DeRosa?
by WGNstatic on Dec 23, 2009 2:00 PM CST
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Yes, it is a slow time for the hot stove, but I am wondering what folks thoughts are on Mark DeRosa given the latest offseason moves.
Per MLB TradeRumors Mark De Rosa was offered 2 year 12M from the Giants. Now he didn't take it, but that is way down from the 10M/yr that he was originally thought to be seeking. I would be happy with him getting 2yr 16M as a Cub.
He could platoon with Fukudome (40 starts), sub for Soriano (20 starts), Aramis (20 starts), DLee (20 starts), and play some 2B along with Fontenot and Baker (say 20 more starts).
Just with those games, which the Cubs will almost certainly need to cover, there are 120 starts for DeRosa, or some other collection of players. The Cubs will be far better off if those games can go to an "everyday" caliber of ballplayer.
Just to emphasize, this is not a "right a wrong" argument, simply that based on some platoon needs, fragile "stars", and some uncertain young players, the Cubs could really use an insurance policy.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
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2 years, $16m from the Cubs?
Way too much. I’m a DeRo fan, but I think 2/12 is about as much as he’s going to get.
Do I want him? He did a good job when he was here. The Cubs don’t really have a spot for him now.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Back ups
I agree that the Cubs don’t have a single spot for him, but as I said in the post, there is basically a full time position needed just for backing up other players.
What’s more, none of those assumptions I made include any significant injuries. Additionally, it is reasonable to assume that Fukudome could be the primary backup CF (in the case of an injury), in which case DeRosa could see even more time in RF.
Basically, he would back up 6 of the 8 positions on the field, and I don’t really see anyone on the current roster who will be able to back up many of those positions.
Eamus Ursuli!
$8m for a backup guy, a guy
who’s expected to produce at second pretty equal to Baker?
That’s a big chunk of budget and doesn’t answer CF
at daver's request, Let's frontload this B**ch!
this is probably a goofy comparison, but....
wouldn’t a “back up guy” for a team in the NL be sort of equivalant to a DL in the AL?
A woman's guess is more accurate than a man's certainty.--Rudyard Kipling
by cooliogirl47 on Dec 23, 2009 9:32 PM CST up reply actions
oops i mean a DH in the AL....$$-wise
A woman's guess is more accurate than a man's certainty.--Rudyard Kipling
by cooliogirl47 on Dec 23, 2009 10:05 PM CST up reply actions
let me put this question another way
….I dont care if we have DeRo or not but the role he played taking over for injured players in 08 seemed more important in 09 when we didnt have him…..if the AL can pay players to hit for their pitchers in a game why wouldnt a team pay for a guy in a “back-up” role? just curious is all.
A woman's guess is more accurate than a man's certainty.--Rudyard Kipling
by cooliogirl47 on Dec 23, 2009 10:31 PM CST up reply actions
cg47...are you kidding me?
for one thing you’re comparing apples and oranges….even if teams set out to look for a “back-up” player type guy, they wouldn’t pay what DeRo is asking……and why wouldn’t they you ask, b/c they can put the money towards a quality starter. Now quit asking ridiculous questions…you’re wasting precious blog space!!!
A woman's guess is more accurate than a man's certainty.--Rudyard Kipling
by cooliogirl47 on Dec 24, 2009 10:42 AM CST up reply actions
feeling a little
schitzophrenic?
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Dec 24, 2009 10:44 AM CST up reply actions
i dont have a multi personality disorder
and neither do i, and neither do i
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
...we think you both are very funny :)
A woman's guess is more accurate than a man's certainty.--Rudyard Kipling
by cooliogirl47 on Dec 24, 2009 11:27 AM CST up reply actions
woo hoo
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
roses are red, violets are blue...
…I’m schizophrenic, and so am I.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
I may be schizophrenic,...
….but at least I’m not schizophrenic ;)
A woman's guess is more accurate than a man's certainty.--Rudyard Kipling
by cooliogirl47 on Dec 25, 2009 8:18 AM CST up reply actions
sure they do
trade Fontenot, make DeRosa the starting 2b, and Baker is the guy who steps in at 2b when DeRosa is subbing at one of the other 345 positions he can play.
If the Cubs could get DeRosa gfor 2/14, I’d do it.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Dec 23, 2009 2:20 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Yes but it is probably better than Fontenot's ever was.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
by Doggie Stalker on Dec 23, 2009 2:54 PM CST up reply actions
and his bat
is definitely better.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Dec 23, 2009 2:57 PM CST up reply actions
Fontenot's defense isn't the problem
Where’s DGU when you need him?
is this one of those player A, player B things?
These are career stats:
Player A: .266/.339/.422/.761
Player B: .275/.343/.424/.767
In 2009:
Player A: .236/.301/.377/.677
Player B: .250/.319/.433/.752
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Dec 23, 2009 3:32 PM CST up reply actions
139 games
71 with Cleveland, 68 with the Cards. Fontenot played in 135 games.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Dec 23, 2009 3:50 PM CST up reply actions
oh, sorrry. I misread.
2 games at second for the Cards. Most of his work was at third for the Cards, and split between 3rd and the OF for cleveland.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Dec 23, 2009 3:51 PM CST up reply actions
What could you trade Fontenot for?
A few weeks ago there were people here that were pretty sure he was going to get non-tendered -
by doofus cubs guy on Dec 23, 2009 4:25 PM CST up reply actions
well,
I don’t know about that. Package him with Riot to get a better SS?
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Dec 23, 2009 4:30 PM CST up reply actions
right ...
so 2009 defensive numbers aren’t apples to apples, are they? Fontenot mostly played second.
Actually
70 games at second with a 1.8 UZR
50 games a third with a -0.6 UZR.
DeRosa put up -5.6 UZR at third last year.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Dec 23, 2009 4:57 PM CST up reply actions
Be careful what you wish for -
I might just say something incendiary, like,
Jeff Baker’s better than Mark DeRosa going forward.
"We’re going to come back here next year healthy and do what we’re supposed to do, and we’re going to be all right. That’s not Hendry’s fault. He thought it was the right move. It didn’t work out. But at the same time, he’s the same guy that put back-to-back championship teams together." - Aramis Ramirez
by DGU on Dec 23, 2009 3:44 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
that's very possible
Not necessarily likely, but possible.
Fontenot gets really nice UZR scores.
2008, he was really good, like top tier 2B. 2009, he was above average good.
DeRosa, on the other hand, was rated as one of the worst 2B in 2008.
"We’re going to come back here next year healthy and do what we’re supposed to do, and we’re going to be all right. That’s not Hendry’s fault. He thought it was the right move. It didn’t work out. But at the same time, he’s the same guy that put back-to-back championship teams together." - Aramis Ramirez
Man, how'd we win 98 games with that deadbeat sucking on defense?
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Dec 23, 2009 5:10 PM CST up reply actions
Well, we did have Theriot at SS.
"We’re going to come back here next year healthy and do what we’re supposed to do, and we’re going to be all right. That’s not Hendry’s fault. He thought it was the right move. It didn’t work out. But at the same time, he’s the same guy that put back-to-back championship teams together." - Aramis Ramirez
Looking at DeRosa's stats...
It doesn’t really look like he was ever much of a fielder in any position he spent more than cursory time at.
That said, I still like him as an option for the Cubs for a number of other reasons.
by CubsWin!Oregon on Dec 23, 2009 2:59 PM CST up reply actions
and it never was all that good to begin with
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Dec 24, 2009 11:01 AM CST up reply actions
I like this idea...
I’d even put him in RF and let Dome platoon with Johnson in CF (or Fuld who hits lefties better). Now enough of this DeRomanticizing.
Someday we'll go all the way...
by CubsBullsBears on Dec 23, 2009 5:59 PM CST up reply actions
amen..
he is a great utility guy but realistically I say wait and see if he is available on ST opening day and try to get him on the cheap…also possible he just had a great couple of years with the Cubs and is WAAAAY over the hill…shoot since it has been implied in other posts that ARam is getting close to being over the hill and Lee should be taken out back and shot
I saw you in that coffee shop, breaking the fifth commandment. Congress passes these things for a reason, Lois.
aw shucks
thanks… :D
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Dec 24, 2009 10:34 AM CST up reply actions
DeRo he has no business being the everyday 2b ... none
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Dec 24, 2009 11:00 AM CST up reply actions
Fontenot is probably as good or better than DeRosa and he's cheaper
by vivaelpujols on Dec 26, 2009 4:54 AM CST up reply actions
except
he’s not as good or better, or he’d show it.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Dec 26, 2009 1:46 PM CST up reply actions
He was a better hitter in 08
And DeRosa was better in 09. DeRosa is also 35 – I don’t think it’s as cut and dry as you think.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 26, 2009 3:27 PM CST up reply actions
Fontenot
was extremely exposed last year. In 2008, he was a part-time player. In 2009, he was a full-time player. And he couldn’t cut it.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Dec 26, 2009 6:49 PM CST up reply actions
Eh, try not to put so much stock in one years worth of playing time
Fontenot had 419 plate appearances last year, which is really not a whole lot. Any player can play a lot worse than their true ability during that span. And there isn’t a huge distinction between being a “full time player” and a “part time player”. He’s still facing the same pitchers, ballparks, etc.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 26, 2009 7:17 PM CST up reply actions
In 2008, he had 284 PAs, and hit .306. Why should we put more stock in that playing time?
He had a negative swing of nearly 70 points in batting average from 2008 to 2009, with nearly 150 more PAs. The biggest difference was playing time.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Dec 26, 2009 8:49 PM CST up reply actions
I don't think we should put more stock into his 08 numbers
But we should value them both.
What you are citing regarding playing time is likely a false correlation. Is there any evidence that increased playing time decreases performance, or, even if there is, that we should give it more weight in regards to Fontenot than we would another player?
by vivaelpujols on Dec 26, 2009 9:44 PM CST up reply actions
this is where i disagree with the stat gurus
at some point you have to stop saying “he played below” and accept the reality of what a player/team did. the stats and projections that are used never will win you a single game in the coming season, but reality of the game once it is played will win or lose it.
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Just stop Tim, you're 100% wrong on this
A persons stats are NOT the final judge of how good he is. If Albert Pujols goes 0-5, would you say he sucks? Of course not, that would be retarded. The situation with Fontenot is the same thing, except with a larger sample size. That does NOT mean you can take his stats at face value, they are simply a SAMPLE of his ability.
You could argue that, from a scouting point of view, Fontenot is not a good hitter. That would be fine, although I wouldn’t put much stock into your scouting observations because you are not a professional scout. However, you CAN’T say that just because he had a bad season statswise, means he is a bad player. That is wrong, wrong, wrong.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 27, 2009 6:13 PM CST up reply actions
this is where i disagree with some stat gurus
as happens any time we talk about stats vs reality vs intangibles, if you disagree with stat guru’s they attack you and tell you that you are wrong, no matter what. this has happened before, and is happening again, and will happen each time. I do not understand why they feel the need to take it personal and make it into a full on attack, and try to steam roll those who disagree (as happened many times before as well). A discussion about this topic seems impossible with some of the stat guru’s since they would rather attack instead of discuss.
and 0-5 for a player in one game means that day he sucked, but that is a sample size that will never be suffice, VEP you know better than to ask something that moronic. Saying my opinion about this means nothing (paraphrasing) since I am not a scount in MLB is funny, since you are not a scout meaning your opinion about it would hold the same water. And yes, there is a certain point where you have to accept reality instead of projections, that is just life.
Why would a persons actual stats over two years or so be called small sample and that they are not who he is? two years shows what Font is, a part time player who is not an everyday player, that is plain and simple to anyone who actually watches the Cubs game day after day.
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Why would a persons actual stats over two years or so be called small sample and that they are not who he is? two years shows what Font is, a part time player who is not an everyday player, that is plain and simple to anyone who actually watches the Cubs game day after day.
But Fontenot’s actual stats over the last two years don’t show this, do they? Fontenot’s stats over the last two years suggest he’s a slightly above-average hitter who plays a premium defensive position very competently.
What you’re doing is just judging him on ONE year, 2009. If you look at his extremely good 2008 (and even include his decent 2007), you’ll get a combined suggestion of what he probably is – a slightly above-average second baseman (which, incidentally, DeRosa probably isn’t, although he’s likely a better hitter overall).
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 29, 2009 6:19 AM CST up reply actions
density definition den·sity (den′sə tē)
noun pl. densities -·ties
1.the quality or condition of being dense; specif.,
a.thickness; compactness
b.stupidity
c.Photog. degree of opacity of a negative
2.quantity or number per unit, as of area
3.current density
4.Physics ratio of the mass of an object to its volume
Font 2008 part time role player = good
Font 2009 given chance to start daily = not good
it is not a hard concept
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
no, we're judging him based on his performance.
nearly 2/3 of his playing time happens to come from 2009.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Dec 29, 2009 7:41 AM CST up reply actions
I'm not correlating anything
other than last year’s Fontenot playing time with last year’s Fontenot results. I make no attempt to draw a broader conclusion.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Dec 28, 2009 1:14 PM CST up reply actions
Right, you are assuming that Fontenot's playing time last year
Was, in part, the reason that he struggled. I am saying that argument has no basis.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 28, 2009 2:09 PM CST up reply actions
what I'm saying
is that based on his performance, I don’t care what the reason is, I don’t want him starting 2b.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Dec 28, 2009 2:53 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
rec'd
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
But his performance hasn't been terrible.
If you don’t treat 2008 any differently than you would 2009, expect for weighing it a little higher because it is sooner and he had more plate appearances, you get Fontenot with about a .760 OPS next year which is above average for a second baseman.
Full formula for “projection” is (((.909*284*4))/(419*5284*4)). The “5” and “4” terms are the weights for each season over and above the plate appearance weights.
His performance LAST YEAR was bad, but the year before it was very good. If you treat each year “fairly” then he still comes out like a good player.
I guess my question is why is 2009 so significant? Why should we consider it so much more than 2008?
by vivaelpujols on Dec 28, 2009 3:45 PM CST up reply actions
because 2009
was the year he was supposed to show us what he could do. He played full time for the first 2/3 of the season. It was his chance to shine.
I don’t know if it was playing full time, or if it was having to switch to 3rd base when Rami went down, or what, but I’ve lost my confidence in him as anything more than a bat off the bench.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Dec 28, 2009 3:53 PM CST up reply actions
Well that's what I was talking about in regards to false correlation
I think that everyone here understands that players can have down years for a myriad of reasons. The question is whether or not, in Fontenot’s case, that is actually caused by something, like increased playing time.
It’s very possible that Fontenot simply had a down year for other reasons, or maybe no reason at all. I’m asking if you have any evidence to suggest that Fontenot’s bad 2008 was caused by him receiving more playing time?
by vivaelpujols on Dec 28, 2009 4:05 PM CST up reply actions
no
Fontenot’s bad 2008 was cause by him playing badly, and I don’t want to see it happen anymore.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Dec 28, 2009 7:23 PM CST up reply actions
we been down this road
a player can hit 250 for ten years, and VEP will tell you he played at that level, but was not a 250 hitter so to speak
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
That would be correct
But in that instance, it’s a matter of semantics. He’s probably more like .251 or .252, depending on his age, but close enough to .250 so we can call him that.
What happens if Fontenot bats .500 for the first 40 at bats of next year? Would you then say he is a .500 hitter?
by vivaelpujols on Dec 28, 2009 9:41 PM CST up reply actions
Font would be a streaky bench player
and no it is not correct, that would mean for his career he is a 250 hitter, proven by his career stats. this is where we differ, and always will differe in opinion. i respect yours, but will never agree with it. i believe in reality over the numbers that dont exist
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
But that position is unsupportable!
That means that if a rookie goes 0-20 in his first 5 games, he should be expected to have a .000 batting average going forward?
by vivaelpujols on Dec 28, 2009 9:53 PM CST up reply actions
Font is not a rook with 20 ABs
and if that rook happened to end his career 0-20 then yes he was just that
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
So what if you guys bring up Vitters
And he goes 0-20, would you expect him to do that going forward?
by vivaelpujols on Dec 28, 2009 9:58 PM CST up reply actions
you were one of many
who told me that the what ifs were nothing more than strawmen last time we had this type of discussion, and now you are using them on me? flip flop often?
Ryno went 0-23 to start his career. So i have seen such a start before and know to be patient and give the kid a chance to get comfortable.
while 0-20 to start his career he is hitless, and not a batter who should hit “x” but is hitting “y”
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
and btw
how would the stats of a 10 year career hitting 250 be unsupportable? the players career stats would directly support it.
again VEP we differ in opinion, and you seem unable to accept that we do not agree. I respect you a lot, and quite often I love reading your posts, as they do bring great insight, but when it comes to stats/projections/tangibles/intangibles we disagree, and i hope we can do so with the utmost of respect.
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
One more thing
Using Baseball Databank, I looked at all players since 1870 that had similar circumstances as Fontenot:
-Year1 between 200 and 300 at bats.
-Year 2 between 300 and 400 at bats
-Year1 OPS – Year2 OPS >= .200
I got a total of 16 players (not including Fontenot). In Year1, they averaged 250 at bats and a .943 OPS. In Year2, they averaged 338 at bats and a .697 OPS. In Year3, those players, weighted by plate appearances, had a .767 OPS.
Pretty much exactly what I predicted above.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 28, 2009 11:22 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
and who
are these players? Talk about trying to find a correlation.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Dec 29, 2009 7:42 AM CST up reply actions
Rec'd
"We’re going to come back here next year healthy and do what we’re supposed to do, and we’re going to be all right. That’s not Hendry’s fault. He thought it was the right move. It didn’t work out. But at the same time, he’s the same guy that put back-to-back championship teams together." - Aramis Ramirez
no
I’d say you were using a small sample size. Fontenot’s sample size is big enough to make a reasonable prediction — for whatever reason, he can’t handle full-time play.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Dec 28, 2009 10:45 PM CST up reply actions
So what if Fontenot goes 20 for his first 40 next year?
In a starting role. Would you say that he has now magically found the ability to hit in a starting role?
You are conflating correlation (IE, what has happened) with causation (what caused it to happen). Give me a reason as to why we should treat 2009 Fontenot as anything other than a down year?
by vivaelpujols on Dec 28, 2009 10:52 PM CST up reply actions
and if i grew tits and shave my legs
will i become a viable contestant for Ms Texas? You keep throwing ideas out there VEP, even tho you told me not to when I was using situation for examples of intangibles before.
Font is a bench player who cannot play everyday as a starter. It was shown this season, please accept that and stop trying to push the envelope.
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
That's not a crazy hypothetical
That’s a very reasonable possiblity.
What would you think about Fontenot if he had a really hot start to 2010?
by vivaelpujols on Dec 29, 2009 12:30 AM CST up reply actions
he is a bench player
and bench players are streaky, he may have a few hot games to start, and then skid right back into his role of bench player.
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
And why do you think he's a bench player?
Because he had one bad season when he was a starter? This is a guy who was a starter his entire career in the minors and in college, and I’m betting he did fine. There is no evidence that being a starter negatively effects players…
So essentially you are saying that because Fontenot had one bad season when he was a starter, that means he is definitley a bench player and shouldn’t be a starter in the future… am I correct?
by vivaelpujols on Dec 29, 2009 12:57 AM CST up reply actions
btw you are wrong to base it on this
This is a guy who was a starter his entire career in the minors and in college, and I’m betting he did fine
Hoffpauir was also a starter in the minors, along with countless others who did not make it in MLB.
Last I checked, Kevin Orie was still starting in the minors, should we give him the job too?
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
no
I’d say that we’d have to see him for at least 400 at bats to get good numbers. You’re trying to use very small sample sizes here.
I don’t want Fontenot to be the starting 2b for the Cubs in 2010. I don’t believe he proved that he can handle the load. I really wanted him to, but he didn’t.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Dec 29, 2009 7:44 AM CST up reply actions
So if Derrek Lee has another bad first month
That means he’s done?
by vivaelpujols on Dec 28, 2009 9:39 PM CST up reply actions
Lee is known forf slow starts
its a trend, just like Fontenot is a bench role player not a starter.
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
What if a guy not know for his slow starts, say Pujols, goes 0 for his first 100?
by vivaelpujols on Dec 28, 2009 9:54 PM CST up reply actions
strawmen VEP
I cannot believe you are really using strawmen now to try and change my opinion.
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
It has a point you know
It’s not a strawman, it’s taking your position to the logical extreme. And given that your position is based on a continuous set of trials, it’s perfectly reasonably to take it to the logical extreme.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 28, 2009 9:59 PM CST up reply actions
if Pujols goes 0-100
that means he is without a hit in some 30 games, and he is likely pushing 45 years old. He would retire before that. Lets not talk crazy and keep it realistic.
and you told me it was a strawman before when i was giving you situations last time we discussed tangible/intangible, so why is it not strawmen now that you want to use situations? let be consistant, right?
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
0-100 is extreme
but look at DLee’s 2009 monthly splits.
Or consider A-Rod’s post-season batting up until 2009. People used to argue that he couldn’t do it in the post-season. Torre even batted him 8th or so. But the sample size finally got large enough that Alex’s post-season career batting line reads just like his regular season career batting line.
"We’re going to come back here next year healthy and do what we’re supposed to do, and we’re going to be all right. That’s not Hendry’s fault. He thought it was the right move. It didn’t work out. But at the same time, he’s the same guy that put back-to-back championship teams together." - Aramis Ramirez
which makes sense
what VEP has said before and tried to make me agree to, is for example the 2009 Cubs team stats were right about the middle, a 500 team, and our wins were close to that as well, but he will state that we only played that way and are actually a team that project based on everything are “x” wins different. a season is not a small sample size, and it is what it is as well.
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
It's not what it is
It may be a sematical difference though.
Here is my question.
If a player bat’s batted .250 in 2007, .250 in 2008 and .350 in 2009, how would you expect him to hit going forward?
by vivaelpujols on Dec 28, 2009 10:54 PM CST up reply actions
.450?
"We’re going to come back here next year healthy and do what we’re supposed to do, and we’re going to be all right. That’s not Hendry’s fault. He thought it was the right move. It didn’t work out. But at the same time, he’s the same guy that put back-to-back championship teams together." - Aramis Ramirez
I wouldn't.
People don’t conform to mathematical progressions.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Dec 29, 2009 7:45 AM CST up reply actions
if he hit 350 in 09
MVP of 2009.
Hard to say what he does going forward, which is why they play the games. THe computers used to spit these stats out for your projections win how many world series…..NONE. Roll your dice, and tell me who wins daily, and I will watch the games and see who actually wins.
again stop trying to convince me, as you never will. I cannot believe in a system that would tell me a career 250 hitter over 10 seasons is not a 250 hitter.
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
I don't care what you think about the .250 hitter
That doesn’t mean I am dismissing your opinion, I simply don’t care. It’s a matter of semantics.
The discussion we are having is about Fontenot, who has had one really good season and one really bad season. Since we are trying to decide what he will do in 2010, we actually need to use projections for that.
I think he will end up in between his 2008 and 2009 numbers, around a .760 OPS, which would make him an above average hitter for a second baseman.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 29, 2009 12:28 AM CST up reply actions
if you dont care
why the need to comment to each of my posts about it? i have told you we disagree, and that i respectfully do so. why you need to continue to egg me on and try to make up any and every situation (inclusing Pujols going 0-100) after telling me in the past that it is not plausible and is the equivelant of throwing strawmen i dont understand. maybe you dont enjoy being told to stop throwing out strawmen like you tell others, and for the record it is what you are doing.
what if neifi perez returns next season and goes 512-512 with 512 hrs, it could happen, but lets be honest it wont so its pointless to talk about, same goes for most of your situations in this conversation, meaning i am going to sleep, lets agree to disagree, and have a great evening VEP
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
I didn't start commenting on your posts!
I was arguing with Drewishdrewid about how Fontenot would do next year, when you came in with the “you stat guru’s” and “you guys”. You were the one that brought it up, and if you bring it up, I am going to disagree with you.
by vivaelpujols on Dec 29, 2009 12:59 AM CST up reply actions
and if you use the BA alone
guess what, Font did better in 08 in a minimal role, and put up lesser stats in a 09 larger role, which tells you what…….he is a role/bench player.
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
No that tells you he had a bad year in 2009
Only you and Drew are correlating that to him being a starter vs. being a bench player. Can you provide evidence for causation?
by vivaelpujols on Dec 29, 2009 12:29 AM CST up reply actions
actually not drew and i alone
it is not a secret he has been revealed as a role player. you can continue your Fontenot for President crusade, but I am going to bed, youhave bored me about this with your continued use of strawmen time after time.
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
I don't think you know what a strawman is
It’s when you create a fabricated argument from other point of view simply tear it down. How am I doing that?
by vivaelpujols on Dec 29, 2009 1:00 AM CST up reply actions
it's the one big difference
in his his situation. The why can’t necessarily be completely defined — maybe it was the pressure, maybe it was the clubhouse character, maybe it was the effort of playing every day, maybe it was being over exposed so pitchers found something in his swing. Who knows? All I know is that when he was used judiciously in 2008, he hit very well, but when he was used every day in 2009, he didn’t. I see no compelling reason to think that 2010 would be any different.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Dec 29, 2009 7:48 AM CST up reply actions
Drew, I'm enjoying your
back and forth, the only thing that would be different is if Fonty was allowed to play 2/3 of the games solely at second and allowed to sit against pitchers where Lou anticipates him struggling.
His being pressed into starting at 3rd and playing every day was not factored into his projections for 2009.
I thought it had been proven that some players take their struggles with the glove to the plate and vice versa.
I’m just saying it’s possible Fonty could replicate his success in 2008 if put in a similar situation where he only plays second and Lou selects the matchups.
at daver's request, Let's frontload this B**ch!
I’m just saying it’s possible Fonty could replicate his success in 2008 if put in a similar situation where he only plays second and Lou selects the matchups.
That would be fine with me. I don’t necessarily want him off the team, I just don’t want him starting at 2b.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Dec 29, 2009 10:40 AM CST up reply actions
And this is why playing both Fontenot and Baker
is an excellent idea – they can protect each other since there are questions about both – but odds are that a mix of those two will be better than Orlando Hudson.
"We’re going to come back here next year healthy and do what we’re supposed to do, and we’re going to be all right. That’s not Hendry’s fault. He thought it was the right move. It didn’t work out. But at the same time, he’s the same guy that put back-to-back championship teams together." - Aramis Ramirez
that
I don’t have a problem with.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Dec 29, 2009 1:01 PM CST up reply actions
100% agreement
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Sure they do
Let him be the starting second baseman, and put Baker in the supersub spot where he belongs. As WGNstastic said, he could also sub for Fukudome against lefties in RF and he’d inevitably be needed when Soriano and/or Ramirez goes down next year with an injury. Who are you going to replace them with when they get hurt? Fontenot? Blanco? Re-sign Scales? C’mon, let’s break away from 2009’s ridiculous mindset and decision-making that cost us the division.
What this fan base needs is a boost, and re-signing DeRosa and putting him out in front of the crowd (and his fellow teammates) at the Cubs Convention would be a good spark in the right direction.
I would hope
that the organization … any organization actually … makes moves on what is best for the team and not whether or not the fans need a boost.
i think trading for joe mauer would boost the fan base
GETITDONE JIM
Eric Hanna and FAN of the BULLS, the two greatest BCBers in the history of mankind
by jesus christos on Dec 23, 2009 10:01 PM CST up reply actions
WE WANT LIND
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
I would love Lind
and yes, I know what this is referencing … but man… I wish we had lind …
i agree
and the reference is the only thing that is better than actually getting him
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
$8mil for a supersub is a lot
I see how you have him starting all over the diamond, which is realistic, but for $8mil?
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Perhaps a bit high
But my point is that with all of those needs the Cubs basically need to pay starter money to someone to back up all those positions.
Eamus Ursuli!
But we still have a hole at CF
I just don’t think that given the money constraints, it’s a good idea
"If I were playing third base and my mother were rounding third with the run that was going to beat us, I'd trip her. Oh, I'd pick her up and brush her off and say, 'Sorry, Mom,' but nobody beats me." ~ Leo Durocher
by Musicdude10 on Dec 28, 2009 11:03 AM CST up reply actions
You're right, he wouldn't sub for Baker
Baker would sub for him, and they could even give Baker some time in the outfield during spring training so that he could sub all over the diamond. Again, we need to do what’s right and put DeRosa back at 2B where he belonged last year.
again
I’m going to ask this again. Why would we
a) Put a poor defensive player there – he’s gotten little interest at 3rd (Giants are the only team right now) and no interest at 2nd.
b) Replace Baker with DeRosa – Baker’s younger, cheaper, likely similar or better offensively and likely better defensively?
If DeRosa comes back, it should be as a utility guy, righty bat off the bench. I’m not against that at the right price, but overpaying for the past is a mistake. Forget the defense a moment – DeRo had some troubling signs offensively last year, where he didn’t show the same discipline and he was swinging more aggressively at pitches outside the zone. His bat simply couldn’t catch up to the fastball as he did in the past. Those are some troubling signs, even if you assume that he gets bit luckier in 2010.
He also had a wrist injury in St. Louis
His offense was sapped during his time there (although he did hit for power at times).
by vivaelpujols on Dec 26, 2009 4:55 AM CST up reply actions
Also...
Adding DeRosa, and considering Fukudome’s ability to play CF, signing DeRosa would enable to Cubs to take a lower-cost-riskier option as their CF (Church, Ankiel etc.) rather than spending bigger money on someone like Byrd.
Eamus Ursuli!
I like DeRosa
but….someone will give him a full time position to play. It’d be great to have him back but won’t happen. Plus…..where does he play IF..Lee, Ram, and Soriano are healthy all year?
They WON"T be healthy
assuming 140-150 starts for Soriano, Ramirez, and DLee is assuming they are pretty healthy.
A guy coming off knee surgery.
A guy rehabbing a badly dislocated shoulder
A guy with recurring neck problems.
These are guys who will greatly benefit from some much needed and planned days off.
Eamus Ursuli!
we've got
a similar player who is better defensively and in all likelihood, similar offensively. DeRosa might have a bit more balanced splits, but Baker’s aren’t bad either. Baker’s got more power potential, Baker’s cheaper, and Baker’s younger. Why exactly would we start DeRosa?
madness:
saying the same thing over and over and expecting a different response…don’t think you’re getting through to them.
by Andronicus on Dec 24, 2009 12:17 AM CST up reply actions 4 recs
rec'd
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
I am proceeding from the assumption
that Baker isn’t the starting 2b, I guess.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Dec 24, 2009 10:35 AM CST up reply actions
I believe we already have our supersup in Baker
Time to let it go. Sosa ain’t coming back. Wood ain’t coming back. Prior ain’t coming back. Choi ain’t coming back and Bradley ain’t coming back.
That’s not true!!! WHY THE F*CK WOULD YOU SAY THAT YOU AHOLE!! Ok maybe your right but you gotta give a little something here for it to work. I don’t know what I’m going to do this is the worst thing I’ve ever read, this day could not get any worse. Fine, F*ck it, you’re right.
by Ditkavsworld
Cliff Floyd?
is he available to come back :-)
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Neifi, Edmonds, Clement
Henry Blanco, Pie, Dontrelle Willis, Ricky Nolasco
They’re GONE. So is DeRosa. Let’s move on
"If I were playing third base and my mother were rounding third with the run that was going to beat us, I'd trip her. Oh, I'd pick her up and brush her off and say, 'Sorry, Mom,' but nobody beats me." ~ Leo Durocher
by Musicdude10 on Dec 28, 2009 11:06 AM CST up reply actions
you know
insisting that a player ABSOLUTELY CANNOT return to a team (Pie, for example) is just as silly as insisting that the return of a player is the only thing that will help (DeRosa, for example).
Pie had a fairly good 2009. He’s cheap, he knows Wrigley’s Center Field. Why NOT consider him?
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Dec 28, 2009 1:16 PM CST up reply actions
I'll consider him
There. He’s not worth what we’d have to give up to get him. We were foolish to give him up and run him out of town.
"If I were playing third base and my mother were rounding third with the run that was going to beat us, I'd trip her. Oh, I'd pick her up and brush her off and say, 'Sorry, Mom,' but nobody beats me." ~ Leo Durocher
Then who is at 2B?
My point is that the Cubs will need about 100 starts aside from 2B this year backing up those other positions.
So if Baker fills in that leaves Fontenot as essentially a full time 2B. Baker can’t be both the super sub and effectively the full time 2B.
Eamus Ursuli!
This point is real, but I don't think DeRosa is the answer at anything close to his current asking price
The real answer may be to pursue someone like Roberts for 2B after the Orioles realize they aren’t a good team in 2010, either.
Noooooooo
We need to shut the door on this. No extended Roberts talk, please.
Please?
Don't be surprised if
Baltimore pushes for .500 and somewhere in the 80-85 win range. It’s probably on the high end of hopes for them this year, but they will have a talented, but young, rotation, a decent-solid pen, and a very solid lineup. The unfortunate thing for them is being in the AL East- On paper, I think they would have the talent to contend in the AL West and CEntral if some things went their way.
Trade for Brian Roberts?
I think I may have heard this idea tossed around a time or two.
Someday we'll go all the way...
by CubsBullsBears on Dec 23, 2009 6:02 PM CST up reply actions
Roberts probably isn't available
The Orioles are getting a lot better, and they’ll probably be moving up in that division during the next several years. They’ll be the next 2008 Rays IMO.
2008 Rays is a little too high for them IMO
Everyone except the Jays got better this off season in the AL East. Baltimore will finish 4th. Lack of a Texiera/Arod or a Youkilis/Ortiz or a Crawford/Pena keeps them from being elite
"If I were playing third base and my mother were rounding third with the run that was going to beat us, I'd trip her. Oh, I'd pick her up and brush her off and say, 'Sorry, Mom,' but nobody beats me." ~ Leo Durocher
by Musicdude10 on Dec 28, 2009 11:08 AM CST up reply actions
what about Filipe Lopez?
….how’s he?….is he still available? (just askin’)
"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring."--Rogers Hornsby
by cooliogirl47 on Dec 27, 2009 1:35 PM CST up reply actions
And if he doesn't pan out?
Who knows if he can replicate the type of year statistically he had last year. At least you know what you’re getting with DeRosa.
Someday we'll go all the way...
by CubsBullsBears on Dec 23, 2009 6:01 PM CST up reply actions
At least you know what you’re getting with DeRosa.
isn’t DeRosa like, historically inconsistent, though? OPSes for the last 6 years:
.614, .764, .812, .792, .857, .752
You could get a great hitter, an average hitter, or a kinda poor hitter. Hmmm.
RELEASE THE CENTIQUID!!!!
by Felonius_Monk on Dec 29, 2009 6:29 AM CST up reply actions
he'd cost a lot left.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Dec 23, 2009 2:58 PM CST up reply actions
ahem. less.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Dec 23, 2009 2:59 PM CST up reply actions
8 mill platoon player?
Eric Hanna and FAN of the BULLS, the two greatest BCBers in the history of mankind
Fukudome?
Someday we'll go all the way...
by CubsBullsBears on Dec 23, 2009 6:03 PM CST up reply actions
Wasn't it Coach who said...
“The past is for cowards and losers.”
Seems like a lot of people need to get more return on their DeRosa jersey investments.
Not a sentimental choice
I liked the DeRosa trade when it happened. As this post discusses, the team needs a bench, which they don’t currently have.
This is NOT about pining for departed heroes, this is about assessing our needs.
Eamus Ursuli!
I was thinking about DeRo the other day ...
The best fit for him on the current roster, IMO, is the starting right fielder, with Kosuke in center. DeRo could, of course, sub at second, third and first and left.
It’s not a great defensive outfield, but if we could get DeRo for two years, $14 million, it might be better than Byrd (who’s also right handed) at the same price.
That would not not only not be a great outfield, it would be much below average
Fukudome out of position in CF (where he is a real defensive minus versus a plus in RF) and an infielder in RF.
DeRo seemed to do fine in right while with the Cubs
He was playing right late in the 2008 season when Kosuke couldn’t hit his weight.
And also when his knee is recovered.
It wasn’t the knee injury that has him run the wrong routes to the ball.
at daver's request, Let's frontload this B**ch!
When he is OK, Soriano can cover for himself a little with speed
But bad routes + slowed by a knee = someone else had better get that ball or it’s a double.
speaking of doubles in the gap
last off season i was scared to death of the idea that Dunn would be in RF with Soriano in LF that without a jet pack Fukudome would be dragging his tongue by the end of APril from chasing down balls
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
when we tendered mike fontenot a contract
i’m pretty sure we canceled out all additional 2b options, i think we can stop clamoring about DeRosa or Orlando Hudson, etc. If the Cubs were really interested in making a move at that position, Fontenot wouldn’t have been tendered a contract
follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer
by DartmouthCubsFan on Dec 23, 2009 2:54 PM CST reply actions
This is assuming that the Cubs are like chess players...
Who are capable of thinking several moves ahead. :)
I’m not saying they aren’t, but sometimes they make me wonder. (Circumstances change of course too…)
by CubsWin!Oregon on Dec 23, 2009 3:01 PM CST up reply actions
Hendry could believe he's got value on the trade market.
But you’re probably right. And after all, a Fontenot-Baker platoon is projecting just as well, if not better, than the options that are out there in free agency.
"We’re going to come back here next year healthy and do what we’re supposed to do, and we’re going to be all right. That’s not Hendry’s fault. He thought it was the right move. It didn’t work out. But at the same time, he’s the same guy that put back-to-back championship teams together." - Aramis Ramirez
Fontenot
I’m sure Mike F is a nice guy (or not, I don’t know), but I really wish we would stop carrying 4 MI’s, even if one of them is a versatile option like Baker. Just bugs the heck out of me.
I'm stunned DeRo could command...
….7m a year. Crazy. Nice player but at his age and in the decline phase, no thanks for those dollars
by JB 23 on Dec 23, 2009 3:00 PM CST via mobile reply actions
I agree
For that money we should be able to get Capps for 2 years and maybe Valverde for one.
Brian Roberts ?
Sorry I can’t help myself.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim
we can't help you
either. :P
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Dec 23, 2009 3:33 PM CST up reply actions
1 Yr/$5 mil
I could see signing DeRosa to a 1-year/$5 million contract. Two years is too much. I’d like to see him come back to the Cubs in a 1-year deal because of his age. He’s not a long term solution.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
well, neither is Byrd
I don’t think the Cubs are looking for a long-term solution. And no way DeRosa takes that deal.
But they are looking at Byrd as a starter in a position the lets the team rationalize the OF defensive alignment
That really needs to be addressed this offseason. The Cubs haven’t been really well served in CF since NL pitchers discovered Cory Patterson would swing at anything – or maybe since they let Lofton walk.
The DeRosa idea is a backup role – that should cost a lot less.
I think DeRosa would come back for less to play for the Cubs again.
He openly said that he missed playing for the Cubs and that he’d really like to come back if given the opportunity. Sounds like a no-brainer to me.
everyone says they'd come back for less
it’s the nice thing to say … but would he come back for substantially less than the 2/12? Because I don’t see the Cubs doing anything near that. Furthermore, would he come back to be a bench/platoon player?
In Brickhouse vernacular,
DeRosa at this point is akin to “the horse already out of the barn”. He was probably our team MVP for two years, and we traded him for it, which was Jim Hendry topping off his horrible 2008-09 offseason with a spectacular finale. Trying to undo that mistake two years later when DeRosa is 34 and injured will simply not work. I love the guy, but nostalgic acquisitions at this point will not help us. That being said, if we did re-acquire him for a reasonable price, there is no way I could be upset about it. That’s how much I respect Mark DeRosa.
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004
There weren't many who were more pro-DeRosa than I
when he was still a Cub. I posted things like how it was shameful to the Cubs how Lou treated Theriot and DeRosa comparatively. So, take this with that perspective.
If we can’t step back now and see that trading Mark DeRosa was a good thing, then we’ve lost perspective. Yes, we failed to have adequate 3B backup (why wasn’t Fox playing 3B in AAA?). That was a bad thing. Yes, we failed to start the season with an adequate 2B platoon partner for Fontenot. That was a bad thing.
But Mike Fontenot hit RHP as well as DeRosa, Mike Fontenot was healthier than DeRosa, and Mike Fontenot played better defense than DeRosa – and at not even a tenth of DeRosa’s price. And we haven’t even mentioned the bevy of usable pitching prospects we got in return. If you’re saying, “But Mike Fontenot was a huge disappointment,” well go look at the kind of disappointment Mark DeRosa was - for two separate organizations.
People claim Jim Hendry is addicted to free agents, but with 2B last year, he avoided free agency for our own guy. People claim Jim Hendry can’t let go of his guys, but Mark DeRosa was as much his guy as anyone, and Hendry sold high on him. Jim Hendry saw that DeRosa was a sell high candidate and he made the right choice to trade him and to give Mike Fontenot a bigger chance.
"We’re going to come back here next year healthy and do what we’re supposed to do, and we’re going to be all right. That’s not Hendry’s fault. He thought it was the right move. It didn’t work out. But at the same time, he’s the same guy that put back-to-back championship teams together." - Aramis Ramirez
by DGU on Dec 23, 2009 4:39 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
one of the better DeRosa comments -- ever
I remember somebody saying that the Cubs didn’t make a mistake letting Moises Alou go after 2004. The problem was they didn’t adequately replace him.
Same goes for DeRo. It was a bad trade because the Cubs put so much on Aaron Miles’ shoulders as the backup at third and the platoon partner for Fontenot. But trading DeRosa as a move on its own merits wasn’t that bad.
Also, how in the hell would ANYONE think DeRosa was the team MVP in 2007 and 2008? I’d say Aramis in both years and Soriano in 2007 — and that’s just off the top of my head.
If Jeff Baker had been healthy at the beginning of the season
and we’d have acquired him instead of signing Miles – this would all be so much clearer.
But losing Ramirez like we did was a punch in the gut – and watching Fontenot and Freel flail at 3B made it hard to catch our breath again. Then seeing DeRosa go to the Cardinals was a kick to the ribs while we were down. I understand the emotional frustration of the DeRosa saga in-season.
But our hindsight should be getting clearer now.
"We’re going to come back here next year healthy and do what we’re supposed to do, and we’re going to be all right. That’s not Hendry’s fault. He thought it was the right move. It didn’t work out. But at the same time, he’s the same guy that put back-to-back championship teams together." - Aramis Ramirez
Or if Corey Koskie worked out.
Censorship of anything, at any time, in any place, on whatever pretense, has always been and will always be the last resort of the boob and the bigot.
—Eugene O’Neill
by 14theofleury on Dec 24, 2009 7:17 AM CST up reply actions
You just hate to see these careers ended by concussion
regardless of what it means to the Cubs.
"We’re going to come back here next year healthy and do what we’re supposed to do, and we’re going to be all right. That’s not Hendry’s fault. He thought it was the right move. It didn’t work out. But at the same time, he’s the same guy that put back-to-back championship teams together." - Aramis Ramirez
as we enter the 13th month of why cant we bring DeRosa back
nothing to see here guys, turn around, lets all go back inside.
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
and josh hamilton
Eric Hanna and FAN of the BULLS, the two greatest BCBers in the history of mankind
by jesus christos on Dec 23, 2009 5:50 PM CST up reply actions
that was always more ridiculous than anything
with guys like woodie, derosa, and brock, they were guys we let go, so i could always understand complaints on that. with hamilton, he wasn’t even ours, and it was only the potential to be ours that people clamored for. There was never any indication that the Cubs wanted him. Furthermore, he was a formerly drug-addicted person who was stumbling around in the low levels at the ime. It was just odd for people to cry about that, imo.
didnt even play one pitch as a Cub at any level
yet some feel he got away, it boggles the mind
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Yes and yes
Some people on here want to make a federal case about something that wasn’t a case in the first place.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Dec 23, 2009 7:31 PM CST up reply actions
SWOON.
I can barely type this while I quiver so…
Dum spiro spero... | Follow me on twitter or else: @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Dec 24, 2009 9:49 AM CST up reply actions
OMG
IT’s MCDREAMY…or maybe mcsteamy…I dunno
I saw you in that coffee shop, breaking the fifth commandment. Congress passes these things for a reason, Lois.
ooo...
I never saw that pic before.
A woman's guess is more accurate than a man's certainty.--Rudyard Kipling
by cooliogirl47 on Dec 25, 2009 8:25 AM CST up reply actions
it's like that scene from "The Natural"
He’s Roy Hobbs looking up in the stands and you’re the Glenn Close character who just stood up.
Of course, since you just blocked the few of several drunk Cubs fans behind you, they immediately start swearing at you, insulting your mating proclivity and finally resort to throwing several half-consumed nacho trays on the back of your beautiful dress and hat.
Funny how we never saw that scene in the movie… ;-)
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
LOL....that's when I turned around
and saw that the malcontents were actually Sox fans, and the true Cub fans next to me, escorted them (not too gently) out of the park.
A woman's guess is more accurate than a man's certainty.--Rudyard Kipling
by cooliogirl47 on Dec 25, 2009 10:54 AM CST up reply actions
Al ehre is your cover for the Annual
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Well I wanted Glaus for a backup, though that's not gonna work
sure, I’d love the idea of having DeRosa back…for the right price of course..
Wrigley Bound in the Summer of 2010
General thought
I’m not against DeRosa coming back as the big righthanded bat off the bench that subs in the corners and is an emergency option at 2nd and 3rd, but as others have noted, not at the price he’s currently asking for. I also wouldn’t start him as much as you are suggesting, even if he did come back. The reality is, his Cub love always outpaced what he was as a player, and now that he isn’t really a passable option at 2nd/3rd anymore, and that he is on the decline and coming off injury, to offer him too much or multiple years is a big risk. As someone noted above, nostalgia is never a good way to plan for the future. We’ve got a younger, better version of DeRosa on hand.
I think the Giants offer may be as high as he gets.
I sure wouldn't support the team matching the Giants' offer
I don’t think they should pay more than that for any of the starting CF options out there. For a bench guy – no way.
I think you guys are missing the boat...
Some of you want DeRo back as the 2B, and it’s hard to blame you after the black hole that was Maron Files. (Keep in mind that DeRo’s defense at 2B would be much better if he didn’t have to constantly shuffle back and forth between IF and OF.) However, Baker is younger and deserves a chance.
Some of you want DeRo in RF, where he has an excellent glove (though that forces Dome to CF where he is not good), simply because you don’t want to overpay for Marlon Byrd. Again, very understandable, and it wouldn’t be the worst idea in the world — certainly not as bad as contemplating Pods in CF. But Lou wants Dome back in RF and so do I.
Some of you want DeRo as a super-sub, remembering the condition of Ramy’s shoulder and Sori’s knee and not knowing if Baker can hit when he is moved around. (That is actually what makes DeRo so valuable; most guys can’t hit when he constantly shuffle positions.) But he would be pretty expensive in that role…
So, there isn’t really much reason for the Cubs to sign DeRo.
However………..
We should be looking to sign DeRo’s shadow… as a pitcher. After all, Gameboard said that one of the reasons he was struggling to hit as a Cub was that it was tough to hit (in) DeRo’s shadow. Think about it.
Merry Christmas everyone, and sympathize with me as I am forced to root for the Yankees next season.
"I've never complained about it. I'm thankful to have a jersey." Mark DeRosa, 22 Aug 2007
by DeRoMyHero on Dec 23, 2009 5:58 PM CST reply actions 2 recs
Don't see DeRosa having interest
Looks like DeRosa has a standing offer from the Yankees that he has been given a few days to consider. If I were him I’d take it.
The Blackhawks and the Stanley Cup in 2010.
And if he came here for the same offer
you would tear it to shreds
Wrigley Bound in the Summer of 2010
That's because Brian Cashman has nice teeth and a warm handshake.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Dec 23, 2009 6:46 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Where does he stand on soup?
Dum spiro spero... | Follow me on twitter or else: @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Dec 24, 2009 9:50 AM CST up reply actions
he can walk on soup?
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
I believe
BLou is saying that the Amazing and Almighty Mark our savior and lord would be wise to take it – he probably would tear Hendry to shreds for offering it.
I saw you in that coffee shop, breaking the fifth commandment. Congress passes these things for a reason, Lois.
you mean
like saying how good the signing was of MB last December and how much JH botched that signing this December?
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
noooo...
I think you are misunderstanding…he was for the singing before he was against it which makes everything a-ok…HA
I saw you in that coffee shop, breaking the fifth commandment. Congress passes these things for a reason, Lois.
ahhh ok i understand now
woo hoo thanks for clearing that up
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
link?
I saw you in that coffee shop, breaking the fifth commandment. Congress passes these things for a reason, Lois.
there's rumors out there
i haven’t seen anything that suggests there’s a concrete standing offer, but maybe BLou has a link. That said, by most indications, as of now, DeRosa would have to take much less to go there (3-4 mil).
Interesting to note
people complaining about the Cubs team “aging” might not have a problem with signing someone who’s going to be 35 in February.
I liked DeRosa, too, but I didn’t think he came up with a cancer cure and had healing powers, either. And he certainly would not have been a difference-maker in 2009.
Anybody complaining about the Cubs signing John Grabow better not be clamoring to bring back DeRosa for the money he’s seeking.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Dec 23, 2009 7:33 PM CST reply actions
Yes, but it would make my wife happier
DeRosa 2008 = Scotty Pods 2005
by RiskyBusiness on Dec 23, 2009 7:35 PM CST up reply actions
Well, she shouldn't despair
Cubs still have Theriot, no? Isn’t he the other object of Cubbie womens’ desire?
by Not Bruce Froemming on Dec 23, 2009 8:25 PM CST up reply actions
I'm sure he thinks he is.
"I have the time and hatred but not the knowledge." ~Madison Cub Fan (Aug. 25, 2009)
Lilly first, then Theriot
A woman's guess is more accurate than a man's certainty.--Rudyard Kipling
by cooliogirl47 on Dec 23, 2009 11:14 PM CST up reply actions
Not the same as DeRosa
Probably the Penn education, college QB, NJ-boy thing.
One thing DeRosa and Theriot have in common – stand-up guys at the end of the day. Good game, bad game, stand up talk to the media, be a professional. Like their game or not, you have to respect them for that.
by RiskyBusiness on Dec 24, 2009 10:01 AM CST up reply actions
DeRosa would be like duct tape
he can plug the holes, but not really fix them right now.
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
the question is
could he hold a similar leadership role? While I think yes, two points to make are
a) The locker room is different now
b) Could he fill a leadership role without being a regular? Because if you are honest about it, if he came back, which I doubt, he wouldn’t be a regular. He’d play a dash here, a dash there, and be a bat off the bench type.
he fills the role of supersub
and would be too expensive for that role. Baker is better as a second baseman in the field, and likely his offense wont be much less, so DeRosa would not start at 2B. Our biggest hole right now is CF and lead off, two things DeRosa would not fill. It is time for so many to get over DeRosa and move on. 13 months of hearing about him is long enough.
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
by Cubbie-Tim on Dec 23, 2009 10:05 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
If we're going to spend money on a super-sub
can it please be one with plus defense at SS?
"We’re going to come back here next year healthy and do what we’re supposed to do, and we’re going to be all right. That’s not Hendry’s fault. He thought it was the right move. It didn’t work out. But at the same time, he’s the same guy that put back-to-back championship teams together." - Aramis Ramirez
honestly
I mentioned it in the other thread … but do we need a plus defense shortstop? If Lou isn’t going to replace Theriot late in the game, I half wonder on the need for Blanco. I’d rather try to find a person that can play 2nd/SS and has a lefty bat and … in my dreams … lead to dumping Fontenot (and shifting Blanco to AAA) allowing us more bench options.
good points DGU and toonsterwu
and I agree with both. Theriot is a good player (ducks SWL) but any supersub we go after needs to be able to play some SS and DeRosa amongst others cannot do that
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Wow...
The addiction that some people on this site have to Mark DeRosa has got to be stronger than heroin.
Mark DeRosa is not worth 8M a year under any circumstances. Stop living in the past, it’s time to move on.
I think I speak for everyone here when I say, "Wait, what the hell are you talking about?"
by Ross on Dec 23, 2009 10:10 PM CST reply actions 3 recs
REC'D
time for the DeRomantics to move on, its been 13 months and he is two teams removed from us
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
Ross, you are my hero
This really has gone beyond pathetic with some people.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Dec 24, 2009 1:37 AM CST up reply actions
but but...
Eric Hanna and FAN of the BULLS, the two greatest BCBers in the history of mankind
by jesus christos on Dec 24, 2009 2:50 AM CST up reply actions
But my heart...
… it YEARNS!
Dum spiro spero... | Follow me on twitter or else: @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Dec 24, 2009 9:53 AM CST up reply actions
ocer/under on DeRosa posts this season?
i say 7 for sentimental value
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
No thanks..
Not only does he not fit with how I’d personally like to see the 2010 team constructed, he doesn’t really fit what the Cubs want to do either. The Cubs would do well to instead find a LH middle infielder – one not named Fontenot – and using Baker in that DeRosa role; and at 10% of the cost, no less.
I'm still not sure why...
… you and others are so convinced that Baker is the next DeRosa. He’s got far less OF experience than DeRo, and didn’t play it at all last year.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
fair enough
We’re simply presuming that his past experience in the of, along with the cubs asking him to bring an of glove, means that he could be passable in filling corner of roles, but it’s possible he isn’t. Add in BAker being a better infielder than DeRosa, and yes, there are small differences. But in general, the idea is that he could fill those roles in a hypothetical
I'm not convinced either, but...
…assuming we sign/trade for a CF, the emergence of Fuld makes Baker’s proficiency in the outfield less of a factor.
I don’t think Fuld would be hurting the team if he saw more action than your usual 4th/5th late-inning defensive replacement OF. So give him more backup reps in the outfield and let Baker concentrate on 2B and backup reps at 3rd and 1st.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
I don't know...
Why I keep getting sucked into this, because you keep getting perfectly logical answers, and disregard them.
I’ve personally seen the man play in the outfield, and found him perfectly adequate. He’s played every position on the field while in the majors sans catcher and shortstop, including all of the corner spots. And the man spent all of 2006 in the minors playing the outfield.
Given that you can comfortably trot him out to four or five spots on the field without hesitation, how do you feel that’s it’s not a realistic comparison? Or better yet, what exactly is it that gives you pause?
by Damen Jackson on Dec 24, 2009 2:23 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
When did you see Baker play outfield?
He played no games there in 2009. He played three games there in 2008.
Mark DeRosa, OTOH, logged significant OF time in both 2005 and 2006, the years immediately before he came to the Cubs. You say that “you can comfortably trot [Baker] out to four or five spots on the field without hesitation”. Right now, I would NOT feel comfortable with him in the outfield, somewhere he hasn’t played much in three years. To me, he’s a decent second baseman and a fine 3B backup.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
He's probably referring to 2006 in the minors (where he made roughly 2/3 of his start there)
And the other 1/3 of his starts at 3B (which, coincidentally, is a position we’d need him to back up). That, or the 68 games he logged across all 3 positions from 2006-2008. Last year was the only year he didn’t see any time in the OF at all.
For what it’s worth, DeRosa had very little major league OF experience at the same age as Baker, and only in 2006 with Texas did he get any significant time there. He was 27 that year. Baker is 28 now.
I think expecting Baker to have the potential to be DeRosa-like defensive player for us is valid. Hopefully our coaches are doing their due diligence to verify that so we don’t get caught with our pants down when one of our starters gets hurt this year.
by madcow256 on Dec 24, 2009 4:47 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
rec'd
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
It's possible, I suppose.
But to expect it is, I think, incorrect.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I followed the Rockies...
a bit in ’07 when they were making their run. They were an awfully fun team to watch for awhile.
by Damen Jackson on Dec 24, 2009 5:48 PM CST up reply actions
Yes, they were.
I still don’t think you can expect Jeff Baker to be Mark DeRosa, part II.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
There's really no way to know for sure how a player will perform in a given role until you try it
In some cases, you get a Corey Patterson-esque flameout. In others, you are rewarded when a player like Marmol handles the closers spot with relative ease.
The signs point to Baker being able to back up 3B/1B/LF/RF in addition to 2B. I think most of us can agree that we’re comfortable with Baker backing up the corner infield positions. And we should be carrying 4-5 OFs such that we aren’t left empty handed if Soriano or Dome go down and Baker’s moderate success (in small samples, mind you) at those positions turns out to be a mirage.
4-5 outfielders
JAKE FOX WOULD OF BEEN A GOOD CHOICE, BUT WAIT HEADRY TRADED HIM. THAT HEADRY FOR YOU. AND YES I’M PISSED
"Headry"?
Anyway, a good choice for what, exactly? Fox can’t play 2B, and he’s mediocre at the other defensive positions. The Cubs needed to include him in the deal to get the A’s to take Aaron Miles’ contract, and they got a serviceable relief pitcher in return.
Save your “pissed” for something that’s worth getting pissed about. This isn’t one of those things.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Errors
show me fox’s errors………. then i might buy that he is meiocre which is more than I can say for Baker and Fontenot and Fox had a hell of a bat before the foul tip on his foot. wait and see what he does with the A’s. just another Headry trade.
Errors aren't the best way to analyze a fielder.
Fox can hit. He’s well suited to be a DH, but we’ll see how well he does.
FYI, it’s “Hendry”, not “Headry”.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
i think
youve been had
Eric Hanna and FAN of the BULLS, the two greatest BCBers in the history of mankind
by jesus christos on Dec 25, 2009 8:37 PM CST up reply actions
baker
how about jake fox, oh wait that idiot gm traded him. just like all of our good players. thats Headry for u
perhaps you mean
Ricky Headley?
or maybe Gleanne Headley:
or maybe you mean… THIS GUY!
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Dec 25, 2009 8:24 PM CST up reply actions
HENDRY
You know what I meant Hendry that dumbass of a gm of ours
it's pronounced
DUMAS.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Dec 25, 2009 11:01 PM CST up reply actions
FOX IS MEDIOCRE AT BEST
Get over it, he had no place on this team. Aaron Miles is gone. REJOICE
"If I were playing third base and my mother were rounding third with the run that was going to beat us, I'd trip her. Oh, I'd pick her up and brush her off and say, 'Sorry, Mom,' but nobody beats me." ~ Leo Durocher
by Musicdude10 on Dec 28, 2009 11:17 AM CST up reply actions
LAMAHhh
"If I were playing third base and my mother were rounding third with the run that was going to beat us, I'd trip her. Oh, I'd pick her up and brush her off and say, 'Sorry, Mom,' but nobody beats me." ~ Leo Durocher
by Musicdude10 on Dec 28, 2009 11:16 AM CST up reply actions
Rape, arson, murder, and rape
You said rape twice
I like rape
"If I were playing third base and my mother were rounding third with the run that was going to beat us, I'd trip her. Oh, I'd pick her up and brush her off and say, 'Sorry, Mom,' but nobody beats me." ~ Leo Durocher
by Musicdude10 on Dec 28, 2009 11:16 AM CST up reply actions
interesting
Eric Hanna and FAN of the BULLS, the two greatest BCBers in the history of mankind
by jesus christos on Dec 28, 2009 11:57 AM CST up reply actions
OK, even if that was a joke riff on a movie line....
… not funny nor acceptable here.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al Yellon on Dec 28, 2009 11:57 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Sorry
It’s from Blazing Saddles
"If I were playing third base and my mother were rounding third with the run that was going to beat us, I'd trip her. Oh, I'd pick her up and brush her off and say, 'Sorry, Mom,' but nobody beats me." ~ Leo Durocher
the giants
are offering 6 mill a year and he is considering it. we should jump on this. but if the cubs cry they cant afford reed then this wont happen.
I wasn't under the impression
that the problems with signing Reed Johnson are money related.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Dec 25, 2009 4:04 PM CST up reply actions
He's talking about two different things.
The $6m a year offer is for DeRosa. It has, as you note, nothing to do with Reed Johnson.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
sure but he says above
if the cubs cry they cant afford reed then this wont happen.
Suggesting that if they can’t afford RJ, they can’t afford DeRosa. And I said that I didn’t think the problem with RJ wasn’t financial.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Dec 25, 2009 8:25 PM CST up reply actions
derosa
they need to get derosa and send foneto back to the minors. further more is anyone irrate at the Jake Fox trade. Just another good player that Headry has traded away, he seems to be a pro at that. Now I understand why we haven’t made it to the world series in 100 yrs. one word HEADRY!!!!
Milton?
Is that you?
"I have the time and hatred but not the knowledge." ~Madison Cub Fan (Aug. 25, 2009)
safwan:
Asmaa:
or Tengok?
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Dec 25, 2009 8:27 PM CST up reply actions
I will take
Asmaa for $10,000 Alex…then Anal bum covers for $500
I saw you in that coffee shop, breaking the fifth commandment. Congress passes these things for a reason, Lois.
You're sitting on a gold mine Trebek
I’ve spent a pretty penn on devices like this before, I don’t mind tellin ya. But if the penis mightier really works, I’ll order a dozen!
Please for god sakes it’s HENDRY. If you’re going to insult the man, at least know his name. This is twice now in this thread that you’ve misspelled it
"If I were playing third base and my mother were rounding third with the run that was going to beat us, I'd trip her. Oh, I'd pick her up and brush her off and say, 'Sorry, Mom,' but nobody beats me." ~ Leo Durocher
by Musicdude10 on Dec 28, 2009 11:20 AM CST up reply actions
it seems
you are upset by the Jake Fox trade, I dunno where I am getting this anger from but I just sense it…
I saw you in that coffee shop, breaking the fifth commandment. Congress passes these things for a reason, Lois.
Mrs Fox have you joined BCB?
baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out
i did
see that in actual print.the cubs saying they could not afford to sign reed johnson. i think it was from our favorite carrie muskat. maybe now with bradley gone they will change their minds.
Muskat is to good info
As Aaron Miles is to good hitter
As Kamchaka is to good vodka
As Joe Morgan is to good color commentator
"If I were playing third base and my mother were rounding third with the run that was going to beat us, I'd trip her. Oh, I'd pick her up and brush her off and say, 'Sorry, Mom,' but nobody beats me." ~ Leo Durocher
by Musicdude10 on Dec 28, 2009 11:22 AM CST up reply actions
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