim could make a deal.
Is he traded yet?
My opinion is closest to your #3
But something close to #1 is also in play, but the frustration may be rational/financial. Detroit took on a major payroll to be an AL pennant contender and still couldn’t win the weakest division in the league (won 3 more games than the Cubs despite busting it past the final day of the regular season).
That failure probably has harsher economic consequences in Detriot than it will in Chicago. Attendance in 2009 was just over 2.5 million, off 20% from 2008, while the Cubs held pretty much steady at 3.2 million. Detriot’s average ticket prices was $27 – the Cubs’ was $48. Putting aside the visiting team share and concessions, that’s a >$80M difference in revenue streams right there. With current economic conditions in Michigan, Detroit’s cable package must be worth a lot less than Chicago’s, too.
Bottom line is that the Tigers did a serious reach on payroll to try to win and fell short. That sort of disappointment often leads to dismantling a team. The current economy just makes it that much more likely.
#3 is the only logical one
But I don’t think the Cubs can take on MORE than one bad contract unless they add payroll in 2010.
There's a 4th reason...
They’ll be trimming salary and want to re-build their roster around a core of prospects. None of the big salaries they’ll trade away will bring back much to speak of, so they’re going to try to get a couple “blue chippers” via Granderson.
by Shawn Domagal-Goldman on Nov 19, 2009 1:51 AM CST up reply actions
that's the more likely scenario
imo. That is, Dombrowski isn’t high on his team’s chances and would rather see if he can get a bushel of prospects, which combined with the freed up money after 2010, could help them rebuild quicker. They have 2 exciting young arms in Turner/Crosby, some solid pen options, an exciting potential stud catcher, but in general, they lack enough assets to be able to envision a quick rebuilding job.
Thing is, as is, I think that team could compete in the AL Central next year.
I think the team could compete, too
which is why I didn’t put that on my list, but you could be right. Dombrowski may know more about his team health than we do.
Is he traded yet?
They would be tough in the AL Central
But the Tigers still don’t look like a team that can take on NY or LA, unless some of the current roster moves the dial significantly from their 2009 perfromances.
And with no moves, they carry a payroll of around $115M against attendance revenues that were $70M in 2009 (badly as the Cubs underperformed, they had a $138M payroll against gate revenues of about $150M). That can’t be an attractive proposition for the owner, no matter how rich he is – the team certainly has other revenues, but they have other expenses, too.
The Cubs would probably have to break the anounced 2010 budget to make a deal work – I would think that getting Granderson would require taking an 8-figure salary off the Tigers’ hands, and the net impact would have to reduce Detroit’s payroll. If that contract ends after 2010 and the player attached could be of some use in 2010, I hope that Ricketts would step up and give Hendry a one year hall pass on the budget.
I dont like plan b
Trade for granderson is fine….Do what you gotta do…Why u want a realllll bad pat burell i have no idea hes worst then bradly and a waste of money..I’d try to sign hudson for second…And i dont care about money…they wanna win spend it..!!…everyone rips on fox that he plays bad d…well dunn plays bad out there im sure fox can play better out there and probly hit better for ave then dunn but not as many homers.
It's not that I want Pat Burrell...
it’s that of all the Bradley trade rumors I’ve heard tying the one in which they get Burrell in return is the most palatable. Nothing more.
by Shawn Domagal-Goldman on Nov 17, 2009 9:51 PM CST up reply actions
I'm not sure your Granderson swap works...
Tyler Colvin’s ceiling is 4th outfielder, and Brett Jackson cannot be traded until the summer at the earliest. Realistically, I think Granderson would cost the Cubs Josh Vitters, who I wouldn’t be totally against moving, then maybe Tyler Colvin and a relief pitcher on top of that (Jeff Stevens or Blake Parker perhaps).
"I intend to live forever-- so far, so good." - Steven Wright
by Drunk Cubs Fan on Nov 18, 2009 11:10 AM CST reply actions
You're right about Jackson.
And while I don’t think any more highly of Colvin than you do, his numbers are comparable to Austin Jackson. So if the Yanks are throwing Jackson at the Tigers I think the Cubs can top it with Colvin+.
I’d also give up Vitters, FWIW. But if Vitters is going I’m less inclined to take on salary from Detroit.
by Shawn Domagal-Goldman on Nov 19, 2009 1:53 AM CST up reply actions
Difference between Colvin/Jackson
lies in defense. Austin Jackson has a good shot to be a solid defensive CF, which they’ll need in that park, and with their options in the corners (although a move to Raburn full time will likely help their range out there a bit). Colvin’s more of a guy who, in his youth, can probably spot in CF, but is better suited for a corner role (whereas Brett Jackson’s a guy who can stick in CF, by most accounts)
one other note i'd make is that
I’m not sure how much value Jake Fox would have for them. They have a similar guy in Ryan Strieby who might be ready next year.
You had me for a while...
I was reading it thinking, this sounds pretty good. That is, until I started reading about your trade proposals and free agent signings.
Carlos Guillen at SS? Trade for Pat Burrell? Jake Fox is Pat Burrell, only a lot better (plus he can play 3B and C). I’d rather have Fox.
Sign Marlon Byrd? Have you looked at his career statistics? He usually doesn’t hit more than 10 home runs (this year was an anomaly), and bats around the same as Reed Johnson. Johnson’s better defensively, would be cheaper, and is an excellent teammate. Go ahead and waste $7 million on Byrd, who will probably hit .260 with 8 HR next year and become the next bad contract that we’ll be trying to get rid of.
Sign Felipe Lopez or Orlando Hudson? Why not just do what’s right and sign Mark DeRosa? Jeff Baker is not the supersub that everyone thinks he is. I’d rather have DeRosa when Ramirez inevitably goes down with an injury next year. I’d also rather have Fox for when Soriano hurts his leg, so that we don’t have to watch Bobby Scales (who is a free agent, thank God) or some other light-hitting player who belongs in the minors. I’m still trying to figure out why Piniella insisted on sitting Fox for the majority of the year in favor of guys like Andres Blanco, Scales, Fontenot, and Ryan Freel. Maybe that’s why he got 0 votes for Manager of the Year. I wonder how many wins that cost us this year?
If you want to take on bad contracts, take on Kerry Wood’s. At least he’d be useful to our team.
Bottom line is, get our character guys back (the ones who made us winners before last year’s debacle) and try to trade for Granderson.
tigers
cant dump guys like ordonez and willis because they make too much money. thats why they consider a guy like granderson to free up money. pretty stupid to blow up your team after almost making the playoffs. oops did,nt we do that in 09.almost forgot.

by 





















