Wait on CF....Cubs need a SS more
by plenz on Dec 21, 2009 10:47 AM CST
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PrintConsidering the CF options out there I think the Cubs should address SS before anything else. Is there really much of a difference between Ankiel, Byrd, or Podsednik? Why not wait and grab the one out of that bunch who falls to the wayside and becomes the cheapest and shortest term option?
Signing Orlando Cabrera or trading for a SS would solve 2 problems IMO. One being the need for a real SS and also allows Theriot to move to 2B, filling that hole as well. I'm not at all comfortable going into 2010 with the Riot at SS and Fontenot/Baker at 2B.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
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Cabrera?
Whose numbers have declined three straight years and who has a reputation as a bad clubhouse guy?
No thanks. I’ll take my chances on the existing middle infield.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
bad clubhouse guy?
I never heard that. Source, Al?
Cabrera once called the press box bitching about an error call...
… and I have heard from sources that his White Sox tenure was less than happy.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Who's the source?
I would sleep with Blou if it meant the Cubs would win a WS. by Doggie Stalker on Aug 22, 2009 4:11 PM EDT
by cubsluver22 on Dec 21, 2009 11:53 AM CST up reply actions
The Trib and Sun Times all had articles
that he was less than pleasant during his time here and as he departed.
I also believe there was a huge SI article a couple of years ago about a fued he had with another MLB player from his country.
at daver's request, Let's frontload this B**ch!
i linked and quoted it below
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
I believe
you are referring to the feud between O-Dog and Edgar Renteria. SI did a huge story on it a while back.No idea what its about and I guess they still haven’t resolved anything.
i remember hearing about that before too
and a quick google brings this one up
White Sox manager Ozzie Guillen says he’s not planning on calling shortstop Orlando Cabrera into his office, even though Cabrera apparently has been making plenty of calls on his own.
In an act that might befit a petulant child more than a major league baseball player, Cabrera has been picking up the phone and complaining to official scorers about errors charged to him.
The Chicago Sun-Times reported in Sunday’s editions that during Thursday’s 3-1 victory against the Cleveland Indians, Cabrera had called the U.S. Cellular Field press box twice to protest an error that was charged to him in the sixth inning.
The Chicago media reported that Cabrera had done this before, calling the press box on May 3 to complain to the scoring official in Toronto, also about an error.
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
fair enough
I don’t see it happening, anyway.
I can vouch for the press box incident...
A good friend of mine was the official scorer for that game. He said that Cabrera complaining about calls not exactly an isolated incident.
I think I speak for everyone here when I say, "Wait, what the hell are you talking about?"
Unbelievable
How a Major League Ballplayer can be that self centered right in the middle of a Ballgame, Someone has to teach this guy some Manners.
Cabrera????
Always appeared to me as a good Ballplayer and I could never realize why he moved around so much. Now I know.
He was considered a clubhouse leader in Anaheim
Although I don’t doubt he was a problem on the South Side. He seemed pretty upset to get traded there and he didn’t seem to respect Ozzie very much, which lead to more problems. I remember when he was on the White Sox giving an interview about how much he respected and enjoyed playing for Scioscia, which seemed like a not-so-veiled shot at Ozzie.
He seemed to be a positive influence in Minnesota
I don’t think we should sign him because he’s not very good, but it seems that Cabrera is a real positive clubhouse figure if he’s happy to be there and a downer when he’s not. If he signed with us, I’d have to assume he’d want to be there.
by Josh Timmers on Dec 21, 2009 3:53 PM CST up reply actions
Bradley wanted to be here originally too.
No thank you.
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Dec 23, 2009 12:59 PM CST up reply actions
Why don't we send Z to the Yanks for Jeter?
That’d be awesome!
Or maybe send Theriot, Berg, Patton and Silva to Boston for Ellsbury.
tell me you're joking
Derek Jeter will never be anything but a Yankee.
Ouch.
When people ask if you’re joking, you know you fell flat on your ass.
Yes. I was joking. I believe Z still has the best years of his career ahead of him. Sorry for the lame joke.
i hear
that the red sox have interest.
It's not about money. It's about winning and getting over the hump. We've had the appetizer now, but we left the main course on the table.
-rod beck
by laidbackliam on Dec 22, 2009 6:53 PM CST up reply actions
I'd prefer sending Carlos Silva
to the Cardinals for King Albert.
He’ll then play SS AND CF at the same time!! :D
A LO PROFUNDOOO...NOO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NOO...DIGANLE QUE NO A ESA PELOTA!! GANAN LOS CACHORROS DE CHICAGO!!
by Azul Cachorro on Dec 21, 2009 4:45 PM CST up reply actions
How do you suggest we get O-Cab?
And like Al said, why go after a declining SS when we have one now that should produce for the next few years
"The more i practice, the luckier i seem to get" -Yogi Berra
Cabrera
his numbers went up in 2009 from 08 I believe. I think he’s a much better SS than Theriot. Theriot needs to be at 2b. And……if not Cabrera, are there any SS’s out there that can be had in a trade?
Part of the reason in my thinking is that I will puke if Hendry is dumb enough to give a guy like Byrd more than 1 year
Why would you puke? What is so terrible about Byrd?
Please give me some evidence or some reason why Byrd is so terrible and a multi year deal would make you vomit?
Byrd has started at CF for the last three seasons and put up respectable numbers. Is he Curtis Granderson or Grady Sizemore or even Jacoby Ellsbury? No not by a long shot. But he is certainly a solid option and really the best option.
There is really not a huge market for CF, and we are paying big money for Soriano and Fukudome in the OF, so if we can land Byrd on a 2yr deal for a fair amount … again why would that make you puke?
The Colts are going 16-0. It is going to happen.
i too dont get the negative feeling from some about Byrd
we are not looking for a MVP right now in CF, but someone who can provide so/so offense and play well in the field, which seem to fit what Byrd is. I also have seen stats given showing Byrd not to be as horrible as some are making him out to be.
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Maybe you should post some comparable numbers up
from this year and last. And assuming the Cubs start a rebuilding process within the next few years, pursuing O-Cab seems senseless when we have a much cheaper in house option. Not saying Theriot is the better player, but he fits our needs right now.
"The more i practice, the luckier i seem to get" -Yogi Berra
I'm not saying
Cabrera’s the only answer. I just think Theriot fits much better at 2B and I have zero faith in a 2B platoon of Fontenot and Baker. Fontenot was nothing short of horrible last year and Jeff Baker did well in a very small sample size.
Give it up already
While Theriot would be better at 2B he’s done well enough for the last three seasons. Considering we don’t know what productivity we’ll get from Soriano and Fukudome, adding another solid OF’er is a priority.
ok..........
but……………are you saying that Ankiel, Byrd, or Pods are “solid”
No I'm not
But I think they need more depth in the outfield than the infield right now.
Yes, I am ... Ankiel or Pods no ... Byrd yes
But let’s say we don’t sign any of those players … and we look at the SS position instead of CF …. who starts at centerfield for us? Sam Fuld? Corey Patterson? Sean Marshall?
I think CF is the main priority here, because if we don’t land a CF somehow, who is the everyday guy? We have an everyday SS and a nice platoon at 2B … why address the position when there really isn’t a major need?
Would it be nice to maybe upgrade at SS and have some flexibility with Theriot/Baker/Fontenot … sure, but I hardly call Cabrera that much of an upgrade.
The Colts are going 16-0. It is going to happen.
Theriot Turning Double Play?
Jose Oquendo said the toughest part of converting from a shortstop to a second baseman was the ability to turn the double play with your back to the oncoming baserunner coming into second base. I wonder how well Theriot would be able to turn the double play, if he moved to second. I agree Theriot has done well enough at shortstop. Yes, he has some definite defensive deficiencies, but I don’t believe he’s as bad a shortstop as some make him out to be.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
OC
2007 .301BA .345 obp .742 ops
2008 .281 .334 .705
2009 .284 .316 .705
not declining too badly…….and he’s a FA. Why not if he takes a 1 year deal?
There is very little chance he takes a 1 year deal
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Dec 21, 2009 4:39 PM CST up reply actions
he is MB Lite when it comes to attitude
no thanks
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
and he had problems with the Chi Sox
so will the pressues of being a Cub and being reminded of his history in Chicago make him relaxed loss or more? I would say less relaxed and it would not work out well. He is not a good fit IMO
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Well there is your problem..
Chances are he wont take a one year deal
"The more i practice, the luckier i seem to get" -Yogi Berra
Starlin Castro
I know he’s not ready yet, but surprised that no one else said this. I don’t know why they’d block him.
I'm singing, "GO CUBS GO! GO CUBS GO!" -- DrCrawdad on Jun 12, 2009 7:23 AM CDT
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! -- Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Dec 21, 2009 11:13 AM CST reply actions
Blocking is
what the Cubs do best. That’s why they still found the football goal posts buried at Wrigley Field.
by RiskyBusiness on Dec 21, 2009 12:00 PM CST up reply actions
I hope you are joking
The Cubs haven’t had any worthwhile prospects in years to worry about blocking.
Well
No one is suggesting we fill our SS gap long term. Castro hasn’t even reached AA ball yet.
"The more i practice, the luckier i seem to get" -Yogi Berra
Actually, he has
He may start there again this year, but he moved up from Daytona mid-year.
And then he played in the AFL.
Fontenot (fon-te-no): Cajun for "scrappy"
Theriot
I dunno why everyone wants to move Theriot to second. I’d prefer he be moved to the utility infielder position. He isn’t a very good hitter and isn’t much of a fielder either. Then you add in all his TOOTBLANs, bleh. Heck, I wouldn’t mind seeing him moved in a trade. Maybe some GM will think he is better than he really is. Sell high, buy low.
So, Theriot on the bench?
And a double play combo of Blanco and Mike Fontenot? No thanks.
Get a new shortstop
The idea would be to get a new shortstop to hold the position for Castro and play Baker at second.
But from where? The free agents
are either old, expensive, or both. Few available to acquire by trade are any better than Theriot or Blanco.
at daver's request, Let's frontload this B**ch!
Theriot has been more valuable than Cabrera over the last 3 years
Total WAR – 2007-2009:
Theriot: 7.5
Cabrera: 6.7
So there’s actually a marginal loss replacing Theriot with Cabrera. I don’t have time to push the numbers right now, but I would bet money that a Baker / Fontenot straight platoon projects higher than Theriot as a second base option.
by Wreckard on Dec 21, 2009 11:18 AM CST reply actions 2 recs
Thank you.
With the money Cabrera will be looking for, I’d take a pass.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
That is the problem with all these "Why don't the Cubs sign X?" scenarios.
In this year’s market of available players, X often turns out to be worse than the guys they have.
I just don't think
that we are even close to being strong up the middle as constructef right now and that a one year guy at SS would help
there's one big reason your idea won't happen
The Cubs could very likely end up with Sam Fuld as the regular centerfielder. The team, wisely, doesn’t want him getting 400 at-bats. Also, I don’t see this happening considering Fontenot was tendered a contract.
maybe so
but the problem with your idea is the Cabrera probably does not help solve the problem, that and your sign OC for a year scenario ignorers the reality that he won’t accept a 1 year deal. Let it go.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Dec 21, 2009 4:41 PM CST up reply actions
I don't think we need an answer at SS
with Castro coming on quick and other SS prospects behind him should he falter.
I also don’t think Theriot should be ahead of our other options on a 2B depth chart. His bat only plays at SS.
"We’re going to come back here next year healthy and do what we’re supposed to do, and we’re going to be all right. That’s not Hendry’s fault. He thought it was the right move. It didn’t work out. But at the same time, he’s the same guy that put back-to-back championship teams together." - Aramis Ramirez
Well,
if his glove won’t play at SS and his bat won’t play anywhere else…
"We’re going to come back here next year healthy and do what we’re supposed to do, and we’re going to be all right. That’s not Hendry’s fault. He thought it was the right move. It didn’t work out. But at the same time, he’s the same guy that put back-to-back championship teams together." - Aramis Ramirez
Why won't his bat play 2B?
For a right-handed hitter, Theriot hits well in the 2 hole. He can hit to the right side and can take walks. I’m not looking for Chase Utley here, and apparently neither were a lot of teams since he was drafted 15th.
by RiskyBusiness on Dec 21, 2009 12:23 PM CST up reply actions
Theriot's career #s in the 2-hole are
.283/.354/.375 which is just ok, and not that ok when you count in the GiDPs and CSs.
Jeff Baker projects to hit with the same AVG, about as much OBP, and .100 pts more SLG than Theriot.
"We’re going to come back here next year healthy and do what we’re supposed to do, and we’re going to be all right. That’s not Hendry’s fault. He thought it was the right move. It didn’t work out. But at the same time, he’s the same guy that put back-to-back championship teams together." - Aramis Ramirez
Yup
If Theriot isn’t playing SS, I’d rather not have him on the club at all. And after last year, I think Baker deserves a shot (although that’s what was said about Font after 08, too…)
I think that if we let Baker and Fontenot
both keep the other from getting over-exposed, we’ll be pleased. And if not, it’s more worth the try than gambling on Felipe Lopez with more money and probably a longer time commitment.
"We’re going to come back here next year healthy and do what we’re supposed to do, and we’re going to be all right. That’s not Hendry’s fault. He thought it was the right move. It didn’t work out. But at the same time, he’s the same guy that put back-to-back championship teams together." - Aramis Ramirez
pretty hard
to project Baker based on such a small sample isn’t it?
Baker's got 300 ML games under his belt
and minor league numbers are not without predictive value.
But, yeah, there’s always a question when you expose a player to more thorough scouting.
"We’re going to come back here next year healthy and do what we’re supposed to do, and we’re going to be all right. That’s not Hendry’s fault. He thought it was the right move. It didn’t work out. But at the same time, he’s the same guy that put back-to-back championship teams together." - Aramis Ramirez
Baker does not project that well
Other than 69 games with the Cubs, Baker’s only had a OBP of .350 or higher once. And he had to hit .368 as a September call-up to do that. His K/BB ratios are terrible.
Baker is DeRosa-lite as a UT.
by RiskyBusiness on Dec 21, 2009 12:48 PM CST up reply actions
Baker v. Riot projections
B.James – Baker .280/.337.460 Riot .284/.352/.357
CHONE – Baker .252/.317/417 Riot .280/.350/.367
"We’re going to come back here next year healthy and do what we’re supposed to do, and we’re going to be all right. That’s not Hendry’s fault. He thought it was the right move. It didn’t work out. But at the same time, he’s the same guy that put back-to-back championship teams together." - Aramis Ramirez
I'll take the 20 to 30 points
more in OBP from Theriot. I can get low OBP from Soriano.
by RiskyBusiness on Dec 21, 2009 1:12 PM CST up reply actions
Depends on whether you believe CHONE or James more -
I’d take the upside in Baker.
"We’re going to come back here next year healthy and do what we’re supposed to do, and we’re going to be all right. That’s not Hendry’s fault. He thought it was the right move. It didn’t work out. But at the same time, he’s the same guy that put back-to-back championship teams together." - Aramis Ramirez
Even if Baker does not hit like Derosa
and he has a small sample size or whatever … I think it’s important to remember his versatility. He can play a servicable 2B as well as 1B, 3B, and the corner OF spots if needed.
He’s an asset to the team because of his flexibility and I’d love to let him prove he can hit like he did last year on a consistent basis.
The Colts are going 16-0. It is going to happen.
But that's not the whole story
From the Bill James handbook, Theriot projects for a Runs Created of 75, vs. RC of 50 for Baker. The projections are based on ABs of 599 for Theriot vs. 322 for Baker. Yes, a lot more ABs for Theriot, but Baker is not going to double his ABs in 2010 and suddenly get an RC of 100.
The non stat issue is where to bat Baker. Theriot is solid 2 hole hitter; Baker is more of a 6-7 hitter.
I’ll stick with the 2 hole hitter and work my way down the batting order.
by RiskyBusiness on Dec 21, 2009 5:19 PM CST up reply actions
The difference in the RC count...
… can likely be almost entirely attributed to the difference in AB, right?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Probably
But for 2010, I doubt Baker will see those increased ABs. Unless the Cubs sign a left-handed CF, they are very right-hand dominant. Pinella will play Fontenot unless he flops again. Fontenot projects to get 359 ABs with an RC of 51.
Al – I picked up the Bill James Handbook after the post on BCB. Nothing better than a book full of baseball numbers.
by RiskyBusiness on Dec 21, 2009 5:42 PM CST up reply actions
Theriot is solid 2 hole hitter;
kinda
Eric Hanna and FAN of the BULLS, the two greatest BCBers in the history of mankind
by jesus christos on Dec 21, 2009 5:24 PM CST up reply actions
Check the RC27
where Baker is 5.58 and Theriot at 4.44 – Baker creates runs at a significantly higher rate than Theriot by the rest of James’ story.
I’d say the issue is greater about where to bat Riot – whose poor baserunning and low RC27 makes him a bad fit for the top of the order and his absolute lack of power makes him a bad fit as an 8 hitter. Jeff Baker – if he is a .317 CHONE OBP guy, makes sense as the last position player hitting because he can at least drive people in.
"We’re going to come back here next year healthy and do what we’re supposed to do, and we’re going to be all right. That’s not Hendry’s fault. He thought it was the right move. It didn’t work out. But at the same time, he’s the same guy that put back-to-back championship teams together." - Aramis Ramirez
That's great
by the RC27 logic, Baker is better than Jimmy Rollins (5.06).
A better question is if not Theriot, who should bat second? I don’t see a lead-off hitter CF on the horizon, which puts Fukudome leading-off.
I love this – Yahoo depth chart shows right field as empty for the Cubs. How typical.
by RiskyBusiness on Dec 21, 2009 7:13 PM CST up reply actions
Well that's because
Bill James is projecting Jimmy Rollins to be a poor hitter in 2010 at .271/.328/.438; projections aren’t perfect and I don’t know Rollins’ recent #s well enough to know if that’s a bad projection or not.
I can’t say who I think should bat 1/2 until I see what the final options are, but I really like Fukudome as a #2 hitter.
Personally, I’d be tempted to run Soto out there as a leadoff hitter and laugh off his running game.
"We’re going to come back here next year healthy and do what we’re supposed to do, and we’re going to be all right. That’s not Hendry’s fault. He thought it was the right move. It didn’t work out. But at the same time, he’s the same guy that put back-to-back championship teams together." - Aramis Ramirez
I still think you're giving Baker too much credit
You don’t reach 29 in MLB and suddenly become a 500+ AB player.
I would prefer Fukudome at the 2 hole, but I don’t see a better lead-off hitter yet.
by RiskyBusiness on Dec 21, 2009 10:54 PM CST up reply actions
I think your argument about his age is good in general
but I have reasons in Baker’s specific history to be hopeful for him.
"We’re going to come back here next year healthy and do what we’re supposed to do, and we’re going to be all right. That’s not Hendry’s fault. He thought it was the right move. It didn’t work out. But at the same time, he’s the same guy that put back-to-back championship teams together." - Aramis Ramirez
I could be wrong too
Hope I’m wrong. Casey McGehee might be a close example. Oh wait, that’s an example of the Cubs giving up on a player who turns in a fine MLB season! Damn it!
by RiskyBusiness on Dec 22, 2009 10:04 AM CST up reply actions
Theriot
I think we’re going to see Baker/Theriot despite what people may want, so my comment here is only to Theriot. I am really hard pressed to say that the 2009 Theriot is a solid 2 hitter. The 2008 Theriot, maybe. I seriously hope RT can turn back the clock a bit, because it’s either Theriot, or whoever we get in CF, that will be batting at the top (or both, with Fukudome sliding down, but I think Kosuke will bat up top, either 1 or 2).
Saying Castro is coming on quick
is a bit optimistic. By 2011 maybe he is ready, possibly 2012, after that it matters not, the Mayan end of the world prophecy kicks in. Then again, maybe that prophecy was their way of predicting the Cubs winning the Series finally.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Dec 21, 2009 4:43 PM CST up reply actions
Saying Castro is coming on quick
is a reflection of what we’re hearing from the Cubs. I, personally, think they may be moving him a little quickly.
"We’re going to come back here next year healthy and do what we’re supposed to do, and we’re going to be all right. That’s not Hendry’s fault. He thought it was the right move. It didn’t work out. But at the same time, he’s the same guy that put back-to-back championship teams together." - Aramis Ramirez
which is their track record
hype the kid up, force him up too fast, trade him once he is chewed up and spit out
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
well, that happened with two guys
Patterson and, to a lesser extent, Pie — who I wouldn’t say was chewed up and spit out.
I wouldn’t say it happened to Rich Hill. And I can’t think of any highly touted prospects who have been called up in recent years. Soto, maybe?
i am talking over all
not isolated to recent times alone. so many names have been hyped and touted and (rushed or not) never pan out. Bobby Hill, David Kelton, Jason DuBois, etc
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
I don't remember Kelton or DuBois being hyped
but good catch on Bobby Hill. IIRC, he was supposed to be the next big thing. Turns out he was, only after he became Aramis Ramirez.
"I have the time and hatred but not the knowledge." ~Madison Cub Fan (Aug. 25, 2009)
Hill
wasn’t really a product of hype by the Cubs though. He was hyped throughout college.
i heard a lot about them both prior to making their debut's
as well as others like Cline (a catching prospect years ago IIRC) who was also touted and never happened. Unteen pitchers who were touted and that is where it ended with their ability to produce lol.
I agree about Hill. So was Brandon Harris who was a nice guy but didnt pan out sadly.
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Soto
He really was never a highly touted kid. He was sort of muddling along. I remember I compared him to a potential Henry Blanco at one point when he was in the lower levels. Then, he lost weight and his bat took off a bit.
I can’t thin of any others that were drastically rushed to the bigs. Even Pie wasn’t really rushed either. That said, there have been cases, in the recent past, where they rushed some guys and it puzzled me. The one that I am thinking of right now is Dopirak, who really never deserved to get that AA bump. That said, he might’ve failed with us anyways, and maybe what he simply needed was a change of scenery (and the failure might’ve helped).
Agreed.
What about Prior? I realize he matured in college, but he was up shouldering a full MLB workload pretty damn quick. His stuff was good enough, but would stretching him out longer in the minors have helped his durability? (Or, were his “perfect” mechanics going to crush him soon enough?)
at daver's request, Let's frontload this B**ch!
My take
I think, at some point, the mechanics were going to crush him. I remember a Rick Peterson comment in SI a few years back about Prior (he also commented on Brownlie in that article. .. I think) where he said something along the lines of how he wished Prior would clean his mechanics up. Of course, this is with the benefit of hindsight.
::pleads the 5th::
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Dec 21, 2009 11:54 AM CST reply actions
The big question is whether Miggy will take just one year.
"We’re going to come back here next year healthy and do what we’re supposed to do, and we’re going to be all right. That’s not Hendry’s fault. He thought it was the right move. It didn’t work out. But at the same time, he’s the same guy that put back-to-back championship teams together." - Aramis Ramirez
and whether he would be good enough defensively
There’s talk he’ll be moving to third. Maybe he would still be better at short than Theriot? I dunno.
Miggy's UZR
has flip-flopped the past couple years from good to bad. You’d have to check with your scouts on it. I wish I had scouts.
"We’re going to come back here next year healthy and do what we’re supposed to do, and we’re going to be all right. That’s not Hendry’s fault. He thought it was the right move. It didn’t work out. But at the same time, he’s the same guy that put back-to-back championship teams together." - Aramis Ramirez
I'm NOT saying
we don’t need a CF…………I think we can get one of the guys mentioned pretty cheap instead of rushing into a multi year deal with Marlon Byrd
But the available SS options are cheap because they aren't good.
I’d rather see them working for a 2B and a CF, and leave Theriot in place for another year.
I agree on the wait on CF part
There simply isn’t anyone out there that stands out to me, and I’d rather wait to see if demands drop. I don’t expect it, though.
That said, I’d rather prioritize a pen arm (sounds like the Cubs are doing that) and adding rotation competition (if possible). There’s some decent gambles out there and we have some spending money now.
As for shortstop, I’m not against pursuing it. Is there a shortstop that adds a top of the order bat or some pop from the lower half? If not, Theriot, while not good defensively, is solid enough that I’m not sure there’s anyone out there that I think would really justify such a move (and it would have to be someone that agreed to a one year deal basically). I don’t like Cabrera.
Yeah, Cabrera makes sense
Let’s sign him two a 2 year deal so that Castro has nowhere to play later this year (and next year). He’ll be playing SS by September when the Cubs are out of it.
I still wouldn't do it.
That would be a huge waste of money, and like some of the people above have said, we don’t need the other issues.
Why waste money in a lost year anyway?
I love it
how the 2010 season is lost when it’s NOT EVEN 2010 YET!
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Dec 21, 2009 3:21 PM CST up reply actions
Because some people...
… apparently enjoy being negative.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
And here I thought that was in sarcasm font.
"We’re going to come back here next year healthy and do what we’re supposed to do, and we’re going to be all right. That’s not Hendry’s fault. He thought it was the right move. It didn’t work out. But at the same time, he’s the same guy that put back-to-back championship teams together." - Aramis Ramirez
more like they cannot see past their nose.
it is easy to say “we are blah blah” as of today, without playing a game. no one thought we would be as bad as we were last season, and that is why the games are played. instead of saying its a wasted season, lets wait til the ofseason is finished and then see what happens in ST.
and to those who belive the 2010 season is over as of now, please stop logging in and talking about it, and wait until 2011 to return and talk about that season. no reason to waste your time on a lost season (their words not mine)
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Hard to call it realistic...
…when the games haven’t even been played yet.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
Andres Blanco
There. I said it.
I think he has tremendous defensive skills and something tells me he might turn into a hitter as well.
Numbers may not lie, but they don’t tell the whole truth (and nothing but the truth), either. -- Doug Glanville
Something tells you "he might turn into a hitter"
something is jerking your chain
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Dec 21, 2009 4:45 PM CST up reply actions
ha
dunno, got a good chuckle out of that.
Has he been on the Sammy Sosa diet?
Failing that, I think that what we have seen with Blanco is what we get.
something the Cubs could do
Let’s say Baker AND Fontenot have terrible springs or get hurt. I wouldn’t be shocked if Blanco starts the season at short and Theriot starts at second.
One thing I hate about the current thinking on the Cubs is that Lou might keep Theriot at short and put Blanco at second because, otherwise, Theriot might struggle at the plate — or some coddling nonsense. Kinda like when Fuld was in left last season and Kosuke was in center.
A terrible spring won't do it.
An injury would, but then, the Cubs might decide to push Starlin Castro ahead.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I like what I see from Baker
But I don’t want another year of Mike Fontenot being overexposed. I’m worried that he’ll get more at-bats than Baker because signing Byrd would mean the Cubs need another lefty bat playing every day.
That’s actually one of the reasons I think the Cubs should explore Ankiel (note that I said “explore” not “sign at all costs”). If Ankiel (or any lefty) is hitting sixth in the Cubs lineup, there’s less of a chance that Fontenot cracks the lineup most days. A lefty
Lineup with lefty centerfielder
Kosuke, Theriot, Lee, Ramirez, Soriano, Lefty centerfielder, Soto, Baker
Lineup with righty centerfielder
Theriot, Fontenot, Lee, Ramirez, Soriano, Kosuke, Byrd, Soto.
It doesn’t work well with Podsednik, either, because he would have to hit higher in the lineup — meaning Kosuke’s back protecting Soriano or Aramis. Not to mention the defense.
Pods, Theriot, Lee, Ramirez, Soriano, Kosuke, Soto, Baker
All of this is why Granderson would have worked so well. I’m guessing we’ll get Byrd, and maybe that’s the best, safest move. But Ankiel is intriguing.
And flame away, Ankiel haters. I know it’s not an ideal solution.
Byrd has the backwards splits
so he may not have the effect you expect. Plus, I suspect Byrd, if acquired, will be targetted for the top of the order.
I think if you’re really worried about Fontenot’s playing time, Church is a better option because his bat would look a lot like the idealistic Fontenot projection (not the over-his-head-Chase-Utleyish-2008 Fontenot).
I suspect to start we’ll see
Theriot
Byrd
Lee
Rami
Dome
Sori
Soto
Font/Baker
and I also don’t think that lineup will last that way for long.
"We’re going to come back here next year healthy and do what we’re supposed to do, and we’re going to be all right. That’s not Hendry’s fault. He thought it was the right move. It didn’t work out. But at the same time, he’s the same guy that put back-to-back championship teams together." - Aramis Ramirez
Plus, I suspect Byrd, if acquired, will be targetted for the top of the order.
i highly doubt it, beyond 2008 his OBP numbers arent that amazing
Eric Hanna and FAN of the BULLS, the two greatest BCBers in the history of mankind
by jesus christos on Dec 21, 2009 6:47 PM CST up reply actions
Just because his OBP numbers aren't that amazing
doesn’t mean we wouldn’t try him up there.
"We’re going to come back here next year healthy and do what we’re supposed to do, and we’re going to be all right. That’s not Hendry’s fault. He thought it was the right move. It didn’t work out. But at the same time, he’s the same guy that put back-to-back championship teams together." - Aramis Ramirez
why would you?
Eric Hanna and FAN of the BULLS, the two greatest BCBers in the history of mankind
by jesus christos on Dec 21, 2009 8:48 PM CST up reply actions
a lack of better options
from Lou’s perspective. If you have to have speed – which guys do you put up there? Theriot and Byrd.
"We’re going to come back here next year healthy and do what we’re supposed to do, and we’re going to be all right. That’s not Hendry’s fault. He thought it was the right move. It didn’t work out. But at the same time, he’s the same guy that put back-to-back championship teams together." - Aramis Ramirez
Theriot isn't that fast.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Dec 22, 2009 11:15 AM CST up reply actions
Depends
Is he running to 2nd base or to a microphone?
"We’re going to come back here next year healthy and do what we’re supposed to do, and we’re going to be all right. That’s not Hendry’s fault. He thought it was the right move. It didn’t work out. But at the same time, he’s the same guy that put back-to-back championship teams together." - Aramis Ramirez
byrd aint that fast either
Eric Hanna and FAN of the BULLS, the two greatest BCBers in the history of mankind
by jesus christos on Dec 22, 2009 12:21 PM CST up reply actions
He's super fast, but only if you start timing
when he actually moves to steal a base. If you time at the moment he should start, you have to wait 1.5 seconds because he double clutches his starts too.
at daver's request, Let's frontload this B**ch!
he isnt fast
but he is quick
/sarcasm
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
well ...
I hope you’re right about Byrd’s hitting ability, and wrong about where he would hit. I think the lineup would be much stronger like this.
Fukudome, Theriot, Lee, Ramirez, Soriano, Byrd, Soto, Baker/Font.
This is the lineup I'd like to see on occasion
Soto, Dome, Lee, Rami, Sori, Byrd, Baker, Riot
"We’re going to come back here next year healthy and do what we’re supposed to do, and we’re going to be all right. That’s not Hendry’s fault. He thought it was the right move. It didn’t work out. But at the same time, he’s the same guy that put back-to-back championship teams together." - Aramis Ramirez
A terrible spring won't do it.
An injury would, but then, the Cubs might decide to push Starlin Castro ahead.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
semi OT from the OP: Scott Hairston
The more I think about it, the more I’d like to see the Cubs pursue him, if he is available, as some are speculating. Now, I wouldn’t play him in CF regularly, but if you can add him, you add a good versatile OF as depth, someone that has some pop in the bat, which is somewhat needed right now. He should be relatively cheap from a salary perspective. Getting him would allow you to play hardball a bit more with the other FA candidates. It doesn’t sound that bad to me. Again, not suggesting Hairston as the answer in CF, but suggesting him as a bench player who could allow us to play hardball. Now, if Oakland wants anything close to what they gave up, then no.
If we were dealing with the A's
would you be going after Hairston before their other OFs?
I do like the idea of adding Hairston for leverage and being able, if nothing else, to use him as a Dome-rester in the end.
"We’re going to come back here next year healthy and do what we’re supposed to do, and we’re going to be all right. That’s not Hendry’s fault. He thought it was the right move. It didn’t work out. But at the same time, he’s the same guy that put back-to-back championship teams together." - Aramis Ramirez
Early indications
are that they aren’t going to move Davis or Sweeney, which is what I expected. Like several organizations in recent years, they’ve been placing a strong emphasis on defense, and that could be a great defensive OF (Davis/Crisp/Sweeney). In reality, they’re simply stopgapping for some fo their prospects (Michael Taylor, maybe Chris Carter, but I think they’ll find a way to get Chris to first eventually). I’d probably go for Davis first, followed by Sweeney, then Hairston. While I think Sweeney holds more value than Davis overall as a player, Davis is probably the better defensive CF. I’m not really in love with either guy as a top of the order bat.
Warning!! Can of worms to be opened!
We continue to talk more and more about the need to be strong defensively up the middle. Let’s forget the SS / 2B situation for one minute and concentrate on CF. I keep expecting, based on what I’m reading, to hear an announcement any day regarding Marlon Byrd, but nothing has come yet. Not having seen much of Byrd with my own eyes, I really only know him through his stats. Although nothing jumps out at me to the point where I would be really excited if we signed him, I also would not consider it a disaster, unless it was a huge, backloaded contract, which is unlikely. In other words, I’d give him a chance.
So I’m going to bring it up again: would Reed Johnson as our everyday center fielder be worth a shot. Some say yes, some say no. I don’t know his health status, and haven’t heard anything regarding that since the season ended. But assuming he’ll be healthy by spring training, his numbers are very similar to Byrd (a few less home runs), they are both righty, Reed is awesome defensively (a big plus), more than adequate offensively, is a great clubhouse guy, would not be overly expensive (I wouldn’t think), and loves playing here. If we were trying to get Torii Hunter for CF, that would be different. But unless Reed is not projected to be healthy, what other options out there are better than Reed. And why? I’m just not getting why this doesn’t seem to be an option, unless Hendry & Co. know he is not healthy. At least if he’s healthy, we know what we’re getting.
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004
Reed
I really don’t mind if Reed is in a platoon in CF, but he’s really not that good of a defensive CF. He’s a good corner OF that can play some CF, IMO. At the right price, I’m fine with him back.
He's not awesome defensively in center - left field is actually his best position.
And he’s not really more than adequate offensively because of his extreme splits.
Don’t get me wrong. I love me some RJ – great role player, great clubhouse guy. But I wouldn’t be comfortable with him as a starting centerfielder unless it was a platoon arrangement.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
His awesome catch in Washington....
was as a CF, which might have been the best catch I have ever seen a CF make. I think his great catch in Milwaukee to rob Prince Fielder of a grand slam was in RF. Even so, if you look at his stats in Toronto when he was an everday player, or even his ‘08 season where he played in 109 games, his stats are as good or better than Byrd or any other CF out there on the market. As I said, if we sign Byrd, or anyone else for that matter, I’ll give them my support and give them a chance. But unless he’s not healthy, I think Reed could do the job. To me, he’s earned his pinstripes, and I’d love to have him back.
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004
the stats show that he is not as good as Byrd or others in the field.
he is a great person, makes some amazing catches, is the perfect clubhouse guy, the anti-Bradley in so many ways. He is just not as strong a fielder as we truly need, and his health is a concern
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
How is Byrd in the field?
I’m not disputing what you’re saying, but I honestly am curious because, as I said above, I haven’t seen much of Byrd in the past. I honestly have only his stats to go by. Is he a good center fielder?
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004
my coworker is an Angel fan
and hope we sign him to get him off the Rangers if that helps any. i too only have the stats, and those stats all point to him being an upgrade in the field for us.
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
The UZR stats which you can find at the bottom of player cards on fangraphs
have Byrd as pure average at CF and RJ as significantly below average. RJ makes amazing catches, but doesn’t end up covering as much ground. In other words, when you see RJ dive to make a catch and it’s entertaining and cool that he did that, a guy like Mike Cameron actually makes that catch standing up, because he can read the ball better and run better routes. So, Cameron’s fielding doesn’t look as cool, but actually turns doubles into outs.
"We’re going to come back here next year healthy and do what we’re supposed to do, and we’re going to be all right. That’s not Hendry’s fault. He thought it was the right move. It didn’t work out. But at the same time, he’s the same guy that put back-to-back championship teams together." - Aramis Ramirez
by DGU on Dec 22, 2009 8:43 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
perfectly explained DGU.
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Yes, except that Cameron is now with Boston.
I’ll take your word for it that Byrd is an OK center fielder. Like I said, if we sign him, I’ll support him. I haven’t seen anything in his stats to make me feel like signing him would be a bad thing. I’m only saying that if he’s healthy, I would have no problem with Reed Johnson as our center fielder. Some people disagree with me, and that’s fine, but I love guys who play balls out 100% of the time. I think Reed would prove a lot of people wrong who say he is strictly a role player.
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004
i mean nothing bad about RJ
I love his character, he is one of those players you just want to see succeed no matter what. just that all the stats show Byrd to be an upgrade, and that is what JH needs to do, right?
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
i mean nothing bad about RJ
I love his character, he is one of those players you just want to see succeed no matter what. just that all the stats show Byrd to be an upgrade, and that is what JH needs to do, right?
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
i mean nothing bad about RJ
I love his character, he is one of those players you just want to see succeed no matter what. just that all the stats show Byrd to be an upgrade, and that is what JH needs to do, right?
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Wow, you really don't mean anything bad about RJ.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
didnt mean to say it twice
i didnt mean to say it twice
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
One place to look is
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/j/johnsre02.shtml
Averages indicate that Johnson just doesn’t get to his fair share of balls in CF or RF, but is/was OK in left. However, the majority of his games in LF were in Toronto, so some of what is in those splits is a younger/healthier Reed Johnson.
Now, no one is going to mistake Byrd for the young Willie Mays. But his numbers over most of his career suggest at least an average CF. But getting a reasonable CF lets the Cubs move Fukudome back to RF, shifting him from a significant minus in the field to a plus.
Well, yeah, that was an awesome catch.
But, just to play devil’s advocate, he wouldn’t have had to dive like that if he’d had better range. A natural centerfielder would’ve caught up to that ball sooner. Plus, one really shouldn’t judge any player on a single (or even a few) spectacular or spectacularly awful defensive plays.
I actually haven’t compared RJ and Byrd’s numbers head to head. But, looking only at Byrd’s career splits, they’re very even from either side of the plate. Again, Reed appears to be at a pretty marked disadvantage against RHP – which are most of the pitchers in major league baseball.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
Important point - great fielders make plays look easy
As a young player, writers described Joe DiMaggio “gliding” to balls. But when you look at the number of balls he got to, it was significantly better than the average for the league. And closer to home, Sandberg didn’t make many diving stops – he didn’t have to.
"would Reed Johnson as our everyday center fielder be worth a shot. "
In a word, no. He is a role player at best, not an everyday player. He can’t hit RH pitching and he has become increasingly injury prone.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Dec 23, 2009 10:23 AM CST up reply actions
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