Cubs Spring Training Belongs In Arizona. Here's Why.
by Al Yellon on Dec 14, 2009 8:00 AM CST
in Chicago Cubs News
Email
Print
Photo courtesy Mesa Convention & Visitors Bureau
New Cubs owner Tom Ricketts professes to be a die-hard Cubs fan, with respect for the club's history and traditions. He's pledged to keep the current atmosphere at Wrigley Field while upgrading facilities for players and fans.
Why, then, would Ricketts even consider leaving Arizona for Florida spring training? Arizona and the Cubs have a long history -- dating back 57 years, to 1952 -- but it's not just the history that makes Arizona the only place Tom Ricketts and Co. should consider building their grand new spring training complex. Follow me after the jump to find out why.
The Cubs trained at the Wrigley-owned Catalina Island off the California coast from the mid-1920's through 1951. In 1952, they moved to Arizona and have been there since, except for 1966 when they moved for one year to Long Beach, California. They have trained at several different sites in Arizona. From 1952-65 they were at Rendezvous Park in Mesa. When they returned to Arizona in 1967 they used the facilities at the old Scottsdale Stadium (now, with a new stadium, the spring home of the Giants), and moved to the current location in 1979. The Ho Ho Kam Park that the Cubs currently use for spring training is the second stadium with that name on the site on Center St. in Mesa; it was completed in 1997.
The White Sox and Dodgers moved into the mega-complex called Camelback Ranch last year and the Cubs, justifiably so, would like to have a similar complex to call their own. The Cubs outdraw every team in the Cactus League and also hold the attendance record for any spring training team, Florida or Arizona.
Why should the Cubs stay in Arizona? Let's examine some of the reasons.
Proximity: of the 15 teams that train in Arizona (as of next spring, when the Reds will become the 15th team in the Cactus League), 13 of them are in the Phoenix metropolitan area. The longest distance between any two of those parks is 45 miles, the drive from Ho Ho Kam Park in Mesa to Surprise Stadium in Surprise. The Diamondbacks and Rockies will finish their final season in Tucson in 2010 and then move to this complex off Loop 101 near Scottsdale in 2011 -- at that point, all 15 teams will be within less than an hour's drive. Meanwhile, from Naples, Florida, the proposed site for a Cubs training complex in Florida, the two closest teams (Twins and Red Sox) are 40 miles away. The next closest (Rays, in Port Charlotte) is nearly 80 miles away; next closest after that are the Orioles' Ed Smith Park in Sarasota and the Pirates' McKechnie Park in Bradenton, both approximately 120 miles from Naples. The other ten teams training in Florida are 150 miles or more from Naples. This would provide logistical problems for the Cubs playing more than just three to five different teams in spring games, instead of the fourteen other teams they can now play with easy drives. It also would mean, as Jim Hendry noted, trouble for scheduling spring games for Cubs minor leaguers. Now, it's an easy bus ride (less than 30 minutes) for Giants or A's minor leaguers to drive to Mesa to play Cubs minor leaguers, or vice versa. Not so in Florida.
History and tradition: not something to so easily dismiss. Not only do thousands of former Chicagoans live in the Phoenix area, many of them have winter homes there -- among them, many Cubs employees and players. There's a reason you hear so many cheers for the Cubs when they play the Diamondbacks in Chase Field during the regular season -- that's all the ex-Chicagoans living there who go to root for the Cubs. It's one of the reasons the D'backs scheduled two exhibition games vs. the Cubs there next April -- they know they'll draw thousands of Cubs fans. Chicagoans seem to have a more natural affinity to the West rather than the Southeast -- there are far more former Midwesterners who retire to and winter in Arizona than Florida, which draws its "snowbirds" primarily from the Northeast.
Player evaluation: this is a false reason raised last year by Lou Piniella, who claims it is "easier" to evaluate players in spring training in Florida. Admittedly, the lower humidity and higher altitude in the Phoenix area makes the Cactus League more of a hitters' league than the Grapefruit League. You're telling me that a man who has spent more than 45 years in baseball, 22 years as a manager, can't adjust for this? Of Lou's 22 years in managing, more than half -- 13 -- have been spent managing teams (the Cubs and Mariners) who trained in Arizona. Ten of those 13 seasons were winning ones, and six of those ten (four with Seattle and two with the Cubs) resulted in playoff berths. I'd say Lou did pretty well with "player evaluation" in Arizona.
Weather: obviously, the two places both have good, but very different, climates. Arizona's weather in March is almost universally perfect. I have been to spring training in Arizona 19 times since 1984; I don't have an exact count of games I've attended there, but it must be over 150. In all that time I can only remember two games that were rained out, and the rest of the time there is unlimited sunshine and temperatures generally in the mid-80's. (I would, however, not recommend night games in the Phoenix area in mid-March, when it can be coolish in the upper 50's and lower 60's, and one game last March had to be called due to high winds.) Florida's temperatures are similar, but there's a much greater chance that a cold front will blow through the state in March and bring rain.
Team performance: let me once and for all explode the myth that's being promoted by some that "World Series winners train in Florida". It is undeniably true that in the Wild Card era -- the last 15 seasons -- 12 of the winners of the World Series have trained in Florida (the exceptions: 2001 Diamondbacks, 2002 Angels, 2005 White Sox). First of all, until 1998 the Cactus League had only eight of the then-28 teams -- so you would expect, mathematically, that only a little over a quarter of championships would come from Arizona-based spring teams, since only a little over a quarter of the teams trained there. (Here's a comprehensive history of Arizona spring training.) Arizona spring teams totalled ten from 1998-2002 with the addition of the expansion D'backs and White Sox; the Royals and Rangers moved to Surprise in 2003 and the Cactus League was 12 teams from 2003-2008, and in 2009 the Dodgers and Indians made the Arizona total 14. The 2010 addition of the Reds to the Cactus League makes next spring, for the first time ever, the first year that an equal number of teams (15) will train in Florida and Arizona. Finally, of the 15 World Series winners from 1995-2009, seven of them (nearly half) are the Yankees and Red Sox. I can't imagine anyone seriously arguing that those teams won the World Series because of their spring training site.
Finally, the last team to move from Arizona to Florida for spring training and not come back was the Red Sox -- in 1965 (the Indians left Arizona for Florida in 1993, but returned in 2009). There are many reasons they're all moving in one direction -- all the factors I've explained above. The Cubs are the #1 draw in Arizona and the engine that drives the Cactus League. Would they really want to move to an isolated outpost on the southwest coast of Florida and be third banana there behind the Yankees and Red Sox?
Tom Ricketts, it would be a colossal mistake to relocate the Cubs away from Arizona for spring training. The people running the show in Mesa want you there and clearly understand how much the Cubs mean to the Cactus League and the Valley. You do deserve to have a spring training complex second to none -- and I believe the city of Mesa will build that for you.
I'll have more on this later this week.
161 comments
|
2 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
team performance
I would be interested to really look at this in a reasoned, way. The statistical variance is way too weighted to discount it as you have.
There must be other factors that are attributive and non attributive but something is telling.
I will say remove the Yankees from the sample and look deeper.
Piniella: "This is a tougher job than I thought it would be, I'm going to be honest with you."
as for the emotional tug of the people in Mesa
that does not come into a decision matrix of this nature, it is and should be what is best for the organization, and product on the field——period.
Piniella: "This is a tougher job than I thought it would be, I'm going to be honest with you."
Ask yourself why teams have been moving to Arizona since the late 1990's.
… this includes teams from the eastern time zone like the Indians and Reds.
The answer is that all the factors I mentioned are better in Arizona.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Thanks for the picture and making me feel bad!
Ice this morning and snow up to my you know what. The picture is where is always sit at spring training and oh do I miss some warm weather right now.
Good points but I think this is all posturing. We had to listen from offers from Florida and it probably is driving up the stakes for Mesa but we will end up with the best facility because of this, and they will be in the Mesa area. The weather in AZ is so much more compatible with baseball in March with hardly ever a chance for rain. I sure don’t want to see us in Florida and I think we’re pretty safe where we are. I hope Ricketts agrees.
This is only the beginning....Lou Pinella end of '07 season and Chicago Transit Authority (the band when they were really good).
I hope you're right.
Just wanted to add my voice to the chorus.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
This might be heretical and selfish...
…but wouldn’t spring training not a good time to play exhibition series in countries other than Canada and the US?
Well, I never heard it before, but it sounds uncommon nonsense.
- The Mock Turtle, Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll -
Typing Fail...
…training not be a good time to play…
Well, I never heard it before, but it sounds uncommon nonsense.
- The Mock Turtle, Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll -
Hmm...
Weather, Tradition, White Sox, Proximity, Brewers, Reds on the way. All makes sense to me.
Factor in the Cardinal fans are wintering elsewhere and I’m good to go.
at daver's request, Let's frontload this B**ch!
Going to quibble
with one of your main points.
Player evaluation: this is a false reason raised last year by Lou Piniella
This is not something simply raised by Lou, its something that has been around for quite some time. This is something baseball people have pointed out for years, too. The funny thing is that you say, on one hand, that its a false premise, then exactly one sentence later you quantify why this is the case.
As I said some time ago on this subject, I don’t care in the least where the Cubs train. I really don’t. I respect that you want the Cubs to stay in Mesa, but I do think that you could acknowledge, that regardless of how significant or insignificant it is, there is some benefit to Florida. Is it big enough to overcome everything else? Probably not, but I think you undermine your argument when you simply dismiss something as false that many baseball people acknowledge as a factor.
I acknowledge the reason in the next sentence.
Admittedly, the lower humidity and higher altitude in the Phoenix area makes the Cactus League more of a hitters’ league than the Grapefruit League.
Seriously, you think intelligent baseball people can’t adjust for this? And, like I said, Lou’s managed Cactus League teams for 13 seasons — and made the playoffs six times in those 13 seasons. He’s done pretty well with player evaluation in the Cactus League.
I just don’t think that “benefit” makes as much difference as “baseball people” say it does.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
All I am saying...
… is that it is a benefit. I am not saying its a big benefit and I am not saying that it makes a big difference. But it does provide a benefit and its not something that Lou just made up, its something that baseball people have said about Arizona spring training for quite some time.
Look, I am not trying to bring down your pro Arizona argument and I certainly don’t believe that this is a factor that even comes close to overriding the other factors at play. I just think that you can acknowledge the existence of something and minimize its impact instead of declaring it a false premise.
Bottom line, IMO, is that the Cubs are going to play wherever the Ricketts family wants them to play. IIRC, the Sox moved to Arizona several years back because Jerry Reinsdorf has a home in Scottsdale. It would be interesting to see if Ricketts vacations in Florida, because its possible that would have a large impact on this decision. In the end, however, Ricketts likely will go wherever the biggest financial benefit is.
I don't believe....
… that it’s as much a benefit as baseball people say it is, nor should it be a determining factor.
Again, ask yourself why teams have been flocking to Arizona for the last ten years if this makes such a big difference.
I agree that money will be much more of a determining factor.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
because of the money...
… thats why teams have been flocking to Arizona. The AZ tourist tax (or whatever) has allowed the area to build new stadiums while Florida has been way to slow to respond. Had Florida been able to compete in terms of renovating and/or building new stadiums, it might be a totally different situation.
Exactly....if talent evaluation in AZ
…was such a problem why would they have the Atizona fall league there? Isn’t that one of the top leagues to evaluate players who are about to make the next step?
by JB 23 on Dec 14, 2009 9:12 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
I'm not trying to be an ass...
… but please take a few minutes to read what I write. I did not say it was “such a problem” or a big problem or whatever. I said it existed. Thats it. Baseball people have said that player evaluation is better in Florida than Arizona. Nowhere did I attempt to quantify it.
Do you have a cite or quote...
… regarding which “baseball people” have said this?
The only place I’ve ever heard this is from Lou Piniella.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Honestly, Al,
I don’t. I could give anecdotal evidence of people like Steve Stone and Jimmy Piersol back in the day when he was a baseball analyst on WSCR giving this opinion and I’ve heard it from others. They’ve detailed the conditions as being tougher on breaking ball pitchers as well as the fact that every year someone like Micah Hoffpauir or Scott McClain has an all-world year in the Cactus League. Add to that the “high sky” and the rock hard infields that populate the Cactus League.
Look, I’m not saying that this is a big or a small issue. Thats up to each person to decide on their own. But its something that baseball people believe exists and, IMO, its not fair to say that its a false premise.
Your comment about Hoffpauir & McClain...
… and guys like that is relevant. However, you’re saying that a manager who’s been in baseball for more than 40 years can’t figure that out? Or that there aren’t Grapefruit League All-Stars who also tear up spring training and can’t hit once April begins?
As I said, I haven’t heard this from others, but I believe you if you say you have. I just don’t think it’s as big an issue as Lou Piniella wanted to make it.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
please stop jumping to conclusions
However, you’re saying that a manager who’s been in baseball for more than 40 years can’t figure that out?
Honestly, this is a tad frustrating. You’re putting words in my mouth and more than altering the sentiments of my posts. Nowhere have I said that Piniella or anyone else can’t figure it out. Nowhere have I said that this should be a determining factor… quite the opposite. I’ve said that this isn’t as important as the other factors. I guess I just feel like you’re dismissing something that some people feel is valid. I don’t see why you can’t possibly acknowledge that this may exist, however the fact that we have professional baseball people overcomes this.
If it's not an important factor...
… why bring it up in the first place?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
first off...
you’re the one that brought it up in what I felt was not a fair representation.
Secondly, I didn’t say its not important, I said its not as important as other factors. That doesn’t make it irrelevant. My issue here is that I think your representation is biased. You want the Cubs in AZ, and thats fine, but I believe that you’ve built your argument to reach a conclusion and at least in the instance of “player evaluation” you’ve not been totally balanced. I’m more taking an issue with how you’re approaching this argument. Constantly people here are bemoaning the mainstream media and right now I don’t think you’re living up to the standard that you those individuals up to.
OK, maybe I was too harsh with you.
I still don’t think it has been stated by enough “baseball people” to make it a relevant factor. So far you have cited two people to go along with Lou. Truth be told, I had never heard this mentioned before Lou said something.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I pretty much agree with dmlichte on all this
I too don’t have any cites at the ready, but I’m surprised that you’ve never heard of this before. I don’t think people have gone out of their way and conducted scientific experiments & intense meteorological research, but anecdotally speaking, it’s been around for awhile.
I also agree that while it’s a factor, it’s not the factor, so untold importance should not be placed on it.
And finally, I agree that it’s not so much what you’re saying, it’s how you’re saying it when you present your arguments. Your mind was made up before you typed word one, and it comes across that way.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
I'm always open to discussion.
But just as you have your opinions, I have mine. This is one of them.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Nothing wrong with an opinion
I think dml and ballhawk’s point is that you worded facts to support your opinion – something that you don’t usually do. And if they (or I) didn’t think that you were open minded, we wouldn’t bother telling you that.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Dec 14, 2009 4:28 PM CST up reply actions
Isn't that what you usually do to support an opinion?
Try to find facts that back you up?
I admit that I feel a certain way about this issue; if it came across as a bit heavy-handed, that was not intended.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Find facts, yes
However, I while I won’t say that you manipulated them, you did guide them a little.
FWIW, I agree with a lot of what you said, and I think a move to FL would be short-sighted.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Dec 14, 2009 4:39 PM CST up reply actions
High sky?
High sky and rock hard infields, and that’s it? I live out here in New Mexico, in albuquerque to be exact and I don’t know what “high sky” has to do with it. If they’re referring to lack of humidity then put the balls in a humidor…..as for rock hard infields, that’s a grounds crew issue. You can change the makeup of the field anyway you want. Florida isn’t going to be any better, and quite frankly you would hear the same argument in reverse, that there’s too much humidity, the ball doesn’t travel, the ground is too soft, yada yada yada.
by nmcubsfan on Dec 14, 2009 12:54 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Can you cite or quote anything that contradicts it?
You dismiss it as false outright without really providing any evidence of your own. Given that Pinella has years of experience and has taken teams through spring training in both locations, I guess I’d give him the benefit of the doubt.
I can't, no.
But again, Lou had more successful teams training in AZ than FL. You’d think he’d know how to handle it.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
The Reds WS team?
Yes. So? He had better teams in Seattle.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
He
had better teams here in Chicago and both the Cubs and Seattle have something in common, no rings, the same cant be said by Cincy.
Attributing a World Series win to the Reds...
… because they trained in Florida is just silly.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Come
on down to Florida, we’ll get you a seat if one’s available and we’ll even reserve you spot on the beach for two hours so you wont burn yourself, it sure beats looking at a bunch of rocks.
you did the same
suggesting Lou had more success with teams while in arizona
by DartmouthCubsFan on Dec 14, 2009 3:54 PM CST up reply actions
that's a silly method
not all teams are created equal
i’m willing to bet the yankees do better than the royals this year and i’m going to guess it has nothing to do with where they play spring training games
by DartmouthCubsFan on Dec 14, 2009 3:54 PM CST up reply actions
Being Selfish
This is my first post so be sensitive! When I heard the Ricketts were considering Florida for Spring Training I was ecstatic. I live in North Carolina with many other Cub’s fans and it has been a dream to watch them in Spring Training, without paying an arm and a leg of course. A short flight to Florida would be ideal for all the Cub’s fans in NC!
I fully understand.
I live in Chicago and FL is usually an easier flight than AZ. That said, vacations in AZ are usually a better value becuse the weather is more consistent.
at daver's request, Let's frontload this B**ch!
My reasons for Arizona
are selfish. Mesa is a six hour drive from San Diego. I’ve gone every year since 1999.
It's a pretty drive from LA to Mesa
Takes a little while, but I enjoy it.
"This next song... it's about the White Sox. It's called: F*** Em'." - Eddie Vedder
I want Naples, Italy - only a 12 hour drive for me.
Well, I never heard it before, but it sounds uncommon nonsense.
- The Mock Turtle, Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll -
by eths on Dec 14, 2009 12:02 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
I vote for
Catalina. Especially after watching the Comcast Sports Network special “Island Dreaming with the Cubs” and watching ARam and Marshall play beach games with fans.
Island beach sounds fun. And Disneyland is close.
What’s AZ got? A big hole in the ground?
I did a good amount of searching on the interwebs
and finally was able to determine where the fields were on Google Earth. Pretty cool, and much more difficult to find than I imagined.
Sadly, Airport-in-the-Sky wouldn’t be able to service so many people… and the snooty nerds in Avalon would pitch a fit :)
"This next song... it's about the White Sox. It's called: F*** Em'." - Eddie Vedder
Have you ever been to Arizona?
"WGN, Channel 9 Cubs Baseball, Excitingly, Importantly, Dramatically Yours." - Jack Brickhouse
Warning! I may get flogged/lynched for saying this.
I admit that I’m only 19, soon 20 years old, and I’ve only been into baseball for about 3 years now. But people use the tradition argument way too much. It’s cool to have some tradition, but I think that it is way overused in the argument against many things: like Instant Replay and this for example. I agree that ST should stay in AR, though.
Spring Training in Arkansas?
That;s a new one
Do they teach geography and the abbreviations of the states anymore in scholl? LOL
"WGN, Channel 9 Cubs Baseball, Excitingly, Importantly, Dramatically Yours." - Jack Brickhouse
Higher Education hard at work.
It’s all good, I love that the Cubs are from IA.
That’s not true!!! WHY THE F*CK WOULD YOU SAY THAT YOU AHOLE!! Ok maybe your right but you gotta give a little something here for it to work. I don’t know what I’m going to do this is the worst thing I’ve ever read, this day could not get any worse. Fine, F*ck it, you’re right.
by Ditkavsworld
Actually
the Cubs in their very early history did have a Spring Training stint in Arkansas!
Not that I would ever wish them to give up a big "Z" for a Little Rock "R"!
"Someday…"
by GeneticCubsFan on Dec 14, 2009 12:00 PM CST up reply actions
This is all about money...
…and also may have something to do with Ricketts wanting spring training close to a place his family frequents as well.
So far, it’s looking like Ricketts has some firm opinions on what he wants to see happen; from denying eating dough so far with Bradley, raising ticket prices after a shitty season, and now a potential ST move.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
Many of those positions aren't very fan-friendly.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Are you changing your position on Ricketts already?
You were pretty supportive of him when the process began… has your position changed based on how he’s handled Bradley and this spring training thing (and perhaps the new advertising space inside Wrigley, between the field and the casino rooftop)?
I guess i’m inclined to wait and see (I was a Mark Cuban supporter), but his patience on Bradley has actually quite impressed me.
I anxiously await the reasonable trading of Milton Bradley.
Dum spiro spero... | Follow me on twitter or else: @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Dec 14, 2009 12:18 PM CST up reply actions
Patience on Bradley?
This isn’t something he should have been patient with. He should have made a statement — regardless of the cost — and told Cubs fans that this isn’t someone he wanted on his team, considering his GM had made that statement by sending MB home last September.
By being “patient”, he has hamstrung his GM on making other deals that could help the 2010 Cubs.
It’s too early to say things positive or negative about Ricketts going forward. However, his actions so far haven’t really been very fan-friendly.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
The Bradley / patience argument aside...
… as that is more of a question of opinion than one of fact… what else has he done that hasn’t been fan friendly?
Ticket price changes seemed to get a mixed reaction, and i’m still not sure i fully understand how it affected STH’s. Were people more upset about this than i realized?
The new advertising space in Wrigley seemed to get a mixed reaction, but being that what we see now is clearly temporary, i’m not sure how else i could be judged.
The leaving in of the troughs was, obviously, well received. :-)
Player moves thus far have gotten pretty mixed reviews as well.
What other actions has he had a hand in making thus far?
I anxiously await the reasonable trading of Milton Bradley.
Dum spiro spero... | Follow me on twitter or else: @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Dec 14, 2009 12:56 PM CST up reply actions
The ticket price increases...
… were done in a stealth manner. I understand why they wanted to split the tax out — they’re not happy with the city increases — but this wound up confusing a lot of people, myself included. They really should have held the line after the mediocre 2009 season.
The putting up of the boards in the bleachers was unnecessary. If they wanted to show advertisers how their ad would look — Photoshops would have done just as good a job.
I’m taking a wait-and-see attitude to see what else happens this offseason. So far — my review is mixed.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I rarely go to games...
…but I thought the ticket price hike was a bad bad move considering the circumstances.
With the blind support the fans have given this team, I just thought it was a real greedy move to do that right out of the box, regardless of whether he is spending money to upgrade the shitters.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
The thing
Is, it’s someone you don’t want on the team. Ricketts might have his on opinion on the matter, and if wanted Bradley off the team so badly . . .
One baseball game, he came to the plate and heard a woman in the crowd shout to the pitcher, "I'll make you a chocolate cake if you strike out that 'so-and-so'!" Says Strong: "I hit that ball out of the park. Then I looked at her like, 'Do I get a cake now?' "
on = own
One baseball game, he came to the plate and heard a woman in the crowd shout to the pitcher, "I'll make you a chocolate cake if you strike out that 'so-and-so'!" Says Strong: "I hit that ball out of the park. Then I looked at her like, 'Do I get a cake now?' "
From all we have heard...
… it appears Cubs management doesn’t want him on the team either, but can’t get anyone to take him without eating at least $12m of contract.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
That may be true but I haven’t seen that they want him gone as bad.
One baseball game, he came to the plate and heard a woman in the crowd shout to the pitcher, "I'll make you a chocolate cake if you strike out that 'so-and-so'!" Says Strong: "I hit that ball out of the park. Then I looked at her like, 'Do I get a cake now?' "
i'd argue the gm
hamstrung himself on this one…
by DartmouthCubsFan on Dec 14, 2009 3:56 PM CST up reply actions
I think it is waaay to early to start snarking about the Ricketts regime
While some of the early moves may not be immediately popular, they could, down the road they could turn out to be positive for the team. I would think one should give the new ownership at least the famous 100 days or an entire “first” season before “passing judgement” and “dissing” the organization or parts thereof i.e. harshly vocalizing disagreement, disregard, disrespect, distrust, disfavour, disparagement, disdain, dislike, dissonance, discombobulation, dissidence, disaffirmation, disloyalty, disappointment, disbelief, disavowal, disaffiliation, disassociation, etc.
Please understand, I am saying that your comment is erroneous or unfair, however: Principiis obsta sero medicina paratur.
Well, I never heard it before, but it sounds uncommon nonsense.
- The Mock Turtle, Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll -
What the blogmeister said...
+100. AZ forever.
by bison on Dec 14, 2009 10:07 AM CST via mobile reply actions
Although talk about Florida may be nothing more than a ploy...
to negotiate a better deal in AZ, it would be great to see the new owner move and, in the process, take a big step to break the pathology of the Wrigley years. Piniella’s right: how could training a continent away from our key competition for the last 90 years have helped the team in any way?
Training in Catalina was for the convenience of Wrigley I, to promote his resort and the PCL franchise he owned in LA. Phoenix/Mesa, in turn, satisfied the whim of Wrigley II, who owned the Arizona Biltmore and kept his winter home there.
Let’s hope the Ricketts clan has lots of ties to Florida. I’m looking forward to the move.
Well, let's see.
The Cubs trained in Catalina from 1926-51. In that time they won five pennants. Maybe they should move back there, if “key competition” is the issue.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Details like spring training didn't matter as much back then...
when only the Giants and Cardinals were competitive. Like the Stonehams, the Wrigleys could depend on other teams to help shore up the league’s two most valuable franchises in Chicago and New York. And when players such as Alexander, Hornsby, Wilson, Stephenson, Klein and Dean were made available, few other owners could afford their contracts.
Of course, those opportunities began to disappear in the late 30’s, as the innovations of Branch Rickey and Larry MacPhail made the rest of the league competitive. By ’45, even the Phillies and Pirates had owners who were as rich as Phil Wrigley.
Although I don’t believe Florida spring training is the single key to improvement, it can’t hurt – both in terms of player evaluation within the organization, and in scouting the rest of the majors. Also, it likely will increase the Cubs’ nationwide fan base and bottom line – all good things on the road to the World Series.
this post convinced me of all the reasons it should stay in AZ....
….but I wouldn’t mind it in Fla., only b/c I could drive there easier and fly quicker back and forth.
A woman's guess is more accurate than a man's certainty.--Rudyard Kipling
THE JURY IS STILL OUT.....
on the Rickett’s family . I have reveived some positive and negative feedback . Diehard fans who contacted Tom by email have not received a response back . Hope he does what is right for the ball club . I don’t think Cubs Nation will be taken into account with his decision . With Florida much closer for me I still prefer the Cactus League . Will the team move from the Cactus League ?? If they do expect some deep wounds in Mesa this March .
I wouldn't hold my breath on a response from Ricketts
I’m sure he’s getting plenty of e-mail and I’m sure he has plenty of things to do.
By the way, pet peeve time. There is no apostrophe – the family name is not “Rickett”, it’s Ricketts.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Dec 14, 2009 11:28 AM CST up reply actions
Fla please
I think you slanted the facts, or ignored them. As a 365 Cub fan, I rember some Chicago-esk awful weather in AZ. It can happen. I like Florida but but, I think the Cubs would come out of Spring Training much more ready to start the season if they are in Florida. That is what counts. Breaking balls like the regular season. Clouds in the sky that are realistic to the major league schedule for following the ball. The regular high sky that AZ has turns a lot of the spring games into a joke. Maybe that is one of the reasons why the Cubs outfield play has always been crap. Bigger parks because of the thin air don’t help either.
I've lived here in Chandler for 9+ years now
and really can only think of a couple of HoHoKam rainouts and the game the Cubs played in Scottsdale with the high winds. There have been a handful of chilly days and that’s about it.
I don’t buy the “clouds in the sky that are realistic to the major league schedule for following the ball” you opined. Actually, going from the high sky here to the mostly cloudy skies any team will see the first couple of months of the season is helpful. Plus, they play in one “climate”, if you will only 10 days in a row at the most when they have an extended homestand.
On the road, they are in a different city every 3 or 4 days, different sky, wind, sunfields, etc. Thet are professionals and I think that all the years of playing HS, college, minor league ball has gotten them to the point where the adjustments they make day to day because of the weather or sky are automatic. Plus, the veterans only play a few innings a game the first 3 weeks of ST anyway.
Honestly, I don’t think where they play matters to them or affects how players are judged during ST by the coaching staff. ST is big business and the $ will prevail. I think all the reasons Al has outlined are true and on point. I constantly run into ex-Chicagoans here wanting to talk about any Chicago team, but especially the Cubs. Like Al said, when the Cubs are here to play the D Backs, the attendance is easily 20% or more Cubs fans.
"WGN, Channel 9 Cubs Baseball, Excitingly, Importantly, Dramatically Yours." - Jack Brickhouse
Please Define
This “high sky” and what that actually means…..You want clouds? Az has plenty of them…..and how do breaking balls like the regular season? Not to mention how is training in sunny florida and learning how to throw your breaking ball there going to help you when you have to come back to cold windy wrigley for the first 2 months of the season?
I can handle the D'backs and Rockies
leaving Tucson but the Cubs leaving AZ would be just terrible. One of the big problems the Cubs had with Tucson was the players not wanting to travel the 100 miles so only a handful of regulars would come down here to play. The travel in Florida would be worse and what would they do with all the prima donnas then?
A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings. ~Earl Wilson
What a cogent clear post on why the Cubs MUST keep their Spring Home in AZ
Al, you summed it up perfectly. I might have hit harder that the White Sox not only moved from Florida to Tucson, then fled Tucson to the Greater Phoenix Area. Reinsdorf knows how to read real estate trends and how to “hold up” municipalities to get a stadium.
Sheesh, is he next Rickett’s change, cancelling the 7th inning stretch? Pink slipping Ted Butterman and the Cubs Quintet?
Three thumbs up Al! Add this to your long list of "Best Ever" posts!
I hope that the Ricketts family will do the right thing by way of Cub fans and remain in Arizona forever – just like Wrigley Field!
Furthermore, the Yankees AND Red Sox had stints of calling Arizona their spring training home. And at least the Yankees were not hurt by living among the cacti and desert people!
Ted Williams even chose a company in AZ to preserve his head in case science makes a future breakthrough and he pulls off the greatest comeback ever known in sports history! Although I’ve read that this “dry ice preservative company" is not "handling things” so well!
I HATE the humidity and Florida environment altogether. The games I attended to see the Cubs clinch in 2008 in Miami Gardens in the worse excuse for a ballpark was a miserable experience, and not because the Cubs got swept! Despite the fact that I was there visiting with my brother, and had an opportunity to be a part of Cubs history, that environment was not remotely of any MLB quality or even baseball-like!
Mesa is a great city with wonderfully friendly people, and unique family-owned restaurants and businesses. Yes, they also have franchised food, but the desert climate and beauty is unique and an inviting relief from the end of a typically harsh Chicago winter.
Just on the basis of Don and Charlie’s restaurant in Scottsdale, the Cubs would be abandoning an established popular and high-quality attraction for fans, as if they decided to close down all of Harry Carey’s restaurants in Chicago.
The HoHoKams are also a community charitable organization, and their partnership with the Cubs speaks volumes about the kind of organization that the Cubs should represent and promote as part of the Ricketts family’s core values: maintaining the uniqueness and high road of their new Cubs ownership.
Ricketts family: PLEASE do the right thing from the get go, and heed Al’s persuasive, logically compelling, and passionate position for "staying the course" – in AZ!
Otherwise I fear you will be haunting and alienating Cub fans as the opening line from a pop song once lamented, "I’ve been to the desert on a horse with no name…"
"Someday…"
by GeneticCubsFan on Dec 14, 2009 11:52 AM CST reply actions
Personal "Brand" Loyalty
I mentioned Don & Charlie’s Steakhouse Restaurant located in Scottsdale, AZ in my comment above:
http://www.donandcharlies.com/
The “Don” of this duo is Don Carson who also owns and operates Carson’s Ribs in Chicago and the ‘burbs.
In 2007, the year before my youngest (adult) daughter gave birth to her first child (a beautiful baby girl, Abigail), we attended her first ever Spring Training together in Mesa. This was only my second trip to see the Cubs in the Valley of the Sun, and I was very much looking forward to sharing a wonderful first time experience with my daughter.
Among some of the many highlights that we will cherish forever, includes a phenomenal dinner and visit to Don & Charlie’s. When you walk in, there is a large impressive wall which is a glass “baseballs case” filled with autographed baseballs from past and current players. Among these are Babe Ruth, Ted Williams, Lou Gehrig, Ernie Banks, Stan Musial, Charlie Grimm, Stan Hack, Hack Wilson, Ron Santo, Fergie Jenkins, Billy Williams, Kenny Hubbs, Randy Hundley, Ryne Sandberg – and a ton more of noteworthy Cubs and other MLB stars.
The ballcase is valued at over a million dollars; however, the presence of this memorabilia represents the Cubs, Chicago (yes I know this is located in Scottsdale), and the appeal and tradition that the Valley of the Sun has maintained, because of their pride and love for this team and its fans, and tradition of Cubs baseball.
As my daughter and I were seated at our table for dinner, the waiter turned out to be one of the Cubs minor League pitchers from the Boise Hawks, who was rehabbing from an earlier injury. Don Carson and his agent were friends, and Don arranged for this young man (who also had a young family) to work at his restaurant, and a local golf course to help him “make ends meet.”
My daughter and I had met this young Cub earlier during the week at Fitch Park, and had a wonderful conversation with him, including his experience as a Boise Hawk during the previous summer.
Imagine if this “waiter” had later moved on to the Major Leagues, and even the Cubs roster! This is not what made us value our dinner experience with him, it was the sincerity, honesty, and genuine human relating that he brought to our memorable going-away dinner amidst this historical eatery!
BTW – the food and menu were outstanding; not a “bad” choice on the menu!
Our young Cub waiter-hopeful “unfortunately” did not move on with the Cubs, and I don’t think he continued in pro baseball. I am not certain that we would ever had had this unique experience ANYWHERE in FL as an established part of a “Cubs/Chicago” tradition!
I stated “unfortunately,” but after our dinner conversation, I had every faith that this young man would be successful in whatever career/life path he chose! He shared many personal insights about MLB players, personnel, and the “good and bad” about the game and its competitive lifestyle.
Our walks to HoHoKam and Fitch Park from our hotel through downtown Mesa gave us a casual, relaxed “small town-like” daily experience similar to our walks down Addison Street from the Lakefront to Wrigley Field. It was the “traditional ties” and welcoming Cubs Banners, friendly shopkeepers, other Cub fans, and local town people who made Mesa a pure joy of a first-ever Cubs Spring Training vacation with my younger daughter!
We both pledged to return with the hope that grandchildren and additional family would be part of future trips! Our vacation memories were made all the richer and valued, BECAUSE of the established and truly welcoming hospitality that the HoHoKams, City of Mesa, its people, and the entire Valley provided to Cub fans and the Cubs.
I truly blundered on one critical part of planning for this trip. Our Cubs-Sox tickets for the game in Mesa were somehow left behind in Chicago. My panic and mistake were corrected – in typical HoHoKams dedicated generosity and loving “class”, by one of the nicest front office HoHoKam ticket operations person you would be proud to call as a lifetime friend or family member. This Cubbie Angel listened to our story, and worked hard to find a solution to re-issue the tickets (which were now sold out); but she was unable to re-issue my “forgotten” tix.
What this Cubbie Angel did next will never be forgotten by my daughter and me – she offered to sell us her behind home plate tix for the game AT FACE VALUE! We were overwhelmed and had her reconsider allowing us to give her a tip or more money to repay her for her kindness and generosity, not to mention “saving” grace! Of course, she refused to accept anything extra, saying that she was working that day anyway.
These are but a few of the many personal, memorable, tradition-bound, quality experiences we had during our 2007 Spring Training in Mesa. The HoHoKams are community-oriented caring people who love the Cubs, Chicagoans, and are PROUD of their affiliation and community traditions as well!
“Brand” loyalty goes beyond the Cubs in Mesa. The entire community that has been strongly established and builds on the goodwill that local people bring to the “formula” cannot and should not be minimized.
A relocation to Florida, would be like moving to a foreign country and starting from scratch when considering the enormously positive people and community variables that are firmly entrenched in Mesa!
Obviously my personal story is biased, a testimonial sample size of one or two, and an emotionally-based vote for Mesa and the HoHoKams! However, I would be among the Cub fans that would NOT follow them to the humid Sunshine State, because of the personal “brand” loyalty that I have already enjoyed and deeply embedded in my heart in the Grand Canyon State!
“Someday…”
by GeneticCubsFan on Dec 16, 2009 10:03 PM CST up reply actions
Of course Lou is going to say move to Florida
He owns a home there and correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t he from Florida?
That’s not true!!! WHY THE F*CK WOULD YOU SAY THAT YOU AHOLE!! Ok maybe your right but you gotta give a little something here for it to work. I don’t know what I’m going to do this is the worst thing I’ve ever read, this day could not get any worse. Fine, F*ck it, you’re right.
by Ditkavsworld
Not only Lou
but Hendry, Bush, Fleita and Wilken are all from Florida.
And Sonny Crockett!
Not really relevant, but worth noting. Right?
I anxiously await the reasonable trading of Milton Bradley.
Dum spiro spero... | Follow me on twitter or else: @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Dec 14, 2009 12:59 PM CST up reply actions
Montreal
Since I teach at McGill, let me suggest moving the Cubs up here to train. There’s a big empty barn of an indoor stadium just sitting there, thousands of baseball-starved residents, and I’m sure that Bill Lee (who lives just over the Vermont border) would be happy to put together an opposing team or two :)
Numbers may not lie, but they don’t tell the whole truth (and nothing but the truth), either. -- Doug Glanville
I still miss
the Expos. Moving to Washington really has done wonders for them, hasn’t it?
by Not Bruce Froemming on Dec 14, 2009 1:30 PM CST up reply actions
Compared to Olympic Stadium,
any ballpark would look spiffy. (And yes, Nationals Park is pretty decent aside from that comparison.)
by Not Bruce Froemming on Dec 14, 2009 2:13 PM CST up reply actions
Its time
to break tradition which hasnt brought a World Series winner anyways, get out of the lunar surface and rock pile that Arizona is and go to Florida where its much nicer and plays against mostly American League clubs.
"Mostly American League clubs"?
Of the 14 AL teams, half of them train in Florida (Yankees, Red Sox, Orioles, Twins, Blue Jays, Tigers, Rays) and the other half (White Sox, Royals, Indians, A’s, Mariners, Rangers, Angels) trains in Arizona.
I know you live in Florida. Trust me, it’s not “much nicer” there.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I was
referring that most of their spring training games, if the move is made to Naples will be against American Clubs because most of them are on the west coast, both 20 minutes away would be the Twins and Red Sox in Ft. Myers and 45 minutes away would be the Rays in Port Charlotte/Punta Gorda. Further up the road would be the Orioles in Sarasota and in the Tampa bay area would be the Yanks/Blue Jays and the Tigers who are just 30 miles east of Tampa. Only national league clubs on the same side as Naples would be Pittsburgh and the Phillies in Bradenton/Clearwater. By the way I dont have to trust you, I live here and can have my own opinions and its far nicer, especially on the West coast of FLORIDA where some of the greatest beaches are in the world.
If fans are going to the beach...
… they’re not going to the ballgames.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Games over
at 400, the scrubs are playing at 315 and im at the beach in 15 minutes, I guess people go check the rock piles out in Arizona after the game.
I'm guessing it's time to go home from the beach fairly soon after 4.
There’s plenty to do in Arizona after the game.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Well
since I should trust you and you know everything about Florida, I guess I cant spent two and 1/2 hours out at the beach, because the sun wont be going down to at least 630 by that time in March.
Hey, I'm glad you like where you live.
My opinion is that Arizona is a better spring training location. Enjoy the beach.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
The swimming pools in AZ
are quite nice.
And the lack of humidity in AZ is wonderful.No mosquitos. No thank you to Florida.
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Dec 15, 2009 6:07 PM CST up reply actions
yeah they are
until the hurricanes roll through and flatten everything…..I’ve been to florida, nice place to visit, but between the gators, mosquitoes, humidity, retirees and tourists to name a few, you can have the place….and your not the only place that has great beaches either…..like saying only colorado has mountains…..
i take it
you’ve never actually lived in florida right?
by DartmouthCubsFan on Dec 14, 2009 5:26 PM CST up reply actions
Honestly... who cares where the Cubs practice?
While the above list is nice and all, none of it is very compelling. If it’s worth millions of dollars to the Cubs to move, and the best reason you can think of for staying is a list that basically consists of a bunch of hand wringing, then I say go for it.
Not only does the player evaluation note make sense, there’s also some value in allowing a large portion of your team – all of the Latin players – to be close to their friends and family.
The idea that 50 years of using the same spot to practice is some rich and long-standing history that must be preserved is pretty silly. This whole piece reads like a rationalization to no make you change your annual vacation. It’s practice – who cares where they do it? They’ll have strong fan support no matter where they go.
Most of the Latin players these days...
… come from Puerto Rico and the Dominican Republic.
Regardless of whether they’re in Florida or Arizona, that’s still a plane ride. It’s not like they can drive home after every practice.
It’s hardly “hand wringing” to suggest that not making players sit on two-hour bus rides instead of easy auto commutes would make more sense, or to suggest that the weather is better in Arizona (it is).
You’re right that the dollars will probably decide this, however.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
If the length of the bus ride matters, why doesn't the length of the flight?
Arizona’s a lot farther from the Caribbean, that’s all I’m saying.
Like I said, it doesn’t make a difference to me one way or another. If I ever go to visit spring training, I’d probably rather go to Florida because at least there’s beaches there, but if it means millions of dollars for them to do one or the other than c’est la guerre as far as I’m concerned.
Because you only fly from home once per season.
You’d be on those bus rides every day.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I agree...
…completely, who cares. I always thought that Cub history and tradition like any other team exists between April and September. If Ricketts can get a better deal in Florida than he should. I could give a damn what Ricketts does (blow up wrigley, block the rooftops, kick an old lady) as long as he produces a winner in my lifetime.
Also...
…there are many Chicago retirees in Florida. There would be no shortage of interest to see the Cubs in any spring training venue.
I'd like to see some quantative analysis
on why florida is supposedly so much better for player evaluation then anywhere else. Sounds like a bunch of nonsense to me. And don’t give me the no humidity, thin air “high sky” rock hard infield reasoning because that’s nonsense.
by nmcubsfan on Dec 14, 2009 4:56 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
You want
quantitative analysis, but other’s opinions are nonsense because you say so?
DEJESUS!!!
opinions yes, cold hard stats no.
show me some actual statistics that say florida is more superior and then I’ll believe it. but some “baseball source” that says so doesn’t cut it in my book. what this is to me is east coast bias because florida is closer to the midwest then arizona, and a lot of people still dont’ think there’s a lot out here in the southwest except cactus and coyotes…..
Why would it be nonsense?
Even with the ability to adjust for the park effects of Coors, people are inherently distrustworthy of any offensive numbers that anyone puts up there. Look at Holiday – no way he would have been the premiere free agent he is if he hadn’t proven himself outside of Coors last season.
If we're voting, I vote for Florida
More realistic playing conditions, easier and more enjoyable venue for fans making the trip from Chicago.
In the "gee that curveball didn't curve" way.
by Orval Overall on Dec 14, 2009 5:15 PM CST up reply actions
Yo mean like when they play in Colorado?
"WGN, Channel 9 Cubs Baseball, Excitingly, Importantly, Dramatically Yours." - Jack Brickhouse
Yes. Exactly that.
I mean that their Spring Training site should more closely simulate the game conditions they will face against every team in the major leagues except two (D’Backs and Rockies) who aren’t in the division and that the team makes one visit to each season.
Simulating conditions for “when they play in Colorado” or AZ makes a whole lot less sense than simulating conditions for the 155 games a year that they DON’T play in Colorado or AZ.
by Orval Overall on Dec 15, 2009 7:06 AM CST up reply actions
Actually, I was being snarky when I made my Colorado comment ;)
Every day a game is played, there is going to be something different as far as the conditions go. A ten game Cubs home stand may start with a game in the 80’s and humid with no wind and end with a 50 degree day with the wind howling out of the North when that high pressure system comes through.
Creating a ST facility to replicate your home park seems ludicrous. Evaluating younger players is not an exact science anyway, and as far as the veterans go, some guys tear it up in ST and go immediately cold when the season starts and vice versa.
Baseball and all sports are played in constant-changing conditions and athletes adjust. The 2008 Cubs were one of the best teams in baseball that year, was it because of AZ or in spite of it? Some teams overachieve in a particular season and then underachieve the next with the same guys. Is that because of where they play their ST games? The nuances of team sports are so complex that I feel that the location of ST means diddly.
"WGN, Channel 9 Cubs Baseball, Excitingly, Importantly, Dramatically Yours." - Jack Brickhouse
Teams are beating a path out of Florida for ST
and the Cubs want to go the other way. Go figure.
The biggest issue with ST in Florida would be the travel. Naples is in the far southwestern part of the state, a long, traffic-filled drive from most of the other sites. They make Mesa-to-Tucson look like a milk run.
Al, great post, with a lot of cogent points.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Dec 14, 2009 1:33 PM CST reply actions
Florida would be nice....
…because I have family in St. Pete.
But I prefer Mesa for one reason: Las Vegas. Thats the quickest 7+ hour drive in the country.
"Anyone on our team that thinks we are cursed will be moved to a lesser-cursed team"
-Tom Ricketts
State of the Offseason
It has really regressed this far that we’re left to discuss the economics of which State the Cubs will call their offseason “home”? Which State will host the sham of professional players acting like they’re working hard while they are really going throught he motions before the regular season starts? Where pretend games are played as if anyone actually cares what the score is?
Just wow. And this team will contend for something in 2010? Hmmm….
Who needs a stinkin' tag line? What are they for anyway?
BahHumbug!
"Anyone on our team that thinks we are cursed will be moved to a lesser-cursed team"
-Tom Ricketts
So krummy12's real name is
Ebenezer Scrooge?
by Not Bruce Froemming on Dec 14, 2009 7:11 PM CST up reply actions
What's the point?
Go ahead and have at it all you wish. I’m just stating my opinion that the whole topic is pretty mindless actually. Or what some others have said just the same after I re-read the entire thread. Personally, with the way this team is currently constructed, and looking to be lining up for 2010, watching them in Arizona or Florida wouldn’t be worth wasting a good day of sunshine.
Who needs a stinkin' tag line? What are they for anyway?
IMO the only factor that might significantly impact the quality of a baseball team...
w.r.t. Spring Training, is anything that inhibits the players to clock in hours of practice/repetitions. Travel times are an obvious factor that impacts practice time negatively. In the long run, teams getting hundreds and thousands more reps than the competition will likely develop an edge (sort of an extrapolation of the 10k hr rule). Whether that edge is significant or even quantifiable is a problem beyond my pay grade. Clearly revenue streams (and by extension, payroll) should be a big factor as well, but that’s one area I think we can all feel comfortable deferring to the expertise of billionaire moguls.
A couple points
1. This does not seem to be an impartial analysis. It seems like you have made up your mind, and are trying to find things to prove your point. Do you have a timeshare there or other vested interest in keeping the Cubs in AZ?
2. There is some difficulty in evaluating players. Big difficulty, small difficulty, I’m not sure. But rather than directly evaluating the players, scouts in AZ have to extrapolate to some extent, and any time that is done, there is more potential for error.
I don’t think that being in baseball a long time necessarily means you can figure out if someone will have an effective curveball in “normal” weather.
3. I don’t think that teams win the World Series because they train in Florida. On the other hand, most of the World Series winners have trained there. So you can make the argument that the competition in Florida is more elite.
I also don’t see how you exploded the myth that World Series winners train in Florida.
4. Tom Ricketts paid close to a billion for the Cubs. If he wants them in Florida, he can put them in Florida.
5. The fact that teams are migrating to AZ does not mean it is a superior locale. Teams would train in Bismark if they were financially incentivized enough. It MAY be superior in AZ, but I don’t think you can definitively say it is just based on teams moving there.
6. There are plenty of Chicagoans/former Chicagoans/Cubs fans in Florida.
7. The Hohokam’s have not done a lot to keep the team there. I only went once, so I could be missing a lot they’ve done, but the Stadium is old, tired and has the worst ballpark food I’ve ever had.
The only real argument I see for Arizona is that the teams are closer together. Is that enough to make the team stay? I don’t know. But personally, I would take heed of your post (or posts, since there’s been a couple on this subject) if they were a little more impartial.
DEJESUS!!!
Isn't that implied?
If not you should change the title to “Spring Training in AZ works better for me”. And then you wouldn’t have to write anything else.
DEJESUS!!!
I think it works better for the Cubs, and explained.
You’re free to disagree.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I will always find it curious that a ballpark that opened
in 1997 is considered “old and tired.”
In comparison to the new facilities in the Cactus League, Ho Ho Kam Park is not in step, especially in the facilities which are most important to the team — the practice fields at Fitch Park are just not state-of-the-art.
But to describe the ballpark “old” and ‘tired’ for fans, that’s just laughable. The friggin’ place is 12 years old.
The HoHoKams, and the city of Mesa have built 2 stadiums for the Cubs. Assuming the Cubs remain, this would be their 3rd facility. Saying “they (Mesa, ot the Ho Ho Kams) haven’t done much” is factually, wrong.
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Dec 14, 2009 7:01 PM CST up reply actions
I've been to HoHoKam
It may be only 12 years old, but it was not built to the same standards as the other parks in the area. Just like Comiskey was already outdated when it was built compared to other new parks like in Baltimore, Atlanta, Cleveland, SF, etc, HoHoKam is already way out of date. “Old” may have been a poor choice of words—outdated might be better—but the concept is accurate. The HoHoKams went on the cheap (I don;t know how much they spent, but if it was a lot, they didn’t spend it well) building the park and hiring the foodservice.
DEJESUS!!!
Ho Ho Kam II was NOT outdated when it opened.
In fact, it was state-of-the-art for AZ, right at the beginning of the rental car tax to help AZ revive the Cactus League, which was in decline in the early 90s.
The Peoria Sports Complex, which opened in 1995 was the precursor to all of the 2-team facilities we have now, but then, it was the exception to the rule. Those training facilities, obviously — were better than what the Cubs had at Fitch Park. However, the Cubs and Tribco signed off with Mesa in 1995, when it was agreed upon that the HoHoKam I was hopelessly outdated, and had to go. It did — after the end of Spring Training 1996.
So, the only stadiums that can be compared for arguement’s sake is — The PSC, Scottsdale Stadium, and Ho Ho Kam II. To hold more people, and — probably to get the facility built on time — the permanent stands don’t go from foul pole to foul pole. Erector set bleachers (and, some seats in the permanent stands are essentially, bleacher-esque) were constructed. At the time it opened, Ho Ho Kam II was the Cactus League’s largest stadium.
In 1995 — The Angels played in smallish Tempe Diablo Stadium with nearby fields. The A’s were in out-dated PHX Stadium — even before renovations, and trained in Papago Park, nearby.
Scottsdale Stadium was built in 1992. You could say that the Cubs wanted HoHoKam to be somewhat similar to that ball park. If so, they were delivered a similar final product.
The Brewers were in Chandler, in a very small facility and a field that reminded me of Yuma’s Desert Sun Stadium (Translation — like a good High School or College ballpark)
The Rockies were at Hi Corbett Field in Tuscon. Enough said.
So, that’s the 1997 Cactus League. HoHoKam II was absolutely state-of-the art for AZ.
Stadium-wise, certainly equal to Peoria and Scottsdale.
Head and shoulders above PHX Muni, Tempe Diablo, Chandler, and Hi Corbett.
I’ll argue that Ho Ho Kam only seemed outdated after the opening of parks in Surprise, the Tucson Sports Complex, and last year — Glendale. But the stadium was most assuredly — NOT outdated upon its’ opening. I’m not discussing concessions, as that’s not a part of this. But, yes — the food at HoHoKam isn’t that good.
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Dec 14, 2009 10:49 PM CST up reply actions
In fact, I'll remove the TSC out of that essay.
Only after the opening of the Suprise facility — in 2003 — did HoHoKam II seem to be dated. There NEVER was any talk of dissatisfaction from the Cubs as regarding their training facilities until THAT facility opened up. The Camelback Ranch, eventually led to the Cubs speaking up.
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Dec 14, 2009 10:53 PM CST up reply actions
meanwhile.....
2:56pm: Heyman tweets that a three-way deal has been agreed to with Halladay going to the Phillies and Lee to the Mariners. The Phillies are now trying to sign Halladay to an extension.
I'll put my vote in for Florida.
Reading Al’s points carefully, the only true distinction in favor of Arizona is Proximity for games, but Al, you’re exaggerating that one quite a bit to slant your argument towards Arizona — practically all of the Florida spring training spots are within 2-3 hours drive of each other with traffic, which makes them very similar to Arizona. (Personally, if the Cubs were thinking of doing this, they should have jumped to Sarasota before the Orioles took it — it’s much more centrally located).
The tradition/history factor is highly overrated — spring training for many teams has been in Florida as long as it’s been in Arizona (if not longer), and new traditions would develop quickly. Player evaluation/team performance almost indisputably goes towards Florida (say what you will about it, Al, but the facts speak for themselves — baseball people say that it is easier/better to evaluate talent in Florida, and recent history demonstrates that more World Series champs train in Florida). Weather is clearly a wash between the two — trust me, I grew up in Florida and I don’t ever recall March nights ANYWHERE near as cool as Arizona (seriously, it’s probably never below 68 in March at night in Florida), and VERY few rain days during Spring Training ever (and I should know, as spring training overlapped with Little League’s beginning each year).
What I do know is there are hundreds of direct flights daily from Chicago to Florida, each of which takes 2-3 hours, and almost all of which are VERY cheap — certainly cheaper in general (and shorter in length) than the longer flights to Arizona.
I know that the Carribean is a hotbed of talent, and having spring/development offices in Florida would make it easier for our scouts to check out Domincan/Caribbean talent (not to mention that Florida has a larger Carribean/Domincan ex-pat population than Arizona, making it perhaps a bit more comfortable for those players).
I know there are just as many ex-Chicagoans/Chicago-retirees in Florida as in Arizona (if not more — somebody get the census data!) that would flock to see the Cubs.
I know it would be pretty special to have the Cubs playing EVERY YEAR, in spring training at least, versus the Red Sox and Yankees.
I know the Cardinals are in Florida, which would mean a chance to meet up more often with our hated rival (and friendly opposing fans) in baseball’s greatest rivalry.
I know that many players actively seek out/mandate in their contracts that they’ll only play for teams that do spring training in Florida (Roy Halladay being a prominent example this year).
I know that Florida has no state income tax, while Arizona does — so players actually make/keep MORE money by playing/training in Florida compared to Arizona. (Also one of the reasons why so many athletes, generally, live in Florida….Tiger Woods, to use a timely example. In fact, this may also factor in to why Halladay didn’t want to go to a team that trained in Arizona).
I know that Florida has everything to offer visitors for spring training that Arizona has (golf, restaurants, bars, theaters, great weather), with the added bonuses of Disney World, Busch Gardens, and miles upon miles of pristine beaches.
I know that what I type here won’t change anyone’s mind, probably….Al seems pretty set on Arizona, for one. And that’s fine. But don’t assume that because you enjoy it more now that you wouldn’t enjoy Florida even more if the Cubbies switched it up….
The tax thing isn't necessarily true
Having dealt with their cases, I know that a great deal of NFL and NBA players start drawing their salaries once the regular season starts. Some NFLers get paid once training camp starts, but others often defer to the regular season. It might work that way for MLBers as well. A vast majority don’t start getting their salaries until April, for example.
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
If Rickets is using FL as anything more than a bargaining tool,
he’s making a mistake. The logistics alone of having to travel longs distances are enough for me to think that FL isn’t an option.
Chicago Cubs baseball is on the air...
After so many years of not winning a WS...
You’d think that some would let go of some of these “traditions” for a little change of pace/scenery.
by bilbosbuttons on Dec 14, 2009 4:29 PM CST via mobile reply actions
As someone who chose his college (go Sun Devils!)
based mostly on the fact that the Cubs trained next door I have thoroughly enjoyed spring training in Arizona – but now that I’m back here in Chicagoland all year long I’d rather take my winter vacation on a beach in Florida – and if the Cubs moved there it would be an added bonus!
by doofus cubs guy on Dec 14, 2009 4:34 PM CST reply actions
WHO CARES?!?
Until the Bradley “trade” is sorted out, there’s nothing else of any concern to me. I couldn’t care less if they have spring training in Rwanda and change the name of Wrigley to Massengill Park – the product on the field is what matters!
To quote Otto, “I’m DISAPPOINTED!!!”
"I'll take one in the mouth over the eyes any day". - AJ Pierzynski
http://lostinthevines.blogspot.com/
Then don't click on and read this.
There are plenty of other posts. This is a valid point of discussion for fans who enjoy Spring Training.
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Dec 14, 2009 7:03 PM CST up reply actions
Relax.
I enjoy ST as much as the next guy. My point is that some “fans” are preoccupied with periphery that they lack the focus to concentrate on what’s important.
Hendry’s had one damn thing to do this offseason and he’s dragging ass doing it. He’s made his own bed by over-paying and handing out NTCs just to make signing FAs that much easier (and that much more difficult to move). Now that he has to actually be creative and do some wrangling, he’s showing his true colors. And they’re ugly.
"I'll take one in the mouth over the eyes any day". - AJ Pierzynski
http://lostinthevines.blogspot.com/
by lostinthevines on Dec 15, 2009 2:29 PM CST up reply actions
You see, when I once complained about
a thread, I was told exactly that — don’t click. The individual who said that was right. I was wrong.
Therefore, I returned the favor, and no longer go to posts that I am not interested in.
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Dec 15, 2009 6:05 PM CST up reply actions
Good for you.
"I'll take one in the mouth over the eyes any day". - AJ Pierzynski
http://lostinthevines.blogspot.com/
by lostinthevines on Dec 16, 2009 9:27 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Why Al? You know the answer already
Money…
And the whole situation will end up with the Cubs getting more out of Phx/Mesa than if there had not been any Fla proposal.
Hey my personal opinion is always going to be the Phx area. With numerous family members there and Tucson plus a couple re-located colleagues, it’s THE PERFECT excuse to have a couple getaway weekends every March.
Just win the next game...!
The Cubs are like any other company that gets wooed by cities
that can’t really afford to give out the tax breaks they do. See Daley’s horrible abuse of TIFs here in Chicago. The country’s infrastructure is a shambles and you have cities offering billion dollar private companies tens of millions in freebies.
And you can make all the arguments you want about how much money gets pumped into the local economy. Those numbers are inflated to an absurd degree. My friend developed and then later joined the other side in disgust in fighting the building of convention centers and ballparks for assorted cities when he learned from the inside that it is never ever a money winner for the city. Just another example of public money being handed into private hands.
That said, I vote for Florida just to shake things up. It’s a sure money loser for any town that wins this thing anyway.
And, by saying that you don't
seem to realize that the Cubs are the biggest draw in the Cactus League and mean millions and millions of tourist dollars to the state of Arizona.
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Dec 14, 2009 7:04 PM CST up reply actions
And, I might add --
the cities use the ballparks year round for various events, and — of course, the AZ Fall League uses the fields, too.
If you are thinking these ballparks are used for 20 games and then they sit there, gathering dust until next year, that’s a complete fallacy.
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Dec 14, 2009 10:56 PM CST up reply actions
Good points SDSJM
When ASU renovated their field a few years ago, they played their home games @ HHK.
"WGN, Channel 9 Cubs Baseball, Excitingly, Importantly, Dramatically Yours." - Jack Brickhouse
It might be a done deal
Fox Chicago’s morning show reported that the Cubs Class A team has agreed to move to Naples. Hmmnnn.
I’ve been to AZ and FL spring training and I think the vibe in AZ is much better. Even the Yankees only get around 8-9,000 for their games.
However, I do think Florida has a few things going for them:
1) I think it’s a much more family friendly state. Orlando (Disney, Sea World, Universal) is only 1-3 hours away from most Florida cities.
2) I’m excited at the timeshare opportunities. The major timeshare companies have thousands of locations one can trade into in Florida. In AZ, there’s nothing.
3) If I were the Cubs, I’d make a chartered plane part of the deal with Naples. The Yankees, Phillies are both located within 15 minutes of Tampa’s airport. The Cubs could negate the 4-5 hour drives if they could hop on a 30 minute flight.
Always loyal to Leon
If you want more more conspiracy to chew on...
I’ve noticed over the last month or so, several ads in the Tribune for vacation homes, time shares, and other real estate opportunities in the Naples area. Maybe they’ve always been there and I’m only noticing them now, but it’d be real interesting if it’s a recent phenomena….
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
You're probably just noticing them now.
You can take your tinfoil hat off now.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
The Cubs have had a team in Florida (Daytona Beach)
for years now, so this ‘breaking news’ means nothing, outside that Naples stole that franchise from a fellow Florida city.
This could be their consolation prize. At least they wind up with a Class “A” team.
I’d find it very hard to believe AZ would not meet or exceed anything FLA proposes.
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Dec 15, 2009 6:03 PM CST reply actions
Further, I have seen no other corroboration of this supposed "breaking news".
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
What is the rush??
Why are the new owners so dead set on finding a home for spring training….three years from now? They should at least visit spring training this year to even know what they are dealing with.
This is an ownership group that has NEVER been to one Cubs spring training game. They can make their decision a year from now and still have plenty of time to build in Florida if that’s what they want to do.
I just don’t get where the priorities are.
WELL THAT WOULD MAKE SENSE....
I for one thought maybe they would wait until after March . Makes one wonder what is going on ??
Al... can we get this writing to the desk of Ricketts?
Nicely explained sir… nicely done.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
.
An interesting twist...
now the City of Mesa has decided to table the batting cage improvements at Fitch Park for now. Seems they are not happy with the lack of communication from Kennedy and other Cub officials. Makes one wonder.
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
Cubs By The Numbers
Cubs By The Numbers is a history of the ballclub by uniform number, but the biographies help trace the history of our beloved team in a new way. For everyone who's a Cubs fan, anyone who ever wore the uniform is like family. Cubs By The Numbers reintroduces readers to some of their long-lost ancestors, even ones they think they already know.
Click here to order your copy, available now!
Recent Stories in Ticket Exchanges
Baseball Nation Recent Stories
In Association With
Big League Stew - MLB - Yahoo! Sports
- Podcast: Dirk Hayhurst talks about Italy, the reality of the big leagues and his new book
- Dennis ‘Oil Can’ Boyd claims he used cocaine before a majority of his games
- Does Billy Beane’s contract extension signal an optimistic dawn for Oakland fans?
- Ask Alex: Will Alex Avila be an All-Star again?
- Create-a-Caption: Matt Cain’s great pair of golf pants
Certain photos copyright © 2012 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
