Time to Start the Rebuild Process!!
by cubsluver22 on Dec 16, 2009 9:44 AM CST
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PrintWith as many needs as ours, 2010 isn't gonna be exactly favorable to us winning a Championship . 83 wins is awful for a team with our kinda payroll. We have already let a solid starter walk. We still have no answer to the MB situation. We have a bullpen with more questions than answers. We don't know if Lilly will be ready for opening day or not. We have 2 huge question marks as our #4 or #5 starter. Our SS was a bargain at the league min for what he is in terms of ability. Well now he's not a cheap stop gap anymore. We don't know which catcher we will be getting next season. Our 3rd and1st baseman are ever aging and their history of injuries are piling up. We still need some quality bench guys.
It's time to start the rebuild process vs trying to piece together another 1/2 ass team! We have a new owner with new vision. He seems willing to upgrade the facilities and get this team where in needs to be going into the future in terms of marketing/amenities etc. Players like Marlon Byrd and Rick Ankiel aren't gonna get us anywhere and that's exactly whats left on the market that we can seemingly afford.
No better time to start fixing the mistakes of our past than now. Yes there are players which we will not be able to trade under any circumstance but there are some that could be traded for quality cheap prospects. Its a win/win situation. Shed payroll and start getting re-tooling while bad contracts are being paid off.
I don't like the thought of losing but to get the stars aligned where were able to have a legit shot at winning year in and year out were gonna have to take some chances in the trade market by trading away players we don't want too. It comes a time when we have to quit lying to ourselves and having false senses of hope. That time is NOW!!
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
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I'm thinking that Ricketts may be giving Hendry this year
to see if any of this can be fixed with the payroll remaining around 130-140 million. In other words – Jim, see if you can dig yourself out of the Bradley-Fukudome-Soriano hole you got the team into. Something to keep in mind is not only are we on the hook for some bad contracts, but because of the pending team sale, the contracts were generally back-loaded. This leaves even less room to maneuver
Soriano: 07:$9M, 08:$13M, 09:$16M, 10-14:$18M
Dempster: 09:$8M, 10:$12.5M, 11:$13.5M, 12:$14M (player option)
Lilly: 07:$5M, 08:$7M, 09:$12M, 10:$12M
Dome: 08:$6M, 09:$11.5M, 10:$13M, 11:$13.5M
Bradley: 09:$5M, 10:$9M, 11:$12M
So next year doesn’t look so much better, contract-wise. Not to mention that D Lee is going into the last year of his deal, and A Ram has another chance to opt-out to free agency after next season.
Letting the situation play out for a year, then bringing in a new GM (and possibly Ryno to manage after Lou decides he’s too old for this….) It certainly would give a new GM more leeway with the fans then, instead of having bear the negativity of unwinding this current team.
by The Deputy Mayor of Rush Street on Dec 16, 2009 10:07 AM CST reply actions
Don't forget to include signing bonuses
in year one payroll data.
"We’re going to come back here next year healthy and do what we’re supposed to do, and we’re going to be all right. That’s not Hendry’s fault. He thought it was the right move. It didn’t work out. But at the same time, he’s the same guy that put back-to-back championship teams together." - Aramis Ramirez
I grabbed those numbers from Cot's..
The bonuses are sunk costs, I’m mainly pointing out the effects on future year’s payrolls.
(Point taken as it rebuts the ‘back-loading by TribCo’ comment.)
by The Deputy Mayor of Rush Street on Dec 16, 2009 11:18 AM CST up reply actions
No - you're arguing that deals are backloaded
which aren’t and you’re “proving” that they’re backloaded by leaving out the bonuses.
"We’re going to come back here next year healthy and do what we’re supposed to do, and we’re going to be all right. That’s not Hendry’s fault. He thought it was the right move. It didn’t work out. But at the same time, he’s the same guy that put back-to-back championship teams together." - Aramis Ramirez
Look
I don’t want to be nitpicky and I don’t mean to jump down your throat. I just don’t see Hendry backloading deals except that one year he signed Lilly, Marquis, and Soriano. Giving signing bonuses in place of part of year one salary and then inflating the annual pay as the contract ages is fairly standard practice. Compare the Phillies’ contracts and you’ll see the same phenomenon.
"We’re going to come back here next year healthy and do what we’re supposed to do, and we’re going to be all right. That’s not Hendry’s fault. He thought it was the right move. It didn’t work out. But at the same time, he’s the same guy that put back-to-back championship teams together." - Aramis Ramirez
Perhaps you could let me get a response in edgewise between rants?
Or on second thought, no thanks – you go right on arguing without me.
by The Deputy Mayor of Rush Street on Dec 16, 2009 11:43 AM CST up reply actions
Dude
the second response was an attempt to atone for the snappish tone of the first response. That’s all. Sorry it didn’t come off right – it’s hard to communicate tone in text.
"We’re going to come back here next year healthy and do what we’re supposed to do, and we’re going to be all right. That’s not Hendry’s fault. He thought it was the right move. It didn’t work out. But at the same time, he’s the same guy that put back-to-back championship teams together." - Aramis Ramirez
I just don't understand this.
If Ricketts wants to hold Hendry accountable for past mistakes, do it now. Hendry deosn’t have a magic wand to fix this. If Ricketts won’t support him with more dollars, Hendry isn’t going to pull a rabbit out of his hat. It seems as if he is willing to let Hendry twist in the wind for a year just so that he can justify firing him in 10 months, all that is doing is delaying everything for year and locking in yet another losing season.
"The Cubs are due in sixty-two." - #14
Nothing in what I have read from Ricketts
supports this view:
It seems as if he is willing to let Hendry twist in the wind for a year
Ricketts needs to get to know Hendry. He needs to learn how Hendry works firsthand and find out if Hendry has the philosophy and ability to do what Ricketts wants done. There’s a lot about the job of a GM that all of us on the outside are ill equipped to judge – now Ricketts goes from being a fan on the outside to being in the inside and seeing how Hendry works under Ricketts’ direction. That’s not twisting in the wind – it’s evaluation.
"We’re going to come back here next year healthy and do what we’re supposed to do, and we’re going to be all right. That’s not Hendry’s fault. He thought it was the right move. It didn’t work out. But at the same time, he’s the same guy that put back-to-back championship teams together." - Aramis Ramirez
Because there's no chance whatsoever that Ricketts is playing a P.R. game here?
The man apparently seriously considering moving to the Grapefruit League??
I’m not making such an allegation mind you, just adding up what we’ve seen from the new owners and trying to make a cohesive explanation of it. This includes not dumping Bradley’s salary, and sitting back as the entire FA class of 2010 is getting taken off the board while our big-market team sits idly by.
It’s probably an unsolvable problem in the short-term (short of giving Hendry the ok to dump salary, and make some moves) – and the available players may not be there that fit into our roster in any case. But I sure didn’t expect a new owner to come in and sit on a weak hand.
by The Deputy Mayor of Rush Street on Dec 16, 2009 11:26 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
We don't need to sign the entire FA class of 2010.
We need a CF and most analysis had Byrd and Cameron as relatively equal options with different risks.
I don’t know the mind of Ricketts. I don’t know what he’s planning. That’s my point. There are a lot of people here who are SURE Ricketts hates Hendry as much as they do. But there’s no proof of that and really not even any suggestion of that.
"We’re going to come back here next year healthy and do what we’re supposed to do, and we’re going to be all right. That’s not Hendry’s fault. He thought it was the right move. It didn’t work out. But at the same time, he’s the same guy that put back-to-back championship teams together." - Aramis Ramirez
The man
is trying to figure out how to make his business successful. That includes on the field and on the ledger sheet. I think in another thread Al mentioned how Ricketts had to use debt to finance his purchase and I think someone else mentioned how our payroll flexibility will most likely become dependent on revenue streams from the team and not from Ricketts own pockets.
As much as some hate to believe, Ricketts is not an idiot. Personally I find it hard to believe that dumping Bradley and adding Cameron/whoever else wants to get thrown in there is the difference between the Cubs winning the division. If that’s the case, it’s best not to make a crazy deal just to get rid of Bradley if it isn’t putting the Cubs in a position to be contenders.
Instead you attempt to reconcile behind close doors to see how close you can get to making next year’s relationship better than the past years. If you are ok with what you hear then you move forward accordingly. As much as the fans hate Bradley, they will still show up at the ballpark (probably more so to spew venom at Bradley) and will still spend money and support the team. If you as the owner feel comfortable in sending Bradley back out into that and your team and coaching staff can get on board with that, then you don’t continue to attempt to make bad trades just to get rid of him.
/wild speculation
Also maybe, the team (coaching staff, players) have been silent on the issue is because they are preparing for the situation that has Bradley back on the team. They could all possibly want him gone, but might have been told how difficult it will be to get rid of Bradley without hurting the team.
One baseball game, he came to the plate and heard a woman in the crowd shout to the pitcher, "I'll make you a chocolate cake if you strike out that 'so-and-so'!" Says Strong: "I hit that ball out of the park. Then I looked at her like, 'Do I get a cake now?' "
It's strange
that many don’t trust Ricketts to do his own due diligence and instead want him to just make decisions off of their opinions.
I think Ricketts wants to know how Hendry got himself into this mess. Whether or not there were other parties that contributed and what their roles were. After doing so, probably after this year, he will make his decision on Hendry and we will be better off for him waiting and not just making a knee jerk decision.
Some complain about Hendry not being forward looking or having a longterm plan but at every turn they offer up knee jerk responses to situations and make themselves look hypocritical, etc.
One baseball game, he came to the plate and heard a woman in the crowd shout to the pitcher, "I'll make you a chocolate cake if you strike out that 'so-and-so'!" Says Strong: "I hit that ball out of the park. Then I looked at her like, 'Do I get a cake now?' "
by Villeslgr on Dec 16, 2009 11:43 AM CST up reply actions 3 recs
Rec'd
"We’re going to come back here next year healthy and do what we’re supposed to do, and we’re going to be all right. That’s not Hendry’s fault. He thought it was the right move. It didn’t work out. But at the same time, he’s the same guy that put back-to-back championship teams together." - Aramis Ramirez
Hendy was in win now mode.
And the whole city was hungry for it. Add to the mix an “owner” willing to spend someone else’s money and a GM who sees that if he can win a WS in the next two years he can probbaly keep his job with the future new owners, a few bad decisions and that is how Hendry got himself into this mess.
"I'd rather hit home runs you don't have to run as hard." -- Dave Kingman
by BucknerKongCardenal on Dec 16, 2009 11:35 PM CST up reply actions
That makes a lot of sense...
…and frankly, can you blame Ricketts for thinking just that?
Too many established players are under big contracts to think about trading them off right now for young talent, and the value you would get would be minimal. The best chance this club has of winning in 2010, is for their established players to stay healthy and produce.
Lastly, the payroll this year will be in the 140-145 range, I wouldn’t bank on it going any higher than that for 4-5 years.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
The question is who
I mean, trading for trading’s sake makes little sense. So, what do we have?
Contract clearing moves
A) Soriano – Let’s face it … only way this contract moves is if we eat it all. So, let’s pencil him as staying put.
B) Fukudome – I think teams would have interest in him, moreso than some people think … but the chances of netting a quality return? I’m not sure it’s that high. As great as his defense is as a corner OF, he lacks power.
C) Zambrano – Due to his contract, I’m not sure now is the best time to deal him. With 3 years and a lot of money remaining, I’m not sure if we could land a quality return.
D) Aramis – We’re dealing at a low point if we move him, unless a team decides to surprise. Coming off injury, I’m not sure a team forks over a great package.
E) Lee – His value is probably as high as it’ll get in the upcoming years, coming off a big year with only one year left on a deal. Therein lies part of the problem – one year left, and we aren’t likely to get much.
F) Dempster – I think he’d net you a quality return. He’s been well worth his contract so far and has shown that he’s a solid number 2 starter.
G) Lilly – I think he’d net you a fairly solid return as well, but you’d probably max out his value after he comes back. That said, I wouldn’t be surprised if a team gave decent value now based on his history.
H) Grabow – Some team may give something more than expected at midseason, when teams typically make some dumb moves for pen arms.
Value moves
H) Marmol – Do you really move him now for prospects? He’s probably got a few solid years as a closer in him.
I) Wells – Did he overperform? Probably, but he’s cheap and can likely be a solid back end starter.
J) Soto – The only way you should deal him is if you get a better talent in return. Otherwise, I’d give him another twirl.
K) Theriot – Unless you have better, you might as well deal with what you know rather than going on the market and getting a similar value player for likely just as much, if not more.
I wouldn’t deal any of the last 4 right now. Grabow probably can’t net much right now. Soriano is basically staying put. In Fukudome’s case, you probably can’t net that much. Is dealing for dealing’s sake worth it? In Zambrano and Aramis’ case, you are dealing them from a relatively low position. Is taking pennies for the dollar worth it?
That leaves Lee, Dempster, Lilly as guys you could now, or early in the season, and likely get a decent return. While it might be a gamble to some, based on the solid last 2 years, I’d rather stick with Demspter, particualrly as he’s known as a good clubhouse guy. As for Lee/Lilly, I’m not against moving them in-season. If you keep the rest of the group, though, then you might as well keep these two at the start of the year. Their value won’t dramatically drop barring injury or an absolutely huge dropoff in performance, and you might as well roll the dice and see if you get lucky, and play out the string on this core.
That’s my take at least. If you believe in dealing for dealing’s sake and clearing some salary, with say, a Fukudome move, or dealing Z or Aramis from a relatively weak position, then sure, a firesale would probably be alright.
by toonsterwu on Dec 16, 2009 10:07 AM CST reply actions 5 recs
Long and short of it is
most of the players we’d move would not lose much value and in many of the cases actually gain value by playing half a season. We also don’t want to jump the gun – the Cards are carrying two injury-risky pitchers in a rotation without depth.
"We’re going to come back here next year healthy and do what we’re supposed to do, and we’re going to be all right. That’s not Hendry’s fault. He thought it was the right move. It didn’t work out. But at the same time, he’s the same guy that put back-to-back championship teams together." - Aramis Ramirez
Unless the team is 10 games under .500 by trade deadline
I don’t think they’re going to be trading.
Marmol, Wells, Soto, Theriot are all cheap and therefore I think will be on the Cubs for atleast 2-3 years.
I also find it hard to believe that they’d trade Zambrano over any circumstance. While he might not be liked on here by some, he’s a fan favorite in Chicago. Trading away popular players your first year as an owner is not a popular move IMO.
Don't forget
that a lot of these guys have no trade clauses in their contracts as well.
thats the crux of it
and why we shouldn’t “rip down everything” in a rebuild way until after 2010 or mid season 2010 if things go horribly wrong
that being said, we should operate under an honest assumption that it would do us more good now to pump money into the draft in preparation for a rebuilding period than to pump it into middling FA options just to spend for the sake of spending
by DartmouthCubsFan on Dec 16, 2009 11:43 AM CST up reply actions
+1 and rec'd
Toonster – I always enjoy reading your posts. You lay out your position very coherently and manage to do so without totally berating the OP (even when maybe they deserve it). I wish more folks would take your lead.
interesting analysis. Another way to view the potential trade value is to conjecture would a general manger really want ANY . . .
. . .of these players at other than a bargain price? Whom do you see (from the above list) as a franchise player or a team building block?
An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.
HL Mencken
We'll be a pitcher short in 2011
Why not make a big splash and sign Cliff Lee to a long-term deal? Personally I have no problem with my team overpaying for a proven pitcher.
It’s guys like Soriano and Fukudome I have these problems with overpaying.
It's the big splashes..
That have us in this mess! We don’t need big splashes we need more homegrown talent which allows us to pick and choose in the market.
I would sleep with Blou if it meant the Cubs would win a WS. by Doggie Stalker on Aug 22, 2009 4:11 PM EDT
by cubsluver22 on Dec 16, 2009 10:26 AM CST up reply actions
You get to the playoffs with a combination
of free agent splashes and home-grown talent. We don’t get to the playoffs in 2007 w/o both Rich Hill and Alfonso Soriano. The team in 2008 was so solid because you’ve got Fukudome teaching the lineup patience and rookies having great seasons.
"We’re going to come back here next year healthy and do what we’re supposed to do, and we’re going to be all right. That’s not Hendry’s fault. He thought it was the right move. It didn’t work out. But at the same time, he’s the same guy that put back-to-back championship teams together." - Aramis Ramirez
I understand that but...
this isn’t 2007 nor is it 2008! I’m talking about the state of the Cubs going forward. Were at a point now we have quite a few pressing needs and no prospects or money to fill them. It’s only gonna keep getting worse. At some point it has to stop and that time is now. Even if we make trades to shed payroll only, I’m all for it. That will allow Ricketts to speed up his plan to renovate and hopefully hire some front office/scouting staff. It will also allow him to pay a little more of his debt off which in turn postions him and the team to have more financial flexibility down the road so that we can make a SMART FA splash when needed.
I would sleep with Blou if it meant the Cubs would win a WS. by Doggie Stalker on Aug 22, 2009 4:11 PM EDT
by cubsluver22 on Dec 16, 2009 11:00 AM CST up reply actions
What are
quite a few pressing needs
?
and besides recent articles suggest we do have the ability to fill what we need to fill.
"We’re going to come back here next year healthy and do what we’re supposed to do, and we’re going to be all right. That’s not Hendry’s fault. He thought it was the right move. It didn’t work out. But at the same time, he’s the same guy that put back-to-back championship teams together." - Aramis Ramirez
Actually this "mess"
Got us to the post-season twice.
And if it wasn’t for the Cardinals making a big splash trade, we might have won the division last year as well.
There are some guys who are proven and when it comes to pitching that’s even bigger!
Perspective?
Nah, we can’t have a post with any of THAT … :)
There is wisdom in brevity. Good post, ak.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Dec 16, 2009 12:50 PM CST up reply actions
My theory on big contracts
Are that some are more deserving than others. Even a 20Mil. contract would pay dividends if its one of the best players in baseball. From advertising and ticket sales alone!.
These big signings need to fit a teams need. For example, I would have loved to have the Cubs sign A-Rod when he opted out of the Yankees. However we have a great 3B so we didn’t need him.
When it comes to pitching, you can never have enough and if that means signing a former Cy Young winner to a monster contract next year (Cliff Lee) then do it! If DLee is not on the team if Pujols ever becomes a free agent, sign him for whatever it takes (granted I don’t think he’d ever sign with Chicago out of respect to St. Louis even if he doesn’t play there).
The other thing about this
is that I’m not sure you want to trade Aramis at all. I’d really like a half year to see both Aramis and Vitters and where they stand, and even if Vitters is developing well, I may still want to keep Aramis around. If he exercises his player’s option, we have a nice team option following that. The point is that Aramis Ramirez is one of the more valuable players in baseball, and if he keeps taking less to stay with the Cubs, I’d not be quick to let him go. The other point is that if you write of 2010, you absolutely do not want to write of 2011. In 2011, the NL Central may be a Berkman-Fielder-Pujols-free environment.
"We’re going to come back here next year healthy and do what we’re supposed to do, and we’re going to be all right. That’s not Hendry’s fault. He thought it was the right move. It didn’t work out. But at the same time, he’s the same guy that put back-to-back championship teams together." - Aramis Ramirez
You have to trade....
Value to get Value!
I would sleep with Blou if it meant the Cubs would win a WS. by Doggie Stalker on Aug 22, 2009 4:11 PM EDT
by cubsluver22 on Dec 16, 2009 11:03 AM CST up reply actions
not always - see Rich Harden...
But anyway — the point is that Aramis seems more likely to be an asset to winning the next championship than what we’d get for him in trade.
"We’re going to come back here next year healthy and do what we’re supposed to do, and we’re going to be all right. That’s not Hendry’s fault. He thought it was the right move. It didn’t work out. But at the same time, he’s the same guy that put back-to-back championship teams together." - Aramis Ramirez
damned if you do
damned if you don’t with Ramirez. If he has a good season this year he will almost definitely opt out and go shopping for a 3 to 5 year contract. If he is hurt and/or is bad he will exercise his option and collect the $14+ million. In the mean time he has a no-trade clause and can control if and where he goes. If some of the other Cubs contracts are unmoveable, and you believe in Josh Vitters, it makes sense to approach Ramirez now about where he would be willing to go and try to move him sooner rather than later.
by circuitclout on Dec 16, 2009 11:24 AM CST up reply actions
Depends on what you mean by "now"
because I don’t really see trading Ramirez this off-season as a way to maximize his value. Teams are going to want to see him healthy to really pay for him, and if he’s healthy, he’s a top 5 3B, so the demand will be there.
"We’re going to come back here next year healthy and do what we’re supposed to do, and we’re going to be all right. That’s not Hendry’s fault. He thought it was the right move. It didn’t work out. But at the same time, he’s the same guy that put back-to-back championship teams together." - Aramis Ramirez
Ramirez showed he was healthy
by coming back in July and playing 3 full months of productive baseball. If he had been out all year or at the end of the year I think the injury concerns would be greater but I think the fact that he ended the year healthy coupled with a check of medical records and a physical should be enough for most teams. I think the damage done to his value is being overstated here a bit.
by circuitclout on Dec 16, 2009 11:56 AM CST up reply actions
??
.900 OPS+ 3B with average to above average defense who have great attitudes and love your ball club don’t exactly grow on trees. You just don’t trade Ramirez when your team can afford 100M+ payroll.
You keep Ramirez and trade OTHER players even if you aren’t ‘maxing the value’
by IllinoisCubs on Dec 16, 2009 11:50 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
all of that means nothing
when he opts out after 2010
by circuitclout on Dec 16, 2009 12:00 PM CST up reply actions
when or if?
One baseball game, he came to the plate and heard a woman in the crowd shout to the pitcher, "I'll make you a chocolate cake if you strike out that 'so-and-so'!" Says Strong: "I hit that ball out of the park. Then I looked at her like, 'Do I get a cake now?' "
when
the only way he doesn’t opt out is if he suffers a serious injury. Otherwise, he opts out and looks for guaranteed money.
by circuitclout on Dec 16, 2009 12:11 PM CST up reply actions
ok
I was just making sure because Ramirez hadn’t called me back yet.
One baseball game, he came to the plate and heard a woman in the crowd shout to the pitcher, "I'll make you a chocolate cake if you strike out that 'so-and-so'!" Says Strong: "I hit that ball out of the park. Then I looked at her like, 'Do I get a cake now?' "
by Villeslgr on Dec 16, 2009 12:25 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Last time he opted out
he still signed a below-market deal to stay with the Cubs.
"We’re going to come back here next year healthy and do what we’re supposed to do, and we’re going to be all right. That’s not Hendry’s fault. He thought it was the right move. It didn’t work out. But at the same time, he’s the same guy that put back-to-back championship teams together." - Aramis Ramirez
He is the 3rd highest paid 3B
behind ARod and Miguel Cabrera and he’s somewhere in the top 5 among 3rd basemen so I’d venture to guess he pretty much got his market value.
by circuitclout on Dec 16, 2009 12:37 PM CST up reply actions
cabrera isnt a 1b
Say no to Marlon Byrd, Scotty Pods, and Rick Ankiel.
by jesus christos on Dec 16, 2009 4:43 PM CST up reply actions
meant 3b
not 1b
Say no to Marlon Byrd, Scotty Pods, and Rick Ankiel.
by jesus christos on Dec 16, 2009 4:47 PM CST up reply actions
sorry
cabrera was a 3B when he signed his current contract and is listed among 3B on Cot’s, so that’s where I was coming from.
by circuitclout on Dec 16, 2009 8:28 PM CST up reply actions
oh
Say no to Marlon Byrd, Scotty Pods, and Rick Ankiel.
by jesus christos on Dec 16, 2009 8:32 PM CST up reply actions
Yeah, but when he signed it was already clear he was eating his way out of 3B
DH is next stop for Cabrera.
Now, that’s a contract I wouldn’t want to see my team owning, no matter how well Cabrera has hit.
Rec'd
"We’re going to come back here next year healthy and do what we’re supposed to do, and we’re going to be all right. That’s not Hendry’s fault. He thought it was the right move. It didn’t work out. But at the same time, he’s the same guy that put back-to-back championship teams together." - Aramis Ramirez
I thought
there was mention of moving Aramis to first after Lee’s contract iis up if Vitters is ready?
One baseball game, he came to the plate and heard a woman in the crowd shout to the pitcher, "I'll make you a chocolate cake if you strike out that 'so-and-so'!" Says Strong: "I hit that ball out of the park. Then I looked at her like, 'Do I get a cake now?' "
I do agree that 2010 is an important year.
If the Cubs don’t seriously contend, then the rebuilding process will begin.
Hendry and Lou will be gone, along with most of the coaching staff.
Then we’re looking at a few years of sub-.500 teams until we can shed the remaining so-so contracts.
If it doesn’t “HAPPEN!!!” in 2010, it’ll be awhile longer I think.
Now only 12,859 on the "Cubs Season Tickets Waiting List"...
that's exactly right
Starting the rebuilding process now doesn’t make a lot of sense. As other posters have noted, the Cubs aren’t in a good position with a lot of players to get a good return on a trade. Soto’s a great example — trading him now is possible, but what if he returns to 2008 form?
If the team isn’t contention by the trade deadline, I could see the Cubs making some deals. A team that thinks it can make a run could be persuaded to take someone like Zambrano of Fukudome.
But this nucleus — once Bradley is dealt — and Hendry and Lou should be given one more year.
Guess what, eg?
We agree again! Miracles do happen! :)
by Not Bruce Froemming on Dec 16, 2009 12:57 PM CST up reply actions
awesome
Pretty soon, we’re going to be a unified front.
Well,
let’s not get THAT crazy yet … :-)
by Not Bruce Froemming on Dec 16, 2009 1:50 PM CST up reply actions
I agree, but it would be nice to see them get a real CF
And not Byrd – that would just tie up more $ for more years.
I agree as well,
however, I also think that last year was an aberation. This team is only one year removed from winning 97 games. We had a lot of injuries and players that by far and away performed under there career numbers. I would like to believe that even with what we have assembled going forward this team can win potenially 90 games or so. Do you really think that is out of the question? Either way its only December, keep the faith!!
In Heaven there is no beer, That's why we drink it here, and when were gone from here, all our friends will be drinking all our beer!!
by By Santo's Grace on Dec 16, 2009 11:29 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
I'm sorry, who else is competing for the division?
Last year we lost Ramirez for two months, Soriano had the most horrific season of his career, Soto was essentially non-existent, Gregg/Marmol/Heilman the less said the better
Meanwhile Carpenter stays healthy and he and Wainwright contend for the Cy Young, Ryan Franklin and Joel Pineiro have the best seasons of their career while Matt Holliday has one of the most best second halfs of the decade
All of that and the Cubs ended up with 8 less wins than the Cards.
Even if the Cards sign Matt Holliday, you still are banking on Carpenter staying healthy, Franklin being one of the best closers in baseball, Penny becoming the 2010 Joel Pineiro, and oh yeah, Matt Holliday putting up a 1.000+ OPS. Even if all of that comes together, we still compete with that team.
Anyone of the other Central teams could surprise everyone like the Cardinals did in 2009 but there’s no reason to put up the White Flag.
by IllinoisCubs on Dec 16, 2009 11:46 AM CST reply actions 8 recs
agree
I feel the same way. This team could win the division with the talent on the team.
that's what I'm talking about!!
This team is fully capable of rebounding and competing in this division! Keep the faith!!
In Heaven there is no beer, That's why we drink it here, and when were gone from here, all our friends will be drinking all our beer!!
by By Santo's Grace on Dec 16, 2009 2:04 PM CST up reply actions
Don't get me wrong. I hope against hope that this is the year!
But looking at the whole line-up and 40 man roster with my head and not my heart, this really will be a “make-it” or “break-it-up” year. With the new owner especially, he’s going to want to put HIS stamp on the team after 2010.
Heck, they could make the playoffs and STILL see significant changes for 2011.
Just my opinion, mind you. Not gospel. I could be WRONG too. But I kinda don’t think so…
Now only 12,859 on the "Cubs Season Tickets Waiting List"...
Thank god not everyone is mailing '10 in already.
1 year removed from a 97 win team and every other post is a bitchfest about how bad we’re gonna be.
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
by cubswynn on Dec 16, 2009 2:33 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Exactly
Goodness, I am pissed at Hendry’s deals of Dome, Bradley and Soriano. However this team can win. I am more concerned with the bullpen, get a arm in the pen, have a healthy lineup and go from there.
This is the team, a blow up just won’t happen. Faith.
Here's the thing with me.
Hendry royally f’ed up last season. But I think he deserves the chance to redeem himself. Sure he’s spent a bunch of money to get us back to back division championships, but teams like the Mets also spend boatloads and miss the playoffs. So he has done a lot of good.
Soriano has been pretty good for the Cubs, when he’s healthy. His contract isn’t very good, but Hendry went balls out to get us a championship now, not later. I like that mentality, even if it screws us down the road. That’s my opinion.
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
I'm not sure he royally f'ed up
as much as every move he made backfired. He bet that Miles would continue to bat as he did with the Cards, that Gregg would bounce back from his knee injury, that Fontenot could become an everyday player and that Ramirez wouldn’t miss more than his usual 10-20 games. All good bets, but none came in.
Conversely, every move he made the previous season, including highly questionable ones (like bringing in Edmonds), paid off pretty well.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Dec 16, 2009 3:57 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Royally f'ed up, backfired, same things in my book.
Regardless most of the moves he made did not work. He took a 97 win team and tweaked things that didn’t need tweaking, resulting in negative net of 14 games.
You and I are on the same side regarding Hendry, but I think we can both admit that the ’08 offseason was pretty damn bad.
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
Royally f’ed up, backfired, same things in my book.
Do you hold yourself and those around you to that standard as well?
I anxiously await the reasonable trading of Milton Bradley.
Dum spiro spero... | Follow me on twitter or else: @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Dec 16, 2009 5:26 PM CST up reply actions
Exactly
Those aren’t one and the same. And things did need tweaking after ’08, as evidenced by the second consecutive postseason flameout.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Dec 16, 2009 5:48 PM CST up reply actions
Okay whatever.
Let’s leave the discussion of who’s using the phrases correctly out.
I never said the team didn’t need tweaking, reread what I wrote.
As someone who is a JH supporter, I can say without question that JH royally f’ed up last year because his plans backfired. How is that even an argument at this point? That doesn’t mean he can’t fixed what he messed up, but almost every ‘08 offseason move was a bad one. He resigned Reed, that was good. He didn’t waste money on Blanco and Hill did an excellent job backing up, that was good. He didn’t overspend on Wood, that was good.
JH is a good GM, but when your ‘09 offseason has thus far been about correcting your ’08 mistakes, that’s a pretty good indication that you messed up pretty good. No?
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
Sure.
Is that a bad thing?
Maybe we just have different ways of using those phrases. Say I’m at work and cost the company a bunch of money, despite having only the best of intentions. I royally f’ed up because my plans backfired.
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
I guess i just don't see the point...
… of saying he royally f’ed up when the moves he made weren’t obvious mistakes. If you do something that should work out fine, and it doesn’t, that is a backfire.
Different ways of saying the same thing, sure. But the severity of “royally f’ed up” seems unwarranted being that going in to the season, everybody favored the cubs to win the division.
I anxiously await the reasonable trading of Milton Bradley.
Dum spiro spero... | Follow me on twitter or else: @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Dec 17, 2009 10:27 AM CST up reply actions
Hindsight is definitely 20/20.
It’s not about whether or not the moves he made seemed like good moves at the time. The fact is that he took a 97 win team, tweaked all the wrong things, and had a net -14 game swing. 14 freaking games!!!!! In what world is that not royally f’ing up?!
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
well
he didn’t make the changes knowing what was going to happen. He was trying to make the team better.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Dec 17, 2009 11:05 AM CST up reply actions
Well Drew, they didn't.
Jim Hendry (who I actually like) made plenty of bad moves last offseason. He gets a chance, in my book, to correct those mistakes. But regardless of his intentions, he messed things up pretty good.
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
Did Hendry personally tweak Rami's shoulder?
I was there at that game in Milwaukee, and i didn’t notice him running out on the field to give Rami a shove or anything. Weird.
No matter how you feel about Hendry’s moves, attributing them to the 14 game difference in wins is unrealistic. There are many factors that were well beyond Hendry’s control that attributed to that number.
I’m no Hendry apologist, and i’d love to see him gone after 2010 if this season doesn’t do well. But blasting him for last season, considering the prior two and how we felt about the team going in to 2009, is unfair.
I anxiously await the reasonable trading of Milton Bradley.
Dum spiro spero... | Follow me on twitter or else: @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Dec 17, 2009 11:06 AM CST up reply actions
Again...
…this is coming from someone that is a Hendry supporter.
Of course Hendry didn’t tweak Rami’s shoulder, but he did trade away DeRo who could have filled in. He did sign Miles to be the DeRo replacement. Both of these moves are certainly the mistakes of Jim Hendry.
I think even Hendry would admit he made a lot of mistakes, as evidence of all the moves he’s made this offseason.
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
And at the time
those were all defensible moves, “mistakes” only in hindsight. By extension, you’re saying the loss of DeRosa is responsible for the Cubs’ futility last season. Never thought you were a DeRomantic, wynn. :)
Stone is correct. One thing the revisionist historians never have been able to square is that the Cubs were the overwhelming choice to win the division last year. How can that be so, if Hendry “f’ed up” so badly?
(And yes, wynn, I know you’re a Hendry supporter.)
by Not Bruce Froemming on Dec 17, 2009 12:15 PM CST up reply actions
The Cubs' expectations were so high...
because almost everyone expected the offense to be at least as good as 2008 and we would get a full year of Rich Harden. Aramis, Soriano and Soto’s injuries/lack of production coupled with the Aarons’ and the pitching staff being on a rotation of DL trips put those expectations out of reach.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Dec 17, 2009 12:21 PM CST up reply actions
Correct
If the so-called experts had thought Hendry’s dealing had crippled the team, they wouldn’t have picked it to win the division.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Dec 17, 2009 12:25 PM CST up reply actions
of course, it didn't hurt...
…that the rest of the division was perceived to be a bunch of crap.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Really? I never thought the Cards and Brewers were crap.
But what do I know?
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Dec 17, 2009 12:27 PM CST up reply actions
the point I was trying to make before you so rudely threw soup all over it...
…was that I think the so-called experts probably didn’t think much of the entire NL Central. So it wouldn’t have been that much of a stretch to still pick the Cubs to win it even if they thought Hendry had screwed up the team with his moves.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Definitely not a DeRomantic.
But he certainly would have been nice to have when Aramis went down. The reason he wasn’t around was a move that Hendry made.
You keep saying that the experts thought the Cubs would win the division. Who cares about what they thought would happen, it didn’t.
What’s important to me (as it relates to this discussion) is the fact that we had a -14 game swing. 3 of the players that Hendry acquired last offseason have been already been shipped out. 1 is handcuffing the team from making other moves this offseason. And DeRo was shipped to Cleveland when we could have used him (bad timing). If you’re entire offseason is correcting a bunch of mistakes you made the previous offseason, that my friend is a royal f up.
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
For someone who isn't a DeRomantic,
you sure center much of your argument around him.
True or false: Are the Cubs the first team in MLB history to underachieve?
They did. And that’s the reason for the 14-game swing, not because of any moves Hendry made.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Dec 17, 2009 3:13 PM CST up reply actions
To be fair...
I contend that had we kept DeRosa and he played 3rd in Ramirez’s absence…we wouldn’t have lost as many games as we did. But that, in and of itself, wouldn’t have changed the eventual outcome of the season.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Dec 17, 2009 3:22 PM CST up reply actions
That's not fair.
The absence of DeRo hurt the team last year, but that’s not the only thing I’ve cited.
The 14 game swing had nothing to do with moves Hendry made?! Seriously! If that wasn’t true, then why did he ship 3 away already and working on shipping another one away?
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
Because
they didn’t live up to expectations, like you do with players every year.
And you cited some other things, but the DeRo thing seems to be the centerpiece of your claim. You keep coming back to it.
Do you guys really think DeRosa would have made a 3-4 game difference in the standings? Ramirez certainly would have; then again, he’s an All-Star, an upper-echelon player. DeRosa isn’t.
A few fewer injuries and a few more Cubs playing the way they should and we wouldn’t be having this conversation.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Dec 17, 2009 3:44 PM CST up reply actions
This might be the point where we say agree to disagree.
I give Jim Hendry a lot of credit for constructing a 97 win team, but I will also fault him when that team fails so miserably the very next year.
The ’08 team was obviously darn good. In my opinion JH (and Lou to a lesser extent) overreacted to the playoff losses and created an inferior product.
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
Agree to disagree
I think the “projections” didn’t point to an inferior product, but I guess that’s why they play the games. How’s that for an original statement? :-)
by Not Bruce Froemming on Dec 17, 2009 4:08 PM CST up reply actions
And, truthfully,
the 2008 team might have overachieved a bit. Think about some of the games they won, and how they won them. That would be tough to duplicate, even if JH had left everything unchanged.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Dec 17, 2009 4:09 PM CST up reply actions
what?
they come back from 9 run deficits alla time. :P
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Dec 17, 2009 8:28 PM CST up reply actions
OK, here is another team
Throughout all his busy 2008-09 season, he neglected to replace Jim Edmunds in CF. He was a real element in the 2008 performance, and that position was not filled for 2009. Fukudome is a (good) RF, Soriano is a 2B/LF/DH, Bradley is a RF/LF/DH. Not a center fielder in the lot.
agree!
There is no reason for us to already throw in the towel for 2010.
Crap… even if MB comes back, we CAN still win it…. it will take work, but a team should EARN their place….
by TheHawkRules on Dec 16, 2009 2:41 PM CST up reply actions
Milton Bradley didn't lose those many games for the Cubs
It was his attitude that sucked.
I don’t like him or want him on the team but I’m not going to blame him for the Cubs not going to the post-season.
Maybe so, but how many games did MB win for the Cubs?
No one here is saying he is the reason the Cubs failed to make the postseason last year, but he sure did help them fail.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Dec 17, 2009 11:10 AM CST up reply actions
it was absolutely
a joint effort. Except for September/October, when he only played in 14 games, Bradley increased his AVG and OBP month to month over the entire season.
Mike Fontenot didn’t do that. Soriano didn’t do that. Fukudome didn’t do that. Ryan Theriot didn’t do that. Soto sure as hell didn’t do that.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Dec 17, 2009 11:13 AM CST up reply actions
BUT HE'S A JERK!
I anxiously await the reasonable trading of Milton Bradley.
Dum spiro spero... | Follow me on twitter or else: @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Dec 17, 2009 11:14 AM CST up reply actions
Jake Fox wasn't a jerk. HE should get the $21mill.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Dec 17, 2009 11:16 AM CST up reply actions
My mom says i'm a pretty nice guy.
I’ll take some!
I anxiously await the reasonable trading of Milton Bradley.
Dum spiro spero... | Follow me on twitter or else: @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Dec 17, 2009 11:17 AM CST up reply actions
And this would be you two going after the Grinch for liking Fox
What did Fox have to do with this?
It doesn’t and you know it.
Hah! Hilarious.
I anxiously await the reasonable trading of Milton Bradley.
Dum spiro spero... | Follow me on twitter or else: @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Dec 17, 2009 12:01 PM CST up reply actions
Eh, i'm fine with it.
The surest sign you’ve won a debate is when your opponent abandons his position and starts attacking you personally. At least if he’s lobbing “your momma” jokes at me i can be sure he’s worth ignoring, instead of being tempted to play his game.
I anxiously await the reasonable trading of Milton Bradley.
Dum spiro spero... | Follow me on twitter or else: @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Dec 17, 2009 12:44 PM CST up reply actions
That's because...
… it was a ‘your momma’ joke, the insult equivalent of finger painting.
Congrats dude, you’d be right at home in a third grade classroom, or a worthy competitor on a canceled MTV show hosted by Wilmer Valderrama!
I anxiously await the reasonable trading of Milton Bradley.
Dum spiro spero... | Follow me on twitter or else: @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Dec 17, 2009 1:28 PM CST up reply actions
You say you are on my side in the Bradley deal....
What would the difference be between you and Drew?
Let’s see If I can nail it.
You want him gone and think he is an ass but you do not want 21 million thrown away.
Drew wants him to stay. Period. thinks 21 million would be better spent on him than a replacement and does not see that he is such a bad guy.
Where am I wrong?
Again, i don't speak for Drew.
He’s made his position clear, and his position is just as valid as yours or mine or Al’s or SWL’s or Chilango’s or BLou’s or SuperSexyKittenPrincess666’s or…
Its not your position i take issue with. Your position is valid. Its the annoying, frivolous, repetitive way in which you choose to bash us over the head with it every day that is infuriating.
I’ve stated repeatedly that i get where everybody is coming from, no matter their opinion on how to handle Bradley. Its a tough issue. There is no easy answer. There is a lot of gray area. I’m interested in discussing it, hearing others ideas, debating civilly with those who think things i don’t grasp or agree with…
You choose to berate, insult, and generally be obnoxious towards anybody who doesn’t see it your way. THAT IS WHERE YOU ARE WRONG.
I anxiously await the reasonable trading of Milton Bradley.
Dum spiro spero... | Follow me on twitter or else: @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Dec 17, 2009 1:45 PM CST up reply actions
here's something for all the Big 10 fans out there...
Just for the heck of it, I did a google search on “super sexy kitten princess 666” and this was the first image that popped up.
btw, I left out the 666 on my first try and you can probably imagine what the results were – definitely NSFW. Interesting how adding 666 puts Miss Buckeye to the top of the list…
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Weird...in my archive I actually HAVE a picture named "super-sexy-kitten-princess-666.jpg"
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Dec 17, 2009 2:04 PM CST up reply actions
say it ain't so!
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Dec 17, 2009 2:35 PM CST up reply actions
I'm afraid it is so....
http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee6/ccwolfe75/super-sexy-kitten-princess-666.jpg
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Dec 17, 2009 2:56 PM CST up reply actions
Back in the day...
… when AOL was catching on big time, i dated (in the 8th grade sense of the term) a girl whose AIM screen name was “SexyBooBooKitten14”.
I don’t remember her real name, her face, how long we ‘dated’, anything about it… other than that screen name.
I anxiously await the reasonable trading of Milton Bradley.
Dum spiro spero... | Follow me on twitter or else: @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Dec 17, 2009 2:39 PM CST up reply actions
Not interesting...
Interesting how adding 666 puts Miss Buckeye to the top of the list…
… expected!
Go Iowa!
I anxiously await the reasonable trading of Milton Bradley.
Dum spiro spero... | Follow me on twitter or else: @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Dec 17, 2009 2:19 PM CST up reply actions
You have a very simplistic view of my position summarized there, yes.
You don’t seem to fully grasp Drew’s yet (or you enjoy taking it to its irrational extreme and using that as some basis for debate).
I anxiously await the reasonable trading of Milton Bradley.
Dum spiro spero... | Follow me on twitter or else: @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Dec 17, 2009 2:33 PM CST up reply actions
You are aware...
… that this is a community of cubs fans and not a shooting range though, right?
I anxiously await the reasonable trading of Milton Bradley.
Dum spiro spero... | Follow me on twitter or else: @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Dec 17, 2009 3:01 PM CST up reply actions
Sure am. And I was just like you at one point.
But I was attacked daily last summer during the games. Drew and Not Bruce being the main ones. So I felt the need to be sharper and not let them go after me because my opinion was a little different.
So I am the product of this “community of Cub fans”.
A bunch of people who can give it out but not be able to take it.
What is sad is its only about 6 on here that I am talking to. Everyone else has been very pleasant.
The more you talk...
the less you say.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Dec 17, 2009 3:24 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I don't doubt somebody was mean to you in a game thread.
I do seriously doubt that Drew and NBF just attacked you, unprovoked, one evening, for no good reason, but lets say i buy that for the sake of argument.
How, exactly, does you being snarky and unreasonable to everyone who doesn’t share your opinion atone for that? Doesn’t it just piss everyone else off in the same way you were upset last summer during the games?
If its all a vicious circle as you claim… then break it. Lobbing “Your mom” jokes at me isn’t going to help anything.
I anxiously await the reasonable trading of Milton Bradley.
Dum spiro spero... | Follow me on twitter or else: @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Dec 17, 2009 3:24 PM CST up reply actions
Yes... this must be an issue of manliness.
Perhaps we should compare the size of our genitals?
SWL said it better than i can. The more you talk, the less you say.
Let me know when you want to get back to baseball.
I anxiously await the reasonable trading of Milton Bradley.
Dum spiro spero... | Follow me on twitter or else: @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Dec 17, 2009 3:31 PM CST up reply actions
It wasn't one evening it was all the time.
Also there are very few that I argue with here. I agree with almost everyone else here except for the 5 or 6 I said before.
But whatever. I know whatever I say will be shredded by certain people.
I actually can bring myself to agree with people who do not like me here. See the post at the bottom of this thread. I thought Not Bruce had a good point.
So this
has been an intricate revenge plot? You bought books and studied honing your wittiness?
One baseball game, he came to the plate and heard a woman in the crowd shout to the pitcher, "I'll make you a chocolate cake if you strike out that 'so-and-so'!" Says Strong: "I hit that ball out of the park. Then I looked at her like, 'Do I get a cake now?' "
Dun dun DUUUUUUUN!
I anxiously await the reasonable trading of Milton Bradley.
Dum spiro spero... | Follow me on twitter or else: @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Dec 18, 2009 12:31 AM CST up reply actions
He's horrible at defense..
we’d lose 100 games with him in RF!
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Dec 18, 2009 10:47 AM CST up reply actions
you're wrong in all of it.
I simply don’t want to take an unreasonable loss on the trade. We should not pay more than $6mill of Bradley’s 2011 salary, and 2010 should be a wash between the two players.
If he cannot be traded in such a scenario, I think we should keep him, and have him play. Milton Bradley is NOT bad at baseball.
Dumping $21million is BAD FOR THE TEAM, and WOULD NOT allow Hendry to make any other deals in the offseason anyway.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Dec 17, 2009 1:51 PM CST up reply actions
Just for clarification
When Bradley signed for 30 million , did you think it was a good idea?
Were you worried about his past? Just wondering. i wasn’t here yet.
Yes, I thought it was a good idea. I liked the way he talked, I liked the way he played the game. I still think that Bradley could be productive for the Cubs. Every day it gets a little harder, of course.
But that has no bearing on the fact that I want a REASONABLE trade for him if he leaves.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Dec 17, 2009 2:37 PM CST up reply actions
You are pretty optimistic there
Really, Bradley is a $5M-$6M/year player at best, so there is a least a $10M discount coming. Then there is the ’"can’t stay with a team more than one year" problem.
maybe it's time
to break that pattern.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Dec 17, 2009 8:29 PM CST up reply actions
For the pattern to change, Bradley has to change
We’ll see what happens in Seattle, but Chicago is another “1 and gone” for MB.
Prediction.
After 2011, Bradley will be out of baseball.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
No chance.
As long as he can play to his career norms, some team will take a chance. I do suspect he’ll see nothing but short, incentive laden contracts from now on though. Hendry likely awarded him his last multi year deal.
I anxiously await the reasonable trading of Milton Bradley.
Dum spiro spero... | Follow me on twitter or else: @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Dec 19, 2009 9:40 AM CST up reply actions
Look at it this way.
He is on his 8th team. None of them will take him back. Of the remaining 22, probably half of them would have little use for a 34-year-old who will be, by then, mostly a DH with injury issues, and the rest of them won’t be able to afford even an incentive-laden contract.
Those teams would simply go to a younger player who can put up that kind of production.
I repeat: Milton Bradley will be out of baseball after 2011.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Agreed but
In 2009 we were the front-runners to win the division. I really believe in 2010, they belongs to Cardinals. Cubs need to re-prove to us the fans they can compete and that starts with our regular players having the years they should be having.
Tim McCarver?
“Cubs need to re-prove to us the fans they can compete and that starts with our regular players having the years they should be having.”
Tim McCarver, is that you?
If you want to crown the Cards frontrunners, crown their arses! For the reasons I listed above, I think it’s foolish but if it didn’t work for us in 2009, who needs it for 2010?
by IllinoisCubs on Dec 16, 2009 9:12 PM CST up reply actions
To be fair
I’ve always considered the team that wins a division to be the biggest front-runner. They have momentum on their side and if they sign Holliday they wouldn’t have changed the core of their team too much.
I still think Cubs can win the division but it might start off by chasing another teams (like they did with the Brewers in 2007).
Cards seem like the team to beat. Without Holiday - an increasing likelihood - they have payroll room, four good to excellent starters and Pujols.
An optimist is a man who upon discovering that a rose smells better than a cabbage concludes it will make better soup.
HL Mencken
Dont Trade ARAM
Anyone else undera big contract should go before Aramis
It depends.
He has the opt out clause coming up and if the win/loss record doesn’t look too good, he may lean toward departing.
While I want Aramis to stay, keeping him can’t be an absolute (NTC excepted) if things are going poorly in May/June of 2010.
at daver's request, Let's frontload this B**ch!
The Ricketts have gotten off to an inauspices start
Strike one for me was not hiring a top flight baseball man as Team President.
Strike two was retaining Jim Hendry and letting him see if he can get this thing pointed in the right direction in the face of a maxed out payroll and little help on the way from the farm system. Which is plum darn goofy. As someone said above, Genius Jim doesn’t have a magic wand to wave in order to extricate himself from this mess in short order.
Bottom line….2010 is going to get real ugly. And everybody will be sitting on the sidelines howling for the Ryne Sandberg era to arrive too, which creates a whole other big bad bushel full of worms.
The Blackhawks and the Stanley Cup in 2010.
by BLou on Dec 16, 2009 12:27 PM CST reply actions 3 recs
Make that "inauspicious"
The Blackhawks and the Stanley Cup in 2010.
Already turning on Ricketts
LOL
"We’re going to come back here next year healthy and do what we’re supposed to do, and we’re going to be all right. That’s not Hendry’s fault. He thought it was the right move. It didn’t work out. But at the same time, he’s the same guy that put back-to-back championship teams together." - Aramis Ramirez
I'm not completely on his side, but Ricketts had really known for some time that the sale would go through
Most of the final court stuff was a formality. So they really could have been better prepared to take charge of baseball operations at the beginning, by hiring their own advisor and maybe a president.
you're presuming
Ricketts didn’t WANT Hendry.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Dec 17, 2009 8:30 PM CST up reply actions
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Dec 16, 2009 12:53 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I'm still staring at it and haven't seen a bunny or whatever.
at daver's request, Let's frontload this B**ch!
It's a schooner!
www.facebook.com/craighudak
by Craig in South Bend on Dec 16, 2009 2:31 PM CST up reply actions
I *THINK* it's a heart with an arrow through it.
But now I have a headache from staring at it. Thanks a bunch SWL!
Now only 12,859 on the "Cubs Season Tickets Waiting List"...
Thank you, thank you. It was nothing really...
But blood is coming out of my ear. Is that bad thing?
Now only 12,859 on the "Cubs Season Tickets Waiting List"...
Now I can't hear. ;)
Eh? What’s that you say sonny?
Now only 12,859 on the "Cubs Season Tickets Waiting List"...
sonny? you calling me sonny?
wow – first time I’ve ever been “cool” in my life. Thanks tubbs.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
♪♫ Take a good, hard look at this muthaf***in' boat! ♪♫
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
you forgot the
“ha, ha, ha, you dumb bastard” part but I’ll give partial credit for the Mallrats reference.
"You said keep your eyes out of focus, which is misleading. You want deep focus!
I see something that could be a spaceship. Is it round? Is it pointy?"
"I have the time and hatred but not the knowledge." ~Madison Cub Fan (Aug. 25, 2009)
p.s. I liked that 3-D, magical colors thing.....do it again sometime!
A woman's guess is more accurate than a man's certainty.--Rudyard Kipling
by cooliogirl47 on Dec 17, 2009 8:36 AM CST up reply actions
hehehe ;)
A woman's guess is more accurate than a man's certainty.--Rudyard Kipling
by cooliogirl47 on Dec 17, 2009 3:39 PM CST up reply actions
So let me get this straight
You don’t want him to keep Hendry because he is handcuffed by a maxed out payroll? What is your solution? No GM would want to step into that situation, much less a good one. You often
to finish
you often…come to quick conclusions without thinking the entire process through. Now would not be the best time to look for a new GM. Hendry is handcuffed for the most part.
thats realists do, right?
Say no to Marlon Byrd, Scotty Pods, and Rick Ankiel.
by jesus christos on Dec 16, 2009 4:46 PM CST up reply actions
so a few weeks after taking control
Ricketts is already on strike three with you?
Boy. It really must suck to be you. The Cubs haven’t even played a GAME with Ricketts as the new owner, and you’re basically only giving him one chance.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Dec 16, 2009 3:24 PM CST up reply actions
He gave him 2 strikes Drew...
it’s only fair.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Dec 16, 2009 3:33 PM CST up reply actions
ah, always
with the on-target comment.
Except not so much.
My comments about Ricketts are public on this board. I think Ricketts is smart to not be willing to fling $21million out the window, yes.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Dec 16, 2009 10:37 PM CST up reply actions
Its predictable because you were all about Bradley during the season
Before the trade talk started. You always made excuses for his sorry ass.
So don’t start your crap about money now.
If this team has to eat the 21 million, so be it. It is better than having him here.
There is also 21 million reasons Hendry should go.
you're cute
but in that ugly dog sort of way…
Suggesting that this team simply eat $21mill is extremely shortsighted, and hurts the Cubs.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Dec 17, 2009 9:42 AM CST up reply actions
Do you really need to post your family pictures on here?
If you get your wish and he returns, I hope you enjoy the circus.
ar ar ar
There doesn’t need to be a circus. Of course, expecting the media to act like responsible adults is a recipie for dissapointment.
Without getting a good return for Bradley, any trade is a loss. Now, you can eat the loss, up to a certain amount, but after a point, it becomes worse to eat the money. To me, that point is about $6mill. Any deal that requires the Cubs to eat more than half of Bradley’s salary hurts the team.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Dec 17, 2009 10:00 AM CST up reply actions
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HX0fIi3H-es
Replace money with “unrealistic ideas” and this sums up blou’s posts
Say no to Marlon Byrd, Scotty Pods, and Rick Ankiel.
by jesus christos on Dec 16, 2009 7:14 PM CST up reply actions
Are all of you saying wthe Cubs do not need to have a baseball guy as team president?
They have not had one to talk Hendry out of some of his dumber moves.
I also see everyone trusts Hendry to get out of the mess he created. That is some serious faith. Wow!
Its kind of neat to sit back and watch everything BLou posts ripped to shreds. Same thing happens to the Grinch. Quite often he has a decent point.
yes, that's what I'm saying
I would guess that some teams have baseball guys as team president, some teams have a baseball guy serving in both roles, and for some teams – the GM is the baseball guy. For an experienced GM like Hendry, I have no problem with him being the top “baseball guy” in the organization. That’s his job. And if he makes dumb moves – or more accurately, makes enough dumb moves – then he ought to be fired/replaced.
If you’re promoting from within or hire an Asst GM type from another team, then you’d probably want a strong baseball guy as president to provide leadership and guidance. But if you bring another strong, experienced GM type on board, then again – that’s his job. He (or she) IS the baseball guy and should be held accountable accordingly.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Then I believe Jim has made enough dumb moves to get fired.
The Bradley fisasco is almost reason enough.
the only opinion that matters in this case
is Ricketts’.
Hendry isn’t going anywhere.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Dec 16, 2009 10:38 PM CST up reply actions
He will, its just a matter of time.
Your boy Bradley is a giant mistake on Hendry’s resume. This off season is being held hostage while Jim tries to fix last years mistakes.
Bradley is the gift that keeps on giving.
that's BS.
And even if it’s not, simply releasing Bradley doesn’t HELP the Cubs, because the Cubs have to pay that salary anyway.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Dec 17, 2009 9:42 AM CST up reply actions
You don't think the Cubs inability to do anything big this offseason isn't because of Hendry's Bradley issue?
If it isn’t tell me why….
tell me why you think simply releasing Bradley and eating $21million would help the Cubs do something “big” in the offseason.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Dec 17, 2009 10:01 AM CST up reply actions
You did not answer the question
My question was about the cubs inability to do anything because of Bradley’s contract.
Try again.
I'll answer your question
when you explain why you think releasing Bradley will make any difference.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Dec 17, 2009 10:39 AM CST up reply actions
I have many times. They are the same as Al's.
He is a cancer that does more harm to the team than help it.
One more time……Do you think that his contract is not the reason the Cubs are strapped for cash right now?
How about you Andrew Stone, can you answer this for Drew? He can’t.
Jim is unable to trade him right now because nobody wants to pay him because he is an expensive tool. Why would they take this contract on? Do you believe this is holding anything major up?
I don't speak for drew.
But i’ll happily share my position, once again, as you seem to need to be reminded daily.
I would prefer to see MB go. All other context and issues aside, that would please me.
But it isn’t that simple. Nobody wants him for anything more than free, it seems. His value is very low. Now, that low value seems to be based far more upon his attitude and psyche than his baseball abilities. He’s an unlikeable guy that nobody wants around, yet i haven’t seen a reasonable argument as to how that hurts the team he plays for in terms of wins and losses. I’m far more interested in wins and losses than the likability of the team. I’m not convinced chemistry is as important as on field skill. Nobody we’d get in return for MB would make up for what we’d lose in that.
Now, understanding all of that, it is my opinion (and not a popular one, i’ll admit) that paying him $21 million to sit at home (zero potential to make my favorite baseball team better) or paying him $21 million to play for Texas or the Rays or some other competitor (zero potential to make my favorite baseball team better) while taking on some crap contract or worthless player (actually making the team worse, in the grander roster spots / long term payroll options scheme of things) is unwise.
He is a cancer that does more harm to the team than help it.
I get that you feel that way. I’m OK with it. You are entitled to your opinion, just like i am mine, and drew is his. You can’t prove it, and neither can we. Your obsession with poking anybody who doesn’t agree with you with a stick and seeing if you can stir up a debate is laughable at this point, as this debate isn’t going anywhere. You’ve decided how you feel and you won’t be changing your mind, and you aren’t going to convince me that throwing away what amounts to like 15% of this teams payroll this season is whats best for the team.
As to the idea that this is holding something up, maybe. You don’t really know that… you only know that nothing major has happened. We do know that the teams main “need”, a CF, is based upon the teams ability to move MB, and it would be unwise to sign somebody who’s job is to replace a guy who isn’t gone.
At this point (in my, and apparently the team’s opinion) there hasn’t been an offer / rumor / move that was good enough to warrant trading bradley. Releasing him is akin to flushing $21 million down the toilet. You are salty that Bradley is “holding up” other moves. I’m happy the team hasn’t rushed to dump Bradley at any cost, as doing so would waste $21 million, and have the effect of doing exactly what you lament… handicap them in making other moves.
I anxiously await the reasonable trading of Milton Bradley.
Dum spiro spero... | Follow me on twitter or else: @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Dec 17, 2009 11:52 AM CST up reply actions
that's not the question I'm asking
How do you think that eating $21 million will allow Hendry to make a “big” offseason move?
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Dec 17, 2009 11:58 AM CST up reply actions
You can't make good decisions on an empty stomach Drew!
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Dec 17, 2009 11:59 AM CST up reply actions
speaking of which
it’s time for lunch. The caramel and chocolate covered popcorn I’ve been eating all day shouldn’t be alone!
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Dec 17, 2009 12:01 PM CST up reply actions
May I suggest bacon?
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Dec 17, 2009 12:02 PM CST up reply actions
No soup?
I anxiously await the reasonable trading of Milton Bradley.
Dum spiro spero... | Follow me on twitter or else: @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Dec 17, 2009 12:03 PM CST up reply actions
You guys aren't in Soup Club. Open enrollment isn't until February.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Dec 17, 2009 12:04 PM CST up reply actions
Will there be hazing?
I anxiously await the reasonable trading of Milton Bradley.
Dum spiro spero... | Follow me on twitter or else: @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Dec 17, 2009 12:06 PM CST up reply actions
I only join clubs with lots of hazing.
I anxiously await the reasonable trading of Milton Bradley.
Dum spiro spero... | Follow me on twitter or else: @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Dec 17, 2009 12:07 PM CST up reply actions
The first rule of Soup Club...
is never talk about Soup Club. The Second Rule of Soup Club…is don’t spill soup.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Dec 17, 2009 12:08 PM CST up reply actions
So the last rule of Soup Club...
… is that if this is your first time to Soup Club, you must… eat?
"Juuuuuuussst a bit outside. He tried for the corner and missed..."
- Harry Doyle
by Rusty in Peoria on Dec 17, 2009 1:20 PM CST up reply actions
Slurp
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Dec 17, 2009 3:26 PM CST up reply actions
TWSS
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Dec 17, 2009 3:38 PM CST up reply actions
alas
bacon gives me, uh, the Troubles. My bacon intake is strictly limited.
I do, however, have chocolate pudding.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Dec 17, 2009 12:28 PM CST up reply actions
Almost every rumor during the winter meetings had the words "if the Cubs can move Bradley" in it.
did you miss this?
why, it’s almost like they were carved in stone!
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Dec 17, 2009 10:39 AM CST up reply actions
doesn't Hendry have a contract too???
how many contracts can an owner “eat”? IM-most-HO I say make Hendry try to get out of this mess, he’s not a bad GM and it couldn’t get much worse….then fire him at end of contract….and I say play MB in a minimal role, (Kosuke /Bradley in RF) it might be the only way someone will take him and the Cubs get some money for him.
A woman's guess is more accurate than a man's certainty.--Rudyard Kipling
by cooliogirl47 on Dec 17, 2009 11:03 AM CST up reply actions
Same thing happens to the Grinch.
yeah, only he can make jake fox make look like pujols
Say no to Marlon Byrd, Scotty Pods, and Rick Ankiel.
by jesus christos on Dec 16, 2009 10:12 PM CST up reply actions
Who cares if he has inflated opinion of Fox. Is that all you have?
Were you a Fox hater during the season?
i dont hate fox
i just find the constant slobbering over fox, derosa, johnson etc very annoying
Say no to Marlon Byrd, Scotty Pods, and Rick Ankiel.
by jesus christos on Dec 16, 2009 10:25 PM CST up reply actions
Fox was his favorite player
But he has started calling him a good bench player now in posts. That is true. He was a good bench player, I am not sure who they have now besides Hoff who might park one of the bench.
Is he Pujos. Nope. But he is right, Fox leaving did weaken the bench.
im sure if it bothered hendry that much
he could trade scraps to the mets to get dubois back or pay matt stairs minimum salary to PH
Say no to Marlon Byrd, Scotty Pods, and Rick Ankiel.
by jesus christos on Dec 16, 2009 10:42 PM CST up reply actions
actually if you look at his stats, Scales is a better bench player
and Scales out hit Fox in PH situations as well
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
It's possible you might get your wish.
Bradley’s salary for 2010 is a wash; Hendry is hung up on getting some of the 2011 salary eaten, and that’s the major hangup for the deal.
With a metric ton of money coming off the books after 2010, why would Hendry be hung up on that, unless the Cubs believe they will massively cut payroll next year?
probably ...
because the metric ton comes from Lee and Lilly — two guys they’d like to re-sign.
No!
We still have enough to win… we CAN do it.
There is no reason to just quit and start a “rebuilding process.”
If Hendry see’s a good oppertunity to get some good, young talent, and it won’t be by tearing the team apart… then, go for it. Other than that, this team still has enough, especially with a small adjustment here and there… to win.
Yawn.
These lame posts are going to make for a long offseason. Funny to me how many fans are already mailing in the ’10 season.
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
and it's not even 2010 yet
That’s rich = )
by IllinoisCubs on Dec 16, 2009 9:14 PM CST up reply actions
Just Play Ball
I cant wait till ST starts and they just get on the field
A woman's guess is more accurate than a man's certainty.--Rudyard Kipling
The 2010 Cubs aren't going anywhere.
I am as big of a Cubs fan as anyone else, but it is just plain reality that the 2010 Cubs are no better than a 3rd place team as they stand right now. After last year’s debacle, do you really think that getting rid of Rich Harden, Reed Johnson, and Jake Fox while replacing them with Marlon Byrd and a bunch of kids is going to make them contend?
Even if some of the players improve this year, the Cardinals will get a full year from Matt Holliday, have signed Brad Penny (who will probably improve under Dave Duncan), and have a far superior rotation to ours. Even if they don’t sign Mark DeRosa, they’re line-up has more punch than ours.
The Brewers signed Randy Wolf, who I admit is no Cliff Lee or Roy Halliday, but he always seems to give the Cubs problems. They are also in talks to get Brandon Morrow from the Mariners. Their line-up also is superior to the Cubs line-up.
Meanwhile, the Cubs have gotten rid of a few quality guys (not superstars, just good quality guys) while replacing them with a couple mediocre kids, and now potentially Marlon Byrd. We also haven’t been able to get rid of Bradley yet because someone just doesn’t know when to admit when they were wrong. Face it: You’re going to pay almost all the contract or release him and pay all of it. Pick one already. Cubs fans are tired of it.
We basically have two legitimate threats in our line-up: Derrek Lee and Aramis Ramirez (when healthy). If Ramirez goes down, we’ll have to plug the hole with Jeff Baker, and then Fontenot will have to play 2B (or Pineilla’s buddy, Bobby Scales, after they re-sign him). After Soriano has his annual injury, we’ll have to put someone like Sam Fuld out there, or one of our AAA outfielder prospects that is all defense and no offense. We literally have no bench right now and we’ve only made moves to make it worse this offseason.
The problem with this team was not pitching (except for the bone-headed closer decision)—it was OFFENSE. When is everyone going to get it through their heads? How many games did we watch where the Cubs scrambled to score even 2 runs, even against AAA nobodies. If they can’t score against nobodies, how are they supposed to do in the playoffs? Rather, how are they supposed to even make the playoffs? Is Marlon Byrd the answer to our offensive problems? I’d rather have Reed Johnson.
The point is, that when the Ricketts came in they should have immediately cleaned house and put competent people in the important positions that needed changes. I’m sure that I can speak on behalf of most Cubs fans (those with brains anyway) that we’re tired of watching the other GM’s make moves to set up other moves, getting rid of guys they don’t want (like Pierre or Millwood) while getting decent prospects or players in return. I’ve spent the last several weeks watching real GM’s make moves with the goal of winning it all for their fans and players. The excuses I’ve heard from the Cubs management, along with the brown-nosing articles written in support of their moves, is absolutely nauseating.
I have a feeling this year that Wrigley Field is going to be a lot like it was at the end of last year. Lots of empty seats, lots of booing, frustrated fans, and players playing like they are half asleep. It’s sad what has happened, but it doesn’t appear to be changing anytime soon.
If they want to liven up this franchise a little bit (and the players), they should just go ahead and sign Mark DeRosa and stick him back at 2B where he belongs. Sign someone like Scott Podsednik to play CF or RF (Fukudome can play the other) and let him lead-off. Re-sign Reed Johnson for spot starts, defensive replacements, and for pinch hits. Get another quality starter who will eat innings, such as Jon Garland. If it takes raising the payroll a little bit, it’s not going to break anybody.
If they made those moves, the Cubs might just get close. I won’t hold my breath though.
by TheGrinch13 on Dec 16, 2009 4:17 PM CST reply actions 2 recs
So what would you say was the main reason the offense took such a nosedive from 2007?
Besides injuries.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Dec 16, 2009 4:25 PM CST up reply actions
2007=2008
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Dec 16, 2009 4:27 PM CST up reply actions
my take on this
is the 2008 team had a number of players having career offensive years
basically we got production out of CF we can’t expect again (Edmonds/Reed Johnson)
we got elite production from DeRosa and Fontenot and though I think Soto can bounce back he had an incredible offensive year as well
we had an OPS+ of above 107 at every position with the exception of RF
http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/split.cgi?t=b&team=CHC&year=2008
by DartmouthCubsFan on Dec 16, 2009 8:09 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I agree with this totally. This team overpreformed in 2008.
Reality waited until the playoffs to return.
Sign someone like Scott Podsednik
HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAA!
Lots of empty seats? Good. Means I’ll be able to get tickets.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Dec 16, 2009 4:28 PM CST up reply actions
Cubs already have a LF and a RF, right?
I’d agree if Pods was a CF.
at daver's request, Let's frontload this B**ch!
We have 2 RF'ers
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Dec 16, 2009 4:38 PM CST up reply actions
If you pay a guy to sit at home, is he still a rf'er?
at daver's request, Let's frontload this B**ch!
if he's being paid to sit at home...
…I think he’d be a ROFL’er.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Dec 16, 2009 11:05 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
if a team decided they need him like say in Aug....do the Cubs still have to pay him?
A woman's guess is more accurate than a man's certainty.--Rudyard Kipling
by cooliogirl47 on Dec 17, 2009 8:15 AM CST up reply actions
Yes-Jim will still be cutting him a check.
I would love to hear Ricketts true feelings on this deal.
He is a Cub fan, right?
...so he'll be collecting 2 checks???????
I wonder how many teams are sitting on their a$$e$ waiting for that? He would probably take nothing just to get back in the game. GRRRRR
A woman's guess is more accurate than a man's certainty.--Rudyard Kipling
by cooliogirl47 on Dec 17, 2009 8:33 AM CST up reply actions
If the Cubs just released him he would get the 21 million and anyone picking him up would just have to pay him the minimum league salary.
I think at that price many teams would take a chance. When he pulls his usual crap that team could just get rid of him without a giant financial hit.
GRRRRR indeed…Thanks again Jim Hendry!
BUT HES NICE
LIKE JAKE FOX
Say no to Marlon Byrd, Scotty Pods, and Rick Ankiel.
by jesus christos on Dec 16, 2009 4:47 PM CST up reply actions
awesome
GETITDONEHENDRY
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
you need
a new topic. This one doesn’t get you any traction anymore.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Dec 16, 2009 10:40 PM CST up reply actions
TJ, it's okay to disagree with Drew, but
replying to every comment he makes with a snide Bradley reference is not adding anything to the discussion.
The four opinions of Bradley (as of today) are all valid and time will tell what actually happens.
1. Bradley has to go, sooner the better, I don’t care how.
2. Bradley has to go, now, but Hendry/Lou really botched the way this was handled to eliminate any leverage and allow the team to salvage max payroll.
3. Bradley may stay, but only because the team won’t eat the contract.
4. Bradley should stay regardless of the locker room as it’s sunk cost and he provides the best possible bat in RF if he turns it around.
There are good arguments for all four and you are entitled to yours. So is Drew.
at daver's request, Let's frontload this B**ch!
by N Oakley on Dec 17, 2009 9:01 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
I agree with all four of your Bradley points
As far as Drew, he attacks me all the time and I don’t get the same backing. So I will do what I have to. It is amazing that he needs so much help. He picks little fights and can’t take any heat back. Then his buddies have to come help him out.
If I put any kind of fan post on here, do you think for a minute there would not be a response from him attacking me? Whatever the topic is?
I get the same crap from about 5 people everytime. It hilarious.
The difference is I can take care of myself.
I've watched the back and forth and don't see his responses as
attacks, personal or otherwise. I’ve seen him disagree, but without the frequency of sniping.
at daver's request, Let's frontload this B**ch!
I have.
You are fixated on one poster who doesn’t share your opinion on one particular player. Its silly.
He isn’t seeking you out, you find him. We get it. His tolerance of Bradley grinds your gears. Great. Cool. We are aware. Let it go.
I anxiously await the reasonable trading of Milton Bradley.
Dum spiro spero... | Follow me on twitter or else: @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Dec 17, 2009 10:56 AM CST up reply actions
He answered almost every post left here last night by me. Most were not directed at him.
Why would that be? Could it be that he does the same. But since you agree more with him, you attack me?
Keep protecting him
There is a difference...
… between responding to stuff (that is what this whole comment section is for) and jumping on somebodies case every time they post over something unrelated.
You responded to Drew’s comment about Podsednik by mocking him on his Bradley position. That had nothing to do with what he was saying, and nothing to do with the thread you were responding to.
Totally different. And you know it.
I anxiously await the reasonable trading of Milton Bradley.
Dum spiro spero... | Follow me on twitter or else: @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Dec 17, 2009 11:30 AM CST up reply actions
I've watched the back and forth as well and it kinda reminds me of...
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
It's just like that now.
It started differently, but has spiraled.
at daver's request, Let's frontload this B**ch!
I was going to go with roadrunner/coyote...
…but I didn’t want to let on how old I was. ;-)
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Dec 17, 2009 11:06 AM CST up reply actions
Oh yes...
… i went there.
I anxiously await the reasonable trading of Milton Bradley.
Dum spiro spero... | Follow me on twitter or else: @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Dec 17, 2009 11:08 AM CST up reply actions
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Dec 17, 2009 11:15 AM CST up reply actions
but neither of those
are tall beautiful readheads.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Dec 17, 2009 12:00 PM CST up reply actions
I was just thinking...
This post needed that photo!
"Juuuuuuussst a bit outside. He tried for the corner and missed..."
- Harry Doyle
by Rusty in Peoria on Dec 17, 2009 1:22 PM CST up reply actions
I figured it was a 50/50 chance..
… somebody would respond to Bobby and Whitney with Chris Brown and Rihanna.
Who the hell are those two?
I anxiously await the reasonable trading of Milton Bradley.
Dum spiro spero... | Follow me on twitter or else: @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Dec 17, 2009 11:19 AM CST up reply actions
Dennis and Mrs. Kucinich
"Dad gum right this games gonna be played under protest. . . I guarantee this is gonna be one protest that's upheld." --Hawk Harrelson, 6/24/07
DUH.
I think the hotness of the redhead threw me off, and i figured they had to be in entertainment. Wowza.
I anxiously await the reasonable trading of Milton Bradley.
Dum spiro spero... | Follow me on twitter or else: @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Dec 17, 2009 11:55 AM CST up reply actions
and people say
they don’t want to vote for heam because he’s not smart. Smart enough to get her!
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Dec 17, 2009 12:00 PM CST up reply actions
Having a beautiful wife has nothing to do with brains Drew...
you and I are married to gorgeous women, and we’re both morons.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Dec 17, 2009 12:02 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
yes, but we’re both good looking guys, you and me.
Kucinich, on the other hand, all he has going for him is the brains.
And the cookies. Professional courtesy from Keebler, natch. :P
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Dec 17, 2009 12:29 PM CST up reply actions
He has that woman because he's rich. The End.
Women don’t really go that ga-ga over brains.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Dec 17, 2009 12:30 PM CST up reply actions
define "rich", I guess
In 2005 Kucinich had assets between $196,000 and $352,000.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/05/17/candidates.wealth/index.html
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Dec 17, 2009 12:37 PM CST up reply actions
He's a member of Congress...
they make the bulk of their money AFTER they leave office. And there’s the whole power thing in play as well.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Dec 17, 2009 12:53 PM CST up reply actions
power, perhaps.
I don’t think Kucinich will ever leave office, and if he does, he’ll lobby for granola causes that don’t really pay well…
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Dec 17, 2009 1:31 PM CST up reply actions
This.
Exactly what i was talking about. Pointless, frivolous, annoying bashing of Drew simply because he doesn’t agree with your position on Bradley.
What reward do you get from this? What do you expect to gain or accomplish?
I anxiously await the reasonable trading of Milton Bradley.
Dum spiro spero... | Follow me on twitter or else: @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Dec 17, 2009 11:59 AM CST up reply actions
What is wrong with you?
Nothing to do with Bradley…
I asked a joking question
Nothing to do with you
Keep it up dude.
It looks SOOOOO cool.
I anxiously await the reasonable trading of Milton Bradley.
Dum spiro spero... | Follow me on twitter or else: @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Dec 17, 2009 12:05 PM CST up reply actions
Keep it up? Or else what?
You and Drew sure don’t like other peoples opinion on Bradley either.
So as I said before enjoy the circus in the spring I am sure it will be worth it to still have the fool on the team.
Outrage...you're doing it wrong.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Dec 17, 2009 12:10 PM CST up reply actions
I swear you don't even read what i type.
I would like to see Bradley traded. I would like to see Bradley traded. I would like to see Bradley traded. I would like to see Bradley traded. I would like to see Bradley traded. I would like to see Bradley traded.
In a reasonable manner.
I anxiously await the reasonable trading of Milton Bradley.
Dum spiro spero... | Follow me on twitter or else: @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Dec 17, 2009 12:11 PM CST up reply actions
The thing that i don't get...
… is why you are so pissy with me, when I’M ON YOUR SIDE.
I want Bradley traded, just like you. I’m just more patient. What about that is so offensive to you?
I anxiously await the reasonable trading of Milton Bradley.
Dum spiro spero... | Follow me on twitter or else: @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Dec 17, 2009 1:02 PM CST up reply actions
actually, I was going to ask the same question...
…except I would have left “the chick or the weird little liberal” part out of it.
Oh, and she’s not that hot.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
That's 'cause she's
not that in to you. Or do I have that reversed?
at daver's request, Let's frontload this B**ch!
oh, snap.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Dec 17, 2009 12:29 PM CST up reply actions
Have you seen this ?
http://www.jamesfuqua.com/lawyers/jokes/coyote-acme.shtml
Pretty good
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Dec 17, 2009 11:44 AM CST up reply actions
some comemnts
a) As of now, I don’t see the Cubs as a playoff caliber team either. But if you asked me, I don’t really see any team in the NL Central, as of now, as a playoff caliber team. By default, I’d give it to the Cardinals bu
b) the cardinals have to resign holliday first. there’s a cahnce Allen Craig’s bat plays well … there’s a chance he’s Micah Hoffpauir. David Freese likely has third, and he’s a bit average. A rotation of Carpenter/Wainwright/Lohse/Penny/Garcia is probably better than ours … but far superior? Lohse/Penny are probably end of the rotation arms. Their pen’s a question mark as well, as of now.
c) the brewers – I really fail to see how that lineup is far superior to ours. There’s Fielder, there’s Braun, and then … ? Corey Hart’s taken a nosedive, I’ want to see Rickie Weeks repeat his start last year before I think he’s truly changed. The rest is Casey McGehee, Carlos Gomez, George Kottaras, and Alcides Escobar. Certainly not an imposing group. I don’t really buy that McGehee has somehow become the next coming. We’ll have to see what else they do with the rotation, but a Gallardo, Wolf, Suppan, Bush, Parra … well, that’s not rotation that really strikes fear in me, even though I still think Parra could turn it around.
d) Again, this isn’t to say that the Cubs are in any better shape, but I think there’s a tendency this offseason to give other teams way too much credit as of right now. They both may end up being better, and heck, it wouldn’t surprise me if the Reds or Astros did well, but right now, I just think we’re giving too much credit to the other clubs.
e) MArk DeRosa? Really? I liked him as much as the next guy, and I wasn’t too pleased with the trade (no matter how it turned it out), but really? Nice guy, but I’m more than fine with Jeff Baker, who’s similar, and younger. Oh … he’s also a lot cheaper, and there’s no way I give DeRosa, much as I liked him on the Cubs, what he is currently asking for (something like 9 mil per year).
f) Podsednik doesn’t really upgrade the defense. Pods offensively … well, you need him to have an extremely lucky year to be valuable.
g) Am I ecstatic about theoffseason so far? Of course not. So far, though, Hendry’s made 2 decent moves (the Fox/Miles trade to the A’s and dumping Heilman for anything that could be remotely useful) and he hasn’t been able to move Milton. The reality was, there wasn’t going to be any quick fixes this offseason. The only guy that would’ve remotely constituted a dynamic shift in the offense would’ve been Chone Figgins, and we didn’t have the money, nor did we have the position he wanted (3rd). Most people didn’t want that anyways.
by toonsterwu on Dec 16, 2009 5:28 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Well, one thing is obvious ...
“TheGrinch13” is an appropriate name and number for you.
See you in 2011.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Dec 16, 2009 5:49 PM CST up reply actions
because the GM and the manager
they MAKE the players play the way they do. The players themselves, they got nothing to do with it – unless they’re Milton Bradley.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Dec 16, 2009 10:41 PM CST up reply actions
The manager puts them in the game and the GM gets the players. A better job could be done on both counts.
Milton Bradley is an ass, you picked a great one to back!
you bet
Captain Ahab.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Dec 17, 2009 9:41 AM CST up reply actions
Not sure about either assertion, TJ
But it appears you’re going to take the year off, too. Have fun.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Dec 17, 2009 1:35 AM CST up reply actions
Not taking a year off. Just being realistic.
Unless they have a great year, both are gone in my opinion.
Oh, I agree with that
but it seems you’re saying a “great year” is impossible.
Season doesn’t begin for 3.5 months.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Dec 17, 2009 12:22 PM CST up reply actions
Who here thought the offense would generate what it did in 2008 in December of 2007?
I sure as hell didn’t.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Dec 17, 2009 12:23 PM CST up reply actions
I agree with almost everything Grinch says
Except for Podsednik. Don’t want him at all. We can do better than that.
As soon as I read this I knew who would be ripping it apart on this site. So predictable.
So I ask all of you people out there, what place do you think the Cubs would finish in if the season started tomorrow. Using the roster as it is right now. That is what the Grinch is doing.
I would love to hear which one of you predicts a first place finish.
I half wonder if you are directing that at me
but anyhow, I’m not ripping thegrinch.
But to answer your question, right now, as of this moment in time … with the rosters the way they are right now … ( I mean, that’s what you are asking right now, right?)
I would pick … it’ll be a mild surprise … the Houston Astros. They need one starter to emerge (and Oswalt to be himself), and in Paulino/Norris, there’s two intriguing options. The pen has some options, and the offense should be okay-solid. There’s some decent chips if they decide to get aggressive and make one big move.
Do I really think the Astros will contend? Not really, but as of right now, I like their roster the best, despite some idiotic overpaying by Ed Wade.
Someone has to win the division, but all the teams have holes right now. There’s only a handful of teams right now that I think are definite payoff caliber squads … Phillies, Dodgers (even with the turmoil) are the only two squads that I feel comfortable about “betting” on at this moment in time in the NL. In the AL, Yankees, Red Sox are the only two I feel comfortable betting on … and the Rays are still lurking.
I’ll take it a step further – using the Rosters as is right now, I’d guess (I certainly wouldn’t bet on it) the NL Central as (I think 1-6 are all very close right now)
6. Pirates – They’ll be improved, but they are still rebuilding. NH is waiting on the youngsters in the lower levels (excellent draft), so unless they surprise, they’ll likely deal at midseason again.
5. Reds – I want to like this squad. I really do. I can’t help but wonder if they’ve peaked. The system has some assets that could help, but their impact likely won’t be until 2011, and there aren’t many high level impact guys. They are rumored to be listening on Harang, who was still their best arm. They need some of the young SP’s to step up. They need more consistency offensively. Can they make the big splash at midseason? There are certainly the pieces to make one big deal if they decided to.
4. Brewers – I’m not hating on them. The question is the rosters as of right now, and as of right now, I see an good but inconsistent offense, an iffy pen, and an iffy rotation. Even if you project some youngsters taking big steps forward … I still can’t see it. The system has talent in the lower levels, but is a bit thin up higher, outside of Gamel.
3. Cubs – As of right now, they need to stay afloat until Lilly gets back. With Lilly back, a rotation of Dempster/Z/Lilly/Wells/and one can compete in this division and a case can still be made, as of now, for it to be one of the top rotations in the division (with Houston/St. Louis). They also need Soriano to have a bounce back year. It’s a big year for Soto – any struggles, and his value plummets hard. Oh, they need Fukudome consistent all year if he is going to be at the top of the lineup.
2. Cardinals – Carp/Wainwright – great. Rest of rotation? Eh. Can Duncan work on them? Perhaps. Pen is iffy. I’m actually not real sure why I have them 2nd based on rosters as of now. The lineup is a bit iffy. Sure, there’s the Pujols factor, but they need a consistent Ludwick to really help it.
1. Astros- You asked me right now. Right now, I can envision Norris or Paulino getting better, giving them a solid enough 3rd option. right now, there are decent pen options, even if the roles aren’t settled. Right now, the offense should be decent-solid.
Do I actually expect it to fall this way? No … but you asked right now.
by toonsterwu on Dec 16, 2009 9:49 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
It actually was not aimed at you....
I think your post is well thought out. I always see the Astros as a threat. No matter how far they fall back they always seem to have a late run in them
I mean, honestly, at the end of the offseason
I’ll be surprised if I feel the same way about the Astros. Thin system, thin upper levels, minimal top chips. Lineup could be inconsistent. That said, they stand out more right now as they have made early moves, whereas the Cubs/Cards are still largely waiting.
On a side note, I’ll be glad if the Astros can eke out a .500ish season. That’ll likely keep McLane from doing much needed rebuilding.
And I knew who would be lauding it to the skies
So predictable.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Dec 17, 2009 1:35 AM CST up reply actions
Not time yet...
This maybe the year that this current crop of players comes to the end of the road, but you cannot it assume it will happen and tank the season. That would be foolish.
If this Cubs team does not pan out, then when you get to the trading deadline you start talking about deals. Not in December when the first fungo isn’t due for another three months.
I think I speak for everyone here when I say, "Wait, what the hell are you talking about?"
IMHO this is more of a waiting game then rebuilding
Hendry/Ricketts/Cubs need to wait out a few contracts before they can make moves, might be one year, might be three years before we are able to see what the plan of our new owner is.
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
I just miss baseball
The Cubs are not in a position to rebuild. They won’t be world beaters, but they won’t be horrible…I just want to see them on the field again!
If they stay somewhat healthy, they can compete.
Scott Bora$ is satan.
by Canadian Cubs Fan on Dec 16, 2009 5:55 PM CST reply actions
Im as critical as anyone on here
But come on, we have to go for it now. As well all know our farm system has let us down the past 70 or 80 years, so we cant exactly rely on them, now can we?
Lee can still produce, so can Ramirez, if Soriano can at least be a 25 HR 85RBI guy we should still have a chance in this 2 year window.
I dont disagree that we have a lot of poor managing to undo over the next decade, but we have a legitimate 2 year window, so we should take a shot at it
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
CF should not be a prioritized anymore
Others have expressed what I’m about to type. Personally, I don’t think CF should be prioritized anymore. It should be a priority … but I’m not sure it should be prioritized. What do I mean by this?
a) We don’t have the money to really sign a surefire guy that can add depth to the back of the lineup
b) Of the remaining OF options, it’s debatable if there are any significant upgrades to the top of the lineup when compared to Kosuke/Theriot (which is sort of a scary thought … but who’s a significant upgrade)
The top remaining option seems to be Marlon Byrd. While I think he could be solid offensively, I’m not too keen on the idea of giving him a multi-year deal. The main reason is that, a 3 year deal is likely to be backloaded to allow for the Cubs to make other moves this year. Hendry has claimed that Milton isn’t stopping him from making moves, and I’ll take him at his word, as the Cubs should have anywhere from 5-10 mil free pre-Milton deal (probably closer to 5). The general idea of giving Marlon a 3 year deal is sketchy anyways, considering his age. Besides Marlon, no one else really stands out from the pack.
Is there a remaining option that really stands out, FA or trade? No one really does. The team still has some other holes to fill. Right now, a pen arm and another starter are the main ones outside of CF (I think we can probably acknowledge that Baker/Fontenot will likely be the 2nd base options unless someone comes cheap). We’re entering the phase of the offseason where the 2nd tier arms are going to be picked up soon. Guys like Jason Marquis and Joel Pineiro.
What I would like see happen is for the Cubs to start filling those holes. Tell the CF options what you’ll be willinig to go, and if they want to wait, so be it. See if you can find a cheap pen arm for 1-2 million (I don’t think Kiko Calero has been signed … that’s the only name I can come up with that might go in that range) keeping in mind that a pen arm signing increases your starting depth (what do I mean? A Calero signing could mean someone like Esmailin Caridad is in AAA stretching out his arm at the start of the year). See if you can find a cheap starter. I know we were supposedly out watching Kelvim Escobar, although I’m not sure how low his salary would be (and Escobar could be viewed as a pen option).
Honestly, if that means passing on Byrd at 3 years and settling for whoever’s left, say Reed Johnson, I don’t really mind. The options just aren’t that appealing. We still need a CF, so it should be a priority, but I really don’t think that CF should be prioritized anymore. If that means Coco Crisp or Scott Podsednik for 1 year at 2-3 mil … okay. (Before folks say there’s no chance Crisp goes that low … there’s always a good chance someone is left standing (the Abreu situation) or that someone would value a starting chance a bit more than being a backup elsewhere).
If a good trade situation emerges, then you change course, but while CF should be a priority, it shouldn’t be prioritized right now.
by toonsterwu on Dec 16, 2009 9:29 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
I don't disagree
but there’s a decent chance he’ll get some sort of 3 year deal … maybe 2 and an option.
I wonder who besides Hendry would give him any kind of 3 year deal.
Scary-He’s a 4th outfielder!!!!!!
I think he's a bit more than a 4th OF
As for who else, I’m not real sure right now what the market is on Byrd. I know Morosi suggested the market for Byrd was similar to Cameron. He makes a tiny bit of sense to Seattle, makes some sense for the Mets, could make some sense for the Braves. There’s some other teams. Mets could land Bay, though.
You kind of make my point. Not much going on with him outside of a one year deal.
Its hard to come up with teams for him
Actually
my point was that there is likely to be a healthy number of teams that have some level of interest in him.
I agree completely.
The FA options this year aren’t worth getting worked up about so you should follow the patient strategy you suggest. CHONE basically suggested there’s no difference between Byrd-Cameron-Crisp, so if we end up with Crisp, then fine.
The “problem” is that if you actually employ this strategy, they’ll be a new post on BCB every day claiming the off-season is a failure for two months.
"We’re going to come back here next year healthy and do what we’re supposed to do, and we’re going to be all right. That’s not Hendry’s fault. He thought it was the right move. It didn’t work out. But at the same time, he’s the same guy that put back-to-back championship teams together." - Aramis Ramirez
The "problem" is that if you actually employ this strategy, they’ll be a new post on BCB every day claiming the off-season is a failure for two months.
Like that’s not going to happen anyway?
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Dec 16, 2009 10:49 PM CST up reply actions
You're panicking
Everyone does this. Just take a deep breath.
by Snake Plisskin on Dec 16, 2009 11:17 PM CST reply actions
Rebuilding now is kinda akin to punting on 3rd down
At least give the 2010 team until the All-Star break. If it looks like we have a shot, then go for it or stand pat. If the Cubs are miserably out of it by then, or showing signs of it, then punt.
Look how miserable the Cubs were last year and they still managed to win 83 games. Yes a slide could happen, but how can anyone say for sure now that it will happen? There are still some 260 FA out there, some I have to be sleepers. This is the make-or-break year of the Hendry tenure, I say let it roll. I’m confident the Cubs could sign a player or two to one year contracts, seems like this has to eventually be a great market for that. Keep one eye on the road and one on the road ahead and play it down the middle for now.
If all we needed last year was another bat and arm, then add an arm (Harden) and that’s how far we are away now. Any bounce back by Soriano, Soto, Ramirez, (dare I say Bradley) could be the bat we need so maybe all we need is a few good pitchers.
Think Sheets would sign a 1yr/15 million dollar deal to see if he can bounce back and get Lackey money next year?
"I'd rather hit home runs you don't have to run as hard." -- Dave Kingman
by BucknerKongCardenal on Dec 16, 2009 11:19 PM CST reply actions
Sheets
My guess is that no, he wouldn’t take 1 year, 15 mil. He’d probably want better security than that, but that’s just a guess. The Cubs don’t have that type of money available, though.
Yeah - he'd take it in a minute!
Because he didn’t pitch at all in 2009!
No one will be offering him anything close to $15MM. Why? He has never won more than 13 games in a season and will continue to be an injury risk.
by RiskyBusiness on Dec 17, 2009 11:34 AM CST up reply actions
Wins? You're evaluating his value based on wins?
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Dec 17, 2009 11:59 AM CST up reply actions
No - the injuries are more important
But winning does count. What do you want to say – 13 wins is good because he had a 3.09 ERA?
by RiskyBusiness on Dec 17, 2009 12:13 PM CST up reply actions
Wins are just about the most meaningless stat you could pick to judge a pitcher by.
It an arbitrary, team dependent stat that tells you very little at all about a pitchers performance. I would take a starting pitcher with a 3.09 ERA every day of the week and twice on sunday, even if he had gone 0-24 the previous year. The injuries are more important though.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Dec 17, 2009 12:17 PM CST up reply actions
That's great
But you’re not going to find a unicorn of a pitcher with a 3.09 ERA and an 0-24 record.
Back to the steak – would you sign Sheets for $15MM for 1 year right now?
Or do you just want to harp about wins and avoid the real question?
by RiskyBusiness on Dec 17, 2009 1:20 PM CST up reply actions
I doubt anyone would be willing to give him $15 million. I wouldn't. Happy?
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Dec 17, 2009 1:25 PM CST up reply actions
Here's a guy that came darn close.
"Dad gum right this games gonna be played under protest. . . I guarantee this is gonna be one protest that's upheld." --Hawk Harrelson, 6/24/07
Weird...in that 2-14 1992 season he was moved to the bullpen as a setup/closer in July.
And in 7 of his losses as a starter his team score 2 or less runs. He looked to be a decent starting pitcher, and an awful closer.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Dec 17, 2009 3:01 PM CST up reply actions
I guess the point is not not get caught up on Sheets and the $
But rather find a SP we can sign for one year. Someone with some upside that could be a difference maker. Duchescher perhaps? Pedro Martinez? All would be gambles, of course, but if they bust it just gives the Cubs more reason to begin on rebuilding.
Blanton and Arroyo could possibly be had in trades, and they are FAs in 2011.
"I'd rather hit home runs you don't have to run as hard." -- Dave Kingman
by BucknerKongCardenal on Dec 17, 2009 6:41 PM CST up reply actions
Bronson is only good for his commercials.
Champion Ford, would you believe a double?
One baseball game, he came to the plate and heard a woman in the crowd shout to the pitcher, "I'll make you a chocolate cake if you strike out that 'so-and-so'!" Says Strong: "I hit that ball out of the park. Then I looked at her like, 'Do I get a cake now?' "
Of those names...
I’d also take a giant pass on Arroyo. His only real upside is that he eats up a lot of innings for you and has done that consistently for the past 5 years. Blanton’s been pretty good in that regard as well, and he’s somewhat younger than Arroyo.
Duchscherer could be an interesting idea, and could be cheaper than Sheets, but would Oakland really let him get away?
All very interesting hypotheticals.
"Juuuuuuussst a bit outside. He tried for the corner and missed..."
- Harry Doyle
by Rusty in Peoria on Dec 18, 2009 8:58 AM CST up reply actions
Duchscherer rejected arbitration and is a free agent.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I did not know that.
Even with that being the case, I would think that Billy Beane would be more than interested in trying to get Duchscherer back. Unless maybe Duchscherer is looking for some crazy amount of money based on his 2008 season, which would seem like an unwise move.
"Juuuuuuussst a bit outside. He tried for the corner and missed..."
- Harry Doyle
by Rusty in Peoria on Dec 18, 2009 9:07 AM CST up reply actions
Wow...
Hard to believe that in 1993 his run support in the games that he started was a whopping 2.1. You have to work pretty darn hard to score that few runs for your pitcher on a regular basis.
"Juuuuuuussst a bit outside. He tried for the corner and missed..."
- Harry Doyle
by Rusty in Peoria on Dec 18, 2009 8:48 AM CST up reply actions
Last I read
He was asking for a multi-year deal at around 12 mil per year.
The AAV will probably come down a bit
but I think he’ll still target some sort of multi-year deal even if it’s only options. If Sheets struggles or is bad this year, his stock will plummet hard.
I could stomach a 1 year deal with a club option year attached to it...or the 2nd year kicking in when a # of innings pitched is met.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Dec 17, 2009 1:26 PM CST up reply actions
what's the typical return time for this injury?
torn flexor tendon in his elbow? Not as bad a ligament replacement, but it’s still an elbow injury.
And Sheets has been on the DL 6 times before the surgery.
by RiskyBusiness on Dec 17, 2009 1:33 PM CST up reply actions
I certainly like Sheets.
But I don’t like a multi-year contract with him, and I don’t like $12 million per year. I’m not expecting to see him in a Cub uniform, though.
"Juuuuuuussst a bit outside. He tried for the corner and missed..."
- Harry Doyle
by Rusty in Peoria on Dec 17, 2009 1:51 PM CST up reply actions
Leave it to a Peorian
to have common sense. :)
After all the Cubs went through with Wood and Prior, why would they want the chance of a redux with Sheets? No, thanks, particularly not for that kind of cash.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Dec 17, 2009 3:16 PM CST up reply actions
I'm not Peorian by birth, though. :)
North-sider born and raised (Pulaski and Lawrence) and have bounced around the midwest for the better part of 30 years (including an 8-year “term” in Wisconsin) before finally landing here.
I have a little more faith in Sheets than I had in Prior, though. And after all, if the Cubs took a flyer on Harden. something like this wouldn’t completely be out of the realm of possibility for the Cubs. But it still seems like more money than would be worth risking.
"Juuuuuuussst a bit outside. He tried for the corner and missed..."
- Harry Doyle
by Rusty in Peoria on Dec 18, 2009 9:01 AM CST up reply actions
Not Bruce is correct
I would hope not to return to the Wood-Prior days. We pretty much lucked out on Harden.
All pitchers have a chance on injury. But it would be nice to not have it hanging over our heads for a change.
Also, Sheets didn’t pitch last year and is coming of an injury. How would he get close to that amount??
The Red Sea has parted!
TJ and I agree on something! :-)
And I also agree with you on Harden. Really liked him, but the more I saw of him, and the more I saw his 100-pitch counts in the fourth and fifth innings, the less enamored I became. I’m crying about his potential being gone, but not about him being gone, if you know what I’m getting at.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Dec 17, 2009 3:48 PM CST up reply actions
I'm right there with you both.
Harden was good, but crazy inefficient. The price the bullpen paid wasn’t worth it. Combined with Lou’s odd decisions and ideas on who can pitch when and how long, and it was time for Harden to move on.
I anxiously await the reasonable trading of Milton Bradley.
Dum spiro spero... | Follow me on twitter or else: @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Dec 17, 2009 3:54 PM CST up reply actions
A quieter,
less consistant (unreal to say this), less healthy version of Z.
at daver's request, Let's frontload this B**ch!
I never thought about it that way,
but that’s a really good point.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Dec 17, 2009 4:15 PM CST up reply actions
it is amazing
how some people already give up on the 2010 season before it even starts., but thats a cub fan for you.
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Cubs By The Numbers
Cubs By The Numbers is a history of the ballclub by uniform number, but the biographies help trace the history of our beloved team in a new way. For everyone who's a Cubs fan, anyone who ever wore the uniform is like family. Cubs By The Numbers reintroduces readers to some of their long-lost ancestors, even ones they think they already know.
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Recent Stories in Ticket Exchanges
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Big League Stew - MLB - Yahoo! Sports
- Marlins agree to unretire No. 5 for Logan Morrison, who will honor his father’s favorite player
- Weatherman Derek Holland does Dallas TV
- Ask Alex: Will Julio Teheran or Matt Moore win rookie of the year?
- Ku Klux Klan, umpires and bowling: Why the minor leagues tossed out Jim Evans academy
- The Cardinals Hall of Fame can now be found at Bill Clinton’s library in Arkansas (Huh?)
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