DH Rules

by cronoj on Feb 11, 2009 8:07 AM CST

In my office today we were discussing the DH rule in the AL and a few questions arose. Considering that Carlos Zambrano had a higher batting average last year than the AL batting champion and that Zambrano had a longer hitting streak (in calendar days) than Joe DiMaggio, it can be argued that he'd be better off hitting for himself.

If the Cubs chose to allow him, would Zambrano be allowed to hit for himself in an AL park?

If he did hit for himself, when he was relieved, would he be allowed to stay in the game as the DH?

Thanks for any insight

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I wouldn't do it.

What happens when Z leaves the game? Then you have to burn pinch-hitters, because you don’t want your relief pitchers batting.

Better to use the DH. In fact, this year the Cubs have an ideal candidate in Milton Bradley, who is a switch-hitter and who could probably use the rest off his knees.

Finally, the Cubs have only six games in AL parks in 2009 — three in Detroit, three at the Cell. It’s entirely possible Z misses both those series.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Feb 11, 2009 8:41 AM CST reply actions

agree

In fact I think you will see some new wrinkles on Lou managing the game. He said he read Wooden’s Book on psychology where Wooden will tell you that the team concept among superior athletes is the toughest thing a coach/manager must do to focus the players on the singular goal of winning as a team.

I suspect that Lou will find ways to save and take Bradley out of the game when opportunities rise while inserting better defensive players who still be asked to perform.

Cubs hold a lead in the 7th inning on and he begins to use his bullpen. I could see Piniella inserting both a defensive player into the OF in a double switch, but when Bradley’s spot comes up he might then insert a PH and then inserting a new pitcher.

This could go on regularly. Translated—-all players have a role to serve the team in winning not serving their own personal gain.

Piniella: "This is a tougher job than I thought it would be, I'm going to be honest with you."

by Ivy Walls on Feb 11, 2009 9:08 AM CST up reply actions

Why would you bat for Bradley?

More likely, let Bradley hit, if he gets on, Gathright runs for him and stays in the game.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Feb 11, 2009 9:17 AM CST up reply actions

Agreed...

The point of replacing Bradley would be to avoid injury in the field or on the bases. You want him hitting. He’s going to be a better option at the plate than any of our PH options.

by SouthernCub on Feb 11, 2009 9:50 AM CST up reply actions

Oh, and also...

… the answer to your question about whether he could stay in the game is no, because if he hits for himself, he’s not the DH, he’s the pitcher batting for himself.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Feb 11, 2009 8:41 AM CST reply actions

If he could do that

and a relief pitcher came in, could Z stay in the game as the DH?

"There are no curses here...Games are won and lost on the baseball field" - Lou Piniella

by El Borto on Feb 11, 2009 8:46 AM CST up reply actions

I would think so

"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic

by Cubbie-Tim on Feb 11, 2009 8:49 AM CST up reply actions

No, because he's not the DH in that case.

If a pitcher bats, he bats as a pitcher, unless he is DH’ing for some other pitcher. I trust you see the difference.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Feb 11, 2009 8:54 AM CST up reply actions

And wouldn't he then be DHing for some other pitcher?

If he stops pitching and someone else comes in to pitch, couldn’t Zambrano then stay in the game as the DH? Previously he was hitting for himself. Now, he’d be DHing for some other pitcher.

People switch positions on the field all the time (just not spots in the batting order). The question comes down to whether the DH is a position.

by SouthernCub on Feb 11, 2009 9:35 AM CST up reply actions

The DH is different.

Once you are a DH, you are not another position. If you start the game as the DH, you are the DH, not a pitcher. The DH can move to another position, at which time you lose the DH rule for the rest of the game.

But if you are the pitcher in the game and you hit for yourself, you are not the DH. You are the pitcher, batting for yourself. If you are removed from the game, you are out of the game, you can’t say in as the DH, because you weren’t the DH.

I hope this clears it up.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Feb 11, 2009 9:51 AM CST up reply actions

It only clears it up if it's correct...

In either case, it’s probably splitting hairs. We will most likely have a better hitting option on our bench than Zambrano, who is a career .633 OPS guy. I’d rather have that guy hitting than Zambrano, even though Zambrano was great last year.

by SouthernCub on Feb 11, 2009 9:59 AM CST up reply actions

Well if the bench stands as it is, he might be our best DH option

kidding of course, but Im sure he’ll get a few PH ABs

Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.

by bren on Feb 11, 2009 8:51 AM CST reply actions

While we're on the subject

Does the DH HAVE to replace the pitcher?

Could Zambrano hit for himself, but the DH take the place of say, Fontenot or Fukudome or Bako?

There is no such thing as an ugly female breast

by Worf on Feb 11, 2009 9:23 AM CST reply actions

I understand the rules were changed a while back to limit the DH to replacing the pitcher.

by N Oakley on Feb 11, 2009 9:33 AM CST up reply actions

I thought so too. Not sure why, though

There is no such thing as an ugly female breast

by Worf on Feb 11, 2009 9:41 AM CST up reply actions

Besides the question of whether or not he can stay in as a DH...

I’d say it’s not a good idea. While Zambrano had a fantastic year last year, he has a .246 OBP and .633 OPS for his career. The previous two seasons he was under .600 in OPS. That’s not something I want in the lineup.

by SouthernCub on Feb 11, 2009 9:37 AM CST reply actions

Amen

Carlos is a good hitting pitcher.

But he is still a hitting pitcher.

There is no such thing as an ugly female breast

by Worf on Feb 11, 2009 9:42 AM CST up reply actions

OK, here it is, just so everyone's clear...

… the official DH rule, MLB Rule 6.10(b):

A hitter may be designated to bat for the starting pitcher and all subsequent pitchers in any game without otherwise affecting the status of the pitcher(s) in the game. A Designated Hitter for the pitcher must be selected prior to the game and must be includedin the lineup cards presented to the Umpire in Chief.
The designated hitter named in the starting lineup must come to bat at least one time, unless the opposing club changes pitchers.
It is not mandatory that a club designate a hitter for the pitcher, but failure to do so prior to the game precludes the use of a Designated Hitter for that game.
Pinch hitters for a Designated Hitter may be used. Any substitute hitter for a Designated Hitter becomes the Designated Hitter. A replaced Designated Hitter shall not re-enter the game in any capacity.
The Designated Hitter may be used defensively, continuing to bat in the same position in the batting order, but the pitcher must then bat in the place of the substituted defensive player, unless more than one substitution is made, and the manager then must designate their spots in the batting order.
A runner may be substituted for the Designated Hitter and the runner assumes the role of Designated Hitter. A Designated Hitter may not pinch run.
A Designated Hitter is "locked" into the batting order. No multiple substitutions may be made that will alter the batting rotation of the Designated Hitter.
Once the game pitcher is switched from the mound to a defensive position this move shall terminate the Designated Hitter role for the remainder of the game.
Once a pinch hitter bats for any player in the batting order and then enters the game to pitch, this move shall terminate the Designated Hitter role for the remainder of the game.
Once the game pitcher bats for the Designated Hitter this move shall terminate the Designated Hitter role for the remainder of the game. (The game pitcher may only pinch-hit for the Designated Hitter.)
Once a Designated Hitter assumes a defensive position this move shall terminate the Designated Hitter role for the remainder of the game. A substitute for the Designated Hitter need not be announced until it is the Designated Hitter’s turn to bat.

I put the relevant info about pitchers batting for the DH in italics above. Thus, if a pitcher bats for himself in a DH-eligible game, whether it’s at the start of the game or later, there is no longer a DH rule, and if said pitcher is removed from the game, he can no longer bat.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Feb 11, 2009 10:13 AM CST reply actions

This answers my questions.

Thanks

by cronoj on Feb 11, 2009 11:11 AM CST up reply actions

Rick Rhoden - 1988

With the Yankees, Rhoden was a pitcher used as a DH. He was not pitching in the game in which he was the DH on June 11, 1988.

"The big possum walks late." - Harry Caray

by memphiscub on Feb 11, 2009 10:16 AM CST reply actions

That is, I believe...

… the only time that has been done.

Pitchers have batted for themselves in AL games, but that’s the only time a pitcher was used as a DH when he was not pitching.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Feb 11, 2009 10:29 AM CST up reply actions

how often

do AL pitchers actually go to bat? I can’t imagine the Yankee’s letting CC hit, even though he’s proven that he’s a solid bat for a pitcher

There's nothing wrong with this team that more pitching, more fielding and more hitting couldn't help......"--Bill Buckner

by laidbackliam on Feb 11, 2009 5:00 PM CST up reply actions

AL pitchers generally only bat in NL parks.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Feb 11, 2009 5:14 PM CST up reply actions

that i get

i was just curious if a team ever decides to just not use the DH rule, and plays without one. Has that happened in recent years (in an AL park, obviously).

There's nothing wrong with this team that more pitching, more fielding and more hitting couldn't help......"--Bill Buckner

by laidbackliam on Feb 11, 2009 7:55 PM CST up reply actions