Why (And How) The Cubs Should Trade For Curtis Granderson
The Detroit Tigers player has agreed to host a TV and online series titled "Stadium Secrets" where he takes sports fans on an exploration of stadiums.
The concept is similar to Authentic’s "Cities of the Underworld" on History channel.
"Authentic will be providing an exclusive, VIP experience for fans everywhere – a behind-the-scenes journey that will be exciting for all of us. I am eager to begin working on this project and look forward to a successful partnership," Granderson said.
Sounds interesting. I'm hoping Granderson gets to explore Wrigley Field in detail starting next summer. In the meantime, after the jump I'm going to examine Granderson's numbers in detail, explain why he's a perfect fit for Chicago and the Cubs, and look at who the Cubs might have to give the Tigers in exchange.
We have to first start this discussion with a couple of assumptions. First, we assume that Milton Bradley has been, or will be, traded before any Granderson deal, thus opening up center field for the Cubs (with Kosuke Fukudome moving back to right field, a position he plays better; this would solidify Cubs defense in two positions). It is, of course, possible that Bradley could be part of a deal for Granderson, but I am going to operate here under the assumption that he's not, that Bradley will be dealt to some other team (the Rays?) and that any Granderson trade would be a separate transaction.
Second, I think you have to assume that Granderson has to be, at this stage of his career -- he will be 29 on March 16, not old, but getting toward the end of his "best" year capability -- platooned, at least to some extent. His career splits:
vs. RHP: .292/.367/.528, .894 OPS vs. LHP: .210/.270/.344, .614 OPS
Last year it was even more extreme:
vs. RHP: .275/.358/.539, .897 OPS vs. LHP: .183/.245/.239, .484 OPS
Against RHP, Granderson hits almost as well as Aramis Ramirez -- All-Star level. Against LHP... well, he's basically Aaron Miles. So you'd probably want to re-sign Reed Johnson to give Granderson a break against LHP. Johnson doesn't hit righthanders, but against LHP his career line is .313/.378/.463, an OPS of .841, nearly as good as Granderson vs. RHP. These two together would produce outstanding offensive numbers from the CF position and good defense. The Tigers started Granderson in 155 games in 2009 because, well, they really didn't have any other choice. The other eight (remember, the Tigers played 163 games in 2009) games were started by Josh Anderson (1), Clete Thomas (2) and Ryan Raburn (5), and of those guys, only Raburn can hit (he hits LHP pretty well -- the Tigers could have gotten more offense out of CF if they had played Raburn there a bit more often vs. LHP).
So a modified platoon of Granderson and Reed Johnson would be, in my opinion, the ticket to success for the Cubs outfield. I say "modified" because Johnson would also have to spell Fukudome in RF from time to time; on those days, Granderson would have to start in CF vs. LHP. Sam Fuld would stick with the team as the fifth outfielder, someone who could take over in the late innings for Alfonso Soriano. The Cubs' outfield would be very good defensively and close to outstanding offensively.
Granderson's contract, though it has three full years to run (and a 2013 option) is not onerous. Like many Jim Hendry contracts in recent years, it's backloaded. In 2010, Granderson is due to make a somewhat-reasonable $5.5 million; that increases to $8.25 million in 2011 and $10 million in 2012, with a $2 million buyout in 2013 (all figures, as always, from the excellent Cot's Baseball Contracts), that would increase to $13 million (with some escalators to that based on performance) if the option is exercised. That would make the total financial commitment $25.25 million (presuming the buyout is done), spread over four years from 2010-2013. That's not unreasonable for a player of Granderson's ability.
Now -- how do you get him? The Tigers seem to be in partial-sell mode; that is, they'd like to shed some of their big-dollar contracts, but not get into full rebuilding mode. Thus, you'd need to get them at least a couple of players who could step in right now and contribute at the major league level. I can't find the link right now, but in a recent Baseball America online chat, a question was asked to BA's Jim Callis about this type of deal:
Q: Would Josh Vitters, Jake Fox, and Jay Jackson be enough for the Cubs to land Curtis Granderson if he really is available? Would you do that deal if you were the Cubs?
Jim Callis: I would think so. The Tigers have to dump salary, so I might try to hold onto Vitters and see if Detroit would take Ryan Flaherty, or hold onto Jackson and offer a lesser pitcher. But the Cubs are in win-now mode, and I think they'd bite.
I'd do this deal. Starlin Castro may be the flavor-of-the-month after his .376/.396/.491 performance in the Arizona Fall League, but I think he has higher upside than Vitters, who also hit well in the AFL (.353/.380/.455), and I would not trade Castro. It's entirely possible that Vitters will become a good major league player -- but you're getting a good major league player in return. Jake Fox is miscast in the National League; though he worked hard at playing 3B, C, LF and RF, his best position is DH. Throw in the fact that he played college ball at the University of Michigan, and he's a natural for Detroit. Jay Jackson has been up and down in the Cubs organization and while he has talent, I'm not quite sure what role the Cubs have in mind for him. He was exclusively a starter in 2009 after starting and relieving in 2008.
Callis thinks this would get a deal done and I'd do it -- but I suspect the Tigers might ask for Andrew Cashner instead of Jackson. That's a high price to pay -- Cashner has a shot at the major league bullpen for the Cubs in 2010 and he could even be viewed as a closer candidate by the Tigers, who are likely to let Fernando Rodney walk. (Rodney had a decent year in his first full season as closer, but will be 33 in March.)
I'd still do Vitters, Cashner and Fox for Granderson. For those of you who say, "No way! Keep those prospects! We can't give up both Vitters and Cashner!", I say that one of the things you can do with your prospects is turn them into productive major league players. The Cubs did this in acquiring Derrek Lee and Aramis Ramirez; when D-Lee was acquired he was just about the same age Granderson is now.
I might even do Vitters, Fox, Cashner AND Jackson for Granderson. To illustrate why, let me tell you a little story I just read about from Cubs history. Take it for what it's worth, because it came from the new edition of Leo Durocher's (ghostwritten by Ed Linn) autobiography, "Nice Guys Finish Last" (mini-book-review: recommended, for its interesting take on Durocher's era in baseball history). In it, he describes having discussions along with GM John Holland, with the Baltimore Orioles in the winter of 1971 about trading for Frank Robinson. According to the book, the Orioles asked for five young players -- pitchers Earl Stephenson, Jim Colborn, Bill Bonham, Joe Decker and outfielder Brock Davis. Durocher's book says they hedged, asking to make it four-for-one, not wanting to give up both Decker and Bonham.
You know what? They should have offered Baltimore GM Frank Cashen a handshake and done the deal right then and there. The next day, Robinson was traded to the Dodgers -- for four minor leaguers, only one of whom (Doyle Alexander) had a significant major league career.
The day after that, the Cubs traded Stephenson, Colborn and Davis to the Brewers for Jose Cardenal. Stephenson and Davis never had any significant impact in the major leagues. Colborn did have a few decent major league seasons, winning 20 games for the Brewers in 1973. Bill Bonham never became the big winner the Cubs thought he would; eventually he was traded to the Reds for Woodie Fryman and Bill Caudill. Joe Decker was traded to the Twins (with Bill Hands) a year later for Dave LaRoche.
None of those deals would have had the impact that getting Frank Robinson to play right field for the 1972 Cubs would have had. At 35, Robinson was past his best years, but would have been a far better hitter in Wrigley Field than he was in Dodger Stadium that year. (Robinson also got hurt in 1972 and missed almost 60 games; whether that would have happened to him as a Cub is unknown, obviously.)
The 1972 Cubs finished fourth in the league in runs scored and would have been a better offensive team with Frank Robinson than they were with Jose Cardenal; neither Bonham nor Decker had any significant impact on the '72 team.
The point is, that sometimes you have to take team "prospects" -- who may never pan out to what you hope they will -- to win now. Trading Vitters and Jay Jackson -- or even Vitters, Jackson and Cashner -- may provide dividends to the Detroit Tigers two or three years down the road. But acquiring Curtis Granderson, who, in addition to his talent on the field, is also, from all reports, a good clubhouse guy who spends a lot of time giving back to the community (and is a native Chicagoan), would go a long way to helping the 2010 Cubs return to the playoffs and give them a chance to win it all.
And isn't that what we all want?
As we often say here... GETITDON EJIM.
2 recs |
414 comments
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Comments
Granderson is the new Roberts.
I’m already tired of reading his name on BCB.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Nov 20, 2009 11:41 AM CST reply actions
Yabbut...
… this one might actually happen. For one thing, the Tigers don’t have an owner with Granderson as his favorite player.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I'm not going to care or comment about him anymore until it does.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Nov 20, 2009 11:47 AM CST up reply actions
Starting now? n/t
"Chicago baseball fans, who are composites of scar tissue and mortifying memories..." - George F. Will
Yes, now. This is my last post on the matter.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Nov 20, 2009 11:52 AM CST up reply actions
Granderson has been my favorite non-cubs player in baseball for a few years
I love everything about his game and attitude and want this deal to get done as much as anyone here, even if it does mean giving up some of these prospects (no need to give an exhaustive list of hot cubs prospects that were traded or let go after their value had plummeted).
That being said, the last few years you have been a big proponent of the theory “the deals you hear about most are the ones that don’t get done,” and you have certainly been vindicated in that regard, at least in respect to Peavy and Roberts. I fear this will be the same. I like you being on our side this time though, unlike Peavy!
It would have been great to get Peavy, obviously.
I just never thought it would happen, and it didn’t.
Hopefully, this one will.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
The thing with hot prospects is....
it’s a crap shoot if they become starts or busts. Granderson is a know quaintity.
That’s not true!!! WHY THE F*CK WOULD YOU SAY THAT YOU AHOLE!! Ok maybe your right but you gotta give a little something here for it to work. I don’t know what I’m going to do this is the worst thing I’ve ever read, this day could not get any worse. Fine, F*ck it, you’re right.
by Ditkavsworld
yes but,
some prospects you need to hang on to, so they can work out for your team. remember the best way to win is to build from within, and then plug holes via trades or FA signings.
Not saying Vitters or jackson are gonna be stars, but you never know…
"Chicago baseball fans, who are composites of scar tissue and mortifying memories..." - George F. Will
"You never know" is exactly the point.
If the Cubs were in rebuilding mode, sure, you try to build a good system and build from within.
But they’re not. And as I said, part of the reason to have a farm system is to trade “prospects” for major league talent.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al Yellon on Nov 20, 2009 11:52 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
And further...
… you said “plug holes via trades”. Exactly who are you proposing to use in these trades, if not prospects?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I would try...
with some of the grounds crew and see if the other team will bite.
by CubsWin!Oregon on Nov 20, 2009 11:54 AM CST up reply actions
We do have an
excellent ground crew. :)
by CubsWin!Oregon on Nov 20, 2009 11:55 AM CST up reply actions
True.
If we could trade four ground crew members for Curtis Granderson, I’d be all for it.
FWIW, the head groundskeeper in Detroit is a woman, Heather Nabozny, the first woman to have such a position in MLB.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Al how do you know this stuff?
"If I were playing third base and my mother were rounding third with the run that was going to beat us, I'd trip her. Oh, I'd pick her up and brush her off and say, 'Sorry, Mom,' but nobody beats me." ~ Leo Durocher
by Musicdude10 on Nov 20, 2009 12:02 PM CST up reply actions
Me too
But man, stuff like that I’d never find
Do you have an equivalent to MLBTR for obscure facts?
"If I were playing third base and my mother were rounding third with the run that was going to beat us, I'd trip her. Oh, I'd pick her up and brush her off and say, 'Sorry, Mom,' but nobody beats me." ~ Leo Durocher
by Musicdude10 on Nov 20, 2009 12:04 PM CST up reply actions
I guess the difference between you and me...
Is I don’t think to myself, “I wonder if there’s a female groundskeeper in the MLB or if there ever has been….”
Hehe
"If I were playing third base and my mother were rounding third with the run that was going to beat us, I'd trip her. Oh, I'd pick her up and brush her off and say, 'Sorry, Mom,' but nobody beats me." ~ Leo Durocher
by Musicdude10 on Nov 20, 2009 12:07 PM CST up reply actions
LMAO
I don’t either. I just heard this story somewhere.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Uh huh
Suuuuure
“Somewhere” sounds like a very reliable source….
"If I were playing third base and my mother were rounding third with the run that was going to beat us, I'd trip her. Oh, I'd pick her up and brush her off and say, 'Sorry, Mom,' but nobody beats me." ~ Leo Durocher
by Musicdude10 on Nov 20, 2009 12:19 PM CST up reply actions
Does Playboy count as reading?
That’s not true!!! WHY THE F*CK WOULD YOU SAY THAT YOU AHOLE!! Ok maybe your right but you gotta give a little something here for it to work. I don’t know what I’m going to do this is the worst thing I’ve ever read, this day could not get any worse. Fine, F*ck it, you’re right.
by Ditkavsworld
Heather is a Spartan!
We know our grass…
Now only 12,859 on the "Cubs Season Tickets Waiting List"...
We could try offering them
some of the BCB crowd. I’ve heard that their blog stats were not very good last season with a LpP of only .125 for left handed typing.
Well, I never heard it before, but it sounds uncommon nonsense.
- The Mock Turtle, Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll -
by eths on Nov 20, 2009 1:32 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
I don't think you have to be in rebuilding mode
While I agree that part of the reason to have a farm system is to trade prospects, the reality is that in a short 5 or 7 game postseason series, anyone can win. So the only real way to increase the probability of winning the World Series is to get to the postseason every year, or near enough to that. Trading everything to “win now” could arguably reduce the probability of winning the WS, as it may reduce the chance of being in the postseason for several years after the current one.
by false cognate on Nov 20, 2009 12:05 PM CST up reply actions
Ah, see, now this is just where we go so wrong.
Detroit made the mistake of thinking Dontrelle Willis was a known quantity. Seattle made the mistake of thinking Carlos Silva was a known quantity. We though Aaron Miles was a known quantity. The farther away the prospect is, the more he may be unknown, but if he flops, you’re out a whole lot less money.
Is he traded yet?
Ahh you caught me...
I am for this trade!
"Chicago baseball fans, who are composites of scar tissue and mortifying memories..." - George F. Will
Strange, reply did not work...
"Chicago baseball fans, who are composites of scar tissue and mortifying memories..." - George F. Will
That's happened to me before.
Just some weird tech-hiccup I guess.
by CubsWin!Oregon on Nov 20, 2009 11:56 AM CST up reply actions
yeah, and when I try to post it asked me to save the file??
"Chicago baseball fans, who are composites of scar tissue and mortifying memories..." - George F. Will
That's really weird.
Send an email to support (at) sbnation (dot) com, tell them what happened and what OS and browser you are using.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Done
"Chicago baseball fans, who are composites of scar tissue and mortifying memories..." - George F. Will
teste reply
"Chicago baseball fans, who are composites of scar tissue and mortifying memories..." - George F. Will
is that testy
or somewhere lower?
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Nov 20, 2009 1:09 PM CST up reply actions
I hope not.
"Chicago baseball fans, who are composites of scar tissue and mortifying memories..." - George F. Will
tested again
"Chicago baseball fans, who are composites of scar tissue and mortifying memories..." - George F. Will
No, it's German...
It is a short version of: Ich teste Reply…
Well, I never heard it before, but it sounds uncommon nonsense.
- The Mock Turtle, Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll -
by eths on Nov 20, 2009 1:38 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Three of the four...
…Fox, Vitters, and Jackson would be enough. Asking for Cashner is a stretch, don’t want to start the Ricketts-era by trading the top farm arm.
"Anyone on our team that thinks we are cursed will be moved to a lesser-cursed team"
-Tom Ricketts
Like I said...
… sometimes you have to give up quality talent to get quality talent.
Fantasy-league type deals that are sometimes proposed here, where we give up all our crap for the other team’s stars, never work.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
True,
however, i think your proposal falls into the fantasy category unless you include:
1) Castro or
2) Significant salary relief in the form of one (and most likely two of the tigers’ bad contracts) – this has been discussed already.
Including Castro in the deal is simply a matter of scarcity. Just as CG is a scarce commodity as a power-hitting, plus-defending, lefty, CF, Castro’s value has a significant premium over other prospects simply bc four/five star SS prospects are pretty scarce.
Teams simply don’t trade away scarce, proven commodities unless they’re getting a scarce commodity in return. Vitters, Cashner and Jackson are not scare. Nor, certainly, is Jake Fox.
These type of franchise player trades tend to be divisive. A BCB poll regarding a CG deal involving Castro, would yield something like a 60/40 split against the trade. Similarly, a poll at SBC’s Tigers blog would yield about an 80/20 against (in part, bc Castro might be a new name for many). I think that’s a clear indicator that a trade idea has moved beyond the fantasy realm. CG’s scarcity is bolstered by the fact that he’s a pillar (and we’d agree that’s not hyperbole) of his community. IMO, scarcity for scarcity is the only way this deal gets done without taking on a lot of bad contracts.
I can understand why so many posters buy into this idea.
But it’s worth pointing out that smarter baseball minds than ours, like the quoted Callis, have not seen it this way.
Is he traded yet?
+10
Cashner seems to be one of the rare prospects who doesn’t have a ton of issues to work out that aren’t easy to fix. Vitters has fielding and selection issues, Jackson supposedly has discipline issues. I really like the kid and trading him would be too much IMO. I think we could throw in Theriot instead of Cashner and Jackson if we really wanted, and throw in a lesser prospect.
"If I were playing third base and my mother were rounding third with the run that was going to beat us, I'd trip her. Oh, I'd pick her up and brush her off and say, 'Sorry, Mom,' but nobody beats me." ~ Leo Durocher
by Musicdude10 on Nov 20, 2009 12:01 PM CST up reply actions
It would be nice if the Tigers would take Aaron Miles' contract...
… to mitigate some of the money. But it’s not a requirement.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Now THAT's a pipe dream
They’d be stupid to take Theriot and Miles, both are SS’s and the Tigers already have a few SS candidates
"If I were playing third base and my mother were rounding third with the run that was going to beat us, I'd trip her. Oh, I'd pick her up and brush her off and say, 'Sorry, Mom,' but nobody beats me." ~ Leo Durocher
by Musicdude10 on Nov 20, 2009 12:05 PM CST up reply actions
As a Tigers fan, no thank you.
You signed him. You keep him.
Now only 12,859 on the "Cubs Season Tickets Waiting List"...
Milton transcends my "Cubness." As a fan of the Cubs and Tigers I don't want him on either team.
Isn’t there some Japanese team that would take him off our hands? He’d be a real hit overseas.
Now only 12,859 on the "Cubs Season Tickets Waiting List"...
lol. I forget I was commenting on Miles.
Same hold true.
Now only 12,859 on the "Cubs Season Tickets Waiting List"...
A little gunshy after taking Neifi Perez, eh?
Come visit me inside Wrigley along the Addison side mezzanine fence straight up from 1st base.
by section229beer on Nov 20, 2009 9:15 PM CST up reply actions
Actually
I would be all for it. But understand with regards to the Cubs, I am skeptical right now. Maybe something like this will turn me around. Because if they do not make any major moves this off season, I am fearful next year will be much of the same as this past year.
Trade Doug Deeds to Washington.
Jaramillo
With all this talk and excitement about Jaramillo, who is “widely regarded” as the best hitting coach in baseball… I wonder what he could do with Granderson’s problems against LHP. If he’s as good as advertised, surely something.
I love the thought of a Granderson/Johnson platoon. Seems very ideal. As much as I like Jake Fox, I’d do the deal that you proposed in a second.
Presumably...
… the Cubs could afford to re-sign Johnson after moving (most) of Bradley’s deal.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Al ...
multiple reporters — Levine, Musgrave, Sullivan — have ALL said that Reed won’t be back.
Who's Musgrave?
Anyway, just because reporters say it, doesn’t make it so.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
...
…
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Nov 20, 2009 1:10 PM CST up reply actions
You sound like me now
when I questioned the supposed shocking interest in Bradley that Rosenthal mentioned :-)
Pretty sure he meant Muskrat
I probably spelled that wrong. Carrie Muskrat, the MLB.com reporter for the Cubs
"If I were playing third base and my mother were rounding third with the run that was going to beat us, I'd trip her. Oh, I'd pick her up and brush her off and say, 'Sorry, Mom,' but nobody beats me." ~ Leo Durocher
Muskat
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Nov 20, 2009 2:27 PM CST up reply actions
Muskrat?

Dum spiro spero…
Follow me on twitter or else: @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Nov 20, 2009 2:45 PM CST up reply actions
I knew it sounded funny
Too lazy to look it up
"If I were playing third base and my mother were rounding third with the run that was going to beat us, I'd trip her. Oh, I'd pick her up and brush her off and say, 'Sorry, Mom,' but nobody beats me." ~ Leo Durocher
Can I quote you on that?
like the next time you use some reporter’s statement in support of your position?
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
I'm not sure they've ever said it definitively.
Feel free to post a link proving me wrong, though.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Nov 20, 2009 2:27 PM CST up reply actions
Here's MUSKAT's piece
“Harden and Johnson both have expressed an interest in returning to Chicago, but because of other contract commitments, the Cubs most likely cannot afford either one. Gregg knew he wasn’t coming back when Marmol was named closer on Aug. 18.”
Does that completely close the door on Reed? I guess not. I’m just baffled at the desire to bring Reed back (at around $3 million for a cash-strapped team). I like Reed Johnson, but I’m amazed that Cubs fans, BCB posters and Al think he’s so important for the Cubs next year.
That sounds like Muskat's speculation.
And it happened before Heilman was traded, and before Bradley likely will be traded.
Johnson’s not the be-all and end-all of major league players. But he would be a very good platoon partner for Curtis Granderson.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Unless Reed is willing to take a big pay cut
he won’t be a Cub next year. I’ll even wager you on that, Al.
"Big Gulps, huh?
Whelp…see ya later."
by CubsWin!Oregon on Nov 20, 2009 3:05 PM CST up reply actions
TWSA
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Nov 20, 2009 3:58 PM CST up reply actions
The guy has said he wants to stay in Chicago
He seems like a great clubhouse guy
I hope they’ll find a way to keep him around
But I agree with you, I doubt he’ll be back
"If I were playing third base and my mother were rounding third with the run that was going to beat us, I'd trip her. Oh, I'd pick her up and brush her off and say, 'Sorry, Mom,' but nobody beats me." ~ Leo Durocher
Well, RJ rips left-handed pitching...
…and plays decent defense. (Er, well, his career UZR numbers in both CF and RF aren’t pretty, but anyway…) He’s a hard-working player who’s, by all accounts, a great clubhouse guy. So I think he has a lot of value. I don’t see him as indispensable, but he’s a known quantity who deserves to be in the conversation.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Nov 20, 2009 2:45 PM CST up reply actions
agreed that he should be in the conversation
But I’m shocked at the certainty from some that he’ll be back and/or the hope that he’ll be back. He’s a fourth outfielder (with health issues) who get bonus points because he works hard and is a good guy.
What she is also forgetting
is the collapsing FA market. A LOT of players will be in for rude awakenings. I would be stunned if Reed was able to secure anything above about a $2M one year deal. He is a nice guy and a good fit… but who’s going to pay more than that for a guy who at best is a platoon partner?
So I think RJ may still be in play, once the market starts to develop.
I definitely want to get Granderson, but I'm not sure I'd do...
Vitters, Fox, Jackson AND Cashner. I’ll grant that 1) you have to give some to get some, 2) that prospects aren’t sure things, and that 3) we can all name instances where near-trades of prospects should’ve had their trigger pulled (hindsight being 20/20). But there’s a limit to that logic and you don’t empty your farm because you lack certainty that all/any of your prospects will work out. (I realize you know that Al, I’m just thinking out loud).
I’m hoping we’re able to get Granderson. I just think that 3 of those 4 will have to do it. Which I think can happen if we play our cards right and not make it seem that we’re desperate.
Good summarization of the idea though, Al.
by CubsWin!Oregon on Nov 20, 2009 12:03 PM CST reply actions
Still some issues, although this sounds good on paper
To get Granderson, we need a Reed Johnson type.
To get a Reed Johnson type, we need money
To get money, or to know how much we have, we need to trade that guy nobody likes and figure out what we’d be getting in return. Is it safe to assume the money will be even there? Don’t be so sure
"If I were playing third base and my mother were rounding third with the run that was going to beat us, I'd trip her. Oh, I'd pick her up and brush her off and say, 'Sorry, Mom,' but nobody beats me." ~ Leo Durocher
If I am Fuld
I am putting this comment on my resume…
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is." -- Yogi Berra
Include Tyler Colvin in the deal??
He’s one name I don’t see brought up. Is he untouchable, or worthless?
He can play a hell of a defensive centerfield, which is a necessity for Comerica. His inclusion would help the tigers with a CF replacement. If you’re willing to sell the farm, is he included, too?
Come visit me inside Wrigley along the Addison side mezzanine fence straight up from 1st base.
by section229beer on Nov 20, 2009 12:07 PM CST reply actions
I think his worth isn't high at this point
He had some success this year but he was expected to be much farther along by now. If he continues to improve, I wouldn’t be surprised to see him at Wrigley again or included in a deadline deal. At this point they are better off keeping him IMO
"If I were playing third base and my mother were rounding third with the run that was going to beat us, I'd trip her. Oh, I'd pick her up and brush her off and say, 'Sorry, Mom,' but nobody beats me." ~ Leo Durocher
by Musicdude10 on Nov 20, 2009 12:08 PM CST up reply actions
I would say Colvin or Fox
One stays to be 4th/5th OF.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Nov 20, 2009 12:08 PM CST up reply actions
Fox has more value in this trade than Colvin
Fox is more proven and is a better fit on an AL team
Colvin still has things to prove and can play in the NL. Defensive subs always have a spot in the NL
"If I were playing third base and my mother were rounding third with the run that was going to beat us, I'd trip her. Oh, I'd pick her up and brush her off and say, 'Sorry, Mom,' but nobody beats me." ~ Leo Durocher
by Musicdude10 on Nov 20, 2009 12:09 PM CST up reply actions
And Fox really doesn't have a natural spot on the Cubs
NL team, so no DH prospect. In the field, LF may be his best spot and for the Cubs to win they need Soriano to perform there.
I'm slowly starting to view this whole situation differently...
I think I’d love to see Curtis in a Cub uni, but at what cost?
I’m starting to think that it might not be worth it to give up ANY of our prospects. Along with giving up Milton (if possible) for some prospects (along with what we got from the recent Heilman deal), I think I’d prefer at this point to let some prospects stockpile for a year… see things through.
My reasoning is that I don’t see Granderson putting the Cubs over the hump, and I don’t like mortgaging the next 5 years by taking on bad contracts and giving away young players. Can you imagine if Aramis’s shoulder won’t heal and he becomes a liabilty, and Vitters is gone? (Jeebus forbid…)
We’ve spent the last 7 years spending and giving away prospects, which has kept us in contention for at least 5 of those years… if we keep doing it, we need to do it BETTER.
"This next song... it's about the White Sox. It's called: F*** Em'." - Eddie Vedder
That's why we go out and sign
DEROSAAAAAA
(sarcasm)
That’s a legitimate concern but Vitters is not MLB ready this year. So trading him would not help us if Aramis is hurt this year
Could Castro/Lee be taught 3B?
"If I were playing third base and my mother were rounding third with the run that was going to beat us, I'd trip her. Oh, I'd pick her up and brush her off and say, 'Sorry, Mom,' but nobody beats me." ~ Leo Durocher
by Musicdude10 on Nov 20, 2009 12:11 PM CST up reply actions
I'm thinking longer term
I hate to say it, but I don’t see Aramis staying healthy for an entire season for the rest of his career. I hope to sweet holy hell I’m wrong, but I think staying on top of it for another year wouldn’t hurt.
There are way too many questionables this year in terms of health and productivity for the entire team. You can’t pretend that a year like last year didn’t happen, even if it was an aberration.
"This next song... it's about the White Sox. It's called: F*** Em'." - Eddie Vedder
Oh I totally agree
But the only way Vitters wears pinstripes this year at Wrigley is if someone does a good photoshop job
I think the Cubs are counting on Jeff Baker for 3B duty right now
Who else is out there that can back up 3B? My vote would be to go out and get a guy like Chad Tracy
"If I were playing third base and my mother were rounding third with the run that was going to beat us, I'd trip her. Oh, I'd pick her up and brush her off and say, 'Sorry, Mom,' but nobody beats me." ~ Leo Durocher
The worst thing that could happen
Is too bring up these prospects. It will hurt the trade value.
That’s not true!!! WHY THE F*CK WOULD YOU SAY THAT YOU AHOLE!! Ok maybe your right but you gotta give a little something here for it to work. I don’t know what I’m going to do this is the worst thing I’ve ever read, this day could not get any worse. Fine, F*ck it, you’re right.
by Ditkavsworld
Well there is Fox.
He didn’t butcher the position in 2009, but of course, if he’s part of a Granderson trade, then he’s out of the equation.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
That's what I was counting on
I think Al’s right, a team like the Tigers, who need more money, would be glad to take Fox and probably have more use for him than we ever will
"If I were playing third base and my mother were rounding third with the run that was going to beat us, I'd trip her. Oh, I'd pick her up and brush her off and say, 'Sorry, Mom,' but nobody beats me." ~ Leo Durocher
I fully agree.
And if Fox is gone, then I’d be all for bringing in Chad Tracy.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
The Bring Chad Tracy To Chicago Once Milton Bradley, Jake Fox, and Micah Hoffpauir Are Gone Club
Has begun!!!!
w00000000t
"If I were playing third base and my mother were rounding third with the run that was going to beat us, I'd trip her. Oh, I'd pick her up and brush her off and say, 'Sorry, Mom,' but nobody beats me." ~ Leo Durocher
Two members!!!
Although I might have to quit….check out my new fanpost
"If I were playing third base and my mother were rounding third with the run that was going to beat us, I'd trip her. Oh, I'd pick her up and brush her off and say, 'Sorry, Mom,' but nobody beats me." ~ Leo Durocher
Chad Tracy wouldn't be a bad idea.
He’d take the Hoffpauir late inning PH duty (and do better at it) and could play LF, RF, 1B and 3B.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I've been an advocate of his for a while
What do you do with Hoff? Send him to Iowa or just let him go?
I imagine he has more value than Miles, but I imagine he’s just a throw-in at best for a trade
"If I were playing third base and my mother were rounding third with the run that was going to beat us, I'd trip her. Oh, I'd pick her up and brush her off and say, 'Sorry, Mom,' but nobody beats me." ~ Leo Durocher
The question is cost
And does he replace Reed Johnson on the depth chart? Can you have both on the team?
"If I were playing third base and my mother were rounding third with the run that was going to beat us, I'd trip her. Oh, I'd pick her up and brush her off and say, 'Sorry, Mom,' but nobody beats me." ~ Leo Durocher
He could be useful (no sarcasm)
The open desire for DeRosa to return this year had two sources. One was DeRosa as the embodiment of better seasons in 2007 and 2008. The other was that the Cubs could really have used a player like him, especially once Miles proved to be a bust. Fukudome didn’t hit his weight against lefties and 3B was disaster area while Ramirez was hurt. That’s not to say the DeRosa trade itself was good or bad, but the Cubs wound up really missing what he offered in 2009, and look like they could still use that kind of player in 2010.
Jeff Baker's on Line 2.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Nov 20, 2009 3:07 PM CST up reply actions
OK - but we'll see if he hits as well
He did fine with Chicago, but his career production has been spotty – in Denver, no less.
Tracy may also have plate productivity issues – he has fallen off in part-time work in Arizona. And as a LH hitter, he won’t provide as effective in relieving Fukudome or Granderson (shoud the Cubs actually get Granderson).
It's great that Tracy plays the OF
But I’m more interested in the fact that he’s a legit back up for 3B and 1B, unlike Fox. If you get Tracy though, Hoffpauir is gone
"If I were playing third base and my mother were rounding third with the run that was going to beat us, I'd trip her. Oh, I'd pick her up and brush her off and say, 'Sorry, Mom,' but nobody beats me." ~ Leo Durocher
With the exception of Juan Pierre fiasco
when did we ever trade prospects that came back to bite us. With players like Patterson, Hill, Cedeno we probably held on too long. We got Ramirez for Hill, Lee for Choi, Harden for Donaldson, Grabow and Gorzo for Hart & Ascanio ( now injured) Gregg
for Ceda etc. Maybe we did always get great players back but I really don’t see the star that got away via trade.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Nov 20, 2009 12:17 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Matt Clement for Dontrelle Willis
Although at this point, given both of their careers, that might be a wash…
"If I were playing third base and my mother were rounding third with the run that was going to beat us, I'd trip her. Oh, I'd pick her up and brush her off and say, 'Sorry, Mom,' but nobody beats me." ~ Leo Durocher
by Musicdude10 on Nov 20, 2009 12:19 PM CST up reply actions
Without Matt Clement the Cubs don't go the post season in 03
Nor do they get so close to winning it.Nothing wrong with that deal. FYI it has been widely reported that the Marlins wanted Z not Willis but the Cubs would not give him up.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Nov 20, 2009 12:23 PM CST up reply actions
IIRC
Clement didn’t win a game all post season, it was all Prior and Wood. He did have a solid regular season though.
I didn’t know that about Zambrano
At different points in time it looked like both teams won the deal. Now that both are gone from each team, I think it’s a wash
"If I were playing third base and my mother were rounding third with the run that was going to beat us, I'd trip her. Oh, I'd pick her up and brush her off and say, 'Sorry, Mom,' but nobody beats me." ~ Leo Durocher
Incorrect
Clement won Game 4 of the NLCS after Ramirez hit a grand slam in the first. He also won the second game of the clinching doubleheader sweep against the Pirates.
"You know, you should be a lot more careful crossing the street like that, otherwise you could die - if that bothers you."
Rats I was typing mine while you posted yours.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Nov 20, 2009 2:32 PM CST up reply actions
I guess I beat you to it
I don’t know what to make of the fact I can remember every game of the 2003 playoffs like they were played last month, but I can barely remember some of the games this year.
"You know, you should be a lot more careful crossing the street like that, otherwise you could die - if that bothers you."
Forgetfulness
The name of the author is the first to go
followed obediently by the title, the plot,
the heartbreaking conclusion, the entire novel
which suddenly becomes one you have never read,
never even heard of,
as if, one by one, the memories you used to harbor
decided to retire to the southern hemisphere of the brain,
to a little fishing village where there are no phones.
Long ago you kissed the names of the nine Muses goodbye
and watched the quadratic equation pack its bag,
and even now as you memorize the order of the planets,
something else is slipping away, a state flower perhaps,
the address of an uncle, the capital of Paraguay.
Whatever it is you are struggling to remember,
it is not poised on the tip of your tongue,
not even lurking in some obscure corner of your spleen.
It has floated away down a dark mythological river
whose name begins with an L as far as you can recall,
well on your own way to oblivion where you will join those
who have even forgotten how to swim and how to ride a bicycle.
No wonder you rise in the middle of the night
to look up the date of a famous battle in a book on war.
No wonder the moon in the window seems to have drifted
out of a love poem that you used to know by heart.
Billy Collins
Cubs Supreme in Baseball World.
Alas...
…28 isn’t old (except compared to these “New Moon” watching whippersnappers). I think 2003 meant a little bit too much to me, for various reasons.
"You know, you should be a lot more careful crossing the street like that, otherwise you could die - if that bothers you."
Please don't become one of those
I guess I’m young enough (20) to be considered one. But the way these people obsess over that movie/movies scares me
They’re not even real vampires!!!
urgh. I got myself all ticked off now…
"If I were playing third base and my mother were rounding third with the run that was going to beat us, I'd trip her. Oh, I'd pick her up and brush her off and say, 'Sorry, Mom,' but nobody beats me." ~ Leo Durocher
Searing experiences are like that
I can still visualize how flat Prior’s slider was in the 8th inning of game 6.
You are right about the Pirates
I don’t remember the NLCS game. I remember the grand slam. It’s entirely possible and you’re probably right
"If I were playing third base and my mother were rounding third with the run that was going to beat us, I'd trip her. Oh, I'd pick her up and brush her off and say, 'Sorry, Mom,' but nobody beats me." ~ Leo Durocher
Clement won game 4 of the NLCS
I was there in Florida with my little Matt Clement "chin hair’ piece of shag carpetting on. Was a big win too or so it seemed at the time. However he also won what might be the most important regular season game which was game 2 of DH on the last Saturday which enabled the Cubs to clinch. Had they not won , Wood would have had to
throw Sunday instead of being available for game one of the NLDS.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Nov 20, 2009 2:32 PM CST up reply actions
I wonder how much those chin things would go for on ebay...
Can’t access Ebay at work :(
"If I were playing third base and my mother were rounding third with the run that was going to beat us, I'd trip her. Oh, I'd pick her up and brush her off and say, 'Sorry, Mom,' but nobody beats me." ~ Leo Durocher
It is NOT for sale
One of my favorite bits of Cub memorobelia even if hardly anyone would recognize a somewhat rectangular piece of carpeting with adhesive on the back. Some clever Cub fan sold them in the Parking lot in Florida before game 4.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Nov 21, 2009 10:56 AM CST up reply actions
It doesn't have to be yours, I just want one haha
"If I were playing third base and my mother were rounding third with the run that was going to beat us, I'd trip her. Oh, I'd pick her up and brush her off and say, 'Sorry, Mom,' but nobody beats me." ~ Leo Durocher
by Musicdude10 on Nov 21, 2009 12:47 PM CST up reply actions
I remember seeing those on TV
It was a hilarious, um, homage…
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is." -- Yogi Berra
Juan Pierre
I see this as closer to a Juan Pierre deal than anything. Do you want to give up 4 of your top 5 prospects for a platoon player? I bet they could get him for significantly less.
Granderson was excellent in 2007, Very good in 2008, average at best in 2009 (despite the 30 HRs).
Like Juan Pierre, Granderson is a hard worker and model citizen. So from that standpoint they’re better than with Bradley. But I’m sure Aaron Miles is a nice guy, too, and look how that worked out.
Granderson is a far better player than Pierre.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al Yellon on Nov 20, 2009 12:42 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Absolutely
Pierre ended up being so much more one-dimensional than I ever could have imagined.
Don’t get me wrong here, I want to see Granderson in a Cub uniform. I’d prefer it be without giving up so much young talent.
"This next song... it's about the White Sox. It's called: F*** Em'." - Eddie Vedder
For starters, he can throw a baseball
A skill Pierre has never had, and a major weakness in CF.
Lower BA, higher OBP, and I don’t recall Pierre ever hitting 30 HR.
I'm not saying don't trade them
I’m say, wait for something better to come in the near future. Who knows, maybe they end up stars here, but at least you aren’t trading away 4 of your best prospects for a possibly-declining CF who can’t hit lefties.
"This next song... it's about the White Sox. It's called: F*** Em'." - Eddie Vedder
Wait for something better?
Like what? And let another championshipless year go by?
Uh-uh. Not me. Win now.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Strange things happen by July 31st
All I’m saying is that I would be willing to hold on to my top prospects for a year and take the chance that it will hurt the team THIS year in order to not sacrifice the next several. I think that’s the path the Cubs would head down were a trade like this happen.
Hate to say it, but I don’t think 2010 is THE year.
"This next song... it's about the White Sox. It's called: F*** Em'." - Eddie Vedder
Every year is win-now, the way this team is built.
You can get a good player now, do it. Waiting till July 31 — silly.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
not silly - it's a tactic
warning – you are about to enter the What If zone…
What if we sell the farm and get Granderson now. Then come May, what if ARam goes down with another injury – this time more serious. Or maybe it’s Lee this time. Or Z, Dempster, Lilly, etc. Essentially an injury situation catastrophic enough that for all intents and purposes, the season is over.
Or what if the injury scenario is not that drastic but St Louis goes great guns out of the gate and has a 15 game lead in July, i.e. season is over.
Now what if we keep the farm and don’t trade for Granderson now. Next season, maybe somebody gets hurt but not too bad. Or St Louis jumps out but not too far ahead. In other words, things are grim but not dismal so there’s still a fighting chance come July. If we still have the farm, so to speak, now we can sell it to fill an area of specific need…
_ _ _ _ _
Obviously, you won’t get far in life (and baseball) if you let the What If zone control your thought process. But when you look at pulling the trigger now vs pulling it next July, I just don’t think it’s fair to say either one is silly. They both have their risks and rewards.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Do you want egg in your beer, too
Better players don’t get moved much. Do any of the low-budget team have a better CF than Granderson? If not, don’t look to get one in trade/FA.
And yeah, win now, dammit!
Not necessarily better in skill
Maybe a better deal.
"This next song... it's about the White Sox. It's called: F*** Em'." - Eddie Vedder
The Cubs got lucky twice lately with CFs in the remainder aisle
Lofton and Edmunds. But you can’t count on that kind of luck and they were only short-term solutions.
Look, the Cubs have real fielding issues in the OF and the only way to fix them with one player is to improve CF. Granderson has some hitting issues, but the Cubs already have enough RH hitting in the lineup. CFs with no issues go for $18M/year, 5 years.
"Declining"?
He’s 29. He’ll still be good and underpaid throughout his contract unless an injury saps him significantly.
Is he traded yet?
"Declining" may have been a poor choice of words.
Maybe.
But batting in the .180’s vs LHP is not a good sign if you plan to play every day.
"This next song... it's about the White Sox. It's called: F*** Em'." - Eddie Vedder
granderson has never hit LHP
1 Aaron down, 1 to go
by jesus christos on Nov 20, 2009 7:10 PM CST up reply actions
Play him and have Jaramillo work with him.
Granderson in CF lets you put a RH bat in RF. Fukudome’s LH pitcher splits were worse than Granderson in 2009, but he doesn’t play CF as well.
Yeah, I'm very warm to this idea....
I would expect that the Tigers might be more inclined to seek an extra pitcher, as opposed to Vitters, but this looks like potentially a very nice deal for both sides.
Now you just have to worry about the Yankees pitching Melky, with a promise to take a bad contract back.
I have been all over getting Granderson
and have said so since early August. Hopefully the Yankees stay out of the mix. I think the fact we traded Heilman for 2 minor leaguers could only help us get a deal for Granderson done. Maybe we get a 3 way with the Rays to get this done. Bradley and Fox end up in Tampa, Burrell and prospects end up in Detriot with Gullien and Granderson coming to the Cubs. I’m sure cash would have to be given to both clubs by us but I think it could be doable.
I think the Tigers could move Edwin Jackson and Mags to the Angels if Vlad doesn’t resign, which would give room for Burrell to play some OF & DH for the Tigers.
by Cubsfan Waveland on Nov 20, 2009 12:43 PM CST up reply actions
Melky's 2009 was meh
He’s not the flavor of the month any more.
True - but if I'm the Tigers...
I am interested in getting rid of a bad contract or two. Of course, I’m also interested in reeling in some top prospects. So it becomes a balancing act for all involved.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
One thing I would like
is to see Fuld, Johnson and Fukudome in the outfield late in a game with a lead. If any threesome could catch it, those three could. I like it!
This is only the beginning....Lou Pinella end of '07 season and Chicago Transit Authority (the band when they were really good).
I think that happened once or twice in Sept.
In any event I am convinced that when the music stops Fuld has a chair and Johnson doesn’t it.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Nov 20, 2009 12:25 PM CST up reply actions
your dining room
doesn’t count, Jessica. :P
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Nov 20, 2009 12:56 PM CST up reply actions
Oh right my "dining room"
Next to foyer in between the library and the rec room, all in my less than 300 square foot apartment. I am guessing Fuld can find plenty of room at his wife’s place in NYC, she is in some kind of banking. I will stick to watching him diving for balls and running the bases.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Nov 20, 2009 2:41 PM CST up reply actions
TWSS
Diving for balls….hehehe
"If I were playing third base and my mother were rounding third with the run that was going to beat us, I'd trip her. Oh, I'd pick her up and brush her off and say, 'Sorry, Mom,' but nobody beats me." ~ Leo Durocher
hur hur hur
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Nov 20, 2009 3:26 PM CST up reply actions
Agreed
Fuld does everything Johnson does defensively and can hit both lefties and righties. Johnson does hit lefties better but the injury risk and tight cap space leave him “without a chair”
"If I were playing third base and my mother were rounding third with the run that was going to beat us, I'd trip her. Oh, I'd pick her up and brush her off and say, 'Sorry, Mom,' but nobody beats me." ~ Leo Durocher
There you go again - thinking you're going to be invited to Fuld's wedding... ;-)

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
He got married in June
in a church. Honestly boys you have such dirty minds. I can’t be the only one here who loves watching Fuld’s defense.
Vin Scully can go crazy for Fuld without being accused of wanting to sleep with him.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Nov 21, 2009 11:03 AM CST up reply actions
who on here has accused you of wanting to sleep with him?
Drew referenced the dining room, not the bedroom. As for my wedding reference, you’re the one who has mentioned coming across their wedding registry online.
Furthermore, if you want to talk about dirty minds, how about the person who said she was willing to sleep with BLou if it meant the Cubs would win a World Series?
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Well at least I was willing to make a HUGE sacrifice
for the Cubs to win a World Series.
Yes I mentioned the wedding registry but that was in the summer. I do happen to think Fuld is an interesting guy off the field but honest I really do love great defense and smart patient players. His Stanford degree wouldn’t be worth much if he was not crashing into walls to catch balls and drawing a lot of walks. Also I like to rub it in over a lot of folks on BCB ( Al cough, cough) who said Fuld would never be an MLB player. It was one ugly season and Fuld and Wells were among the bright spots.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Nov 21, 2009 2:16 PM CST up reply actions
I seem to remember a trade...
that was discussed about frequently here that involved hot prospects…
I believe it involved Hill, Patterson, & Murton for a certain 2B, but because Patterson and Hill were “untouchable” the trade didn’t happen.
How are those “hot prospects” working out these days?
No offense to our farm system but “hot prospects” are just trading chips to get players from teams that are 4A, Royals/Tigers/Rays/Pirates.
That’s not true!!! WHY THE F*CK WOULD YOU SAY THAT YOU AHOLE!! Ok maybe your right but you gotta give a little something here for it to work. I don’t know what I’m going to do this is the worst thing I’ve ever read, this day could not get any worse. Fine, F*ck it, you’re right.
by Ditkavsworld
This seems like a urban legend.
It was reported that Angelos NOT the Cubs vetoed this deal.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Nov 20, 2009 12:26 PM CST up reply actions
2 of those "Hot Prospects" got us Rich Harden
Also, I agree with DS. Unless you can cite your source, that’s not how I recall things going down. As an Orioles fan myself, I was never convinced Roberts was in any danger to get traded – Angelos likes him too much.
Besides, if we’d traded for Roberts, how would we ever have gotten to the playoffs? After all, in that scenario we wouldn’t have needed Derosa, and everyone knows our team would never have gotten anywhere in 07 or 08 without Derosa’s gritty je ne sais quoi.
by Wreckard on Nov 20, 2009 2:28 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Um wrong Patterson re Harden
Harden was traded for Murton, ERIC Patterson, Gallagher and Donaldson. At the time Donaldson was one our highest rated prospects but you don’t hear much of him these days.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Nov 20, 2009 2:35 PM CST up reply actions
No, they were talking about Eric Patterson in both cases.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
+1
Rec’d
"If I were playing third base and my mother were rounding third with the run that was going to beat us, I'd trip her. Oh, I'd pick her up and brush her off and say, 'Sorry, Mom,' but nobody beats me." ~ Leo Durocher
I think the idea goes deeper than that
Are the Cubs a low budget team or a high budget team? Obvious answer, I know, but it determines a long-term strategy with propects. High budget teams can afford to pay developed, proven players and will tend to trade propects for those players. Low budget teams do the opposite. Low budget doesn’t necessarity mean 4A – the Twins follow that model, too.
The thing about proven players is that they are, well. proven. You can use them to WIN NOW.
And this doesn’t mean ignore player development. You have to have prospects to trade them, and some will still end up with the big club (the SS the Yankees brought up in 1996 seems to have worked out for them).
Vitters, Fox, and Jackson for Granderson seems like a win for the Tigers.
Although, he has a very team-friendly contract through 2012 with a club option for 2013, which makes him a pretty dang valuable commodity. If I were Jim, I would start the bidding a little lower (say, Fox, Colvin, and Jackson) and only offer guys like Vitters and Cashner if absolutely necessary.
But as far as perfect fits, this sure seems like one. Granderson in center for the next few years would be a wonderful thing to behold.
Well, sure.
Of course you don’t make your first offer your best offer. But if the players I mentioned had to be the best offer, I’d still do it.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
After reading this:
Against RHP, Granderson hits almost as well as Aramis Ramirez — All-Star level. Against LHP… well, he’s basically Aaron Miles. So you’d probably want to re-sign Reed Johnson to give Granderson a break against LHP. Johnson doesn’t hit righthanders, but against LHP his career line is .313/.378/.463, an OPS of .841, nearly as good as Granderson vs. RHP.
I’m totally sold on the idea. GET IT DONE, JIMBO!!!
Yabbit...
He’s a known quantity who has been trending downward (offensively) for the last 3 years!
I’m not against trading for him, I just don’t want to give up that much from the farm system for a guy who maybe is already going down hill.
If you think you've seen it all...just wait!
by CubFanSince1970 on Nov 20, 2009 12:35 PM CST reply actions
Yabbut...
He’s 28. The prime of his career, and he’s relatively cheap. Next year he’s set to be paid a whopping $5.5 million. I’ll take me some of that in exchange for Tyler Colvin and change.
Proud recipient of a hot dog shot from the Iowa Cubs hot dog gun.
by IowaCubs- on Nov 20, 2009 12:38 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
What's a Yabbit? A Pugs Punny?
Well, I never heard it before, but it sounds uncommon nonsense.
- The Mock Turtle, Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll -
by eths on Nov 20, 2009 1:51 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Hm, well.
His wOBA has been trending slightly downward over the last three years. But it’s still above league average – and wasn’t he injured in 2008? Plus, his numbers may go up playing in the NL.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Nov 20, 2009 2:34 PM CST up reply actions
I enjoy Curtis' analysis on TV...
He seems like someone who has his head on straight. I’d love the Cubs to do whatever they can do within reason to trade for him.
Proud recipient of a hot dog shot from the Iowa Cubs hot dog gun.
Granderson is a good player but...
personally there is only two moves I would like to see made this offseason. Bradley traded(but not given away), and Derosa signed(bust not more than somewhere around 2yrs. @ 8 mil)
I am ok with starting the year with Fuld or Colvin in center, and if they aren’t good enough make a move in June or July. Not to mention Brett Jackson could be ready to look at by then. With Sori in left we need a good defensive center fielder, and all of these guys are that.
Having Derosa does a few things. He is said to be great in the clubhouse. He can play 2nd, 3rd, 1st, left or right field and he really fit in well in Chicago.
The Cubs are starting to improve their farm system, and while I know a guy like Castro is just a prospect he is just 19 with a very high ceiling.
Fuld & Colvin are role players, not starters.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
agreed to some extent....
I guess what I am saying I would rater see the cubs go into the season with some question marks at a position or two than trade what ever chips we have now and not be able to make a move during the season if needed.
I agree
I am NOT okay with starting the season with Fuld or Colvin as our starting CF. Waiting until June or July to make a trade may already be too late, and there’s no guarantee you could make a deal then that would help you, anyway.
Harry Caray: Marshall is going back to LA to get cocaine for his injured foot.
Steve Stone: Harry, that’s Novocaine.
by Julio Zuleta's Voodoo on Nov 20, 2009 1:34 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
About 2 to 3 inches
in favor of Fuld of course.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Nov 20, 2009 10:38 PM CST up reply actions
and I do mean height
before someon with a dirty mind ( and you know who I mean Ballhawk) gets any ideas. Wish I thought of this
BEFORE I posted the above comment.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Nov 20, 2009 10:40 PM CST up reply actions
yeah, that Daver is a real piece of work, isn't he?
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Dang, missed it by that much.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Nov 22, 2009 11:17 AM CST up reply actions
You mean when they stand erectly?
Not true afaik
Sam Fuld, height: 5-10
Ryan Theriot, height: 5-11
Well, I never heard it before, but it sounds uncommon nonsense.
- The Mock Turtle, Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll -
Let's just say I think Fuld is more honest
than Riot. Theriot is NOT 5’11 except in his dreams.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Nov 21, 2009 8:20 AM CST up reply actions
looks like one of those AT&T commercials with the bars...
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
I still chuckle at a post some years ago
on TCR from someone who watched Lee and Todd Walker talking during a game, he said Walker looked like Lee’s in between inning snack.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Nov 21, 2009 7:48 PM CST up reply actions
Haha
Reading your reply to your own comment, posted two minutes later, I can really imagine the frantic typing that occurred when you realized the opening that you had left here…
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is." -- Yogi Berra
Seems doubtful Brett Jackson will be ready mid-season 2010.
Also, Castro was not offered in Al’s trade scenario.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Nov 20, 2009 2:36 PM CST up reply actions
Granderson may be out there NOW
and won’t be in June or July – you’re taking pot luck then.
Sold.
I’d help Fox, Vitters and/or Jackson/Cashner pack.
One of the biggest things overlooked for the Cubs is defense – both Tampa in 2008 and Seattle in 2009 had significant jumps in wins just by improving defense. And I think we’d all agree that a Granderson-Fukudome CF-RF would be a step up defensively for the Cubs in 2010.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
by Trey2317 on Nov 20, 2009 12:42 PM CST reply actions 2 recs
quickest ways to get better
are to improve pitching & defense.
by Cubsfan Waveland on Nov 20, 2009 12:45 PM CST up reply actions
True you would be giving up a lot of prospects
but this could easily become like the Juan Pierre trade. Granderson hasn’t really had outstanding stats that would merit a Vitters, Fox, and Cashner package. Remember that deal?
Mitre, Nolasco, and Pinto for Pierre, and now most of yall regret this trade. This could easily be the same. Granted, Granderson is a better player than Juan Pierre, but the outcome could virtually be the same..
Wrigley Bound in the Summer of 2010
some guy named pie
would make this CF discussion moot
by DartmouthCubsFan on Nov 20, 2009 1:22 PM CST up reply actions
what's so interesting to me is
the obvious comparison in tools and skill set between pie and granderson
granderson is just a “further along” pie in terms of development and so many people here were so quick to cast aside pie and now want granderson so badly
its just a lack of organizational patience that put us in this position and once again an indication of a lack of a plan
one of the reasons i’m so fired up about the grabow re-signing is i feel its a repeat of past mistakes in terms of overvaluing an unstable commodity and paying a premium for it
i want so badly for this to change.
by DartmouthCubsFan on Nov 20, 2009 1:40 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I'm not a Pie fan
Unless he has cut down his swing and improved his command of the strike zone, he’s still the same player he was. And not really major league ready.
sigh...
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/g/grandcu01.shtml
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/p/piefe01.shtml
Curtis Granderson OPS last year: .780
Felix Pie OPS last year: .763
Curtis Granderson OPS+ last year: 100
Felix Pie OPS+ last year: 99
Curtis Granderson BB/PA 10.1%
Felix Pie BB/PA = 3%
Curtis Granderson K/PA 19.9%
Felix Pie K/PA = 20.6%
Curtis Granderson EXBH/PA 8.6%
Felix Pie EXBH/PA = 7.8%
Granderson has better plate patience by a wide margin, but otherwise the two players are EXTREMELY similar and Pie’s 24, Granderson’s 28
by DartmouthCubsFan on Nov 20, 2009 4:07 PM CST up reply actions
sigh...
… is right.
You’re comparing Granderson’s WORST year to a partial year of a guy who hasn’t even established himself as a major league regular yet?
Granted that the Cubs gave up on Pie too early. But let’s get someone back who’s better when we have the chance to.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al Yellon on Nov 20, 2009 4:11 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
i've given the minor league comparisons before as well
they’re very close in terms of development throughout the similar levels, though Granderson was always older through his minor league development
would you like to see those again?
by DartmouthCubsFan on Nov 20, 2009 4:13 PM CST up reply actions
No, thanks.
You spend a lot of time here lamenting stuff that’s never going to change, or the slightly-above-average-dollar signing of a middle reliever.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
if you don't learn from past mistakes
how are you going to improve in the future?
by DartmouthCubsFan on Nov 20, 2009 4:15 PM CST up reply actions
plus the argument above
was suggesting Pie wasn’t major league ready
and he produced practically the same line as Granderson last year
so why would one person suggest Granderson is the answer and Pie is not major league ready when they produced nearly identical lines?
Granted Granderson’s track record indicates he’s a better bet for immediate success, but writing off Pie as not major league ready seems silly when he’s producing the same as the guy you’re ready to mortgage the farm for
that was my “sigh” argument to the poster above
by DartmouthCubsFan on Nov 20, 2009 4:17 PM CST up reply actions
would you rather have
felix pie + his contract and give back the two guys we got for aaron heilman yesterday
or
would you rather have granderson + his contract minus 1/3rd of the top players in our farm system?
by DartmouthCubsFan on Nov 20, 2009 4:14 PM CST up reply actions
Since choice 1 is not possible...
… choice 2 is probably what’s going to happen.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
well...
perhaps when i and many others were lamenting about this the last two years begging the organization not to give up on pie… maybe if more had understood or taken that approach, within the organization, we wouldn’t be in this spot now
that’s my reason for complaining about grabow as well. i’m hoping at some point the fan-base will recognize the weaknesses in our organizational approach and ask for a change
i firmly believe that the pressure put on the organization after the 2003 season is what put us spiraling into this dark hole of long-term contracts by putting pressure on the organization to have to win right now and mortgage the future at all costs
i also believe the pressure the fan base puts on the organization weighs heavily on the players in the postseason and is a significant hurdle to the teams success in the future
perhaps a more reasoned and well thought out approach from the fan-base could have an impact on how the organization approaches baseball decisions.
by DartmouthCubsFan on Nov 20, 2009 4:23 PM CST up reply actions
???
perhaps a more reasoned and well thought out approach from the fan-base could have an impact on how the organization approaches baseball decisions.
If any person in the Cubs organization makes even one single decision based on their perception of the collective fan-base’s “approach,” that person should be fired immediately.
"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things." ~Winston Churchill
you don't think this has happend?
in the 2005-2006 offseason we spent heavily on relief pitching after the fan-base clamored for middle relief
in 2008 the entire offseason was focused on finding a LH bat after the manager and media made a big deal about being two RH
our organizational approach tends to drift towards public opinion. This seems to be evident to me since 2003.
by DartmouthCubsFan on Nov 20, 2009 4:44 PM CST up reply actions
You may be right.
I don’t know if there is empirical evidence to suggest that one follows the other or if they are just coinicident, but my point is that no GM or team president ought to give a moment’s consideration to the fans’ opinion on baseball decisions, no matter how reasoned that fanbase’s opinion may be.
If the choice is:
A) Will this go over with the fans?
or
B) Will this help us win more baseball games?
then those in charge of the actual decisions had better be focused on B every time. Because if the answer to B is “Yes,” then the answer to A will almost surely be the same.
"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things." ~Winston Churchill
Granderson
WIN NOW
Pie is a future “might be” who might well fizzle. Granderson is a know major leaguer.
A lot of people like to point at that trade
but while it wasn’t good, it wasn’t awful.
Mitre has never been any good and now looks like he is nearly out of the majors.
Pinto is a wild situational lefty who had a 1.59 ratio last season. How well would that have gone over with Lou?
Nolasco is the only one that the Cubs may regret. He had a good 2008 but was very up and down last season where while winning 13 also had a 5.06 ERA. I expect Nolasco will end up as middle of the rotation guy but not likely someone that Cub fans will be talking about in the next 10 years as some player that got away.
there were repeats on this board last year when our rotation was in shambles
that we needed Nolasco. In five years, we may very well need Vitters. Ramirez will be around 35ish and still the injury proned self. People will be clamoring for Josh then if we get rid of him
Wrigley Bound in the Summer of 2010
Mitre has a World Series Ring
and the Yankees are expected to re-sign him. Shocking but true.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Nov 22, 2009 4:07 PM CST up reply actions
Not a chance.
Granderson is a far better player than Pierre. Plus, he’s a good clubhouse guy. Pierre let it be known often and loudly that he couldn’t wait to get out of Chicago.
Not a fair comparison at all.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Platoon player
Don’t give up too much for him, but it if you can bring back RJ on the cheap, then go for it.
Scott Bora$ is satan.
by Canadian Cubs Fan on Nov 20, 2009 1:00 PM CST reply actions
Don't do it
It’s probably not the best idea to trade away so much of our future.
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
shouldn't the Cubs should find a home for Bradley...
before getting another outfielder
Um, you seriously may want to reread Al's post again.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Nov 20, 2009 2:37 PM CST up reply actions
If the Granderson deal has to be done now, do it
Improve first. Then deal off the problems.
Fox, Vitters, Jackson
I do that in a second. I have no problem losing any of those guys (well Jackson would be too bad but I’d get over that)
Still Miles away from being Aaron free.
Could it take more?
How reasonable is Granderson’s contract ? – $25.75MM through 2012 including the 2013 buyout.
The Cubs would not be taking on a large contract here. So I think the prospects sent to Detroit could be more/higher caliber.
Really Vitters/Jackson is about as high caliber as it gets for us
Castro and Cashner are a bit above them, but it isn’t like we are offering Hoffpauir/fuld/scales here
Still Miles away from being Aaron free.
This has become a joke...
For two years it was Brian Roberts, then it was Jake Peavy, this year it is Milton Bradley and Curtis Granderson…why? Why does the media and the Cubs put us through this year after year. How many times was the trade for Roberts and Peavy “close?” This year during the meetings in Chicago a few weeks ago one reporter said that the Bradley deal “should happen in 72 hours…” When do these guys get held accountable for their false rumors. I understand a rumor is just that a rumor, but the Sam Smith’s of the world need to be held accountable and they need to become columnists writing a article about their opinion of what they think should happen. Not articles saying “sources close to the cubs say…” Its really Laughable the way our last few off seasons have went.
Hey, Hey! Hey, Hey! Hey, Hey!
Why does the media and the Cubs put us through this year after year.
How are the Cubs responsible for “putting us through this?” Putting us through what exactly? Then trying to better the team? If you’re sick of hearing about it, stop checking MLBTraderumors every 15 mintues.
How many times was the trade for Roberts and Peavy "close?
Who’s to say they weren’t close? By all accounts the Peavy trade was in fact extremely close to being a reality.
This year during the meetings in Chicago a few weeks ago one reporter said that the Bradley deal "should happen in 72 hours…" When do these guys get held accountable for their false rumors.
This is true. If only they were labeling these rumors in a way that we as readers would know they only rumored to be happening, then we wouldn’t have this problem. Fire them all.
I understand a rumor is just that a rumor,
No, you do not.
by Wreckard on Nov 20, 2009 2:33 PM CST up reply actions 7 recs
The Cubs have Andres Blanco.
Basically the same player, cheaper and younger.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
Yeah, but...
…Vizqual has experience, leadership qualities, probably would be a better bat, and an all around more mature player. I think we could use that on this team… plus, I would have liked to hook Omar up with Blanco for a season for Andres to learn from…
Maybe with Omar’s help… Blanco can become a better all-around player.
Just my thoughts…
by TheHawkRules on Nov 20, 2009 2:32 PM CST up reply actions
Mark-o De (la) Rosa?
"If I were playing third base and my mother were rounding third with the run that was going to beat us, I'd trip her. Oh, I'd pick her up and brush her off and say, 'Sorry, Mom,' but nobody beats me." ~ Leo Durocher
Omar Vizquel?
You mean the guy who has put up one OPS north of .700 in the last five years?
You mean the guy who will be 43 in April?
You mean the guy who had as one of his rookie year teammates Jeffrey Leonard, who is older than me, for heavens sakes?
No thanks.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Wait, is he talking for 2010.
He’d have been a good fit for 2008.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
Vizquel would have been a good fit for 1998.
2010, not so much.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Don't have to be a smarty about it...
Dang, that was rude.
Anyway… I didn’t know there was such a bias against people of age as long as they get the intended results. I don’t know why a backup infielder named Omar is such a bad thing.
by TheHawkRules on Nov 20, 2009 2:43 PM CST up reply actions
Because he's old and can't hit any more?
We can do just as well with Andres Blanco.
Vizquel should retire.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
OK
… That is really a silly post. Why should he retire as long as somebody still wants him and there is a role he can STILL fill?
Oh, because Al doesn’t like “older” players?
Whatever… that’s wrong and isn’t worth debating.
by TheHawkRules on Nov 20, 2009 3:11 PM CST up reply actions
...
@OldHossRadbourn I see the White Sox are close to signing O. Vizquel. Damn him. I told him in 1888 that I’d have the longer career, but I was wrong.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Nov 20, 2009 3:20 PM CST up reply actions
Sure, I like older players.
If they can still play. Vizquel can’t.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
You could have stopped at the word roommate...
Roommates were abolished about 3 CBAs ago.
"I've never complained about it. I'm thankful to have a jersey." Mark DeRosa, 22 Aug 2007
Oh, he's mature all right.
And better with the bat…really?
And what makes you think the Cubs would have room for both Vizquel and Blanco on the roster?
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Nov 20, 2009 2:40 PM CST up reply actions
If we were to get rid of Ryan Theri..............
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Nov 20, 2009 2:41 PM CST up reply actions
He's younger...
…and cheaper, but not that much cheaper. Omar made a million last year… he may not make that much this year. I dunno though.
It looks like he is going to sign a one year deal with the White Sox. I just would have liked to seen him for that one year on the Cubs… I think mature experience would be a good thing for this crew.
That’s just my opinion… I’m not saying its right or wrong. Obviously, some people have issues with people of age… lol… weird, and sad…
by TheHawkRules on Nov 20, 2009 2:49 PM CST up reply actions
I'm not sure the Cubs need more 'mature experience'
They’re a veteran-laden club as is. Blanco can already pick it (though probably not at a level near Vizquel at his peak) and hit about as well as Vizquel does. If he were Starlin Castro, and you wanted a mentor for him for a season, then maybe (just like Vizquel did with Elvis Andrus last year). But with Castro likely being a year away, it’s a waste of a roster spot to put an older Andres Blanco on the roster.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
Good thought...
Thanks.
Makes more sense than some of the other posts which just basically attack his age. Those sarcastic posts brought nothing productive to the table…
Ya make some sense Bro.
by TheHawkRules on Nov 20, 2009 3:00 PM CST up reply actions
add in more expensive
for a club with a tight budget, it doesn’t make sense to pay veteran level contracts for unimportant positions on the roster, such as backup IFs, etc
by DartmouthCubsFan on Nov 20, 2009 3:01 PM CST up reply actions
Well...
… If any of the regulars get hurt again… I would rather have had Omar than anything we had…
by TheHawkRules on Nov 20, 2009 3:03 PM CST up reply actions
ok
but think of it this way
if you had strict budget to spend and it was all you had for the rest of the year to spend
would you spend 15-20% of it on food for the next 12 months
or
would you spend 15-20% on insurance for your home in the event something bad happened you’d have the funds to replace it?
you’d spend it on the necessity, not the “in case of emergency”
by DartmouthCubsFan on Nov 20, 2009 3:06 PM CST up reply actions
I understand the money situation...
Especially with MB’s issue…
Omar made 1 million last year. He may sign with the Sox for less than that… I dunno. I don’t know what all Hendry is going to do this off season…
But, I think a 1 year, 1 million dollar contract may not mess too many of his plans up.
Once again, this is my opinion. I am not saying you are wrong…. I don’t think either of us is wrong or right, its just issues of preference.
Thanks.
by TheHawkRules on Nov 20, 2009 3:20 PM CST up reply actions
Would that be some sort of Chad Fox memorial contract?
Omar was great, now he’s old and declining. The Cubs are already getting old and starting to decline. Picking up a 43 year old former all star may be a +1 on the Sullivan scale, but I don’t see how it helps the club.
if this was still new to me, i wouldn't understand
i think the +1 scale was a Rogers thing, not Sullivan
but what’s really sad here is that I took 30 seconds of my life to actually comment on that distinction.
But I’m somewhat comforted – in a “misery loves company” kind of way – by the cumulative time that you all will have wasted in reading my comment. Karma is a strange thing…
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Nov 20, 2009 10:24 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
It's not weird or sad.
And it’s nothing personal against Omar Vizquel – he’s a great player. But there’s a reason you don’t see many 43-year-old position players. He’d probably make a great coach if that makes you feel any better.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Nov 20, 2009 2:55 PM CST up reply actions
*yawn*
Obviously, your not very famaliar with Omar… who is still more than able to be a GOOD back up infielder… espesically for one year and a low dollar contract.
That argument is built on bias, not the facts.
by TheHawkRules on Nov 20, 2009 3:02 PM CST up reply actions
You're falling prey to SNS (Sexy Name Syndrome).
Andres Blanco is already here and just fine.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Nov 20, 2009 3:05 PM CST up reply actions
No, I'm not...
I think he would be a great backup infielder…
and a much better fill in player than what we have.
Especially for only a million… and that is what he made last year. He may make less this year.
That is my opinion… and has nothing to do with a sexy name. (His name may turn you on, but does nothing for me)
by TheHawkRules on Nov 20, 2009 3:13 PM CST up reply actions
Look, his last decent season with a bat was 2006
His problem is not that he is old, it’s that he is done.
Are you Omar's agent?
Or brother? Or maybe Omar himself?
I think most of us ARE familiar with what Omar Vizquel can bring to the table in 2010. Which is to say, not much.
The White Sox are likely signing him because he’s Venezuelan and so is Ozzie, and likely they have a connection.
Incidentally, Ozzie is only three years older than Omar.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Wow...
No offense…
But with the exception of what you said about his OPS, you have brought nothing to the table except prejudice… (Age and Race)
If you don’t want him because you feel his skills have declined… thats fine!!!!!!!!!! But just say that and don’t bring all of your personal bias to the table.
Man… come on Al, your better than that!
by TheHawkRules on Nov 20, 2009 3:16 PM CST up reply actions
Yeah - no offense, Al, but I'm going to accuse you of racial prejudice.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Nov 20, 2009 3:30 PM CST up reply actions
Coming from a guy...
… who accused me of falling for a name he believes to be “sexy”…
ok…lol
by TheHawkRules on Nov 20, 2009 3:31 PM CST up reply actions
mmmm...not quite the same
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Nov 20, 2009 3:35 PM CST up reply actions
No...
… one is dumber than the other. Thanks for correcting me.
Look… It’s no big deal if someone doesn’t want him on the team. But to say you don’t want him because of his age, (yet, can’t/doesn’t show how he wouldn’t be an improvement) and then state that the only reason he has a job is because of his race… Well, everyone can think what they want too.
I never said Omar was the same years ago. All I said was that I think he would be a good backup infielder. And a 1 year deal for a million isn’t, in my opinion, that big of a deal. Everyone has the right to disagree with me… But if you want me to be respectful to you, be respectful back.
by TheHawkRules on Nov 20, 2009 3:42 PM CST up reply actions
I don't think I've been disrespectful...
…but, if you feel I have, I apologize.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Nov 20, 2009 3:45 PM CST up reply actions
Hendy signs guys just because they went to Notre Dame....
let’s call him out for being religiously prejudiced.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Nov 20, 2009 3:49 PM CST up reply actions
Or maybe collegiately prejudiced.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Nov 20, 2009 3:52 PM CST up reply actions
Lou likes guy just because they're left-handed...
is he dexterously prejudiced?
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Nov 20, 2009 3:54 PM CST up reply actions
You could say...
that’s a sinister preference.
http://www.fivetoolfans.com
by mykalmorgan on Nov 22, 2009 9:30 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
As long as it isn't deleterious
Well, I never heard it before, but it sounds uncommon nonsense.
- The Mock Turtle, Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll -
no. he still has some value
WARs (2007-2009): 1.8, -0.4, 1.2
about 1.0 WAR on average even with very limited playing time. A $1M/1 year deal is a pretty good value.
I'd still rather have Andres Blanco fill that role and save the $600,000.
In any case, the whole argument is moot. Vizquel’s going to sign with the White Sox.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
By your measures, yes, he apparently has some worth.
To the 2010 Cubs? Not worth signing.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Prospect rankings
Does anyone have an educated guess as to which Cubs’ prospects figure to rank in the overall top 100 in 2010?
How high might Castro, Cashner, etc. rank overall? Only Vitters ranked last year (#51) and he’s probably dropped out by now:
http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prospects/rankings/top-100-prospects/2009/267702.html
rough guess
Castro – top 25.
Vitters – top 75.
Jay Jackson/Andrew Cashner/Hak-ju Lee/Brett Jackson – 80-120 range.
Chris Carpenter – top 150-200
btw, that really isn't an educated guess, it's more
based off what Jim Callis said in the Cubs chat the other day.
In any case, just for posterity's sake...
…I, too, would sign off on a Vitters, Fox, Jackson deal for Curtis Granderson. Not sure whether I could go as rich as throwing Cashner in. Maybe.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Nov 20, 2009 3:47 PM CST reply actions
We'll let Hendry know you approve
Lol
"If I were playing third base and my mother were rounding third with the run that was going to beat us, I'd trip her. Oh, I'd pick her up and brush her off and say, 'Sorry, Mom,' but nobody beats me." ~ Leo Durocher
Yes, pass that along.
And, while you’re at it, tell him I’ve available as a consultant – gratis.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Nov 20, 2009 3:54 PM CST up reply actions
Ok
He also needs a good place for dinner tonight. Ideas?
"If I were playing third base and my mother were rounding third with the run that was going to beat us, I'd trip her. Oh, I'd pick her up and brush her off and say, 'Sorry, Mom,' but nobody beats me." ~ Leo Durocher
For of our best prospects...
…for a platoon at CF? Sounds like the same solution as we’ve heard this whole decade, except it’s being paid for by talent instead of dollars. Besides, can we even keep Reed Johnson on the team? What’s the back-up to our back-up?
Sam Fuld?
"If I were playing third base and my mother were rounding third with the run that was going to beat us, I'd trip her. Oh, I'd pick her up and brush her off and say, 'Sorry, Mom,' but nobody beats me." ~ Leo Durocher
Touché.
Even so, I’m loathe to trade away that much talent for that bat (because Fuld could provide plus defense of his own). I’m of the opinion that the 2009 Cubs are more than a Granderson away from the playoffs. I don’t think I’m a defeatist, but I could sit through a year or so of waiting for contracts to come off the books, waiting for talent to develop, and then go balls deep the following year. Sometimes you just gotta admit you’re not in the best position to win, pay your dues, and get past it.
this is my position
exactly
I’d prefer for us to plan ahead and save resources for LARGE splashes in FA. Target potential positions of need where players may become available
this means cut the mid level signings, dump money into the draft/international signings and development and let some of these horrid contracts where we’re earning negative value roll off the books
Hopefully by then we’ll have leveraged our financial prowess into a deep and talented farm system that can allow us to fill in spots around the diamond with a few above average players as well as have enough depth to be able to make deals to fill in gaps along with the elite FA targets
This is what the Yankees and Red Sox have done over the last 7-8 years
by DartmouthCubsFan on Nov 20, 2009 4:38 PM CST up reply actions
I think a lot of people...
…take “this is the year” as their Cubs business model, and wonder why their payroll/farm is so damn depleted a year or two later.
i think
its been that way since 2003
pre-2003 there was a laissez-faire approach from the fan-base, but i think getting that close and tasting it sent everyone in an uproar that was only heightened by the White Sox, Red Sox, and Cardinals winning world series shortly thereafter
by DartmouthCubsFan on Nov 20, 2009 4:51 PM CST up reply actions
I can see that.
I just wish other people could, too. Hopefully Hendry and the Ricketts (how’s that for a band name?) will see that, too.
Granderson
Having had Tiger season tickets, I have had the opportunity to see a lot of Curtis Granderson. The amount of ground he can cover is phenomenal. When you see how spacious Comerica Park is, there are not a lot of gap hits, and that’s with Magglio Ordonez in right and a parade of left fielders.
I feel he is a solid four tools player. He just does nbot have the average you would like. He does kind of remind me as another Soriano in terms of plate discipline. However, maybe Jaromillo can work with him on that. Absolutely, a good clubhouse guy. Hometown guy would probably get a longer honeymoon than some others if he gets off to a slow start, but Cubs fans would love his attitude and hustle.
As for whom to include in a trade, IIRC you cannot trade players from the last draft until they have been in the system for a year, so I think that leaves Jackson out.
Mike Illitch is hemorrhaging money. He really loves the Tigers, and would probably trade his Stanley Cups with that other team whom I refuse to mention, for a Tigers championship. The Tigers announced this week that they will be cutting prices on season tickets. On the hockey front, tickets that were unavailable in previous years, can be purchased at the box office for most games. Payoff games, including the cup finals, did not sell out for many games.
I see Carlos Guillen mentioned i some threads. Defensively, he will drive you crazy. He will make the Sportscenter highlight play, and then boot the next two two hoppers hit right to him. Perfect for a DH.
Dave Dombrowski, Tigers GM and President, has probably used up all the goodwill in town that he built up for 2006. Tiger fans are getting restless and the Tigers have some really bad contracts, e.g., $18M for Magglio Ordonez in 2010.
I don’t think we would have to mortgage the farm system for CG. But, it takes two to make a deal, and it will be interesting to see what the Tigers would ask for.
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. -- George Santayana (1863-1952)
by cubfred on Nov 20, 2009 4:14 PM CST reply actions 2 recs
+1 = Gitterdone
I think Detroit needs to get at least one recognizable name in the deal, like one that rhymes with Riot, in order to make this happen. Baker could be what they need when Polanco is priced beyond their means. Tigers might remember the name Hoffpauir, too, after last year’s series; maybe they want him.
Also, this thread is nearing 300 interesting comments. We’re all in general agreement that we gusta Granderson, yet it has only one Rec
Come visit me inside Wrigley along the Addison side mezzanine fence straight up from 1st base.
by section229beer on Nov 20, 2009 4:44 PM CST up reply actions
I'm just sayin...
Come visit me inside Wrigley along the Addison side mezzanine fence straight up from 1st base.
by section229beer on Nov 20, 2009 4:46 PM CST up reply actions
I could see Baker as someone they ponder
which could allow them to dump Inge. I’d be game to trading Baker, even though I like the value he brings, because I think we could find a decent cheap 2nd baseman later in FA if need be.
Or open the vault
and take Polanco, too
Come visit me inside Wrigley along the Addison side mezzanine fence straight up from 1st base.
by section229beer on Nov 20, 2009 5:16 PM CST up reply actions
why would they dump inge?
he’s one of the few players that earned their salary last year. not to mention he’s a fan favorite and has little trade value with so many cheaper options available on the free agent market. baker, fox, hoffpauir, theriot would all be throw ins in prospect-rich package.
baker and inge
a) to be clear, I’m not suggesting Baker would be a key piece to any deal. I think he’d be more than a throw-in (I’d consider a Sam Fuld as a throw-in type to the deal, someone to potentiall stopgap in CF).
b) There are rumors that they are shoping Inge as well.
several comments
nothing really new from anything else I’ve posted on Granderson.
a) Most teams hold onto top chips. There haven’t been many deals recently where top 25 prospects in the upper levels have moved. Short of it is, as solid a talent is, I do not believe the package will need to start with Castro, and if so, I back out. A potential elite shortstop is hard to find, and yes, we are gambling on potential, but if there’s anything you gamble on, it’s on elite shortstops and pitching, which leads to
b) Teams rarely deal multiple top arms anymore. There are few packages with multiple quality arms sent. We are in an era where pitching prospects have been very protected, perhaps overprotected. Part of this was the side effect from the explosion of money the last few years, so the economic downturn might change that in the next few years, but only time will tell. The other part is a simple recognition that pitching is a prime commodity to hold onto. The Scott Hairston trade was unique in the A’s getting 3 arms, but they were getting a damaged Sean Gallagher, a pen arm in Ryan Webb, and a guy who most thought was better off as a pen arm in Craig Italiano. Anyhow, this is working me to
c) Granderson isn’t a perfect fix. For all the talk about prospects not succeeding, two things need to be kept in mind.
i) This current core is potentially at the beginning of the end, with the combination of age and contracts starting to expire (with Lilly/Lee up, although a good year, and I think Lee gets resigned on a 2 year extension).
ii) Prospects have value. An all-in (which, in this case, for me, is giving up 3 of your top 6 guys after Castro, as Al has loosely suggested he’d be open to) is too much for me. Along with the combination of Granderson not being a perfect fix (I’d be hard pressed to say Granderson is the final piece to putting things together), I’d be very worried if we did something that foolish, giving up 3 of our top 6 prospects, and giving up 2 of our top 3 arms). Even if you don’t believe these guys will pan out, you have to maximize your value.
d) What am I open to – I am open to giving them
i) 1 of our top 3 arms – It’s almost a certainty that they’d ask for one of our top 3 arms. I’d rather give up Cashner than Jay Jackson. Yes, Jackson isn’t perfect, but his chances of sticking as a starter are far higher. I’ll take a potential 2/3 starter anyday. And yes, I still don’t buy Cashner as a starter, even though he made great progress in that push this year (for my prospect rankings, Jackson comes in at 3, and Cashner comes in at 4). It’s easy to forget that, if he can’t make it as a starter, Jay Jackson could still be an excellent pen arm with a mid-upper 90’s fastball and a plus slider. Carpenter’s a tougher call for me. The starting arsenal is there, I just wonder about durability. I think, in order of willingness to give up said prospect, I’d rank it Carpenter, Cashner, Jay Jackson.
ii) Another top prospect, but not a 2nd top arm – I’m wary of giving up too many arms, even if there is risk to said arms. I’m open to giving up a Hak-ju Lee, Brett Jackson, or Josh Vitters as another top piece to a deal.
iii) After that, I’d hold the line on the other top guys. I’d ponder giving up a 2nd tier prospect of ours (a guy like Kyler Burke or Ryan Flaherty come to mind). I’d be open to giving them stopgap help (Darwin Barney is liked by many, but is in a system with two potential elite shortstops, Sam Fuld could be a stopgap CF option for them). I’d be open to giving up pen help. I’d be open to giving up end of the rotation starting options like Marshall or Gorzelanny if they are searching for that.
I’m willing to give up a 4 or 5 for 1 package (or a 6 for 2 package with the 2nd being some spare piece in low ball). That said, I’d hold the line on giving up multiple top arms, and I’d hold the line on giving up more than 2 top 7 prospects. I don’t believe Granderson is the “last piece” and we are in an “in-between” phase for the organization. Add in the financial situation, and if we leverage our top assets now, we could be in a huge pickle a couple years from now. If someone told me that Granderson was the “last piece”, then I’d ponder it.
That said, I also believe that the market value of Granderson might not be as high as some folks think. I fully think the suggestions I have above would have us in the final going, but the only question would come down to what they value, what they think fits. We’ve seen teams become more and more protective of young talent. Arguably, Detroit would be in the right to demand multiple top assets, due to Granderson’s value, but you have to have a team willing to give back that much in return, and I’m hard pressed to think a team would significantly top my suggestions above.
I’m not sure Detroit would ponder this solely for the cost savings aspect. I’ve chatted with Tigers fans on this. While I think they have a shot at the playoffs this year, I think, if Dombrowski ponders a deal, it may be because
a) He’s not confident on his team’s title chances for 2010.
and
b) He wants to see if he can get a bushel of prospects to help rebuild faster after 2010, when many contracts end.
by toonsterwu on Nov 20, 2009 4:41 PM CST reply actions 5 recs
The window of opportunity for this batch of Cubs to win is done
Hence the wise long-term view would be to focus on scouting, player selection and development while simultaneously letting some of these wretched contracts unwind.
Curtis Granderson does not put this current Cub team over the top. Not by any stretch. There would still remain a dilemma in the middle infield, great unknown at catcher, the blackhole that is Alfonso Soriano, and a pitching staff that has major question marks in the rotation and in the pen.
"Cubs will win 79 to 83 games." BLou (7/21/09)
Granderson, though
would put us back in contention for a NL playoff spot next year. Gun to my head, no I don’t think Granderson pushes us to the title, but as we see in the playoffs, sometimes a little luck is all you need. I’m open to the idea of making a push because Granderson is good enough to be a part of the current core, and to be a solid asset for the next squad, or at least, a veteran leader (he may have to shift to a corner role within 3-4 years).

As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Nov 20, 2009 5:02 PM CST up reply actions
is this dumb crap really necessary
just don’t respond then. you spent plenty of time above whining about how you wouldn’t respond, and yet … you still are responding in this thread.
one other comment
not sure why jake fox is getting so much attention as an asset to send there. He probably would be on their bench, and they have a similar, arguably better, talent likely to be in AAA in Ryan Strieby.
I think a deal becomes cheaper on the talent side if the Cubs are willing to take on $
Time for Hendry to have a chat with the Ricketts family. Convince them to take on Ordonez for 2010 to hoard some young talent and also maybe make a real run in 2010. Then contracts wil start coming off the for the Cubs and it gets easier to blend the budget with acquiring talent.
huh
i’ve suggested two potential top 100 prospects.
Short of it is, I don’t think you sell the farm to land him. If you do, I think you walk away. But with the way trends are going these days, elite prospects really don’t get dealt anymore. I do not think the Cubs would need to fork over Castro get a deal, and I don’t think it’s necessary.
Look around … when was the last time an elite prospect was dealt?
for comparison's sake
I think the best deal to compare this to might be the Miguel Cabrera deal. Not exactly the best comparison, but it’s the closest. Relatively speaking, Granderson has less value than Cabrera likely did at the time, due to coming off a poor season. Also, add in the economic changes as a factor. Finally, add in the general shift we’ve seen in the past decade in terms of prospect protection, a shift that suggests a new paradigm of sorts that GM’s are coming towards in regards to valuation and trades.
In that deal, they gave up two top prospects, Cameron Maybin and Andrew Miller, along with basically, junk. I don’t think Granderson will generate the same level of value as Cabrera did at the time, but my general point is that, I don’t think we should, or that we need to, give up more than 2 of our top 7 prospects (my order: Castro, Vitters, J. Jackson, Cashner, Lee, Jackson, Carpenter). Furthermore, of those guys, we cover 3 key areas – prized arms, shortstop talent, and CF talent.
I’m fairly confident that a package of 2 of our top 7 prospects, plus others, would have us in the picture. I’m also not willing, personally, to go beyond that. I think that would be a poor decision on the Cubs part, as I don’t see Granderson as the missing link to a title run. A key piece, perhaps, but not the missing piece.
Certainly, all you need is one team to go crazy to change the market, but I’m fairly confident that package would have us in the running. It’s loosely the same idea that other, more knowledgeable folks, have suggested (that is, 2 of our top 7 prospects or so).
try again.
Maybin, was the overall #6 prospect as recently as 2008. Andrew Miller #10 in 2007. There is nothing remotely like that in your proposal.
i directly addressed that in the post
I don’t think Granderson’s value is near Miggy’s at the time, and I think you need to downgrade for the economic changes. Furthermore, you need to add in the gradual shift.
At the end of the day, we are but speculating. My main point, which I’ve said over and over, is that that’s the furthest I would go. I do believe that is a package (2 top 100 prospects and more) that would keep us in the game, but my main point is that I would not go past that and I would not fork over a 3rd top prospect.
even if you say CG
should garner half of the Miggy package, that means at least one top prospect (by top i mean a top 25 overall). there’s only one guy that fits the bill and i haven’t seen a single person here willing to give him up. i’m pretty sure the tigers can get a top 25 guy for him elsewhere (and maybe even dump a bad contract in the process).
only time will tell
the Phillies held firm against dealing top 50 prospects for Halladay. At the time, no one knew Cliff Lee would be as good and they needed a pitcher for their run. Recent history doesnt’ suggest that elite prospects are often moved. I’m not real sold that they will get a top 25 prospect in baseball. Even the one team that most assume might, the Yankees (as Granderson would allow them to let Damon and/or Matsui go), seem to have loosely suggested that they might not move their one elite prospect, Jesus Montero.
Only time will tell. I know I wouldn’t go further than two of our top prospects, though.
they got
deolis guerra, carlos gomez, kevin mulvey and one more that’s slipping my mind. I want to say it was an arm … but that doesn’t sound right. oh wait, humber.
Guerra was viewed as a potential upside arm. He finally showed progress this year but his value has gone down.
do recs matter for posts that are already on the front page?
this is going to stay in the same spot regardless of 0 recs or a 100, right?
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
I'll Rec this, too.
This seems like a pretty realistic approach to what it would take to get Curtis Granderson.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Nov 22, 2009 11:27 AM CST up reply actions
Doubtful to happen
A. Milton Bradley is immovable and I strongly doubt Hendry has the ability to eat $20 million from his bosses
B. Curtis Granderson is going to cost a mint to acquire. So are we willing to see lameduck Jim Hendry trade away the pathetically few precious commodities he has in his farm system for the privilege of acquiring a 29 year old outfielder? I didn’t think so.
C. There are other teams who can offer Detroit a more intriguing package. Take the Atlanta Braves for example. They have the quality prospects and dirt cheap talent that is going to intrigue Detroit.
D. Probability of Granderson to the Cubs happening — less than 10%
"Cubs will win 79 to 83 games." BLou (7/21/09)
c.
that’s really a poor example. Atlanta’s top 2 or 3 guys are probably untouchable (definitely Heyward, probably for Freeman and Teheran. We’ve really only got 1 untouchable in Castro. After the untouchables on both sides, Atlanta’s system is still solid, but it’s solid more in a depth manner than it is solid in a top talent manner. Some of those guys may develop in a year or two, but they aren’t there yet. Short of it is, both systems will rank fairly close, but the Cubs chances of landing Granderson are equal, if not higher, due to fewer guys that are likely untouchable.
In general, there are only 10 or so teams that could probably top us, from a general value perpsective (you never know what each individual team, scout, GM feels). As has been said in many recent chats, the Cubs top tier, and I’ve been saying this for most of the year, is real solid.
D.
Is that a reason or a conclusion?
Come visit me inside Wrigley along the Addison side mezzanine fence straight up from 1st base.
by section229beer on Nov 20, 2009 5:11 PM CST up reply actions
E.
All of the above
Come visit me inside Wrigley along the Addison side mezzanine fence straight up from 1st base.
by section229beer on Nov 20, 2009 5:13 PM CST up reply actions
F.
None of the above
Come visit me inside Wrigley along the Addison side mezzanine fence straight up from 1st base.
by section229beer on Nov 20, 2009 5:13 PM CST up reply actions
G.
Sorry, I’ve taken a LOT of multiple choice tests in the last two weeks.
Come visit me inside Wrigley along the Addison side mezzanine fence straight up from 1st base.
by section229beer on Nov 20, 2009 5:21 PM CST up reply actions
Jim Callis of Baseball America
said the Cubs had the best system to land Granderson.
Is he traded yet?
to be fair
unless there was a separate quote, his comment was that we had the better system in relation to the yankees and angels.
I disagree
Atlanta, to continue with that example, has a deep pitching staff and is legitimately poised to strongly contend in 2010. What they need most of all is another outfielder, and preferably somebody with a lefty stick. Granderson fits to a tee and operates on a contract that is right up the alley of the financially conservative (ie. smart) Braves.
If Detroit ends up trading Granderson (which I still seriously doubt) then they will want high ceiling young talent or prospects. They definitely have enough to swing a deal if they are so inclined. And it doesn’t have to involve Heyward or Hanson either.
"Cubs will win 79 to 83 games." BLou (7/21/09)
so ... we're debating atlanta
look, as noted, I think there’s about 10 teams or so that have a better top tier than us. I’m not questioning whether or not there are teams that can put a better offer than us if they wanted. I’m questioning this idea that Atlanta is better suited to make a trade than we are. Why I think the Cubs are a better fit
a) Better top level of talent after the untouchables. Freddie Freeman is likely untouchable. Jason Heyward is untouchable. Julio Teheran is borderline. After you get past Freeman/Heyward, it’s a heavy group of raw young arms (Julio Teheran, Randall Delgado, JJ Hoover, Zeke Spruill) or some pen types like Craig Kimbrel. There’s very few top positional assets, which leads to
b) The Cubs have shortstop talent that they can fork over, which is a question in the Tigers sytem. The Braves don’t.
c) Better secondary positional assets to deal. The Cubbs top power hitting OF prospect (Burke) is likely available if the Tigers demanded him. Who’s after Heyward? Adam Milligan or swinging Cody Johnson, who might be Ryan Harvey. Cubs have one of the deepest systems in terms of middle infield depth. Darwin Barney is arguably better than their top shortstop talent when you combine Barney’s readiness.
Look, I know you want to tell everyone the Cubs system is bad. That’s simply not the case right now. It’s not elite, but the Cubs have a solid system, and this idea that we can’t compete is flawed. Whether or not we should compete is a fair question. But the Cubs system can compete with most systems, particularly since the teams with the really elite talent likely will protect those guys from any trades. Our fit is as good, if not better, than the Braves, for the Tigers, due to our positonal depth, our top shortstop talent, and our ability to potentially fork over an upper level quality arm.
by toonsterwu on Nov 20, 2009 5:21 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
+1
Man knows his stuff.
Come visit me inside Wrigley along the Addison side mezzanine fence straight up from 1st base.
by section229beer on Nov 20, 2009 6:45 PM CST up reply actions
Too bad he's living a lie. Cubs' farm system ranked 26/30 this year:
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/farm-system-value-rankings-part-3/
i’d say that’s, umm….bad. for the record, atlanta is 3rd of 30.
things change in 8 months
1 Aaron down, 1 to go
by jesus christos on Nov 20, 2009 7:12 PM CST up reply actions
Callis has updated this in the recent Cubs' prospect rankings.
We’re not in the bottom anymore. toonsterwu is telling the truth.
Is he traded yet?
Well do more research.
Saying “Vitters regressed” strikes me as exaggerated given his age and injuries.
Is he traded yet?
if this doesn't read as regression, i guess we're not gonna see eye to eye (fangraphs):
Josh Vitters | 3B | Chicago
Vitters has had troubles adapting to new levels in his brief pro career. After starting out very well in 2009 at low-A (His second attempt at the level), he has struggled mightily upon a promotion to high-A. At the root of the problem is his lack of patience at the plate, which has manifested itself in the form of a dismal 2.4 BB% in 2009.
From Callis
Managers rated him the best hitting and powerprospect in the Midwest League last summer, when he arrived in lowClass A a year behind schedule after developing tendinitis in his lefthand in 2008. He struggled when promoted to high Class A at age 19.
…
he has improved his agility and footwork since signing.
My point is that your research doesn’t have the depth to sustain the claims you are making.
Is he traded yet?
comments would suggest that it's from this year
He was in Peoria this year and reached High Class A daytona this year, hence I would assume that it was something from at least after midseason, if not closer to the end of the year. I’m pretty sure those comments came from BA’s Midwest League Top prospect list, although I could be wrong.
actually
it doesn’t really read as regression. it reads more as lack of progression. Some may say there’ s no difference. Others will argue that lack of progression is regression. That said, what I said below is still what I’d stand by -
a) I’ve never been huge on Vitters. It isn’t the walks … it’s the number of pitches he sees, which is way too low for that type of aggressiveness, but
b) He did have a good, age appropriate year at Peoria. Was it a bit overhyped? I think so … but it was a solid season. I said at midseason that his Low A season was more based upon a superbly hot streak than consistent strong play. That said, it was still solid.
c) He struggled at Daytona, but he was injured.
I don’t love Vitters, but to suggest he’s essentially fallen off hard is a bit flawed.
I'd also suggest that struggling early
may be better for Vitters than if he was able to use this swing early and swing often w/o struggling until the majors.
He’s just turned 20, it’s not like he’s in decline!
Is he traded yet?
except
he really didn’t regress that much. The only that happened this year is that he showed that he wasn’t an elite prospect that can adapt right away. It’s easy to forget that, at midseason, there were some folks championing him as a top 30. Now, I thought that was ridiculous then, and I’ve never been as high on Vitters as other Cubs fans, but it’s not like he’s fallen off the map. He did have injuries in Daytona. He was borderline top 50 last year, and he’ll likely be top 75, with a shot of top 50 this year.
Jim Callis suggested Castro as a top 25 or 30 prospect, as did Keith Law. All three of our top arms showed improvement this year. Hak-ju Lee showed that there was good reason for the hype. Kyler Burke had a monstrous year. Flaherty had an excellent year. Brett JAckson had a good start.
Overall, there was really only a handful of major disappointment this year.
couple other comments
a) no where did i claim where we would rank. In fact, in other posts, what I’ve said is that we might not rank as high as what some Cubs fans believe.
b) what i did say about rankings was that there were about 10 teams with ebtter top tiers. Not many teams have a shot for 6 top 100 candidates. This is based partially off Jim Callis’ chat for BA the other day, where he said we had a top 10-12 top tier and said 6 guys had chances for top 100.
c) Wher ethe org ranks isn’t a big deal to me, but the general way I look at it is top tier, middle, and bottom. I’m fairly certain we aren’t in that bottom tier. I could name about 7 systems right now off the top that I think, no question about it, are worse than the Cubs system
That said, is it possible that, instead of a 14-18 ranking as many Cubs fans are anticipating, that we might have a 20-22 type ranking. Perhaps.
I've been saying that since early this year
but it seems like some people just don’t want to believe it. I’m not saying we’re an elite system, but it’s much improved, and even Callis noted we have a shot for 6 top 100 guys. We’re smack in that middle tier, with an excellent top of the system, an iffy 2nd tier of C+ guys (in terms of depth), and then a whole bunch of C, borderline C+ types.
I also think people have this idea that systems take a long time to change in terms of organizational ranking. Certainly, the difference between an elite system and a bad system is a lot, but as for a middle tier and end of tier system? It isn’t that much. It can be as little as one draft … and the 2008 draft was big for us with the top three arms (Jackson, Cashner, Carpenter). There’s still other arms that could be interesting, like a Justin Bristow, who I had really low expectations for this year and did better than I expected.
what are you talking about?
I’m talking about the Cubs system now … not last year. The system’s vastly improved.
pointing you to
His comment:
I ended up writing about 40 guys, but I have to say that I’m not overly impressed with this system.
My point isn’t to bash the Braves system. It’s right in there in the middle with us. Actually, Heyward may give them a bump ahead, as he’s that good of a prospect, but we’re close.
My point is simply that systems change from a year to year basis, for one reason or another. Failures, success, graduations.
No way
This article just kept getting more and more far-fetched. If the Cubs offered Vitters, Cashner, Fox, and Jackson for Granderson (a platoon player with declining defense and skills, just look at his career numbers for the past few years), they’d be the laughing stocks of baseball.
I mean, I’d like to have Granderson too, but you don’t give up your top draft picks from the past few years, plus a strong pitching prospect, plus Jake Fox (who’s an awesome off the bench player who can play four positions at least average, including as an emergency catcher).
I’m just waiting for some more dumb moves this offseason. I can see Burrell coming or some other guy who makes a bunch of money and who we don’t need (like we didn’t need Bradley). If Hendry actually makes some good moves this offseason I’ll probably ask my wife if I’m dreaming.
"declining defense and skills" ?!
Evidence, please.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Nov 22, 2009 11:24 AM CST up reply actions
no way would i do this......
if your willing to package away players like vitters, jay jackson, fox, and cashner………why not go get something better like a roy halladay type player. Granderson isn’t a bad player, but I don’t value him that high.
Crazy talk
As long as Al’s giving away prospects, I want him as the GM of a Central Division rival. These off-season trade discussions always kill me. On one hand, you’ve got the guys that propose the “take my junk” for a reasonably valuable player. Those never, ever come to fruition.
On the other hand you’ve got the scenario where you grossly overpay for a player by including a bunch of good prospects. In this case, Al is suggesting that.
Look, Granderson is a good player and one that would really help the Cubs in multiple ways. I want him in Chicago probably more than most on here and find his LHP splits much less concerning than many. But the Cubs don’t have to sell the farm to get him. Offering just what Callis suggested…good but not elite prospects would be the way to go and if Detroit doesn’t want to deal…screw them.
Remember, if Detroit is dealing Granderson, they have an agenda too. As such, their price for Granderson is much less than what you’d think no matter what rhetoric Dave Dombrowski is spewing right now. If they are not legitimately interested in dealing him, then the talks are over. If they are interested, there is absolutely no reason to overpay.
Offer three good but not elite prospects….save Vitters, Cashner and Jackson for either another deal or for yourself…and move on.
Who needs a stinkin' tag line? What are they for anyway?
btw, I'm pretty sure Callis suggested
a Vitters/Jackson combo.
No, Callis suggested
Vitters, Jackson and Jake Fox.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
yes i know
krummy had posted
Offering just what Callis suggested…good but not elite prospects would be the way to go and if Detroit doesn’t want to deal…screw them.
I was just pointing out that Calils was suggesting we fork over two of our top prospects.
Frank Robinson
would not have been an improvement over Cardenal in 1972. And the following year Frank was shipped to the AL to be a DH the rest of his career. While Granderson would be a nice addition, Hendry scares me when all sorts of quality prospects are being discussed as being available.
Jim used the backloaded contracts to put the Cubs in a payroll bind for a number of years. Now he’s desperate to redeem himself. Since he can’t overpay with money, I can easily envision overpayment by way of prospects.
If you like Selig's handling of the steroid issue, you'll love his choice for next Cub owner.
I'll disagree.
I think Robinson would have hit better for the Cubs than he ever did in LA, might not have gotten hurt, and thus could have stayed a Cub for 2-3 years. Or they could have traded him to an AL team and recouped the prospects.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
There is no evidence
he would have hit better in Chicago. Defensively he would have been considerably worse than Cardinal. And as for recouping prospects, that’s highly questionable. Frank was a true DH by the time he was 36.
But back to the point, the Cubs salary limitations are significant. Adding Granderson’s commitment only adds to the problem in the future. By trading high prospects we insure an over aged and under performing roster a few years down the road. Who replaces Lilly and Dempster and Zambrano and Ramirez and Lee? I understand the need for providing prospects, but 3 quality players is way overboard for a player that will need a platoon player to fill in for him versus LH pitching.
If you like Selig's handling of the steroid issue, you'll love his choice for next Cub owner.
Al
I think there is a little flaw in your logic—you picked deals in which the prospects didn’t amount to more than the big-name player acquired. Obviously, there are deals where the prospects turn into useful players, and the “big-name” guy doesn’t play well—such as Juan Pierre.
That said, the Cubs do such a horrible job of developing young players and identifying good players in their system that I am never averse to trading our prospects for proven talent. ESPECIALLY in case like this is a player who perfectly fits a need, is a good guy, and most importantly is signed to a below market value contract.
DEJESUS!!!
Useful players in the Pierre deal?
I’d say the Marlins got one — Nolasco. The Pierre deal wasn’t bad because of who was traded, it was bad because the perceived value of Mitre, Nolasco and Pinto in December 2005 was higher than “Juan Pierre”.
Hendry traded those guys at the right time. He just didn’t get value for them.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Josh Vitters isn't going to be the centerpiece of any major deal
Why? Because he is too big a question mark at this stage for any organization to insist upon him in a deal.
No way Detroit trades a Curtis Granderson on a deal centered around Vitters. No way.
"Cubs will win 79 to 83 games." BLou (7/21/09)
Cubs are never going to win a NL Pennant so long as they stick with the same tried and true strategies of failure
I’m a realist. And the realist in me says this current core of players isn’t good enough to vie for the playoffs. Living in denial about core weaknesses will serve to further stall the forward progress of this organization.
Bite the bullet. Let some of these bad contracts unwind and invest in player development. Meanwhile fill in major league roster holes with cheapish filler.
"Cubs will win 79 to 83 games." BLou (7/21/09)
Like a snorkel truck to a garbage can fire,
Clarity is brought to the situation.
Come visit me inside Wrigley along the Addison side mezzanine fence straight up from 1st base.
i would love
to get granderson for this team.i too think reed wont be back as the cubs will go with the cheaper sam fuld. i enjoyed having reed but his playing time really diminshed after getting bradley. as bad as bradley was you had to keep playing him because of his salary.
thats a lot to give up
especially if you say hes going to be used in a platoon. 3 or 4 good prospects for a guy who cant hit left-handed pitching is a lot.
Granderson
I don’t know about the granderson deal it might be too much to give up. He would help us but can’t we find another player that can be as good as him.I know Vitters is good and could help the cubs in the future.
See that's the problem -
there aren’t any players that offer what Granderson offers who are available.
Is he traded yet?
Vitters isn't a centerfielder.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Nov 22, 2009 11:24 AM CST up reply actions
Did you hear about Holliday?
The Blue Jays asked the Cubs for a trade for Roy Holliday. I think the Jays want some Cubs Prospects.I’d do the trade, but I would not give up Starlin Castro and Holliday has a no trade clause. Would he want to go to the Northside?
Granderson vs. Bradley
I was a little skeptical about how much better Granderson would be at the plate over Bradley, so I did a little copying and pasting:
Granderson’s career splits
vs. RHP: .292/.367/.528, .894 OPS
vs. LHP: .210/.270/.344, .614 OPS
Bradley’s career splits
vs. RHP .266/.365/.431, .796 OPS
vs. LHP .306/.387/.497, .884 OPS
Granderson’s 2009 splits
vs. RHP: .275/.358/.539, .897 OPS
vs. LHP: .183/.245/.239, .484 OPS
Bradley’s 2009 splits
vs. RHP .234/.379/.385, .764 OPS
vs. LHP .333/.385/.444, .830 OPS
Granderson’s 2009 total numbers
.249/.327/.453, .780 OPS 30HR 71 RBI in 631 ABs (1 HR per 21 AB; 1 RBI per 8.9 AB)
Bradley’s 2009 total numbers
.257/.378/.397 .775 OPS 12HR 40 RBI in 393 ABs (1 HR per 32 AB; 1 RBI per 9.8 AB)
Overall, there numbers look comparable, even though both performed below career averages. Granderson clearly has the edge in slugging, while Bradley has a higher OBP and, as a switch hitter, doesn’t need to be platooned. That being said, if the goal is to have a left-handed RBI bat to go against RHPs, Granderson is clearly superior. If he and Johnson could hit at career averages in a platoon, that would be awesome.
The worrying thing is that, despite the pop in Granderson’s bat, there has been a downward creep in his OPS after his standout 2007 season: .773 (2006), .913 (2007), .858 (2008), .780 (2009). The man did have 710 PA in 160 games last year (more than Theriot’s Cub-leading 677 PA in 154 games), and his stats hint at a decline linked to fatigue. His OPS, for example, was .849 for the month of May, but his OPS for each subsequent month dropped significantly: .804 in June; .795 in July; .757 in August; finally dropping to .691 in Sept./Oct. I know this isn’t conclusive evidence that fatigue was the problem, but it does seem that a platoon situation might keep him rested enough to maintain a higher level of performance throughout the season.
Platooning Granderson
I actually think you want an OBP source to platoon with Granderson, because Dome’s platoon partner is likely to be a SLG source, either Baker or Fox. So v. RHP, Dome hits 1 or 2 and Granderson 5 or 6 and v. LHP a RJ type hits 1 or 2 and Fox/Baker hits 5 or 6.
Is he traded yet?
So you want someone with high OBP and has good numbers against LHP. Hmm... I wonder who could do that...
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Sam Fuld ?
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Nov 23, 2009 9:04 AM CST up reply actions
I'm assuming
that Theriot is hitting 1 or 2 next season anyway.
Otherwise if you’re referring to Reed Johnson – he could do this just fine if healthy.
That said, I do wonder if Fuld should get the shot and the money be saved.
Is he traded yet?
A couple of observations
Granderson compiled those numbers in a home park bigger than Yellowstone – Bradley was based in a much more hitter-friendly park.
It would make some sense to give Granderson at least 20 games a season off, in part to avoid nastier LH starters.
Just Say No
Granderson whiffs too much. No thanks.
One day, the dream will come true.
Mark Reynolds doesn't whiff too much
and he whiffed about 70 more times than Granderson.
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