MLB Hall Of Fame Ballot Announced - Cast Your Ballot
by Al Yellon on Nov 27, 2009 2:57 PM CST
in Chicago Cubs News
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PrintToday, the Baseball Hall of Fame announced its 2010 ballot, which contains 27 players. Any player getting votes on 75% of the ballots submitted will be admitted to the Hall in the Class of 2010. Here's the complete list:
Roberto Alomar, Kevin Appier, Harold Baines, Bert Blyleven, Ellis Burks, Andre Dawson, Andres Galarraga, Pat Hentgen, Mike Jackson, Eric Karros, Ray Lankford, Barry Larkin, Edgar Martinez, Don Mattingly, Fred McGriff, Mark McGwire, Jack Morris, Dale Murphy, Dave Parker, Tim Raines, Shane Reynolds, David Segui, Lee Smith, Alan Trammell, Robin Ventura, Todd Zeile.
The results of the BBWAA voting will be announced on January 6, but now, you can submit your own ballot. Unfortunately, the SBN polling system doesn't allow multiple votes on one poll, so the poll here will let you vote for the ONE player you would vote for if you had only ONE vote (rather than the 10 you'd get on the BBWAA ballot). In the comments, you can leave your entire list of who you'd vote for. Below the fold I'll reveal my own ballot.
My 2010 inductees to the Hall of Fame, if I had a ballot, would be: Andre Dawson, Bert Blyleven and Roberto Alomar. Tim Raines and Barry Larkin are close, but I think I'd leave them for future ballots.
It is a crime that Blyleven isn't in already. He is fifth on the all-time strikeout list, threw 60 shutouts (ninth all-time, and among his contemporaries, only Tom Seaver and Nolan Ryan threw more, and only one more, 61), and played on two World Series winners, the 1979 Pirates and 1987 Twins. His lack of 20-win seasons (only one) and the fact that he played in small markets works against him; if he'd have been a Yankee, he'd have been in long ago.
Dawson, I also believe should have been in long ago, and this time, with no "gimmes" among first-timers on the ballot, should get in. He got 67% of the vote last year and almost everyone who's gotten that much support in the past should get in.
Alomar had a decline in his last few years, otherwise he'd have gotten 3000 hits and been a lock (he finished with 2724). He was a 12-time All-Star and generally recognized at the best at his position (after Ryne Sandberg retired) among active players.
Barry Larkin suffered too many injuries and didn't have that many MVP-type seasons. In fact, he had a better year the year after he won his only MVP (1996) than the year he won it (1995). And Tim Raines, too, became mostly an ordinary player the last few years of his career, after being one of the best players in the game from 1981-85.
You may disagree. Cast your votes and post your comments!
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mark mcgwire voted for mark mcgwire
1 Aaron down, 1 to go
by jesus christos on Nov 27, 2009 3:05 PM CST up reply actions
Not I
I would sleep with Blou if it meant the Cubs would win a WS. by Doggie Stalker on Aug 22, 2009 4:11 PM EDT
Or Eric Karros
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Nov 27, 2009 3:19 PM CST up reply actions
ah 2 more voted for him!
1 Aaron down, 1 to go
by jesus christos on Nov 27, 2009 3:38 PM CST up reply actions
I would never commit such a travesty.
"I still believe, in spite of everything, that people are truly good at heart."
-Anne Frank-
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Nov 27, 2009 11:35 PM CST up reply actions
I am not Spartacus.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by daver on Nov 28, 2009 11:57 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Not a very Flashy list
Dawson should get in along with Blyleven. I highly doubt there are any 1st Ballot HOF’ers this year and I have my doubt any of the rest on this list ever get in. I wouldn’t be upset however, if Mattingly, Alomar, and Lee Smith were to get in.
I would sleep with Blou if it meant the Cubs would win a WS. by Doggie Stalker on Aug 22, 2009 4:11 PM EDT
Actually, more than any of the above, I would like to cast a write in Ballot for
Ronald Edward Santo
Well, I never heard it before, but it sounds uncommon nonsense.
- The Mock Turtle, Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll -
by eths on Nov 27, 2009 3:10 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
It never stops
Ron Santo isn’t in the Hall of Fame for a reason, and that reason is he wasn’t an exceptional player. People need to let it go.
"Cubs will win 79 to 83 games." BLou (7/21/09)
That may be what you think, I don't agree...
Well, I never heard it before, but it sounds uncommon nonsense.
- The Mock Turtle, Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll -
Santo ought to be in.
He’ll have to wait for the next Veterans Committee vote, whenever that is. That whole thing has been bungled beyond belief.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al Yellon on Nov 27, 2009 4:06 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Just don't even take the bait.
Some people like to swoop and poop.
Now only 12,859 on the "Cubs Season Tickets Waiting List"...
Name 10 third basemen that had better careers than Santo
I’ll even spot you:
Schmidt
Robinson
Traynor
Brett
So now name 6. And before you question the validity of position by position comparisons, if you’re not going to judge by that criteria, you might as well call it the Hall of Famous Pitchers, First Basemen and Outfielders.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Nov 27, 2009 4:35 PM CST up reply actions
Robinson above Santo is pretty arguable too.
We don’t really have defensive stats from back then to know how much better he was
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
Agreed
No way he comes up with 7 if we disallow Robinson; I don’t think he gets 6, either.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Nov 27, 2009 4:46 PM CST up reply actions
Well
Alex Rodriguez and Chipper Jones are two more obvious ones
But Santo belongs in the HOF
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
On Rodriguez
I guess it gets nebulous there. Better overall career – without a doubt. But he’s only been a third baseman for 6 seasons. Granted, he’ll get to 10 and beyond, most likely.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Nov 27, 2009 4:53 PM CST up reply actions
A-Rod could end up as one of the top 10 players of all time
He’s already at #22
http://www.baseballprojection.com/war/top500.htm
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
Sure, I don't doubt that
The only reason that I commented was the position switch. I suppose it’s fair to consider him both 3B and SS.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Nov 27, 2009 6:52 PM CST up reply actions
He'll end up with more games at 3b by the time his career is over
I don’t think he can play a credible SS anymore anyway
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
As perhaps the best defensive indicator of the time..........
………how is 16 compared to 5 Gold Gloves “arguable”? AL MVP, WS MVP, ASG MVP, all while appearing in more All Star games than Santo played seasons. Please.
Obviously Eddie Matthews is ahead of Santo, and if you figure Harmon Killebrew at 3B (where he won an MVP), then I’d say the Killer was superior. Wade Boggs. Chipper. Some striking similarities between Santo and Ken Boyer, but no one seems to clamor for Boyer being added to the HOF.
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
Santo was a far better player than Ken Boyer.
Killebrew played almost 800 career games at 3B, but only was a regular there for four years, so I wouldn’t consider him a third baseman — he was really more a first baseman. Killebrew is in the Hall for his bat, not his glove.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I think there are far too many 3B snubs by Cooperstown
I consider the exclusion of Ron Santo and Stan Hack are certainly big snubs when it comes to the position. You could make arguments for Al Rosen, Ken Boyer, Bob Elliott and Darrell Evans as well.
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
I dunno about Boyer and Elliott.
Darrell Evans played only about 60% of his career games at 3B; that may work against him, as may the .248 career BA.
Stan Hack actually got a fair amount of support not long after he retired for the Hall; the fact that he played only 10 seasons as a fulltime regular probably works against him.
Santo is one of the 5 or 6 best 3B in MLB history. To not have him in is ridiculous.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Ron Santo does merit Hall of Fame
It’s as simple as that. The man was on the ballot 15 friggin times and never came close to getting the necessary 75%. He’s also been up for consideration two times by the Veterans Committee, and again been rejected.
Ron Santo was a good player. But a great player? No. And to compare him to Brooks Robinson is the height of insanity. Fact is Santo NEVER played on a winning team safe for 1969, and even during that infamous year his performance nosedived in the second half. Santo also never got a single at bat in the post-season. Not a single one. Meanwhile Brooks has so much post-season hardware to go with his regular season accomplishments that its not even funny.
Santo was also widely despised during his playing days, a fact that cannot be ignored in his utter rejection by Hall voters.
The Hall isn’t about good ballplayers….the Hall is about great players. And Santo ain’t one of them. The voters and Santo’s peers have spoken very loudly on this point for nearly 20 years of him being Hall eligible.
"Cubs will win 79 to 83 games." BLou (7/21/09)
Does NOT merit HOF...sorry for error
"Cubs will win 79 to 83 games." BLou (7/21/09)
Santo never played on a winning team save for 1969?
The 1967, 1968, 1970, 1971 and 1972 Cubs would like to have a word with you.
Also, the entire ‘69 team performance nosedived in the 2nd half. That’s Durocher’s fault, not Santo’s.
“Widely despised” is a little over the top. Yes, Santo was disliked by some because of the heel-clicking, but it is clear to everyone — except, apparently, you — that he is one of the five or six best 3B in ML history. If he’d played 3 or 4 more years and hit 400 HR, we wouldn’t be having this discussion.
Finally, postseason? Well, sure, Santo would have gotten more recognition if he had played in the postseason. But you can’t blame him alone for his team’s failure to make it.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
And not to forget
that he played with diabetes, back in the days where the illness was not as treatable as it is today.
Well, I never heard it before, but it sounds uncommon nonsense.
- The Mock Turtle, Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll -
Come on
if you want to blame anyone for the Cubs never making the postseason while Santo was with the team, blame the owners, not Santo. It’s the hall of fame, not hall of players on great teams
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
So then Lonnie Smith should be in and Ernie Banks shouldn't, right?
Fact is Santo NEVER played on a winning team safe for 1969
Nice logic.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Nov 29, 2009 9:42 PM CST up reply actions
Not sure I follow.
Shouldn’t only the best players, irrespective of position, be granted entry into the Hall?
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
How do you gauge the best?
If it’s purely by offensive stats, how is Ozzie Smith deserving? You have to include positions to have comparisons – especially if you are going to include defense. If you just take the best hitters, the vast majority will be OF and 1B.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Nov 28, 2009 10:08 AM CST up reply actions
I see what you are saying, but............
……….I’m not sure that provides any greater foundation for Santo. The shortage of 3Bs in the HOF doesn’t mean he should be included.
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
Well, sure it does.
Why shouldn’t the best players at each position be granted entry? The shortage of 3B is a flaw in the system, not saying that 3B shouldn’t be in.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I don't agree, Al.
Players are compared to those already in the hall AND those who are seeking entry. It is a “position neutral” review, best as I can tell, and those who make it are the best of their time, and possibly of all time.
Whether deserving 3Bs have bumped heads against other strong players in different positions at the time of voting or that they simply don’t stack up is open to debate, but I don’t think there is a need for “balance” on a position basis in the HOF.
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
We'll agree to disagree.
There’s no reason that 3B should be underrepresented. Not to say we need a “balance”, but there’s also no reason why, say, the top 10 3B of all-time shouldn’t be in.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
You don't make a bad argument
But I disagree. I do think that defense comes into play – which inherently necessitates a position criteria.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Nov 29, 2009 9:45 PM CST up reply actions
The shortage of those enshrined for play at 3B does not mean there weren't many great third basemen
This has just been a position where the BBWAA has really had problems evaluating. This is one area where I think Bill James and other sabermatricians have helped when it comes to evaluating certain players like Ron Santo (247 win shares, but had a handful of 30 win share seasons), Stan Hack (316 win shares), Bob Elliott (287 win shares) and Heinie Groh (287 win shares). Then you have guys like Darrell Evans with 363 win shares.
Evans played the majority of his career at third base (1,442 games) and a sizable chunk at first base (856 games). Like Al says, this no doubt hurt his case, but he’s one of those interesting snubs. We’re not looking at someone like Dick Allen who played most of his career at first, but also has a high win share total (342). You can pretty much go through snubs at every position. The argument for Santo is not the lack of players at 3B, though it has been one of the most glaring positions for snubs.
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
It's also been a problem for the VC as well
Look at most of the players I listed. All of them are condemned to VC purgatory.
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
*all the players I listed
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
I think Santo should probably be in
But your example is a rough one. I think Ozzie Smith was overrated and should NOT have been elected to the hall. He’s in there because of defense and backflips. Pbbfft.
"I'm not much of a chemistry guy. Chemistry to me is a pinch-hit double with the bases loaded." -Jim Frey
well, defense DOES matter
and Ozzie was arguably the best defensive SS of all time, a position that is known for defense
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
What about.....
Eddie Matthews (already in the Hall, but not mentioned above)?? Matt Wiiliams?
If I could pick more than one this year, I would elect Bert Blyleven, andAndre Dawson
by jaredprebish on Nov 28, 2009 10:57 AM CST up reply actions
They played 3B.
And had good careers. I don’t agree that they were better.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Nov 29, 2009 9:47 PM CST up reply actions
Robbie Alomar
My full ballot would be Robbie Alomar, Bert Blyleven and Andre Dawson.
Alomar was and is a douche, but he also was the greatest 2nd baseman the game of baseball ever saw. And yes, greater than Ryne Sandberg and Joe Morgan.
"Cubs will win 79 to 83 games." BLou (7/21/09)
And yes, greater than Ryne Sandberg and Joe Morgan.
joe morgan strongly disagrees
1 Aaron down, 1 to go
by jesus christos on Nov 27, 2009 3:13 PM CST up reply actions
Morgan was a great major league ballplayer....Alomar was better
"Cubs will win 79 to 83 games." BLou (7/21/09)
dont tell morgan that then...
1 Aaron down, 1 to go
by jesus christos on Nov 27, 2009 3:39 PM CST up reply actions
Joe Morgan would like to have a word with you.
Maybe he wants to meet you outside Wrigley Field.
"I still believe, in spite of everything, that people are truly good at heart."
-Anne Frank-
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Nov 27, 2009 11:36 PM CST up reply actions
Agree On Alomar
Alomar was the greatest 2B I’ve ever seen. Being objective, I give him a slight edge over Ryno. If Ryno is in the Hall, then Alomar should be, too. Alomar had a much higher career batting average and was also a better all-around player than Joe Morgan.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
It doesn't make sense to compare different eras
Different ballparks, improved medical knowledge, and so forth. Heck, let’s say it … PED’s have to be pondered for Robbie Alomar simply because he was in that era, amongst other reasons. Leaving all that aside, I would’ve voted Alomar. Is he better than Morgan? That’s a tougher call. Morgan has some statistical advantages, and both guys had a couple peak years (1993/1996/1999/2001 for Robbie, 1962 and 1972-1977 for Joe).
I don’t think it makes sense to compare eras, but gun to my head, I’d go with Joe Morgan had a longer period of dominance with his days in Cincinnati. That said, it’s close, and Robbie was certainly one of the elite players of his generation.
I feel fortunate to have seen many times what could be the best fielding MI combo of all time...
…in Vizquel and Alomar when they were both with the Indians (1999-2001), though I’m sure Zeke will disagree and tout Trammel and the other Sweet Lou… ;-)
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Vizquel and Alomar
You could be right about that being the best defensive MI combo of all time. I would mention the combination of Davey Johnson and Mark Belanger with the Orioles (1969-1971).
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
Mr. Hornsby would like to have a word with you.
And once that conversation is finished, Lajoie and Gehringer are waiting in the lobby.
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
This is BLou we're talking about.
Don’t try talking sense to him, it’s not worth it. He only thinks the players who he likes are good. He admits others “may” be good, but when arguments are presented that show how good those are, he disappears.
Don’t take the bait!
"I still believe, in spite of everything, that people are truly good at heart."
-Anne Frank-
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Nov 27, 2009 11:37 PM CST up reply actions
Dawson was a better player than Rice.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al Yellon on Nov 27, 2009 4:07 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Roberto Alomar, Bert Blyleven, Andre Dawson, Dale Murphy, Lee Smith, Alan Trammell
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Nov 27, 2009 3:20 PM CST reply actions
Just looking at the ballot poll as you have it listed (alphabetically)
With my one vote, I immediately clicked on Alomar, then almost as quickly, clicked on Blyleven. Of course, as I continued down the list, I then clicked on Dawson without hesitation – and that was that. My cursor hesitated a few times (Larkin, Mattingly, Martinez, McGwire and especially Raines and Smith) as I scanned the rest of the list but if I only had one vote, Dawson is the easy choice.
But If I had ten votes, Alomar, Blyleven and Dawson are no-brainers.
I’d also give strong consideration to Larkin, Morris, Raines and Smith. Of that group, Larkin & Morris are probably close but no cigar. I’d check the numbers again, especially for that era, but I think Raines would be a yes. As for Lee? I’d want to do some research and better understand the evolution of the closer and compare the numbers. But I think I’d eventually put a check next to Smith’s name as well.
As for McGwire – the jury (well, my jury of one) is still out. I’m inclined to vote him in, but I also want to see how all this steroids stuff shakes out. I don’t know that we’ll find out any more about Mac specifically, but I think there’s still much to be told over these next several years about the whole steroids era. Mac just came on the ballot, so there’s still plenty of time before a final thumbs up/down needs to be given.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
greeting from Iraq again
I would vote for the Hawk and Blyleven. Seems like this would be the year. Oh by the way however voted for Lankford could you send me whatever you are drinking.
Careful Son, They will break your heart. And then stomp on it. But I will be a Cubs fans until I die. Its your fault Harry!!!
Thank You
For your Sacrifice!! You should get an official Vote just for your service!!
I would sleep with Blou if it meant the Cubs would win a WS. by Doggie Stalker on Aug 22, 2009 4:11 PM EDT
your welcome
I joined this site during my last deployment in 2008. A season full of promise and to fall short. Well I hope this deployment brings back some of the magic of 2008 with better results in the playoffs.
Careful Son, They will break your heart. And then stomp on it. But I will be a Cubs fans until I die. Its your fault Harry!!!
by deployedcubfan on Nov 27, 2009 5:22 PM CST up reply actions
I echo the thanks
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Nov 27, 2009 6:53 PM CST up reply actions
also esp in the sprit of the sea
"When I was younger, I could remember anything, whether it had happened or not." --Mark Twain
by cooliogirl47 on Nov 27, 2009 8:06 PM CST up reply actions
oops, posted too early
thank you from my family in the spirit of the season…..and a safe return
"When I was younger, I could remember anything, whether it had happened or not." --Mark Twain
by cooliogirl47 on Nov 27, 2009 8:10 PM CST up reply actions
Hawk for the Hall 2010!!!
In my opinion, I would vote for these guys… Andre Dawson, Bert Blyleven, and Tim Raines.
I’d vote Roberto Alomar in… but not first ballot.
Who voted for Pat Hentgen?
I mean, seriously. I’d have appreciated it if people took this even sort of seriously.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Pat Hentgen...
Must have been after my time… I really don’t know who he is or anything about him.
BTW, my three votes would be:
1) Andre Dawson (I voted for Andre above)
2) Bert Blyleven
3) Don Mattingly
But see my prior post…
Well, I never heard it before, but it sounds uncommon nonsense.
- The Mock Turtle, Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll -
Agreed on Mattingly
He was a great player from 1984-1987, but he simply didn’t have enough HOF-caliber seasons.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
Pat Hentgen was in that 70's sitcom, "One Day at a Time" with Mackenzie Phillips and Valerie Bertanelli...
You remember, the randy repair letch…
Now only 12,859 on the "Cubs Season Tickets Waiting List"...
I think you mean this guy.
http://www.nndb.com/people/261/000063072/
OK I don't know shit about basketball.
by SoulEater7 on Nov. 5, 2009 9:51 PM CST
David Segui.........
………has a pair of votes, Al, making such decisions the most perplexing of the bunch.
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
Ray Lankford
I am not sure which is more disturbing.
Careful Son, They will break your heart. And then stomp on it. But I will be a Cubs fans until I die. Its your fault Harry!!!
by deployedcubfan on Nov 27, 2009 7:17 PM CST up reply actions
It's not like Ray Ray...........
………had a HOF career, but he was a much better player than David Segui.
The fact that both of these guys have votes and The Cobra, Dave Parker, does not, is pretty pathetic (not that I’m advocating Parker for the HOF).
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
If I had three votes
I would vote for Tim Raines, Tim Raines, and Tim Raines. He’s the second greatest leadoff hitter in baseball history, his problems stem from the fact that he played at the same time as the greatest leadoff hitter in history (Henderson). Not to mention that he played in Montreal (see also Dawson). He’s a much more complete player than Dawson ever was
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
I considered Raines
And I can see a pretty decent case for including him.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Nov 27, 2009 4:49 PM CST up reply actions
I was just coming to post something similar...
Tim Raines is incredibly underrated by many, many people.
And Al… what the hell is the Hawk doing in an Expos uniform in that picture? Of all the great pics of him in Cubbie blue, you choose that one?! That’s a crime!
by kanderber on Nov 27, 2009 5:00 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
That's the only AP photo I have available for him.
I’m trying to limit front-page photos to the AP photos we have at SBN, plus others I have permission to post.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Blyleven, Martinez, Raines, Dawson
I voted for Edgar Martinez. He’s not going to make it, because he played in Seattle, got started too late for some of the counting numbers because his manager was a putz, and spent a majority of his career at DH. But if I want one batter at the plate with a man on 2B, and my choices are Dawson, Raines, or Edgar… it’s Edgar hands down. The man could just rake.
I can’t vote for Larkin and Alomar until Alan Trammell is admitted. Larkin just missed way too many games. Alomar… he’s on the border to me, and I wouldn’t be upset if he was voted in.
And Dawson is just on the other side of the border. He’s in because of the playing surface in Montreal and what it did to his career as a CF. If he plays CF another 4-5 years before moving to RF, he’s a lock.
It's a simple question, Doctor: would you eat the moon if it were made of ribs??
Andre Dawson has been one of those strange omissions
He drove in a lot of runs, but the guy didn’t take a lot of walks. He has one of those numbers that voters like (over 1,500 RBI). Dawson has the awards, but one of them is seen to be a bit undeserving (1987 NL MVP) by a lot of modern voters, so that didn’t help his argument. Dawson does have 340 career win shares, which is a major point in his favor. He’s on the upper end of that 300-350 win shares category, which helps me ignore the low OBP criticism of Dawson, which ultimately drives down his OPS+ to a moderate 119. Dawson has one of those situations where he is unfortunately underrated.
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
Right.
Too many anti-Dawson people focus on the OBP. Reminder: this is not the Hall of OBP. Dawson’s defense and baserunning speed (at least until his knees gave out) put him over the top.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
There's also the fact that I can name Hall of Famers with worse OBP
That said, Dawson’s value was in his glove, base running and the RBI threat. His win shares total ultimately reflects that. As a player who played most of his career before the steroid era, his final counting totals should have been enough to put him over the edge.
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
This was tougher than I thought.
I too, was ready to click on Dawson and Blyleven.
But I saw a lot more of Jack Morris pitching over the years. Yes, there is a slight Tigers bias, but I believe the total body of his work warrants inclusion – and his 10 inning shutout win in game 7 of the WS (for the Twins over the Braves, no less) tips the scale for me. I cast my one vote for Jack Morris.
And Santo most certainly DOES deserve to be in the HOF, BLou. But just as I am, you too are entitled to your opinion. I just disagree with you.
May I have more votes, please?
Now only 12,859 on the "Cubs Season Tickets Waiting List"...
I have never been sold on Jack Morris
Pure counting numbers outside his career wins total don’t help his case. His career 3.90 ERA is stacked next to his 105 ERA+. He had a 21 win season in 1992, but so what? His ERA that season was 4.04 and he had an even more horrid 102 ERA+. His career win shares total is 225. If I were to let Morris in, I’d have to be convinced that not letting Tommy John in was a mistake.
Based on a pure comparison to Tommy John, I think John wins hands down. John not only outwon Morris, but his 3.34 ERA and 110 ERA+ are both better than what Morris put up over the length of his career. John also recorded more shutouts (46 for John vs. 28 for Morris). And guess what? He has more win shares (289) than Morris.
Jack Morris did have his momentum of baseball immortality in Game 7 of the 1991 World Series, but it in no way impacts how I think of Morris. When I have to compare Jack Morris to Tommy John to make a point, it shows what I think about his candidacy. Much like Tommy John, Ron Guidry and Jim Kaat, I’d slip Morris into the Hall of Very Good. I’m a large hall type of guy, so this is saying something.
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
Well, I DID say I have a slight bias...
I think several of the players listed would get my vote. But I had to pick one and it was a Jack Morris kind of day…
Now only 12,859 on the "Cubs Season Tickets Waiting List"...
My ballot
Here’s how I would vote with 10 votes ( full ten):
1) Roberto Alomar
2) Bert Blyleven
3) Andre Dawson
4) Barry Larkin
5) Edgar Martinez (best pure DH)
6) Fred McGriff
7) Mark McGwire
8) Bert Blyleven
9) Alan Trammell (severely underrated)
10) Tim Raines
Alomar was certainly one of the best at his position and had 375 win shares. Barry Larkin is another candidate with a high win shares total (347). Fred McGriff was a few numbers away from a magic number, but he has a solid win share total as well (326). Edgar Martinez has 305 win shares, but I think being a pure DH underrates his career value. Andre Dawson, Bert Blyleven, Alan Trammell and Dave Parker all have more than 300 win shares. McGwire is a good place with 342 win shares and ignoring the steroid controversy, his OPS+ solidly puts him in.
Tim Raines rounds out my ballot. He has a whopping 390 win shares (indicating that he is an elite player) and for other reasons than this, I think he has been one of the greatest snubs by the BBWAA. As a leadoff hitter, he was one of the best (Rickey was the best) and for lovers of traditional counting numbers, who wouldn’t have wanted a career .385 OBP player as your leadoff hitter? It’s my opinion that he lost opportunities to pad his career stats thanks to the 1981 and 1994 strikes. Those were crucial years for him when it comes to building his case, though 1981 was arguably more important because he might have walked away with the NL RoY Award had the strike not occurred in 1981.
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
Honorable Mentions
These five players didn’t make my cut:
1) Lee Smith: I rank him just outside when it comes to eligible players. By pure counting numbers, he looks good. I would have voted for him if there weren’t other significant holdovers.
2) Harold Baines: Even with 307 win shares, Baines simply doesn’t stack up due to the fact that he played RF and later DH’ed. Martinez simply outclasses Baines as a pure DH, but I’m of the opinion that Baines wouldn’t be a Cooperstown mistake.
3) Robin Ventura: He wouldn’t be the first person to play 3B to get snubbed (Santo, Hack, Rosen and Elliott can all claim this) and I’m afraid Ventura won’t see the 2011 ballot). He has 272 win shares, which is not bad, but it’s not terribly impressive either. Ventura’s argument is based on his Gold Gloves, but he didn’t have that stretch of dominance at his position that was impressive enough to warrant his inclusion on my ballot.
4) Ellis Burks: He’s not the first player I would think of voting for, but I think he’s going to get some votes. He started his career in CF and did not finish there, but let’s not start the Andre Dawson comparisons. Dawson was a better player. Burks comes in at 260 win shares, which is 80 less than Andre Dawson’s career total. I certainly wouldn’t support Burks, but I think his career is worth discussing.
5) Don Mattingly: There aren’t many bad things to say about Donnie Baseball, but it’s tough for me to understand why he continues to be on the ballot but Will Clark couldn’t even last a year. It’s a bit baffling because Will Clark was better than Mattingly (331 win shares vs. Mattingly’s 263 win shares, 137 OPS+ vs. Mattingly’s 127 OPS+).
As I said before, these guys get honorable mention in my book. They just didn’t make my cut for the ballot.
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
It's in no particular order
Much like I accidentally voted for Blyleven twice. Put Smitty on my list at #8 and it rounds it out.
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
I picked Dawson, like many here did.
Who in the name of all that is holy voted for Mark McGwire?
Also, here is something we can all agree with. I didn’t know Brett Favre had a say in Sunday’s Bears-Vikings game. I actually just posted this over at WCG, too.
GO BEARS!
"I still believe, in spite of everything, that people are truly good at heart."
-Anne Frank-
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Nov 27, 2009 11:40 PM CST reply actions
While I bring up Mark McGwire,
There are several other head-scratchers in that group.
"I still believe, in spite of everything, that people are truly good at heart."
-Anne Frank-
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Nov 27, 2009 11:41 PM CST up reply actions
I didn't vote in the poll
But for me, I don’t let accusations of PED’s influence my vote. Simply voting according to his impact on the game and his numbers, McGwire is solidly in for me. It’s not the most popular opinion, but it is what it is.
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
Maybe I'm missing something
but I thought the poll question was “If you had only ONE vote,” yet I keep reading people’s laundry lists of players. Isn’t the point of this whole exercise to choose and defend one player?
My vote went to Lee Smith, BTW. I consider him, Mariano Rivera, and Trevor Hoffman the Holy Trinity of MLB closers. Others on this list are also deserving, but if I had to pick only one, Lee’s my guy.
"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things." ~Winston Churchill
In the comments, you can leave your entire list of who you’d vote for. Below the fold I’ll reveal my own ballot.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Nov 28, 2009 8:24 AM CST up reply actions
Right.
The only reason I didn’t have people do multiple votes in the poll, which would have made it more realistic, is that the polling function we have here doesn’t permit it.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Blyleven
That’s why I went with him. As much as I support Dawson and Lee Smith, Blyleven has been waiting longer than those two. Those shutouts, strikeouts, and world championships in both leagues are hard to ignore from Blyleven.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
.....
"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things." ~Winston Churchill
Ah, well
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Nov 28, 2009 10:09 AM CST up reply actions
I went ahead and voted for Tim Raines
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
On the poll, that is
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
Tim Raines and Barry Larkin are close, but I think I’d leave them for future ballots.
Sorry, Al – but that’s what I don’t get. Either Raines and Larkin are Hall of Famers or they’re not. What does another year on the ballot have to do with it?
It’s this thought process among the traditional media and sportswriters that make this whole process ridiculous. Remember the guy who didn’t vote for Rickey Henderson last year?
Make it happen baby: Cubs, Jaguars, FSU, Jazz, Thrashers.
Check out my site: www.CamSportLive.com - just opened this week!
Yeah, I see your point.
I just don’t like having five guys go in, in a single year.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
MY GOD YOU'RE A BUNCH OF HOMERS
Bert is WAY more deserving than Andre. Jesus.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
Given that this is a Cubs site, that's not surprising.
I probably should have put up a poll asking who people would have voted for OTHER THAN Dawson. Note that Blyleven is second, and I’m pretty sure he would have been first by a wide margin if I had asked the question excluding Andre.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Does SBN let you do polls where people can vote for multiple items?
Or are you limited to single-vote radio button style polls?
That's the issue, and I mentioned it in the post.
The polling mechanism, at this time, only allows the single-vote radio button style polls.
I’ve put in a request for a multiple-vote poll. That would be perfect for something like this.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Dawson gets in this year simply because there really are no other strong candidates
They aren’t going to not have someone elected into the HoF this year. So I’m sure Blylevin or Dawson get in simply because someone needs to be elected this year
Wrigley Bound in the Summer of 2010
On second thought,
how is Blyleven not in the HoF now?? He has 287 wins, 3701 K’s, and a modest career ERA of 3.31, while only issuing 1322 walks. He’s a shoe in without a doubt. If he had played another season and won 13 games regardless of how many walks and runs he gave up, he would have been first ballot
Wrigley Bound in the Summer of 2010
Best player not in the HOF.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
Absolutely true.
As I mentioned, he is 5th on the all-time K list, and the 60 shutouts is the most impressive stat — among pitchers of his generation, only Nolan Ryan and Tom Seaver had more, and only ONE more (61).
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Blyleven
is the most deserving guy on that list. I never have figured out how he has not made it to this point. The guy had 16 seasons with 200 plus innings pitched, won 287 games and had a career 3.31 ERA. Hell he won 17 games at age 38. The ridiculous thing is if he had won 13 more games, he would have been an automatic induction his first time up. Also, out of 22 years in the league he spent maybe 5 or 6 of those with better than average teams.
I would also vote for Raines; excellent hitter, didn’t strike out much, had a little pop and of course a great base stealer. I’d probably give Larkin and Dawson my vote as well in that order.
I almost picked him
because his name always sounded so cool to me.
"Fasten those seatbelts"-Pat Hughes
My Ballot
Andre Dawson
Roberto Alomar
Don Mattingly
Edgar Martinez
Barry Larkin
Bert Blyleven
Randy Wells. A product of the Roy Halladay School of Pitching, located in Toronto, Canada. Possible relocation.
No particular order BTW
Randy Wells. A product of the Roy Halladay School of Pitching, located in Toronto, Canada. Possible relocation.
Mattingly?
Really? He had several peak value seasons, but his career was pretty short and he dropped off that peak very fast.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
he was a good player
and IMHO a tweener for HOF
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
He'll get in eventually.
Because of that NY on his hat and the “C” that went with it.
Randy Wells. A product of the Roy Halladay School of Pitching, located in Toronto, Canada. Possible relocation.
If Mattingly gets in, there is no justice for the BBWAA
They mishandled Will Clark, a better player than Mattingly, yet Mattingly still gets votes. One thing is for sure. Being a Yankee will get you votes, but it doesn’t guarantee election.
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
you are probably correct
funny thing about Donny Baseball
NYY won WS before him, stunk with him, won after he retired.
NYY won WS after her retired, won none with him as a coach, won again once he left as a coach
the curse of Donny Baseball???
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
my top 5
Andre Dawson
Barry Larkin
Bert Blyleven
Lee Smith
Tim Raines
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
I voted for McGwire.
And, truthfully, if I only had one vote it wouldn’t go to him. But I wanted to make sure that there would be some sort of discussion of his candidacy. Mark McGwire was really good. He had a career of decent length, with injuries only limiting him at the end of his career. I understand a lot of the arguments against him.
I also know that I don’t know what McGwire took or when, and I also know that I can’t quantify the effect that anything he may have taken had on his career. I’m just not comfortable passing that sort of judgment on something I can’t quantify. All I have is his career numbers, what I’ve read about him, and the few memories I have of him as a player and a Congressional witness. I respect anyone who says they wouldn’t vote for him, but I think if there were no questions about his use of banned substances there would also be no question about his Hall candidacy.
My ballot:
Blyleven, Alomar, Raines, Dawson, and McGwire (with Larkin just missing the cut).
http://www.fivetoolfans.com
10 full seasons played in the major leagues.
That’s really it. After that you stay on for 15 years, as long as you get at least 5% of the vote. If you get less than 5%, you drop off the list.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Typically, there's a 5 year waiting period after a player's last season before they're placed on the ballot, right?
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
C'mon Chicagoans!
What ever happened to voting often?
Blyleven
Dawson
Alomar
Rains
Larkin
Trammell
Morris — best pitcher of the 80’s?
Murphy — greatest Mormon player ever?
McGriff — the Blyleven of respect for batters
McGwire
Put Joe Jackson, Pete Rose, McGwire, Palmeiro, etc in the Hall just put them in a darkened room with no lights so no one can see their plaques. That way they are all in the Hall but no one will ever see them there. That’s a win-win, sportsfans.
"I'd rather hit home runs you don't have to run as hard." -- Dave Kingman
by BucknerKongCardenal on Nov 28, 2009 5:15 PM CST reply actions
by WAR, the top picks among position players would be
1) barry larkin
2) alan trammel
3) ron santo
4) tim raines
bert blyleven comes in at 13th in total value of all pitchers right ahead of christy mathewson and bob gibson. it’s bizarre that he hasn’t been inducted.
the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus
Robbie Alomar will be the only player voted in this year
My ballot would be Alomar, Blyleven and Dawson. But I doubt either Blyleven or Dawson come close to getting voted in, which is a dirty rotten shame.
"Cubs will win 79 to 83 games." BLou (7/21/09)
You'll be wrong again.
I think those three will get in this year. Dawson got over 67% of the vote last year — I don’t believe anyone has gotten that much and NOT eventually made it.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Gil Hodges
I forget his percentage, but he scored pretty high on the ballot. The exclusion of Hodges isn’t a big deal for me because he’s not exactly someone I’d be in a hurry to put in the Hall of Fame. Dawson’s exclusion joins the ranks of head scratchers like Dick Allen, Ron Santo, Joe Torre, Bill Dahlen and Sherry Magee.
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
I see Dawson having to wait several more years
Alomar will be the only guy voted in. Blyleven will once again get screwed over and Dawson will have to wait.
"Cubs will win 79 to 83 games." BLou (7/21/09)
A lot of qualified candidates...
…but I have to go with the best holdover on the ballot, and that’s Bert Blyleven. His resume is on par or better than many pitchers already in the Hall, yet he gets passed over every year. 287 wins (27th all-time), 3701 strikeouts (5th all-time), 3.31 ERA (Top 10 in 10 different seasons, Top 5 in 7), 60 shutouts (9th all-time).
Others I would give votes to: Roberto Alomar, Andre Dawson, Barry Larkin, and Tim Raines.
"I intend to live forever-- so far, so good." - Steven Wright
by Drunk Cubs Fan on Nov 29, 2009 11:25 AM CST reply actions
David Segui...
is up to 7 votes….wow….
100 years would have been nice, but 101 years still has a nice ring to it.
Even his vote tally is inflated.
As for the remainder, Larkin deserves to get in, however, I still believe Trammell is every bit as deserving and should go in before, or in the same year, as Larkin.
BR has Trammell and Larkin as batters most similar and fielding % as a SS are the same. They overlapped, but mostly played in different eras.
In the era of 1970 to 2000, only a few shortstops have complete or almost complete careers and stand out as all world when batting and fielding are contemplated during that period.
While Trammell and Larkin differ in some statistics, I view them as equals and both very deserving of enshrinement.
The argument of Hawk vs Rice is different as Rice shouldn’t be in and Hawk shouldn’t be in doubt.
at daver's request, Let's frontload this B**ch!
I wonder how much Blyleven's rants influence writers not to vote for him
Surely there are some less inclined to vote for a particular person if that person pretty much says the voting process is a bunch of crap.
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
??????
in the picture above it says that Dawson is throwing out a ceromonial 1st pitch for the Marlins/Rays game…..is that an indication if he does get into the HOF he’ll wear an Expo hat? say it aint so…..or is there another reason???
"When I was younger, I could remember anything, whether it had happened or not." --Mark Twain
oops.....Expo shirt...why???
"When I was younger, I could remember anything, whether it had happened or not." --Mark Twain
by cooliogirl47 on Nov 30, 2009 6:39 PM CST up reply actions
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