Questions: 1. should we bag the search for CF and look for 2B? 2. Rowand
by nickler on Dec 30, 2009 5:06 PM CST
Email
Print
Hello; thanks in advance for your input.
1. My big question is: should we halt the focus on finding a CF and look instead for a 2B?
I don't think many here believe that Fontenot and/or Baker are going to be the best options at 2B; in addition, neither fulfill the need for a lead off man that the team's offense needs.
Although finding a speedy, lead off CF would be ideal, there doesn't seem to be good option on the FA market. It would appear that we are somewhat holding off because the options aren't great and we want the prices on the Marlon Byrds and Rick Ankiels to go down. In addition, as it has been stated before, a combination of Fuld and Johnson may very well turn out to be just as good.
Since there is no ideal option at CF, why not just go with what we have at CF for now and focus on an area where there are good options and where we have a need. Again, it would be great if we could find an ideal SS on the FA market, but there isn't one that would likely much more productive than our current option. If this is so, why not focus on 2B since there seems to be a better option there.
Felipe Lopez is a FA; he is young, a good fielder, speedy, and has a great OBP. He also switch hits. He would seem to be an ideal candidate for the 2B position. This would also allow us to trade away Baker who likely is at his peak value given his great stats from last year. Baker is cost-controlled and I would think would be attractive to some teams with limited payrolls.
There were some people who absolutely hated him (Lopez) last year and who thought he was not a good addition; could you guys please expound as to why? Again, he would seem to be just what we are looking for.
Another option would be Orlando Hudson who similarly is a good fielder, speedy, and has a decent OBP.
I am sure there is a reason why there is no focus on 2B right now, but I can't see it. Again, I do realize that CF and SS are more "pressing" needs and that if there were decent FA options for these positions, that it would be appropraite to address those areas first . Given that there are not, why not go with what we have there and sign a better option at 2B, as opposed to signing an inferior option at CF and being stuck with them for a long time?
2. Would we be better off trading Alfonso Soriano for Aaron Rowand? It would fill a need for both teams. We are in need of a CF and we would get the CF we need. The Giants need a big bat to drive in runs and would get that.
I know there is a difference in cost, but Soriano is more of a difference maker, and we desperately need help in CF with no good FA options.
We might have to also acquire another "bad" contract such as trading Theriot for Renteria to make the $$ work out.
This is probably insane. Yet it intrigues me. Trading one bad contract for another, and filling needs for both teams.
Thanks again for your input. Again, if this is inane, please give me a few words as to why instead of just flaming. It is fine to flame me, but please help educate me in the process so I can understand.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
110 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Answer: no.
Jeff Baker is a perfectly good solution to 2B. There aren’t any really good 2B solutions — I feel the same way about Hudson & Lopez that I do about Marlon Byrd.
Soriano for Rowand? Call me when Brian Sabean stops laughing at you.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Thanks for your answers.
Just to follow up— not to be argumentative, but I am curious.
1. I agree that Baker is fine…I actually like him… but we have no lead off man. Therein lies the problem. For a team like the Indians who have Grady Sizemore, he’d be awesome. I bet they’d salivate for a nice, cost controlled player like him. But we are in desperate need of a leadoff man and there is a perfect option out there.
2. How is it that you feel like Lopez is like Byrd when Lopez’s numbers are:
310 .383 .427 .810
He is also only 29 years old and may be reaching his peak as opposed to 32 years old and likely to go downhill.
3. Why is it you think that Lopez will decline or not reproduce his numbers?
4. Why would Sabean laugh at getting rid of Rowand? His contract is TERRIBLE. The Mariner’s didn’t laugh when they traded Silva for Bradley and gave us money.
You yourself have mentioned that Soriano was the difference maker in 2007 and 2008; he could still be. The Giants have absolutely no slugging offense whatsoever. Rowand is nowhere near the offensive threat they need.
Soriano’s contract is similar to Rowand’s for 2010, 2011, and 2012 (Rowand’s terminates after 2012). As for 2013 and 2014, taking Renteria and giving up Theriot would give them a better player at SS and save them about $10 million for 2010. The difference would be about one year’s salary for Soriano, but they would be getting a cheap option at SS for a few more years.
Do you feel that Aaron Rowand is a better player than Soriano? If that is the case, then I guess the trade is laugh-worthy. Otherwise, I don’t see why.
Thanks again for your answers, seriously. I learn a lot from your responses and look forward to your responses to these additional questions.
Actually, we do have a leadoff man.
His name is Kosuke Fukudome.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
This has been your refrain - do you keep saying it because
1) you believe it is true
or
2) you want it to be true?
Because I’d like to see Kosuke left at #1 or #2, but I’m not convinced Lou is willing to do that.
"We’re going to come back here next year healthy and do what we’re supposed to do, and we’re going to be all right. That’s not Hendry’s fault. He thought it was the right move. It didn’t work out. But at the same time, he’s the same guy that put back-to-back championship teams together." - Aramis Ramirez
I want it to be true.
Maybe if I say it enough, someone will actually hear me. (That’d mean YOU, Lou.)
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I guess I should start listening....
(looks around with shifty eyes)
I never understood why Fuk was moved out of the leadoff. The team was good when he started there for those few weeks in the middle of the season. Then Theriot was moved there and we got no production from the top of the order
"If I were playing third base and my mother were rounding third with the run that was going to beat us, I'd trip her. Oh, I'd pick her up and brush her off and say, 'Sorry, Mom,' but nobody beats me." ~ Leo Durocher
because
Lou wanted to break up the lefties.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Dec 31, 2009 10:22 AM CST up reply actions
very snugly
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Dec 31, 2009 10:26 AM CST up reply actions
Rowand
Sabean will laugh because while Rowand’s contract is terrible, Soriano’s is down right freaking hideous. By the time that Soriano’s contract is over, it may rank up as one of the five or ten worst contracts of all time. Rowand is owed $12M a year for three more years. Soriano is owed $18M a year for five more years.
Rowand is not better than Soriano, however I think you’re underestimating how much more Soriano is owed.
I am not holding my breath waiting for this deal to happen
but you may be underestimating how desperate the Giants are for hitting. Right now DeRo is slotted to bat 3rd. If DeRo is batting 3rd for you, you have big problems offensively. They also have Rowand penciled in to bat 5th despite his awful year last year. If Sabean believes Soriano is healthy, this deal may not be as inconceivable as it looked at first glance. Then again if Soriano is healthy finally, why would the Cubs unload him?
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Dec 31, 2009 8:13 AM CST up reply actions
My two cents
1/2/3 I agree with Al in that Baker is a good option for 2B but at the same time Lopez would be a good addition to the team. I like Baker in the sub role. You can count me in the Fontenot fan club but I don’t see him sticking unless he can really learn 3B or 1B. I’m surprised there aren’t more people on here discussing Lopez.
4. Soriano’s contract is for more money and is longer than Rowand’s. The purpose of trading long contracts is to eliminate them. Trading Rowand would only get a longer and more bloated contract for a team without a ton of money
Rowand is not better than Soriano but the years, money, and injury risk don’t make the difference worth it
I’m sure the Mariners laughed when they got rid of Silva to be honest.
"If I were playing third base and my mother were rounding third with the run that was going to beat us, I'd trip her. Oh, I'd pick her up and brush her off and say, 'Sorry, Mom,' but nobody beats me." ~ Leo Durocher
I'm fine with Fuld and Johnson in CF as a platoon.
Not the optimum choice, but better than signing some of the other OF retreads available. And Fuld and Johnson are good “clubhouse guys” as well.
As for 2B, LBR and Baker are again, a passable platoon.
But Hendry isn’t done dealing and signing. I’ll reserve judgement until we clear ST and see what we come north with as a starting lineup.
Now only 12,859 on the "Cubs Season Tickets Waiting List"...
by Zeke on Dec 30, 2009 5:17 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
Rec'd for the last part
I think it’s too early in the offseason to be looking at guys like Rowand. You gotta just wait it out
Or do what I’m doing and harass Hendry at the Cubs convention. JIM! JIM!!! JACOBY ELLSBURY!! DO IT!! JIIIIIIM!!! WHY DID YOU MISS OUT ON GRANDERSON AND CAMERON!??! HEY! WHAT ABOUT FELIPE LOPEZ? OR PEAVY? OR LIIIIIIND?!?!?!!!
It’ll work. Just watch me :)
"If I were playing third base and my mother were rounding third with the run that was going to beat us, I'd trip her. Oh, I'd pick her up and brush her off and say, 'Sorry, Mom,' but nobody beats me." ~ Leo Durocher
my quick answers
a) I actually think Jeff Baker is the best available option. I don’t believe in Felipe Lopez being able to maintain his offensive performance. Hudson’s defense has gone downhill, and Baker’s bat is a bigger threat. Now, that said, I’m also aware that we need a leadoff hitter. If there is a leadoff 2nd base option out there, then I’m fine with Baker going to the bench, even if said player might not be as good as Baker.
b) I really don’t see the Giants doing a Soriano for Rowand swap unless we eat the remaining years and balance out the contract. Furthermore, I wouldn’t do it either.
Even if Hendry was to swoon and sign Lopez,
I doubt the Cubs could get something of value back higher than what Baker would bring to the bench. Cost controlled super subs don’t grow on trees. Free Agent ones (Figgens, DeRosa) are expensive.
at daver's request, Let's frontload this B**ch!
Here are the Bill James projections and the career 2B UZR/150s for the players you mention:
Orlando Hudson .280/.353/.409 Defense 2.6
Felipe Lopez .281/.352/.400 Defense 2.6
Mike Fontenot .273/.343/.415 Defense 10.4
Jeff Baker .280/.337/.460 Defense 2.3
Given that Lopez and Hudson are likely to cost double what both Baker and Fontenot will cost together, it seems to me that we should stick with what we’ve got, but keep our eye on those two to see if one will end up coming cheaply.
I also disagree that Jeff Baker is at his peak value. He needs to establish that he can keep hitting in greater playing time first.
"We’re going to come back here next year healthy and do what we’re supposed to do, and we’re going to be all right. That’s not Hendry’s fault. He thought it was the right move. It didn’t work out. But at the same time, he’s the same guy that put back-to-back championship teams together." - Aramis Ramirez
I'm ok with going with Baker and Fontenot at 2B
but you’re right about Baker. He’s never played in more than 104 games with a max of 333 ab’s.
"Enough foreplay- let's get crackin'"- Fred Garvin
No doubt the Cubs could do better but
I would be less worried about a Baker/Fontenot 2B platoon than Fuld in CF like so many here seem to be okay with.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Dec 31, 2009 11:56 AM CST up reply actions
True
Though given Marlon Byrd’s penchant for missing games (at least before last year), Fuld will probably see plenty of time in CF this year.
Fuld fits that role, 4th OF
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Jan 1, 2010 2:10 PM CST up reply actions
There's definitely doubt that the Cubs could do better than Baker.
There’s no doubt we could have a more certain production with someone other than Baker.
In other words – Baker’s got more upside than Orlando Hudson – but more downside, too.
"We’re going to come back here next year healthy and do what we’re supposed to do, and we’re going to be all right. That’s not Hendry’s fault. He thought it was the right move. It didn’t work out. But at the same time, he’s the same guy that put back-to-back championship teams together." - Aramis Ramirez
by DGU on Jan 1, 2010 5:00 PM CST up reply actions
To Al and everyone who responded-- Thanks so much for your answers.
Just to follow up— not to be argumentative, but I am curious.
1. I agree that Baker is fine…I actually like him… but we have no lead off man. Therein lies the problem. For a team like the Indians who have Grady Sizemore, he’d be awesome. I bet they’d salivate for a nice, cost controlled player like him. But we are in desperate need of a leadoff man and there is a perfect option out there.
2. How is it that you feel like Lopez is like Byrd when Lopez’s numbers are:
310 .383 .427 .810
He is also only 29 years old and may be reaching his peak as opposed to 32 years old and likely to go downhill.
3. Why is it you think that Lopez will decline or not reproduce his numbers?
4. Why would Sabean laugh at getting rid of Rowand? His contract is TERRIBLE. The Mariner’s didn’t laugh when they traded Silva for Bradley and gave us money.
You yourself have mentioned that Soriano was the difference maker in 2007 and 2008; he could still be. The Giants have absolutely no slugging offense whatsoever. Rowand is nowhere near the offensive threat they need.
Soriano’s contract is similar to Rowand’s for 2010, 2011, and 2012 (Rowand’s terminates after 2012). As for 2013 and 2014, taking Renteria and giving up Theriot would give them a better player at SS and save them about $10 million for 2010. The difference would be about one year’s salary for Soriano, but they would be getting a cheap option at SS for a few more years.
Do you feel that Aaron Rowand is a better player than Soriano? If that is the case, then I guess the trade is laugh-worthy. Otherwise, I don’t see why.
Thanks again for your answers, seriously. I learn a lot from your responses and look forward to your responses to these additional questions.
Just to finish the thought:
How could the Giants NOT want Soriano??
Here are their options in the OF—
Nate Schierholtz #12 RF
2009 STATS
BA HR RBI OBP SLG
.267 5 29 .302 .400
Fred Lewis #14 LF
2009 STATS
BA HR RBI OBP SLG
.258 4 20 .348 .390
Aaron Rowand #33 CF
2009 STATS
BA HR RBI OBP SLG
.261 15 64 .319 .419
Include DeRosa in there now.
"We’re going to come back here next year healthy and do what we’re supposed to do, and we’re going to be all right. That’s not Hendry’s fault. He thought it was the right move. It didn’t work out. But at the same time, he’s the same guy that put back-to-back championship teams together." - Aramis Ramirez
Absolutely.
But they might also need DeRosa at 3B.
They have holes at 3B, LF, RF with no power hitters. We have Ramirez, Lee, Soto. Again, not to be argumentative, bu thtey desperately need power. We desperately need a CF.
They may also be wary of the length of his contract, plus it is hard to have a lot of faith in a player coming off an injury year
Soriano still has 5 years and $90M left on his deal with the Cubs. Leaving aside the question of whether he can last through that in the best of circumstances, taking on that contract is a pretty serious leap of faith when he was impaired in 2009 due to injury and it is not yet certain whether he can come back fully.
The other question is whether the Cubs would really want Rowand, anyway. He is essentially the same age as Byrd, more expensive, and hasn’t really had a decent hitting year since he left Philly. If the Cubs are going to move Soriano for a CF, I would rather see them approach Boston about Ellsbury, since the Red Sox are currently shopping for a power hitting LF. Ellsbury’s power stats have been similar to Rowand’s the last 2 years, he’s younger, his OBP has been better, he has far fewer Ks (guys with low double digit HR totals should NOT pile up 120+ Ks/year). and he brings much more speed to an offense.
The problem with Soriano for Ellsbury is whether even the Red Sox would want Soriano.
In addition to the other reasons mentioned...
One of the rumored reasons the Giants aren’t trying to upgrade by increasing spending is that they know they have two massive pay increases upcoming next year (and the year after) for Timmy Lincecum and Matt Cain, respectively.
Because of that, it would stand to reason that they wouldn’t want to take on Soriano’s enormous contract if it’s going to preclude them from holding on to the two blue chip, young pitchers that are their future.
by CubsWin!Oregon on Dec 31, 2009 11:37 AM CST up reply actions
Just to finish the thought:
How could the Giants NOT want Soriano??
Here are their options in the OF—
Nate Schierholtz #12 RF
2009 STATS
BA HR RBI OBP SLG
.267 5 29 .302 .400
Fred Lewis #14 LF
2009 STATS
BA HR RBI OBP SLG
.258 4 20 .348 .390
Aaron Rowand #33 CF
2009 STATS
BA HR RBI OBP SLG
.261 15 64 .319 .419
The reason they wouldn't want Soriano
is the same reason you don’t want Soriano – his contract is big and onerous.
If they wanted Soriano, why not just sign Holliday? Maybe they’d consider trading Zito for Soriano since they have a surplus of pitchers.
"We’re going to come back here next year healthy and do what we’re supposed to do, and we’re going to be all right. That’s not Hendry’s fault. He thought it was the right move. It didn’t work out. But at the same time, he’s the same guy that put back-to-back championship teams together." - Aramis Ramirez
Understood.
But so is Rowand’s, and they desperately need offense.
They can’t just sign Holliday, since they are sitting on Rowand’s huge contract.
I don’t know if I’m right here, but would you agree that Soriano is a better player than Rowand? If not, then that pretty much settles it. But if you do, I would think the Giants would be dying to do this.
Rowand's deal is shorter and cheaper than Sori's.
I can see your point, but I think Sori’s uncertain health makes the Giants disinclined to do the deal this year.
"We’re going to come back here next year healthy and do what we’re supposed to do, and we’re going to be all right. That’s not Hendry’s fault. He thought it was the right move. It didn’t work out. But at the same time, he’s the same guy that put back-to-back championship teams together." - Aramis Ramirez
Or anyone for that matter
Soriano needs a good year this year. Not a great year, but a good year. Then he can be traded
"If I were playing third base and my mother were rounding third with the run that was going to beat us, I'd trip her. Oh, I'd pick her up and brush her off and say, 'Sorry, Mom,' but nobody beats me." ~ Leo Durocher
The Giants would never take this trade, but might be willing to part with Zito
Unless the Cubs eat most of Soriano’s contract, there is no way the Giants would trade rowand, a good defensive outfielder/clubhouse leader/average hitter for Soriano, a defensive liability/clubhouse cancer/slightly above average but declining hitter.
A better indicator of Soriano’s worth is Barry Zito. That would be a swap of equally bad contracts for equally marginally useful players.
So...
you would say Rowand is a better player than Soriano?
If so, that’s fine, I don’t know really. But their contracts up to 2012 are really quite similar and we could take another “bad” contract to make things work out.
Also...
1. I think Zito’s contract pays him much more than Soriano’s
2. We don’t need another pitcher.
Yes, Rowand is better overall than Soriano
And that’s why it would take the bigger Zito contract to balance the trade. Also, I disagree about the Cubs not needing another pitcher. Zito is still a perfectly viable 4th or 5th starter which the Cubs could use, it’s just his price tag that makes him untradeable. But if you factor in unloading an equally bad contract, you would probably get better production over the life of the contract out of Zito than you would get out of a declining Soriano.
Hmmm,
how exactly is Rowand better than Soriano?
As for getting more production from Zito than from Soriano, wow, just not seeing that. Zito is a flyball pitcher who struggles in the much more pitcher friendly AT&T Park … I would hate to see what he would do in Wrigley on a regular basis. Finally, both Zito and Soriano underperformed last year, but while Zito was healthy last year, Soriano was not. Based on that and assuming Soriano is healthy, your assertion that Zito would be more productive lacks much credibility IMO.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Dec 31, 2009 8:27 AM CST up reply actions
Agreed - If Soriano is healthy and can deliver
two more years of ..280 average and 30 HR seasons, his contract may be as bad, but he may actually give some production for the dollars versus Zito.
at daver's request, Let's frontload this B**ch!
Where's the evidence
that Soriano is a clubhouse cancer?
"We’re going to come back here next year healthy and do what we’re supposed to do, and we’re going to be all right. That’s not Hendry’s fault. He thought it was the right move. It didn’t work out. But at the same time, he’s the same guy that put back-to-back championship teams together." - Aramis Ramirez
His behavior with the Nationals
This is the guy who initially flat out refused to move from second base to left field, and went so far as to refuse to play.
Okay
I think that’s taking it a little far. I wouldn’t call him a clubhouse cancer due to that. He wasn’t told he was going to be moving positions when the trade was made, so he was caught off guard. He obviously came around to it and put up a solid year in Washington, with most indications being that he fit very well in the clubhouse here. (as a side note, keep in mind, many had thought his numbers would dive when he left Arlington for RFK, but they obviously didn’t).
Maybe selfish would be a more appropriate description than clubhouse cancer
The point is that Rowand is a leader known for always giving 100% despite his average overall talent, which makes him popular with his team mates.
A relevant fact here
is that Soriano was a better defensive 2B than Jose Vidro, the Nats’ incumbent. In 2006, Vidro was about as bad as you can get at 2B. So, I have a hard time being upset that Soriano was a little frustrated that he was traded the year before free agency, being asked to move from a prime defensive position to one he’d never played before. Not only did he stand to lose a lot of money by this move, it was not the best lineup for the 2006 Nationals. Why was Vidro starting at 2B, forcing Sori to LF, pushing Ryan Church to the bench?
"We’re going to come back here next year healthy and do what we’re supposed to do, and we’re going to be all right. That’s not Hendry’s fault. He thought it was the right move. It didn’t work out. But at the same time, he’s the same guy that put back-to-back championship teams together." - Aramis Ramirez
I'll second these Soriano stories
He is not a clubhouse cancer. The move was handled poorly. He found out in the press that he was being asked to move. Any player is going to be upset with moving positions. Once Soriano and the Nationals got on the same page, he went out and had a career year. The local press here reported that he was a popular player and friendly with the press. The Nationals wanted to resign him but obviously were not going to match the Cubs offer.
by rlpete on Dec 30, 2009 8:16 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I have a lot of reservations about Soriano...
(streaky hitter, defensively inept, etc.) …but anybody who calls him a “clubhouse cancer” simply doesn’t know what they’re talking about.
On the contrary, he’s known to be a very good clubhouse guy who’s well-liked and even something of a team leader. On more than one occasion, I’ve heard him being alluded to as a sort of “anti-Sosa” for just those reasons.
by bluekoolaide on Dec 30, 2009 8:29 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Exactly what I've heard as well
Say what you want about his performance on the field (I have and I know you all have too) but the guy always has a smile on his face and always says the right things. Furthermore, he knows he’s struggling and owns up to it. I respect him a lot for that
"If I were playing third base and my mother were rounding third with the run that was going to beat us, I'd trip her. Oh, I'd pick her up and brush her off and say, 'Sorry, Mom,' but nobody beats me." ~ Leo Durocher
I would have
a smile on my face like Sori if I was making 18 mil a year
Good point
Maybe if we had paid Bradley that much….
"If I were playing third base and my mother were rounding third with the run that was going to beat us, I'd trip her. Oh, I'd pick her up and brush her off and say, 'Sorry, Mom,' but nobody beats me." ~ Leo Durocher
I cannot abide Soriano's contract and
ask for the Cubs to offload his dollar commitment almost daily. However, I always concede I like the guy and agree when he’s on he can dominate a few weeks at a time.
at daver's request, Let's frontload this B**ch!
loosely defending the Nats on this one
2005, Soriano was horrible at 2nd, while, in a SSS, Vidro was decent. The hope, IIRC, had been that Vidro would finally be healthy again. Add in his status as a clubhouse leader at the time, and I can understand the move they made in that regards.
Soriano is not a clubhouse cancer.
While he is not the leader that Lou would like him to be, he has always been very popular with his teammates. Even the Nats players defended him as he struggled in LF because they liked him so much.
"I've never complained about it. I'm thankful to have a jersey." Mark DeRosa, 22 Aug 2007
While I understand why the Giants would love to unload Zito on someone ... anyone,
why would the Cubs want him??? Soriano is more likely to help the Cubs win than Zito is.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Dec 31, 2009 8:20 AM CST up reply actions
I think people are just excited at the possibility of getting rid of Soriano
I think you have to keep him and see if he can stay healthy again
"If I were playing third base and my mother were rounding third with the run that was going to beat us, I'd trip her. Oh, I'd pick her up and brush her off and say, 'Sorry, Mom,' but nobody beats me." ~ Leo Durocher
Agreed keeping Soriano makes more sense
because you are not likely to get much in return. If he is healthy, he can still put up good numbers.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Dec 31, 2009 12:01 PM CST up reply actions
Exactly
"If I were playing third base and my mother were rounding third with the run that was going to beat us, I'd trip her. Oh, I'd pick her up and brush her off and say, 'Sorry, Mom,' but nobody beats me." ~ Leo Durocher
No
Because we’re not going to find a better 2B than Jeff Baker for a one year contract.
You call Lopez young, but he’s going to be 30 in May. I disagree that he’s a solid glove. His range stats are only average and his error totals are ridiculous—he made a record 17 errors last season at second. His offensive production is inconsistent.
Hudson was a great glove, but he’s slipped a notch and is now only a good glove. His bat slumped terribly the second half last season and he was benched for Ron Belliard.
Starlin Castro will be ready soon, and that means Theriot is going to be our new 2B. You go into this season with Baker as your stating 2B. If by May or June and he’s not cutting it, you check to see if Castro is ready or you make a trade from a non-contender. The last thing you want to do is commit yourself to an expensive, veteran second baseman who may not even be better than what we already have.
It wouldn't surprise me...
… to see Baker as the 2B going forward, and Theriot either traded or made a backup.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
May it be!
"We’re going to come back here next year healthy and do what we’re supposed to do, and we’re going to be all right. That’s not Hendry’s fault. He thought it was the right move. It didn’t work out. But at the same time, he’s the same guy that put back-to-back championship teams together." - Aramis Ramirez
Small sample size...
…but I liked what I saw of Baker last season and I’m interested in seeing what he can contribute on an everday basis.
As for Starlin Castro, I haven’t been this excited about a Cubs prospect since Ronnie Cedeno.
by bluekoolaide on Dec 30, 2009 8:32 PM CST up reply actions
You don't think Theriot would be an excellent 2B?
I always felt he was ideally suited for it, and that his current value isn’t quite as high because he’s playing more or less out of position.
by CubsWin!Oregon on Dec 31, 2009 12:26 PM CST up reply actions
excellent?
No, he is not an excellent hitter even for a 2B, and he sure is not an excellent fielder, but he would be good enough. One thing, I would rather see him playing 2b than SS.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Dec 31, 2009 1:33 PM CST up reply actions
It's not worth rehashing the debate, but...
he’s above average defensively at SS. (based on UZR).
And while it’s become less true in recent years, 2B is not normally a position where a team requiers a huge hitter.
by CubsWin!Oregon on Dec 31, 2009 3:56 PM CST up reply actions
Defensively, Theriot would do well at 2B.
Offensively, he doesn’t have the bat for it. I wouldn’t play Theriot ahead of Fontenot or Baker at 2B.
"We’re going to come back here next year healthy and do what we’re supposed to do, and we’re going to be all right. That’s not Hendry’s fault. He thought it was the right move. It didn’t work out. But at the same time, he’s the same guy that put back-to-back championship teams together." - Aramis Ramirez
by DGU on Jan 1, 2010 5:13 PM CST up reply actions
Theriot will be a trade piece for Jacoby Ellsbury
Write it down. The Red Sox need a SS and we need a CF. Perfect. Both aren’t hugely liked by their fan bases and are good options. Not all stars but not “Oh god!” options either.
"If I were playing third base and my mother were rounding third with the run that was going to beat us, I'd trip her. Oh, I'd pick her up and brush her off and say, 'Sorry, Mom,' but nobody beats me." ~ Leo Durocher
um
Red Sox signed their theriot – Marco Scutaro. They also have Jose Iglesias in the minors who has, by some accounts, a ready glove (so if Boston can shore up the offense enough, and the offense has holes right now, they might call Iglesias up in 2011 … although it’s possible they just play out the Scutaro string and call Iglesias up in 2012 and give his bat more development time).
Dang, completely forgot about Scutaro
Iglesias is a year or two away though from everything I’ve read. I’d be surprised to see him get a September call up.
"If I were playing third base and my mother were rounding third with the run that was going to beat us, I'd trip her. Oh, I'd pick her up and brush her off and say, 'Sorry, Mom,' but nobody beats me." ~ Leo Durocher
Iglesias
I don’t think he’s going to get a September call-up. I think they might ponder him for 2011, dependent upon
a) If they can shore up the offense enough
b) How Scutaro performs
And what they do next offseason
I don’t think the Red Sox will do much this year. I think the team to beat is still the Yankees and the Rays are a better team. The Sox might slide in as the wild card but I like the Mariners better than them
"If I were playing third base and my mother were rounding third with the run that was going to beat us, I'd trip her. Oh, I'd pick her up and brush her off and say, 'Sorry, Mom,' but nobody beats me." ~ Leo Durocher
by Musicdude10 on Dec 31, 2009 10:08 AM CST up reply actions
well
as a ridiculously early guess, holding the right to change my mind real soon, I’d go
AL East – Yankees, Red Sox, Rays, Orioles, Blue Jays. I’m not sure that the Rays have enough of a lineup 1-9, whereas, while the Sox lineup doesn’t have the tremendous middle of the order guess anymore, it’s still rather deep. I like the Sox pitching better, rotation and pen.
AL Central – Twins, White Sox, Tigers, Indians, Royals
AL West – Mariners, Rangers, Angels, Athletics
Wildcard: Red Sox or Rangers
NL East – Philadelphia, Florida, NY Mets, Atlanta, Washington
NL Central – St. Louis, Chicago, Houston, Milwaukee, Cincinnati, Pittsburgh
NL West – Los Angeles Dodgers (for all the talk about a big firesale … I’ll believe it when it actually happens .. I wouldn’t be surprised if they let Colleti keep close to the same payroll as last year, which might save Torre’s final year there), Colorado Rockies, San Francisco Giants, Arizona Diamondbacks, San Diego Padres
NL Wildcard: Marlins or Rockies
Anyhow, ridiculously early guesses. If I were to make a stab at a sleeper time, I might guess Arizona. IF their youngsters can put it together, IF they can stay healthy, add in a bit of luck, and this team could surprise.
I like your predictions
Personally, it’s too early for me to make my own. I think you have the Giants too low though.
The Sox are missing that swagger they had in ‘07. Maybe it’s because Ortiz/Ramirez aren’t as feared or they aren’t hitting back to back anymore. Those players are hard to come by though. I think they’d be wise to go out and get Holliday
"If I were playing third base and my mother were rounding third with the run that was going to beat us, I'd trip her. Oh, I'd pick her up and brush her off and say, 'Sorry, Mom,' but nobody beats me." ~ Leo Durocher
Wow.
So it is the opinion of most people here that:
1. Soriano is less valuable than Jason Bay
2. Soriano is less valuable than Aaron Rowand.
This may be true, but all I can say is wow. That’s paying an awful lot for someone who is not very good.
I guess when BLou starts going off on Soriano, you all can’t be too critical of him. You may be less obnoxious about it, but it would seem that you all would agree that he is not worth much…
The Bay comment
came from a prior post of mine where I wondered if the Mets would want Soriano instead of Bay and people mentioned that Bay was more valuable even if being given a huge 5-year contract.
JMO
If money were no factor, I would take Sori over either Bay or Rowand. Bay’s defense is very poor (though he does catch what he gets to, unlike Sori), and Rowand’s defense has slipped a bit in the last couple of years. Sori (assuming he is healthy) is a much more dynamic offensive presence than either of them.
Since money is most definitely a factor, Rowand’s contract is shorter than Sori’s, and Bay’s will be for less money over the next four years. That is what diminishes Sori’s value.
"I've never complained about it. I'm thankful to have a jersey." Mark DeRosa, 22 Aug 2007
Agreed -
Sori’s a good player and worth more than Bay and Rowand. It’s the contract that’s a problem because few teams want to be tied in to such high-value long-term deals for someone with limited defensive value.
"We’re going to come back here next year healthy and do what we’re supposed to do, and we’re going to be all right. That’s not Hendry’s fault. He thought it was the right move. It didn’t work out. But at the same time, he’s the same guy that put back-to-back championship teams together." - Aramis Ramirez
The biggest knock on Felipe Lopez is his attitude.
He refused to play SS in Cincinnati, so they dealt him to the Nats. He did play some SS in DC (poorly), but apparently refused to do any extra fielding work with the coaches. His work ethic has been questioned by several managers, and he has admitted in interviews that he doesn’t play hard toward the end of the season if his team is down in the standings.
While he is a good offensive player, that isn’t exactly the type of player that Lou deals with very well. TLR decided last off-season that he would rather turn Skip Schumaker into a 2B than to bring Lopez back. ’Nuff said.
"I've never complained about it. I'm thankful to have a jersey." Mark DeRosa, 22 Aug 2007
by DeRoMyHero on Dec 30, 2009 10:36 PM CST reply actions 3 recs
Turn it green.
I want no part of Lopez or Hudson. Enough of throwing money at thirtysomething free agents.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al Yellon on Dec 31, 2009 8:44 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
"Enough of throwing money at thirtysomething free agents"
That’s the green worthy sentiment. rec’d
at daver's request, Let's frontload this B**ch!
Will that include Aramis Ramirez next year?
"We’re going to come back here next year healthy and do what we’re supposed to do, and we’re going to be all right. That’s not Hendry’s fault. He thought it was the right move. It didn’t work out. But at the same time, he’s the same guy that put back-to-back championship teams together." - Aramis Ramirez
by DGU on Jan 1, 2010 5:14 PM CST up reply actions
Nickler...look at the math
You keep coming back to comparing Soriano to Rowand and the swap of contracts. The differences are extremely significant and while Rowand’s contract weighs of a team, Soriano’s is a total albatross. Rowand is owed $36M over the next three years while Soriano is owed $90M. Even over the next three years, the $6M difference per season is not insignificant.
agreed
it isn’t only their values as players (soriano vs. rowand) that we are discussing. If it were simply that (and money wasn’t a factor), I think Sabean would make the deal. While the difference in the next three years isn’t much, the overall weight of the deal is a hindrance on Soriano’s value. As for Soriano vs. Bay, well both are overpaid right now, but at least in Bay’s case, he produced last year so you can somewhat understand why some would suggest Bay holds mroe value at the moment.
Look, if the Cubs balanced out most of the Soriano difference with Rowand, I think the Giants would ponder it. That is, if the Cubs forked over the difference the next 3 years and paid most, if not all, of the final money difference. It’s going to take that much. Call the next 3 years a wash if you want. No one is going to want to pay Soriano 18 mil for the final 2 years at that age. Add in that Soriano’s value is at a low right now. While we can assume Soriano will rebound, it isn’t a certainty, and Sabean can point to this problems this year as a reason why he shouldn’t pay for the final 2 years.
On the Cubs side, it wouldn’t make that much sense to fork over that much money for Rowand. Rowand’s bat and glove are declining, whereas you can hope a healthy Soriano becomes more useful. Rowand’s defense has been average the last 2 years, and his bat doesn’t offer that much anymore. It’s just not a trade that makes that much sense for the Cubs. The only reason Rowand even gathered some steam early was because some wanted to swap him for Milton Bradley (I didn’t, though).
Yes and No
I agree it’s preferable to focus on the attainable (2B upgrade) than the unattainable (CF with plus defense who can lead off and run the bases).
In spite of his horrible contract, I would never entertain trading Soriano at this point. His trade value has nowhere to go except up. Assuming he comes back healthy, and there’s no reason to think he won’t, I can see him putting up 2008 numbers for the next couple years. If he does come back strong in 2010, I’d look to trade him. While we’d still need to eat some contract or accept another lousy one, I believe it would not be as one-sided as it would if we traded him today. He’d have more value then and the receiving team would be paying him $18 less than if they got him today.
by CubbieFaninOhio on Dec 31, 2009 7:38 AM CST reply actions
Well...
We are in need of a CF and we would get the CF we need.
No team is going to want Soriano because Soriano is not wanted by any team
I’d like to see Rowand in Cubbie blue but I just don’t see it happening for Rowand. Also, who would we put in LF if we traded Soriano? Unless the team ate about 50% of his contract, Soriano is staying put
"If I were playing third base and my mother were rounding third with the run that was going to beat us, I'd trip her. Oh, I'd pick her up and brush her off and say, 'Sorry, Mom,' but nobody beats me." ~ Leo Durocher
Baker is at least serviceable at 2B
We don’t have a CF at this point. Given Baker’s contract and how he played at the end of 2009, he’s a decent option. Another 2B would cost more money and wouldn’t provide much more production. Of course, Baker could be a flop, but at least he’d be a cheap flop.
We need a CF now. Sam Fuld just isn’t a really viable option. The options out there aren’t all that appetizing, but they are upgrades over what we have.
As for Sori for Rowand, I think there are only two players who Sori could be traded for; Zito (maybe) and Vernon Wells (likely). Sori is going to be 34 in a week. He’s coming off a injury plagued year, which may or may not have caused his poor performance. There is a very good chance his best days are behind him and his performance in the seasons ahead won’t be all that much better than 2009s. And of course, there’s also his contract.
In a 1 for 1, Zito and Wells are possible.
I’d rather the Cubs eat 50% of the remaining contract and trade him for something useful.
Freeing up the salary has more benefit than swapping problems.
at daver's request, Let's frontload this B**ch!
I'd much rather have a Zito problem than a Soriano problem.
Randy Wells. A product of the Roy Halladay School of Pitching, located in Toronto, Canada. Possible relocation.
Zito sucks and now makes more than Soriano.
At least with the expectation of health, Soriano might add something the next two years. Swapping Soriano for Zito replaces a possible RBI guy with a #5/#6 starter. What’s the gain?
at daver's request, Let's frontload this B**ch!
good grief why?
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Dec 31, 2009 11:22 AM CST up reply actions
Not many teams would take Sori
Sori is a DH at this point in his career, so I think only an AL team would be interested. And of course, how much money would the Cubs have to give up. At this point, I don’t think trading Sori is a good option. His trade value, even if most of his contract is eaten by the Cubs, is pretty low. It can’t get that much lower, but it could rise based on better performance. Of course, if his trade value rises, few will then want to trade him.
by JimAnchower on Dec 31, 2009 10:46 AM CST up reply actions
you can't trade Sori now
coming off an injury plagued year, his value is probably as low as it’s ever been. Let’s see what he can do healthy.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Dec 31, 2009 10:49 AM CST up reply actions
Rajai Davis
In my opinion he is the best available option for a CF.
.305/.360/.423
41/12 SB/CS
27 2B
5 3B
11.9 UZR in CF
2.6 WAR
Randy Wells. A product of the Roy Halladay School of Pitching, located in Toronto, Canada. Possible relocation.
except,
there’s no indication that he’s available. Beane’s been pushing defense for awhile, and he might love the idea of Davis/Sweeney/Crisp in the OF. A bit limited offensively, but could be a superb defensive OF.
Then what about Hairston?
Does he become the 4th man? Also, wouldn’t they be needing to clear a spot for Michael Taylor who they just acquired?
Hairston is the odd man out
in Oakland, unfortunately he is nowhere near as interesting for the Cubs.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Dec 31, 2009 11:26 AM CST up reply actions
I'd have some mild interest in Hairston
as a bench player, someone who could provide some pop.
Yep
Bring him in to complement our current crop.
"We’re going to come back here next year healthy and do what we’re supposed to do, and we’re going to be all right. That’s not Hendry’s fault. He thought it was the right move. It didn’t work out. But at the same time, he’s the same guy that put back-to-back championship teams together." - Aramis Ramirez
by DGU on Jan 1, 2010 5:15 PM CST up reply actions
Beanes has said exactly that already
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Dec 31, 2009 11:25 AM CST up reply actions
why assume he is available?
I am sure Beane would trade Davis if the price is right, but getting Crisp does not mean the A’s are looking to deal Davis. Beane says he likes the idea of Davis in LF, Crisp in CF and Sweeney in RF. If I was a pitcher for the A’s I would like that outfield, too.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Dec 31, 2009 11:25 AM CST up reply actions
"Baker is cost-controlled and I would think would be attractive to some teams with limited payrolls."
Like the Cubs?
DEJESUS!!!
by tomas21 on Dec 31, 2009 11:51 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
Where's Rondell White............
…………when you need him?
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
But in your heart, Nickler, he'll...........
…….play forever!
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
FanShots
Quick hits of video, photos, quotes, chats, links and lists that you find around the web.
Recommended FanShots
Recent FanShots
Cubs By The Numbers
Cubs By The Numbers is a history of the ballclub by uniform number, but the biographies help trace the history of our beloved team in a new way. For everyone who's a Cubs fan, anyone who ever wore the uniform is like family. Cubs By The Numbers reintroduces readers to some of their long-lost ancestors, even ones they think they already know.
Click here to order your copy, available now!
Recent Stories in Chicago Cubs Game Threads
Recent Stories in Ticket Exchanges
Baseball Nation Recent Stories
In Association With
Big League Stew - MLB - Yahoo! Sports
- College player makes impossible over the fence catch to save tournament game (Video)
- Security!: Camden Yards guard collides with Royals’ Mike Moustakas
- The Juice: Nelson Cruz matches career high eight RBIs, Pujols stays hot in Seattle
- Benches clear at Fenway as Red Sox-Rays rivalry heats up
- Keeping good company: Albert Pujols becomes fourth-youngest player to hit 450 home runs
