Need some info from BCB readers!!
by blakethesnake77 on Dec 15, 2009 12:56 AM CST
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PrintHey guys, I'm currently in the process of writing an informative speech about some oddities in baseball. Some of the topics I've chosen are 1) Why do baseball parks have different dimensions in the outfield 2) Why do baseball managers wear uniforms 3) Where do some older baseball teams get their names?
These are just a few ideas I've come up with, and I figured where else would I get the best information than from some of the brightest fans!? I have some good info already on topic number 2. And I know how some teams got their names (newspapers renamed Chicago's national league team the Cubs). As for the stadium dimensions questions, all I've come up with so far is that they were built due to the stadiums location in the city, and to city regulations.
Does anyone have any suggestions about where I can find some more info about these subjects? Or any other ideas for oddities in baseball? Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to have the BCB faithful do my research for me. I'm going to keep digging despite what I get from here. Just wanted to pick the brains of the most knowledgable fans in baseball. Doesn't hurt to ask right? So what do you guys think? I appreciate your inputs.......
Dave Blake
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
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Outfield dimensions
I’m not sure if this really answers why they aren’t uniform, but I can say that newer parks tend to have smaller outfields- think Great American Ballpark, Citizens Bank, the Cell, etc. I’ve always heard that the main reason for this is to increase fan intimacy and/or to increase offense, which draws more casual fans than pitching and defense.
I like baseball-almanac.com as a general baseball history site, and they have a section on stadiums
Good luck!
To fit.
Baseball stadiums, back in the day (still evident with Fenway), had to fit in a certain area. This often led to some unusual dimensions. Initially, most parks did not have an outfield fence, meaning the field could go on forever. Some places had outfield walls out of necessity. Look at how some of the old stadiums from the early 1900s fit into the city and existing structures (roads, buildings). That will give you your answer.
Go Cubs Go and SKOL Vikings!!!
by HectorVillanueva on Dec 15, 2009 8:43 AM CST up reply actions
Yup...
The older ballparks were built to fit within the confines of the city. That included the need for the quirky walls as well. Those designs were for reasons of practicality.
Ballparks built later (but earlier than Camden Yards) were generally symmetrical, like old Fulton County Stadium, Three Rivers Stadium, the Astrodome, and Busch stadium.
The new parks have quirky dimensions simply to be “retro” and “unique.” It’s purely for aesthetic reasons and has no practical justification. The idea was that the “cookie cutter” parks of the 60s and 70s were too boring.
by SouthernCub on Dec 15, 2009 11:33 AM CST up reply actions
Actually, some of the new parks...
… do have quirky dimensions to meet the boundaries of the park. San Francisco, Pittsburgh and Baltimore are examples of this.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Those were all by choice...
I believe Baltimore’s stadium and surrounding areas were rebuilt as part of a ballpark and revitalization combo. And San Francisco and Pittsburgh chose to build their parks up against the water. In each of these cases, the quirkiness was manufactured.
By contrast, the old stadiums really had no choice...
they couldn’t afford to build their stadiums however they wanted to build it.
Right, but...
… the locations did force certain designs on the parks.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
That wasn't my point. But still, I'm not sure I agree...
My point was simply that there’s no reason the newer parks had to be built with quirky features. The owners were able to choose to put it there, and did so specifically to create quirkiness.
In fact, the designs in Baltimore, Pittsburgh and San Francisco probably still could have been built roughly where they were (just move home plate back about 20-30 feet) without the quirks. Same with Baltimore. The owners chose to put the layout in such a way as to manufacture “uniqueness.”
The old ballparks were built that way because they had no choice.
As for the Giants' ballpark,
yes, the quirkiness was manufactured, but they could have built a generally symmetrical park if they had so chosen, but they wisely followed the lead of Camden Yards and gave it character.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Dec 15, 2009 3:43 PM CST up reply actions
Exactly my point...
That was my point. The owners chose to build the newer quirky ballparks purely for aesthetic reasons.
Some older examples of this..
Ebbets Field and Baker Bowl both had sub 300 ft. right field lines, and about 40-foot tall fences. Both stadiums built to fit the lot available to the owner. The Polo Grounds of course wasn’t built for baseball, but featured 260 ft foul lines, 480 ft to deepest center, and bullpens in fair territory. When the Dodgers moved west, they played games in the LA Coliseum, with the oh-so-politically-incorrect ‘Chinese screen’ to defend the comically short left field porch.
Possibly another aspect to consider is teams that move the fences. At New Comiskey Park, the original layout had the bullpens under the bleachers, and the entire bullpen area of today was part of the outfield. I think it was one or two years before the park was reconfigured to turn it into yet another homer haven. IIRC Bill Veeck even tried to move the fences during the season back when he had the Tribe.. Yankees coming to town? Back go the fences. And closer in when the Browns showed up. Though I imagine it didn’t take the league long to put the kibosh on that.
by The Deputy Mayor of Rush Street on Dec 15, 2009 3:40 PM CST up reply actions
good response
ballparks decades ago were arguably more quirky than they are today. Ebbets Field, Yankee Stadium, Fenway Park, the Polo Grounds spring to mind. Another was the LA Colisuem, home of the Dodgers for a couple of years.
Thank goodness the days of the mutli-purpose stadium (baseball/football) are largely over. I hated the cookie cutter quality of those stadiums.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Dec 15, 2009 3:41 PM CST up reply actions
Here is an interesting variation,
that might also get you a PhD in math. Outfield dimensions are always expressed linearly as number of feet to left field foul pole (355), number of feet to straight away center (400), as so on. So while Wrigley is mostly thought of as a small park, the foul pole depths are among the longest in MLB.
Anyway, what I also thought would be interesting, would instead of these linear dimensions, to have the park size expressed in square feet. Of course this gets incredibly complex with all the irregular shaped fences. I would have no idea how to do this, but I think it would be fascinating.
"The Cubs are due in sixty-two." - #14
That's actually a "relatively" simple calculus problem...
Assuming one had the data and had a good handle on or memory of calculus II (integration), it’s not too bad a problem. Of course, those two assumptions eliminate me!
Think of each length as a Y value plotted on an X-axis of 0 (representing the LF line) to R (representing the RF line). Define the distance from home plate to the OF wall by some function. Then integrate from 0 to R to get the area under the curve (i.e., the size of the “in-play” portion of the park).
For irregularly-shaped parks, you would have to break up the integration into segments and apply a different distance function. For example, at Wrigley, you’d have a function for the LF foul line to the spot where the wall comes in (X=0 to X=w1), then a function for the area between the two places where the wall comes in (X=w1 to X=w2), and then a function for the area between where the wall goes back out in RF to the RF foul line (X=w2 to X=R).
Assuming you can do a reasonable good job of estimating those functions, then it’s just a matter of integration and voila.
Without the actual data in front of me, I’d say Wrigley is still a pretty small park. While we’re deeper down the lines than most, that’s only for a small portion of the park. In the alleys its fairly shallow, and it’s slightly shallow in CF too. I think that will more than offset the distance down the line.
Now I feel like a huge nerd.
by SouthernCub on Dec 15, 2009 11:28 AM CST up reply actions
Yeah, I'm sorry about that...
negative awesome points for me this week.
Good questions!
I have no idea. Sorry.
I look forward to seeing what peeps write though. Wish you the best man!
Interesting questions
The answer to most of them would probably be “tradition”
As for managers wearing uniforms, it wasn’t always so. Connie Mack wore a stiff-necked collar. I think it’s disgusting to see Pinella waddle out there in a uniform, myself.
As for team names, I’m sure a bit of research on Google or even Wikipedia would get you a few answers. The Reds were shortened from Redlegs or Redstockings or something.
There was a serious dearth of creativity in the 50s and 60s. Mets? Twins? Seriously? Pah. Stupid names.
Nicknames should be animals or groups of people, not articles of clothing or references to a city.
Worf hath spake
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
I thought managers wore uniforms b/c they used to also play. No?
A woman's guess is more accurate than a man's certainty.--Rudyard Kipling
by cooliogirl47 on Dec 15, 2009 8:51 AM CST up reply actions
I believe that is correct...
There were exceptions to the manager uniform (most notably Connie Mack, as mentioned by Worf). But I believe that managers have worn uniforms throughout the history of the game.
by SouthernCub on Dec 15, 2009 11:36 AM CST up reply actions
That's right
Because there were so many manager/players, they wore uniforms. The tradition stuck.
Worf, would you really want Lou waddling out there in a suit?
Maybe he should take this kind of a look:
"If I were playing third base and my mother were rounding third with the run that was going to beat us, I'd trip her. Oh, I'd pick her up and brush her off and say, 'Sorry, Mom,' but nobody beats me." ~ Leo Durocher
by Musicdude10 on Dec 15, 2009 11:47 AM CST up reply actions
I'm a bored graphic designer....
"If I were playing third base and my mother were rounding third with the run that was going to beat us, I'd trip her. Oh, I'd pick her up and brush her off and say, 'Sorry, Mom,' but nobody beats me." ~ Leo Durocher
by Musicdude10 on Dec 15, 2009 12:13 PM CST up reply actions
Hmm...isn't working from my webshots account. Anyone know a site that does work for linking a photo to BCB?
"If I were playing third base and my mother were rounding third with the run that was going to beat us, I'd trip her. Oh, I'd pick her up and brush her off and say, 'Sorry, Mom,' but nobody beats me." ~ Leo Durocher
by Musicdude10 on Dec 15, 2009 12:14 PM CST up reply actions
I'm not sure it applied back in Connie Mack days..
But I believe there’s a long-standing rule that you can’t step on the field during the game unless you’re in uniform. (Think trips to the mound)
by The Deputy Mayor of Rush Street on Dec 15, 2009 3:20 PM CST up reply actions
The Mets originally were the Metropolitans I believe,
which got shortened to Mets.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Dec 15, 2009 3:47 PM CST up reply actions
Twins?
Aren’t Twins a group of people, albeit a small group?
by CubbieFaninOhio on Dec 15, 2009 7:05 AM CST reply actions
Baseball: A History of America's Favorite Game
I think that was the title of the book we used for a class on this at UC. The class was amazing. We talked about the origins of the game to the effects tobacco had on the game to the effect spanish flu had on the game.
I'm Buck Melanoma. Moley Russell's wart. Not her wart. Not her wart! I'm... I'm the wart. She's my tumor. My... my growth. My... uh, my pimple. I'm Uncle Wart. Just old Buck "Wart" Russell. That's what they call me, or Melanoma Head. - Uncle Buck
by Andiamo Cuccioli on Dec 15, 2009 7:18 AM CST reply actions
What's a Met anyway?
…. a Metropolitan (I think)
A woman's guess is more accurate than a man's certainty.--Rudyard Kipling
That is correct
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Dec 15, 2009 10:56 AM CST up reply actions
New York
Metropolitan Opera…..
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Dec 16, 2009 4:03 PM CST up reply actions
I don't think that's who the team is named after
Probably not the museum, either
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Dec 17, 2009 9:38 PM CST up reply actions
It's not, but...
… the story goes that when the Mets opened a ticket office in midtown Manhattan the winter before they began play, with the sign “Mets Ticket Office” on the door, they did get numerous people stopping by looking for opera tickets. True story, apparently.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Pirates
Pirates began to be called by that name after they signed a player immediately after his contract expired with his former team while they were negotiating a new contract with him
I'm Buck Melanoma. Moley Russell's wart. Not her wart. Not her wart! I'm... I'm the wart. She's my tumor. My... my growth. My... uh, my pimple. I'm Uncle Wart. Just old Buck "Wart" Russell. That's what they call me, or Melanoma Head. - Uncle Buck
by Andiamo Cuccioli on Dec 15, 2009 10:17 AM CST reply actions
They should probaly change their name now.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Dec 15, 2009 10:57 AM CST up reply actions
Might I suggest..
“Pittsburgh Turnstyles”, as their players are constantly coming up from the minors, and going right back out to other teams as they reach arbitration and free agency.
(Which stinks for Bucs fans, a better baseball town than generally given credit for)
by The Deputy Mayor of Rush Street on Dec 15, 2009 3:26 PM CST up reply actions
Favorite team name story
The Cincinnati Reds started as the Red Stockings in 1869 ( they are technically the oldest team but the Cubs are the oldest “Real” MLB team because the Red Stockings did not play in the original professional league opting to go amateur) They changed their name to the Reds in 1878 where it remained till 1954 when not wanting to be associated with those OTHER “Reds” that Senator McCarthy was attacking they changed their name to the REDLEGS and then returned to being the regular REDS in 1960. Weird but true.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Dec 15, 2009 11:05 AM CST reply actions
thanks for the Reds' red scare anecdote
I had never heard that before. I remember them being the Redlegs and assumed that they had been Redlegs since switching from the Red Stockings.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Dec 15, 2009 3:49 PM CST up reply actions
Some newer ball parks have odd demensions
Because they play in football stadiums. Minnesota, Oakland, and Florida all have to deal with those, although not any more for the Twins.
Fenway had to deal with limitations of the streets and everything. The Cell has to deal with the highway although it’s not really that evident in the design of the park or the field.
City limitations is the point I’m getting at I guess
"If I were playing third base and my mother were rounding third with the run that was going to beat us, I'd trip her. Oh, I'd pick her up and brush her off and say, 'Sorry, Mom,' but nobody beats me." ~ Leo Durocher
Actually the Oakland Masoleum
was one of the original cookie-cutter multi-purpose stadiums, precursor to Riverfront and Three Rivers Stadiums, so the dimensions were pretty close to symmetrical. That changed when they re-did the stadium for the Raiders when they returned from SoCal. Still have the most spacious foul territory of any ballpark I am sure. Explains why the Oakland A’s have had only one batting champion … remember who?
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Dec 16, 2009 12:01 PM CST up reply actions
Cubs didn't always pick their name
from Wiki
I think some of the Cubs previous nicknames were given to them by reporters, not the formal team nickname. Especially when they were called the Orphans or Remnants.
MOST of the old nicknames were given by newspapers.
… including “Cubs”, which was given because the team in that era (about 1901-02) was populated by young players. The name caught on and was eventually adopted as the official nickname.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Thank goodness Leo, Dusty and Lou weren't the managers back then.
Given their penchant for requesting and playing veterans over younger players, today’s team would be know as the Chicago “Old Farts.”
Now only 12,859 on the "Cubs Season Tickets Waiting List"...
Dodgers
The Dodger name goes back to their days in Brooklyn. Their name goes back to the trolley dodgers.
I think it was Philadelphia that accused Pittsburgh of pirating players from them.
I believe that I remember that the Boston NL franchise was bought by the associates of a Boston bootlegger. He was know as the chief and his associates were known as braves.
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. -- George Santayana (1863-1952)
Padres....
due to the California Missions….The “Friars” of course, once played in Mission Valley.
Worst tam name in sports. A Fat priest doesn’t bring much of a vision to mind.
I’d have changed the name to SD Surf, and use So Cal iconic imagery to sell the team.
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Dec 15, 2009 6:11 PM CST reply actions
Wow!
So I woke up to check the post before I came into work and saw all your comments. There’s a lot of great info in here.
Does anybody know why Philadelphia named their club the Phillies? The most obvious choice would be after the city, but why? Lack of imagination?
This speech class I’m taking is online and I have to post all my speeches to youtube, so when I finish it next week I’ll be sure to put it up here. See if it gets the BCB stamp of approval. Thanks again for all the inputs and keep em coming!
by blakethesnake77 on Dec 15, 2009 7:30 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
yes, do that...I'd love to see it!
A woman's guess is more accurate than a man's certainty.--Rudyard Kipling
by cooliogirl47 on Dec 15, 2009 8:25 PM CST up reply actions
The Phillies were named after the city
When the team was moved there in the 1800’s, the owners named the team after the city’s nickname, Philly.
I figured
Yeah that’s what I thought. Just thought it was kinda unimaginative ya know?
by blakethesnake77 on Dec 15, 2009 10:52 PM CST up reply actions
It's the 1800's.
What did you expect, a focus group??
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Dec 16, 2009 4:01 PM CST up reply actions
Some questions ..
Why are they called the Royals?
Who first named the penalty a “balk”?
Which cartoon character sought after a Joe Shlabotnik card?
Name the city where both Babe Ruth and Lou Gehrig were struck out in 7 pitches by a 17 year old girl.
What did a “gashouse” have to do with the Cardinals in the 1930’s?
Blue mountains high .. Blue valleys low
I don't know which way we will go ..
One summer dream .. one summer dream ..
coda
ELO, 1975
Jackie Mitchell
struck out Babe Ruth and Lou Gehrig in 7 pitches in Chattanooga, TN.
My dog's name is Wrigley... What else can I say?
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