Discussion: Marlon Byrd vs. Mike Cameron
by Al Yellon on Nov 25, 2009 8:49 AM CST
in The Next 100 Years
228 comments
Yesterday, I posted an idea regarding a potential free agent signing for a Cubs bench position in 2010. Admittedly, this wasn't the most important possible addition to the roster for next year -- however, the Cubs had a very poor bench in 2009 and I still think Chad Tracy (at the right price) would be a good addition.
Today, I'm going to analyze two players who have been mentioned as possible center fielders for the Cubs in 2010. Again, for the purposes of this exercise, assume that Milton Bradley has already been traded somewhere and not for another outfielder; that Kosuke Fukudome will be returned to right field, and that the Tigers' Curtis Granderson (who would be my first choice) is either not made available for trade by Detroit or has been dealt somewhere else.
So, let's look at two other choices -- Marlon Byrd and Mike Cameron.
Marlon Byrd has played eight seasons in the major leagues with three teams (the Phillies, the Nationals and the Rangers). He was the Phillies' regular center fielder in 2003, his rookie season; he played well enough to finish fourth in Rookie of the Year voting (behind Dontrelle Willis, Scott Podsednik and Brandon Webb). Declining quickly in his second year, he found himself dumped to the Nats, and signed with the Rangers as a free agent after the 2006 season. He never got full-time playing time again until last year, when he put up a very good .283/.329/.479 year with a career-high 20 HR and 89 RBI, numbers he hadn't come close to previously. His .808 OPS was in the same general area as his other two part-time seasons in Texas; overall he hit .295/.352/.468 (.820 OPS) in his three years as a Ranger.
Further, he seems to have been helped by Rangers Ballpark -- he posted an OPS over 100 points higher at home in each of his three seasons in Texas, although his career OPS is also higher at home (.810) than on the road (.716).
Byrd is 32. He will be 33 in August. His 2009 season appears to be an outlier in terms of power (his 43 doubles tied for 8th in the AL) and these are just the types of numbers that Jim Hendry often gets sucked into giving a three-year backloaded contract to. I'd stay away from Byrd.
With Mike Cameron, you know exactly what you're getting. He will be 37 in January, and over the 11 seasons since he became a fulltime regular in 1999 (not counting the two years prior to that when he had fewer than 500 PA for the White Sox), his OPS has ranged from .759 to .837. He's averaged 22 HR, 75 RBI, 66 walks and 143 strikeouts over those 11 seasons -- and his 2009 season was pretty close to that (24 HR, 70 RBI, 75 BB, 156 K).
At 37, he might have to be rested from time to time and for that, the Cubs have Sam Fuld. In a lineup that has Derrek Lee, Aramis Ramirez and (presumably) a healthy and 2008-style Alfonso Soriano and Geovany Soto, Cameron could hit sixth or seventh, as he did in Milwaukee, and produce the same way he did there. In 138 career PA at Wrigley Field, Cameron has hit .261/.355/.521 with 8 HR, and hits .257/.349/.454 in day games.
At 37 -- well, you wouldn't want to give a longterm deal to a guy like that. But a one-year contract with a mutual option for a second year based on incentives -- I'd do that. Cameron is also familiar to Lou Piniella, who managed him for three years in Seattle -- two of those years the Mariners went to the postseason.
Mike Cameron isn't my first choice; as I wrote last week, that would be Curtis Granderson. But -- if Granderson isn't available, Cameron would be a good second pick.
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Al, I agree
if Granderson is not available then Cameron would be my first choice as long it was only 1 or 2 year deal.
Always been a Cameron fan
And Fuld can be an excellent backup.
Good move.
As for Byrd, you’re probably right about his park helping him, but you also can’t overlook the AL-NL move. His numbers could go up.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Nov 25, 2009 8:57 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
+1
Cameron has always shown class, and plays hard. I like him in a short term deal.
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
I think Hendry has handed out enough contracts to guys coming off career years
Unless we can get Byrd for extremely cheap, we should stay far, far away. The chances of him improving on 20 homers, and 89 RBIs, when he’s never touched those numbers before (or never come close to the 20 homers) are very, very slim
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Nov 25, 2009 8:38 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
+1
Didn’t we sign someone very similar last season? OF from Texas who had a career year? Someone want to remind how that turned out?
That’s not true!!! WHY THE F*CK WOULD YOU SAY THAT YOU AHOLE!! Ok maybe your right but you gotta give a little something here for it to work. I don’t know what I’m going to do this is the worst thing I’ve ever read, this day could not get any worse. Fine, F*ck it, you’re right.
by Ditkavsworld
Something like this...
"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things." ~Winston Churchill
WOW, I'm speechless...
But yet correct.
That’s not true!!! WHY THE F*CK WOULD YOU SAY THAT YOU AHOLE!! Ok maybe your right but you gotta give a little something here for it to work. I don’t know what I’m going to do this is the worst thing I’ve ever read, this day could not get any worse. Fine, F*ck it, you’re right.
by Ditkavsworld
Al, do you
believe that if we sign Cameron we’d also have Fuld provide backup to Fuku & Soriano? What other backup outfielder would we have off the bench?
I’d love to see the Granderson/Johnson or Fuld platoon in CF, but Cameron is also a solid choice!
I still like Reed Johnson as a 4th OF...
… no matter who is signed. Depends on how much you’d have to pay him, of course.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Old players (Cameron/Byrd)
i wouldn’t sign either one. the problem I have with that is he’s (Cameron) another old guy who has no future here. is he going to take us to the WS?
the difference between Rickettes and Hendry is Hendry shops for next year with no reserve plan. trades away prospects, over pays old slow over the hill players.
Rickettes does business for today and tomorrow and 2012, etc. he wants to work the farm system as well as signing, not over paying good younger stars. when you own a business you promote and attract good young talent. that’s my take.
Art
Of course you have to do those things.
But the Cubs have a large number of players who are still in the “win-now window”. Unless you are going to blow up the team and start over, yes, you have to fill a hole for a year or two with a guy who can produce at a position you need production.
Asking “Is he going to take up to the World Series” is the wrong question. Of course Mike Cameron isn’t going to do that himself. But he could be a piece of the puzzle.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I request evidence to back up both assertions in this claim:
These are just the types of numbers that Jim Hendry often gets sucked into giving a three-year backloaded contract to.
Is he traded yet?
Aaron Miles.
OK, so that was only two years.
How about Jason Marquis?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Marquis' deal was backloaded
but came after he had a bad year, not a good year.
There’s a difference between a backloaded deal like Marquis (one where Hendry clearly planned to trade Marquis before paying the big backload and go bit by the market shifting on him) and a deal that simply inflates, which isn’t a bad strategy at all.
Is he traded yet?
Milton Bradley?
"...the internet is not something you just dump something on. It's not a truck. It's a series of tubes." - Sen. Ted Stevens
His deal is not really backloaded either.
Once you include the signing bonus, it’s more of a regularly inflating contract than a backloaded one.
Bradley is also not someone we signed just because he had a single good year – he has a history of performing well when healthy.
Is he traded yet?
Yabbut...
… had he performed in 2008 as he did the rest of his career, he would not have rated a $30m contract.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Yes he did.
Projections adjusted for his 2008 and saw him as better than Ibanez – all told – and Ibanez had set the market at 3/30.
You can argue that the Cubs could have waited the market out and gotten him below that price. I just don’t see it. Players and their agents knew the Cubs were in the market. I don’t think the price was going down all that much for the Cubs.
Is he traded yet?
I think the point is...
…that this is the sort of player that JH likes to jump on. So what if someone was going to give Bradley ~3/$30 because of his career year in 2008? That doesn’t make it any better of any idea.
"...the internet is not something you just dump something on. It's not a truck. It's a series of tubes." - Sen. Ted Stevens
I know that's the point
and I’m arguing “the point” doesn’t bear scrutiny.
In regards to Bradley – I’m saying that Bradley was going to get 3/30 or something close to it, not because of his 2008, but because of his entire career, which has been good in terms of pure numbers.
Is he traded yet?
Maybe...
He was significantly better in 2008 than in any other full season. Based on his pre-2008 production, he signed in ‘08 for 1/5. Had his performance/health been in line with his career norms in 2008, i don’t think there is any way that he gets 3/30.
Similarly without Soriano’s 2006, there’s no way that he gets 8/136 or any of the other big money offers that were on the table for him.
"...the internet is not something you just dump something on. It's not a truck. It's a series of tubes." - Sen. Ted Stevens
do you really think ...
any other team would have given Bradley three years? I don’t.
Maybe not three years
but it’s not like he’ll be that old in three years. He was getting paid somewhere between what Dunn and Ibanez got one way or another.
Is he traded yet?
it's not an age thing ...
giving Bradley a vesting third year was a huge mistake. It would be a helluva lot easier right now to trade Milton if they knew he would be a free agent at the end of 2010, to say nothing about the money.
I agree with that.
I think Hendry got too cute with the vesting 3rd year. It motivated Bradley to play hurt which hurt his stats and setup the disappointment which exacerbated his discontent.
Could we have managed a 3/24 if it was all guaranteed? I don’t know, but maybe, and then, as you say, trading him would be easier.
Is he traded yet?
I think giving him a third year was a mistake
Giving him a vesting third year was a bigger mistake.
It's hard to know what the market would have born
but I tend to agree. From the press conference, though, it seemed like it was important for Bradley that he think he had found a longer-term home, which may have had him pushing hard for that third year.
Is he traded yet?
it's funny
I advocated for the Bradley signing last offseason. Besides the fact that he was the best RF of the free agents, I figured the Cubs could use a harder-edge guy in the clubhouse, and I liked the fact that he was a switch-hitter.
Those last two points were very true — but they had the exact opposite effect. Milton’s hard-edge didn’t sit well in a clubhouse that was already pretty tense (see the 2008 NLDS). And his switch-hitting kinda hid the fact that he wasn’t THAT good of a left-handed hitter, which was what the Cubs needed.
Anyway, I can see what Hendry was thinking. But, even last year, I thought he gave Milton a year too many.
I think it's a big issue
to ask just how much of an effect the Cubs’ clubhouse chemistry has on things. We’ve blamed the tenseness on 2008’s playoffs and the anger on 2009’s regular season.
I’m really asking. Is this just what the Cubs have blamed, or is it a real issue. And if it’s a real issue, then it’s one that is bigger (or just different) than MB, who wasn’t here last season.
Is he traded yet?
Chemistry is a tricky thing to predict.
Does chemistry breed winning, or does winning breed chemistry? It’s hard to say. However, if the Cubs thought a “harder-edge” guy was needed, they chose the wrong person, because from all accounts, Bradley isolated himself in the clubhouse. There was no contact, much less the aggressive leadership that Hendry must have thought he was getting.
Apart from that, I agree with the above that the third year is making the trade more difficult. A vesting option wasn’t a bad idea, but 75 games? That’s a no-brainer. Even for someone as injured as Bradley, he played in fewer than 75 games only once between 2001-2008. They should have made it 500 plate appearances.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Bradley would have made whatever goal we set for the vesting option
and he would have played worse in order to make it.
Is he traded yet?
This is exactly why he should never have been signed.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I don't think anger ruined the 2009 Cubs
Soto, Soriano and Fontenot had awful seasons. Bradley was disappointing on the field and trading DeRosa without a suitable backup in place for Ramirez was a terrible move.
Those are five spots in the lineup (combining Fontenot with Miles) that underproduced for at least half the season. Throw in the misfire with Kevin Gregg, and I think the Cubs were lucky to win 83 games.
I tend to agree with that analysis
but others seem to buy into the chemistry angle more.
Is he traded yet?
I can see "chemistry"
… being cited as a reason for the 2008 NLDS loss. The team was too tight and, as Joe Torre said last week on “Mike and MIke,” it had "100 years of history on its shoulders.
2009 was another story — one about underperforming. The people who cite chemistry as the key reason for a disappointing year are keying in on signing Bradley and trading DeRosa. Both moves arguably hurt team chemistry, but I think they hurt team performance MUCH more.
And those moves, of course, had nothing to do with Soto or Soriano or how much the 2009 Cubs were counting on them. I also don’t think either guy would say they struggled because they missed DeRosa (ow Wood) and didn’t like Bradley.
Also, Fontenot’s struggles and Ramirez’s injury had nothing to do with chemistry.
But I think the point is....
…that this is the sort of player that JH likes to jump on. So what if someone was going to give Bradley ~3/$30 because of his career year in 2008? That doesn’t make it any better of any idea.
"...the internet is not something you just dump something on. It's not a truck. It's a series of tubes." - Sen. Ted Stevens
Soriano
He was given his insane contract immediately following an outlier season that he hasn’t even come close to repeating.
by WiscCubsFan on Nov 25, 2009 11:13 AM CST up reply actions
And the myths go on
Soriano’s 2007 and 2008 with the Cubs were essentially the same season by tripleslash stats as his 2006 with the Nats. Sori’s contract isn’t good, but the idea that we bought him on a career year is just wrong.
Is he traded yet?
are you saying ...
that Soriano’s production level in 2007 and 2008 was the same as 2006 — but that he stayed healthy in 2006?
Not trying to start an argument — I’m just trying to make sure I understand what you’re saying, DGU.
You're both sort of accurate.
His average, & OPS remained consistant, but the counted on HR’s and stolen bases definitely have lagged.
Would the two of you agree that Soriano, when healthy, has been an important part of the Cub’s offense, just not as anticipated as a leadoff hitter, threat on the basepaths, nor in CF as initially advertised?
at daver's request, Let's frontload this B**ch!
I wasn't really disagreeing with DGU
I wanted DGU to clarify the point. I find that challenging the stat-oriented without doing your homework (and I haven’t done any in this case) isn’t that productive.
However, I’d agree that Soriano in 2007 and 2008 was a huge part of the Cubs. In this case, Frankly, because of Soriano’s shortcomings, $18 million a year might have been too much even if he replicated 2006 numbers (without injuries) for eight years.
I'll say this about Soriano -
He was a vast improvement on Juan Pierre as a leadoff hitter and thankfully, we’ve gotten to a point where we’re looking for more appropriate skills out of our lead-off hitters.
I also think it was worth trying Soriano in CF since Pie wasn’t ready yet, but looked to be the CF of the future. It was worth trying, but probably should have been given up in spring training.
Finally, I think the thing about Soriano is that he’s so awesome to watch when he’s on and so frustrating to watch when he’s off. Right now, we’re coming off of a very off season and it colors a lot of how we think about him. Let’s hope he gets healthy.
Is he traded yet?
even when Soriano's really on offensively ...
he’s frustrating to watch because of bone-headed plays in the field. But, yes, I think we all are forgetting Soriano 2007-08 in favor of 2009.
There may be no single player with a greater
single ability to change a game as no other player may have such a differential in extremes. High highs and low lows.
It’s like the weather geek concept of tough places to live with greatest swing in annual temperatures and Chicago having the ability to be a 140 to go from low of -35 to 105 in a year. Soriano is that player.
at daver's request, Let's frontload this B**ch!
No, that's why he sucks.
My biggest complaint about Chicago is that the weather extremes suck, therefore, …
at daver's request, Let's frontload this B**ch!
Right
that his 2007 and 2008 were similar rate numbers – although the SBs are a whole other issue. That said, Soriano’s SBs dropped off because of an injury, not because his speed just disappeared without explanation.
Is he traded yet?
well ...
does that really matter? His speed disappeared. Period.
Except that it's not "period end of sentence."
Injuries can heal. Soriano’s legs may never get back to where they were, but they also might.
Is he traded yet?
OK, that's fair
I can see your point, looking forward.
Yes and No
He was signed because of his durability and his production in Washington. If Hendry thought Soriano was worth $18 million per season based on his average year, I think he overpaid significantly for a good hitter with horrible defense. Obviously Soriano was bad this past season, so the contract is looking its worst right now. Yes, his OPS was pretty good in 07/08, but as I recall watching those two seasons, it was very frustrating much of the time regarding Soriano due to his hot/cold streaks and ubiquitous leg injuries. Hendry can’t be faulted for Soriano’s injuries, but he can be faulted for handing out a ridiculous backloaded contract to an overrated player!
I'd agree with Cameron as the #2 pick
He is more likely to sign for one year – if the Cubs don’t get Granderson, I want them to be able to review/reassess after 2010. As you point out, Cameron is a more predictable proposition – I wouldn’t trust the numbers of any hitter coming out of Texas.
I could see it happening in this market
and because Cameron’s 37.
Agreed...
… or one year with a mutual option for a second.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
totally with you on this one, Al
Cameron, IIRC, even talked last year about being able to handle pressure in big markets. Byrd might be able to do that, but we KNOW Cameron can.
I think the Cubs need to move heaven and earth to get Granderson (left handed, younger). But Cameron is a much better plan B, IMO, than Byrd.
Yeah, I think that's what we see too
Wouldn’t be surprised if he gets the same as he got in Milwaukee – 1 year at 8mm and a 10mm option
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
Makes sense to me.
Granderson is still my first choice. But as I said, if he’s not available (for whatever reason), I’d turn to Cameron.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
The thing about cameron
Is all he costs is money
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
but he could bring less as well.
Granderson is young, and a more rounded player at this point in his career
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Nov 25, 2009 8:47 PM CST up reply actions
I didn't think that last year about Abreu either.
Harry Caray: Marshall is going back to LA to get cocaine for his injured foot.
Steve Stone: Harry, that’s Novocaine.
by Julio Zuleta's Voodoo on Nov 25, 2009 12:17 PM CST up reply actions
I like the Cameron idea
He always seems to do well. The thing about him is that he is very streaky. He’ll tear it up for 1 week, then flow the rest of the month.
by Don't Fear the Reaper on Nov 25, 2009 9:25 AM CST reply actions
always seems to do well?
He hasn’t hit over .250 since 2006
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Nov 25, 2009 8:48 PM CST up reply actions
Cameron's age concerns me...
and his career K numbers…
At 37, the likelihood that Cameron will put up number at or above his career averages is not that good.
Outside of that, Cameron would be ,in all other cases, be the better choice. But with Rudy Jaramillo as hitting coach and the things mentioned above, I think I’d prefer Byrd.
yes, but...
Cameron HAS been posting those numbers for the past two years in Milwaukee. Players tend to decline, not suddenly fall off a cliff
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
darn...
I was hoping to come back with a “numbers were a product of the ballpark he played in” argument, but that wouldn’t hold water since Cameron actually played quite a lot better away from Miller Park the last two seasons.
But I will add this, for some reason, players tend to fall off a cliff after they put on that Cub uniform. (That’s a joke, not a broad statement of fact.)
Some hitters just strike out a lot
Cameron’s power numbers are legit, and his defense is really good – more than makes up for his value.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
he also hasn't crested the .250 average for three years
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Nov 25, 2009 8:49 PM CST up reply actions
So?
The batting average is very little of Cameron’s value.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al Yellon on Nov 26, 2009 9:18 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
god, Al
If the Cubs brass thinks like this (and I’m not saying they don’t), our team won’t win a world title until my grandchildren have gray hair.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just North of Wrigley Field
by jameslcrockett on Nov 27, 2009 1:19 AM CST up reply actions
Quite the opposite.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Nov 28, 2009 12:16 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Right...
Not sure why some people are so afraid of higher strikeout rates, when the other numbers are solid.
Someday we'll go all the way...
by CubsBullsBears on Nov 25, 2009 9:16 PM CST up reply actions
That's why you only sign him for one year
Maybe at 37, he’ll be ready for assisted living, but he probably will be pretty close to last year.
Regarding hitting, first mission is to get a good defensive CF (cover for Soriano, let Fukudome move back to RF). The Cubs need to get some offense (more than Fuld/Johnson are likely to offer as a permanent platoon) here and some power would be nice, but defense is the fist mission.
Marlon Byrd?
Haven’t we seen this movie before? Average talent goes down to Texas. Plays in band band that RH hitters love. Jarimillo tutors them to the point of being competent. Sometimes this includes rumors of PED use. Talent goes and gets multi-year deal elsewhere, only to turn into a pumpkin. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat.
I don’t need to see this sequel, part eight. Pass.
For all the love that Arlington gets as a hitters park
Wrigley has just as big of an offensive park factor than Arlington.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
by berselius on Nov 25, 2009 9:52 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Is it just as big for RH?
Park effects can be very different for RH and LH – and I don’t know the specifics right now for Arlington and Wrigley.
Is he traded yet?
Not sure
But considering that most MLB players are right-handed, you’d think that would be a big part of its park factor
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
Is it really necessary to move Fuk back to right?
I think I would rather leave him in center and sign Jermaine Dye to play right.
Jermaine Dye?
Oh, no. He’d be a statue in right field. No thanks.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
agreed
There’s one sure thing about getting Cameron instead of getting Dye — the outfield defense will improve.
K-Fuk in center...
was at times, painful to watch. He’s an above average right fielder. Put him back over there. Some players just have a natural knack to read the ball off the bat in center field. K-Fuk wasn’t one of them.
Besides, we have enough right fielders. We don’t need Dye as well. The White Sox didn’t want him, and I don’t want their cast-offs.
The team ERA would be about 6
Soriano can’t catch a fly ball, Dye can’t run to one, and Fukudome can’t cover center. This is a really bad idea. The Cubs don’t need any more Jeromy Burnitz types. This team isn’t the kind that needs just one yeat from a veteran to get over the top, and shouldn’t waste time and money on such.
by bringbackbanks on Nov 25, 2009 9:46 PM CST up reply actions
Any non-tender candidates that should be in this discussion?
Ryan Church? Jody Gerut?
Is he traded yet?
Church is always interesting
as a complementary piece, but I would think that we could put the notion of him as a starter to bed now.
by Damen Jackson on Nov 25, 2009 10:21 AM CST up reply actions
could be a replacement for Reed Johnson
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Nov 25, 2009 8:51 PM CST up reply actions
I have always liked...
…Jody Gerut, but haven’t been able to work up the courage to suggest him. I guess my main question is whether his value would be higher than Sam Fuld.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Nov 28, 2009 12:28 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
My thinking -
is that if the Cubs can’t get the CF they want, trying to get a cheap option like Gerut makes some sense – alongside Fuld. Neither is certain, but you throw both out there, with Colvin another option and you hope one of the three maybes can give you temporary production – no matter what you expect from them long-term.
Is he traded yet?
Yeah, I could see maybe letting Fuld and Gerut compete for playing time.
That may push both to excel and, if one or the other really seems on his way to a great season, perhaps the Cubs could package the other in a midseason trade. Gerut has always looked like a good player to me, even though I realize his career has been up and down in terms of injuries and production. But Jody’s had some significant MLB success as recently as 2008 and his career UZR numbers in centerfield are quite good. Plus, it’s not like he’s a stranger to the Cubs organization. I’d like to think he’s at least on Hendry’s radar as a non-tender grab.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Nov 28, 2009 1:36 PM CST up reply actions
Gerut probably commands a little more money than Fuld
And is that money worth it? Does it cover the difference between Fuld and Gerut? I’d say no
"If I were playing third base and my mother were rounding third with the run that was going to beat us, I'd trip her. Oh, I'd pick her up and brush her off and say, 'Sorry, Mom,' but nobody beats me." ~ Leo Durocher
That money would be a gamble.
A gamble on a player who put up a .351 wOBA in 525 PAs in 2003 and a .365 wOBA in 356 PAs as recently as 2008. Granted, he was awful with the Padres and Brewers last season. But it’ll be interesting to see whether Fuld ever puts up numbers as big as those. And, again, Gerut appears to be every bit as good defensively as Fuld, if not better.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Nov 28, 2009 5:22 PM CST up reply actions
Cameron is >> Byrd
But he’s probably going to command more money. Byrd is likely to be a league average player, which is not great but nothing to sneeze at. It sounds ilke the market for Cameron is pretty hot so I think the Cubs could end up with Byrd. He can play credible defense (though likely not as good as Cameron) and moves Fukudome back to RF, which greatly improves the Cubs outfield defense.
If the Cubs can get Cameron on a cheapish 1-year deal, then I’m all for it. But I don’t think he signs for less than 6 million, and think that he will actually sign for something closer to the 8-10 million he got from the Brewers the past two seasons.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
A lot of "cheapish" depends on how much of Bradley's deal the Cubs have to eat.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
$8M-$10M might be what they have to do
Byrd might get close to that for 3-4 years.
Anyone who pays Byrd that much will regret it.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Seems to me like neither is a great option
But this team does have the talent to make it into the playoffs with the current hitters. I don’t think the Cubs are looking for a replacement 3 or 4 hitter this off season. There just isn’t one available within the budget, and they really don’t need a Holliday or Bay.
The biggest issues I had with the hitting last year was RBI production. The team just didn’t produce with RISP. When I look at Cameron’s increasing K totals, it concerns me.
Yes, Byrd’s numbers last year seem shaky considering the guy hasn’t produced well in other seasons. Al did say that he hasn’t been a full time starter until last year for a few years. This intrigues me. Continuing to work with Jaramillo would be excellent IMO so that the Texas factor isn’t as evident/obvious.
I also like that Byrd has had playing time in all the OF positions, so he is a good option against LHP for Fukudome to sit.
Cameron’s age also worries me. I think he’d be an excellent back up at this point, but his career demands bigger money and more years than the Cubs should give him.
"If I were playing third base and my mother were rounding third with the run that was going to beat us, I'd trip her. Oh, I'd pick her up and brush her off and say, 'Sorry, Mom,' but nobody beats me." ~ Leo Durocher
RISP hitting is largely a factor of bad luck
And the Cubs had terrible luck last year
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
You make your own luck
Harvey Dent knows what he’s talking about. You can’t hope that Cameron’s numbers will get better.
"If I were playing third base and my mother were rounding third with the run that was going to beat us, I'd trip her. Oh, I'd pick her up and brush her off and say, 'Sorry, Mom,' but nobody beats me." ~ Leo Durocher
by Musicdude10 on Nov 25, 2009 10:25 AM CST up reply actions
Wait, what?
Where did I say Cameron’s numbers would get better? I actually think his numbers will drop from the lines he put up the last few years, but he’s still a valuable player. Cameron also hits for power, which makes a big difference.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
You didn't
But it would be lucky if they did…? Not entirely sure what I was going for. Was it unlucky that Soriano, Soto, Bradley all had bad years? Possibly. I don’t think you can find any luck in Cameron is what I was trying to say. You know what you’re going to get, and I don’t like it that much. We have a guy who swings and misses a lot but can hit for power in Soriano. Don’t need 2 of those guys
"If I were playing third base and my mother were rounding third with the run that was going to beat us, I'd trip her. Oh, I'd pick her up and brush her off and say, 'Sorry, Mom,' but nobody beats me." ~ Leo Durocher
by Musicdude10 on Nov 25, 2009 10:51 AM CST up reply actions
Peter Griffen told
everyone the answer; “The Byrd is the Word!”
at daver's request, Let's frontload this B**ch!
hasn't it been established that he's actually mentally retarded
and therefore we should stay away from his advice
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Nov 25, 2009 8:52 PM CST up reply actions
given payroll constraints
i would hope that the cubs would be content to let one of sam fuld, tyler colvin or james adduci try to win the starting CF job in spring training and back them up with a right-handed hitting outfielder that can handle center.
Me either
Harry Caray: Marshall is going back to LA to get cocaine for his injured foot.
Steve Stone: Harry, that’s Novocaine.
by Julio Zuleta's Voodoo on Nov 25, 2009 12:18 PM CST up reply actions
I still like Vernon Wells
If nothing else, the guy is versatile.
by Mike Vails Evil Twin on Nov 25, 2009 10:51 AM CST reply actions
Ah, Road Warrior...
It’s not really the same cat, is it?
by Damen Jackson on Nov 25, 2009 10:58 AM CST up reply actions
Hard to believe, but it is
Every time I hear Vernon Wells mentioned, it makes me think of the actor.
by Mike Vails Evil Twin on Nov 25, 2009 10:59 AM CST up reply actions
You're kind of blowing my mind with that one...
I would have never guessed.
by Damen Jackson on Nov 25, 2009 11:01 AM CST up reply actions
Yeah, I recently found that out myself
“Commando” is one of the crappiest big budget movies I’ve ever seen, but I like Wells’ description of his character in it—“Freddy Mercury on steroids.”
by Mike Vails Evil Twin on Nov 25, 2009 11:07 AM CST up reply actions
That was about my opinion of that...
character as well. But his homo-erotic turn in Mad Max was priceless.
Interestingly, I was up, editing some photos from the NU game, and got treated to it at 2:00 a.m. this morning. Road Warrior tired and drunk is hilarious.
by Damen Jackson on Nov 25, 2009 11:11 AM CST up reply actions
I caught it the other night, too
I’ve seen it at least a dozen times, but I’d been drinking a bit as well and got sucked into it. I have to admit that I still enjoy it. Unfortunately, I can’t say the same about Thunderdome. That one was really disappointing.
And yeah, Well’s character in “The Road Warrior” was priceless—a batsh*t psycho badass with a tender side who wears chaps and a loincloth. I wonder what his parents were like…
by Mike Vails Evil Twin on Nov 25, 2009 11:28 AM CST up reply actions
Re: "Commando"
If by “crappiest” you mean “hands-down laugh-your-ass-off hilarious” then, yes, agreed.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Nov 28, 2009 1:38 PM CST up reply actions
Has Mike Cameron ever mentioned wanting to play for the Cubs?
I’m just making a completely stupid and unsupported statement here, but he seems like he might be the kind of player that would be a little scared off after the “Bradley situation” last season.
Is it possible he might not want to come here and possibly face the same scrutiny that was placed on Bradley?
IIRC he was one of the quoted players in Gordo's racism at wrigley article last spring
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
Really?
I don’t recall that. In any case, I don’t think these are comparable situations. We’d know exactly what we were getting in Cameron — his numbers are remarkably consistent for the last decade.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
One thing to look at
He’s played for one team that I would consider “high pressure” and that was the Mets. As stated earlier, his numbers stayed fairly consistent when playing in New York. So, that is a good sign.
He also played on two Seattle playoff teams under Lou.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I'm kind of hoping that Lou campaigns for him
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
I don't know...
I don’t think they get along.
by Damen Jackson on Nov 25, 2009 11:32 AM CST up reply actions
I don't think it was in that article specifically, but I do remember hearing him say something around those times about being heckled
It was ambiguous whether he was talking about heckling in general or not though. He didn’t go out and say that he wouldn’t sign with the team like Torii Hunter said at some point.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
He wouldn't..
He loves Chicago, seems very comfortable at Wrigley, and is quite fond of Lou.
by Damen Jackson on Nov 25, 2009 10:59 AM CST up reply actions
So Al, are you staying away from Byrd
mostly because you think Hendry would be sucked up into the vortex of a 3-year back-loaded deal?
Just win the next game...!
with a no trade clause
with a special hotel room deal
with a special ticket deal
with a contract escalator IF his name is mentioned in trade talks
You know, like everyone else on the team and some in AAA have.
at daver's request, Let's frontload this B**ch!
And because...
… I think his big year in 2009 might have been a fluke.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
It's ironic
in how different fans look at different players, because I look at Byrd’s #s and it’s the 2009 #s that scare me off. I’d much rather have the Marlon Byrd from 2008.
Is he traded yet?
Those numbers aren't THAT much better, are they?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
The OBP is significant
if the Cubs plan to bat him 1-2. The point is more about calling his 2009 a fluke, when his 2008 looks better to me.
Is he traded yet?
Didn't we already try this whole thing...
about signing a Texas OF? How that work out for either side, player or team?
That’s not true!!! WHY THE F*CK WOULD YOU SAY THAT YOU AHOLE!! Ok maybe your right but you gotta give a little something here for it to work. I don’t know what I’m going to do this is the worst thing I’ve ever read, this day could not get any worse. Fine, F*ck it, you’re right.
by Ditkavsworld
I think this would be more like when the Angels signed a Texas OF
Sounds like Byrd is a really good guy, I just don’t think he’s your starting CF on a championship-caliber team. I think Cameron could be.
"Enough foreplay- let's get crackin'"- Fred Garvin
Worked great for Texas...
the explosion happened in someone else’s house.
Al did a great job posting the two players' offensive numbers ....
but what about defense? Can someone let us know how they both rate defensively as centerfielders?
Harry Caray: Marshall is going back to LA to get cocaine for his injured foot.
Steve Stone: Harry, that’s Novocaine.
by Julio Zuleta's Voodoo on Nov 25, 2009 12:21 PM CST reply actions
I was wondering why defense was omitted since it's the impetus for shifting Dome to RF in the 1st place...
I prefer Dewan’s defensive metric over UZR (especially for outfielders). I tried to compare a similar number of innings played at CF:
Byrd: 2306.2 Innings: (0 plays, -1 runs)
Cameron: 2324.2 Innings: (17 plays, +10 runs)
(meaning, Cameron made 17 more plays than the average ML CF and saved a 10 runs for his team)
Byrd is really playing out of position at CF, much like Dome did last year…
And yet, Byrd has played far more career games in CF than at either RF or LF.
Not saying this is right, just making an observation.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Byrd is 'out of position' in light of his above average D at the corner OF positions...
But if he’s a team’s best option at CF, they could do a lot worse: Byrd has only cost the team one run over more than 2000 innings. Byrd would, in fact be an upgrade over Dome at CF (who cost the team 8 runs defensively last year). Since Cameron’s offense is very similar to Byrd’s, Cameron is a no brainer, even at the same price.
I'd go with Cameron
Why? He has history with Piniella, which matters to Piniella and would help Cameron overcome any racism-in-Chicago thoughts he may have. – TL
I'll go with that, as long as they BOTH only have one year in Chicago
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Nov 25, 2009 8:55 PM CST up reply actions
I like Cameron in center
but i’m not opposed to Dye in right either. I’d like to sign them both and make fukudome the fourth of or trade him.
You'd be the GM of a last-place team, then.
Fukudome is one of the best right fielders in the game, and if he can be selectively rested, his offensive contributions are useful — especially if Lou would hit him leadoff, where he belongs.
Jermaine Dye was the worst starting right fielder in the American League last year. He needs to be a DH somewhere.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al Yellon on Nov 25, 2009 12:55 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Dye
Dye’s numbers look bad because he sat a bunch at the end of the year after the Sox acquired Rios. I’m not saying I want him on the Cubs, but I strongly doubt that he was the worst starting RF in the AL last year — unless you’re ONLY talking defense.
Yes, I'm talking defense.
Clearly, Dye can still hit. But at this stage of his career, he’s a DH.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I could see a team signing him...
… as a DH, who plays part time at 1B.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al Yellon on Nov 25, 2009 3:41 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
His rate stats were pretty bad too
That has nothing to do with playing time
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
can we put the disclaimer that he's one of the best DEFENSIVE rightfielders in the game
because offensively, he’s sub par
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Nov 25, 2009 8:56 PM CST up reply actions
Marlon Byrd = Gary Matthews Jr.
Mediocre outfielder coming off of good season in a hitter’s paradise on the wrong side of 30. Not impressed. But someone will give him a boatload of money.
I think I speak for everyone here when I say, "Wait, what the hell are you talking about?"
the analogy kind of works
But I don’t think anyone will pay Byrd $50 million. What were the Angels thinking?
The White Sox just signed Andruw Jones
Is Kenny Williams trying to field a 2001 All-Star team?
I can't figure out Williams sometimes.
Rios and Jones in the same outfield? Or is he thinking Jones as DH? Either way, I think it’s a mistake.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I guess Andruw ...
is a cheap risk. But still.
Williams:
“This is an opportunity to add a power bat to the roster while improving our outfield depth,” Williams said. “With the addition of Andruw, Mark Kotsay and Omar Vizquel, we feel our bench is taking shape to be a strong asset heading into the 2010 season.”
pretty decent pop (0.246 ISO) off the bench for 500k IMO.
Should say,
Only by removing Jermaine Dye and Jim Thome from the roster can these three make a team younger.
at daver's request, Let's frontload this B**ch!
I don't hate the Jones signing...
That looks like a move that could work really well for them, especially at little over the league minimum. But calling the bench a strength might be a bit of a stretch.
by Damen Jackson on Nov 25, 2009 3:30 PM CST up reply actions
If you say so...
Me thinks you’re going to see guys like RIos, Jones, and Kotsay getting way too many at-bats, and it won’t be good.
by Damen Jackson on Nov 25, 2009 4:30 PM CST up reply actions
Not to mention Vizquel.
The Sox are going to have to have outstanding pitching to win anything in 2010.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Oh yeah...
forgot about him.
So now that Kenny was finally able to break up the Butt Brothers, he takes what should have been an exciting young team, and turns the clubhouse into an assisted living facility.
by Damen Jackson on Nov 25, 2009 4:59 PM CST up reply actions
Vizquel is there to mentor Alexi Ramirez
He did a good job of that with Elvis Andrus last season. And he can still be a good role player that can spell Ramirez and Beckham from time to time.
"Cubs will win 79 to 83 games." BLou (7/21/09)
seems to be the 2010 philosophy: pitching + defense.
ppl forget how anemic the 2005 club was offensively.
That team finished eight games ahead of its Pythagorean projection.
People who said they won by “Ozzie-ball” were dead wrong. The 2005 Sox finished in the middle of the pack in runs scored, but hit 200 homers.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I doubt they will have Flowers off the bench
for most of the year. He’s too valuable as a long term piece – either he starts or he’ll be in the minors (which is where I think he should be – he’s improved defensively, but still has work to do).
i think there could be a DH by committee approach
under which Flowers could see, say 150 ABs in 2010. ozzie is not afraid to play young guys with success in the minors.
If they keep Flowers in the bigs
I’d imagine he’d get more than 150 AB’s for the year. If they keep him, I’m guessing he’ll catch, DH, and play some first, allowing him to potentially get 300-400 AB’s on the season.
seems like a waste of a roster spot
Even if it’s a cheap one.
Jones
If he sucks… they cut him, no big deal. It’s a great signing because they have the money and Williams prefers guys with experience. Even though they can find more-productive or at least as-productive players for a minor-league deal, the previous reasons make it not a bad deal.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just North of Wrigley Field
by jameslcrockett on Nov 27, 2009 1:25 AM CST up reply actions
It's clear that Kenny Williams has little money to spend
Hence he is taking a low risk flyer on Andruw Jones in hopes he can be a competent complementary player for 162 games. All things being equal not a bad investment.
The Sox are a team to watch in my estimation. The front four of their starting rotation is as impressive as anybody in baseball, and that includes St. Louis. And as I’ve said before, pitching is KING.
Key to the Sox is Alex Rios morphing into a decent offensive producer and Carlos Quentin reverting to the form he showed as a rookie. Those two things happen and the Sox are going to be a team to watch in the American League.
"Cubs will win 79 to 83 games." BLou (7/21/09)
I wonder what you would have said if the Cubs had signed Jones and Vizquel.
Probably be railing about the Cubs turning into a retirement home.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I'd be extremely happy with Vizquel manning short stop in Wrigley
over our current starter. and Jones is the same age as Byrd, and younger than Cameron
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Nov 25, 2009 8:59 PM CST up reply actions
And neither Jones nor Vizquel can hit any more.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
yeah, dont want them missing the .250 mark
1 Aaron down, 1 to go
by jesus christos on Nov 26, 2009 12:17 PM CST up reply actions
really?
I’m no Theriot fan, but I think most would agree that, at this stage of their careers, Theriot is the better player. Whatever advantage Vizquel might have defensively isn’t as great as it seems, and it certainly isn’t enough, based on recent history, for me to dump Theriot for.
As for Jones vs. Cameron, jones may be younger, but it’s fairly clear that Mike Cameron has aged better than Jones. Jones isn’t much of a defensive player anymore.
Jones came with a 1 year, $500K price tag
its a no risk buy
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Nov 25, 2009 8:58 PM CST up reply actions
Al
I recently got an iPod, and have listened to some podcasts, but nobody who talks about the Cubs really gets it.. I’m sure I can speak for a lot of people around here when I say that it would be great if you did one. Does anybody here know how one is made?
Mac's come with a free software called garage band
In there you are able to make podcasts
"If I were playing third base and my mother were rounding third with the run that was going to beat us, I'd trip her. Oh, I'd pick her up and brush her off and say, 'Sorry, Mom,' but nobody beats me." ~ Leo Durocher
I have thought about podcasting...
… it’s kind of timeconsuming, though. Might do something sometime in the future.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Just please don't go all Bill Simmons...
… and give up writing for the podcasts. Yuck.
Dum spiro spero…
Follow me on twitter or else: @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Nov 25, 2009 8:57 PM CST up reply actions
What about
trying to get Jordan Shaefer (Spelling??) from the Braves. There has been rumor that they might shop him if they sign Byrd. I would much rather give CF to a younger, more upside player, who could become the next Grady Sizemore, then a player who may be mediocre at best. He also could be the next Pie, but if the Braves are willing to move him, and the price is right, then I say we got for it and see how he does.
Worst case, and that’s providing the price is right, we platoon him in CF with KF until he is completely ready, or until the Indians can’t afford Grady anymore.
The Atlanta Braves very rarely make a mistake with their top young talent
If they would even begin to entertain trading Jordan Shaefer then that speaks volumes on how much his stock has fallen. The Braves don’t make mistakes in assessing young talent within their organization. They just don’t.
"Cubs will win 79 to 83 games." BLou (7/21/09)
I would normally agree
but this is a new braves ownership, and a new GM, they may make a mistake here and there, and I’m certain he would be tons cheaper than Byrd or Cameron, and more upside.
I lived in Atlanta during the transition, and the new ownership and even management doesn’t seem as sharp, or as good of a judge of talent as the old guard.
IMHO, I think its worth a look if its not going to cost the farm.
um ...
no team is perfect. Suggesting that is foolish. Years back, the Braves had a decision on keeping Adam Wainwright or another pitcher (I want to say Marquis). They chose wrong there. As DGU notes, Feliz and Andrus look to be two exciting young assets, and let’s not forget about Matt Harrison from that deal.
The Braves have been very good for awhile, but this idea that the Braves are perfect is flawed. It reminds me of the idea that floated for awhile that the A’s system was always good (the A’s system went through a deep lull before the trades of a couple years ago). When you factor in the big FO changes of recent years (new GM, new scouting director with Roy Clark gone), and I think, for me, it’s a wait and see period on how good the Braves are in regards to making decisions on youn talent.
As for Schafer, for the right price, I’d take the chance if he was available. That said, with Brett Jackson potentially hitting AA at some point, with Hak-ju Lee as a potential thought to move to CF, I wouldn’t go all out to get him.
Thats exactly my point
Having lived in Atlanta and gone to the games many times, I was able to see him play when he was called up. Albeit limited time, he flashed some skills. Moderate plate discipline, and good CF defense. If the Braves DO sign Byrd as has been rumored, then they will shop JS. If we can get him for a decent price, its worht a shot, either way, depending on what teh Braves want in return, he would be tons cheaper than Byrd or Cameron.
As for Brett Jackson, and forgive me if I am wrong, but isn’t he projected as a corner OFer in the bigs due to his stocky size and medium range?
Heavens to mergatroid
I’m dumbfounded. If this offseason is all about dumping Milton (not going to happen unless Hendry swallows 90% of his $20 million), Sam Friggin Fuld, Chad Friggin Tracy and Mike “the Hack” Cameron ?!?!?
The Cubs have core issues to address if there is ANY hope of being competitive in 2010. Yet BCB has devolved into a forum for talking about ancient and/or fringe free agent flotsam.
"Cubs will win 79 to 83 games." BLou (7/21/09)
So, BCB has gone from a pornography site to a "forum for talking about ancient and/or fringe free agent flotsam"?
Keep going, I can hardly wait to see what you’ll call this website next.
"I still believe, in spite of everything, that people are truly good at heart."
-Anne Frank-
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Nov 25, 2009 11:27 PM CST up reply actions
don't forget the drool monkeys and doorknobs...
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
I always wondered how mergatroid was spelled.............I
I thought Soriano was the guess hitting hack?
GO HAWKS!!!!!!! DO NOT LOOK MORE THAN A WEEK AHEAD!
Adding Cameron would be doubling up on fastball guessing hacks
I’m sorry , but Mike Cameron is 137 years old and prone to long slumps and lots of strikeouts. This Cub team already is polluted with too much of that type commodity.
We are not a Mike Cameron and Chad Tracy away from post-season glory folks. NOT by a longshot.
"Cubs will win 79 to 83 games." BLou (7/21/09)
So what do we need?
Just asking because I like to hear the optimistic outlook, the pessimistic outlook, and everything in between.
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004
You can't ask BLou for any realistic answers
He does not have any. He hates Hendry and roughly 20 of the 25 players on the roster. He admits the Cubs will not be making any huge increase in payroll but if you make any suggestions on players who might improve the team , he can only say they are worthless and the Cubs can’t win with or without them. I am waiting for Blou to explain how the Cubs can trade and replace Soriano, Bradley Soto, Dome, Z, Dempster, Miles, Fuld, Fontenot, Lee etc. Off the top of my head I think Lilly is the only player I remember him not attacking as being worthless, overpaid, past his prime, overrated, a flash in the pan, on PEDs etc. I await BLou’s actual plan for obtaining players he thinks will get the Cubs to a WS.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Nov 25, 2009 11:28 PM CST up reply actions 5 recs
. I am waiting for Blou to explain how the Cubs can trade and replace Soriano, Bradley Soto, Dome, Z, Dempster, Miles, Fuld, Fontenot, Lee
hes a realist, hell find a way
1 Aaron down, 1 to go
by jesus christos on Nov 26, 2009 1:42 AM CST up reply actions
Done.
"I still believe, in spite of everything, that people are truly good at heart."
-Anne Frank-
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Nov 26, 2009 9:52 AM CST up reply actions
Now we've just got to get my comment below to turn green.
"I still believe, in spite of everything, that people are truly good at heart."
-Anne Frank-
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Nov 26, 2009 9:59 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
You want a pessimistic outlook, just wait until the season starts again.
After every Cubs loss, BLou will rail against the Cubs for being the worst team he has ever seen the Cubs field. He complains about just about everything, calls us names (his favorite name for me is “Maple Syrup Man”), and wants us to accept his opinions as facts.
And yet, he is nowhere to be seen when the Cubs win.
"I still believe, in spite of everything, that people are truly good at heart."
-Anne Frank-
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Nov 25, 2009 11:32 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Agreed
Say what you want guys, BLou has a handle on what is necessary to turn this club around. They need much more than complimentary changes although Hendry would have to get way more creative than he’s ever been in order to do so. Tracy, Cameron, Byrd…those types of guys are not going to get it done.
Who needs a stinkin' tag line? What are they for anyway?
The point though is what is realistic
The Cubs aren’t trading Soriano, Zambrano, Lee and in all likelihood Fukudome. The expectation is that salary is going up only slightly.
Of course it would be nice to add a lot of big parts but realistically it isn’t happening. So rather than write-off 2010 before the season starts, people are trying to figure out what realistically can be done. Complementary players are what this off-season are likely to produce.
Correct.
Every one of the Debbie Downers would like the Cubs to pore over the free agent list and sign the top five players, no matter the cost or need.
That’s not realistic. I’m trying to be realistic.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
one of the reasons Hendry shouldn't have been retained
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Nov 25, 2009 9:02 PM CST up reply actions
If he has a handle on what is necessary to turn this club around...
…I wish he’d put said handle into writing, because all I’m seeing is a whole lot of complaining with very little feasible solutions.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Nov 28, 2009 1:41 PM CST up reply actions
Tell me if I'm crazy.
I definitely want to get Curtis Granderson as our CF / lead-off man. However, even if we get him, is it crazy to think that we still should re-sign Reed Johnson? If Granderson is our CF and Fukudome is in RF, that means two out of three regular outfielders are below average at best against lefties, which automatically creates a need for Johnson. In addition, Lou has already said he’s going to rest Soriano more next year, so even on days when we face righties, Reed will still probably get a lot of starts. If Reed wants to play the role of super-sub outfielder, I still would bet he plays at least 130 games for the Cubs, and a good chunk of them would be starts. Then we possibly have Sam Fuld as your 25th guy, as a defensive replacement / pinch runner / pinch hitter. If we don’t get Granderson, why not sign Reed as the starting center fielder? Hell, I take him in a heartbeat over Tracy, Cameron, Byrd, or anyone else mentioned here by Al, although I do agree that Tracy would be a good addition for the bench, Al. Reed is also a guy who seems to “get” playing for the Cubs, much like DeRosa, Wood, or Dempster. I say we’ve let too many guys like that get away recently.
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004
Health is the question with Johnson
If he can play semi-regularly, he could be a good RH sub for Fukudome, occasional bat off the bench, and all-around outfield fill-in. If his back keeps him on the DL for long stints, he won’t be able to contribute enough to justify what he wil cost.
Somewhere I read that Cameron was plan "D" for the Cubs
Sorry I can’t remember if it was a reputable site, but plan “D” for defense sounds good to me.
I’d be wary of Byrd, but wouldn’t be suprised if he is plan C as Hendry was trying to deal Murton for him a few years back.
I’ll forgive the Cameron whiffs for some leather in center. The Yankees were rumored to want Cameron from the Brewers last year, so I wouldn’t be suprised if they make an offer.
"I'd rather hit home runs you don't have to run as hard." -- Dave Kingman
by BucknerKongCardenal on Nov 25, 2009 8:01 PM CST reply actions
Assuming Granderson would be the "A" plan,
who would be the B plan?
Let's take a shot at Ankiel....
Given our budgetary constraints, why not take a shot on a player like Ankiel? With Rudy as the new hitting coach, he should be able to get the same numbers out of him that we’d pay for Byrd only at a substanially reduced price.
I’m hopeful that there is still room for improvement in the defensive area as he’s still learning the position but the numbers say he’s pretty terrible.
Realistically we’re not getting Cameron (I expect the Yankees to pick him up), so between Byrd and Ankiel, I’d prefer the cheaper solution and hope we can make a trade at the deadline in July to really upgrade the position.
And who would you platoon him with?
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Nov 28, 2009 1:42 PM CST up reply actions
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