Cubs Decline Arbitration To Gregg, Johnson, Harden And Chad Fox
The headline tells most of the story; no arbitration offers to Kevin Gregg, Reed Johnson, Rich Harden and Chad Fox -- here are a few more details from cubs.com, including this final paragraph:
The Cubs are in the market for a center fielder and could still re-sign Johnson, but if they did offer arbitration, they ran the risk of him getting a significant raise.
For the right price, I'd definitely like to see Johnson returning. A lot depends, I suppose, on other moves made first.
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Absolute no on Chad Fox and Kevin Gregg
Harden I’ll miss. I’ll always remember that trade that brought him here with Gaudin. I wish we’d somehow kept on to Gallagher, but looks like he isn’t doing well anyway; that trade was in our favor, I’d say..
Wrigley Bound in the Summer of 2010
Gallagher
I remember A’s fans telling me that Geren got Gallagher hurt. There were some solid reports, I think, when he got healthy about his injury this year. He should be in line for a rotation spot in 2010 in San Diego.
good, always liked him
It should be easy for him to make that San Diego “rotation”
Wrigley Bound in the Summer of 2010
Soooo...clarinets, saxophones, oboes...what are we talkin' about here?
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Dec 1, 2009 3:12 PM CST up reply actions
Well, if you're looking for some Game 7 mojo, Willis should be what choo talkin' 'bout

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
I won't miss
Gregg! I wouldn’t mind having Reed back!
I would sleep with Blou if it meant the Cubs would win a WS. by Doggie Stalker on Aug 22, 2009 4:11 PM EDT
and
I’d bring Johnson back without a doubt. Sam Fuld is not a better back up for his value
Wrigley Bound in the Summer of 2010
So would I be oversimplifying to say...
…the Cubs are saving their cash for a FA centerfielder and their remaining arbitration-eligible players? Oh, and not really expecting much, if any, salary relief from Milton Bradley?
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Dec 1, 2009 3:11 PM CST reply actions
meh...the Bradley deal will go down as forever dooming this team
It was with that deal we weren’t able to resign Wood or keep DeRosa. Furthermore, it might make us lose both Harden and Johnson.
Wrigley Bound in the Summer of 2010
So you're saying the Bradley deal is making us lose our Harden?
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Dec 1, 2009 3:18 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
And our Wood, too.
And Johnson.
This is really scary.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al Yellon on Dec 1, 2009 3:19 PM CST up reply actions 5 recs
So, your saying that...
… the signing will go down as a real boner?
I think I speak for everyone here when I say, "Wait, what the hell are you talking about?"
Yeah. Or a boner killer.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Dec 1, 2009 3:36 PM CST up reply actions
we need to sign chien ming wang to keep things in order!
1 Aaron down, 1 to go
by jesus christos on Dec 1, 2009 4:18 PM CST up reply actions
Al
Pretty racy for you – rec’d.
As anyone who watches baseball games on TV knows, relief is right around the corner and will be ready when you are. In the event of a double entendre lasting over four hours…please call ballhawk in to make a remark.
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is." -- Yogi Berra
Mortals and Pestilence are upon us

Well, I never heard it before, but it sounds uncommon nonsense.
- The Mock Turtle, Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll -
well, I guess this thread will now grind to a halt...
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
What about the albatross that is Soriano?
Throw in Dome’s contract as well.
We're not scaremongering (nightmare of a season continues), this is really happening (Bears are more than done) - Radiohead
You hit the nail on the head daver...
I'm a truth teller, I'm a risk taker, I'm like Johnny Cash - I walk the line...
by Jimmyeatworld on Dec 1, 2009 3:14 PM CST up reply actions
Thanks. I like to keep things simple.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Dec 1, 2009 3:15 PM CST up reply actions
No Reed or Harden?
Just goes to show you that the Cubs are going to be cheapskates this offseason. I don’t want to hear about their money issues. Reed is the perfect teammate and plays his guts out. Maybe that’s why guys like him and Jake Fox never played and are on their way out. Great message to send to the rest of the guys!!!
Anyone know whatever happened to that whole
“let’s try Jake Fox at 2B” deal??
Wrigley Bound in the Summer of 2010
Lou's Doghouse
That’s what happened. That’s what you get when you play hard and try hard on this team I guess. Fans respect guys like Fox, who are courteous to the fans, sign autographs, and try their best every day. They are happy just to be playing the game and don’t take it for granted.
Did you see anyone booing Fontenot this year when he struggled? NO. That’s because everyone knows that he tries his best and that he was upset with his own struggles. He didn’t spit in the air, walk past the fans with his nose up, and then sit back to earn his huge salary.
What the Cubs don’t understand is that they’ll never win with selfish, ignorant players. They need to take advantage of guys who are there for the TEAM, and not THEMSELVES. It doesn’t matter how much money someone makes. If they suck, they should sit. Period.
I won’t hold my breath though. Not with this manager…
Huh?
The Jake Fox at 2B thing was supposed to be done in the winter leagues. Has nothing to do with Lou’s doghouse.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
My point is...
Did you ever see him get a chance? No, but you saw a second baseman (Bobby Scales) with no power and who couldn’t hit playing LF EVERY DAY with Fox rotting on the bench. The Cubs could have reached the postseason, but they chose to play the wrong players for some reason.
If you are a productive player who plays hard, and then someone gets hurt in a position that you play, there’s no excuse for you to sit for someone who is 1) playing out of position and 2) can’t hit. He must have been in someone’s doghouse, and I don’t know why.
Nobody still has really explained what got Jake in the doghouse.
Scales in LF made no sense and made Lou look stupid.
Jake's playing Winter Ball in the Domincan Republic.
But I’m not sure whether he’s playing second base. The one article I saw said he was in left field.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Dec 1, 2009 3:31 PM CST up reply actions
Um, there's still a chance RJ could be back.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Dec 1, 2009 3:23 PM CST up reply actions
One more thing
If they fail to offer arbitration to Harden or Johnson citing money issues, and then they go and waste money on someone like Marlon Byrd, then that’s all the evidence that we need that new Cubs management, from the front office (GM) to the field is needed.
These guys need to stop whining about their imaginary money issues and improve the mess that they’ve made.
But...but...doesn't the team need a centerfielder?
And I’m no CPA, but I’m pretty sure the Cubs money issues aren’t imaginary.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Dec 1, 2009 3:25 PM CST up reply actions
Got anyone in mind?
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Dec 1, 2009 3:35 PM CST up reply actions
scales fontenot for hanley straight up
1 Aaron down, 1 to go
by jesus christos on Dec 1, 2009 4:19 PM CST up reply actions
huh?
I don’t want to hear about their money issues.
Well then I recommend that you go elsewhere because its a reality. You saying that you don’t want to hear about their money issues is roughly akin to my wanting to study World War II, but not hear about that Hitler fellow.
The question is not always how much money, but how it is spent.
Hendry does not always use his best judgement when doing contracts.
That is the point
Too many people claim that Zell and Ricketts are such cheapskates. The salary cap is 140 million. It is one of the highest in baseball. Just because Hendry wastes some of it doesn’t mean the ownership should continue to give him more.
None of those are bad moves
Gregg and Fox were no brainers, Harden will probably get more on the open market than what the Cubs would have been willing to pay, and ReJo can still come back. I’m more interested to see who on other teams wasn’t offered arbitration, as that will really affect the free agent market.
http://www.fivetoolfans.com
I agree with everything you said...
…however I think, Harden thinks, he’d get a better deal on the open market and walk. Therefore we would get some draft picks. However maybe because he’s only listed as a Type B the Cubs didn’t think it was worth the “risk.”
I believe he would have gotten something like $8-10 million? Am I wrong?
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
That's the estimate I've read
If Harden doesn’t find a deal he likes and the Cubs are still looking for starting pitching, then they could bring him back. I, however, think that some team will overspend on him.
I understand the Cubs reasoning, and I’m not enamored of Harden enough to argue against it.
http://www.fivetoolfans.com
I agree.
I think he would have walked, but I’m not sure he was worth the “risk.”
Although to play devil’s advocate (with myself), it would have been nice to have the extra starting arms with Lilly out the first month.
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
What team is seriously going after Harden though?
He seems to be flying under the radar. I could see Boston maybe trying to pick him up, but who else? I could easily see him returning
Wrigley Bound in the Summer of 2010
I hear the Twins still have a har...ahem, are still interested.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Dec 1, 2009 3:45 PM CST up reply actions
He hasn't been a big name in rumors
But I imagine there will be several teams looking for pitching willing to take the risk. Harden can be tantalizingly good at the same time as he’s infuriatingly bad.
See also: this game
http://www.fivetoolfans.com
boston and seattle
have been two of the early rumors on potential destinations. I’m sure there have been a couple more, but those two teams are the teams that I remember right now.
Boston has more pressing issues at SS
Seattle could be his best bet
Wrigley Bound in the Summer of 2010
the red sox, though
seem likely to at least pick up one starter this offseason, and harden would actually find a great situation there in that, he likely wouldn’t be asked for much early in the year, and could perhaps start on the dl and take a job from Wakefield at around midseason.
Seattle does offer Rich the opportunity of being close to home (from the Vancouver area, iirc). He also offers a pitcher’s park that could help.
That said, tis early, and a lot more teams could emerge. I imagine most of these teams will go after the less risky arms first
well
looks like the red sox interest is being discussed again, as morosi and rosenthal suggest that the red sox will go after him.
It honestly wouldn’t surprise me if Harden signed in the next week or so. Boston just makes too much sense – he goes to a place where he isn’t going to be counted on, goes to a winning club.
Harden
He will be an interesting one to watch as it seems as though he’ll get a few other offers and likely for more money. The Red Sox probably would offer a 1 year deal, or a 1 year + an option at best. The Mariners, on the other hand, could offer him a multi-year deal and the Twins would also have to do the same to beat out the Red Sox.
I read an article saying the Red Sox might be interested, but now I can’t find it.
"This season has been everything most of us feared it would be[.]"
Mike Rutherford, Card Chronicle
http://www.cardchronicle.com/
Found it
Source: Red Sox ‘Serious About Pursuing’ Right-Hander Rich Harden
"This season has been everything most of us feared it would be[.]"
Mike Rutherford, Card Chronicle
http://www.cardchronicle.com/
The Yankees declined to offer Pettitte, Matsui and Damon arbitration
None of those players are high on my wish list. If we weren’t stuck paying a lot of money to Alfonso Soriano to keep declining, I wouldn’t mind going after a declining Johnny Damon.
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
You might be the only one
I’d rather have Sam Fuld
"If I were playing third base and my mother were rounding third with the run that was going to beat us, I'd trip her. Oh, I'd pick her up and brush her off and say, 'Sorry, Mom,' but nobody beats me." ~ Leo Durocher
For centerfield? Seriously?
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Dec 2, 2009 10:51 AM CST up reply actions
Anyone have a list of guys that didn't get arbitration?
I think that list is going to be REALLY long this time around.
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
I agree.
Plenty of teams will not offer arb to a player then sign him as a free-agent. The economy will dampen the free-agent market but won’t cause arbiters to adjust their figures down. So teams probably figure they can re-sign a player (or find another equivalent free agent) for less than the arbitration reward.
Johnson could still easily come back
The only reason for the Cubs to offer arb would be if he was a ranked free agent, which he is not. I don’t think ANY player who isn’t a type A or type B gets offered arb. They’re just going to be a FA anyway.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett
This isn't some Johnson returns through backdoor
prank, is it?
at daver's request, Let's frontload this B**ch!
I'm not sure if this is reason feel worried...
Gregg, I agree with, but I am not so certain that potentially losing Johnson, Harden And Chad Fox is a good thing.
Reed Johnson and Rich Harden, two players I’d really hate to see go. Not based on numbers – just a gut feeling.
Well, I never heard it before, but it sounds uncommon nonsense.
- The Mock Turtle, Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll -
Upps my bad - embarrassing first name fail
Well, I never heard it before, but it sounds uncommon nonsense.
- The Mock Turtle, Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll -
And Jake's arm is still attached.
at daver's request, Let's frontload this B**ch!
by N Oakley on Dec 1, 2009 4:45 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
My memory for names sucks big time...
I’m good at telephone numbers though
Well, I never heard it before, but it sounds uncommon nonsense.
- The Mock Turtle, Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll -
ot: MB "heating up"
This wasn’t worthy of it’s own post, but in his blog update update the arbitration decisions, Bruce Miles notes that the MB situation could be heating up.
Not offering arbitration
That frees up some money. It makes payroll more flexible to dump Bradley for a bad contract. Yikes. Hard to believe one deal could screw us over like that. We might be better off keeping Bradley at this rate.
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
all sound moves
Gregg and Fox are no-brainers. Harden will likely end up being too expensive (given the Cubs’ financial situation) for what he will provide.
As for Reed … I REALLY think that he’s overvalued by most BCBers because he’s a good guy and a hard worker. I’m OK with bringing him back at a lower salary, but I totally get Hendry’s reluctance to pay $3 million (or more) for an injury-prone fourth outfielder who hits — based on the Cubs’ other needs — from the wrong side of the plate.
by elgato on Dec 1, 2009 5:12 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
The other thing is that....
… it makes no sense to offer arb to someone who brings no compensation if he signs with someone else.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Especially true
given that most people seem to think the arbiters won’t adjust downward for the economy to the level they should. Reed might have been a $3m guy when he got his last contract, but he’s not in the current economic climate.
OT - Ryan freel
MLB just showed their top 9 defensive plays at third base and Ryan Freel was number 3. I almost forgot he was ever a Cub
"There are no curses here...Games are won and lost on the baseball field" - Lou Piniella
by El Borto on Dec 1, 2009 5:52 PM CST via mobile reply actions
Too bad we didn't have him when he was relevant.
Randy Wells. A product of the Roy Halladay School of Pitching, located in Toronto, Canada. Possible relocation.
Yeah, I saw that last week or so.
Andres Blanco was robbed. His incredible play late in the season – can’t remember the exact circumstances off-hand – should have been recognized.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Dec 2, 2009 10:53 AM CST up reply actions
No not Chad Fox!!!
/sarcasm and career
Randy Wells. A product of the Roy Halladay School of Pitching, located in Toronto, Canada. Possible relocation.
Well
We’ll see if Jim Hendry is done for good blowing Fox. I for the life of me don’t understand why Hendry has felt the obligation to make sure Chad Friggn Fox fully vests in a major league pension given that the guy has precisely one year of decent performance in his whole big league career.
"Cubs will win 79 to 83 games." BLou (7/21/09)
...and that one good year came in MILWAUKEE a longggggg time ago
"Cubs will win 79 to 83 games." BLou (7/21/09)
Does this have any impact on the draft pick compensation if we lose Harden to FA?
I don’t know how it works.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
yes
basically, we won’t get a draft pick now. had we offered arb to harden, and had he turned it down, we would’ve gottne a supplemental first rounder.
Well... that's a retarded baseball decision...
given the fact that we could’ve traded him prior to the deadline and gotten something in return. If I’m not mistaken, weren’t there rumors of other team’s interest in him last July/August? Ugh.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
The risk, of course, is that he accepts arb....
… and then you are stuck paying $10m to him. That MIGHT turn out OK, but it also just about kills your payroll flexibility.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
What kills payroll flexibility is Jim Hendry reckless spending in the past
Jim Hendry has extremely limited these team’s options. The Soriano, Fukudome, Bradley and even Dempster contracts are an anchor on this franchise right now. And that’s not to say there isn’t other big money tied up elsewhere.
"Cubs will win 79 to 83 games." BLou (7/21/09)
That's exactly the reason they had to say goodbye to Harden.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Should have traded Harden to Minnesota when we had the chance
There were still games to be played, but I’m sure Hendry wishes he could have a do over.
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
And that's always 20/20
He would have been blasted in the media for throwing in the towel so early.
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
But some how Hendry ...
has managed to keep his job . Jim Hendry has went unchecked for a few years . We will see how long Rickett’s puts up with this . The Kevin Gregg mess really had me wondering about the Cubs G.M.
again on the Dempster thing
He’s not an “anchor on this franchise”. You have to pay for a solid 2/3 starter, and Dempster was a solid 2/3 starter. He posted a FIP/xFIP of 3.87/3.86. He pitched 200 innings. He had a 3.6 WAR. No, he wasn’t as good as his 2008 5.1 WAR, but to expect him to repeat a 5.1 WAR was unrealistic, and to use that as a standard would be unfair. He was top 35 in WAR last year for starters (tied for 32nd with Carlos Zambrano, behind Ted Lilly, who tied for 29th). He was actually a bargain on his 2009 salary (8 million). Unless you think he’s absolutely going to collapse, and considering he’s posted back to back solid years, that would be hard argument to make right now. More than likely, he’ll be worth close to, if not more than his 2010 salary (12.5 million). Add in that he’s one of the clubhouse leaders, and I do not see any reason to consider the Dempster contract “an anchor”. You want to talk about an anchor on the pitching staff, and I’d point to Zambrano’s contract before I would point to Dempster’s, as Z’s due close to 54 million through the next through years. I’m fine with what likely will be 3/36 left on Dempster’s deal (I see little to no way that he doesn’t utilize the 2012 option). Maybe he’ll be a tad overpriced in the final year, but it’s not a huge concern.
Let me point you to Dave Cameron’s article on Ryan Dempster.
by toonsterwu on Dec 1, 2009 9:27 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
Rec'd, not that I'm expecting him to actually read this.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Dec 2, 2009 10:54 AM CST up reply actions
I guess my point was...
If you knew you weren’t going to offer him arbitration (which was likely discussed between Hendry and his staff a while ago… at least at the time when he was claimed off waivers), then you should’ve traded him.
Lousy baseball management. Lousy.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
There's an important fact to consider.
In August, Rich Harden projected as a type A free agent. Partly because Harden decided not to pitch his last couple of starts, he ended up being a type B free agent.
This cuts the value of the return on offering him arbitrition more than half. It’s very possible Harden being projected as a type A free agent in August influenced the level of players the Cubs wanted for him in a trade. If he had projected in August as a type B free agent, that may have changed Hendry’s strategy.
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on Dec 2, 2009 9:19 AM CST up reply actions
Interesting
I didn’t realize he projected as a Type A in August. That definitely sounds like a good strategy by Hendry. I still think the Cubs will make an offer to him, and this only helps my case
"If I were playing third base and my mother were rounding third with the run that was going to beat us, I'd trip her. Oh, I'd pick her up and brush her off and say, 'Sorry, Mom,' but nobody beats me." ~ Leo Durocher
Baseball's current economics dictate no arbitration offered
Cubs aren’t the only team declining arbitration. Fact is the baseball economy is hurting as much as the U.S. economy and there is a GLUT of ballplayers looking for work this winter.
I can understand the decision to say bye to Rich Harden.
But….the Cubs have a dubious pitching situation at this point. The juvenile Zambrano fronts a staff that includes the overrated Dempster (his personality earns him brownie points that limit Cub fans objectively looking at the guy’s performance), an aging and rehabilitating Lilly (who was a 6 inning pitcher before surgery), and former non-prospect Wells. Yikes.
The bullpen? It’s very unsituated right now.
"Cubs will win 79 to 83 games." BLou (7/21/09)
You've answered your own question.
“there is a GLUT of ballplayers looking for work this winter”.
Correct, and there will be more after the non-tender deadline, so the Cubs should be able to fill any of these holes.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Position help YES, pitching help NO
Quality pitching isn’t going to come cheap. It never does. The Cubs have enough dubious characters on this staff right now. What they need is some real quality. And you just don’t find that in the bargain bin.
"Cubs will win 79 to 83 games." BLou (7/21/09)
Quality players, both pitchers and position players
will be available as bargains. That happens vitually every year.
Last year, Randy Wolf was a bargain sign for the Dodgers. The year before, Kyle Lohse was a bargain sign for the Cardinals.
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on Dec 2, 2009 9:21 AM CST up reply actions
You keep referring to Lilly as a 6 inning pitcher
which is technically true except pitchers who consistently go six plus inning in nearly every start and are usually effective are rare indeed. Your boy Harden had one fewer start and 36 fewer innings THIS year which was one his better ones. In his six full seasons in the MLB Harden has thrown about 680 innings, in the same six seasons Lilly has thrown about 1150. Lilly has been a remarkably reliable and durable pitcher with the Cubs in particular. I ask again is there ANY Cub on the current roster you actually like ? ( Lou does not count).
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Dec 1, 2009 8:41 PM CST up reply actions
again
Dempster had a solid season. I’ll just reference the Dave Cameron article. It’s much easier than rewriting the same arguments over and over.
It’s got nothing to do with personality and everything to do with the fact that … simply put, Dempster had a solid year. He showed that his 2008 wasn’t a fluke. You want to argue that Zambrano’s overrated and overpaid? Fine. You want to argue that Lilly will regress? I can buy that. You want to argue that Wells was a fluke? Fine, I can see an argument for that.
But this Dempster thing … it just has no merit to it, outside of you disliking him for some reason.
let me try this another way
instead of me repeating the same arguments, I’d like to hear why you think he’s overrated? I mean … unless you think W-L is a good way to judge a pitcher’s ability? I would hope in this day and age, that W-L isn’t used as a significant measure to judge how good a pitcher is.
hes overrated because he didnt go 31-0 with a sub 2.5 ERA
1 Aaron down, 1 to go
by jesus christos on Dec 1, 2009 10:14 PM CST up reply actions
Not to mention
That Dempster clearly struggled early in ’09 with his family situation. Look at the HRs and ERs in particular.
April and May: 68.1 IP, 34 ER, 60 H (8 HR), 27 BB, 57 K, 4-3 W/L, 4.48 ERA, 1.27 WHIP
Rest of season: 131.2 IP, 47 ER, 136 H (14 HR), 38 BB, 115 K, 7-6 W/L, 3.21 ERA, 1.32 WHIP
Certainly all the innings count and you could certainly argue that Dempster helped put the Cubs in a hole, but if you give him some leeway for the family issues, then he’s got a two-year run of solid performances. I consider Demp to be one of our two most consistent starters (Ted, of course).
Here's something to chew on, why not try to go after Vlad Guerrero and stick him in RF?
Wrigley Bound in the Summer of 2010
because he can no longer move.
And there has been much discussion about moving Fuku back to RF where he is more comfortable defensively.
Vlad has severely declined and absolutely cannot play the field
He’s about done.
The Blackhawks and the Stanley Cup in 2010.
I'd rather have the statue of Ernie Banks
The statue may have more range in RG than Vlad.
The Angels prefer Bobby Abreu in RF, what does that tell you about Vlad's mobility?
The 2009 White Sox....like a 40 degree day.
by Ozzie Montana on Dec 1, 2009 11:43 PM CST up reply actions
Because Harden is likely to be worth...
more than the contract he’s expected to get in the arbitration process. He’s a top talent, and the Cubs have a chance at having him under team control for a year at a relatively low price. You want those players, even if they don’t perfectly fit your roster because they are assets you can turn into other assets that fit your needs better.
by shawndgoldman on Dec 2, 2009 12:41 AM CST up reply actions
what do you think his arb # will be?
if it’s in the $6M range, sure – that’d be a relative bargain. But if it’s more in the $10M range (or higher), not so much. Arbitration has a strong history for relatively high numbers dollarwise – why would Harden be any different?
If the Cubs had the payroll flexibility, then yeah, it’d probably still be worth it – even at the high end. But I think it’s been pretty apparent that they don’t. As things stand, it seems they have the $ to make one big move. And it also seems that finding a strong CF is their preferred one big move. Or maybe it’s a strong RF and leave Dome in CF. Plan C might be a strong MI. While you can never have enough starting pitching, I think it’s down on the priority list.
Regardless, if they shoot their $ wad on Harden in arbitration, then that’s it – they’ve lost the chance to make a big offseason move, unless Ricketts agrees to increase payroll by another $10M or so.
While I certainly think a good case could be made to do just that as gaining control of Harden for another year is worth a payroll increase. Unfortunately there’s still the specter of Milton Bradley hanging over everyone’s head. He hasn’t been dealt yet, so Cubs have no way of knowing yet how much $ they’ll have to eat. And with that unknown still in play, I doubt Ricketts would agree to a payroll increase. I’m sure he realizes by now that eating MB’s whole salary is very much a real possibility so in his mind, that is the payroll increase for 2010.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Dec 2, 2009 8:21 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
his arb number would've likely been a raise
from this past year, imo. There was very little chance that, after a decent year where he pitched innings, that he was going to go down (and also, I think there’s a limit on how far it can go down anyways, although I’m not certain as of this moment right now).
Yes, I am.
I said this last night, but I think that this is one of two things:
1.) Harden’s arm is in really bad shape
2.) the Cubs are doing something really dumb
If it’s 1., i’m sad. If it’s 2., i’m mad. Either way, it’s not good.
by shawndgoldman on Dec 2, 2009 12:37 AM CST up reply actions
And I responded there
You are missing a third and likely option, the Cubs can’t afford him at $8-$10 million. Add the other arb cases, the increase in salary to Dempster and other escalating backloaded contracts plus any money needed in the Bradley mess and the Cubs can’t afford $8 – $10 million for their number #4 or #5 starter.
I think it's a combination of the two.
His arm isn’t healthy enough to risk the money.
at daver's request, Let's frontload this B**ch!
Why do you think that Cubs didn't offer arby to Harden?
I really want the Cardinals to sign him, but that changes if he has a serious injury that the Cubs know about. Do you think this was about that, or about payroll restrictions?
i think payroll was a big factor
but bruce miles, over at his blog at the daily herald (just google bruce miles inside pitch), keeps suggesting/hinting that the Cubs are worried about him physically as well.
I think the best way to look at it is that it was a combination of both factors. Had they offered Harden arbitration, the Cubs would’ve likely gone past payroll, and would’ve had to find some way to deal him.
I think Harden will probably sign a 1 year deal with an option, perhaps for a total of 10 -12 mil over those 2 years. Just a rough guess, but early suggestions are that it’s quite unlikely he’ll get close to what he might’ve gotten in arbitration.
bleh typo
end of 2nd paragraph should say “would’ve had to find some way to clear money”. Spaced out there.
I think you overestimate...
how difficult it would be to deal him. He’d have a reasonable contract and only one year on it. He’s a top-tier starting pitcher when healthy, and there will be at team out there willing to roll the dice on that, especially after two consecutive years of relatively strong health.
by shawndgoldman on Dec 2, 2009 12:38 AM CST up reply actions
shawn
I’m almost certain, that if Harden had accepted arbitration, that he couldn’t be dealt until June 15th. I remember they talked about that rule a lot last year with the Type A’s that were left hanging late.
I posted something about this in the other thread
but let’s say I’m wrong on the trade rule for a sec (pretty sure I’m right on it, but just playing it out).
Let’s say I’m wrong. Also, Cubs have low 140’s as their limit. Let’s say Harden accepts arb. The pushes the Cubs to their barrier essentially. I think it’s safe to say that, in arb, he could probably get 8-10 mil, if not, a tad more. We’re essentially looking at Harden with Fuld in CF in that scenario. Certainly, I would’ve rather had the Cubs let Grabow go, give Marshall/Gorzelanny/Gaub the pen roles, sign a cheap CF to platoon with Fuld, and go with Harden. I also don’t think Fuld would be the worst idea out there (decent against righties and lefties, his discipline is there, and he’s got a little pop in the bat, enough to be more than a slap the ball around guy, while upgrading CF defense), and that Harden/Fuld might be better than Marshall/Gorzelanny/Samardzija and FA CF. I’m not too worried about Harden and I think he’ll come back just fine. He had a healthy xFIP this past year. While I don’t buy the idea that he would be a big bargain (I’m guessing that the bargain argument is the average WAR from 03-09 argument that’s been used, putting his value loosely at 2.5 WAR, and thus around 11.5 mil or so), I can buy that 8-10 mil would probably be solid value for him in 2010.
That said, there was no chance that the Cubs were going to go into the year with Fuld as their main CF option. Thus, you have to clear a contract, and assuming I am wrong on the trade rule, then Harden’s would be the one to move. One problem – leverage. As history (of baseball and negotiations in general) has shown, teams will pay less if they feel that the other side is forced into a corner. 2nd problem – early indications are that what he might get on the market is far less than what he might get in arbitration, for justifiable reasons. Now, maybe some team decides to get crazy and offer him 10 mil. It seems rather unlikely as of now, though.
Thus, the end result would be what? You deal him, have to eat some money, and likely not get that big of a return. Teams don’t give up that much for a guy only under control for 1 year to begin with – add in that the Cubs would be looked at as having minimal leverage and Harden’s own health history, and the return would likely be slimmer. Okay, so … getting something might be better than nothing. Problem is, in this scenario, even if eating a chunk of Harden’s salary in a trade is okay, it pushes the Cubs ability to go after FA’s/make offseason moves further back.
Is any of this ideal in any way shape or form? No, absolutely not. I wish the Grabow contract never happened. That said, I’m not real sure that we can chalk this solely up as an issue on health and durability. More than likely, it’s a combination of both of these factors that are at play.
That said, I’m fairly certain about the trade rule. This is the quickest article I could find on google that suggests it. It came from Barry Bloom of mlb.com last year. It notes that the player would have to give consent to be traded, and that the union would have to involved.
by toonsterwu on Dec 2, 2009 1:31 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
btw
someone posted the specific article on bruce miles blog today, noting that there is no differentiation between “regular” free agent and Type A free agent, and as such, the free agent rule for June 15th would’ve held, unless the player waived said right (and if he did, the union would need to get involved, and I’m just not sold that, right now, the union would bend that rule unless there was a really significant Type A issue).
... and I'd add...
that it’s no certainty he would have accepted the arbitration offer. If you put the chances of that at 50/50 it reduces the risk the Cubs have that their salary is shot. And you have to consider the other side of the equation, the compensatory pick. That’s one way to help your team build it’s roster without large expense.
by shawndgoldman on Dec 2, 2009 12:40 AM CST up reply actions
Most indications are, and
Bruce Miles hinted at this as well, that he would’ve pulled the trigger on arbitration. Harden’s looking for a short term deal to reestablish his value. Early indications are that he might be able to get 5 or 6 mil a year (the spec was with the Mariners). Arbitration would’ve offer him much more, 8-10 mil.
As for a compensatory pick, yeah it would’ve been nice, but it’s not something that I’m too concerned with. The chances of said asset being able to help within a 3 year window is rather slim. Sure, more picks equals more assets, and considering the positive direction the system is taking, that would’ve been nice, but as long as we aren’t burning picks on mediocre FA’s (winter of 2005), I’m not too worried about it.
If the 5-6 mil figure is correct...
… it might be possible to sign Harden anyway. Right?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
i'm really not sure
that we have 5-6 million for a SP. It seems more and more likely that the entirety of MB’s contract for 2010 will be a sunk cost, and that means that we are sitting in the 135-140 range, with the Cubs payroll barrier supposedly in the 140’s. The most optimistic guess has Ricketts allowing 145, so that would give us some room (Bruce Miles posted a 143-145 range yesterday on his blog when I asked him again). Even then, CF has to be addressed, and that just doesn’t leave much.
I don't think
that, based on the spec, that he’s significantly worse than when he was the A’s. I’m not real sold that he’s going to be on the open market that long (I doubt he’s there past, say, mid-January, and I still think he might get picked up before the end of the year), and I think enough teams are willing to take that gamble. Sure, that wouldn’t reflect on his health, but more on a team’s willingness to take a chance, but then again, Harden was a risk to begin with, and there was a reason why the Cubs got him for a relative average package.
I think it is payroll
Hendry has himself boxed in with his poor money management over the past few seasons.
But of course with Harden
it is buyer beware. He could go down again at any time. Add in those factors plus his numbers from last season and I’m not surprised the Cubs passed.
I've come to this conclusion, too.
I love watching Rich Harden pitch and wish he could remain a Cub. But the team could not risk their payroll flexibility by offering him arbitration – especially with his injury history. Now the Cubs did do a great job at keeping Rich healthy since he got here, but apparently they don’t have all that much confidence in doing it going forward.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
by dat cubfan daver on Dec 2, 2009 10:59 AM CST up reply actions
With Reed, we will succeed
The guy is a gamer. Cubs fans love him for the same reasons they love DeRosa. He go all out, and never gives up . Just ask Dempster
Not worth starting a fanpost,
but didn’t the rules used to say that you can’t re-sign a player you didn’t offer arbitration to until something like May 1? I seem to remember Clemens .. ~ looks it up at Wiki ~ …
The Astros declined arbitration to Clemens on December 7, 2005, which prevented them from re-signing him before May 1, 2006.
Judging by the discussion, this apparently changed??
by The Deputy Mayor of Rush Street on Dec 3, 2009 5:32 PM CST reply actions

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