Did Cubs Err On Girardi?
ESPN piece about whether the Cubs made a mistake not signing Joe Girardi.
In my opinion, we might not have made the playoffs in 2007 and 2008 with him at the helm instead of Piniella, but we would be in a better place this season and beyond. Given that we didn't have any success in the playoffs, I'd probably prefer that alternate universe to our own.
over 2 years ago
madcow256
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Maybe Girardi Would Have Been Better
But the way that article is written is terrible. It subtly suggests that Girardi is THE reason the Yankees have won this year, and Piniella is THE reason the Cubs haven’t. Ridiculous.
Ridiculous is right.
Look at what the Yankees did in their first season under Girardi — missed the playoffs. That forced the Steinbrenners to spend untold amounts of money upgrading their starting pitching and signing Mark Teixeira. Just about anyone could have managed that team to a playoff spot this year.
Arguably, Girardi has cost the Yankees at least two games this postseason by overmanaging.
Plus, he looks terrible — far older than his 45 years. I hope his health is OK.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Gaunt Girardi
I’ve noticed Girardi doesn’t look so good. Appearances can be deceiving. Most people have health problems by packing on the pounds as they get older. Girardi seems to have the opposite problem. It could very well be much adieu about nothing.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
FWIW, Lou hasn't done anything for us in the playoffs worth celebrating either
May just be bad luck or bad timing, but I’d much rather we won series in more games than we should rather than win none at all. Last year’s Cubs team may have been another autopilot case (like the Yankees this year) where even Ned Yost could have made the playoffs. There’s obviously (and thankfully) no way to test that hypothesis though.
Don't know when that photo was taken...
… but this one is from last month. Looks a LOT older:
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
That photo is still too good. He looked terrible last night.
I was very surprised to hear he was 45. Thought he was at least 10 years older. I hope he’s alright.
"Fasten those seatbelts"-Pat Hughes
I agree...
…this is the type of stuff that really brings down the reputation of sports journalism.
No one could ever know how Girardi would have panned out instead of Lou, it’s impossible to determine. What I do know for sure is this; Piniella as a major part of the team turning it around mid-year 07, and also must have been doing a decent job to win 97 in 08. I do agree with those who say he did seem disinterested at times in 09, but the Cubs could do a hell of a lot worse than Piniella.
On Girardi, there are 30 different guys who could manage a team with the talent he has to a championship. At times, I think he has over managed, and very well may have put them in a spot with all his starters going on short rest, we’ll see.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
Water over the dam
Hey If the Cubs signed CC, Texiera, and AJ for 400 million I think Lou would of looked like a genius this year. Oh by the way Jeter, A-Rod, Cano and the best closer in the world doesn’t hurt either.
I don’t buy it. I like Girardi, he was my first choice for the Cubs job, it didn’t work out, thats the way it goes.
Girardi can enjoy his job in NY
I don’t think he is really that good a manager anyway. Horrible with a pitching staff, just look at what happened to all those arms in Florida after he left.
Just say no to players named Aaron on the Cubs.
Girardi v. Piniella
Before 2007, I favored Girardi over Piniella because Girardi was much younger. I was impressed with the way Lou managed in 2007 and 2008. With the way things have gone in 2009, it’s easy to say Girardi would have been the better choice. When push comes to shove, I like Lou better. I’m glad the Cubs didn’t hire Girardi in 2007 now. Lou has a more proven track record.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
Except Lou is almost definitely gone after next season
Hopefully the Cubs can come up with a new manager to replace Piniella that makes me look back at the Girardi non-signing without regret.
I just don't understand the Girardi love
OK, he was an ex-Cub but he didn’t impress me in Florida and now he has the most expensive team in the league. I haven’t see much that makes me think the Cubs missed the Bobby Cox or something.
Well, there is the fact that he nearly led a $21m team to the playoffs in 2006
Being able to nearly squeeze a playoff berth out of that team, as well as being able to lead the Yankees to the WS (who, despite their payroll, hadn’t been tearing it up in the playoffs lately, even with a great manager like Torre).
I’m not saying he’s the savior, but his arrow seems to be pointing up, unlike Lou. LWDYWMTD?
If Girardi automatically comes with the biggest free agents from last offseason
then yes the Cubs messed up.
If the Cubs also signed
Texeira, A-Rod, Sabathia, Burnett and traded for Jeter then yes we would be in a better place.
I was thinking this same thing last week
The answer I came up with is that it depends on who the next manager for the Cubs is and how it works out. If Sandberg becomes a great manager (assuming it’s Sandberg that gets the job) then the answer is no.
by jerry morales rules on Nov 3, 2009 9:29 AM CST reply actions
No, he's a lousy manager
blessed with the best team money can buy.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
The other night
With runners on 1st and 2nd, in the 7th inning, up by 2 and no one out, Giardi had Jeter try to lay down a sac bunt.
Even when Jeter had two strikes on him, the bunt call was still on.
Jeter struck out.
You’re telling me a manager who made that decision is a good manager?
Also this statement is patently ridiculous:
In my opinion, we might not have made the playoffs in 2007 and 2008 with him at the helm instead of Piniella, but we would be in a better place this season and beyond.
Let me just say this again becuase it's so ludicrous
Jeter struck out bunting. In the 7th inning. With no one out and a 2 run lead.
Couldn't agree more...
Girardi is not actually a good manager. The Yankees are winning not because of Girardi but because they have:
1. The FOUR highest paid players in the game
2. The top three free agents from last offseason
3. A hall-of-fame closer
4. Arguably the best 1B in the AL, and a top-10 MLB 1B
5. The best 3B in the AL, and arguably the top MLB 3B
6. Arguably the best offensive SS in the AL
7. One of the best offensive 2B in the AL
8. One of the best offensive LF in MLB
9. One of the best C in MLB
10. EIGHT regulars with an OPS of .850+ (are you kidding me?)
11. A Cy Young candidate
12. A very good #2
13. A good # 3 starter with worlds of postseason experience/success
In other words, it is the $200 million payroll that is leading this team to the World Series title – not Girardi. There’s no reason to believe that Girardi makes the team any better than it currently is. He may actually make the team worse with his crazy decisions.
Joe Torre had the majority of that for his last 7 seasons and still didn't win a title
And I consider him one of the better managers of late. What do you think the difference was? Of course, I am still rooting and believing the Phillies can pull off the comeback, so that would mean Girardi is coming up short much like Torre.
Why is it that their stocked $200m roster is the only reason they’re in the WS, but our #3 in MLB $140m roster can’t get us anywhere near finishing #3 on the season? Some of that is definitely Hendry’s fault, but why are we defending Pinella here?
I think getting to the playoffs makes a good manager
Once we’re in there, its a crapshoot and everyone knows it. All that matters is whose bat is the hottest at the moment and which pitcher is in the zone more.
Torre brought his team to the postseason almost every year and look at what he’s done for the Dodgers.
But if we’re going to talk about payrolls, we’re #3. But look at the caliber of players between Cubs and Yankees. It’s really a whole different level.
Torre had bad luck in the playoffs...
The Yankees were the best team (or among the 2-3 best teams) in baseball for most of this decade. And on top of that, they are also probably MORE talented now than ever before with Teixeira replacing Giambi and Sabathia replacing Clemens/Wang.
The difference is that (1) the Yankees’ $200 million payroll is 50% larger than ours, and (2) most of their payroll was healthy and productive this year. Coversely, we had a very large portion of our substantially smaller payroll either underperforming or injured for long periods of time (or both). Quite simply, the Yankees have WAY more talent on their roster than we have on ours.
As for Piniella, I’m not defending him. This was strictly about Girardi. I’m just saying that to suggest Girardi is the difference is overvaluing Girardi and undervaluing how great that team is.
Okay, I agree with a lot of what you guys are saying
Their team is definitely a lot more talented (and even $60m more expensive) than ours, and that helps a lot. For what we’re spending, we should still be ashamed of the fact that our team couldn’t compete down the stretch, injuries or not (every team deals with them to some level). That’s probably more Hendry’s fault than Lou’s, but we’re getting them both back next year so it doesn’t really matter how you want to split the blame.
As a fan, I’m frustrated that we’re left hoping Lou cares enough to give us another 2007 or 2008 type of managerial performance next year, and terrified that he’s going to be comfortable with a lazy attitude and sloppy play like he was this year. And when he’s gone in 2011 we’re back to a crapshoot for the next manager, although many people on BCB seem to think Sandberg will take us to the promised land. I’m skeptical – worried that our memories of him as a player will cloud our judgment about his ability to manage.
Jeter
bunted on his own, this was on WFAN, by Girardi himself on a radio interview with Mike Francesa
That's a question I ask myself every time I reply to you
In this case I was agreeing with you by citing an example of him being a lousy manager.
Feeling extra touchy today are we? Your response is hilariously overreactive even by your standards.
OK, knock it off, Worf.
No matter how you feel about anyone else here, that’s an inappropriate response on this site.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
That's absurd...
Every manager makes dumb decisions. And as you’ve already been told, that wasn’t Girardi’s doing… it was Jeter’s.
As you can see by the chronology I didn't know that when I made the post
So I’m not sure what your point is.
At any rate the more reckless and terrible decision, the one that may cost the Yankees the series in the unlikely event that they can’t win one more, was starting Burnett on short rest for no good reason. Now his rotation is messed up, and has to start Petite (who is terrible on short rest) and Sabathia on short rest for a 2nd start in a row.
Girardi is terrible
He likes to pretend he’s smarter than the average manager and is Mr. Hard Nose Baseball. It’s a load of hoey. Ask most good Yankee fans and they will tell you they’ve already had it with the guy. His most recent clusterf*ck of a decision to go with AJ Burnett on short rest has the distinct potential to hand the Phillies the 2009 World Series on a silver platter.
I would take Sweet Lou or Dusty Baker tens times out of ten over Girardi.
"Cubs will win 79 to 83 games." BLou (7/21/09)
When it looked like it was going to be either Lou or Girardi after 06
I prayed it was going to be Lou. Not because I was a big fan of his or anything, but because I really didn’t want Girardi. The guy had the highest payroll in baseball and the yankees missed the playoffs for the first time in 15 years. I thought his time with the Marlins was overhyped, as leading a team to a 78 win season isn’t all that amazing to me, even if the payroll was 14 million dollars worth of top prospects. Lastly, even though Loria is a jerk, I don’t recall him feeling the need to fire other managers after one year.
I'd also like to point out
While Girardi brought the team to the World Series this year, he was also the first manager in forever to not even take the Yankees to the playoffs.
Arguments can be made that Torre didn’t get the team in World Series from 2004-2007 and had the most embarrassing defeat ever in the playoffs.
Still as much as I think Girardi is a good manager, you could have group of monkees managing the Yankees this year and they’d have gotten as far as they did. They’re just too good and expensive.
To further your argument
While Girardi brought the team to the World Series this year, he was also the first manager in forever to not even take the Yankees to the playoffs.
Arguments can be made that Torre didn’t get the team in World Series from 2004-2007 and had the most embarrassing defeat ever in the playoffs.
Lou Piniella was the first manager to take the Cubs to the post-season in consecutive years since Frank Chance.
Still as much as I think Girardi is a good manager, you could have group of monkees managing the Yankees this year and they’d have gotten as far as they did. They’re just too good and expensive.
You got the bottom line exactly right, too. Gotta have the players.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Nov 3, 2009 1:33 PM CST up reply actions
There is no question...
…that some managers are better than others. With that said, HOF managers are made much more by the players they have over their career, than anything they do to get them to win.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
Giardi may have screwed the Yankees by starting Burnett on short rest
If Petite can’t win tomorrow night, who’s going to start Game 7? Now they’ll be stuck starting CC on short rest again.
Not to mention that he’s positively abused Rivera in the series. He’s handled the staff pretty poorly.
As a quasi-Yankee fan I can say with unequivocality hell no to Girardi
Joe Girardi is the shredder of pitching staffs. Funny how Dusty was ripped to shreds for over-taxing pitchers (which wasn’t true by the way) yet there are participants of this board who advocate for Girardi.
The Yankees will win the World Series in spite of Girardi, not because of him. His stupid move of starting AJ Burnett on short rest runs the risk of killing the Yankees chance of winning. Now Pettitte has to start on short rest too, something he has had terrible results with.
Girardi is a tool. And I think the bulk of the Yankees would agree with that.
"Cubs will win 79 to 83 games." BLou (7/21/09)
(which wasn’t true by the way)
im sure every single case of a pitchers arm falling off while under dusty is a complete coincidence
"hey
by jesus christos on Nov 3, 2009 6:29 PM CST up reply actions
So what would you have done, oh great baseball master??
Would you have started Gaudin who hasn’t pitched in forever?
Please enlighten us, oh wise and all knowing baseball god.
The problem wasn’t starting Burnett on short rest. The problem was with the game plan. For game 2, you had the Phillies and their coaches saying they were going to be patient and wait for AJ to get wild. So, the plan for the Yankees was for AJ to be aggressive early on, knowing that the plan of the Phillies was to be patient.
For game 5, the Yankees didn’t change their plan. They told him to be aggressive again. The Phillies figured this would be the case and told their hitters to look for good pitches early. Utley hit is homer on a first pitch. He almost never swings at first pitches.
Girardi is a good manager
Looking at what he did with the Marlins, it seems like he knows what he’s doing. That being said, it would take an idiot to make this Yankees team not be successful. Girardi didn’t have to do too much to allow them to win. I like the guy but Manager of the Year is a bit of a stretch. Give it to La Russa. The Cardinals were supposed to finish only above the Pirates and Astros
"If I were playing third base and my mother were rounding third with the run that was going to beat us, I'd trip her. Oh, I'd pick her up and brush her off and say, 'Sorry, Mom,' but nobody beats me." ~ Leo Durocher
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