Can Cub Fans Forgive Bartman?
Paul Sullivan talks about an upcoming ESPN "30 for 30" episode that disusses the Bartman episode. With Our Fearless Leader stating "there are no curses" and attempting to put the past behind us, is it time for Cub Nation to release some kind of formal statement of forgiveness?
I don't know if this is truly necessary but I have always felt really bad for the guy and I know there are others.
Thoughts?
16 days ago
JMG1984
59 comments
0 recs |
Comments
As I mentioned when this was posted a few weeks ago...
… I participated in a fan roundtable discussion that was filmed about two weeks ago for this project. I wasn’t going to at first, but the producers assured me this wasn’t going to be the typical mass media view of this.
I was able to get my points across regarding the incident and that it was blown out of proportion (and still is). We’ll see how much of it they use in the film.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Nov 4, 2009 2:51 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
So
Did you get to actually watch the episode?
"I hate to sound like a broken record, but I guess it's better than sounding like a broken mp3 player because then you would'nt hear anything." - Len Kasper
by JMG1984 on Nov 4, 2009 2:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Um...
…. let me explain. This film is in the process of being shot and edited. It won’t air till likely next summer on ESPN.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Nov 4, 2009 3:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
And most producers are reluctant to let people IN a documentary
see the finished product before it airs.
Now only 12,859 on the "Cubs Season Tickets Waiting List"...
by Zeke on Nov 4, 2009 5:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I have
Right after it happened, if an angry mob had wanted to hang him from the nearest street light, I would have gladly paid for the rope. However, I have to admire him for the way he stepped up the next day and issued a public apology. That was a very classy and courageous thing to do. A lot of people would have just run away and hid, and I probably would have been one of them in that situation. I hope he’s been able to find some peace in his life.
by Mike Vails Evil Twin on Nov 4, 2009 2:57 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
It would have been nice
If one of those other 10 fans would have stood up and said “hey I was trying to catch it too!”
"I hate to sound like a broken record, but I guess it's better than sounding like a broken mp3 player because then you would'nt hear anything." - Len Kasper
by JMG1984 on Nov 4, 2009 3:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The filming was done at the Abbey Pub.
The reason for that was that one of the co-owners of the Abbey Pub is the man you see in the gray sweatshirt in this photo. He said, “Bartman? That could have been me.”

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Nov 4, 2009 3:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I guess all that was lost
In the hoopla that followed, I’m looking forward to seeing it, as my recollections of the event are foggy at best.
"I hate to sound like a broken record, but I guess it's better than sounding like a broken mp3 player because then you would'nt hear anything." - Len Kasper
by JMG1984 on Nov 4, 2009 3:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
"gladly paid for the rope"?
You respect him for apologizing?
That’s so backwards. The only person deserving of an apology is Steve Bartman and even then it won’t ever change the fact that a bunch of people who take a game too seriously turned his life upside down.
The real question should be whether Bartman can ever forgive Cubs fans.
WOXY.com - The Future of Rock and Roll
by Gibbon Jockey on Nov 4, 2009 5:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, I do respect him for apologizing
Were you ready to apologize to him at the time? If so, you were probably about the only Cubs fan who was and I commend you for having the forbearance of Gandhi. Everyone else was extremely upset and not thinking rationally at the time. While I’m sure there are still people who would like to string him up, my impression is that he is no longer reviled by most fans.
by Mike Vails Evil Twin on Nov 4, 2009 6:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You're darn right I was ready to apologize to him at the time...
The way Bartman was treated in the hours and days following the incident was despicable. And for you to sit here and tell me that you appreciate the fact that he apologized to you misses the point completely. He owed you NOTHING. You and every other Cub fan that over-reacted at the time owed him the courtesy of at least dropping the matter. But that didn’t happen.
That fan’s life was overturned for nothing and here you are telling me that it wasn’t all that bad.
You can have your opinion and I’ll have mine, but the culmination of this discussion will be extremely disappointing if many cub fans back your position. Really, if this board and cub fans in general just brush off the Bartman fallout as something that happens then that’s just sad. He didn’t deserve what happened to him.
WOXY.com - The Future of Rock and Roll
by Gibbon Jockey on Nov 4, 2009 7:11 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I never blamed him in the first place....
Team’s up 3-1 with two of the next three at home, and lose. No, I’m not going to blame some guy for trying to catch a foul ball coming at him.
by Damen Jackson on Nov 4, 2009 3:35 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Exactly. If this play happens in the first inning, no one gives it a second's pause.
Steve Bartman had NOTHING to do with that loss. He was one of several people going for a foul ball, seated in an area that wasn’t at ground level. This wasn’t next to a dugout. He stood up and reached out like ANY ONE OF US would have for a baseball coming into the stands. It’s a natural reaction.
It would have been nice if one of those other 10 fans would have stood up and said: hey I was trying to catch it too!
I agree 100% That Bartman alone was singled out is inexcusable.
I was there. I saw it happen. The ugliness that ensued and that lost the game occurred BETWEEN the foul lines, not outside them.
Now only 12,859 on the "Cubs Season Tickets Waiting List"...
by Zeke on Nov 4, 2009 5:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I blame Alou
If he doesn’t throw the hissy fit, this is nothing more than a footnote in the first pennant since 1945.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Nov 4, 2009 7:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That certainly didn't help the situation.
Now only 12,859 on the "Cubs Season Tickets Waiting List"...
by Zeke on Nov 5, 2009 4:26 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
And I don't care what the Alou says
No way he makes that catch. He was a lousy outfielder.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Nov 5, 2009 2:50 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
This is the dumbest sack of crap.
If Al allowed me to swear I’d be pissing all over this idea.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
by dtpollitt on Nov 4, 2009 3:43 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Also...
for clarification purposes…this is part of ESPN’s 30 for 30 bit. The only one I’ve seen so far was the one about Gretzky’s trade to the Kings.
The topic for this one isn’t if the Cubs Fan’s can forgive Bartman…the topic is actually if Bartman can ever forgive Cubs fans/Chicago.
The ESPN page for it has it airing sometime in 2010.
by CubFan81 on Nov 4, 2009 3:52 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
The one on Ali-Holmes
was stunning.
I don’t know why they led with the Gretzky one, actually. It was the weakest of the ones I’ve seen so far. (The Bias one is on my TiVo, but haven’t gotten to it)
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Nov 5, 2009 2:51 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The USFL one was great
It was directed by Mike Tollin, who has tons of archival footage from the league’s heyday. The interviews with Donald Trump were fascinating, mostly for his overall denial that he was in any way responsible for the league’s demise. I would’ve watched it if it were twice as long.
"You know, you should be a lot more careful crossing the street like that, otherwise you could die - if that bothers you."
by gauchodirk on Nov 5, 2009 5:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah...
I mainly watched the Gretzky one because it was the first one and I knew absolutely nothing about that deal. The background info was interesting but the emotions that Gretzky showed at the press conference was even more so. I can’t think of many if any modern players (in any sport) who would react in a similar fashion to being traded.
The Bias one is also on my DVR but I missed the Ali-Holmes one. The ones I’m partially interested in coming up are the Iverson trial, Jordan’s baseball years, the one about Rugby in South Africa in ’95, the Bartman one, and the one on Steinbrenner and the Yankees.
The official page only list 26 of the 30 topics so I wonder what the last 4 are going to be.
by CubFan81 on Nov 5, 2009 5:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Ditto.
The best rated defensive SS in the league that year!
There are Cubs fans that say he wouldn’t have turned two even if he fielded that ball cleanly. Even if that was the case, getting one at second would have calmed everyone down a lot.
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
by cubswynn on Nov 4, 2009 4:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
And
why didn’t Dusty get off his butt and talk to Prior?
That’s all I will say.
"Fasten those seatbelts"-Pat Hughes
by katie casey on Nov 4, 2009 6:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
im interested to hear what the conversation in the cubs dugout sounded like
pitching coach: you want me to talk to him
dusty: nahh hell be fine
10 minutes later
dusty: well that didnt work out…
"hey
by jesus christos on Nov 4, 2009 6:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Plus
IIRC, when Prior came out of the game, Baker brought in Farnsworth, and had him intentionally walk the first batter. I never understood that. Why not have Prior issue the IBB? He was coming out of the game anyway. Instead, he brings in a guy that had control issues, and makes him throw 4 straight balls way out of the zone, then expects him to have control for the next batter. That has been something that always perplexed me.
Learn this line, and use it often- "Yes dear, you're right, I'm sorry" -Bob Brenly
by SotoRiot on Nov 5, 2009 11:26 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly....
in all the games I’ve watched since I think I’ve seen that happen only once after that, and that was in a regular season game!
by cooliogirl47 on Nov 5, 2009 11:42 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
People will be able to forgive and more importantly forget
Once the media does.
Had Alou caught the ball, we’d still be 4 outs away. And apparently it wasn’t meant to be and Cubs would have found another way to blow the game, AKA Alex Gonzalez.
by ak123 on Nov 4, 2009 5:00 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
I forgive him
Next?
"When you're going through hell, keep going." - Winston Churchill
by vonde6 on Nov 4, 2009 5:20 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
It Really Was Never Bartman's Fault
Over the years, since the event, I have joked often about Bartman as if he really was the cause of the Cubs collapse. I have argued with people time and time again about wheather Bartman actually reached out into the field of play and interfered with Alou’s ability to catch the ball. To this day there are some people who think the ball would have landed in the stands, which is not true, because I still have a photo clearly showing Bartman reaching out into the field of play. The umpires blew this call! This should have been fan interference and the batter should have been called out. It doesn’t matter or should not have mattered that Bartman was a Cub fan. Interference is interference, plain and simple. Even if the call that should have been made was not, the Cubs still failed to close it out. You can blame Gonzalez. You can blame any number of people. What about the next game? Did the Cubs not have another game to put it away? We focus too much on one incident, when a game consists of nine innings. The end of a game is no more or less relevant than the beginning of the game. The Cubs failed to make the playoffs this year not because of what they did in September, but what they didn’t do in April or May or June or July or August. Blaming Bartman is nonsense and I agree the Cubs should extend an apology to him and put this behind us, otherwise he just might put a “hex” on the Cubs like the Billy Goat and then the Cubs will not win the the World Series for another 100 years.
by Galtwho on Nov 4, 2009 6:23 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Is there anyone here who actually blames Bartman?
Because I don’t, and I’ve yet to see anyone do so in this thread.
by shoemile on Nov 4, 2009 10:06 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
No, but facts and truth never stand in the way of a lazy journalist...
Now only 12,859 on the "Cubs Season Tickets Waiting List"...
by Zeke on Nov 5, 2009 4:27 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Of course it wasn't his fault.
But the timing of the incident just places it in Cubs ‘lore’ only to be erased when the team wins (or at last participates) in a World Series.
It’s incredibly unfortunate for him. You just wonder why so much falls on him.
Ironically, on another note — the MLB Network has produced a piece about the “Heartbreak of the 1984 Padres.” If that isn’t ironic. (Our good buddy Matt Vasgergian provides the voice-over) At the time, the only heartbreak was centered in millions of Cubs fans in contrast to a few thousand Padres fans.
I did not and will not watch, but this production will most assuredly point out the players of that team who have died. (Eric Show, Alan Wiggins) Starter Dave Dravecky lost an arm to cancer. Tony Gwynn was snookered by his agent into bankruptcy. Steve Garvey got hisself in a whole heap o’ trouble with his wandering eye.
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Nov 4, 2009 11:10 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
I'm waitng for Tony Gwynn to show up on the Biggest Loser
Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living."
by DC Cubbie on Nov 4, 2009 11:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The Bartman incident altered the game
There can be no denying this. He quite literally lent a hand in changing the game, if only in tempers, slowing the game, and general sense of anger and dread that swept through the stadium faster than a deflating balloon. But it is the team who blew it (the game, not the balloon). Besides, even without a Bartman-incident they still had plenty of time to blow it in the 9th. This is the Cubs we are talking about.
For him to have his life threatened, have to go through all the hoopla, negative press, and post like this from jerks like myself splattered all over the internet, he should be given life-long season tickets by the Ricketts (just put him behind the screen so he can’t make the same natural reaction/mistake again). Maybe help reverse the curse, just on the wee bit o’ chance there is one. Gotta be karma points in there at the very least.
Free season tickets for life and onto the new era, GiT ’ER DONE, RICKETTS.
"I'd rather hit home runs you don't have to run as hard." -- Dave Kingman
by BucknerKongCardenal on Nov 4, 2009 11:35 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
He lent no hand in the game
The Cubs Imploded.
Why is this so hard to grasp? Alex Gonzalez boots at least an out and perhaps a DP. No pitching management. The Cubs folded in game 6. Yet….they could have won the next day with their “ace” on the mound.
It all seems so simple, yet here we are discussing a foul ball, that had it been actually caught would have been an amazing play, when the cubs had more than one chance to win the series.
I suppose I have higher expectations of people, but it amazes me that the Bartman incident is even considered an incident at all.
WOXY.com - The Future of Rock and Roll
by Gibbon Jockey on Nov 5, 2009 1:02 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The Cubs were up 3-1 in the series
with Zambrano, Prior and Wood scheduled to pitch the next three games (two of which wouldn’t have been needed had they won game 5 in Florida).
If neither of those 3 pitchers could get the job done, then what the hell does anyone have to pin on a lone Cub fan lucky enough to get a front row seat for a game? That this poor guy is still held up by the media as the symbol of the loser Cubs is pathetic.
Now only 12,859 on the "Cubs Season Tickets Waiting List"...
by Zeke on Nov 5, 2009 4:31 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Not only that, but game 1
Up 4-0 after 1 inning.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Nov 5, 2009 9:00 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah. Could have been a sweep. Grrrrrrrr.....
Now only 12,859 on the "Cubs Season Tickets Waiting List"...
by Zeke on Nov 5, 2009 10:45 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
If, if, if, if...
You know what? Screw the what if game. The Bartman incident happened. The Cubs imploded in that game. The Cubs couldn’t win Game 7. I’m sick and tired of playing the what if game with the Cubs. Just win a damned World Series in my lifetime.
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
by Ace Venom on Nov 5, 2009 2:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Calm down, Ace . . . the point we are making is
To blame Bartman and ignore the rest is naive. Or foolish. Or hatefull. Or just plain dopey.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Nov 5, 2009 3:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I certainly don't blame Steve Bartman
If those players were knuckleheads that let a guy catching a foul ball disrupt their rhythm, they really shouldn’t have been playing baseball in the first place.
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
by Ace Venom on Nov 5, 2009 3:25 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
No, I realize you aren't blaming him
What I’m getting at is, I’m not so much lamenting what could have been as I am in saying that people need to let the Bartman thing go.
By and large, Cubs fans did years ago – it’s the media and fans of other teams that won’t.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Nov 5, 2009 3:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Ever heard of a chain reaction?
That one moment leads to the next? The butterfly effect?
Are you saying that if that ball was ten rows into the stands everything would have happened the exact same way? Almost like it was destiny?
That’s what’s hard for me to grasp. Group think thought the world was flat at one point. Again, I am not blaming Bartman, but to pretend the moment didn’t exist or had no consequences I find odd.
And if I can’t refer to it as an incident, how ’bout E-10?
"I'd rather hit home runs you don't have to run as hard." -- Dave Kingman
by BucknerKongCardenal on Nov 9, 2009 12:20 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Would he even want season tickets for life?
Is he still a fan after all this? I like to think he is, but idk if I would be. If it happened to me I wonder if I’d ever be able to watch any baseball game ever again.
"Fasten those seatbelts"-Pat Hughes
by katie casey on Nov 5, 2009 8:14 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The blame game...
…everyone needed someone to blame, especially Dusty. He was sooo out-managed it was pathetic..IM(humble)O. I think the organization, the media and the fans NEED to do something (I dont know what) to right this wrong. This guys life has been upended over that play, I would say it was at least equivilant to a serious health issue in one’s life….that wont go away.
by cooliogirl47 on Nov 5, 2009 8:39 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Bartman
should hold a press conference and say:
“I am going to sell my hat, earphones, shirt, underwear and ticket stub on e-bay. I am going to hold autograph sessions. I will participate in reenactments of the play in every dirtbag community theater that pays me $10 and a Subway sandwich. I will offer to fight Moises Alou in Celebrity Boxing and pee on his feet.
“You idiots stole my life and I’m getting some back. Kill yourself if you don’t like it.”
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Nov 5, 2009 2:44 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Seems kind of "harsh"... ;)
Now only 12,859 on the "Cubs Season Tickets Waiting List"...
by Zeke on Nov 5, 2009 4:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah... I went over the top with the Subway sandwich
He should hold out for a pizza.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Nov 5, 2009 4:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Deep dish...
Now only 12,859 on the "Cubs Season Tickets Waiting List"...
by Zeke on Nov 5, 2009 4:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Fans have already forgiven Bartman.
The real question is, can the press forget Bartman?
I think the answer there is no. As long as there’s a lazy narrative to be created, that name will always come out.
by Wreckard on Nov 5, 2009 5:00 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Agreed.
That’s why I agreed to appear in this film — because I was able to make that exact point during the roundtable.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al on Nov 5, 2009 5:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'd love to think the media would move on, but the next time the Cubs get in the playoffs, they'll dig it all up again.
Lazy “journalists” love perpetuating the stereotypical story line. It requires less actual work on their part and the pay is the same.
Only the Cubs winning a WS title after having to wade chest deep in the media sewage will put an end to it. We haven’t seen video of the Red Sox in the playoffs with Bill Buckner’s error since the Sox won it all.
But I guarantee when the Cubs are a game away from the title, the video montage open to the WS game that night will include video and mention of “that play”…
I hate it when I’m right about this kind of crap, but after being in this business for 35 years, I know the landscape and human nature of my industry.
It’ll suck- until it doesn’t by winning it all….IN 2010!!!!!!!!!
Sigh, God I hope so…..
Now only 12,859 on the "Cubs Season Tickets Waiting List"...
by Zeke on Nov 6, 2009 4:41 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Blame the media?
What is this, a Milton Bradley press confrence?
Only way to get past this is to win a WS. Actually the media will probably be milking every last drop of the Bartman thing if the Cubs do win a WS. So the real only way to get past it is to win two WS.
Let’s step Mr. Cub up a notch…if we’re going play two let’s win two.
"I'd rather hit home runs you don't have to run as hard." -- Dave Kingman
by BucknerKongCardenal on Nov 8, 2009 11:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Nothing to forgive him for...
That loss was Dusty’s fault. Prior came out in the 8th with nothing – his slider had been breaking down before that but in the 8th it was absolutlely flat. If he had gotten ouit of that inning, it would have been pure dumb luck. Any manager with living brain cells comes out to get him as soon as one runner gets on – hit, walk, or passed ball on a swinging strike 3.
Leave him out and the Marlins were going to realize he had lost it, leading to BP. Which was why the Cubs really lost that game.
by ClarkFan on Nov 8, 2009 9:03 PM CST reply actions 0 recs


















