What we learned from the Bradley debacle
by reedjohnson on Dec 22, 2009 1:10 PM CST
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PrintI don't post here often, so forgive me. I usually only show up when I'm pissed about the Cubs as this is the only catharsis I have.
So what did we learn from the Bradley incident that management needs to apply going forward? To me, the answer is obvious: the Cubs need to stay away from head cases that can't handle pressure. Bradley obviously couldn't hack it in a big media market, let alone in Chicago on a team that hasn't won in 100 years. It's not another fluke Cubbie occurrence that Bradley had the worst season of his career here - it was the PRESSURE. I truly believe that playing for the Chicago Cubs is the most stressful, pressure filled environment in sports. Combine the pressure of that 100+ years and the bloodlust for a championship among us fans, and many of our guys just try too hard. I still remember DeRosa on that WGN special sharing how badly he wanted to win a championship for the longsuffering fans- and when DeRosa booted that DP ball in game 2 last year, immediately my mind hearkened back to that comment. No surprise he choked - he was just trying too hard! Same issue in 2003, 2004, 2007 and 2008- we simply wilted under the pressure.
With that said, the way we evaluate players needs to change. It's easy to say in retrospect, but we should have done our homework better on Bradley before signing him, or just used some common sense. At the time, I kept hearing from so many on this board that "Bradley can rake when healthy..." but what part of a career high of 77 RBIs did we miss here? The man may be able to hit, BUT NOT WITH MEN ON BASE and that's all that matters. The RBI gets dismissed as an outdated statistic, but Bradley's 40 some RBIs all season last year is all you need to understand. Contrast this with Abreu, a man who consistently drives in 100 runs a year while hitting less than 20 HRs (and in a pressure cooker in NY previous, no less), who would have been a far better option.
It seems that every year since 03, we have a common theme on this team: poor average with RISP, can't get men in from 3rd with less than one out. This isn't surprising- those are PRESSURE situations, the thing that has unglued this franchise for years. Yet we try and address this issue by signing guys like Soriano and Bradley, and we wonder why it doesn't work.
With this in mind, I'd love to see us pay a little more attention to RBIs, BA with RISP, SLG with RISP, ability to close games, and a player's overall response to pressure in the past before signing them in the future. To be sure, I can't comment on a player's mental fortitude ahead of time, but it isn't my job to do so- it is, however, the job of a competent GM. Maybe that'll spare us the Bradleys, Hawkins, and Sorianos of the world in the future. I'd dance with joy if we traded Zambrano- you really think a headcase like him will lead us to October glory? Please. When we see signs of mental frailty in a player early on (Marmol, Hill), we need to dump him ASAP, knowing that headcases cannot prosper at Wrigley (mark my words, Marmol's value will plummet by year's end). Of course it's easy to say this in retrospect, but for the life of me I can't understand why such thinking never appears to even enter the mind of Cubs brass when assembling a team.
I've said it before and I'll say it again- it would take an unusually strong group of men to win a World Series for the Chicago Cubs. Men who cannot handle the pressure cooker of Wrigley need not apply. And at the point a Cubs team does not seem to have the fortitude to win it all (see 2007, 2008), blow it up and start all over again. This is the only way we'll ever win it all. Mr Ricketts, I hope you are listening.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
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I made a similar point...
… right before Bradley was suspended. The Cubs messed this up. They brought in a guy they were literally incapable of handling. If you bring in a guy with a history of problems, you better lay a groundwork in advance to ensure you can handle him. The Patriots can take on the Randy Moss and Corey Dillon’s of the world and come out smelling like roses. Certain players, like MJ, can take on the Rodmans of the world and get them to step in to line.
What did the Cubs do to insulate themselves from the risk that accompanied Bradley? Nothing.
I anxiously await the reasonable trading of Milton Bradley.
Dum spiro spero... | Follow me on twitter or else: @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Dec 22, 2009 1:22 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
Where are the mental health professionals?
I know that mental health is such a touchy issue, but you have a group of guys who are generally not well educated, being paid huge money, and out of touch with their families for weeks/months at a time. That’s a recipe for disaster.
Would a talk therapist have helped Bradley from exploding on reporters/fans?
Would a sports psychologist help Zambrano focus his energy?
Would Khalil Greene have lost part of his season to anxiety issues?
It would seem that having somebody on staff like that would be valuable. Obviously not the be all and end all, but still a positive contribution.
Are you familiar with the old robot saying, "Does not compute"?
by dr stabbingworth on Dec 22, 2009 1:33 PM CST up reply actions
It's something even simpler than that.
Bradley himself said he doesn’t like a lot of attention — something confirmed when we heard that he had isolated himself from his teammates, despite their efforts to include him.
Why, then, would you sign with the third-highest-profile team in baseball, a team that has a national fanbase and gets more attention than anyone but the Red Sox and Yankees?
Bradley made a mistake in thinking he could succeed as a Cub. Hendry & Co. made the same mistake. Hope the latter has learned this lesson well.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
The guy is a prime canidate for some media training.
I anxiously await the reasonable trading of Milton Bradley.
Dum spiro spero... | Follow me on twitter or else: @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Dec 22, 2009 1:50 PM CST up reply actions
Frankly, I don't think it would help.
He’ll be fortunate to be in a market where the local media is much more laid-back than it is in Chicago.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Didn't we have one a couple years ago?
Can’t remember if it was Baker of Baylor, but they brought in that trainer who made the team believe in themselves…
Also, it helps to have people in the clubhouse to help keep people in line, but most of them were gone.
Do you really think that Kerry Wood and Mark DeRosa would have put up with Bradley’s crap for one week? Like he said above, Michael Jordan helped to keep guys like Rodman in line, and it helps to have clubhouse leaders to help keep guys like Bradley in line.
Since Hendry decided to replace strong, quality players (and great clubhouse guys) with someone like Bradley (and trade away other quality players just to get the money to bid against himself in order to overpay for him), then the Cubs ended up in the mess they were in.
Virtually everyone panned not only the Bradley signing, along with the other moves that he made to make the signing, at the time, so this isn’t just Monday morning quarterbacking. Too bad no one was held responsible for the mess that was made.
by TheGrinch13 on Dec 27, 2009 10:39 AM CST up reply actions
clearly you have not been reading dartmouthcubfan's posts
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Dec 27, 2009 10:49 AM CST up reply actions
Virtually everyone panned not only the Bradley signing
You can’t just… make stuff up.
Dum spiro spero... | Follow me on twitter or else: @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Dec 28, 2009 9:34 AM CST up reply actions
Lois: Well Peter I guess you learned a pretty valuable lesson
Peter: Nope!
Are you familiar with the old robot saying, "Does not compute"?
by dr stabbingworth on Dec 22, 2009 1:27 PM CST reply actions
A few points to make....
First, I agree with your overall point in which the mental fortitude of players has to be considered more closely when making player acquisitions. Myself, and many others here have made virtually the same comments here for a long time. Now, although I have made that comment and agree with most of what you said, I have to preface that by saying I have no idea in hell how to determine whether or not a player can handle playing for the Cubs without actually seeing them play here first.
I think we all realize, as I sure as hell hope Hendry & Co. do, that a player having a great year in places like Minnesota, Florida, San Diego, will not always translate into similar production in the fishbowl environment of Wrigley. However, occasionally a Mark DeRosa player does come along with thrived in Arlington, Texas, and then did great in Chicago. So some guys can make the jump from small to big market. Yes, he wilted in the playoffs along with almost all the other Cubs. But who is to say for sure that Marlon Byrd, for example, would not be able to handle the pressure of Chicago? Who would have thought that Ryan Dempster would be able to handle it, based on his mediocre career stats in Cincinnati and Florida? You just never know about certain guys, and even though I know it’s important, I can’t come up with an evaluation system that might work. I think they just need to do a better job of explaining to players what they are getting into, because I think most players have no idea.
This is the million dollar question: how do we pre-determine which players can thrive in this environment, which I agree, has to be the most challenging place in baseball to succeed because of all the factors involved. (Team history, dedicated but demanding and long-suffering fan base, day games, old and historic ballpark with outdated player facilities, etc.) Pre-qualify guys for Cubdom, if you will. I have thought long and hard about this, and I honestly don’t know. I will throw in one other tidbit, though: You mentioned Zambrano is an example of who can’t thrive here. He is really the only guy who showed up for the playoffs in ‘07 and ’08 both. He threw a great game in Game 1 in ’07 and got no run support. And he looked great to start Game 2 in ’08 only to have his defense turn a would-be 1-2-3 second inning into a 5-run debacle, so we’ll never know for sure. Also, you can’t blow it up and start over in Chicago like you can in Atlanta, San Diego, Florida, etc. because you have 40,000 people in the park here every day. It’s simply never going to happen here.
The Bradley thing, I agree, was crazy. But for all we know, Carlos Silva could win 15 games here. (Unlikely, but who can say for sure it won’t happen). If anyone comes up with a workable pre-qualification system, please let me know. Because we need it badly. The pressure of playing for the Cubs is only going to get worse at times goes on.
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004
To expand on your point about pressure...
… even guys like Ryan Dempster and Mark DeRosa, who appeared to really understand what that pressure was all about, failed in the playoffs.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Exactly.
That’s why trying to figure out a “system” for evaluating what a player is made of mentally is so frustrating. I know we all are pretty critical of JH here, but the bottom line is that he built a world championship caliber team in 2008, that just didn’t get the job done in the playoffs, after responding to pressure all year long.
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004
DeRosa made an error in the 2008 playoffs, yes.
He also posted an OPS over 1.000, with 2 doubles, a HR, 2 runs scored and 4 batted in. He was far and away the best hitter of the recent playoff teams.
His teams have failed, but to say that DeRosa “failed” is kind of stretching it. He hit .333 in two consecutive Cubs 3-and-outs, and then he hit .385 in the Cards’ 3-and-out.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
There's a host of mental health questionairres
that the NFL employs on it’s draft eligible plkayers. I’m sure a sports psychologist would say that if they sat down with a player they could give their opinion on how they felt that player could perfomr in a more stress packed environment. That being said, there’s no way unions or agents would ever allow it.
Hindsight being 20/20, in the case of Bradley, no one needed any of that to figure out he wouldn’t be a good fit. Yes, they should have done a better job at vetting players, but it’s not like they have a giant population from which they can choose players. They have a very, very small amount of human beings that are gifted enough to play at the MLB level. Teams will have to take calculated risks on players.
You can argue that the calculated risk was not a good risk to take in regards to Bradley and I think you have a solid premise.
by jerry morales rules on Dec 22, 2009 1:41 PM CST up reply actions
Maybe, and I'm only half-joking here,
they need to look into getting a hypnotist to work with the Cubs to either help them block out the knowledge that it’s been over a century of failure, or even more simply help them to pre-visualize themselves winning it all. Obviously they need to get into a zen kind of place where there are no Greek orthodox priests or goats, etc. and just be in the moment, separate from their fears and pressures.
"I have the time and hatred but not the knowledge." ~Madison Cub Fan (Aug. 25, 2009)
Bill Faul used hypnosis
http://www.historicbaseball.com/players/f/faul_bill.html
Didn’t help the 1965 Cubs.
But nothing would have helped that group.
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Dec 22, 2009 7:08 PM CST up reply actions
i learned no matter how far from Chicago MB is
he will still get a few hundred posts
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
In the poster's defense
I think this is a post about Hendry more than MB.
by jerry morales rules on Dec 22, 2009 1:42 PM CST up reply actions
i was not ripping into the poster
just the topic itself, and even if it is a knock at JH for signing MB, its just more of the same so to speak.
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
I understand the bradley fatigue...
..similar to Lovie Smith fatigue. but yes, I intend this as a post about Cubs management, and with a proactive look to the future rather than crying over spilled milk.
I apologize over another Bradley post.
its cool
no need to apologize.
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
So what?
Cubs fans have the right to their opinion. Are you playing BCB Thread Policeman again?
by TheGrinch13 on Dec 27, 2009 10:40 AM CST up reply actions
so according to what you are saying
its ok to have opinions, but i should not state mine cuz that is policing??? seems a little bit of a double standard
and yes, the topic of MB has been beaten to death, hence my comment above
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
This is a board about the Cubs. Milton Bradley is certain to come up from time to time.
by TheGrinch13 on Dec 27, 2009 10:52 AM CST up reply actions
and he has too many times
so yes, my opinion which you stats thisboard is about, is that this is beating a dead horse
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
MB is not a Cub anymore
so let it go.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Dec 27, 2009 11:21 AM CST up reply actions
not to mention my comment was 5 days old
before he decided to jump it. time to move on IMHO
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
What have we learned
Most people on BCB don’t have their internet monitored at work…especially on Friday :)
by ak123 on Dec 22, 2009 1:44 PM CST reply actions 2 recs
REC'D
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Dec 22, 2009 1:45 PM CST reply actions
What did we learn?
Hopefully… I hope we realize that no matter what we do to it, a large pile of crap is always going to be a large pile of crap!
I don't know what that eval system should be either...
but it would seem to me that some of it is pretty objective: what’s a player’s career numbers with RISP? Season high in RBIs? ERA when closing vs. setting up? Don’t we look at these things? It seems we’re finally paying attention somewhat to the new sabermetrics stats (OPS, OBP in particular) but these old fashioned numbers, in our case, might do us more good. Leading the AL in OPS is great, but that does not necessarily translate to Chicago. A player who can’t succceed in pressure situations (RISP) in San Diego, for instance, probably will do even worse here, and should immediately be ruled on on that basis.
With that said, I realize that such evaluation of a player’s fortitude is far less cut and dried than I make it. At the end of the day, stats can’t explain or predict human behavior or emotional makeup. For many, guessing this ahead of time is a crapshoot; for others like Bradley, however, poor results IMO can rather easily be predicted.
by reedjohnson on Dec 22, 2009 1:57 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
I would add that it's not the parts but the sum of the whole.
It has to start with leadership. It goes from Ricketts (now that we have a face of the franchise) to Hendry, to Manager and all the coaches. The players are next to follow the leadership theme (or call it winning attitude) that has been established. Together to-get-there is the theme where everyone pulls their part.
I think we have many of those guys in place. The problem is getting over that hump and getting to the playoffs and winning. We were so close in 2003 that one change in history may have got us to the world series.
We have to have the parts in place to make a team commitment, the Bradley’s of the world just don’t fit in. It is critical for this to be a top down approach and having the players willing to do those things we like to see instead of padding their own stats.
I hope Ricketts knows how critical he is in this whole equation.
This is only the beginning....Lou Pinella end of '07 season and Chicago Transit Authority (the band when they were really good).
UGH!
Since Hawk left… RF has become nothing but a black hole of controversy for the Cubs.
“Call it… the Curse of the Hawk”
From…
Sosa, Jones, Fuk (he’s a good defender, but way overpaid), to now Bradley…
Wow…
(Hehe… sorry, just trying to have a little bit of fun with this.)
Yep... I sure did.
I think he did OK… but a lot of peeps expected more from him…
Good guy though!
“The Curse of the Hawk”
by TheHawkRules on Dec 22, 2009 2:18 PM CST up reply actions
Don't downplay Burnitz
He’s the only Cub to hit a HR inside Yankee Stadium!! Other than that, he was pretty useless.
I’m curious. . . can anybody provide Ron Santo’s RISP?
If so, thanks in advance
Numbers may not lie, but they don’t tell the whole truth (and nothing but the truth), either. -- Doug Glanville
.281/.387/.476
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?n1=santoro01&year=Career&t=b#bases
Are you familiar with the old robot saying, "Does not compute"?
by dr stabbingworth on Dec 22, 2009 2:51 PM CST up reply actions
What makes this move...
…scary, is the fact that the common fan could figure out signing him was a risk, and you hope the myriad of people Hendry had looking at this would have even better information.
Also, it doesn’t help when you also give the guy a contract no one else was willing to give, and end up extending your risk even further.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
good luck
trying to evaluate players based solely on stats like RBIs, BA with RISP, SLG with RISP
RBI’s are lineup dependent and any RISP data is usually littered with sample size issues from year to year.
I’m not sure there’s an easy fix to this problem. Perhaps all of us should take some prescription drugs and calm down and then the players can play in a more relaxed environment
follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer
by DartmouthCubsFan on Dec 22, 2009 3:21 PM CST reply actions
Good luck regardless
AndrewJStone’s post about Bradley and his value showed that statistically, he was a good value. But was he successful? Was there any metric that would have been a warning sign?
Interestingly enough, his career high in RBIs (yes, I know, not a good stat) might have been the thing to look for, based on what the Cubs were looking for.
Are you familiar with the old robot saying, "Does not compute"?
by dr stabbingworth on Dec 22, 2009 3:32 PM CST up reply actions
How's that for a promotional giveaway?
the first 10,000 fans get a complimentary prescription of Xanax, courtesy of Abbott Pharmaceuticals. That might work!
Of course it’s agreed that RBIs are lineup dependent, but Bradley’s 40 or so RBIs, hitting in the middle of the order, is simply terrible, sabermetrician or no. BA with RISP would not be dependent in this way, though, would it? None of these are magic stats, but certainly we should look at these.
Milton Bradley
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/bradlmi01.shtml
Career line: .277/.371/.450 = .821 OPS
Career line w/RISP: .259/.385/.419 = .804 OPS
its not THAT big of a difference…
follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer
by DartmouthCubsFan on Dec 22, 2009 3:48 PM CST up reply actions
How does that line w/RISP...
… compare to some of the other possible choices a year ago (Ibanez, Abreu, Dunn)?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Dunn: .232/.421/.486
Abreu: .318/.439/.525
Ibanez: 298/.378/.489
Eric Hanna and FAN of the BULLS, the two greatest BCBers in the history of mankind
by jesus christos on Dec 22, 2009 4:03 PM CST up reply actions
every single one of them out OPS's Bradley.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Dec 22, 2009 4:04 PM CST up reply actions
they obviously had bad table manners
Eric Hanna and FAN of the BULLS, the two greatest BCBers in the history of mankind
by jesus christos on Dec 22, 2009 5:33 PM CST up reply actions
and kinder media outlets
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Yeah, that was it.
That’s why they did so much better than Bradley this past year. My God…
by TheGrinch13 on Dec 27, 2009 10:41 AM CST up reply actions
take a class on sarcasm
so you can see it in comments from posters
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
I'm no sabermagician...
…but I believe the relatively small sample sizes involved in RISP stats make such numbers very misleading and inconclusive. So I’m afraid I can’t agree that “we” should be looking at them – though something tells me Jim Hendry already is.
Catch my act on Twitter as @dat_cubfan_dave.
I Agree With the Basic Premise But...
it is largely a crap shoot when it comes to evaluating mental toughness, intestinal fortitude, strength of character or whatever else it is called.
Do you think the Bulls drafted MJ because they thought he was tough mentally? Maybe, along with his obvious talent. They sure blew it with other players like Stacy King. In MJ’s case, he loved the spotlight—he flourished in it but if he didn’t have the innate talent no one would have noticed.
I think that with any pressure filled job the question of mental toughness is one that must be asked but unless the person has a proven track record of being able to perform to a high level under great stress is unanswerable. I have been associated with a highly stressful area of the military since 1966 and I see many parallels between professional athletes and our boys in uniform (with the exception of the huge salaries athletes received). You just don’t know until you’re in the deep stuff, then the cream rises to the top.
Whoever figures out how to cul the weak from the strong will be able to hang with the Bill Gates of the world.
And so it goes.
by Luigi on Dec 22, 2009 4:23 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
can you imagine MB in the Military?.....
A woman's guess is more accurate than a man's certainty.--Rudyard Kipling
by cooliogirl47 on Dec 22, 2009 5:00 PM CST up reply actions
"drop down and give me 20!"
“What else you got?”
Eric Hanna and FAN of the BULLS, the two greatest BCBers in the history of mankind
by jesus christos on Dec 22, 2009 5:03 PM CST up reply actions
If He Brought
the same attitude he’d stay a slick sleave until he was given his BCD.
And so it goes.
Huh?....
what’s a slick sleave and a BCD?
A woman's guess is more accurate than a man's certainty.--Rudyard Kipling
by cooliogirl47 on Dec 22, 2009 6:13 PM CST up reply actions
Military Translator
Slick Sleave: No rank Private, or lowest rank in the military. Usually you will get promoted immediately after Basic Training. You can get demoted back to it for messing up or being a bad Soldier.
BCD: Bad Conduct Discharge or affectionally known as the “Big Chicken Dinner”. Given to real screw ups. They have really screwed and are getting throw out of the Military.
That’s not true!!! WHY THE F*CK WOULD YOU SAY THAT YOU AHOLE!! Ok maybe your right but you gotta give a little something here for it to work. I don’t know what I’m going to do this is the worst thing I’ve ever read, this day could not get any worse. Fine, F*ck it, you’re right.
by Ditkavsworld
thanks...I learn something new here everyday
A woman's guess is more accurate than a man's certainty.--Rudyard Kipling
by cooliogirl47 on Dec 22, 2009 9:31 PM CST up reply actions
didnt know that
thanks
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
He'd be ok...
in the Coast Guard
That’s not true!!! WHY THE F*CK WOULD YOU SAY THAT YOU AHOLE!! Ok maybe your right but you gotta give a little something here for it to work. I don’t know what I’m going to do this is the worst thing I’ve ever read, this day could not get any worse. Fine, F*ck it, you’re right.
by Ditkavsworld
Why?
Because he wouldn’t have to come back????
"I've never complained about it. I'm thankful to have a jersey." Mark DeRosa, 22 Aug 2007
Honesty compels me to say,
the Cardinals very seldom have debacles like this, and we have them all the time…………….Apparently, it seems that hope and desperation tend to breed debacles.
Hey Lou, we're long overdue.
Huh?....
what’s a Cardinal?
A woman's guess is more accurate than a man's certainty.--Rudyard Kipling
by cooliogirl47 on Dec 22, 2009 7:19 PM CST up reply actions
A high ranking official in the Catholic Church....
who serves as liason between his home base and the Vatican, and wears a lot of black and red. I’m not Catholic, and even I knew that.
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004
a football team who has had three home cities
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
St. Louis....Pheonix....and ????
A woman's guess is more accurate than a man's certainty.--Rudyard Kipling
by cooliogirl47 on Dec 22, 2009 8:48 PM CST up reply actions
Chicago
That’s not true!!! WHY THE F*CK WOULD YOU SAY THAT YOU AHOLE!! Ok maybe your right but you gotta give a little something here for it to work. I don’t know what I’m going to do this is the worst thing I’ve ever read, this day could not get any worse. Fine, F*ck it, you’re right.
by Ditkavsworld
Pat Summeral was a kicker for the Chicago Cardinals
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
The Chicago Cards????? wow, that just doesn't look right.
….are you kidding me?
A woman's guess is more accurate than a man's certainty.--Rudyard Kipling
by cooliogirl47 on Dec 22, 2009 9:10 PM CST up reply actions
no its not a joke
The team was established in Chicago in 1898 and was a charter member of the NFL in 1920. Along with the Chicago Bears, the club is one of two franchises still in operation since the league’s founding. The club moved to St. Louis, Missouri, in 1960 and played in that city through 1987 (sometimes referred to as the “football Cardinals” to avoid confusion with the baseball St. Louis Cardinals). Before the 1988 NFL season, the team moved to Tempe, Arizona, an eastern suburb of Phoenix, and played their home games for the next 18 years at Arizona State University’s Sun Devil Stadium. In 2006 the club began playing all home games at the newly constructed University of Phoenix Stadium in the northwestern suburb of Glendale.
The franchise’s lone NFL championship game victory came in 1947 while they were based in Chicago, and came two decades before the first Super Bowl game was ever played.
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
...another thing I never knew, thanks.
A woman's guess is more accurate than a man's certainty.--Rudyard Kipling
by cooliogirl47 on Dec 22, 2009 9:34 PM CST up reply actions
crazy to think two original teams remain
Bears and Cardinals
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
In Fact....
Bears were the North Siders (played at Wrigley) and the Cardinals were the South Siders (played at Comiskey).
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004
and Bears pushed the Cardinals out of Chicago
an interesting read about this
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
that was interesting...
…I cant believe there would be anyone left to cheer for any other football team besides the Bears. Football fans in Chicago seems so dedicated to them.
A woman's guess is more accurate than a man's certainty.--Rudyard Kipling
by cooliogirl47 on Dec 23, 2009 2:08 PM CST up reply actions
Well, remember that...
… the Cardinals move to St. Louis happened in 1960 — almost 50 years ago. As noted in that link, most of the remaining Chicago Cardinals fans are quite old now.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
correct me if I'm wrong
but I think the Cardinals played in Chicago in the first year of the NFL, while the Bears were still the Decatur Staleys.
I remember going to Stagg Field in August as a kid to watch the Cardinals work out and get autographs. I lived in Hyde Park and it was like a mile from my home.
But despite growing up on the south side I’m a lifelong Cubs fan.
by Clark Addison on Dec 24, 2009 9:57 AM CST up reply actions
here goes
harched 1898
first NFL game 1920
Played As:
Racine Cardinals 1920-1921
Chicago Cardinals 1922-1943
Card-Pitt 1944*
Chicago Cardinals 1945-1959
St. Louis Cardinals 1960-1987
Phoenix Cardinals 1988-1993
Arizona Cardinals 1994-Present
first NFL game 1920
Decatur Staleys 1920
Chicago Staleys 1921
Chicago Bears 1922-Present
quote from the Cardinals link of interest
.
Before 1920: The Cardinals roots stretch back to 1898 when a neighborhood group that gathered to play football in a predominantly Irish area of Chicago’s South Side, playing under the name Morgan Athletic Club. Chris O’Brien, a painting and decorating contractor acquired the team later, and soon its playing site changed to nearby Normal Field, prompting the new name Normals. In 1901, the team gained longstanding identification when O’Brien, finding a bargain, bought used jerseys from the nearby University of Chicago. The jerseys were faded maroon in color, prompting O’Brien to declare, “That’s not maroon, it’s Cardinal red!” The club’s permanent nickname had been born! In Chicago at the time, football competition was exclusively amateur, but such opposition became increasingly hard to find, so in 1906, the team disbanded. In 1913, O’Brien reorganized the Cardinals. By 1917 they were able to buy new uniforms and hire a coach, Marshall Smith. That year they lost only two games and were champions of the Chicago Football League. The war in Europe and a flu epidemic in the United States forced the team to suspend operations once again in 1918. Following Armistice Day, O’Brien organized the Cardinals for a third time. From that day forward, the Cardinals have been a permanent part of the professional football scene in America
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
...south siders you say?....figures :)
A woman's guess is more accurate than a man's certainty.--Rudyard Kipling
by cooliogirl47 on Dec 23, 2009 2:04 PM CST up reply actions
That's why team construction
is both an art and a science and a GM better be good at both ends. He needs to not only evaluate the appropriate stats when deciding which players to acquire but he also needs to understand how those pieces will fit together both on the field and off.
There’s no absolute way to approach this but common sense dictates that if a player ( like Bradley) has been disruptive on several different teams there’s a very good chance it will happen again. So why sign him?
In Hawkin’s case, there was perhaps one clue. He had a history of not functioning as well at closer as set- up man. Could that mean he didn’t like pressure or the spotlight?
In Soriano’s case, I don’t see it as a high pressure market problem but rather a problem of paying a player for what he’s already done rather than what he’s expected to do in his declining years when he loses speed and athleticism. Plus, how does Soriano fit well as a lead off hitter…anywhere…which he expected to be when signed.
There are always clues. Players don’t exist in a vacum and a good GM will do his homework and try to figure out not only how the stats of a player can help or hurt the team but his intangibles as well. Obviously it’s especially critical in hign profile large market teams where players reside under a microscope. And because of their history, it’s even bumped up a notch for the Cubs.
Hendry signing Bradley, overpaying Hawkins and dumping mega bucks on Soriano to play LF and leadoff tells me that he hasn’t got a clue about team construction. He’s a good deal maker but IMO, doesn’t know how to build a team.
by alexinSac on Dec 23, 2009 6:54 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
Rec'd
Although, Hendry did seem to do a pretty good job putting together the 2003 and 2008 teams.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Then he tore apart the 2008 team (40% of it) after it won 97 games.
Just to get one player that everyone said we shouldn’t have gotten.
by TheGrinch13 on Dec 27, 2009 10:43 AM CST up reply actions
Do you mean the same team that crashed and burned
two years in a row in the post season? Hendry was right to make changes, unfortunately he did not make the right changes.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Dec 27, 2009 10:50 AM CST up reply actions
had Hendry sat still with what we had
and that team had a 85 win season, the same people would rip Hendry for not making moves I bet
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
no doubt
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Dec 27, 2009 11:21 AM CST up reply actions
Hawkins I blame more on Dusty
when a player tells you he is not comfortable closing, you dont use him as a closer. he has been steady since leaving the Cubs and being back in the set up role.
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Not to defend Dusty...
…which i really hate doing…but my memory of that period was that with Borowski flaming out, he didn’t have too many other options.
by bluekoolaide on Dec 24, 2009 10:24 PM CST up reply actions
Borowski IIRC got hurt?
either way, if the closer tells you he is not comfortbale closing, Baker should have tried anyone else to see if we had another option. I know his hand was forced, but isnt that when you see who can and cannot manage?
I defend Baker when it comes to Wood. People forget that Wood was injured in high school, and had a bad back when we drafted him. He had health issues under Riggleman, Baylor, in the minors, etc.
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
But did Hawkins actually come out and tell Dusty he didn't want to close?
Or was this just something that was inferred by the fact that, in Jay Marriotti’s words, “he handled ninth inning pressure like a grasshopper trying to cross the Dan Ryan”. If he did, then, yeah I agree that he shouldn’t have been forced out there but i don’t remember that actually happening.
I agree that Dusty isn’t too blame for Wood.
by bluekoolaide on Dec 26, 2009 11:46 PM CST up reply actions
he told reporters as well as Dusty
it was in the papers almost daily for a while.
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
It should also be noted -
He signed Soriano to play CF. A relatively crucial position – and a position he had never played and which we eventually learned he was incapable of playing. For 8 years and 140-odd million.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
what hendry
should have learned is this. dont sign a player with such a bad reputation. cub fans knew. bradley is the type of player you have to walk on egshells to be around. that can grate on you with 162 games.
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