Roy Halladay to the Phillies
3 team deal. Cliff Lee goes to the Mariners.
about 2 years ago
PhillyCub
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Presumably, the Blue Jays get prospects in this deal.
Halladay has apparently agreed to a long-term extension with the Phillies.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
The pitching rich Phils get richer...
I'm a truth teller, I'm a risk taker, I'm like Johnny Cash - I walk the line...
No they just replaced one ace with another
the rest of their staff is pretty messed up.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Dec 14, 2009 3:39 PM CST up reply actions
I agree they didn't really "get richer"
As Halladay and Lee are pretty comparable. However, “the rest of their staff is pretty messed up”? How in the world do you figure that?
Their number 2 is obviously Hamels, who had a terrible terrible year by his standards and still had an ERA of 4.32 (after years of 3.39 and 3.09). Then JA Happ who had a 3.21 era in his first big league season. Joe Blanton at 4, who is no slouch either with a 4.05 era.
Numbers arent phenomenal but I think everyone expects Hamels to recover no healthy, and Happ to get better with age/experience. I’d take their top 4 over ours, though its a pretty close call. Regardless, not a mess.
THAT'S how you run an organization
Get a good pitcher midseason and make the World Series. In the off-season, you get the guy you wanted all along and send the other guy packing.
Meanwhile, we dither over ditching Bradley
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
It helps if your organization has tradeable assets
and financial leverage to make an offseason move. We are lacking in the former (although our farm system is trending upward) and were completely lacking in the latter this past season.
were lacking in finiancial leverage
because of poor organizational decisions…something the Phils havent done.
Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living."
Oh, I agree
Expecting the Cubs to act like the Phillies this offseason is impossible because of the mess management got us in.
The organization with the most loss in history
and still they are better than the Cubs right now.
That’s not true!!! WHY THE F*CK WOULD YOU SAY THAT YOU AHOLE!! Ok maybe your right but you gotta give a little something here for it to work. I don’t know what I’m going to do this is the worst thing I’ve ever read, this day could not get any worse. Fine, F*ck it, you’re right.
by Ditkavsworld
I don't get this
Why don’t the Phillies just extend Lee’s contract. Is Halladay that much better. How much better could Lee have been for the Phillies.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
Somewhat agree with you, although it depends on the prospects involved
Looks like we’ll have to wait a bit longer to find that out.
Phillies
don’t want to lefty aces, they want a righty and a lefty. They are assuming Hamels comes back to form next year, and he would be a great compliment to Halladay.
by Cubsfan Waveland on Dec 14, 2009 3:54 PM CST up reply actions
Hamels has actually been incredibly consistent throughout his career
if you look at his FIP and other peripherals. 2010 looked to be a fairly unlucky year for him, although along with that I should also note that 2009 was about as equally lucky as last year was unlucky.
He’s still got room to grow, but I wouldn’t call him an ace yet. The 2009 playoffs seem to have increased his stature relative to what he’s produced so far.
Better is still better
If you can get a little better, why not do it?
DEJESUS!!!
Better is also more expensive.
It seems to me that more often big name pitchers who signed big contracts rarely live up to the deal.
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
They offered Lee a extension
and he turned it down. They then leaned Halladay would agree to that extension and went out and got him.
Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living."
Hard to believe Halladay will sign for less than Lee
Lee is $9 million this year, Halladay something like $15.75. Take the extra million you are paying Halladay this year alone and spread it into an improved offer for Lee. Either way, its going to take $20 mm/year to sign either one of these guys, so you may as well stick with the one who is (a) two years younger, (b) already proven to be a good fit in your organization, and © isn’t heavily dependent on arm-killing strikeouts for his repetoire of pitches.
I think the Phillies are making a big mistake.
by Orval Overall on Dec 14, 2009 5:19 PM CST up reply actions
Halladay eats so many innings
he is super rare and well worth what it takes to upgrade on Cliff Lee.
"We’re going to come back here next year healthy and do what we’re supposed to do, and we’re going to be all right. That’s not Hendry’s fault. He thought it was the right move. It didn’t work out. But at the same time, he’s the same guy that put back-to-back championship teams together." - Aramis Ramirez
Per ESPN...
While the Phillies have done next to no actual negotiating with Lee, they heard enough rumblings that Lee wanted a CC Sabathia-type contract that they believed it would take a five-year or six-year deal to keep the 31-year-old left-hander. And the Phillies have an organizational philosophy that precludes deals longer than three years for starting pitchers.
Halladay, on the other hand, was willing to talk about a shorter guarantee if it meant going to the Phillies, a team with a spring-training site minutes away from his home in Florida.
The Phillies could have held onto Lee and taken a chance that they could sign one of the two pitchers as a free agent next winter. But they were apparently concerned there would be a massive bidding war over Halladay and Lee that would price them both out of their range.
Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living."
Why not at least discuss a deal with Lee first?
Who knows, it might have been an embellished rumor.
We're not scaremongering (nightmare of a season continues), this is really happening (Bears are more than done) - Radiohead
Jays are eating 6 million of Roy's salary
And living in Canada (where I watch more Jays games than Cubs games unfortunately), Halladay is the real deal and slightly better than Cliff Lee. Plus the Phils are getting 1 A and 2 B prospects from the Mariners. Good deal for th Phils.
Halladay is in another category
25 Complete Games in the last 3 seasons. and pitching in the AL East. Halladay is old-school good. You just don’t hear about Halladay unless you have Canadian relatives slipping you information through the border. Along with some Shreddies cereal.
by RiskyBusiness on Dec 14, 2009 10:51 PM CST up reply actions
Maybe if the Cubs fed Shreddies to Zambrano
he would complete more games. Would beat getting slammed on Red Bull and donuts and being shot by the 6th.
meanwhile the rest of the phillies rotation is full of question marks
This Chicago Cubs team is currently Aaron free. Keep it that way, please.
Happ and Blanton are fine 3 and 4s
Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living."
they are trying to move blanton
and happ is overrated. He’s an end of the rotation arm that needs an improvement in ability to really be a mid-rotation starter.
you are right
3.20 era in your first major league season needs massive improvement
His FIP was in the low 4's
Both he and Blanton are decent enough 3 and 4 options, if not great. Happ is young and has some room to grow though.
Were trying to move Blanton
Because of the 5.5 he is owed. I believe they wanted both Lee and Halladay, and at the end of the day, realized they couldn’t afford both. I think they will keep Blanton now that Lee is gone.
Phillies find a way to get Roy Halladay
Redsox go get John Lackey, and we’re stuck with Milton Bradley.
Yeah, Hendry’s an AWESOME GM
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
and after Red Sox sign Beckett to extension (they're rumoured to be working on it...)
they’ll feel confident enough in their pitching to include Bucholz in a package for Gonzalez.
That’s Adrian, not Alex… ;-)
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
That would mean trouble
for the rest of the AL if that were to happen.
We're not scaremongering (nightmare of a season continues), this is really happening (Bears are more than done) - Radiohead
Phillies get Halladay
Red Sox get Lackey , Yankees get Granderson , Mariners get Cliff Lee , Mariners get Figgins , Red Sox closing in on Adrain gonzales , while the Cubs are sitting on the side lines . Thanks Hendry .. Third largest payroll in MLB , and IMO 3rd place ..
And none of those moves...
Make winning the NL Central anymore difficult. Just make the playoffs and anything can happen.
Someday we'll go all the way...
by CubsBullsBears on Dec 14, 2009 7:24 PM CST up reply actions
That's correct
but it would be nice to have one of the those guys on the Cubs. Preferably Lee, Lackey, or Gonzo.
We're not scaremongering (nightmare of a season continues), this is really happening (Bears are more than done) - Radiohead
+1 bet jim's hitting the buffet hard tonight
Every player should be accorded the privilege of at least one season with the Chicago Cubs. That's baseball as it should be played - in God's own sunshine. And that's really living."
I once read here that Hendry spent like a drunken sailor last year....
whats going on??? Is Ricketts “tying his hands” as they say.
A woman's guess is more accurate than a man's certainty.--Rudyard Kipling
by cooliogirl47 on Dec 14, 2009 4:56 PM CST up reply actions
More like the entire offseason revolves around Milton Bradley
Last year, Hendry was trying to get Bradley. He should have only offered a one-year contract because this has turned out to be a mess. Hendry should have been fired when ownership changed hands.
And the eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight.
Once they have finished tying Hendry's hands
they should just finish the job and throw him in Lake Michigan……
Halladay wanted to be with a team that trained in FL.
So, if anything held up Hendry – and nothing did – it would have been the spring training location. Meanwhile, if you really look at this deal, there’s no point in Philly sending Cliff Lee to an NL team, so they weren’t going to work with us as the third team, despite the fanshot which showed how we had the chips to do so.
"We’re going to come back here next year healthy and do what we’re supposed to do, and we’re going to be all right. That’s not Hendry’s fault. He thought it was the right move. It didn’t work out. But at the same time, he’s the same guy that put back-to-back championship teams together." - Aramis Ramirez
I had read it was serious to him
since he has a home in FL. I guess I can’t guarantee it was a real issue.
"We’re going to come back here next year healthy and do what we’re supposed to do, and we’re going to be all right. That’s not Hendry’s fault. He thought it was the right move. It didn’t work out. But at the same time, he’s the same guy that put back-to-back championship teams together." - Aramis Ramirez
Yes
Halladay insisted on a contender and a Florida based training camp. I believe he didn’t really want to leave the Jays, but just got fed up with their lack of direction and mediocrity.
No, we're stuck with Zambrano
Zambrano is much less trade-able than Bradley. I haven’t heard of anyone knocking on the Cubs door for the overpaid silver slugger. Oh wait, he’s a pitcher…
With the Cubs payroll, they could be renamed the Albatrosses and I’d buy the t-shirt.
by RiskyBusiness on Dec 14, 2009 10:45 PM CST up reply actions
I don't mind being "stuck"...
With Z. He’s still a good pitcher.
Someday we'll go all the way...
by CubsBullsBears on Dec 15, 2009 9:07 AM CST up reply actions
Z is currently the 3rd highest paid pitcher in MLB
But he is definitely not producing at that level. For $18MM per year, we should get great, not good. Not a 9-7 record and “Help I’ve fallen because I swung too hard in BP and can’t get up!”.
by RiskyBusiness on Dec 15, 2009 9:45 AM CST up reply actions
w/l record
is not a very good stat to rate a pitcher
This Chicago Cubs team is currently Aaron free. Keep it that way, please.
by jesus christos on Dec 15, 2009 3:56 PM CST up reply actions
He's had shoulder issues...
The past two seasons as well. I’m not making excuses, but injuries have definitely played a role in some of his decline (and not just the batting practice induced injury).
Someday we'll go all the way...
by CubsBullsBears on Dec 15, 2009 6:42 PM CST up reply actions
They really need to invest in a sports psychologist to work with Zambrano
there is both talent and competitive drive there, but he doesn’t know how to harness/direct it.
Tough week
to be an Angels fan. They lose Figgins and (likely) Lackey, and they lose out on Lee and Halladay. And they might have to stomach Matsui as a consolation prize.
And least they don’t have Bradleygate.
DEJESUS!!!
At least they'll have money to fill the needs.
We have a suspended player named for a game company.
at daver's request, Let's frontload this B**ch!
The Blue Jays are going to be real happy with their haul from this.
Supposedly, one of the prospects they are getting is Philippe Aumont from the Mariners. Not only does he have a terrific fastball and filthy curve, he’s Canadian. He was great for Canada in the WBC last year — he could be major-league-ready as soon as this year.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Aumont
is most likely a pen arm because of a problem with his arm. This haul isn’t that impressive … but it’s basically what people expected. Some nice prospects, some very good, but so far, I haven’t heard an elite prospect in the package.
hip
…and a problem with his hip… but he passed his physical.
I do agree there’s no elite prospect in the package… but the striking thing is the Blue Jays and Phillies got interesting talent, but not even the best available. They got Aumont, but didn’t get Morrow. They got Taylor, but didn’t get Brown. They got D’Arnaud, but didn’t get Moore. They got Gillies, but didn’t get Saunders. I guess you can say Drabek didn’t have a comparable there… but they could have got Bucholz or a premium guy from the Angels or Dodgers with less of an injury/makeup concern.
- and yes I used “they” interchangeably for the Blue Jays and Phillies.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just North of Wrigley Field
by jameslcrockett on Dec 16, 2009 6:27 PM CST up reply actions
Regular Season= Halladay > Lee
Playoffs= ?
Randy Wells. A product of the Roy Halladay School of Pitching, located in Toronto, Canada. Possible relocation.
Great deal for all three teams
Phillies get Roy Halladay to add to Cole Hamels (he is very, very good and 2009 was an aberration), Joe Blanton, JA Happ and future ace in waiting Kyle Drabek.
Mariners get a top flight starter to go with Felix the King Hernandez.
Toronto gets real blue chip prospects, the kind that you can build around.
The Blackhawks and the Stanley Cup in 2010.
Cliff Lee
will LOVE pitching at Safeco Field.
Scott Bora$ is satan.
by Canadian Cubs Fan on Dec 14, 2009 6:00 PM CST up reply actions
Who are the blue chip prospects?
I haven’t heard what the final package is, but of the names being rumored …
Aumont? Degenerative problem in his arm has him likely slated for the pen and mechanics are iffy.
Dominic Brown? He’s a good OF talent, with the potential to put up a solid line, but there’s some concerns on defense and his power is above average, but not great.
Michael Saunders? Ready guy who should be a good player … but he doesn’t have power. Good solid tools, but no elite level tools. Good discipline, but not great discipline. Type of guy who might outproduce a lot of people, but might never be valued as highly.
Brandon Morrow? Great arm … but hasn’t shown any signs of putting it together. Was definitely rushed, though.
Travis D’Arnaud? Decent catching prospect, but hardly blue chip.
That said, it’s basically what people expected. They weren’t going to get elite prospects, but they got some good prospects.
I’m actually impressed that Jack Z was able to turn his B prospects into Cliff Lee.
Not to be too snarky
But it sure seems there is a whole lot of action out there. But we can rest assured that we have Ryno in the system for a while longer, Santo will remain in the booth, urination management at Wrigley will stay the same and I hear that we will be bringing back the big “C” logo next year as well. Sorry no link.
Still hopefull that Hendry will make a few good deal with the loads of FA’s
There goes one over the fence...a Tru-Link fence.
see...its happening!!!
A woman's guess is more accurate than a man's certainty.--Rudyard Kipling
by cooliogirl47 on Dec 14, 2009 6:33 PM CST up reply actions
reading about the trade
so it seems like it is
Seattle gets: Cliff Lee
Seattle gives: Phillipe Aumont, 2 prospects
Philadelphia gets: Roy Halladay and 2 Seattle prospects
Philadelphia gives: Cliff Lee, Michael Taylor or Dominic Brown, Travis d’Arnaud
Toronto gets: Phillipe Aumont, Travis d’Arnaud, and either Michael Taylor or Dominic Brown
Toronto gives: Roy Halladay
If this is how it goes down …
As of now, I actually think it’s a solid trade all-around for all parties. A lot depends on who the other two Mariners prospects are … but on paper, it makes a lot of sense. Toronto gets two good prospects, and a decent third piece for Halladay, which was pretty much all they could expect. Tough to figure out the Seattle side of things until we know the two prospects, but for the Phillies, it’s a solid trade, good to great if they can keep Dom Brown.
nvm, just read the latest updates
it’s going to be interesting how it shakes out if Drabek and Triunfel are both involved.
Happ and Blanton
Would be going to the Blue Jays in this deal, so says AP.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Dec 14, 2009 7:49 PM CST up reply actions
Stunning deal
so it looks like
Toronto gets: Kyle Drabek, Michael Taylor, Travis D’Arnaud
Philadelphia gets: Roy Halladay, Phillipe Aumont, Tyson Gillies, Juan Ramirez
Seattle gets: Cliff Lee
If that’s the case, my take is
Seattle – Sweet deal. I really like this gamble. Aumont, Gillies, and Ramirez are all intriguing prospects, but all come with red flags. Aumont’s likely a pen arm. Gillies is an interesting potential top of the order type bat, but he’s not as good as the .889 OPS he put up this past year (Cal League influenced, and a bit lucky as well). I’m actually a fan of Juan Ramirez. Young arm with good stuff, but he took a step back this year. Maybe it was being in the Cal League and getting mentally drained (although I haven’t taken a look at the numbers). That said, his stuff wasn’t as sharp and his control was iffy. For 1 year of Cliff Lee and at least 2 draft picks, this is a solid deal. On paper, if the Mariners can add a big bat, this is arguably the best team in the AL West right now.
Toronto – I’ll be the first to say I was wrong. They managed to get an elite prospect in Kyle Drabek. I think Drabek’s overrated, and I think the difference between him and say, Jay Jackson, isn’t substantial, but for the most part, people think of Drabe as elite and he does have front of the rotation potential. That was the key to any deal for Anthoupoulous, and by agreeing to give Philly a window with Halladay, they managed to get the higher price. Taylor’s a very good power hitting OF talent with the potential to be at least average, if not solid, defensively. D’Arnaud is an interesting enough catching prospect that is a few years away. Real solid deal.
Philly – I don’t get it. I understand that the ability to sign Halladay down was valuable. That said, this looks like 2 2 team deals instead of a 3-way. I understand that they paid a steeper price for Halladay as a result of getting the window AND getting Doc to agree to a 3 year extension. Here’s what I don’t get … why not keep Cliff Lee, have a great rotation of Halladay/Lee/Hamels for a year. Do they need Aumont/Gillies/Ramirez that badly? Two picks in a year likely would’ve netted them solid assets. If it’s a money issue, my 2nd thought would be … that’s all they could get for Lee? I’m a bit surprised if no other team was willing to offer more, or at least, offer more immediate help (the chances of any of those three helping in 2010 is rather slim).
by toonsterwu on Dec 15, 2009 5:51 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
Good analysis - rec'd
"We’re going to come back here next year healthy and do what we’re supposed to do, and we’re going to be all right. That’s not Hendry’s fault. He thought it was the right move. It didn’t work out. But at the same time, he’s the same guy that put back-to-back championship teams together." - Aramis Ramirez
Good move for the Phillies
The Phillies are in a win-now mode and not just the NL East. They are in a Win the World Series now mode. And Halladay gives them the best chance to defeat the Yankees or Red Sox in a World Series.
Did the Phillies have the prospects to do the Halladay deal on their own? Did they need Seattle to get Halladay? Or did the Phillies find a way to reload instead of rebuild by adding Seattle to the deal?
by RiskyBusiness on Dec 15, 2009 10:58 AM CST up reply actions
I don't think it's a bad move for the Phillies
but I’m just a bit surprised that
a) They couldn’t squeeze out more to hold onto Cliff Lee
b) That they couldn’t find more for Cliff Lee
Put it this way – I don’t think the difference between Halladay and Lee is all that substantial, and the Phillies gave up substantially more to land Halladay than what they got for Lee.
It looks like 2 2 team deals to me. There’s some talk that Seattle may get more … which would make them an even bigger winner. We’ll have to wait and see.
Maybe they wanted Halladay all along
And I’ve heard that Lee wanted more money than the Phillies were anywhere near considering – Sabathia money.
I’ll take Halladay’s complete game and shutout stats.
by RiskyBusiness on Dec 15, 2009 11:40 AM CST up reply actions
Seems like things still aren't final
Still seems to be some suggestion out there that Seattle will get more, which will make this an even bigger steal for them.
Interesting to see that some folks consider the Blue Jays return to be lukewarm. Keep in mind that there was no way they would get what they were demanding midseason, and to even come close is a win in it’s own right.
well looks like
Michael Taylor goes to the A’s for Brett Wallace. If so … win for the A’s, and the Blue Jays package is a bit weaker, unless Wallace surprises and sticks at 3rd, which few are expecting. I also think Taylor is a better overall hitter than Wallace. The fact that they still got Drabek, who I still think is overrated, surprises me, but a package of Drabek, Wallace, D’Arnaud is definitely lukewarm.
Agree on keeping Halladay and Lee
I believe it was Buster Olney that stated financial concerns for the Phils. However, I believe that they could have unloaded Blanton on the Jays. And the Jays are handing over 6mil…so that more than makes up for Lee’s salary.
That part of the deal doesn’t make sense to me. Why not go into the season with Lee, Halladay, Hamels, Happ and Moyer, AAA guy, cheap FA or did Pedro retire?
Pedro wants to pitch a full season
so not yet
This Chicago Cubs team is currently Aaron free. Keep it that way, please.
by jesus christos on Dec 15, 2009 5:03 PM CST up reply actions
Great move by the Phillies
Roy Halladay is in a different stratosphere when it comes to elite pitchers. He is in the category of a CC Sabathia, in fact I would say he is better. He’s a 24 carat horse who gives his team tons of quality innings. And the thing that really seals the deal for the Phillies is that Halladay is locked down for a fair contract over the next three seasons.
Cliff Lee is a proven high quality pitcher. But he isn’t in the league of Halladay. And very importantly he is going to command well over $100 million in his next contract negotiation given the continuing market for frontline starting pitcher. I like the deal for Seattle, but boy is it going to be a tough contract negotiation next winter.
Toronto made out very, very well. They got blue chip talent that you can build around.
The Blackhawks and the Stanley Cup in 2010.
From a public perspective
I think Toronto made out well. Drabek’s considered elite, Wallace is considered solid, as is D’Arnaud. Personally, I’m not jumping on the “it’s awesome” bandwagon. I think Drabek’s a bit overrated, Wallace is a first baseman with average power, and D’Arnaud is a catcher that’s far away. I know the scouting reports on Travis D are quite high, but I’m still not sold on the bat, and the defense still needs some work.
As for Seattle, I think they made out great. Even if it’s a year of Lee and 2 picks, I think it’s worth the gamble to try and compete now. Aumont’s a pen arm, Ramirez has a lot of work, and Gillies is a bit overhyped off Cal League. I think they got a 2 C+ type talents with a B-.
on seattle
With another power bat, that’s arguably the top team in the AL West.
Gillies...
and he’s way down the depth chart with the Mariners with Saunders and Ackley having claims to outfielder spots next to Gutierrez and Ichiro.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just North of Wrigley Field
by jameslcrockett on Dec 16, 2009 6:30 PM CST up reply actions
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