Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: Kobe Bryant Isn't Up To Speed On Jeremy Lin, 'Linning'

Where it started

The Cubs need to unload the turbulent Milton Bradley and his $21 million salary. The club is pushing the limit of its budget, weighed down by inflated contracts, even as it attempts to sign free agents or trade for players to help them compete in 2010.

Many people point to the DeRosa trade and signing of Milton Bradley as the point where the Cubs went bad. While I cannot deny the impact of these moves, which I at best was suspect but hopeful of at the time, I believe there is another key move by the Cubs that bares examination in any discussion of how we got here.

During the winter of 2006 and 2007 the Cubs went on a spending spree in an attempt to bolster the team and win then. The Cubs needed a bat and had a choice between two outstanding free agents, both left fielders.

The first was Alfonso Soriano, who hit .277 with a career high .351 OBP with 46 HRs and 95 RBIs with 41 SBs. Soriano styled himself a leadoff man despite his power numbers and the Cubs also needed a leadoff man. They felt that signing the speedy and powerful Soriano would solve both problems in one stroke. I will not discuss the logic of this belief as it has been done so already to no firm conclusion.

The Cubs other choice was Carlos Lee, who split time between Milwaukee and Texas in 2006 hitting .300 with a .355 OBP with 37 HRs and 116 RBIs. Lee, I think everyone can agree, is decidedly not a leadoff hitter despite his 19 SBs in 2006.

The Cubs choose Soriano, committing eight years and $136 million to the outfielder. When I read on the internet that The Cubs had signed a major free agent, a legitimate 40-homerun hitter I was ecstatic. I couldn't believe that the Cubs had spent the money to bring in a top-flight free agent coming off a career year. Though, as the controversy as to whether he should in fact hit leadoff began, and I realized the implications of his deal, I couldn't help but wonder if Carlos Lee would not have been the better choice (I don't mean to say that to make myself look better, I really did wonder that and posted to that affect on the now defunct TalkingCubs.com). But, I let it go, not wanting to look a gift horse in the mouth.

Everyone knows what has happened with Soriano and the Cubs since then, but I think we should examine his performance in comparison with what Carlos Lee has done in that time.

In 2007 Soriano posted an excellent .299 AVG with a respectable .337 OBP 33 HRs 70 RBIs 97 Rs with 31 BBs and 130 Ks in 135 games. His stolen bases dropped to 19 with a leg injury.

Lee, in the same year in Houston, put up a 303 AVG .354 OBP 32 HRs 119 RBIs 93 Rs with 53 BBs and 63 Ks in 162 games. Lee's SBs also dropped to 10.

Overall, not a huge difference between the two. Averages are about the same, Lee got on base more, home runs are about the same, but Lee, hitting in the middle of the Astros lineup, drove in 49 more RBIs (admittedly a team dependent stat) while walking 22 more times and striking out 67 less times. Lee's OBP as a middle of the order hitter was also 17 points higher, and he was driven in just four times less than Soriano as a lead-off hitter (admittedly a team dependent stat).

In 2008, injured again, Soriano hit a respectable .280 with a fine .344 OBP 29 HRs 75 RBIs 76 Rs 43 BBs and 103 Ks in 109 games, injured again. He ran for another 19 SBs

Lee, meanwhile, posted a .314 AVG with a .368 OBP 28 HRs 100 RBIs 61 Rs 37 walks and 49 Ks in 115 games. Not a big part of his game, his stolen bases dropped to just 4. Lee was also injured, playing in just six more games than Soriano.

Lee hit a full 34 points higher than Soriano in 2008 with an OBP that was 24 points higher than the leadoff man. Only one homer separated the two, the advantage going to Soriano, while Lee drove in 25 more RBIs (admittedly a team dependent stat) in the middle of the order in just 6 more games. Lee was also driven in 15 less times than Soriano (admittedly a team dependent stat). Lee walked 6 less times than Soriano, but also struck out 54 less times.

In 2009 Alfonso Soriano was injured again, but played in 117 games. His numbers, however, fell sharply as he hit just .241 with a .303 OBP 20 HRs 55 RBIs 64 Rs 40 BBs and 118 Ks. He ran for just 9 SBs

Lee hit an even .300 with a .343 OBP 26 HRs 102 RBIs 65 Rs 41 BBs and 51 Ks in 160 games. He stole just 5 bases.

Although Lee also suffered a slip in some key categories, Lee hit 59 points higher than Soriano and got on base 40 points more. He hit just 6 more homeruns than the injury plagued Soriano, but drove in 47 more RBIs (admittedly a team dependent stat) being driven in one more time than Soriano (admittedly, a team dependent stat). Lee walked just once more than Soriano but struck out 67 less times in 43 more games played.

As you may have guessed, my thesis is that the Cubs should have signed the more durable less controversial bat of Carlos Lee in the winter of 2006-2007 instead of Soriano. The stats that represent this the most to me are Average, Runs Batted In, On Base Percentage, and Strikeouts, not to mention Lee’s more reasonable, though still extravagant deal of six years and $100 million.

Hindsight is 20/20, and one can never say what a particular player would or would not have done with a particular team had they signed him instead of someone else, but if what Lee and Soriano have done since that fateful decision are any indication of what they would have done, say, if their roles were reversed then I feel it is clear that Carlos Lee would have been the better choice.

I still like Soriano and feel, if healthy, that he can be a large contributor to this ball club. I just feel, in hindsight, Lee would have been the better choice.

 

EDIT:

Many posters have quite correctly pointed out that Soriano is superior defensively to Lee. In addition, several posters point out reasons Lee wanted to stay in Texas, such as his ranch there, and that Soriano was more durable until he came to the Cubs.

Basiclly, my thesis is blown out of the water. I should have considered other factors other than offense, and for that i apologize.

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.

Comment 95 comments  |  0 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

I appreciate the effort you put into writing this.

Lee may have been the better choice (I can’t say I’ve done my own investigating into the comparison). But I think you have to analyze this stuff based on the circumstances at the time that the decision was made. Include all that and perhaps you have a more useful discussion.

That said, the what if can be interesting. And clearly the size of Sori’s contract, especially backloaded as it is is concerning.

by CubsWin!Oregon on Dec 10, 2009 11:41 PM CST reply actions  

just curious

who is better defensively, Lee or Soriano? I want to say Soriano, can anyone confirm this and make the argument if the ofensive differences is offset by the defensive?

baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out

by Cubbie-Tim on Dec 11, 2009 12:09 AM CST reply actions  

I think what's pretty crazy

Is that Soriano was signed with the thought of him playing CF (which would make him incredibly valuable with his offensive numbers), and yet it was obvious right away that he was a corner outfielder (which obviously still made him valuable, but not nearly as valuable as a CF).

Imagine what we would be saying about Soriano if he had actually been able to play a solid CF. His contract would still be too expensive, but this post (and subsequent complaints of what a drain he is on the payroll) aren’t nearly as necessary. He’s quite possibly referred to as the best CF in the game (this year notwithstanding).

But obviously that didn’t happen. And as defense continues to gain importance (or popularity) in assessing players due to statistical advancement, it seems kind of absurd that the Cubs spent 136 million dollars on a guy who at no point could play the position he was signed up for.

by shoemile on Dec 11, 2009 2:09 AM CST up reply actions  

You can look at the Soriano to CF move

as very comparable to the Schumaker to 2B move. It was highly doubtful and everyone knew it was doubtful – but it was worth trying for a year given the rosters on each team. Jim Hendry was very confident in Felix Pie and did not expect Soriano to hold CF long-term.

Is he traded yet?

by DGU on Dec 11, 2009 7:40 AM CST up reply actions  

One word:

HOP

(This story was produced by BCPDnewservice. Our motto: If you don’t like this story then suck it!)

by BrewCrew'sPrinceofDarkness on Dec 11, 2009 2:33 AM CST up reply actions  

Soriano by far

Soriano’s UZR/150, last 4 years:
6.6
22.4
5.2
-15.9

Lee’s UZR/150, Last 4 years:
-15.4
-5.4
-4.4
-5.4

Soriano’s got that one bad year, which was hopefully due to his injury. Lee hasn’t had a positive UZR since 2004.

by Wreckard on Dec 11, 2009 9:36 AM CST up reply actions  

would that offset the offensive differences shown in the OP

baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out

by Cubbie-Tim on Dec 11, 2009 1:43 PM CST up reply actions  

For Soriano's good years, yes

Soriano’s 2009 was bad on both sides of the ball, so he had negative overall value last year.

But Soriano was more valuable than Lee in 2007 and 2008 (6.6 wins above replacement for Lee vs 8.6 for Fonsie).

by Wreckard on Dec 12, 2009 9:02 AM CST up reply actions  

Haiku

Fielding I did
Not consider clearly the
Fonze is much better

by Snake Plisskin on Dec 11, 2009 1:47 PM CST up reply actions  

I know everyone is upset with Soriano...

but I don’t think he is a total waste. I also know he didn’t do so good last season. Last season was his, so far, worst season with the Cubs. Soriano could help the Cubs in the next couple of years. He is being overpaid, but lets not blame the Cubs’ present issues on the Soriano signing.

by Cubbiegoon on Dec 11, 2009 6:52 AM CST reply actions  

I'd like to look at Soriano

but I can’t see him.

"I have the time and hatred but not the knowledge." ~Madison Cub Fan (Aug. 25, 2009)

by Goodie1969 on Dec 11, 2009 7:21 AM CST reply actions  

I think what this post is missing

is the relative expectation of how these players will age on long-term contracts. If I have to give one of Carlos Lee or Alfonso Soriano a long-term contract, I expect Soriano and his body-type to be much more likely to age well than Carlos Lee and his body type. Certainly it may turn out that Lee is an exception to players built as he is and it hasn’t gone well for Soriano and his health. But there’s a lot of contract left and we’re talking likelihood. Given the Astros and Cubs farm systems and payrolls, I still believe it is much more likely that Lee will be dead weight holding them back for a few years than Soriano wiill be to us.

Is he traded yet?

by DGU on Dec 11, 2009 7:44 AM CST reply actions  

i believe Lee will be moved to 1B

he has played there *not a lot, i know), and I am not sure if they will be able to resign Berkman if he asks for a big contract (I believe he has 2 years left). But if anyone is going to get a hometown discount its Houston from Berkman. He was born and raised in the area, went to Rice, etc.

baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out

by Cubbie-Tim on Dec 11, 2009 1:47 PM CST up reply actions  

Specifically

you say (part of) your thesis is

the Cubs should have signed the more durable less controversial bat of Carlos Lee

but nowhere is there any argument for why Lee should be seen as more durable or expected to be more durable other than a hindsight that isn’t even yet looking over the entire contracts.

Is he traded yet?

by DGU on Dec 11, 2009 7:47 AM CST reply actions  

This is well researched and written.

But the point isn’t where it started. It’s where it will end, or must end — with the dealing of Milton Bradley.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Dec 11, 2009 8:05 AM CST reply actions  

Let me echo

that while I disagree, it is nice to read something that is trying to make a rational case instead of just demagoguery playing on the frustrations of the MB situation.

Is he traded yet?

by DGU on Dec 11, 2009 8:24 AM CST up reply actions  

+1

well thought out, well written, well researched, and didnt include multiple bashings of anyone

baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out

by Cubbie-Tim on Dec 11, 2009 1:48 PM CST up reply actions  

Didn't Lee ...

want to play in Texas? I’ve made this point — in comments — before, and other posters have said Lee wasn’t a viable option for the Cubs because he wanted to stay in Texas.

That said, I don’t know whether either guy was a better choice, partly because they’re both anchored to left and partly because they both hit right handed.

So I’m not really going to argue that Lee would have been a better signing. But I think that Hendry — as he has done too often in recent years — paid too much by a year or two to get Soriano. Why was he worth two years and $36 million more than a guy who is the same age?

It’s this kind of contract — even if other teams were reportedly willing to pay more in some cases — that could really cripple the Cubs for several years

by elgato on Dec 11, 2009 8:29 AM CST reply actions  

Does anyone remember what LH options were out there that year?

Because, yeah, I do think the issue of Sori’s RHedness has come into play.

I have heard also that Lee was only going to Houston – but who knows. The Yankees were able to get CC despite where he wanted by overpaying, so we might have been able to do the same.

Is he traded yet?

by DGU on Dec 11, 2009 8:53 AM CST up reply actions  

Overpaying?

Everyone complains about “overpaying” Soriano. Lee got $100 million. How much more would you have given him?

I don’t think it would have mattered. At the time, talk was that Lee wanted to stay in Houston.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Dec 11, 2009 9:08 AM CST up reply actions  

well ...

Lee wasn’t STAYING in Houston. He had played the last few months of 2006 for the Rangers. But putting that aside …

Many here on BCB, you and I included, have said in recent days that Milton would be MUCH easier to trade if he only had one year left on his contract. I wouldn’t be surprised if we’re saying the same thing in 2012 — when Soriano has two years left at a hefty price tag.

I know the Cubs had to make a splash after the awful 2006 season. But why did they decide to give Soriano two more years than the comparable Lee got from the Astros? I don’t think Lee’s contract indicates he gave the Astros a discount. And Soriano at six years and $108 million would look a LOT better right now than eight years and $136 million.

by elgato on Dec 11, 2009 9:14 AM CST up reply actions  

and ...

I think Hendry does this kind of thing too often — Soriano, Miles, Bradley, Marquis, etc. — even if the particulars in each case are different.

by elgato on Dec 11, 2009 9:16 AM CST up reply actions  

Sorry...

… I meant “stay in Texas”.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Dec 11, 2009 9:22 AM CST up reply actions  

I think people forget...

… that Soriano was being pursued by two other teams, the Angels and Phillies. I can’t find the link now, but IIRC the Angels had offered him seven years; the Cubs had to offer eight to beat that offer.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Dec 11, 2009 9:36 AM CST up reply actions  

this is one thing I don't understand ...

So the Cubs should get a pass on overly long contracts because other teams were willing to pay nearly as much? I think that logic only works if the competing contract would NOT have also drawn criticism. If the Angels had Soriano for four more years at $18 million, it would STILL be considered a bad deal at this point.

Yes, hindsight is 20/20, and yes, Soriano helped the Cubs win two division titles. But if you look at Hendry’s deals in TOTAL — a year or two too many at high prices to SEVERAL players — it’s not hard to understand why the Cubs are where they are, especially THIS offseason.

by elgato on Dec 11, 2009 9:45 AM CST up reply actions  

No, the point was...

… the Cubs were determined to make a splash in that year’s FA market. Soriano was the top free agent. The Cubs wanted him, and yes, they had to overpay to get him. That’s not revisionist at all.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Dec 11, 2009 9:59 AM CST up reply actions  

I wasn't saying it was revisionist

And I acknowledged above about the need for a splash. I’m saying that Hendry’s pattern of doing this kind of thing has hurt the Cubs.

by elgato on Dec 11, 2009 10:01 AM CST up reply actions  

Yes and no.

Without Soriano, the Cubs don’t go to the playoffs in 2007.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Dec 11, 2009 12:25 PM CST up reply actions  

again, Al -- I said the pattern

You’re only addressing the Soriano deal — and right now, you’re right that giving Soriano seven years instead of eight wouldn’t make change the Cubs’ current payroll woes — though it might in three years or so.

But it seems possible that …
- Bradley could have been had for two years, given that Dunn and Abreu signed for less than three. If Hendry had done that, Bradley is gone by now.
-
Miles could have been had for one year, given that he’s Aaron Miles. If that had happened, Jake Fox is still a Cub (as a trading chip, if nothing else), and the Cubs wouldn’t have had to ship $1 million for Miles’ contract next year to Oakland.
— Marquis could have been had for two years, given the reaction when he was signed (6.02 ERA in 2006, etc.). If that had happened, Mark DeRosa probably was a Cub last year, we would have had a decent backup for Ramirez, Fontenot never would have had to play third, etc., etc.

That’s not to say that all of Hendry’s signings have been bad. But in those three cases — and in Soriano’s — I strongly believe Hendry was too willing to give another year and several million dollars — money that could be (and could have been) incredibly valuable to the Cubs.

by elgato on Dec 11, 2009 1:49 PM CST up reply actions  

I can't argue with any of these...

… except Soriano’s. The other deals, yes, he was bidding against himself.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Dec 11, 2009 2:25 PM CST up reply actions  

cool

Interesting point from Gordo today:

“Meanwhile, that third year of Bradley’s contract that no one else was offering last winter is chained like an anchor to the Cubs’ plans.”

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/cubs/1933367,CST-SPT-cub11.article

by elgato on Dec 11, 2009 2:36 PM CST up reply actions  

Kosuke

Al — I’ve seen BCBers post that Kosuke could have made more elsewhere — but that he opted for the Cubs for the promise of playing right. Is that true, or speculative?

by elgato on Dec 11, 2009 2:39 PM CST up reply actions  

i have read that many times

here, in the paper, etc

baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out

by Cubbie-Tim on Dec 11, 2009 2:43 PM CST up reply actions  

That's correct, from what I remember.

Both the Padres and White Sox offered more money.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Dec 11, 2009 2:45 PM CST up reply actions  

I really wish he had gone for the money

Sigh. I don’t dislike Kosuke, but he’s simply not worth close to what he’s being paid. And if he had been the No. 5 hitter the Cubs hoped he was going to be, our lives would have been MB-free for the most part.

I know this is old ground.

by elgato on Dec 11, 2009 2:50 PM CST up reply actions  

Per Fangraphs...

…he was worth close to what he got paid in 2009. Gave the Cubs $10.1 MM in production and was paid $12.5 MM.

Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.

by daver on Dec 14, 2009 9:38 AM CST up reply actions  

But what was So Taguchi worth?

"We’re going to come back here next year healthy and do what we’re supposed to do, and we’re going to be all right. That’s not Hendry’s fault. He thought it was the right move. It didn’t work out. But at the same time, he’s the same guy that put back-to-back championship teams together." - Aramis Ramirez

by DGU on Dec 14, 2009 5:35 PM CST up reply actions  

that and he wanted to be the first japanese player of a well known franchise

the sox already had a few

This Chicago Cubs team is currently Aaron free. Keep it that way, please.

by jesus christos on Dec 11, 2009 3:48 PM CST up reply actions  

also

a signing like Soriano tells other players that the CUbs want to win, instead of want to compete sorta. The image that a team wants to compete helps them in the FA market

baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out

by Cubbie-Tim on Dec 11, 2009 1:50 PM CST up reply actions  

I acknowledged earlier that the Cubs wanted to make a splash ...

after 2006 in my post above. And I know there was talk at the time that getting Soriano was the first of several dominos. But …

I think making the splash by spending $36 million more for Soriano than the Astros spent on Lee was probably a mistake — and it started a trend of the Cubs giving a year or two and several million too much on some big-time contracts.

by elgato on Dec 11, 2009 1:55 PM CST up reply actions  

I agree with your point

The Cubs had come off Dusty’s last, lamentable year in 2006 and looked pretty sorry at that point. Hendry had to do something dramatic to sign a top tier FA. That offseason, the FA signing that everyone was second guessing was DeRosa – before his Fan Worship reincarnation.

But once they won the division in 2007, the loser stigma was off. Hendry needed to stop giving away gift years.

by ClarkFan on Dec 11, 2009 9:10 PM CST up reply actions  

I don't think it would have either

but two more years at Carlos Lee’s age might have been tempting.

Is he traded yet?

by DGU on Dec 11, 2009 9:26 AM CST up reply actions  

left field and first base ...

are positions often filled by guys who hit left handed. No disrespect to Lee or even Soriano, but the fact that they’re both right handed means there are fewer places to squeeze in a lefty bat. And most SS, 3Bs and 2Bs and catchers hit right handed, because they basically have to THROW right handed.

That has left the Cubs, basically with second base (Fontenot) right field and center as places to squeeze in lefty bats, which ruled out Dunn and Ibanez last offseason, and prompted the Cubs to sign guys like Bradley and Kosuke as middle-order bats when they really are suited for other roles.

Now, you can argue the merits of the Cubs’ lefty-bat strategy the past two years — and it still boggles my mind that the Cubs didn’t try to talk Abreu down off his high salary demands last winter. But building the team around Lee and Sori has limited WHERE the Cubs can squeeze in a lefty bat,.

by elgato on Dec 11, 2009 9:40 AM CST up reply actions  

That's absolutely right about the LH positions

as for Abreu – his defense was looking really bad and I think the thought was that you can’t put Dome in CF and a bad defender in RF.

I’d say the moves that really hurt us were
1) the failure to develop Corey Patterson by first) rushing him, second) not teaching him patience, and third) trying to force him into a leadoff role for which he was completely unsuited.
2) missing out on Carlos Beltran.

If we had signed Beltran, the lefty thing would not have been an issue and Soriano would be a Met.

Is he traded yet?

by DGU on Dec 11, 2009 10:14 AM CST up reply actions  

Yes.

This is the story I’ve read (and heard) and have always cited as well: Carlos Lee owns a large ranch in Texas and never had any intention of playing anywhere else.

Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.

by daver on Dec 11, 2009 9:08 AM CST up reply actions  

Exactly.

He was never really available, and besides – his contract is considered almost as bad as Soriano’s.

by Wreckard on Dec 11, 2009 9:34 AM CST up reply actions  

Yes, but only because he's got 2 fewer years and $36M less owed to him

If the years and money were the same, I’d rather have Soriano.

by Wreckard on Dec 11, 2009 9:41 AM CST up reply actions  

I would make that trade for the money AND

… because Lee is a better No. 5 hitter than Soriano is a No. 6 hitter. At least, based on what we saw last year.

by elgato on Dec 11, 2009 9:48 AM CST up reply actions  

Well if you're judging Soriano by last year then you might as well just cut him

He literally did more harm than good.

But if you think, like I do, that his 2009 was 100% due to injury, and that he’ll be able to bounce back to something near his old form in 2009, I’m not sure I’d do it with equal money. Soriano’s a much better defender, and should hopefully age better than the increasingly overweight El Caballo.

by Wreckard on Dec 11, 2009 9:51 AM CST up reply actions  

I have a hard time with "Soriano is a better defender arguments"

I also don’t think that the injuries we’ve seen over the past two years — not counting things like the broken hand from a HBP — reflect well on Soriano’s ability to age better.

But, yeah, I get that Soriano shouldn’t be judged solely on his 2009 performance. And I hope you’re right in your predictions. :)

by elgato on Dec 11, 2009 9:54 AM CST up reply actions  

Well, then you're either underestimating how bad Lee is in left

….or overestimating how bad Soriano is there.

Up until 2009, by multiple metrics, Soriano’s been an above average defender. Yes, that’s mostly due to his above-average arm, but throwing the ball is important to defense.

Lee is a miserable defender; he moves like a tank, and is getting slower.

by Wreckard on Dec 11, 2009 10:29 AM CST up reply actions  

That's an interesting thought

Because, if I recall, the Cubs weren’t considered to be the number one option for Soriano in the offseason (I could be remembering wrong). But then the Cubs offered the most money, and that was that. I think if the Cubs would’ve offered 36 million dollars more than the Astros then he’d be alright not being near his ranch.

by shoemile on Dec 11, 2009 1:35 PM CST up reply actions  

its ourside Houston

near Pettite and Clemens amongst others

baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out

by Cubbie-Tim on Dec 11, 2009 1:52 PM CST up reply actions  

outside

baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out

by Cubbie-Tim on Dec 11, 2009 2:28 PM CST up reply actions  

Yeah...

I forgit about his ranch in Texas. Maybe we still couldhave got him, but maybe not.

by Snake Plisskin on Dec 11, 2009 1:37 PM CST up reply actions  

Probably not...

…unless Hendry offered him some massive deal that, as noted above, would’ve been worse than Soriano’s.

Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.

by daver on Dec 11, 2009 1:46 PM CST up reply actions  

people forget to take income tax into consideration

none in Texas changes how much he makes for half his games played. that is a big boost

baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out

by Cubbie-Tim on Dec 11, 2009 1:54 PM CST up reply actions  

Interesting point.

Thanks, Tax Man.

Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.

by daver on Dec 11, 2009 1:55 PM CST up reply actions  

so does offering extra in Chicago vs Houston

offset the difference to make it a more “equal” contract

baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out

by Cubbie-Tim on Dec 11, 2009 1:57 PM CST up reply actions  

Not sure.

But throw in the convenience/comfort of his palatial ranch and it’s probably a no-brainer.

Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.

by daver on Dec 11, 2009 2:04 PM CST up reply actions  

a dollar goes further in Texas than Illinois is the point

and when dealing with rich people who want every nickle and dime they can get, it can play a role in their decison

baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out

by Cubbie-Tim on Dec 11, 2009 2:07 PM CST up reply actions  

it snows here

once every few years for an hour or so

(truth in sarcasm lol)

baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out

by Cubbie-Tim on Dec 11, 2009 2:08 PM CST up reply actions  

i just checked the cost of living calculator
A salary of $18,000,000 in Houston, Texas should increase to $26,544,056 in Chicago, Illinois

baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out

by Cubbie-Tim on Dec 11, 2009 2:05 PM CST up reply actions  

that's interesting ...

I wonder if the calculator works the same way for lower incomes? In other words, it seems to me that the factors associated with cost of living would be less significant the more money you make. Maybe that’s bad logic …

by elgato on Dec 11, 2009 2:09 PM CST up reply actions  

i think the link kinda flat lines the difference

since most looking at it wold be making > $100k i would assume

baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out

by Cubbie-Tim on Dec 11, 2009 2:15 PM CST up reply actions  

no prob

thats what i am here for lol

baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out

by Cubbie-Tim on Dec 11, 2009 2:19 PM CST up reply actions  

what is the income tax in Chicago

also, the cost of living in Texas is MUCH less. last time I checked, to move back home from Austin (which is the most expensive city in Texas to live by cost of living) I would need close to a 35% increase. There are much less taxes, fees, etc in Texas and that makes a huge difference i am sure.

baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out

by Cubbie-Tim on Dec 11, 2009 2:02 PM CST up reply actions  

You know who I hate?

You ever watch that ad for the credit card with all the rewards points where the husband dreams of taking a vacation or getting a TV and the wife has blown all the points on a dress?

I hate her. Seriously. I hate that woman.

There is no such thing as an ugly female breast

by Worf on Dec 11, 2009 8:53 AM CST reply actions  

Dan, stop posting from Worf's account.

I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT

Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson

by Shanghai Badger on Dec 11, 2009 9:04 AM CST up reply actions  

I mean it. I hate her.

I might actually be in jail for domestic violence if my wife pulled that.

There is no such thing as an ugly female breast

by Worf on Dec 11, 2009 9:07 AM CST up reply actions  

Brian Giles?

Pshaw

My wife does that, we’re somewhere between Chris Brown and O.J

There is no such thing as an ugly female breast

by Worf on Dec 11, 2009 9:25 AM CST up reply actions  

Just wondering

What difference does it make if she uses points or cash?

I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT

Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson

by Shanghai Badger on Dec 11, 2009 9:26 AM CST up reply actions  

I don't doubt that

It’s the nonsequitur that is Dan-like.

I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT

Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson

by Shanghai Badger on Dec 11, 2009 9:25 AM CST up reply actions  

There's really not that huge of a divide in their values.

Soriano’s $WAR over the life of the contract was $33.2M.

Lee’s $WAR has been $39.5M.

The main reason for that difference was Soriano’s poor 2009 showing – he was worth -$3.3M this year. If he had even had a mediocre season, both players would have provided equivalent value over their contracts so far.

Honestly, I think that Lee will age a lot more poorly than Soriano. He’s just put on so many pounds that in any other left field in baseball (other than maybe Boston) he’d be an immense liability.

by Wreckard on Dec 11, 2009 9:40 AM CST reply actions  

He has a full NTC

It’s possible he’s not willing to go anywhere else.

by Wreckard on Dec 11, 2009 9:54 AM CST up reply actions  

as I alluded to above ...

it’s not like Soriano is a magician in left.

by elgato on Dec 11, 2009 9:56 AM CST up reply actions  

Look at the numbers

Compared to Lee, he has been (apart from his miserable 2009).

by Wreckard on Dec 11, 2009 11:27 AM CST up reply actions  

The durability factor

favored Soriano. Until he became a Cub, he never played in less than 156 games except 2004, when he played in 145 for the Rangers.

His high water mark in three Cubs seasons was 135.

by Clark Addison on Dec 11, 2009 10:48 PM CST reply actions  

Interesting early take on the Soriano signing

http://chicagoist.com/2006/11/21/cubs_sign_soriano.php

Look on the bright side. Cubs could have done what author suggested and signed Zito and/or Schmidt as well….Luckily we wound up with Marquis. Man, those were the days. Ramirez money on top of Wood money followed by Soriano and Marquis.

New owners will have to spend on pitching? Love to see it.

Would have loved some Lee squared, but Cubs were trying to replace a lead-off hitter in Pierre. Also remember the White Sox had recently won the series when they traded Lee…for basically a leadoff hitter. I can’t blame Hendry for going with Soriano over Lee. And the mission wasn’t to sign Soriano wisely, it was to sign Soriano.

"I'd rather hit home runs you don't have to run as hard." -- Dave Kingman

by BucknerKongCardenal on Dec 12, 2009 10:29 PM CST reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to Bleed Cubbie Blue, the Chicago Cubs blog for the SB Nation, created on February 9, 2005 by Al Yellon

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Img_0001_small
Value of Various Plate Approaches
284_small
Cubs' Fantasy Camp 2012 as seen by a Player's Wife
P7200073_small
Randy Hundley Fantasy Camp 2012

Recent FanPosts

Small
Jazz Up Your Recs!
Jeffnewwork_small
What I Expect From The Cubs In 2012
Wrigley_scoreboard_small
What To Do With Alfonso Soriano
Small
A quick update from the 2012 concessions orientation
Caray_small
Is there any FA left worth going after?
Marvin_the_martian_small
Thoughts On Gerardo Concepcion: Trust The Scouts
Star_small
What if Hendry were still our GM instead of TheoJed?

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

FanShots

Quick hits of video, photos, quotes, chats, links and lists that you find around the web.

Recommended FanShots

Nice article about Ernie Banks
Yankees Hire Jim Hendry
Dale Sveum Meets Early Arrivals At Camp Buss

Recent FanShots

Cubs vs. Rangers In Las Vegas Tickets On Sale Monday 2/13
Hoyer driving to Spring Training with his dog
Hoyer-Soriano likely a Cub to start 2012, Garza extension talk a possibility
Law's Top 100 prospects
Ranking the Farm Systems
WGN Releases Season Schedule
MLB.com Cubs Top 20 prospect list
A position ranking of the NL central by ESPN.
Draft Pick Currency and the Cubs
Yoenis Cespedes

+ New FanShot All FanShots >

Featured Poll

Poll
How many games will the Cubs win in 2012?

  10 votes | Results

It Is Only...

It Is Only...

Cubs By The Numbers

Cubs By The Numbers is a history of the ballclub by uniform number, but the biographies help trace the history of our beloved team in a new way. For everyone who's a Cubs fan, anyone who ever wore the uniform is like family. Cubs By The Numbers reintroduces readers to some of their long-lost ancestors, even ones they think they already know.

Click here to order your copy, available now!

Recent Stories in Ticket Exchanges


Managing Editor

Alyellontoppscard_small Al Yellon

Front Page Contributors

Primary_fc_small Josh Timmers

Marvin_the_martian_small Shawn Domagal-Goldman

Other Contributors

Dsc_0139_small David Sameshima

Toonmike_small Mike Bojanowski