Milton Bradley Named NL "LVP" By Joe Posnanski
by Al Yellon on Nov 20, 2009 8:27 PM CST
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PrintJoe Posnanski, who I respect a lot -- and I know a lot of others here do as well -- yesterday named Vernon Wells and Milton Bradley as his choices for league Least Valuable Players.
My favorite part of the article is here:
Anyway, put it all together, and including those all-important intangibles, the 2009 LVP is Bradley. He was lousy on defense (minus-12 Dewan in right; minus-4.7 UZR) and not much on offense (99 OPS+ and missed 38 games with injuries). Plus, he was his usual pleasant self... leaving Cubs GM Jim Hendry publicly babbling about how the team doesn't HAVE to trade Bradley, they might WANT to keep Bradley, hey some of the best trades are the ones you DON'T make --- while privately Hendry's working the phones like Judy the Time Life Operator to get rid of this guy.*
*For a while, the hot talk was Bradley for Wells, which would have been the first trade of LVPs in baseball history. Now, that's a fascinating trade. On the one hand, the Cubs would be getting an enormously expensive player who just had a dismal season. On the other hand, the Blue Jays would be getting a less-expensive player coming off a dismal season who also has a knack for making people despise him. Break it down for us, Mel Kiper.
Oh, and:
A scout once told me that Bradley is the only high school player he ever scouted who hit a home run and did not have a single teammate come out to congratulate him.
I think the second Jim Hendry gets another GM to say "yes", he'll be signing the papers before the other guy can change his mind. And it will happen.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
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Time for the Bradley Backers..
to come out of the woodworks to claim that Posnanski is hack writer and an idiot.
That’s not true!!! WHY THE F*CK WOULD YOU SAY THAT YOU AHOLE!! Ok maybe your right but you gotta give a little something here for it to work. I don’t know what I’m going to do this is the worst thing I’ve ever read, this day could not get any worse. Fine, F*ck it, you’re right.
by Ditkavsworld
Posnanski is hack writer and an idiot.
Not really. Actually I don’t know much about him at all but I disagree with his column based on its contents. As players aren’t rewarded in MVP voting for being signed to cheap contracts, I think it’s wrong for Posnanski to penalize players for their GMs’ mistakes in an LVP column. Leave that stuff for “worst signings”, “worst trades”, “worst contracts”, “worst team SNAFUs” columns. In the AL Wells has the worst contract but Betancourt has earned the LVP.
I think there’s a case for Bradley being LVP even if his numbers weren’t LVP-worthy; he really did alienate people, he really was a distraction. But I think he’s at least partially being blamed for the mistakes of others. Hendry signed him to a 3-year deal and then publicly kicked him off the team before the first year was up. If it weren’t for those things he wouldn’t have nearly such a hard task ahead of him in getting rid of Bradley. Bradley deserves a big share of the blame for how things went down between him, his teammates, his coaches, and the media. But when Posnanski talks about Hendry “publicly babbling about how the team doesn’t HAVE to trade Bradley”… the blame for that lies on Hendry. LVP shouldn’t be about your rep, how much your teammates liked you in HS, or what your GM did, it’s about what you did during the season.
There is legitimately a “Bradley for LVP” case based on what he did in 2009 in Chicago. Had Posnanski made it, I’d respect his opinion. As he didn’t I think his column is badly flawed. Really, his Wells argument is worse — it’s based on very little that Wells did, and almost entirely on the GM that signed him.
by aldimond on Nov 20, 2009 9:14 PM CST up reply actions 6 recs
+1
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
I think you answered your own comment:
Actually I don’t know much about him at all
I think there’s a case for Bradley being LVP
he’s at least partially being blamed for the mistakes of others
Bradley deserves a big share of the blame for how things went down between him, his teammates, his coaches, and the media.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
He's not saying that.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Nov 20, 2009 10:44 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
The title of the article?
My Least Valuable Players
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
So he thinks...
he was the Least Valuable Player. If MVP is the best player…
But whatever. I’m done with the topic. If it make people happy to hate MB, then so be it.
Oh com'on.
It’s Posnanski. One of our brethren. At least we can agree upon the Morris twins dominating the Big 12 and leading us to our 7th Big 12 championship. Do you have tix to the season this year? I can’t wait. I have tix but haven’t been yet to a game.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
The Morris twins...
did not impress me at all last year. They’ve got the talent, but they have failed to show any maturity. The team will go as far as Aldrich and Collins will take them, with Henry providing the spark.
Think how good they are gonna be by the time this season is over.
And next year. Monsters.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
MVP isn't the best player
It’s the most valuable. There have been plenty of players that had better seasons than the MVP, but didn’t win the award because they weren’t on winning teams, so their VALUE wasn’t as large as it could have been.
I think you’re being intentionally obtuse, and you actually understand the difference, but perhaps I’m wrong
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Nov 21, 2009 8:14 AM CST up reply actions
Not obtuse...
I just think it’s hyperbole to state MB as the LVP. Was he even the LVP on the Cubs? If we’re talking about what we expected from certain players, I’d rank Soto and Soriano ahead (or below). Maybe it’s just semantics here, but I’m still less than impressed that Bradley has become the scapegoat. I don’t think that’s the case, for the most part, here on BCB. Many discussions have singled out Soto, Soriano, Ramirez’s injury, and JH for a dismal 2009.
Following these guidelines
Wouldn’t Aaron Miles be the Cubs LVP?
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is." -- Yogi Berra
i have said that a few times
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Well let's see how he justifies Wells over Betancourt
Sure, you might argue that the LVP should be a pure, “Worst player” award, but I don’t think so. The Royals could release Betancourt tomorrow or during spring training or mid-season or whenever and it would not kill them financially. They won’t release him because they think he’s good. But they could. The Blue Jays, meanwhile, are BURIED under mounds and mounds of Wellsian Debt.
Well now let’s make a couple changes to this:
Sure, you might argue that the LVP should be a pure, “Worst player” award, but I don’t think so. The Cubs could release Miles tomorrow or during spring training or mid-season or whenever and it would not kill them financially. They won’t release him because they think he’s good. But they could. The Cubs, meanwhile, are BURIED under mounds and mounds of Bradleyian Debt.
So as you can see LVP is more than just numbers from on the field.
That’s not true!!! WHY THE F*CK WOULD YOU SAY THAT YOU AHOLE!! Ok maybe your right but you gotta give a little something here for it to work. I don’t know what I’m going to do this is the worst thing I’ve ever read, this day could not get any worse. Fine, F*ck it, you’re right.
by Ditkavsworld
i think the cubs are buried under more mounds of sorianoian debt
than bradleyian debt
1 Aaron down, 1 to go
by jesus christos on Nov 21, 2009 9:36 PM CST up reply actions
That I can agree to
That’s not true!!! WHY THE F*CK WOULD YOU SAY THAT YOU AHOLE!! Ok maybe your right but you gotta give a little something here for it to work. I don’t know what I’m going to do this is the worst thing I’ve ever read, this day could not get any worse. Fine, F*ck it, you’re right.
by Ditkavsworld
I don't think MVP/LVP are pure best/worst player awards, or all about numbers...
But I still think Posnanski is wrong in both leagues, and I think he used the wrong arguments both times. Players should not be rewarded or punished for things completely not of their doing. I can buy the idea that a player’s actions are magnified playing for a contending team. But bringing in their contracts is too much. What was Wells supposed to do, not sign his ridiculous contract? The contract situation is the GM’s fault, not Wells’. Furthermore, if these awards are analogous to the MVP awards, I don’t think there’s any precedent in MVP voting for a player’s contract to matter one way or the other.
If it was all numbers then there’s no plausible Bradley case. That’s not how it is. In an LVP award there’s plenty of room to argue that Bradley screwed up badly with fans, media, coaches, and teammates, and hurt his team a lot by doing so. I still don’t think Bradley is the least valuable player in the NL, but it’s a subjective position that is at least within reason based on that. Posnanski spent much of his time talking about things other than what Bradley did in 2009 — about how his HS teammates didn’t like him, and about how hard Jim Hendry’s offseason is going to be (boo hoo hoo). That’s more of a Jim Hendry LVGM case. He should make the Bradley LVP case based on the evidence that Bradley hurt the 2009 Cubs.
contracts should be a part of deciding
a worst/best GM not player
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Miles was bad...
but overall Bradley, Soriano, or Gregg, based upon how much money they made, were the least valuable players for the Cubs. Jake Fox was more valuable than all of them combined, so that earned him his ticket out the door in a trade this offseason. How does playing hard and having a positive attitude on the field get you into Piniella’s doghouse?
eliminate the contract
and go with performance, or lack thereof. MB was not LVP on the Cubs alone.
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
yeah, its more of a trifecta of low value
1 Aaron down, 1 to go
by jesus christos on Nov 22, 2009 4:52 PM CST up reply actions
if the award
was least valuable player based on contract size, that would be a different story, and one I coujld see MB winning or being top 5 at least
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
He made a "Judy the Time Life Operator" joke
I’m surprised he didn’t end that by saying, “Where’s the beef Bradley????” or ask if Vernon Wells has fallen and can’t get up.
So Posnanski is old and needs new material.
A scout once told me that Bradley is the only high school player he ever scouted who hit a home run and did not have a single teammate come out to congratulate him.
even if this isnt true, i still find it pretty funny
1 Aaron down, 1 to go
It is funny.
And I have no trouble believing it.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I don't find it very believable
With the egos that we have seen in MLB in our lifetimes. Do you really believe that Barry Bonds never had a high school game where his teammates did not come out to congratulate him when he hit a home run? Just to throw Barry a bone, I’ll say the same thing about Jeff Kent. But I don’t think that it would be hard to come up with more names for this list.
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is." -- Yogi Berra
In fact...
… if you read “Game of Shadows”, you’d know that Bonds’ Arizona State teammates once voted him off the team.
Dunno about him in HS. But if a scout told Posnanski that, I believe him.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Will Clark...
…had the same issue with his Mississippi State teamates.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
Sorta flies in the face of Al's theory that the Cubs are working to prop up Milton's value (snicker)
As if 29 other ballclubs are deaf, dumb and blind to how toxic Milton is and could actually be duped by Hendry into a deal that benefits the Cubs.
"Cubs will win 79 to 83 games." BLou (7/21/09)
Barry Bonds produced too...
and yet nobody has offered him a contract.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Nov 20, 2009 10:45 PM CST up reply actions
So are we're debating age or performance?
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Nov 21, 2009 12:19 AM CST up reply actions
I agree
Barry’s ego would not let him come back for a bargain year. The Giants (okay, bidding against themselves) paid him a fortune his final year, and finally decided that he was not worth the money plus the aggravation at his age.
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is." -- Yogi Berra
The article actually says exactly that.
Apparently, you didn’t read it.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I don't like Bradley one bit
But LVP? No writer needs to add salt to wound when they probably can’t hit a single for sh*t.
*By the way, I didn’t read the article or any excerpts. I’m not a fan of these types of pieces that just bury players. So if I’m out of line about how I feel about this, that’s why.
so, no writer can gain insight into the sport, unless they can play it better than the people they're covering?
I always love this argument
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Nov 21, 2009 8:15 AM CST up reply actions
this article is another proof positive
that anything on the internet will get hits and be read, and sadly others will actually share the garbage.
MB was not great, but hell he was not the LVP, saying he was LVP is giving such great players as AARON FKIN MILES too much credit for starters.
Maybe he should write for the oinion???
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Aaron Miles was supposed to suck.
Which he did.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
was he more valuable than MB?
not in my opinion, which this artcle is, one persons opinion
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
he was also paid a great deal more, and was expected to contribute more
some of you guys are being obtuse on purpose just to argue
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Nov 21, 2009 8:17 AM CST up reply actions
you are incorrect
I am just stating that there were other players less valuable to the Cubs alone, not to mention the NL over all. A lot of the LVP seems to hinge on his contract, which is not a reason to vote someone LVP or MVP or Cy Young, etc.
The contract amount should make the GM the WGM or BGM (worst or best GM for the season) and not be a reason to award or penalize the player. It is not the players fault he was offered a specific amount, that lies on the GM.
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Joe Posnanski is the best baseball writer around.
And he’s right.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
i think he bombed this article
and my comments here are nothing more than my opniion on this one article
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
by Cubbie-Tim on Nov 21, 2009 12:44 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
And Aaron Miles
gives thanks that someone noticed all the intangibles he was oozing onto the field.
Is he traded yet?
Aaron Miles was not a middle of the order hitter who was coming off a huge season
and was given a huge contract.
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Nov 21, 2009 8:17 AM CST up reply actions
Aaron Miles was less valuable to the Cubs than MB
so he is more a valid LVP than MB.
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Bradley was paid 5 million last year
Which is actually only twice as much as Miles.
by vivaelpujols on Nov 21, 2009 3:25 PM CST up reply actions
$7M if you count his bonus.
Pretty sure he had a $4M signing bonus that was split up – half in ’09 and half in ’10, I think.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Boy did I call it or what....
Bradley backers will attack anyone for besmirching the savior Milton.
That’s not true!!! WHY THE F*CK WOULD YOU SAY THAT YOU AHOLE!! Ok maybe your right but you gotta give a little something here for it to work. I don’t know what I’m going to do this is the worst thing I’ve ever read, this day could not get any worse. Fine, F*ck it, you’re right.
by Ditkavsworld
i am not a MB backer, but being realistic, thats all.
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Good lord you're shrill
You can’t even see the word Bradley without putting on the spurned lover act. You’re creating a narrative here that doesn’t actually exist.
He's not even LVP on the Cubs
That dubious honor goes to Soriano. I caught the Cubs bug in 1984, go to about 20 games a year, and showed up to Wrigley on my wedding day (when they clinched in 2007), in other words, I consider myself a fan.
I’ve never watched a player have worse fundamentals than Soriano.
- He misses routine fly balls.
- Treats the ivy like it’s electrified
- Never hits a cut-off man allowing runners to advance to second
- I was at games this past year where the whole crowd was yelling at him to run instead of jogging to balls in the corner. Honestly, I think guys on my softball team could play a better LF than Alphonso.
- The Cubs should change his number to 0-2 to honor how he starts most at bats.
- Apparently has never seen a scouting report on himself (slider low and away).
- Insisted for 2.5 years that he was most comfortable in the lead-off spot.
- And from my friends who see him out at night, wouldn’t be considered a loyal husband.
Maybe his nice smile and sunny disposition keeps him in the media’s good graces, but he’s easily the LVP on the Cubs to me.
Always loyal to Leon
by 239 Brigade on Nov 21, 2009 10:07 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
and for those who want to use contract as part of why MB is LVP
look at Soriano’s contract in comparision……..
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
I agree with everything you said
But I still think Soto was the LVP of the team. With Soriano, you knew to an extent that he was going to do all of those things. None of us expected that he would tank this badly but everyone thought Soto was going to have another great year like his rookie season, and build on that success. Instead we rely on a guy who will probably not do better than a back up catcher in the bigs (albeit he’s a good back up) and he out-hits Soto in almost every category? That’s sad
"If I were playing third base and my mother were rounding third with the run that was going to beat us, I'd trip her. Oh, I'd pick her up and brush her off and say, 'Sorry, Mom,' but nobody beats me." ~ Leo Durocher
Hello, I am fact-check bot.
Fact-check bot does not believe that Soto had a good year in 2009.
But it is obligated to point out that Koyie Hill outhit Geo Soto in one major category: batting average; one minor category: triples; and one diagnostic category: BABIP.
I agree that MB was least valuable.
I’ve never seen anyone have a more negative impact on the rest of the team. Sure, Soriano, Miles and others had pretty bad years, but they in no way poisoned the clubhouse to the level he did.
"Fasten those seatbelts"-Pat Hughes
Exactly.
Here’s the problem. No matter what you think about Bradley’s value as a baseball player — and clearly, he has some — his other actions not only made him divisive to the team, but look how he has divided Cubs fans against each other.
For that reason alone, the team will be better off when he is gone.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Agreed that he's divided Cubs fans but how does that affect the team?
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Note I said he was also divisive to the team....
… as we have heard from various public comments.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
remember that according to the stat gods
clubhouse atmosphere doesnt make a difference worth trying to weigh. therefore that should not have been part of the deciding factor, nor should his contract.
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Let's not start this again.
I know how you feel.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
not wanting to rehash
but yes it was said in my post about intangibles, but again i am not rehashing that
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
I think we need to definitely not rehash....
… when we say we’re “not rehashing”. Otherwise this could get quite ugly.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
The only thing I say is that if you want to consider chemistry
You have to make a judgement of how much a certain player adds or subtracts from that.
So in the case of Bradley, his intangibles have to outweigh his statistical value above the replacement, right? If that’s the case, then the front office has to put a numerical value on those intangibles, whether it’s a guess or not, so that they can make that judgment.
by vivaelpujols on Nov 21, 2009 3:54 PM CST up reply actions
Now, on this you and I agree 100%.
I think management has already decided that Bradley’s intangibles are something they don’t want on the team, whether they have put any specific numerical value on them or not.
Make sense?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
What makes this really interesting...
…is the Cubs seem to already have placed a numerical value on the cost of keeping Bradley around, that being the amount of $ they’re willing to eat to move him.
Obviously they’re keeping that number close to the vest, but there have already been several reports indicating the Cubs are balking at the amount other teams are asking them to eat in trade discussions.
I’m getting this image of Smilin’ Jim sitting down with the prospective buyers…
Smilin’ Jim: Now what do I have to do to hook you up with an All-Star on-base machine today? Tell you what, I’m not supposed to do this but I’ll give you the good neighbor discount. There, now how does this look to you? (writes number down on piece of paper)
Prospective Buyers: Well, we were looking to only spend this much (writes down lower number).
SJ: Hmm… well, I’m gonna have to check with my boss on that. Hang on a sec… (goes back to the office)
PB1: Gee, I don’t know, dear. Are we doing the right thing? What will the fans think?
PB2: Hush, honey, here he comes…
SJ: Well, you’re in luck – my boss is in a good mood today. I told him what nice people you are and he’s willing to bend a little on the price. How about this (shows them new number below crossed out one).
PB1: But.. but.. but that’s still way above what we can afford to spend. Boy, I don’t know…
PB2: C’mon honey, let’s go (gets up to leave)
SJ: Wait, wait… maybe we can do something on the trade-in number. What year did you say that was again?
To be continued…
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Cash with clunkers and not cash for clunkers?
Well, I never heard it before, but it sounds uncommon nonsense.
- The Mock Turtle, Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll -
How appropriate...
And which player are we compaing to a used 1983 AMC Pacer again?
That’s not true!!! WHY THE F*CK WOULD YOU SAY THAT YOU AHOLE!! Ok maybe your right but you gotta give a little something here for it to work. I don’t know what I’m going to do this is the worst thing I’ve ever read, this day could not get any worse. Fine, F*ck it, you’re right.
by Ditkavsworld
A close as I can find in 1 minute search
That’s not true!!! WHY THE F*CK WOULD YOU SAY THAT YOU AHOLE!! Ok maybe your right but you gotta give a little something here for it to work. I don’t know what I’m going to do this is the worst thing I’ve ever read, this day could not get any worse. Fine, F*ck it, you’re right.
by Ditkavsworld
Maybe this guy?
Well, I never heard it before, but it sounds uncommon nonsense.
- The Mock Turtle, Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll -
Can he hit a curve ball?
That’s not true!!! WHY THE F*CK WOULD YOU SAY THAT YOU AHOLE!! Ok maybe your right but you gotta give a little something here for it to work. I don’t know what I’m going to do this is the worst thing I’ve ever read, this day could not get any worse. Fine, F*ck it, you’re right.
by Ditkavsworld
I'll say this Tim.
In a sport like baseball, where the team rarely has to work together, professionals who are paid a minimum of 400 K should be able to rise above any thing a player does which isn’t criminal. And if it’s criminal, call the cops.
But we all work in our professional environs with poor workers, general jerks, and the like – and we learn to rise above it. Why a ballplayer getting paid millions to play a game wouldn’t be embarassed to suggest his game is brought down by clubhouse atmosphere is beyond me.
In other words, I’m not saying it doesn’t have an impact. I’m saying it shouldn’t.
Is he traded yet?
by DGU on Nov 21, 2009 6:55 PM CST up reply actions 8 recs
I have never wanted to REC something this badly
I pressed the button 10 times as hard as usual.
Yes, yes, yes.
I am a manager, and I have counseled many people that it is important that they work with so-and-so, and while I understand that such-and-such about him is annoying, they need to ignore that and understand what he brings to the team. In almost all cases, I tell them my personal coping strategy for dealing with so-and-so, and co-miserate. I can’t afford to treat everyone like porcelain figurines, and I am talking about much smaller salaries than MLB.
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is." -- Yogi Berra
And of course then you just let the person that is annoying everyone continue doing what he was doing....
because to just stop the guy from doing what he does that annoys everyone, well that won’t work. We all must conform to this one guy.
This is part of your counseling techinque I think you are missing. Yes you have to work with people you don’t like and these people do dumb, stupid thing. You need to be above that, but the next words you have is with the person who is doing the dumb, stupid thing. You explain to them that what they are doing is wrong and if they continue there will actions taken.
Oh wait, we are just suppose to ignore him because he know everything about TPS reports.
That’s not true!!! WHY THE F*CK WOULD YOU SAY THAT YOU AHOLE!! Ok maybe your right but you gotta give a little something here for it to work. I don’t know what I’m going to do this is the worst thing I’ve ever read, this day could not get any worse. Fine, F*ck it, you’re right.
by Ditkavsworld
Do you work with 3-dimensional people?
You manage to paint things pretty black and white. In your world, the person who people have to adjust to is just doing a dumb, stupid thing. In the real world, the thing that they do may be the result of having a personality that gives them a lot of drive and energy (good for the company), but also makes them tend to run over people (bad for the company, because people take offense and spend time fuming). In the real world, there is plenty of gray area, and my job is to figure out what is best for the company.
It is not a stretch, or – for god’s sake – a metaphor, to extend this to the Bradley case. If he costs the company a lot to get rid of, what are the costs of living with him instead? Can the other players, who are well-compensated, do what is best for the company by working with him, even though he is difficult? That is what DGU was suggesting, and as in many of his arguments, he makes a damn good point.
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is." -- Yogi Berra
Well glad to see your workers have you as an advocate
Yes I do, and I too am a manager of people. I just don’t see why the idiot gets a free ride just because he knows how to do something. If he is a jerk and make rude comments and ticks off everyone around him, I don’t care if he is the only person that maintain our computer systems, he has play by the same rules as everyone else.
I guess you just have the Jimmy Johnson manner of managing. Hey it’s ok if Michael doesn’t come to work and when he does he doesn’t do the routine stuff because he can catch the ball on Sundays.
That’s not true!!! WHY THE F*CK WOULD YOU SAY THAT YOU AHOLE!! Ok maybe your right but you gotta give a little something here for it to work. I don’t know what I’m going to do this is the worst thing I’ve ever read, this day could not get any worse. Fine, F*ck it, you’re right.
by Ditkavsworld
Sure, but if one guy is bringing EVERYONE down...
… why not remove that one guy?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I was wondering the same thing
“Well you see John here can file paperwork better than anyone else, so he can insult everyone about their weight and hair style. The other 30 employees I have just have to learn to suck it up, since John does the best job filling paperwork.”
And what does that say to the other employees that if they aren’t important because employee X can do anything he wants, and everyone else just needs to ignore what he does “because what he brings to the team”. Well what do I as an employee bring to the team, must not be much or something that isn’t important because I have to work in a hostile work enviroment.
That’s not true!!! WHY THE F*CK WOULD YOU SAY THAT YOU AHOLE!! Ok maybe your right but you gotta give a little something here for it to work. I don’t know what I’m going to do this is the worst thing I’ve ever read, this day could not get any worse. Fine, F*ck it, you’re right.
by Ditkavsworld
by gaclaudy on Nov 22, 2009 9:45 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
unfortunately the MB situation cannot be distilled...
…so neatly because of his absurd contract. if firing the paper filer meant the company had to eat 17% of the company’s budget, then your decision enters the world of cost-benefit analysis and tough, real-world choices.
Correct, and...
… I believe that choice has already been made.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
nicely put
"Fasten those seatbelts"-Pat Hughes
by katie casey on Nov 22, 2009 11:10 AM CST up reply actions
Your arguments are still black and white
Al – “if one guy is bringing everyone down”
Gaclaudy – “so he can insult everyone about their weight and hair style” and “John does the best job filling paperwork”.
Nice straw man, but look at what I described. I said that the guy “tends to run over people”. This doesn’t mean that he is throwing insults, it means that he tends to not listen to other people on his team, which is frustrating, but you would be laughed out of a courtroom if you suggested that this created a “hostile work environment”. Also, a skill set of “best job filling paperwork” does not exactly sound hard to replace to me. It turns out that $21 million dollars is hard to replace, even for the Ricketts.
I am not sure what transgressions you imagine Milton will exact in the locker room if we do not pay him $21 million to go away. If it is insulting everyone about their weight and hair style, I say, bring it on, and let’s trust the team to wear their Big Boy Pants to work every day.
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is." -- Yogi Berra
Alright...
So you have a top widget salesman, that doesn’t listen to fellow employees or even supervisor. He does things his own way and won’t take advice from no one. Just because he sells the most widget means that he gets his own rules? So where is the line drawn? When he stops listening to you?
That’s not true!!! WHY THE F*CK WOULD YOU SAY THAT YOU AHOLE!! Ok maybe your right but you gotta give a little something here for it to work. I don’t know what I’m going to do this is the worst thing I’ve ever read, this day could not get any worse. Fine, F*ck it, you’re right.
by Ditkavsworld
Now you are getting there
It depends on how many widgets he sells and what they sell for, but this is the way things work for top salesmen in this country we love.
I agree with Wreckard, however, that I might have defended my own case a little longer than warranted and strayed from the matter at hand – how much is it worth to you to lose Milton Bradley? And have the other players no stake in this, are they just fainting violets who need to be protected?
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is." -- Yogi Berra
Top widget salesman with poor leadership....
IMHO
That’s not true!!! WHY THE F*CK WOULD YOU SAY THAT YOU AHOLE!! Ok maybe your right but you gotta give a little something here for it to work. I don’t know what I’m going to do this is the worst thing I’ve ever read, this day could not get any worse. Fine, F*ck it, you’re right.
by Ditkavsworld
Leadership (IMHO)
Is figuring out how to get the best possible outcome for the whole group, sometimes in spite of themselves.
Managing any one individual vs. any other member of your team is more like making a marriage work. Any individual is a mass of quirks and tics that can drive any other individual crazy for reasons that are out of your control.
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is." -- Yogi Berra
This is pretty silly.
This isn’t an office in a state with at-will employment laws, with a strawman TPS report expert insulting his coworkers. This is a team sport being played by highly specialized labor with expensive guaranteed contracts.
Not only does that affect the personnel decision with the troubled player, it also affects the point of view of his coworkers, who know exactly why the Cubs can’t simply get rid of them just to make them all a little bit happier.
Back to the chemistry has no meaning in this game.
Ask the Yankees if chemistry has no input into how they won this year? Sure they had the best talent, but that didn’t help them the last 5 years did it.
That’s not true!!! WHY THE F*CK WOULD YOU SAY THAT YOU AHOLE!! Ok maybe your right but you gotta give a little something here for it to work. I don’t know what I’m going to do this is the worst thing I’ve ever read, this day could not get any worse. Fine, F*ck it, you’re right.
by Ditkavsworld
Where did I say that?
I am pointing out that the labor situation in baseball is so completely different from any kind of labor situation we’re used to that it’s nearly impossible for us to relate to it.
At the very least it makes silly office metaphors about mean report experts a poor fit.
How about this
We will agree to disagree over this subject.
That’s not true!!! WHY THE F*CK WOULD YOU SAY THAT YOU AHOLE!! Ok maybe your right but you gotta give a little something here for it to work. I don’t know what I’m going to do this is the worst thing I’ve ever read, this day could not get any worse. Fine, F*ck it, you’re right.
by Ditkavsworld
the closest would be a Teamsters job
due to seniority, inability to just fire an employee, etc and that is still a ways off from being the same. I agree 100% Wreckard
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Hendry appears to have the leadership skills of Old Smykowski...
Hendry in a meeting with the Ricketts, fearing for his job: “I have people skills; I am good at dealing with people.”
There are very few jobs out there where someone can't be replaced
Baseball player is not in that catagory
"If I were playing third base and my mother were rounding third with the run that was going to beat us, I'd trip her. Oh, I'd pick her up and brush her off and say, 'Sorry, Mom,' but nobody beats me." ~ Leo Durocher
*Category
"If I were playing third base and my mother were rounding third with the run that was going to beat us, I'd trip her. Oh, I'd pick her up and brush her off and say, 'Sorry, Mom,' but nobody beats me." ~ Leo Durocher
When it costs you $20M to remove that guy
…it should make you seriously, seriously consider the actual value of removing him.
by Wreckard on Nov 22, 2009 2:03 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
To heck with the $100 million that is invested in the rest of the team.
If you actual star (D-Lee or A-Ram) are unhappy because of the locker room or the negative attention that is brought to the team because of your $9M (’10) player and they start demanding trade, umm How does that work then?
Oh I forgot that Bradley is the reason the team performed so well in ’09, right? Different set of rules for the ALL-STAR.
That’s not true!!! WHY THE F*CK WOULD YOU SAY THAT YOU AHOLE!! Ok maybe your right but you gotta give a little something here for it to work. I don’t know what I’m going to do this is the worst thing I’ve ever read, this day could not get any worse. Fine, F*ck it, you’re right.
by Ditkavsworld
See this is how this is going
Here is what I’m typing:
Baseball is a complicated labor situation, and the situation with Bradley is also complicated. Given the money involved, someone with the insight and know-how so needs to do a cost-benefit analysis and make sure getting rid of him is the right thing to do.
Here is what you are apparently reading:
Bradley Bradley Bradley Bradley Bradley Bradley Bradley Bradley Bradley Bradley Bradley Bradley Bradley Bradley Bradley Bradley Bradley Bradley Bradley Bradley Bradley Bradley Bradley Bradley Bradley Bradley Bradley Bradley Bradley
by Wreckard on Nov 22, 2009 4:23 PM CST up reply actions 4 recs
Now tell me what I'm reading why don't ya
Here’s what you are seeing:
Me: It is important that all employees to be treated equally.
You: I hate Bradley, I am stupid, I make no complete sentence.
You were the one that brought him into the conversation. If you look we were talking about managment styles and you brought up: “When it costs you $20M to remove that guy”. Wanna tell me which $20M guy you were talking about?
That’s not true!!! WHY THE F*CK WOULD YOU SAY THAT YOU AHOLE!! Ok maybe your right but you gotta give a little something here for it to work. I don’t know what I’m going to do this is the worst thing I’ve ever read, this day could not get any worse. Fine, F*ck it, you’re right.
by Ditkavsworld
I brought him into the conversation...?
The entire diary is about Bradley. I’m not sure where you’re getting that.
My point is that you’re kind of obsessed with Bradley in a really weird way. Any time someone says something that contradicts you, you paint them as a Bradley apologist / worshiper.
You: I hate Bradley, I am stupid, I make no complete sentence.
You’re also obsessed with the notion that me using words to express thoughts is somehow an effort to insult your intelligence. Trust me when I say, if I wanted to insult your intelligence I wouldn’t be subtle about it.
It is important that all employees to be treated equally.
Again, this just shows how divorced any experience we have with work environments is from the reality of the locker room. Do you really think that baseball players really believe in workplace egalitarianism? Do you really think that Jason LaRue really expects to be treated the same as Albert Pujols?
HUH?
You are talking out both sides of your mouth here. First you say that I’m obessed with Bradley by making everything about him and then you state that this whole thread is about Bradley so of course you mentioned Bradley.
As far as "you’re kind of obsessed with Bradley in a really weird way. " The same could be said about you. Anytime someone posts an opinion or idea about cutting Bradley, you proceed to post how doing will only hurt the team. No matter what the idea is, it always turns into that Bradley must be kept or the team would be injuried. I don’t get the loyality that you show to a baseball player who has stated
that there was too much “negativity” surrounding the Cubs and that “you understand why they haven’t won in 100 years here.”and when he was pushed on the matter,
Asked whether he was talking about the fans, the media or even the Cubs organization, he replied: “It’s everything. It’s everybody.”
That’s not true!!! WHY THE F*CK WOULD YOU SAY THAT YOU AHOLE!! Ok maybe your right but you gotta give a little something here for it to work. I don’t know what I’m going to do this is the worst thing I’ve ever read, this day could not get any worse. Fine, F*ck it, you’re right.
by Ditkavsworld
How dare I defend him against the constant negativity around here
….after all, he said that Cubs fans were too negative!
The funny thing is, I’m not really even defending him. Please show me a recent example of me excusing his behavior, of approving of his personal issues, of wholeheartedly recommending that he stay. Honestly, please show me where I do that.
Is it possible he’s a negative influence in the clubhouse? Sure, it’s possible. Is he a distraction? I’ll concede that. Is it worth $21M to get rid of that problem? I have no idea – that’s a question of cost versus benefit that none of us can answer.
All I’m doing is trying to get people to look at the situation here objectively, something you’ve shown a complete inability to do. My “Bradley Bradley Bradley” quote about you wasn’t to say that you kept bringing him up, but that when you read something about him you can’t get past the fact that it’s about him – your personal dislike of the man exceeds your ability to look at the situation with unbiased eyes.
by Wreckard on Nov 23, 2009 4:59 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Here is the crux of this argument.
Is it possible he’s a negative influence in the clubhouse? Sure, it’s possible. Is he a distraction? I’ll concede that. Is it worth $21M to get rid of that problem? I have no idea – that’s a question of cost versus benefit that none of us can answer.
I think the Cubs have already made that determination — it is my opinion they made it when Jim Hendry sent him home for the last two weeks of the season with pay.
I doubt it will cost them the entire $21 million — there has to be somebody else’s bad contract the Cubs can take in return. Yes, it will cost them some money, and it’s an expensive lesson to Hendry, a lesson I hope he keeps in mind the next time he decides to bid against himself, or sign a free agent the Cubs don’t really need.
Hopefully, that’s a summation of the issue that both “sides” here can accept.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I can accept that as long as you can accept the possibility
that the Cubs will have to simply release him. And – here’s the important part – if it comes to that, then you would support the Cubs in doing so.
In other words, eating the $21M is the worst case scenario and you can live with that. Obviously you hope like hell it doesn’t come to that, but if it does, you do it and move on.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
I haven't followed all the arguments here exactly
but I agree with Al that Hendry had to realize the suspension could lead to eating the entire contract.
Contrary to Al, however, I don’t buy that the lesson is not to bid against yourself, which Hendry wasn’t – TB was in on Bradley. I also doubt Hendry buys the notion that they didn’t really need Bradley. Their whole offseason plan revolved around a LH power bat and Bradley was the most complete player available last off-season to fit that role.
Is he traded yet?
But, at the same time...
… and this isn’t just hindsight speaking, either Raul Ibanez or Bobby Abreu would have been a better choice (probably Ibanez).
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Well, I'm not really looking to reopen an old debate
but I think it is quite a bit of hindsight. Bradley was known to be “fiery,” and the Cubs even cited that as a positive. We had never heard that Bradley was a destroyer of clubhouses to this degree. Strictly as players, Bradley offered more defense than both those players and much more SLG than Abreu was expected to offer. Ibanez may even be a moot point since Philly jumped out there and offered such a big deal so quickly.
Is he traded yet?
That's a sign that Jim Hendry didn't do his homework.
“Fiery” isn’t what the Cubs needed, either.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
It's not homework -
it’s misunderstanding what went wrong last off-season. We all did it and it took us time to realize it was just baseball – the Cubs went cold at the wrong time.
It’s no surprise that the once fiery but now calm Lou looked to fire as an issue. I’m not being critical here of anyone. It’s just a natural mistake.
Is he traded yet?
It's both, actually.
You’re right that it was a lack of understanding of the reason the Cubs lost.
But it was also a failure to understand that Milton Bradley wasn’t the correct response to that failure.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Actually...
… the only time I really saw “fire” out of him was in April, when he was ejected in his first Wrigley AB. He was right about that call, but we never really saw any of that the rest of the year.
And I don’t see that kind of “fire” winning games or championships, either. The Cubs were wrong if they thought that was the answer.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I think Hendry did his homework to a certain extent...
…and decided to roll the dice on Milton’s personality. Obviously, he came up a big loser in that regard, but I can’t fault him entirely because the numbers really were there. What’s happened is really the worst-case scenario (aside from, perhaps, Bradley suffering some sort of career-ending injury).
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
The numbers were there?
Yeah, for one year. If you look at Bradley’s numbers from 2000-2007, he averaged 86 games a year, averaged 10 HR and 40 RBI in those 86 games, and hit .273/.358/.439 (.797 OPS).
Looks a lot like his 2009 season, doesn’t it (except for the games played)? It’s the same thing that got Hendry suckered into signing Jeromy Burnitz after he put up funhouse numbers in Coors Field in 2004. We all knew he wouldn’t do that in Wrigley, and he didn’t.
Bradley’s outlier of a season got him a big-dollar contract. He wasn’t worth it even without the baggage.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Well, as I recall...
…just about every widely accepted projection system had Milton pegged to put up decent numbers with the Cubs in 2009. No, probably not another .999 OPS, but even if he dropped to, say, .850ish, that’s still pretty good. (Even now, CHONE is projecting Bradley to put up a .844 OPS.) When you couple that with his age and decent defensive numbers (before this season), he had a lot of value on paper. The main question was whether he’d stay healthy. Unfortunately, his abrasive personality and poor behavioral choices have trumped everything.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
It was the lowest ISO he's had since his rookie season
It resulted in the lowest OPS he’s had since his rookie season, and the second lowest wOBA since his rookie season.
To say that Milton Bradley’s 2009 was within career norms is to admit that you have no idea what Bradley’s career norms are.
And yet...
… I’ll bet you right now that when Bradley’s career is over, he will never have a season even close to his 2008 season.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
That depends how you define "close"
It was his age-30 season, so it figures that he’ll decline gradually from that year.
I wouldn’t bet that he’ll ever put up a year as good as that, but I also don’t think that was the expectation. Even the most bullish projection on Bradley for 2009 had his numbers declining somewhat from 2008.
But this is a tired old argument where some people say that Jim Hendry, a professional baseball executive, spent $30M of someone’s money without doing the due diligence necessary to have a realistic idea of what could be expected of Bradley going forward.
Maybe I’m just an optimist, but I don’t think that Hendry, a man who has built a team that made the playoffs 2 or the last 3 years, and 3 of the last 7, is so completely incompetent at his job – one of only 30 like it in the world – that he failed to perform such a basic task.
Maybe he did his due diligence statistically...
… but not in other ways.
Further, it does smack of the Burnitz signing — there was no way Burnitz was going to put up his Coors numbers at Wrigley.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I guess you just think he's incompetent then
And that’s fine.
Again, maybe I’m naive but I don’t think that anyone in business would commit an amount of money 1/20th the GDP of the country of Kirbati to a single human being without doing exhaustive due diligence.
amount of money 1/20th the GDP of the country of Kirbati
im glad you knew that
1 Aaron down, 1 to go
by jesus christos on Nov 24, 2009 10:33 PM CST up reply actions
Wow, that's painting with a broad brush.
I never said Hendry was incompetent. I believe he did not do his due diligence on Bradley, and got fooled by Burnitz’ big numbers in Colorado.
How you got from my statement about two signings to “I guess you just think he’s incompetent” is beyond me.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
There's no other explanation Al
How you got from my statement about two signings to "I guess you just think he’s incompetent" is beyond me.
That kind of work is a basic part of Hendry’s job description. Just because he made the wrong decision doesn’t mean he made a bad decision.
To put it another way, you’re saying that as a fan you noticed something about Bradley so patently obvious that you knew he would fail, and that somehow Jim Hendry, a person who evaluates baseball talent for a living, missed these things you noticed.
I’m not trying to be harsh here; I honestly don’t know how someone could arrive at that conclusion without thinking that Hendry is incompetent. And it’s not just you, I see that “Hendry didn’t do his homework!” meme from a lot of people.
I think Hendry made a mistake on the Bradley signing.
However, that doesn’t necessarily extrapolate to “Al thinks Hendry is incompetent”.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
If you say so.
To me there’s a huge difference between saying, “Hendry made the wrong decision” and “Hendry didn’t do his homework.”
Was there anyway Matt Holliday
would put up similar #s to his Coors’ #s in St. Louis?
Is he traded yet?
Well, and I'm half-joking here...
…Hendry did have dinner with the guy. I’m guessing he walked away from that meal with the feeling that Milton wouldn’t be this big of a problem. (And I presume they pored over his medical records.) Like I said, Jimbo rolled the dice on Bradley’s personality and came up snake eyes. Honestly, I’d guess only the most cynical among us predicted this awful of a result.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
Yes, this is the point I was trying to make.
Holding Bradley to his ‘08 season is probably like holding DLee to his ’05 season. He probably won’t reach that height again – but he (Milton or Derrek) doesn’t need to match those numbers to be a valuable player. I’m guessing this is what Hendry was looking at.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
You're cherry picking stats;
give the triple-slash stats and it’s a different story.
I don’t think it’s realistic to believe any GM gets over-excited by walk year spikes in stats to the point that they ignore their scouts and projections, etc.
Is he traded yet?
I disagree somewhat.
Obviously Hendry has decided he wants to be rid of Bradley, but what isn’t clear is what will happen if he’s unsatisfied with any of his options.
He almost certainly has a “rock bottom” he’s willing to go with Bradley, and that number may be > $20M, meaning that at a certain point it may be worth it to bring him back rather than eat it all and have Sam Fuld starting in right field next year.
by Wreckard on Nov 23, 2009 11:35 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I'm not going to sit here and split hairs
You interpet my posts as having a hatered toward Bradley, which I don’t. I don’t like what he did or said.
I interpet your posts as undying devotion to undeserving self-centered overgrown baby, which I imagine is not quite right either.
You feel and have numbers that support your wants to keep him. Got it.
I have a feeling and quotes that support my wants. We will not agree here on this matter. You can continue to go after me EVERY time you see that I have posted something or you can move on off you desire to stick it to me, it is your choice but after this post I will not be responding to anything you post in reference to Bradley.
I wish you well and let’s hope Cubs win the World Series next year, on this I believe we agree on, if not on the manner in which we get there.
Happy Thanksgiving
That’s not true!!! WHY THE F*CK WOULD YOU SAY THAT YOU AHOLE!! Ok maybe your right but you gotta give a little something here for it to work. I don’t know what I’m going to do this is the worst thing I’ve ever read, this day could not get any worse. Fine, F*ck it, you’re right.
by Ditkavsworld
That's probably for the best
Since you don’t seem to bother to read what I write anyway. Where do I show “devotion” to Bradley? Where do I even recommend keeping him?
Once again you construct these narratives in your head, based on black and white arguments when what I’m arguing is moderation.
Have a pleasant day
My only response to you.
That’s not true!!! WHY THE F*CK WOULD YOU SAY THAT YOU AHOLE!! Ok maybe your right but you gotta give a little something here for it to work. I don’t know what I’m going to do this is the worst thing I’ve ever read, this day could not get any worse. Fine, F*ck it, you’re right.
by Ditkavsworld
Rec'd again...
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is." -- Yogi Berra
i cannot argue that
but same time many people leave those jobs and can also be fired, unlike in MLB where they have contracts to complicate turn over of said employees.
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Good clubhouse leaders have impacts....and so do clubhouse jerks.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Nov 21, 2009 11:24 PM CST up reply actions
I don't dispute the impact of chemistry.
But I do wonder if a manager can’t contain the damage of ONE player in an otherwise healthy environment, then what’s a manager for?
As was said above, baseball is not like our office environments. It requires as little teamwork of any team sport. They’re supposed to be professionals; instead some of them – not all of them – are happy to go out and give interviews blaming their poor season on a man who’s never closer than 90 feet to them when they are performing.
I’m only hoping for better.
Is he traded yet?
by DGU on Nov 22, 2009 6:32 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
understood.
But the way it was worded with the “…not only” part for the team argument, gave me the impression you were directly referencing the fans argument.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
ok, then we're back where we started...
how does a fanbase divided on a single player affect the team?
do you believe Lee, ARam, Z, Soto, et al. really care if there is a pro-Bradley group and an anti-Bradley group?
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
No, they don't, but...
… I’d think the aforementioned players, plus others, would be very happy if he were somewhere else next year.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Would they take salary cuts to make it happen?
That would make it interesting.
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is." -- Yogi Berra
I think the article is lousy, but, by gum, it probably is correct.
Well, I never heard it before, but it sounds uncommon nonsense.
- The Mock Turtle, Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll -
Seconded by my Cubs fan neighbor, Mary Lou Wojciechowski
Move him out Jimbo .. even if all we end up is a lifetime supply of baseballs and a couple of scrappy minor leaguers from the Dominican ..
Blue mountains high .. Blue valleys low
I don't know which way we will go ..
One summer dream .. one summer dream ..
coda
ELO, 1975
Joe Posnanski is a tired cliche
he is numbers-obsessed; Cardinal-homer; overrated; wins awards by default — the same reason Ozzie Smith won 184 Gold Gloves in a row and he’s a twerp.
and he’s right here
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
For those that don't like Posnanski, I'm curious:
Who’s your favorite baseball writer these days?
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
Which one is singing the praises of Bradley most recently?
That’s not true!!! WHY THE F*CK WOULD YOU SAY THAT YOU AHOLE!! Ok maybe your right but you gotta give a little something here for it to work. I don’t know what I’m going to do this is the worst thing I’ve ever read, this day could not get any worse. Fine, F*ck it, you’re right.
by Ditkavsworld
He's probably my second favorite.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
Al Yellon
"Fasten those seatbelts"-Pat Hughes
by katie casey on Nov 22, 2009 11:09 AM CST up reply actions
Bloggers aren't real writers!
Com’on!
(somebody insert sarcasm thingy)
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
They actually give Bloggers press passes?
Isn’t that like given 12 year olds driver’s licences? Yeah they can reach the pedals but it doesn’t mean they know what they are doing. :P
Just kidding Al.
That’s not true!!! WHY THE F*CK WOULD YOU SAY THAT YOU AHOLE!! Ok maybe your right but you gotta give a little something here for it to work. I don’t know what I’m going to do this is the worst thing I’ve ever read, this day could not get any worse. Fine, F*ck it, you’re right.
by Ditkavsworld
One final comment on Joe Posnanski:
The reason I’ve come to appreciate Posnanski as a baseball writer is that when I started learning about the statistics behind baseball, Posnanski shed light on many figures that I had difficulty interpreting. I think he’s a great main-stream-media type of guy now (moving from KC Star to Sports Illustrated) that can do that for other fans, too.
Dan
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
Meh.
I’ve read better articles but far worse ones as well. I find it odd that Posnaski appears so stat friendly but never gets into WAR when discussing the “value” of a player. By the last few paragraphs, he seems to be all but admitting that he really doesn’t think Bradley was the least valuable player – clearly, Soriano has him beat – but, hey, Milton makes a better headline.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
Analysis of Talent and Needs
This Milton Bradley debate is absurd.
He never should have been considered for the Cubs.
What I never have understood is how the Cubs, Jim Hendry, Lou Piniella, et al, chose to make this useless move! Yes, I recall ad nauseum the Lefty bat non-issue. Raul Ibanez was available, and previously, favorably managed by Lou.
So why would ANY GM or MLB club gamble on such a “damaged” and historically “poisoned” commodity?
Yes, everyone makes mistakes. But MBs signing was “Brainless”!
I truly question that the same “braintrust” that signed MB can trade him for anything of value for the Cubs. That being said, I definitely see that MB must be gone, and at whatever cost the new Cubs owners decide.
Any precedent for a trade to the Japanese league? At least MB could avoid understanding that the fans are hurling unfavorable remarks at him.
Trade him to the Chunichi Dragons
The new Mr. Baseball
That’s not true!!! WHY THE F*CK WOULD YOU SAY THAT YOU AHOLE!! Ok maybe your right but you gotta give a little something here for it to work. I don’t know what I’m going to do this is the worst thing I’ve ever read, this day could not get any worse. Fine, F*ck it, you’re right.
by Ditkavsworld
Raul Ibanez
was not “favorably managed” by Lou. Ibanez is one of several very talented players unable to succeed under Lou’s management. Check Ibanez’ first run with Seattle under Lou. Given the number of times Hendry’s been reported to be inquiring on Ibanez, I believe we would have signed Ibanez last year had we had any other manager.
Is he traded yet?
"Favorably"
“suggesting a good outcome”.
Unlike MB – an unfavorable outcome!
So who is the Cubs “braintrust” calling the real shots on their selections and free agency trades, etc.?
by GeneticCubsFan on Nov 23, 2009 10:31 PM CST up reply actions
Did you even read his comment?
Raul Ibanez didn’t have “good outcomes” in Seattle under Lou Piniella. Look at the numbers.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
And you'd be wrong
Piniella wanted Hendry to take a run at Nate McLouth and, if the GM couldn’t trade for the then-Pirates standout, to sign Raul Ibanez.
Hendry did his job. He failed. Now it’s his job to fix it. That is, after all, what he gets paid for.
whoops, misunderstood your point
You’re saying that even though Lou wanted Ibanez (as cited above), he wouldn’t want to come (not cited) because of how many at bats Lou gave him ten years ago (cited). I suppose being Lou’s puppet has it’s ups and downs.
I'm arguing that Ibanez didn't succeed under Lou.
And that it wouldn’t have been a good idea to expect an Ibanez-Lou relationship would be that different now. It could be, because 10 years is a long time and Ibanez is established now, but how do you do your due diligence on something like that?
The fact is that Jim Hendry has followed Ibanez – why wouldn’t he go for him last off-season?
Is he traded yet?
I don't know where Mike Nadel got that info.
It’s not what I heard.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Raul Ibanez is 37
And a worse hitter and defender than Bradley at the time of the contract. Plus, he cost the same amount. It’s highly revisionist to say that he would have been a better option for the Cubs given the information available at the time.
by vivaelpujols on Nov 23, 2009 9:06 PM CST up reply actions
$10 M does not equal $7 M!
Really?
And how many teams did RI have to leave with a wake of turmoil left behind?
“…Given the information available at the time.” You must be kidding!
I’m sure that is why the Redbirds were in hot pursuit of MB!
by GeneticCubsFan on Nov 23, 2009 10:38 PM CST up reply actions
Ugh
Bradley was paid 3/30. So was Ibanez.
by vivaelpujols on Nov 23, 2009 11:58 PM CST up reply actions
How exactly do you learn math in Bird Country?
1997 Seattle Mariners $150,000
1998 Seattle Mariners $170,000
1999 Seattle Mariners $220,000
2000 Seattle Mariners $275,000
2002 Kansas City Royals $800,000
2003 Kansas City Royals $3,000,000
2004 Seattle Mariners $3,916,667
2005 Seattle Mariners $4,416,667
2006 Seattle Mariners $4,250,000
2007 Seattle Mariners $5,500,000
2008 Seattle Mariners $5,500,000
2009 Philadelphia Phillies $7,166,666
Again, MB being PAID $10 M last year vs RI’s $7.16+ M is NOT the same!
RI EARNED his money; MB…
by GeneticCubsFan on Nov 24, 2009 12:34 AM CST up reply actions
What is wrong with you?
Milton was signed to a 3 year 30 million dollar contract before the 2009 season.
Raul Ibanez was signed to a 3 year 30 million dollar contract before the 2009 season.
They were paid the same amount of money.
by vivaelpujols on Nov 24, 2009 12:39 AM CST up reply actions
“The deal is believed to be worth $30 million over three years.” The date of your source was 12/08.
“Believed” does NOT compute to actually being paid; and the distribution of the contract monies is absent in your source.
RI was paid $7. 16+ M in 2009 by the Phils.
Your logic and math are faulty.
They were NOT paid the same amount.
The only thing wrong with me is that I have wasted my time commenting to the illogical thoughts and non-facts of a redbird “fan”.
by GeneticCubsFan on Nov 24, 2009 12:49 AM CST up reply actions
You are worthless.
Bradley was paid $7M last year as well. Both have backloaded contracts, for around 3 years, $30M (Ibanez is actually paid more). Next time do your homework before you insult someone like VEP who contributes some of the best content on this site.
Raul Ibanez of
3 years/$31.5M (2009-11)
* 3 years/$31.5M (2009-11)
o signed by Philadelphia as a free agent 12/16/08
o $2M signing bonus
o 09:$6.5M, 10:$11.5M, 11:$11.5M
o no-trade protection
o award bonuses: $0.1M for WS MVP; $0.1M for MVP ($75,000 for 2nd in vote, $50,000 for 3rd); $50,000 for Gold Glove, All Star, LCS MVP, AP/TSN/BA All Star
Milton Bradley of
3 years/$30M (2009-11)
* 3 years/$30M (2009-11)
o signed by Chicago Cubs as a free agent 1/6/09
o $4M signing bonus
o 09:$5M, 10:$9M, 11:$12M
o 2010 and 2011 base salaries may increase by $0.25M for LCS MVP, $0.5M for WS MVP; $0.5M for MVP ($0.3M for 2nd in vote, $0.2M for 3rd, $0.15M for 4th, $0.1M for 5th) in any previous season
Hey look at that!
Ibanez was paid more actually.
by vivaelpujols on Nov 24, 2009 12:20 PM CST up reply actions
Not to get nitpicky
but if you add the signing bonus, RI got $33.5 while MB got $34M.
That’s not true!!! WHY THE F*CK WOULD YOU SAY THAT YOU AHOLE!! Ok maybe your right but you gotta give a little something here for it to work. I don’t know what I’m going to do this is the worst thing I’ve ever read, this day could not get any worse. Fine, F*ck it, you’re right.
by Ditkavsworld
actually, I think the bonus is already factored in.
add up the yearly salaries for RI and you get $29.5. Then add the $2M signing bonus and you get the $31.5M total reported.
Same for MB. Salaries add up to $26M. Add the $4M bonus and you get the $30M total.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
I stand corrected
That’s not true!!! WHY THE F*CK WOULD YOU SAY THAT YOU AHOLE!! Ok maybe your right but you gotta give a little something here for it to work. I don’t know what I’m going to do this is the worst thing I’ve ever read, this day could not get any worse. Fine, F*ck it, you’re right.
by Ditkavsworld
eh, no need to stand. Take a knee and crack open a cold one...
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Um, Bradley was paid $7M in 2009.
a $5M base salary (according to Cots) plus half ($2M) of his $4M signing bonus.
But you’re right – $7M is not the same as $7.16+M. Definitely NOT the same…
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
See here is what you did there
And how many teams did RI have to leave with a wake of turmoil left behind?
… took something that happened a year after he signed the contract
"…Given the information available at the time." You must be kidding!
… and for some reason though it was considers “information available at the time”
You might want to read some stuff about the order or events and how that relates to life. It turns out that basing past decisions off what happens in the future is rather hard to do.
by vivaelpujols on Nov 24, 2009 12:14 AM CST up reply actions
You are so correct!
so why do you happen to fail at computing simple math?
The indisputable information that was available at the time of MB’s signing by the Cubs, and before, was that he “wore out his welcome,” and was traded from every team that he ever played for, barring his Little league career – of which I hear there were worn out welcome mats there too!
Since you are so expert on MB, perhaps go the redbirds blog and advocate his signing/trade to be resurrected by TLR. Jim H. and a gazillion Cub fans would hail you as a savior!
by GeneticCubsFan on Nov 24, 2009 12:43 AM CST up reply actions
Math is obviously not your strong suit.
Perhaps you could apply as MB’s agent. I’m sure he would welcome your miracles of turning $7 M into $10M!
LMAO
by GeneticCubsFan on Nov 24, 2009 12:51 AM CST up reply actions
scroll up a little for your comeuppance
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is." -- Yogi Berra
sometimes i feel embarrassed to be a cubs fan
now is one of those times
1 Aaron down, 1 to go
by jesus christos on Nov 24, 2009 3:53 PM CST up reply actions
Here... this should make you proud to be a Cubs fan again...
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
it does
it does…
1 Aaron down, 1 to go
by jesus christos on Nov 24, 2009 6:01 PM CST up reply actions
It makes me regret not being a painter
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is." -- Yogi Berra
umm... you can always take up finger-painting... ;-)
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
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