Being Patient is Hard
by Drom on Nov 27, 2009 10:26 PM CST
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With all the free agents out there, and great players that teams are trying to sell, its hard not to hope and pray that the Cubs make a move. I get on the internet just hoping to see a glimpse of some headline: Cubs trade for Halladay. But in reality, no body thinks thats going to happen. And in the long run, its prly for the best that it doesnt happen. As of right now the Cubs will be competitive again, Bradley is more than likely out of Chicago which gets rid of some cancer in the club house. And the reason the Cubs lost so many games last year was because it seemed like half the team would be in an offensive slump at one time. With how many GOOD prospects the Cubs have, theyre pretty much made for the next 10-15 years, dont blow it. Don't rush them to the big leagues, and DONT TRADE THEM. Because who knows, we might just end up with another Milton Bradley.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
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I agree with your general sentiment.
Taking a long-term approach is smart. You really ought to support your view, however.
You should think about how this sentence:
As of right now the Cubs will be competitive again, Bradley is more than likely out of Chicago which gets rid of some cancer in the club house.
affects this sentence:
And the reason the Cubs lost so many games last year was because it seemed like half the team would be in an offensive slump at one time.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Nov 27, 2009 11:19 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
Right.
Guys like Fontenot, Soriano and Soto.
Give it up, Drew. Bradley’s going to be gone, and I, for one, will be thrilled when this sad episode in Cubs history is over.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I see your MB point Al
but I have to ask, is there a need still for everyone to continue to poke at MB, which is the same exact thing Steve Stone did all summer long in his tweets (causing BCBers to snap about Stone doing so)?
There is always a chance he is back (very minimal at best sure), and the more people want to bash him, blame him for cancer, etc the worse the entire situation gets. It may be time to move on and move MB, but it is also time to stop including him at every chance with a negative slam against him (kinda like the lazy reporters who write about the curses).
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
I see your point, too.
I just hope Hendry can deal him soon, so we can move on.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
honestly all the bashing of MB
has made me back him more, since i feel a lot of people are bashing him since it is the “sexy” thing to do, and they cannot think of anything better to say. MB is not the anti Christ, and he is not the sole reason we failed in 2009.
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
You're right that he's not the sole reason for the Cubs' failure.
But bringing him back would be difficult, for reasons well-discussed here, and I was against the signing from way before it happened.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
only idiots think hes the sole reason the cubs were bad in 09
1 Aaron down, 1 to go
by jesus christos on Nov 28, 2009 3:47 PM CST up reply actions
Thank you sir.
Randy Wells. A product of the Roy Halladay School of Pitching, located in Toronto, Canada. Possible relocation.
I don't know, Al.
I’m getting a little edgy here. Buster Olney reported the other day that the Rays are NOT willing to negotiate on the money involved in a Burrell-for-Bradley deal. They’re apparently going with a “take it or leave it” approach. So what if Hendry won’t (or can’t) eat as much money as the Rays want him to? It kinda looks like Jimbo will have to engineer some crazy three-team deal, which lowers his odds for success even more. And, seriously, what other teams are left?
I’m not saying Bradley won’t be traded. I’m just saying…well…I’m getting a little nervous about this whole thing.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
At this point...
… I hope Hendry impresses on Tom Ricketts that he may have to eat more money than originally planned. IMO, it’s worth it.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
It's going to be a tough call.
And this brings me back to my original worry – that this whole Milton thing could put Hendry at odds with Ricketts from the get-go.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
Doubt it.
I suspect Ricketts knew all of the intrigues, because he clearly was going to be the owner when all this was going on. He likely knew he’d have to eat some money, and hopefully the lesson learned is for Hendry to do more due diligence.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I also believe Ricketts
understands the situation. Having Milton here for 2010 would be more than a circus. I am sure Ricketts doesn’t want his first season as Cub owner to be dominated by Milton Bradley headlines from Pitcher-catchers to opening day and beyond.
Maybe Ricketts will accept the fact that eating money will benefit the club more than having Milton on the team.
To me the bridges are burnt to the crisp, with Hendry and Milton both to blame.
I am with you Al, sooner he is gone the better this team becomes.
The bridges aren't just burned, they are nuked.
You’re right about the circus, and it would start on the first day of spring training. Ricketts has to know that.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Yeah, I would certainly agree...
…that Ricketts doesn’t want Milton mucking up his debut season as owner. But what if the Cubs can’t get the Rays to negotiate on the contract amount? And what if Hendry can’t work out a three-way deal? What’s the end-game here? Would Ricketts approve an outright release of Milton over bringing him back and dealing with the media/PR/fan nightmare of Bradley’s return?
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
I have a feeling he would.
The money spent would be well worth avoiding the PR headache.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Rickett's...
…will have to eventually give in and allow the Cubs to eat what is necessary to rid themselves of Bradley.
IMO, some of this delay is Ricketts sending a message to Hendry, that the days of trying to solve problems with the checkbook and short term thinking, is over.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
I don't see...
…the Cubs giving Bradley his outright release.
First of all, they don’t want to eat 21 million bucks. Secondly, the last thing they would want is for Bradley to end up with a division foe (after the Cubs paid him 21 million) and run the risk that he could go off on the Cubs.
They want to control where he goes, and they will just have to eat the majority of what he has left to make it happen.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
And I would think...
… this week is a likely time for it to happen, so Hendry can go to the winter meetings next week with that issue cleared up.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I would agree...
…and if this issue is still unresolved by the end of the winter meetings, than it would be time to conclude that Ricketts simply is putting up a brick wall in regards to what he will eat.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
You don't think he'll try to clear it up during the winter meetings?
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
If it's not cleared up by then, sure.
But I’m guessing he’s working hard to do it this week.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
As Wreckard said
Baseball players are highly specialized workers, who get paid a ton of money. If Bradley truly burned all bridges and every teammate hates him, then just tell everyone not to talk to him. It’s not like his presence is a distraction, just his actions.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 2, 2009 12:14 AM CST up reply actions
Baseball clubhouses and teamwork don't work that way.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I don't know any business that does
It continues to amaze me that people think the amount of money someone makes gives them immunity to human conditions like illness and emotion.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Dec 2, 2009 6:52 AM CST up reply actions
I'm not saying it does
I’m saying that if they are being paid, in some cases, 10-15 million dollars a year to play a game, they should be able to handle some adversity.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 2, 2009 10:36 AM CST up reply actions
Adversity, sure.
But you’d also like to feel good about coming to work every day and not have to deal with a co-worker who is disruptive to the workplace.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
So just don't deal with him
Nobody says you have to be around the guy. If the team ignores him and doesn’t feed his crap, and simply goes about there business, I don’t see why their performance would suffer.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 2, 2009 11:00 AM CST up reply actions
I don't think it causes poor play
But like the piece on Baker theorized, I think that it can prolong a rough stretch. I doubt any player would admit that – even to themselves. And a good attitude doesn’t ensure winning, nor does a bad attitude ensure losing – but they contribute.
MB is not why the Cubs failed, but not addressing a divisive issue is not a good organizational strategy.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Dec 2, 2009 11:18 AM CST up reply actions
I don't think you understand how a baseball team clubhouse works.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I hope there's more than one lesson to be learned there
After the signing, the Milton situation wasn’t exactly handled well by Pinella, Hendry, or the organization as a whole. Nobody seemed interested in trying to defuse the ticking time bomb, and instead waited for it to blow.
We may have another MB type on our hands in the future (even with more due diligence from the GM) and I hope we handle the situation better than we did this year.
How about this?
Say the Cubs can’t get Granderson. The Dodgers supposedly are looking for a fourth or fifth starter. So how about this for a three-way trade:
Dodgers get: Kevin Millwood
Rangers get: Milton Bradley and some cash
Cubs get: Juan Pierre
Juan Pierre hit over .300 this past year and is usually good for at least that AVG and a good OBP. He also is fast, although his number of SB has declined the past few years. He’s also very difficult to strike out. I think he’d be fine as a lead-off man, if worse comes to worse.
The only thing is, that if we got someone like Pierre we’d need to get an offensive second baseman to create more thump in the line-up, or we’d need to get more offense in RF. If all else fails, I say try this three way trade and then sign Mark DeRosa to play 2B and to also play RF against lefties.
If you’re against Pierre, think about it this way. Wouldn’t you rather have Pierre than Bradley?
Juan Pierre...
… no, no, no, a thousand times no. He doesn’t have a good OBP — he almost never walks — and his season as a Cub ranks as the only 200-hit season in history where the hitter failed to hit .300.
He was a lousy leadoff man in 2006. He’d be worse in 2010. A big thumbs-down to this idea.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I'd rather
…have him than Bradley. We don’t have many options here. It’s either Pierre, Burrell, or someone else along that line. We have to pick the one that can help the team the most.
Of course, if they can get Castillo someway in a trade, then I’d rather do that. If they get Burrell, they’ll end up having to dump him to someone else and eat even more salary. I’m just trying to find something that helps.
I understand that, but...
… Juan Pierre wouldn’t help. Plus, he didn’t want to be here the year he was here.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Just out of curiousity...
…were you a Cubs fan in 2006? I always find it odd when people try to “sell” Juan Pierre as if many (most?) of us hadn’t watched him play a full season not too long ago.
Look, if you could make all the contract amounts even out, maybe — and that’s a huge maybe — this deal is worth considering. Perhaps the Cubs could live with Pierre in centerfield for a season if it meant a quick and easy way out of the Milton mess. Despite his legendary lack of a throwing arm, he has great career UZR numbers in centerfield – and apparently had a career defensive season when he was with the Cubs in 2006.
Of course, as Al points out, Pierre would likely be a major drag on the offense. As “great” as his 2009 season was at the plate, he still managed to get his wOBA only just above league average. Before that, it hadn’t been above league average since 2004 with the Marlins. And no way should he be in the lead-off spot.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
He's not even a good defender either
His pathetic are totally negates his range.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 2, 2009 12:16 AM CST up reply actions
So, in Juan Pierre's case...
…would you say his UZR numbers are a little misleading?
Now that I look a little closer, his per-season UZR ratings seem to fluctuate a lot. In some years in which he played 1,000+ innings in CF, he was very good (2002 with Colorado and, as mentioned, 2006 with the Cubs). But, in others, he was below average (‘04, ’05 with Marlins, ’07 with Dodgers). Yet his overall career UZR rating in centerfield (10176.1 innings) is a fantastic 28.5/5.5 UZR/UZR 150. Sometimes it’s hard to understand what I should be looking at.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
Well, you can't look at UZR from 6 years ago and assume that a player remains the same
Pierre’s range has deteriorated a lot, and his arm has gotten worse since then. If you look at his last 3 season defensively…
2007: -3.1 UZR/150 (in center)
2008: -3.4 UZR/150 (in left)
2009: 16.4 UZR/150 (in left)
He had a good year in 09, but it came in a very small sample, and based on his previous two years it looks like a fluke. According to the most recent UZR projections, Pierre projects to be a +2 run defender in left, which isn’t that great.
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0ApDc5PGsBzgVdGtLTkdpODJKVlRldjR1cjlIOVA1aFE&hl=en
by vivaelpujols on Dec 2, 2009 10:32 AM CST up reply actions
OK, thanks for the info.
By the way, why are you doing 2010 projections for Moises Alou? And Neifi Perez?!
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
How about...
…the Rangers get Milton Bradley and ALOT OF CASH?
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
I think your right...
…and I have said all along, the Cubs have NO bargaining power in trying to move Bradley. The initial flurry of interest reported by the press, was simply teams running to the trough and hoping to get Bradley for a song (with the Cubs paying at least 15 mil of what was left). Obviously, it is in the Cubs best interest to move Bradley ASAP, so they know where they stand for payroll. Since this hasn’t happened yet, it tells me Ricketts has held firm so far with the dollars he wants to spend.
I have been nervous about this thing from the day Bradley was suspended, because at that point, his value went through the floor and it wasn’t coming back. I still think he gets traded, but it will cost Ricketts more than he likes, and it will not get the Ricketts/Hendry relationship off to the start that Hendry would like.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
Stoney did it because he's still bitter
There’s a difference
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
hey drom
i agree with you on the most of what you wrote.we wont get halladay,or carl crawford(some one i wish we could get in a cubs uniform) but trading prospects is exactly what you do,I also like vitters or castro or our top pitching prospects,but you have to do these trades…if you could get halladay or crawford..I would do a three for one right now right now if it meant we get halladay either one(lol)or crawford. after all a prospect is…potential? potential to be an everyday guy?or a bench guy? you never know.
just gonna put it out there right now i think bradley will be back next year…sorry guys,but it will happen
by LightsOutVegas on Dec 2, 2009 6:41 PM CST up reply actions
The question is..
Would Crawford be too expensive? He would solve a ton of problems we have right now and would fit perfect. Though I love Doc, way too much to try and get him. I think Crawford would be somewhat less expensive, but still difficult to grab
yeah i see how those two sentences can colide. but i have to think that the reason some of the other players were having slumps was because of poor attitudes possibly brought on by MB and events going on around him.
no, no, no
Soriano was hurt, Soto was out of shape and Fontenot was overexposed. Doesn’t mean MB shouldn’t be gone. But he didn’t affect other players’ performance.
I agree with your post, overall.
I constantly check ESPN / MLBTR / here, hoping to see SOMETHING.
Halladay will be a bad trade for anyone, IMO. It’s my hope that if the Cubs give up key pieces of their present and future they should at least get someone that is going to stick around for awhile or is at least younger than 30 (i.e. Granderson or someone with some years left on their current contract).
Halladay would cost a boatload and the Jays have shown no sign of lightening their demand.
4 – 5 players + $20 million or more for 2 years of Doc = NO DEAL, Howie.
I hope the Cubs make (a) SMART move(s) soon.
"It's hard to win 97 games, it's hard to win the division. Our attitude is if you get in every year, you get in most of the time, sooner or later you are going to knock that door down." -- Jim Hendry
Please explain to me how trading for Halladay would be a bad move?
I’m sure you’d gladly go back and trade Felix Pie while he was still valuable.
Would you trade for Josh Johnson?
Randy Wells. A product of the Roy Halladay School of Pitching, located in Toronto, Canada. Possible relocation.
I explained it up there.
I just feel like if you are going to give up key pieces of your organization at least get someone younger / with more years left on his current deal.
Josh Johnson. Yes.
King Felix. Yes (if he were to be available)
"It's hard to win 97 games, it's hard to win the division. Our attitude is if you get in every year, you get in most of the time, sooner or later you are going to knock that door down." -- Jim Hendry
Trading for Halliday is bad
The Cubs would need to give up too much of their future, plus some of their key people on this year’s squad, for a guy who’d leave after this season for the Yankees’ monopoly money.
So then I guess I’ll hear, “Hey, we get a draft pick!” But really, are we going to get something that will replace Vitters, Cashner, and the other people we’d need to give up?
Also, do you think that Halliday is really the difference maker that would make us win this year? As I keep on saying on this site (and others), OFFENSE was the problem last year, NOT PITCHING.
Patience is a virtue.
Being patient with the Cubs is a necessity. Therefore Cubs fans are extremely virtuous.
So we have THAT going for us. Which is nice…
Now only 12,859 on the "Cubs Season Tickets Waiting List"...
and
total consciousness on our deathbeds.
"Those guys were the suckiest bunch of sucks that ever sucked" - Homer defines the Bears '09 season in less than 12 words.
True....
but I’d like to think I have enough virtue by this point. And I want the Cubs to win. Nothing wrong with being virtuous, but I’d like to be a virtuous winner.
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004
Eh. I was raised in a Parochial School environment.
You NEVER have enough virtue…
Now get to confession and pray for the Cubs!
Now only 12,859 on the "Cubs Season Tickets Waiting List"...
♫ The waiting is the hardest part ♪
♫Every day you see one more yard♫
♪You take it on faith, you take it to the heart♪
♪The waiting is the hardest part♪
♫The waiting is the hardest part♫
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Nov 28, 2009 8:37 AM CST reply actions
I'm hearing Carly Simon...
“Anticipation…” and now I’m seeing a ketchup bottle…
Now only 12,859 on the "Cubs Season Tickets Waiting List"...
Not a bad song
but for the most part Tom Petty sucks big time.
"Those guys were the suckiest bunch of sucks that ever sucked" - Homer defines the Bears '09 season in less than 12 words.
i think
hicks will be going long term. dont look for him to start blowing money ala steinbrenner. the cub team that FINALLY wins will be a young homegrown team i think. although winning next year would not break my heart. get it done lou.
HA! HA!
Is NOMAR subconsiously calling Tom Ricketts a hick?
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on Nov 30, 2009 9:26 AM CST up reply actions
Clearly, he has something against both the Shift key and people from Nebraska.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
He's talking about Tom Hicks, the Rangers owner.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
No, I think you were right
He said “cub team”
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Nov 30, 2009 1:09 PM CST up reply actions
Ah ha!
I hereby rescind my apology until further clarification. Your move, NOMAR.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
No, read it again.
He said “hicks will be going long term. dont look for him to start blowing money ala steinbrenner”. It’s probably in reference to the possibility of Bradley going to the Rangers.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
You're probably right.
But only NOMAR and his ghostly Shift key know for sure.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
I'm not convinced
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Nov 30, 2009 10:18 PM CST up reply actions
We'll just have to keep checking the bottom of every thread.
He’s bound to reply sometime.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
♫...little patience, mm yeah, ooh yeah, ♫
♫Need a little patience, yeah♫
♫Just a little patience, yeah♫
♫Some more pati… (ence, yeah)♫
♫I’ve been walking these streets at night ♫
♫Just trying to get it right (Need some patience, yeah)♫
♫It’s hard to see with so many around♫
♫You know I don’t like being stuck in a crowd (Could use some patience, yeah)♫
♫And the streets don’t change but maybe the name♫
♫I ain’t got time for the game♫
♫’Cause I need you (Patience, yeah)♫
♫Yeah, yeah well I need you♫
♫Oh, I need you (Take some patience)♫
♫Whoa, I need you (Just a little patience is all we need)♫
♫Ooh, this ti- me…. ♫
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Bradley
will be in a Cubs uniform because Ricketts won’t eat his entire salary (neither will another team).
"Those guys were the suckiest bunch of sucks that ever sucked" - Homer defines the Bears '09 season in less than 12 words.
And so two teams, the Cubs and someone else...
…. will split it somehow.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Al is right
Bradley will not be on this team next year. There is no way that we allow that distraction to mess up another season. Plus, Hendry knows he needs to fix things quick and Bradley is not the one to take us to the promised land.
Wrong philosophy - the Cubs should be gearing up to spend some money now and save later
This offseason will be the best talent market in at least a decade for a team willing to spend some money, which mainly means taking salary from other teams since the official free agent market is pretty weak. Several teams are in deep financial distress and several others are close enough that they will be looking to dump serious payroll. Time to break open the piggy bank and be a buyer of real, proven, top-tier Major League talent, not kinda-sorta-not-quite talent like Castillo.
I know Ricketts stated a budget limit and that the Cubs are close against it. Unless the family is really tapped out from buying the team, they should have management developing plan to acquire talent and a glide path to get to the budget target as some of the current contracts expire. If they don’t trust Hendry to do it, get a head start and fire him NOW (no patience, no waiting), because NOW is the time to be shopping – kind of like buying high quality stocks last spring. The Yankees will be buying this offseason – any team not preparing plans to keep up in some way is just planning for extended mediocrity.
As for Bradley, waive him, designate him for assignment, or put his feet in cement and dump him in Lake Michigan. But if he become the main trading focus of this offseason, a massive opportunity will have been lost.
The Yankees will be buying this offseason – any team not preparing plans to keep up in some way is just planning for extended mediocrity.
the yankees are always buying
1 Aaron down, 1 to go
by jesus christos on Dec 2, 2009 6:34 PM CST up reply actions
I'm not so sure about that
Last year, the Yankees were definitely in a buying mode – witness Sabathia, Burnett and Teixeira. But this year, I got a feeling they’re going to dial it back a bit. Probably only Holliday and Lackey. I know, I know – things are definitely tough all over…
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Yep - bu the deals have to be different this year
The pure $ FA market is pretty iffy. Lackey is the best pitcher and he is in decline and has been missing starts the past couple of years.
Buyers this year need prospects/inexpensive players to offer to teams doing salary dumps, like Detroit and Toronto. The Yankees don’t have much more coin in that department than other teams.
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