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Around SBN: 2011 In Extreme Home Runs

Per Peter Gammons in the "Winter Meetings Live" thread on ESPN.com. Scroll to near the bottom and you should see it. Personally, I think Starlin Castro should be virtually untouchable.

about 2 years ago 106_0610_tiny CubbyBlues 106 comments 0 recs  | 

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I don't think anyone should be "untouchable"

especially unproven prospects in this particular farm system. It would be one thing if he was being traded for a guy at the end of his career, but Granderson is still young, and could be a Cub for quite a while.

I’ve grown very tired of the “untouchable” prospects that are traded four years later at the very bottom of their value

"Oh Crap"
-Famous Last Words by General George Custer

by BoVandy on Dec 7, 2009 4:56 PM CST reply actions  

Amen

We gotta go for it now, theres more a chance this kid flames out like the rest of our prospects, Granderson can help us now

Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.

by bren on Dec 7, 2009 6:46 PM CST up reply actions  

+2

baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out

by Cubbie-Tim on Dec 7, 2009 9:50 PM CST up reply actions  

If I had a nickle for every untouchable Cub prospect that didnt pan out I’d be rich. Castro had a hot 3 weeks in the Arizona Fall League. You are much better off with Granderson in CF and Theriot at SS then Mike Cameron in CF and Castro at short. I’d do this trade in a heartbeat.

by Keith Moreland on Dec 8, 2009 11:05 AM CST up reply actions  

I have my doubts that he'd have as much hype

Largely because, potential middle of the order bats get more hype, and Castro has more middle of the order potential than Lee. Lee profiles, as of now, strictly as a top of the order guy if he develops, IMO. You’d have to really rework the swing, and I don’t think the Cubs want to do that.

by toonsterwu on Dec 8, 2009 1:01 PM CST up reply actions  

I'm usually against untouchable prospects!

With that being said Castro is the exception! Solid ML SS’s are near impossible to find! Now of they want Vitters and any other combination of prospects-I’m all for it!

I would sleep with Blou if it meant the Cubs would win a WS. by Doggie Stalker on Aug 22, 2009 4:11 PM EDT

by cubsluver22 on Dec 7, 2009 5:13 PM CST reply actions  

Gotta agree

With cubslover22 … and keep Vitters .. MAYBE Vitters will pan out at third .

by CUBFANINAZ on Dec 7, 2009 5:59 PM CST up reply actions  

No thanks

Granderson is goot but not great. Castro fills an ESSENTIAL need for the Cubs in the future. If they wanted the prospect at another position maybe but I am willing to role the dice on this and just say no.

"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim

by Doggie Stalker on Dec 7, 2009 5:14 PM CST reply actions  

How can he be essential when hes a completely unproven commodity?

He wont be any good for us till when, 2012, 2013? Granderson is an immediate upgrade in our OF and provides decent power from the leftside of the plate and the ability to steal bases.

Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.

by bren on Dec 7, 2009 6:47 PM CST up reply actions  

See the Juan Pierre deal for an explination.

"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim

by Doggie Stalker on Dec 7, 2009 7:38 PM CST up reply actions  

I think Granderson is a bit better than Pierre

thats not really a fair comparison at all, and a power pitcher like Nolasco wouldve brought more immediate results than a 19 yr old shortstop, so Im not buying your comparison

Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.

by bren on Dec 7, 2009 7:44 PM CST up reply actions  

On paper Pierre was just what the Cubs wanted

just didn’t turn out. Castro has much more value than Nolesco but to be fair the Cubs gave up 3 pitchers for Pierre who was a rent a player.

"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim

by Doggie Stalker on Dec 7, 2009 7:47 PM CST up reply actions  

I dont think he does

Nolasco was of more immediate help, whereas Castro is a few years away from being competitive.

Prospects are also valuable as trading chips to help a team win in the short term, which exactly where we are, a slick fielding SS wont make a bit of difference to the 2012 Chicago Cubs b/c its looking pretty bleak, we have to go for it now

Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.

by bren on Dec 7, 2009 7:52 PM CST up reply actions  

Castro is a year away for sure

but 2011 is possible. I don’t trade a top SS prospect for a platoon player especially when there are other viable options.

"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim

by Doggie Stalker on Dec 7, 2009 7:55 PM CST up reply actions  

One year away

but how many away from being even remotely the player many seem to think he’ll be. And Granderson may not be able to hit lefties, but again, how many do we face on a regular basis?

CF is a thin position as well, so we’d be getting one of the upper tier at that position in the prime of his career, and one can expect his numbers might be better in a more friendly park

Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.

by bren on Dec 7, 2009 9:05 PM CST up reply actions  

And away from the American League

which never hurts batters it seems.

"It's been my policy to view the Internet not as an 'information highway,' but as an electronic asylum filled with babbling loonies." - Mike Royko

by DTJchris on Dec 7, 2009 9:07 PM CST up reply actions  

welll nevertheless

Wrigley can be more hitter hospitable than Comerica, that was my basic premise

Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.

by bren on Dec 7, 2009 9:16 PM CST up reply actions  

I was just trying to strengthen your argument

I was in agreement with you, but adding my point about AL pitching to boot.

"It's been my policy to view the Internet not as an 'information highway,' but as an electronic asylum filled with babbling loonies." - Mike Royko

by DTJchris on Dec 7, 2009 9:22 PM CST up reply actions  

Well he's the only player thats got me remotely excited

this offseason. I dont expect him to be Willie Mays, but he would solve a lot of problems, and I would certainly do what it takes, within reason, to get him. I guess I happen to see Castro as within reason, where clearly the majority do not.

So what else could they want? Cashner? One of the Jacksons?

Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.

by bren on Dec 7, 2009 9:27 PM CST up reply actions  

I'm probably in the minority as well

I would hate to see Castro go but Granderson would be one of the few “available” players out there in which a trade involving Castro would not be that painful.

Besides the fact the that Granderson is a good player, he seems like the anti-Bradley and is a great teammate and ambassador for the game, which is always very good thing.

And yes, he would solve lots of problems at the same time.

"It's been my policy to view the Internet not as an 'information highway,' but as an electronic asylum filled with babbling loonies." - Mike Royko

by DTJchris on Dec 7, 2009 9:32 PM CST up reply actions  

Why are the 2012 Cubs bleak?

Cub revenues aren’t going to shrink. According to Cot’s, the Cubs have about $66M of contracts for 2012: Z will be in his last year (vesting option for 2013), Dempster’s last year (player option for 2012), Soriano (thru 2014), ARam (player option for 2011, club for 2012), Samardzija (club option). That’s a lot of money for five guys (though three of those five could be gone).

So we should be able to make some acquisitions along with obviously filling out the roster. The Cubs farm system seems to be growing in strength.

I’m not debating whether we should deal particular prospects. I just don’t see a doomsday scenario for 2012 where we should empty the farm system now, damn the consequences.

by fsuapollo on Dec 7, 2009 9:48 PM CST up reply actions  

Please stop...

The Pierre deal is like comparing apples and hand grenades. Not only was Pierre on his best day not as talented as Granderson, but the Cubs only would have him under contract for one season. One. Couple that with the fact that those pitchers were near major league ready — Castro isn’t — and it’s simply a silly comparison.

If you’d prefer that the Cubs keep Castro, then fine. But this is really a hell of an overstated argument for it.

by Damen Jackson on Dec 7, 2009 10:30 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

Not a valid comparison

Granderson is actually a good centerfielder and can throw a baseball – Pierre’s picture is in the dictionary next to the term “rag arm.” And despite his lower BA, Granderson’s OBP is better. I also don’t recall Juan Pierre ever hitting 30 home runs in a year (or series of years, for that matter). Finally, Granderson is under contract for several more years.

Not saying that trading Castro is the thing to do, but Granderson is definitely an upgrade in CF over anyone the Cubs have had in years.

by ClarkFan on Dec 8, 2009 11:34 AM CST up reply actions  

Gammons is not the reliable source he once was

he seems to pull a lot out his ass nowadays.

"It's been my policy to view the Internet not as an 'information highway,' but as an electronic asylum filled with babbling loonies." - Mike Royko

by DTJchris on Dec 7, 2009 5:27 PM CST up reply actions  

Agreed.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Dec 7, 2009 6:35 PM CST up reply actions  

meh...boooh Wittenmeyer

why does he have to turn down so many trade rumors?

Wrigley Bound in the Summer of 2010

by Chanman25 on Dec 7, 2009 5:37 PM CST up reply actions  

What a F__ing joke

Granderson is NOT worth Castro. Do NOT trade someone with that much potential for someone that has shown in his time in Detroit that he has a limited amount of it.

If Hendry did this, I’d be shocked – too many holes in Granderson’s game to give up that much for him.

Scott Bora$ is satan.

by Canadian Cubs Fan on Dec 7, 2009 6:00 PM CST reply actions  

Well ive argued against this on here this week

But there arent a ton of lefty starters in our division (off the top of my head anyway) and he can hit for power and run. Castro is just the name of the moment, besides, who do we have in the minors tearing it up in CF anyway? Hak Ju Lee is every bit as intriguing as Castro

Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.

by bren on Dec 7, 2009 6:51 PM CST up reply actions  

Hanley Ramirez

I bet Red Sox fans said the same thing when they dealt him and 2 others to the Fish for Beckett and Lowell. Sure it worked out for Boston, but Hanley is one of the top 3 or 4 players in baseball.

Am I saying Castro is the next Ramirez? No, but I’d hate to find out that he is…too late.

Scott Bora$ is satan.

by Canadian Cubs Fan on Dec 7, 2009 8:47 PM CST up reply actions  

actually I think the Red Sox fans knew how good Ramirez was

Management did but it was one those deals where both sides got exactly what they needed.

"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim

by Doggie Stalker on Dec 7, 2009 8:49 PM CST up reply actions  

And we're in a better position than the Sox

with more SS talent coming up in the farm besides Castro. I really want to hold Castro, but I’d need to see who the two other minor leaguers were before saying absolutely you couldn’t do this trade.

Is he traded yet?

by DGU on Dec 7, 2009 9:00 PM CST up reply actions  

Agree - the Cubs really, really, really need a center fielder

And Cameron is at best a fill-in option.

Potential is, well, potential, not actual MLB-level peformance. Especially for a 19 year old who still hasn’t even seen AAA pitching.

by ClarkFan on Dec 8, 2009 11:38 AM CST up reply actions  

Wow thats absurd

Castro and Ramirez arent even in the same universe, in terms of ability or even raw potential at similar points in their career.

And Im sure many Sox fans would do that trade all over again, a WS is far more important. Sure Ramirez is awesome, but how many rings will he bring to Miami? None.

Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.

by bren on Dec 7, 2009 9:06 PM CST up reply actions  

Never count out the Fish

They always surprise.

"It's been my policy to view the Internet not as an 'information highway,' but as an electronic asylum filled with babbling loonies." - Mike Royko

by DTJchris on Dec 7, 2009 9:08 PM CST up reply actions  

to be fair

you can’t really make a definitive statement to compare the two at similar points in their career because

if you go by age, Hanley Ramirez at age 19 hit .275/.327/.403 in low A. In fact, if you go by this 2003 scouting report on Hanley Ramirez from Baseball America, there really isn’t a difference between the two at the same age. Actually, the scouting reports are fairly similar, except that Castro isn’t up there swinging for the fences at age 19, and that Castro doesn’t have the off-field concerns that Hanley had.

Will Castro reach similar ceilings? It wouldn’t be fair to Castro to compare him to one of the elite players in the game. That said, on ability and raw potential, there’s a fairly valid case that at the same age in their careers, CAstro is ahead of Hanley. Keep in mind that, if you want to assess them at the same stages in their minor league careers, that Hanley really had stopped progressing, and that was the key reason why the Red Sox were willing to deal him. They knew he was talented, but he struggled to really put it together, and as such, the Red Sox were open to the move. I don’t think anyone is projecting the slugging numbers that Hanley put up the last 3 years … but then again, no one predicted that mid-.500 slugging.

by toonsterwu on Dec 7, 2009 9:16 PM CST up reply actions  

Good luck with that

I dont care how good Ramirez is, the Red Sox made the right move b/c their team was built to win and they spend largely and smartly to augment their core….the Cubs do not.

Fact is this team is going to hit the skids big time in the next 2 years or so, so what are we waiting for? So Castro can be a top 5 SS on a mediocre team? What good is that?

Sure Id like to keep him, but I dont think Hendrys got that kind of bargaining ability. And if youre willing to believe Castro can be close to Ramirez’s level at some point, why cant you believe Hak Ju Lee can be at the same point as Castro in the near future, their nearly identical in terms of stature and Lee has been as widely heralded as Castro has

Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.

by bren on Dec 7, 2009 9:24 PM CST up reply actions  

no doubt the Red Sox made the right move

I’m simply pointing out that your comment above, about how they aren’t in the same universe in terms of ability and raw potential at similar points in their career, is quite debatable. Some power projections for Castro right now, high end, put him as a .480-.500 SLG type as well. The scouting report is a bit cleaner for Castro than it was for Hanley at the same time, and at the same age, Starlin was at a higher level.

by toonsterwu on Dec 7, 2009 9:29 PM CST up reply actions  

Fair enough

Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.

by bren on Dec 7, 2009 9:43 PM CST up reply actions  

btw, one point to add

if someone came to the Cubs right now and said, we’ll give you a young, in his prime stud starting pitcher, I would definitely consider dealing Castro. If someone came and offered a young, mid-20’s stud positional player, I’d definitely consider dealing Castro. I’m not against dealing Castro – I’m open to any consideration, and I would hope Hendry is as well. I tend to think you should protect him, but if the right deal came along, sure I’d ponder it. I just don’t think Granderson is that deal (granted, there’s probably very few guys I’d say yes to).

I’m also not sure that Granderson will not the package that Dombrowski wants. In the end, DD may have to decide whether or not to take a good, but not great, package or to keep Granderson. If it’s the former, then it’ seems likely that ownership is forcing his hands on it. The whole idea of dealing Granderson never made that much sense (and it makes less sense now that they’ve resigned Everett) because with their current roster, they should be competitive in the weak AL Central.

by toonsterwu on Dec 7, 2009 10:06 PM CST up reply actions  

OK, but it's hard to make too much of a prediction from A-ball

What makes a player is how well they adjust to better competition, with the step from AAA to MLB being the biggest. You just can’t know how that will work at this point.

by ClarkFan on Dec 8, 2009 11:41 AM CST up reply actions  

As for Lee vs. Castro

I think Lee can be quite good, but as I noted in the other thread, the projections are different. Whereas guys like Castro and Ramirez were projected as potential run producers at that age, Lee is almost strictly projected as a top of the order bat. While he could develop more natural power, to really take the next step forward in power, you’d have to have him rework his entire swing, which is a big risk in it’s own right. And much as I love a leadoff hitter, a potential middle of the order hitter is far more valuable. Sure, we’re talking projections, and certainly, I get the fact that some folks don’t want to wait on that, or find it to risky. I have no qualms with that.

But if you are asking me why I’m more willing to ponder Lee in comparison to Starlin, it’s really quite simple – Starlin’s a potential middle of the order bat, whereas Lee’s a potential top of the order bat, and Starlin’s ahead in the depth charts right now.

Overall, Lee projects as a better defender, but that doesn’t reflect poorly on Starlin, who projects as a solid to potential plus defender in his own right.

by toonsterwu on Dec 7, 2009 9:33 PM CST up reply actions  

Well we never had a problem with power

whereas we’ve had a continual problem in the top spot; one need look no further than how much Kenny Lofton transformed this team in his brief time here.

I dont think we’ll ever have too much trouble scoring runs in Wrigley, and yes a run producing SS would be a luxury and I certainly dont fault your logic, but given the makeup of this team, what good will he do when the rest of the team is in complete decline?

Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.

by bren on Dec 7, 2009 9:45 PM CST up reply actions  

You know

just because the team is in a win now mode doesnt mean the farm system should be torn down

This Chicago Cubs team is currently Aaron free. Keep it that way, please.

by jesus christos on Dec 7, 2009 9:47 PM CST up reply actions  

fair enough

but if we’re looking at prospects, I’m less concerned about that. Push comes to shove, you overpay for a leadoff bat at some point down the line. I’d rather protect the more valuable asset.

As for the 2nd part (last sentence), as I note below, there’s really only one key thing that needs to happen in the next 2-3 years for the Cubs to stay competitive – they need to either develop an impact bat or a middle of the rotation starter. If we have to land both things, then we might have some problems.

Real quick hypothetical to sketch out my point -

After 2010 – Lee/Lilly are FA’s. It’s fair to assume that one or two kids will likely be in key roles come 2011. Let’s assume that the Hendry has around 140-150 mil. Option A is probably to resign Lee to say, a 2 year deal and plug a young arm in the rotation. Option B would be to sign a LF, move Soriano to first, and plug a young arm. Option C would be to resign Lilly and let Lee go and hope that a young OF is ready (best bet would be Brett Jackson, but that’s really pushing it). Why those options? Financially, it seems unlikely that the Cubs could sign 2 impact FA’s at the Lilly and Lee level (certianly, they could sign a cheap gamble and get lucky, but that makes this hypothetical messy). If they increase the payroll, then that’s a different story. I guess Option D would be to split the money down and sign 2 lesser guys, or something like that. Personally, I think for 2011, we’ll see Castro at shortstop with one of the big 3 arms in the rotation along with Zambrano, Dempster, Wells. Is this outlook for 2011 a great team? Probably not, but the Cubs should still be competitive.

After 2011 – Fukudome, Bradley responsibility, and Grabow come off the boards. The Cubs should have enough to fill most things internally for the pen. The rotation might have an opening. I’ll be stunned if the Cubs can’t develop a 2nd baseman from our system depth by then. It seems likely, to me, that unless Aramis collapses, that we would pick up the option for 2012. Short of it is, assuming someone like Brett Jackson isn’t ready, the Cubs should have enough money to sign one OF and make small additions to keep us competitive.

I look to this offseason more as an in-between phase. In all likelihood, the Cubs will start a youth movement of sorts in the near future, while slowly forcing out this current core. Whether we stay competitive or not will depend moreso on the decisions in the coming years, but I don’t think this organization will go down in the tanks unless they willfully head that direction (that is, I don’t think that the outlook is nearly that dire). It might mean that we aren’t a playoff team for a couple years, but I think we should still be competitive, as long as Ricketts allows for similar payrolls to what is occuring now.

by toonsterwu on Dec 7, 2009 10:00 PM CST up reply actions  

Can I just say?

Its horribly depressing and an indication of Hendrys inability to manage a team that youre already counting down the years until Grabow comes off the books.

But I think youre a sight more optimistic than I am about this teams chances after the first 2 years or so of this coming decade.

I dont know where this Castro hype is coming from and there a whole world of Vitters doubters, Colvin was a complete waste of a pick Lee is further behind Castro in his development….so it could be a bleak decade unless Ricketts spends with the big boys.

So if we dont go for it now, what are we waiting for?

Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.

by bren on Dec 8, 2009 5:19 PM CST up reply actions  

Kenny L...

….one of the key ingrediants this club has been missing for sometime now.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Dec 8, 2009 12:15 AM CST up reply actions  

btw, as for the short term future for the team

If you believe that Starlin can be a top 5 shortstop, that’s a big building block. A top 5 shortstop in the game right now would cost both arms and legs.

I’m also not sure that things are as gloomy as you make it sound. I could go into a long hypothetical post, but put it this way – it’s fair to assume that some kids will work their way into the roster in the next year or two. That should allow the Cubs to sign a corner OF (or 1st baseman) after 2010 for 2011 (could very well be Derrek on a 2 year deal, or they could shift Soriano to first and go after a FA).

The big key is whether or not one of our arms can develop into a solid middle of the rotation arm. If so, that will ease the financial burdens, giving us enough flexibility that, provided we can fill in some spots internally, that we should be able to be competitive in the next few years.

by toonsterwu on Dec 7, 2009 9:47 PM CST up reply actions  

Please name all of the holes in Granderson's game.

Hitting leftys makes one. What’s #2?

Is he traded yet?

by DGU on Dec 7, 2009 7:09 PM CST up reply actions  

He was a color-commentator for TNA wrestling

But I did really like this little excerpt from his wikipedia page:

Off the field, Granderson has served as an ambassador for Major League Baseball International. He has traveled to Italy, China, and South Africa. In appreciation, Commissioner Bud Selig penned a thank you letter to Granderson which, in part, said, “There are so many fine young men playing Major League baseball today, but I can think of no one who is better suited to represent our national pastime than you.”

I would hate to have a guy like that on our team, absolutely hate it.

"It's been my policy to view the Internet not as an 'information highway,' but as an electronic asylum filled with babbling loonies." - Mike Royko

by DTJchris on Dec 7, 2009 7:34 PM CST up reply actions  

Even if Castro kicks puppies

I would keep him over Granderson. Yep you always have the unknown but a top young SS who can hit and field is one the rarest things you can have.

"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim

by Doggie Stalker on Dec 7, 2009 7:41 PM CST up reply actions  

I'm not advocating trading Castro

I just would love to have Granderson on our team. If it could get done without trading Castro, I think the Cubs should do it, and that means Soto, Vitters, or basically anyone else.

And, for the record, Castro not only kicks puppies but he punches babies, true story.

"It's been my policy to view the Internet not as an 'information highway,' but as an electronic asylum filled with babbling loonies." - Mike Royko

by DTJchris on Dec 7, 2009 7:47 PM CST up reply actions  

Vitters , Cashner etc fine

Um if you trade Soto then who catches. You getting in the Molina sweepstakes. I am not saying he is so great just that you need a catcher.

"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim

by Doggie Stalker on Dec 7, 2009 7:57 PM CST up reply actions  

I don't think that finding a defensive minded catcher is difficult

If we had both Hill and another catcher in a similar vain, that’s all we need. Though I think having a catcher with some hitting ability is a good thing, a catcher who plays plus defense and handles pitchers well is most important for a team’s backstop.

"It's been my policy to view the Internet not as an 'information highway,' but as an electronic asylum filled with babbling loonies." - Mike Royko

by DTJchris on Dec 7, 2009 8:00 PM CST up reply actions  

So you want Ausmus ?

Actually a bunch of catchers( Zaun, Blanco , & Coste ) already signed. The top ones are Molina and Toriealba (sic) so you would have to pay for them. Not so easy to get a catcher.

"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim

by Doggie Stalker on Dec 7, 2009 8:28 PM CST up reply actions  

I'd rather have Torrealba over Molina

but yeah, either one would work. Would love to have Blanco back. Also, though I might be remembering this wrong, but in the case of Hill, we had no expectations for him but he proved to be a formidable back up catcher.

"It's been my policy to view the Internet not as an 'information highway,' but as an electronic asylum filled with babbling loonies." - Mike Royko

by DTJchris on Dec 7, 2009 8:33 PM CST up reply actions  

Blanco signed with the Mets

Who seem to be collecting back up catchers as they also signed Coste. Torrealba is fine but you need to have money to pay him and he has a lot of teams after him.

"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim

by Doggie Stalker on Dec 7, 2009 8:50 PM CST up reply actions  

Yeah, knew about Blanco

would still love to have him back.

"It's been my policy to view the Internet not as an 'information highway,' but as an electronic asylum filled with babbling loonies." - Mike Royko

by DTJchris on Dec 7, 2009 9:05 PM CST up reply actions  

Hank White is always welcome

"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim

by Doggie Stalker on Dec 7, 2009 11:19 PM CST up reply actions  

So is a Cubs World Series

we cant wait around for a 19 year old kid to blossom, if he ever does, buy the time he’s even above average it wont matter b/c the team will be a shadow of what it is now, and Ricketts hasnt shown any indication yet he’s going to spend with the big boys; now whether he hasnt b/c he cant do anything until all of Jimbos mistakes are gone, or he just wont spend that willfully remains to be seen.

Id gladly trade Castro for Granderson, especially since he’d be going to the other league

Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.

by bren on Dec 7, 2009 7:47 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

Just asking...

When Cedeno was a prospect (before he turned into the bonehead he did at the major league level), how did he compare to Castro? The more I think about this, the harder it is for me to get all giddy about this kid. He’s only 19.

by kanderber on Dec 7, 2009 6:08 PM CST reply actions   1 recs

Both were similarly gifted

but the biggest difference is that Cedeno was a guy who, by most accounts, wasn’t a good student and was bullish on his own physical capabilities, whereas Castro has been noted as a hard worker.

by toonsterwu on Dec 7, 2009 7:39 PM CST up reply actions  

I think you are putting it nicely

I don’t think it was that Ronnie was not a hard worker, it was that he simply lacked baseball sense.That does not seem to be an isuee with Castro.

"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim

by Doggie Stalker on Dec 7, 2009 7:43 PM CST up reply actions  

Granderson isn't a perfect

player, but he would fit our needs well, isn’t expensive, isn’t old, and is supposed to be a good guy.

Castro is a 19 year old with a sub-.750 OPS in the minors. He could be great, but given the Cubs track record with identifying and developing “can’t miss” prospects, if they can get an all-star caliber player for him, go for it.

DEJESUS!!!

by tomas21 on Dec 7, 2009 6:15 PM CST reply actions  

I often put myself in Hendry's position

Would I deal Castro for Granderson? 99.9% of the time there isn’t a prospect I wouldn’t trade to help the current year’s chances of winning a World Series. This is that .01% given the near impossible chances of drafting and developing Quality Major League SS’s these days!

I would sleep with Blou if it meant the Cubs would win a WS. by Doggie Stalker on Aug 22, 2009 4:11 PM EDT

by cubsluver22 on Dec 7, 2009 6:22 PM CST up reply actions  

I love Curtis Granderson

FWIW and would trade “any” other combination of prospects to get him!

I would sleep with Blou if it meant the Cubs would win a WS. by Doggie Stalker on Aug 22, 2009 4:11 PM EDT

by cubsluver22 on Dec 7, 2009 6:23 PM CST up reply actions  

Penny Wise and Pound Foolish

Not trading for Granderson is exactly that. The Cubs need a left handed lead off hitter who can also be a clubhouse leader. Get it done, Hendry!

aka “Mrs. Zeke”

by queenmamarah1 on Dec 7, 2009 6:30 PM CST reply actions  

lead off hitter

granderson is as much of a leadoff hitter as soriano and theriot are

This Chicago Cubs team is currently Aaron free. Keep it that way, please.

by jesus christos on Dec 7, 2009 7:15 PM CST up reply actions  

Who Am I?

These are my splits versus left handers. 2008 is my best full season and even that wasn’t very good. If you sign me, you will still need someone to platoon with me in CF whenever a lefty hurls against us.

2009: .183/ .245/ .239/ .484
2008: .259/ .310/ .429/ .739
2007: .160/ .225/ .269/ .494

Career: .210/ .270/ .344/.614

Who am I? I am the guy who is not worth the prospects my reputation would demand in a trade, regardless of my defensive prowess.

Eliminate that pesky Dominatrix in one easy step. Step 1: Tell her you're a Cubs fan!

by TMOX on Dec 7, 2009 7:03 PM CST reply actions  

The great thing about this

is that with splits so bad we definitely won’t play him against LHP. And that will leave us with

2009 .275/.358/.539
2008 .288/.383/.517
2007 .337/.393/.621

Let’s compare those RHP splits to the guy Lou wants if we don’t do the trade:
2009 .244/.318/.430
2008 .231/.309/.452
2007 .222/.298/.402

And hey, since Lou likes him so much, that’ll be the line we see batting 2nd or 5th in our lineup v. RHP.

Is he traded yet?

by DGU on Dec 7, 2009 7:17 PM CST up reply actions  

Cost

If Granderson were a free agent or a A-Ram type salary dump, I’d take him in a heartbeat; it’s the cost in prospects for a guy who can’t play at all versus lefties that makes it a bad deal; those numbers versus right-handers are trending downward as well. Granderson is a solid defensive player who flashes brilliance, and his reputation will guarantee some moron like Brian Sabean will overpay for him in a trade. I don’t like the opportunity cost, that’s all.

Now, Bradley for Granderson – there’s a deal I can get behind!

Eliminate that pesky Dominatrix in one easy step. Step 1: Tell her you're a Cubs fan!

by TMOX on Dec 7, 2009 7:24 PM CST up reply actions  

Disagree

Cubs have a huge, huge need for a left-handed bat in that lineup. Curtis Granderson significantly addresses the need and is a fine centerfielder to boot who also brings some much needed athleticism to the table.

There are options you can come up with to hit against lefties. Granderson is a damned fine ballplayer who fits the needs of the Cubs IF the Cubs believe they still have a window of opportunity left to win.

The Blackhawks and the Stanley Cup in 2010.

by BLou on Dec 7, 2009 7:48 PM CST up reply actions  

Granderson is better than a free agent.

He’s signed to a contract that underpays him and has a team option that will cover most of the years he’ll be able to play CF and in his prime.

There’s a limit to what I’d pay and I’d certainly hold the line on Castro for a long time in negotiations. There are some deals I’d do for Granderson with Castro in them. What I’d really like to accomplish however is a Marmol + trade for Granderson.

I’d also note that Granderson isn’t trending downward. His ’09 and ’08 lines are comparable. He just probably had a career year in ’07.

Is he traded yet?

by DGU on Dec 7, 2009 8:45 PM CST up reply actions  

So you give up Castro ( and others ) for a guy who will platoon ?

I mean hey I should be all for it because guess who likely gets to platoon with him ?

"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim

by Doggie Stalker on Dec 7, 2009 7:44 PM CST up reply actions  

Hey I want Coco Crisp

If you are going to trade a guy named Milton Bradley you at least have to get someone with an equally silly name that there must be commercial jingle for.

"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either Jim

by Doggie Stalker on Dec 7, 2009 8:30 PM CST up reply actions  

Nope, play him every day for his defense

Just remember to change where he hits against LH pitchers. And platooning against RH pitchers translates to something like 120 games/500 PA.

Platoon Fukudome, whose splits against LHP were equally horrid last year, and who plays a position where defense is less critical.

by ClarkFan on Dec 8, 2009 11:54 AM CST up reply actions  

Odds are that Starlin Castro is nothing special

This is, after all, the Cubs we are talking about. We’ve been down this path very many times before…Corey Patterson and Felix Pie were latest iterations.

The Cubs window of opportunity to win has either already closed or is about to close. The Cubs also have screaming need for a left-handed bat and improved defense in the outfield. If you can make the compelling argument that Granderson can help you win now then you have to make the deal.

This all said I still don’t believe Granderson will be traded.

The Blackhawks and the Stanley Cup in 2010.

by BLou on Dec 7, 2009 7:39 PM CST reply actions  

How Castro pans out depends on what we do with him

If we trade him now he will be an all-star for years, if we keep him he will flake out like the others before him

by bheidge on Dec 7, 2009 7:58 PM CST up reply actions  

Wow, I actually agree with you to a certain extent

Though I think Castro may be something special, it has been proven that Granderson is something special, probably not as a lead off hitter though.

"It's been my policy to view the Internet not as an 'information highway,' but as an electronic asylum filled with babbling loonies." - Mike Royko

by DTJchris on Dec 7, 2009 7:49 PM CST reply actions  

oops, that was a reply for BLou

Might I add though, Granderson could be a lead off hitter, just not against lefties.

"It's been my policy to view the Internet not as an 'information highway,' but as an electronic asylum filled with babbling loonies." - Mike Royko

by DTJchris on Dec 7, 2009 7:51 PM CST up reply actions  

no

he cant

This Chicago Cubs team is currently Aaron free. Keep it that way, please.

by jesus christos on Dec 7, 2009 8:05 PM CST up reply actions  

His .367 career OBP is a far cry from the .326 we get from Soriano

Have Granderson lead off against righties and have Theriot and his .386 OBP against lefties lead off otherwise.

"It's been my policy to view the Internet not as an 'information highway,' but as an electronic asylum filled with babbling loonies." - Mike Royko

by DTJchris on Dec 7, 2009 8:13 PM CST up reply actions  

grandersons career OBP is .344, not .367

This Chicago Cubs team is currently Aaron free. Keep it that way, please.

by jesus christos on Dec 7, 2009 8:37 PM CST up reply actions  

Against right handers, sorry

thought that was implied.

"It's been my policy to view the Internet not as an 'information highway,' but as an electronic asylum filled with babbling loonies." - Mike Royko

by DTJchris on Dec 7, 2009 8:39 PM CST up reply actions  

It takes quality to get quality

Some Cub fans have been conditioned to believe that the Cubs can acquire quality talent for the equivalent of a bag of magic beans. That’s not going to happen. Also, it is foolhardy for our idiot GM to make another expensive foray into free agency to pick up a 37 year old right-handed hitting hack in Mike Cameron.

The Blackhawks and the Stanley Cup in 2010.

by BLou on Dec 7, 2009 8:05 PM CST up reply actions  

Again, agree with you

The only way to acquire proven talent in the trade market is to give up talent. Teams are not just going to go with quantity over quality in the case of a hot commodity like Granderson, they have to actually want to make the deal and think it will better their team. In the case of the Tigers, they have Adam Everett as their starting SS, they will be looking for a young SS in return.

"It's been my policy to view the Internet not as an 'information highway,' but as an electronic asylum filled with babbling loonies." - Mike Royko

by DTJchris on Dec 7, 2009 8:19 PM CST up reply actions  

I have no problem giving up talent for a proven player

but I am not sure Granderson is the commodity that we want. He has a few holes in his game and I dont trust him in the field in big games. I have nothing to back that up but it seems he gets bad reads and takes bad routes.

by bheidge on Dec 7, 2009 8:30 PM CST up reply actions  

There's a difference

between offering a “bag of magic beans” and your top prospect.

by fsuapollo on Dec 7, 2009 9:55 PM CST up reply actions  

OK, two bags of magic beans

But a prospect is still just a prospect until he has faced MLB pitching (or hitting for a pitcher).

by ClarkFan on Dec 8, 2009 11:58 AM CST up reply actions  

There are worse ideas than platooning leadoff hitters.

Soriano might even be a reasonable leadoff option against LHP – don’t know what his splits are, but they can’t murder him with that down-and-away slider like RHP can.

by ClarkFan on Dec 8, 2009 11:57 AM CST up reply actions  

i would take MLB proven over prospects that you do not know about

baseball is a game of outs......pop out, ground out, line out, pitch out, strike out, fly out, and Fox and Bud's favorite black out

by Cubbie-Tim on Dec 7, 2009 10:28 PM CST reply actions  

How proven do they need to be?

Would you trade Castro for David DeJesus?

Is he traded yet?

by DGU on Dec 8, 2009 6:55 AM CST up reply actions  

Wow, maybe it is a firesale

in the latest update on foxsports, they are suggesting that the tigers would deal granderson and jackson for Max Scherzer, Phil Coke, Michael Dunn, and Austin Jackson. That’s a horrible deal … and one the Cubs should be able to top without Castro.

by toonsterwu on Dec 7, 2009 10:29 PM CST reply actions  

Is this two seperate deals?

Jackson to Arizona for Scherzer and Granderson to the Yankees for the rest?

"It's been my policy to view the Internet not as an 'information highway,' but as an electronic asylum filled with babbling loonies." - Mike Royko

by DTJchris on Dec 7, 2009 10:56 PM CST up reply actions  

The deal would send Curtis Granderson to the Yanks, along with a prospect or two from the D’Backs. Arizona would obtain Edwin Jackson from the Tigers and Ian Kennedy from the Yankees. The Tigers would obtain Max Scherzer from the D’Backs and Austin Jackson, Phil Coke and Michael Dunn from the Yanks.

This Chicago Cubs team is currently Aaron free. Keep it that way, please.

by jesus christos on Dec 7, 2009 11:05 PM CST up reply actions  

as bad as I think the deal would be for the Tigers

It might indicate that the Cubs would need a 3rd team to make Granderson happen. If they are looking for a Scherzer type arm, the Cubs simply don’t have that asset.

by toonsterwu on Dec 7, 2009 11:07 PM CST up reply actions  

You know...

The sad thing is that while Detroit could certainly be competitive with their current team, the area economy is so bad that they’ve surely payroll concerns for next season. Dombrowski can keep claiming that he doesn’t have to dump salary, but he’s as believable as Hendry would be suggesting that Bradley could come back next season. He can’t dump guys like Willis and Ordonez, so what else can he do?

by Damen Jackson on Dec 7, 2009 11:08 PM CST up reply actions  

But the area economy is that bad

The Tigers probably had ticket sales revenue of about $70M last year with a payroll of $115M – that is a recipe for a financial black hole.

by ClarkFan on Dec 8, 2009 12:00 PM CST up reply actions  

Pondering the Cubs and Granderson after tonight's rumors

Early indications suggest that both the Yankees and Tigers didn’t like the deal. Tbh, I don’t really get the 3 way for the Tigers and Diamondbacks – I think swapping Scherzer for Jackson/Kennedy is a downgrade for now, and I think a package of Scherzer/Jackson/Coke/Dunn is rather laughable for the combination of Jackson and Granderson.

That said, assuming the high end chips are attractive to the Tigers (Scherzer/Austin Jackson), it may point to the biggest problem the Cubs have in making a deal. They simply don’t have the high end, ready young major league arm to make the swap, and to net that guy would be rather difficult in it’s own right. It doesn’t rule out the Cubs chances of making a deal, but if the demand is a top young arm that’s ready for the bigs, it really puts the Cubs behind. If they can’t land a trade asset in a deal, then it might force the Cubs to either cave on Castro or to fork over, say, 3 of our remaining top 6 or so assets besides Castro.

Tbh, I’ve got no clue what Josh Byrnes is doing. Scherzer seems like the type of arm you build with, not deal away.

by toonsterwu on Dec 7, 2009 11:33 PM CST reply actions  

i seriously shouldn't be procrastinating

but i half wonder if the Cubs could somehow insert themselves into the D-backs/Tigers discussion (the Yankees were supposedly balking at Kennedy/Jackson/Dunn/Coke, with the Tigers supposedly wanting more – sure, that’s 3 arms, but 3 very mediocre arms, an end of the rotation starter and 2 pen arms.) I wouldn’t lose sleep over giving a better package than that, but it would require finding a 4th team to provide a cheap young CF, and I’m running on blanks on ideas on that one. Well … there is Felix Pie.

by toonsterwu on Dec 8, 2009 12:08 AM CST up reply actions  

okay, contemplating the debunked original a bit further

That isn’t a bad deal for the tigers. After the initial surprise, it isn’t as bad as I initially thought, if I let my personal opinion on Austin Jackson go for a moment. A package of Scherzer/Jackson/Coke/Dunn would be too much for Granderson (ready number 2 starter right now who has ace potential and capable CF/pen options). I think when you add Jackson in there, you should get a little more, but it isn’t bad.

That said, I still think the Yankees make out like bandits. Kennedy, to me, is an end of the rotation arm. Better than, perhaps, a Casey Coleman type, but not significantly, imo. Coke and Dunn are pen arms, with Dunn having some potential as a late inning lefty. Those three arms and Jackson shouldn’t, imo, equate into Curtis Granderson, 1 or 2 prospects, and his contract.

Personally, I think a package of say, Carpenter/Gaub/Parker would be better than a package of Kennedy/Coke/Dunn, and I’d gladly fork over those three arms in a deal to land Granderson. That would still leave us a CF short from completing a deal, though.

by toonsterwu on Dec 8, 2009 1:35 AM CST up reply actions  

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