Would you blow up the farm system for Halladay?
I don't necessary think this is going to happen. It is very interesting though. Even for a perennial all-star, I'm not sure I would give up Starlin Castro. Just my opinion, agree or disagree?
about 2 years ago
lexmarklover
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Not worth it
He’s only going to with the team for a year, and he would ask for way to much money, that the team does not have already. The team already has decent starting pitching, and its not worth losing are farm system for him.
by cubs1201 on Nov 20, 2009 5:36 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
Funny how...
we suddenly have the prospects to acquire one of the best players in the game, yet we can’t afford it.
Yes,
If the Cubs really want to win it all next year they almost certainly will need an ace pitcher at the caliber level of Halladay. Personally, while I think Z can have flashes of pure dominance, I still don’t put him on the upper tier of pitchers (Doc, Sabathia, Lincecum, Carpenter).
I’ve always thought that if the Cubs want to win it all, they would need make Yankee’esque moves and increase the payroll. And I’m saying this fully aware of the payroll limitations that the Cubs have and the possible ramification of what could happen if the farm system was gutted. But deep down, my gut tells me we need a dominant ace like Halladay to win a championship. And yes I know this is not fantasy baseball.
I’m not sure how other people felt when the Yankees landed Sabathia, but I remember I instantly knew they were going to win it all. I had already crowned them back in August.
I’m aware that once a team gets to the playoffs, then it’s a “crapshoot”, but speaking on a pure emotional level I would say get Halladay and then I would say we could compete in any short series with my full confidence that we were the better team.
Rant over.
THE FONZ HAS ARRIVED!
Sounds like you had the yanks crowned
well before August.
http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/yankees/item_i8bnGJoDmUkyxiXx7Nd1vK
I would blow up the farm for one year of Halliday if we already had a combination of any three of the following in place:
Alex Rodrieguiz, Mark Texeiria, Hideki Matsui, Derek Jeter, Mario Rivera, Johnny Damon, or Joba Chamberlin. I would prematurely crown the cubs the day that deal were made.
Come visit me inside Wrigley along the Addison side mezzanine fence straight up from 1st base.
by section229beer on Nov 20, 2009 7:21 PM CST up reply actions
[edit]
Damn. I posted before I name-checked. 5/7 wrong = Fail.
Come visit me inside Wrigley along the Addison side mezzanine fence straight up from 1st base.
by section229beer on Nov 20, 2009 7:23 PM CST up reply actions
right
what I meant was I had them picked before the season.
What about a combination of Lee, Ramirez, Soriano, Fukudome, Possibly Granderson, Guzman, or Marmol. I think they would win it with those players and Halladay.
THE FONZ HAS ARRIVED!
We’re comparing apples to hall of famers here.
Come visit me inside Wrigley along the Addison side mezzanine fence straight up from 1st base.
by section229beer on Nov 20, 2009 9:12 PM CST up reply actions
Last time I checked
Damon and Chamberlin were not hall worthy, nor do I expect them to be. And obviously the Cubs’ Ramirez and Lee don’t stack up with Rodriguez and Texiera, but they’re close. And the Cubs have shown they’re capable of producing tons of runs in a season (2008).
And essentially, what I think I’m hearing from you is that with the group of players we have now wouldn’t win with Halladay added. So my question to you is, what could the Cubs possibly do this season, in your eyes, to make them WS favorites?
I mean it really doesn’t get any better than adding the best pitcher baseball.
THE FONZ HAS ARRIVED!
We have ?s at
LF, CF, 2B, C, 5th starter, closer. I think Guzman is a mediocre year away from a scrapheap. I’m saying that 10 years from now, fans of other teams won’t remember nearly as many names on the 2009 Cubs as they will Yankees. Yes, 2008 cubs could score runs, but we’re not in Kansas anymore.
Yanks have HOF locks in Jeter, and Rivera, an argument for Posada, and a PED HOFer w/ A-Rod. Matsui is an international superstar. Damon’s been consistently outstanding for years and was a top free agent splash when he landed w/ NYY.
Name a position (one) that the Cubs have an upgrade vs. 2009 Yanks. I’ve given it a couple minutes and have bumpkus.
Picking up Halladay does not give us that preseason “crowned” moment. We have too many offensive lineup holes to throw away multiple prospects for a one year gamble, Doc.
Come visit me inside Wrigley along the Addison side mezzanine fence straight up from 1st base.
by section229beer on Nov 20, 2009 11:36 PM CST up reply actions
Right
I agree, you don’t pull a trade unless you negotiate a contract extension will Halladay.
And as for all the question marks the Cubs have, I think that the division is winnable with the players we have, some bullpen adjustments and the addition of a player like Granderson. We don’t need to be better than the Yankees at every position to win a championship. Infact, I would say we only need to be better than other playoff teams in our 1-3 rotation and our bullpen. Obviously the Cubs have lacked run production these last two years, but I would argue that it becomes alot easier when you have guys pitching on your side who can go 8+ innings and possibly keep it scoreless.
Assuming this is a perfect world and all those things get done, I would give ourselves that preseason crowned moment once we got Halladay. I mean we would have Doc and Z making 2/5 of our starts.
Once in the playoffs I would favor our rotation over any in the game. The Phillies took it to game 6 with the Yankees on the back of Lee. I would love to see the Cubs do it with Halladay and Z.
The closest the Cubs have come to a world series in my life time was when we were doing the same thing with Prior and Wood. I think they need the same formula to win with the players we have and in the window of time that we have. The Cubs are built as a win now team and these next few years might be the last shot for a while.
THE FONZ HAS ARRIVED!
Question on pitching
Do you mean having three top starters with the potential to go 8+ and keep it scoreless?
Outside of fluke performances, how many teams have three starters where you would REALLY fear “hey, that guy could truly shut us down”?
The Cubs certainly don’t… but nobody else in the division does, either. The Cards have two.
In the NL, the Phillies have two though Hamels is certainly more questionable. From the other two playoff teams, the Dodgers have maybe one (Kershaw) and the Rockies have one (Jimenez).
In the playoffs… you need one dominant starter and two good starters. On offense, you need at least one hitter the other team fears surrounded by a deep line-up.
yes that's is what I mean "potential"
and that was under the assumption that Harden is still on the team.
I understand that alot of teams ride one dominant ace in a short series, but I want the Cubs to win now. I could only imagine how overwhelming it would be for ANY team to go up against a line up of Halladay, Zambrano, and Harden in games 1-3.
If the Cubs were truely serious about bringing a championship in the near future, I believe they need to go all in. I would love to be surprised by new ownership and hear an announcement about an immediate increase in payroll.
Ofcourse, this topic is now old and tired. Halladay was a pipe dream and it appears that Harden is gone as well. And all indication show that the Cubs have very limited felexibility in payroll.
I have a strong feeling that I’m seriously going to be dissapointed with our off season moves and based on the rumors of possible moves that are flying around now I’m becoming more convinced that we may have a repeat of 2008 next season……I hope I’m wrong.
THE FONZ HAS ARRIVED!
Damon's got an outside shot at 3,000 hits
Wouldn’t count him out right now and he wouldn’t be the worst player with 3,000 hits if he got to that mark.
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
I agree
The Cubs need a pure #1 starter . IMO Zambrano is not the guy . He is too hot and cold .. When he is on his game he looks great , but you don’t know what you are getting start to start . I thought the same thing too when the Yankees signed CC , then a little while later the Yankees sign Texeria .. What puzzles me is the fact that the Yankees , Boston , Dodgers , Angels are all big market teams .. But so are the Cubs .. And again this year the same teams are grabbing the same headlines . Boston red Sox in the news about being in the hunt for Hallady , Holliday , and Bay .. All I have been hearing about the Cubs … Trade Bradley for a few number of second tier guys .. like Castillo , Burrell etc .. I have never heard of any rumors about a big gun or a big arm or should I say a top tier player . I do understand the payroll issues but the other big market cities are not stopping getting the top free agents money can buy .. I don’t want to trade the farm but lets be proactive in getting a middle of the order power guy , a #1 pitcher , and a leadoff guy who can play second or short
other big market cities are not stopping getting the top free agents money can buy
thats because they have the payroll flexibility
1 Aaron down, 1 to go
by jesus christos on Nov 20, 2009 7:08 PM CST up reply actions
Before complaining about the Cubs not matching other big markets
look at last year’s salary. The Cubs matched those other teams (except for the Yankees). Spending and spending wisely are two different things.
by rlpete on Nov 20, 2009 9:32 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
For us to make any type of deal for Halladay, I'd like it to have a requirement that he re-up with us before the trade is finalized.
Randy Wells. A product of the Roy Halladay School of Pitching, located in Toronto, Canada. Possible relocation.
Yes, I'd agree with this.
Halladay is one of the top pitchers in the game. He will be 33 in May — how many years do you think you’d have to give him to make it worth it?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
8
Come visit me inside Wrigley along the Addison side mezzanine fence straight up from 1st base.
by section229beer on Nov 20, 2009 8:34 PM CST up reply actions
why not the Hossa special
an even dozen years?
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
A 5 year contract would work for me.
Hopefully one of those five, at least, will result in a World Series Championship.
Randy Wells. A product of the Roy Halladay School of Pitching, located in Toronto, Canada. Possible relocation.
a 72 hour period to sign an extension before the trade is done
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
meant as reply to Cub Style
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Yes! You know my name!
lol
Randy Wells. A product of the Roy Halladay School of Pitching, located in Toronto, Canada. Possible relocation.
i don't think you'll need to blow it up
to land Halladay. I’d definitely ponder anything, but we’d need a window with Halladay, which I’m not sure Toronto will give. That said, look at recent pitching trades. I highly doubt you’ll need to put in, say, 3 top prospects to get a deal. I’d expect something similar to the Cliff Lee deal last year would be the top package they could get. Could be wrong. It could come down to whether or not Anthoupoulous is willing to pull the trigger.
I've read elsewhere that Toronto will grant that extension window if needed...
…seeing as how it can only help them get a better package.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
No....
…but I would for King Felix.
"It's hard to win 97 games, it's hard to win the division. Our attitude is if you get in every year, you get in most of the time, sooner or later you are going to knock that door down." -- Jim Hendry
Roy Halladay makes no sense
Bottom line this current crop of Cubs players is no longer collectively good enough to legitimately vie for the playoffs. While Roy Halladay would be a big shot in the arm given his status as one of the three best pitchers in baseball, I’m afraid he still doesn’t get this team over the top.
Starlin Castro and Andrew Cashner would likely be the starting point to discussions with Toronto too. And the two of them would still not be enough to get a deal done.
"Cubs will win 79 to 83 games." BLou (7/21/09)
I disagree
The Cubs are only one season removed from two back-to-back playoff appearances. And the only difference between those teams and last years team is two main cogs: Derosa and Wood.
Are two players really worth that many wins differential? Remember we are the biggest spending team in a relatively small market division. I would argue that if Halladay was a Cub he would put the Cubs above and beyond a favorite to win the division.
Again, I write this based as a fan who wants to see the Cubs win a championship. If new ownership has the finances to do it or not or is something else.
THE FONZ HAS ARRIVED!
I don't buy that it's going to take a top 30 prospect
Philly held firm against giving up a top 50 prospect in Drabek or Brown at midseason. Most indications are that his value has gone down. I don’t think it would take Castro, but even if they demanded it, I’d say no right away.
Well good luck with that...
I don’t think you quite grasp the hugeness and amaziness of Mr. Roy Halladay. Toronto would be fools to trade him for anything less than 24 carat gold prospects. As in somebody in the neighborhood of a Tommy Hanson.
There is a snowball’s chance in hell the Cubs could pull off a deal for Halladay. So therefore I won’t lose sleep contemplating the matter beyond these statements.
"Cubs will win 79 to 83 games." BLou (7/21/09)
How likely do you think it is that the BJs resign Halladay after this year?
Toronto’s gonna get something for him.
It’s debatable whether they get more for him now or nearer the deadline, or whether the Cubs package appreciates or depreciates.
Come visit me inside Wrigley along the Addison side mezzanine fence straight up from 1st base.
by section229beer on Nov 20, 2009 11:41 PM CST up reply actions
hugeness and amaziness, i don't grasp those words
but I do think I have a fairly solid grasp on trade and trade valuation. Outside of the Erik Bedard trade, name me one trade that has netted the huge expectations that people have had for what the demands might take. Even that trade measured similar to how recent trades have been valued – Baltimore took on high ceiling low level talent, whereas, as we’ve seen in recent trades, teams are willing to accept upper level 2nd tier talent to compensate – a measure of “readiness” to balance out any perceived lesser talent.
Look around, teams protect pitching prospects like crazy. Is it a case of overprotection? Potentially, but they are protecting them. No one is going to fork over 6 years of a Tommy Hanson level talent (and Hanson was a TOR pitcher already this year) for a 33 year old Roy Halladay. That’s simply not how it works. There is one caveat, which is that you never know if a team can get crazy and bid against itself.
But considering
a) Recent trading history
b) Recent history of prospect protection
c) Halladay’s age
and factored in with the fact that Halladay will try to leverage for a bigger deal since he only has one year left, and you have
a) A limited market
b) Diminished value, relative to what Halladay might expect
which leads me to
I don’t know what your expecations are, but I don’t think anyone expects Toronto to land the package they might’ve gotten at the trade deadline this year from Boston (an excellent assortment). I think most expectations on what type of package they can get is similar to what teams gave up for Lee and Harden. Look, Toronto can WANT a certain package, but they’ll need to GET that package. I don’t see which team forks over this elite package you are suggesting. Everyone’s talking about Billingsley and Co. for Halladay – I don’t buy it. It minimizes the added value of Halladay for the Dodgers – they need another arm on top of what they have now.
I do think Anthoupoulous will pull the deal on the best possible package, and not try to force it. He saw what happened to Bill Smith with the Johan Santana deal, when Boston and the Yankees arguably offered better deals early on than what they ended up with. He doesn’t have to deal with the lingering cloud of failure of JP Ricciardi’s regime and he’s their young stud GM, so he has some rope (barring some insanely horrible season … say, like a 50-60 win season, which no one is expecting). Indications are that he’s been given the rope to “rebuild”, and hence why he’s open to deals with the Yankees or the Red Sox.
I’m still surprised that fans aren’t cognizant of the changes that have occurred in the marketplace over the past few years. It doesn’t mean that an outlier can’t occur – it of course can. But the best guess here right now is that trends will likely hold. Maybe I’m wrong. Maybe a team will give up an elite prospect or two to land him. I just don’t see it. The factors aren’t there. IF this was Felix Hernandez, fine. He could net multiple elite prospects, easily, without a 2nd blink.
As for the Cubs, my only point would come back to
A) The Cubs could easily be competitive in this … whether or not they could put up the best offer, I don’t know.
B) I don’t really think we’re going after Halladay anyways. It isn’t really an issue of talent. We have the talent to make a competitive offer, whether BLou wants to admit it or not (competitive being the keyword). There really isn’t the financial room to add him and fix other spots on the team, and when the pitching staff is decent right now, you fix your other areas first.
by toonsterwu on Nov 20, 2009 11:54 PM CST up reply actions 4 recs
Awesome. Thank you.....
I hate the ignorance and arrogance of Blue Mike from the early days here. Wish he would go away forever. Guess that’s not happening.
Continue to pwn away toonster, I enjoy your posts.
Come on Lisa, I'm trying to impress people here. You don't win friends with salad. ~ Homer J. Simpson
by TheBeerBaron on Nov 21, 2009 10:35 AM CST up reply actions
Haaaaaaa
Tommy Hanson for Roy Halladay? I’ll take Hanson and his cheap salary over the much older Halladay and his impending free agency. Maybe I don’t grasp the hugeness and amaziness.
The Cubs could get Halladay if they want him. I don’t expect they will.
I'm willing to bet that John Grabow will prove the Cubs biggest offseason manuever
Being serious here. I think the Cubs will bargain hunt to fill in the multitude of holes and go into 2010 banking on 2009 having been a terribly cursed season. Which would be a highly flawed approach to take, but alas Jim Hendry has spent himself into a hole and has the double whammy of a new boss evaluating the organization from top to bottom.
"Cubs will win 79 to 83 games." BLou (7/21/09)
I don't want to agree
But I know it’s probably the truth.
OR:
We wait. The market sucks for free agents. Stack the bench with one and two year incentive-laden deals. We will be able to sign plenty of quality players come February.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
Not worth it --- look at 2009 Cubs
Up until last year I’ve always believed that pitching will lead you to a division title over hitting. 2009 Cubs proved me wrong. I really believe there are four elements that will lead us to October:
1) Excellent season by Derrek Lee
2) Healthy and excellent season by Aramis Ramirez
3) Career season from Soriano
4) Above average/borderline dominating pitching.
I really don’t think Halladay will add much to us unless we offense to back him up. Look at the NL Cy Young’s numbers to back up my point. But the good thing is, I think our offense will rebound nicely this year.
From the Field of Dreams movie....
“Don’t sell this farm Ray”. A 33 year old Halladay is not worth giving up multiple high end prospects for if the parent club is not in a position to contend for a World Series championship. The Phillies were in a much better position when they traded for Cliff Lee. They had all the pieces together, and just needed the extra piece. The Cubs are nowhere near being in that position yet.
You make the trade
That being said no Castro in the deal. I would however offer Cashner and Vitters as the two top chips, then go from there. Blue Jays want to get this done. This all is contigent on Halladay signing a multi year deal, 5 year max.
If Cubs want to be serious go get Halladay. He is to me the bes in the game, considering pitching in the AL East.
I agree.
Give them whoever they want as long as it doesn’t include Castro.
Only do it though if a 72 hour negotiating window is allowed for an extension.
Come on Lisa, I'm trying to impress people here. You don't win friends with salad. ~ Homer J. Simpson
by TheBeerBaron on Nov 21, 2009 10:37 AM CST up reply actions
Don't get picky, boys.
Randy Wells. A product of the Roy Halladay School of Pitching, located in Toronto, Canada. Possible relocation.
I'm all over
The no Castro, extension aspect, but I bet Casto is exactly who they’d want.
"I'd rather hit home runs you don't have to run as hard." -- Dave Kingman
by BucknerKongCardenal on Nov 21, 2009 4:19 PM CST up reply actions
i cant wait
to see if this castro kid turns out to be as good as everybody says.
if he flops
watch how fast the “we could have traded him fo (fill in the blank)” comes up annual as it has for others
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
and if halladay gets injured or something and doesnt live up to the hype
people will complain the cubs have no prospects
1 Aaron down, 1 to go
by jesus christos on Nov 21, 2009 3:17 PM CST up reply actions
the double edged sword of reality rears its ugly head once more
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
trade for Halladay or not
I will continue to complain about a lack of prospects until one turns into an all star — non pitching category.
Deal Vitters, Wells and
Another pitching prospect. Throw in Shark and Miles to save some money…
SORIANO! YESSSSSSSS! JIMBO!!!
by CubFaninCA on Nov 21, 2009 3:16 PM CST via mobile reply actions
Not saying he would...
But who is to say Shark wouldn’t waive it? Doubtful he’d go to PIT, KC, etc., but what if the Cubs said “we’ve got a deal with the Mets/Dodgers/Phillies/Rangers (i.e., a good/decent team with at least a chance to contend, if not more) and they want you in their rotation.”
I’m not saying this is imminent at all, but while we can all bemoan Hendry giving out NTCs like candy at Halloween, the NTC by itself doesn’t mean a player can’t be traded - only that he has to agree to be traded.
That would be a tempting trade
Much as everyone loves Castro, he will only be in AA next year. We don’t know for sure if he will really make it into the majors or if he does, how good he will be. Sure, Halladay could get hurt, but last year he threw 4 shutouts and 9 complete games against AL lineups. In the NL, he would be a beast and a bullpen saver.
Based on this year the Cubs need to score more runs, but adding a pitcher like Halladay instantly matches the team up better to take on the Phillies.
think is
do you want to f up the next 5-10 years for only 1 guaranteed year of halladay? i dont
1 Aaron down, 1 to go
by jesus christos on Nov 21, 2009 6:54 PM CST up reply actions
Oh signing Halladay to an extension prior to the trade would be a must
He would probably veto the trade without it – he has a no-trade clause.
But my point is that no one really knows whether Castro becomes a productive big league player. He’s a prospect, not Honus Wagner. They all look like gods in A-ball. If trading one hot prospect blows up a team’s next 5-10 years, that team didn’t have much happening. And I believe there will be another unsigned amateur draft in 2010, and every player in it is “can’t miss.”
I didn't answer your question directly, but I will now
Damn straight I’d give up 5-10 years of who knows what prospects for an honest shot at getting into the World Series next year, or any one year. I’ve rooted for the Cubs for a long time. I’ve never seen them in the World Series and I am far from being a young man. Whatever boundless promise Starlin Castro offers, he won’t be any use getting into the 2010 World Series. Halladay can be – if having him there rouses Z or Dempster or Lilly to operating at a higher level, you’ve got 2 lights-out starters in the post season. That’s all it takes – look at Arizona in 2001 or the Yankees this year.
If they make it to the World Series, I won’t care if the Cubs suck for 5 years – I’ve put up with that a lot of times but without the World Series part. If they WIN, they are free to suck for a generation – they’ve don that, too, but without the winning the World Series part.
Patience is over-rated. WIN NOW, because in the words of that keen philosoher Jim Morrison, “The future’s uncertain and the end is always near.”
as badass as halladay is
i dont think he will carry the organization on his back to the promised land
afterall, hes righthanded…
1 Aaron down, 1 to go
by jesus christos on Nov 21, 2009 9:08 PM CST up reply actions
No one ever asked him to switch throwing arms
If they had, I am sure that he could throw a double-header shutout, 9 innings right-handed and 9 innings left handed.
;-)
ted lilly can do that
with 2 right hands
1 Aaron down, 1 to go
by jesus christos on Nov 21, 2009 9:35 PM CST up reply actions
Jeff Baker and Koyie Hill!
Randy Wells. A product of the Roy Halladay School of Pitching, located in Toronto, Canada. Possible relocation.
They say you can't have enough pitching
I agree with ClarkFan; All of the core of the Cubs Rami , Sori , Lee etc are getting older , the Cubs window of oppurtunity is closing fast .. Imo , just a few trades and free agent away .. I too am tired of waiting . Trade for Halliday , premier #1 starter , extension yes , starting rotation is set , very good rotation in fact and Holliday may push the other starters to excel . Next trade for Granderson , he is a still young player who could be around awhile . Excellent defensive centerfielder , speed , power , has hit for good average , except last year .. He will rebound though to bring average up plus don’t forget the Cubs hired the best batting coach .. and YES he is affordable ..Next the Cubs need to fill a big void at second base .Cubs have a few options here .. Point is the Cubs are close to winning with the players they have now .
No
Absolutely and positively not. I want to win as much as the next guy, but we’ve got our future in the wings.
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
I do see your point.
Jim Hendry isn’t Billy Beane. He could not parlay these guys into a prime haul of prospects if it is deemed a non-contender for the World Series, eventually.
Randy Wells. A product of the Roy Halladay School of Pitching, located in Toronto, Canada. Possible relocation.
Prospect
Last year on this site a lot of people were saying Josh Vitters should be untouchable , now the tide has turned .. These guys are unproven .. i would take on a proven #1 starter , one of the top five pitchers in the game now ..
I really don't have a clue what Hendry/Ricketts have in store for 2010...
I think they have to consider the ‘all-in’ play embodied by Granderson/Halliday. Is it likely? I don’t know, but I believe these are moves that are keeping a lot of people up at night…
If you're not all in, you won't win
That’s how the Yankees, Phillies and Red Sox are playing. If the Cubs don’t go after it, they are just saying, “Beat us, please.”
Clarkfan
You are so right .. go BIG or stay home .. Cubs are in a big market .. act like one
Isn't a top 5 payroll "acting like it"?
We need to spend smarter instead of spending like the early 00’s Yankees.
That isn’t to say I’m opposed to trading for Doc. I’m only opposed to the idea that if the Cubs don’t trade for Halladay (who they can’t afford, without subsequent payroll moves) or Granderson (do it) that they aren’t “in it to win it”.
i take the more sure thing over the unproven
just my opinion
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
by Cubbie-Tim on Nov 22, 2009 2:55 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
I agree with Tim
Sure would like to see a Halliday trade .. And Granderson ,, A few holes left to be filled .. But can you imagine that pitching rotation ? Just adding Halliday you could add in about 9 to 10 more wins next season .. Halliday , Zambrano , Dempster , Lilly … and IMO just being around a proven winner I think the other pitchers would push themselves a little harder not to be out done , they are competitors after all .. Now on Granderson , covers a lot of ground in centerfield , can help out Sorri in leftcenter , speed , can add some stolen bases to start rallies and get into scoring position , hit 30 homeruns last year and you could add a few more homeruns at home at Wrigley field . Still young only 29 years old . I say trade for them both ..Halliday and Granderson … Not only decribing Granderson on the field what I read about him he is a first class act off the field , a real role model
by CUBFANINAZ on Nov 22, 2009 3:54 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
with the cubs payroll
they would only be able to add 1
1 Aaron down, 1 to go
by jesus christos on Nov 22, 2009 4:24 PM CST up reply actions
depending on what is moved.
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Go big or fold....
If they don’t make a serious run in the next couple of seasons, they will be caught in a rebuilding phase.
if we win a World Series the payroll wouldn't matter
they would more than makeup Halladay’s salary with merchandise
he does a lot of promoting further education
in low income areas of Detroit, etc.
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
So, I'm starting to take the possibility of Halladay more seriously.
Check this update, which does say
a deal is unlikely.
But to have to say that means the rumor has some legs, I think, and that Jim is trying to find a way to make it work. The speculation here even goes so far as to suggest that the Cubs might trade Derrek Lee to clear salary to make it work. If the Cubs shipped Lee, an Overbay-Bradley swap might make some sense.
Anyway, the question I think after reading Rosenthal is not so much whether we want to blow up the farm – but rather how far are you willing to go to dump salary to make getting Halladay possible. Would you even trade Aramis to make it happen?
Is he traded yet?
I would not want them to dump Lee
Getting Halladay is about going all in for 2010, with some shot at 2011 as an alternative. Dump Lee and you’re not all in and seriously risk end up wasting what Halladay could give the team.
Current salaries start coming off in 2011 and 2012. Economize then if a 2010 push fails.
now I know you know that DLee has a NTC and has not shown any inclination to waive it at all...
…so can you describe a scenario where DLee would be willing to waive it?
Quite simply, the dude likes it here. A lot. And I don’t get the idea that he’s all about money so ‘bribing’ him to waive the NTC probably isn’t going to work.
Maybe – and it’s a very thin maybe – there’s a situation where Hendry grants a window to the other team to try to sign Lee to an extension. I can understand the long-term security of that, but he’d be able to do that after next year anyway so why not just stay here where he likes it for at least one more year?
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
well
I think he would ponder waiving it if he went to the right team, particularly one on the west coast.
That said, don’t see a fit.
Right - it's hard to see why Derrek would want to be traded.
But a scenario where Derrek is traded is the one I see the easiest match for the Cubs with the Jays because it allows us to swap Overbay and Bradley.
I think you just have to ask Derrek if he wants to play for Joe Torre in LA, and if not…
Is he traded yet?
tbh
there’s really only one easy move to clear salary, and that is dealing Ted Lilly. Moving Aramis, and then dealing prospects for Roy while leaving the lineup empty doesn’t make much sense. Same, albeit to a lesser extent, goes for Lee.
Lilly, on the other hand, you could likely find a team willing to pay the entire contract remaining and perhaps pick up a decent return at the same time. And you’d have Halladay to step into his place … if you wanted to pursue this line.
How do you trade Lilly this off-season
while he’s injured and has a limited no-trade?
Is he traded yet?
just to be clear
I’m not saying I would. That said, provided the medical reports are clean, if you wanted to shop him around, I wouldn’t be surprised if some team decided to roll the dice. You could make a case that Lilly would be 2nd to Lackey in the FA market. Add in that there’s only one year left, and I think there might be a team that might roll the dice. The return wouldn’t be as high as it could be (not that a pitcher with one year remaining would net a high return, just relatively) but I’m not so sure that a close team wouldn’t roll the dice on eating the money if they were asked. Not all the teams would do it, but I think you could probably find a team (Boston, the Yankees, or the Mets come to mind) that might ponder eating the money.
Wondering
If the Cubs trade in a package deal to Blue Jays . Some prospects and Bradley for Halliday and Overbay and trade Overbay to a third team .. Just a thought . Now the Cubs have Halliday and got rid of the the problem child .. Any thoughts on this trade ?
toronto has said they dont want bradley
1 Aaron down, 1 to go
by jesus christos on Nov 23, 2009 7:03 PM CST up reply actions
Yeah, Bradley probably has to go to a team with a different set of problems.
Toronto would only take him if the Cubs take Wells’s $$$$$$$$. And that would be a bad idea.
btw, if we want to talk about arms to go after at some point
I’d go after Josh Johnson, or at least, see what it might take. Sounds like Florida won’t resign him. Hard to imagine that they can come up with the dough that he could command on the market.
That said, I doubt they move him this offseason, barring a “stupid” deal. If they are out of it by midseason, though, that’s something I’d ponder (and I think they’d ponder it at that point) and it’d make me want to keep some resources in reserve (assuming a solid year and he hasn’t gotten hurt).
I scoffed at "Florida" and "out of it by midseason"
It seems probable every year, yet some how they… won’t…….fade
and they…
have…
two…
AAAArrrrgh…
Come visit me inside Wrigley along the Addison side mezzanine fence straight up from 1st base.
by section229beer on Nov 23, 2009 2:33 AM CST up reply actions
i actually think they'll probably hang around
in the race and maybe hold josh off until the end of the year … just speaking hypothetically …
seems like marlins blogs are all pushing for a jj deal now while his value is highest. That’s the guy I’d “blow up” the farm for. Funny, reading through some of the Marlins blogs, and either their fans are off, or I’m way off, but their ideas don’t seem like “blow up the farm” type ideas. Granted, not like fans are an accurate gauge on GM decisions, but if the price is what some Marlins fans are suggesting, I’d definitely hope the Cubs would get in on it.
Still, at the end of the day, I’m guessing they hold onto JJ and play till midseason to see where they stand.
maybe we can resign choi and trade him back
1 Aaron down, 1 to go
by jesus christos on Nov 23, 2009 3:57 PM CST up reply actions
Need Both
i would consider this off season a big success if the Cubs trade for these two players. But I agree with Chanman . If the Cubs could only get one player , IMO an everyday player is more important .
Granderson to win the division, Halladay to win in the post-season
Day in, day out, the position player has more value. Once a team reaches the post-season, the key becomes having two lights-out starters. For example, if the Phillies would have had the 2008 version of Cole Hamels, they beat the Yankees, because Sabathis was the only pitcher that quality that the Yankees had.
I think the proper thing to ask is
would anyone here sell the farm for a world series since that is the goal of such a move.
I would, if for no other reason, i have family members not too long for this world due to age, and would love to see them rewarded for their loyalty to the Cubs just so i can see their smiles and tears of joy. Even if it meant we didnt get back to the playoffs for 10, 20, hell 25 years, etc.
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
The problem with that is...
… there’s no single move that would guarantee a World Series win.
Is Roy Halladay a #1 pitcher? Definitely. But there is still no guarantee he’d be the ONE move that would be worth decimating the farm system.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I know that Al
dumb I may be, stupid I am not
:-)
any move is a risk, and not making a move is just as much a risk if not more of one sometimes.
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
You are right to a point
But Halliday would be a big piece of the complete picture .. There is no single piece to guarantee a World Series Win .. It’s a combination of pieces , and Halliday would be one of them . I look at it this way … Halliday could stop major loss skids , project 2 wins in 3 pitching outings .. Should pitch in 34 games , win approx 22 games , good inninings eater . I think Halliday would push the other pitchers to achieve higher goals . The players are after all , competitive … Sure would have a powerful pitching rotation if all healthy .. That is another move that Hendry could not make .. Health and injuries . Luck ia another part of winning the World Series .. And the way the ball bounces .. But as I said before the Cubs are in a big market , just gets me angry that all the top tier agents are being discussed by the same big market teams . Angels , Dodgers , Yankees, Red Sox , … I know the Cubs have three IMO bad contracts rifgt now , Fuku , Sori , and Bradley But I blame Hendry for most of that . An unproven in MLB a Japanese player , Sori , heard he was on steroids when he hit 40 homeruns that year the Cubs signed him , and lastly Bradley . Everyone knows he has mental issues … But I guess we will just sit by on the bench for the next 4 years untill the bad contracts go away
I will lower win projections
Your right Al .. won 22 games once , also won 21 games and a 20 game win season . But I do like Halliday’s complete games stats , Halliday’s average is about 9 complete games a year . last year 9 complete games and 239 innings pitched .. He would sure help out the bullpen for rest .. So that’ s another intangable he brings to the table ..Also Halladay’s a #1 starter , he might just push Zambrano to be a better pitcher since Zambrano has something to prove being knocked down to #2 in the roation .And since he took a spot in the rotation the Cubs have a #5 starter to use for trade bait
Hmmm.
I see only one other 20 win season in Halladay’s career.
I’m not trying to cut him down. Obviously, he’s a stud, a #1 starter, saves bullpens, for sure. But the question here was “would you blow up the farm system for him”.
I wouldn’t.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
But under most scenarios, Halladay's 34 starts, with typical form, should translate into 22 wins for the Cubs
Halladay just probably won’t win all 22 of them. But his combination of innings pitched plus ERA should leave a team positioned to win it fair share of his no-decision games. Toronto just hasn’t been a good team for most of his career.
To be fair
shouldn’t you look at offensive and bullpen performance instead of wins? Wins are not a very reliable measure of pitching performance.
I still don’t know what I’d give up for Halladay, but as you’ve noted, there’s no doubt he’s a #1. And that would allow the Cubs other SPs to slide to their more “natural” spots (2 Z, 3 Demp, 4 Ted, 5 Wells - while acknowledging that the first three of those are negotiable).
You have to admit
Would be a really good starting rotation
Halliday
Zambrano
Dempster
Lilly
Wells
I ran into Dan Plesac
at the bar last night, cool guy, and I asked him this same question. He said yes, do it. lol
He didn't make any annoying train noises, did he?
"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things." ~Winston Churchill
Vote for no
Starting pitching was our strength last year. We aren’t starving for starters. He would probably be very good, but its just not worth it.
IMO YES
IMO starting ptching didn’t impress me last year . # 1 starter Zambrano 9 wins 7 losses . Lilly I think won 12 games and Dempster 11 wins .. How about double that figure of the Cubs #1 starter 9 wins to Halliday’s 18 wins .. Big difference IMO ..
its a well known fact that wins are the greatest ways to rate a pitcher
those damn BBWAA voters got the cy young awards all wrong!
1 Aaron down, 1 to go
by jesus christos on Nov 30, 2009 11:01 PM CST up reply actions
The farm system's fairly solid right now
not elite, but fairly solid.
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