Fox - MLB Chief Might Reinstate Aaron as Home Run King, Suspend Rodriguez
by cubnational on Feb 13, 2009 10:18 AM CST
102 comments
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,491644,00.html
Ok, I searched the site, didn't see anything related to this story specifically here. Sorry that I have to use the 75 word caveat here to defend my posting here since this may have already been posted. There's been a lot specifically discussing the A-Rod furor, but I didn't see -- and it was a quick look -- anything about this here.
Looks like A-Roid and Barroid's juicing is finally cashing in some long term dividends for the game.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
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Fanshot Yesterday
Seems like a silly idea. Despite the fact he’s (Barry) a clown, you can’t just ignore all the HR’s he hit.
by N Oakley on Feb 13, 2009 10:24 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
I knew I missed something .. figures .. Sorry
Well, Next Year is here .. and Jack's century's gotta end some time .. GO CUBBIES!
by cubnational on Feb 13, 2009 10:25 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You can delete this if you want.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Feb 13, 2009 10:30 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not harassing you.
Just wanted you to know before the serious post police appeared.
by N Oakley on Feb 13, 2009 10:33 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Uh oh...here they come...
Happy PCR Day, everyone!
by dat cubfan daver on Feb 13, 2009 10:36 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for posting this!
I was looking for that a while ago.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Feb 13, 2009 10:37 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Bud Light
is an ass clown. He sits there for years with his head in some orifice.
Then under extreme pressure, implements this lame process with a ton of ambiguity.
Then when the player that will make all this bad stuff go away gets caught himself, the “commish” is going to now jump all over the Bonds thing and then suspend A-Rod for testing “positive” during a questionable timeframe in terms of legality.
There absolutely too many shades of gray in this whole thing. Now there’s an alleged 103 “dirty” players out there that are overshadowing several times more clean players.
And Congress is going to get involved again? These are the same people that are trying to turn our country into a socialist society.
Bud has no control over his league. He made the owners a boatload of money, hence his $18M+ compensation, all the while they all turned away for years when this crap was happening. Now this unilateral move?
Shit or get off the pot. Open it all up now, institute harsher punishments and clear the names of those who are truly innocent, or just forget the whole thing and don’t say anything anymore. Quit vascilating about what to do today or next week or next month.
Sweet Lou for Mayor in '11.
by blackhawk24 on Feb 13, 2009 10:45 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
There are punishments in place.
You can have a legitimate argument over whether they are harsh enough or not.
The problem with the A-Rod revelation is that it stirs up stuff that was going on 5 and 6 years ago, before the current punishments were in place. You can’t punish someone for something that was done when no penalties were in place, not to mention the fact that the test results from 2003 were supposed to be anonymous (and destroyed, but that’s the MLBPA’s problem).
Let’s keep the politics out of this, please. It has nothing to do with this situation.
I’d think that this revelation would shame Don Fehr and Gene Orza into doing something, but they seem to have no shame, and are equally culpable along with Selig.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Feb 13, 2009 10:48 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm all for punishment
but you are right in pointing out to whom the punishment should be directed. Selig and Fehr have disgraced the game.
by jerry morales rules on Feb 13, 2009 11:17 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
keep the records as they are...
This is silly.
Lets ask the question…How many home runs did Hammerin Hank hit under the infuence of Greenies? Should we take away his home run records?
Since the beginning of the game, players have been looking for edges on other players, legality be damned. Ron Santo likes to tell the story of how when his rommie Glenn Beckert first saw him injecting himself with Insulin, Beckert thinking it might be something else asked Santo if he could have some of that since Santo was doing so good and Beckert was in a slump. There was always a running joke about leaded and unleaded coffee in the clubhouses.
Back in the old days, Guy Bush had the trainer rub his arm with a secret linament that only the trainer knew about. Now as it turned out, this secret linament was only Coca-cola, but to Bush, it was something that he felt gave him an edge and he used it.
In the 60’s it was greenies, in the 90’s it was steroids. I before the 60’s it was something else.
THe records reflect what was done in the games. That fact cannot be changed. Leave the records alone
Kasey
See what old Cubs Scorecards looked like at http://cubsbythenumbers.com/scorecards.html
Also, see the Cubs 2009 schedule at http://cubsbythenumbers.com/sched2009.html
by kaseyi on Feb 13, 2009 11:05 AM CST reply actions 4 recs
In the days of the Babe
it was beer and hotdogs
Let go cubs
by cubsfaninkc on Feb 13, 2009 11:55 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Peanuts too!
I think peanuts are very underrated when it comes to the Babe’s power. New scientific study is showing just how powerful peanut antioxidants, oils, and protein is. The Babe was the Babe simply because he sat around the bars and couches eating bags and bags of peanuts. The almonds, cashews, sunflower seeds, etc… pumped nothing but raw, unadulterated power through his Bambino veins!
;O)
by TheHawkRules on Feb 13, 2009 12:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
“We need to find a way to convert these peanuts on the floor to cash”
by N Oakley on Feb 13, 2009 12:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Wonder how many
Maris and McGwire would have hit if they didn’t have to face black or Latin pitchers.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Feb 13, 2009 11:46 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
There's something so wrong with that statement
There are many factors (e.g., technology, expansion) that improve and/or water down the talent pool.
Race, religion and ethnicity should not be one of them. Talent is talent, regardless of the color of a player’s skin, his faith, or the background in which he was raised.
"Every team will win 60 games, every team will lose 60 games, it's what the team does in the other 42 games that decides the season."
by flachimesa on Feb 14, 2009 9:00 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
tell that to Josh Gibson
Ruth didn’t play the best.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Feb 14, 2009 9:11 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Not all of Josh Gibson's home runs were against "the best"
His HOF plaque says he hit almost 800 homers in his 17-year career against Negro League and semi-professional and other non-league teams.
It’s difficult to compare the two climates.
"Every team will win 60 games, every team will lose 60 games, it's what the team does in the other 42 games that decides the season."
by flachimesa on Feb 14, 2009 9:57 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Can't say for sure...
I think in Maris’ case, he just flat out owned a few guys, and that boosted his numbers considerably.
He hit 25 of his 61 homers off just 11 different pitchers, one of whom was Latin. In fact, Maris hit 9 long balls off black or Latin pitchers in 1961.
By my count, McGwire hit at least 13 homers off Latin pitchers alone, so I fail to see the advantage of being a black or Latin pitcher. I think if you take into account the ratio of white pitchers to black/Latin pitchers, it doesn’t appear that Maris or McGwire discriminated much. They hit them all.
"I've got an idea...an idea so smart my head would explode if I even began to know what I was talking about." ~Peter Griffin
by Goodie1969 on Feb 14, 2009 9:58 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Uh oh, looks like Kasey's on the juice - Bud just put an asterisk on his comment!
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Feb 13, 2009 4:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe from now on...
…if we think someone is stating an opinion too strongly, we should asterisk their comment (as opposed to rec’ing it).
Happy PCR Day, everyone!
by dat cubfan daver on Feb 13, 2009 4:38 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
or we could just say "TWWS"
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Feb 13, 2009 5:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
+1
Rec’d
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
by Cubbie-Tim on Feb 13, 2009 6:37 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The court of public opinion
will always be in favor of Hank Aaron anyway. Even now, I almost have to remind myself that Bonds is technically the all-time home run king. The stats can say what they want, but real baseball fans will always know better. To me, that’s enough.
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004
by ctcoff99 on Feb 13, 2009 11:42 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Until we all die out...
… the next generation probably won’t care.
by TheHawkRules on Feb 13, 2009 12:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
but bonds said
the record isn’t tainted.
by tim815 on Feb 14, 2009 7:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Return the *
I know the evil * is hated in public opinion, but I don’t care. I think if it has been PROVEN a player used steroids, all is his stats should have a *. I don’t think you can delete anyone’s numbers, but you can separate them. I honestly think the public would like that and it would help baseball in the PR department.
I realize that it will probably get to be like Roger Maris’s record, where nobody will care, but that may be a good 10-50 years from now. So, for the time being, just add a * beside their stats if they have been proven a steriod cheater.
by TheHawkRules on Feb 13, 2009 12:08 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
I disagree and here's why:
Who is reading the record books? I mean, seriously, who is reading them? I’ll tell you who: We are. Baseball fans. And I don’t mean casual, occasionally-go-to-a-game-and-enjoy-a-beer-and-a-dog fans. I mean the serious, devoted, passionate fans who regularly pore over baseball-reference.com and Fangraphs looking at HR totals, slugging percentages, OPS. Y’know, Sabermagicks.
And we already know – all too well – about “the Steroids Era” in baseball. I mean, anyone who knows anything about the game should know that, if he or she is looking at Barry Bonds’ HR total in 2001, well, that figure is more than likely inflated by his use of PEDs. Same goes for ARod in ’03 and, yeah, probably Sammy in ’98.
So why clutter up the record books with asterisks? To shame the handful of players who have gotten busted? Meh, seems rather petty and unnecessary. They know what they did, and they know we know what they did. Do we really need to start overpunctuating to drive home the point? I don’t think so.
The bottom line is, if you’re a serious baseball fan, you should know. And if you’re not a serious fan, well, you’re probably not looking at the records anyway.
Happy PCR Day, everyone!
by dat cubfan daver on Feb 13, 2009 1:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Agree, to a point....
… But i was a stat geek when I was young. Is it safe to say that there are still kids who love following stats, and collecting baseball cards, and follow the game? If so, they should be the ones that the * is for. When they open up the books, they should be able to see and know who cheated… we know now, but what about the kids coming up, then those after?
I think the * should be there for those who cheated, (failed a test, admitted, etc) and it should be part of their shame….
Maris didn’t deserve the shame of the *, but these guys do.
by TheHawkRules on Feb 13, 2009 1:20 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I hadn't thought of it that from that perspective.
by N Oakley on Feb 13, 2009 1:25 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
* <----------------Shame!
That’s just how i feel.
by TheHawkRules on Feb 13, 2009 1:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, that is a good point.
But I still think that, if those kids stick with baseball as serious fans, they’ll find out the truth eventually. Either they’ll end up on a site like this one and get flamed for claiming Barry Bonds was the greatest ever, or they’ll hear it from a parent or a grumpy uncle (or aunt).
Happy PCR Day, everyone!
by dat cubfan daver on Feb 13, 2009 1:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Well...
…by that time, everyone would have grown lax on the whole steroid era. The * will only affect things temporary, eventually, people won’t care anymore.
I think adding a * to the guilty would be a great punishment. It will be a symbol of shame that they deserve. Kids will see them as cheaters, and I think it will help teach them to not cheat. The players will carry that guilt with them for the rest of their lives. They deserve some sort of punishment, and I think this would be great.
If they get in the HOF, keep the * there beside them.
by TheHawkRules on Feb 13, 2009 1:42 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Why didn't Maris deserve an asterisk?
He was doing something that’s statistically proven to result in more home runs – playing more games.
These guys may or may not have been doing something that may or may not improve their ability to hit home runs.
by Wreckard on Feb 13, 2009 1:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Maris issue is different...
If he did deserve the *, he didn’t deserve it as a shameful symbol. There was nothing wrong with him hitting 61 homers in a 162 game season. People can debate about the 154/ 162 game issue, but either way, there is nothing to be ashamed of here.
The players who cheated by using steroids, they deserve the shamful *.
Jose Canseco*
Alex Rodriquez*
Roger Clemens*
etc…*
- - Players who cheated by using illegal steroids to enhance their statistics
by TheHawkRules on Feb 13, 2009 1:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Do we put an asterisk
On Ty Cobb because of his behavior,
or Perry because of the Spitball
or George Brett because of pine tar,
or any other player who either was a racist, or a drugie, or a cheater, or a unfortunate soul.
No of course not we need to save our outrage for steriods.
by Chodes on Feb 13, 2009 2:35 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You can't put a *
By these guys names because you can’t definitely prove that they were cheating. Remember pitchers were juicing too, so how do you know that juiced batters were facing non juiced pitchers. Because if you have a juiced pitcher and batter, who has the advantage?
I don’t like the fact that these guys were cheating any more then the next guy. Personally I think Bonds needs to be banned for life and thrown in jail. But putting *’s by people’s names is foolish, especially because you can’t tell for sure when they had a “advantage” if at all.
by nmcubsfan on Feb 14, 2009 5:44 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Since when was the asterisk about shaming people?
It’s not a scarlet letter. Your hunger for revenge is greater than your sense here.
Things happened on the field. The numbers recorded those things. Just like every year since baseball was invented, cheating may have influenced the numbers in some impossible to quantify way.
Let’s take this one step further: Should career ERA leader have an asterisk next to his name? After all, he did what he did against players who weren’t using steroids.
by Wreckard on Feb 13, 2009 3:25 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
And...
… the career ERA leader, Ed Walsh (1.82) did it in conditions that are far different than today’s.
Asterisk? Or just interpretation?
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Feb 13, 2009 3:42 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not talking about conditions...
I’m talking about taking illegal drugs to enhance my athletic performance so that I can make more money.
HUGE difference.
Now, I may be wrong… but if your boss was doing something illegal to make more money at your place of employment, you probably wouldn’t appreciate that, or just let it slide so easily by.
Its easy not to care if it doesn’t directly influence you. But just because you don’t really care, it doesn’t make it right.
by TheHawkRules on Feb 13, 2009 3:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
“Your hunger for revenge is greater than your sense here”
Wow… that is a really stupid statement. Haha… Did you think really hard on that? Awww….
As for Chodes comments… the big difference between those instances and steriods is that ‘roids are illegal. I think its safe tthat the police won’t arrest you if you have too much pin tar on your bat, or drop whatever on a ball, or even where golf cleats on the field.
They will arrest you however if you are illegally obtaining drugs.
HUGE DIFFERENCE….
Once again though, I have to reread this… “Your hunger for revenge is greater than your sense here”.
haha… funny stuff!
by TheHawkRules on Feb 13, 2009 3:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
So would your opinion be different
if Steroids were legal and prescribed by a doctor?
by Chodes on Feb 13, 2009 3:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Would have to be....
Everybody’s responses toward it would be different. MLB wouldn’t have a problem with it then…how could they?
by TheHawkRules on Feb 13, 2009 4:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Then Here's my question
Are we to be mad because the drugs are Illegal? If yes, I don’t think there is nearly the same level of rage if a player is doing pot, cocaine, greenies, etc. Any player taking these drugs would require an asterisk.
Are we to be mad because the drugs are performance enhancing? If yes then shouldn’t we have the same level of rage for a pitcher using a spitball or a batter using a corked bat. Would they have asterisks next to their performance.
Are we to be mad if they are not good role models for the youth of America? There are a lot of old Hall of Famers that probably need asterisks next to their records.
This is why I find the Steroid thing to be over the top.
by Chodes on Feb 13, 2009 4:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
OK.
I’ll try to answer them… but let me state first, why are we defending this so much .I’m not asking anybody to go to jail, lose their jobs, give up their millions, all I stated was to put a * beside their name to signify that they did something wrong? There is probably one person that is going really going to be stung by this, that’s the player. if they have any type of ego, then it will hurt. That’s the point.
It doesn’t take anybody stats out of the record book, that is something some people want. It doesn’t throw anybody in jail, another thing some people want. Some people want A-Rod to get kicked out his contract, won’t happen. Just a *
What they did was illegal… and I have rage against anybody who uses illegal drugs. I don’t mean this rudely to you, but I know people who have OD’’d, I know what any drugs can do and I don’t agree with any of them. If its illegal.
I believe from here, the illegal issue effects every other question on your post. It’s not just about performance enhancing, though in itself, it is wrong, but to go so far to be enhancing and illegal… if chunkiing spit on a ball was ever deemed illegal, then by all means… lol
Then the kid issue… I have spent the last 15 years of my life working with youth. It isn’t about being just a bad role model… it’s showing kids that you can…
cheat
break the law
lie
use illegal drugs
and you can make millions of dollars by doing these things.
This is a whole different ballgame than mom and dad getting mad and using foul language. This effect our culture.
That’s my opinion, bro.
by TheHawkRules on Feb 13, 2009 4:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
so...
then lets asterisk all thoses players stats from the 60’s using illegal amphetamines. I am sure that they didn’t have prescriptions for them. Like I said before…this is silly. THe records state what happened on the field. They should stand.
Kasey
See what old Cubs Scorecards looked like at http://cubsbythenumbers.com/scorecards.html
Also, see the Cubs 2009 schedule at http://cubsbythenumbers.com/sched2009.html
by kaseyi on Feb 13, 2009 4:46 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Its not silly holmes!
Well, I don’t know if amphetamines are performance enhancers, but if they are, then the steroid might not have happened if MLB would have punished those abusers of the 60’s. I can’t really comment because I was just a gleam in my daddy’s eye.
Good point! Thanks for bringing that up!
BTW: i never said anything about the stats not standing…
by TheHawkRules on Feb 13, 2009 4:51 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You need to look at this in the context of history.
Many of the players using “pep” pills, (act. speed), in the ’60s likely did have a prescription for them. In the late 50s and throughout the 60s, “pep” pills were prescribed to millions of housewives, it was their secret helper. Now it stands to reason that if housewives, with limited resources, could obtain a prescription for amphetamines, then a MLB player with much more money could find a Dr. to write him a prescription as well.
Jimmyeatworld
by Jimmyeatworld on Feb 13, 2009 4:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
i did
I stated somewhere up there….really i did, that eventually, nobody will care anymore and thats the * will be done away with. That’s fine… but that doesn’t mean they should escape punishment today does it?
This situation is the same thing as all of these chumps in government taking advantage of the law. We, as people, we just don’t care enough to sit here and fight for what we thing is right. We just fight for what’s ours. Everybody else is one their own. Whatever you want to do, it what you’ll do… but I hate the fact that these guys did roids… and hate it even more that they lied about it, have damaged this game, and have made millions off of it.
Personally, if they did roids, and were straight forward about it, etc… i would let the whole thing with them slide. These games that Bonds and Rod are playing… i have no sympathy for. My choice.
by TheHawkRules on Feb 13, 2009 4:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
it’s showing kids that you can…
cheat
break the law
lie
use illegal drugs
and you can make millions of dollars by doing these things.
The more dangerous thing is to make kids think that just by using steroids they can become a great baseball player.
The press has created this immense myth around steroids, HGH, and androgen that they’re these miracle muscle pills that are somehow a shortcut to success, that they can turn a normal mortal into a baseball great.
The truth of the matter isn’t nearly so clear. In some cases (HGH) the myth is infinitely greater than the actual efficacy of the drugs. The press is the ones selling these to kids as a miracle, just as they did to the players.
It blows my mind, for instance, that HGH continues to be a boogeyman despite a lack of any evidence to support its performance enhancing abilities. Meanwhile decades of amphetamines barely get a mention, even though they provide numerous advantages to ballplayers in terms of eye fatigue, reaction time, and saccadic movement.
If you’ve worked with youth then you should know better: you can’t change future behavior by constantly looking backwards and trying to change the past. Instead construct a system that will punish those who do it going forward, and be honest and educate people on what the real effects of these drugs are.
by Wreckard on Feb 13, 2009 4:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
dude...
And how do you construct that system? Do you just make it up as you go? No, you have to look at the past ….
Dude, i still don’t feel like talking to you though your trying to entice me to have conversation.
by TheHawkRules on Feb 13, 2009 5:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think you missed a conjunctive clause there
you can’t change future behavior by constantly looking backwards and trying to change the past.
I’ve bolded the part where you stopped reading.
Going back and adding shameful punctuation marks really isn’t a constructive strategy for deterring future generations from using PEDs. Testing, education, and outreach are.
by Wreckard on Feb 13, 2009 5:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
so is watching
MTV, VH1, HBO, etc
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
by Cubbie-Tim on Feb 13, 2009 5:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
same crap on there as in sports
just as the steroid comment below from Wreckard points our how it is a bad influence on kids, the same can be said about those on MTV, VH1, HBO, etc where they showcase stars.millionaires who have been in and out of rehab, or are doing a movie about becoming a rich frug lord was my point.
The more dangerous thing is to make kids think that just by using steroids they can become a great baseball player.
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
by Cubbie-Tim on Feb 13, 2009 9:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Wow… that is a really stupid statement. Haha… Did you think really hard on that? Awww….
I imagine I put about as much thought into it as you obviously have on your stance on the record books: relatively little.
If it’s not revenge then what could possibly motivate your need to “shame” these players by putting punctuation marks next to their names? You say yourself it’s there to shame them – you see it as some sort of punitive measure.
by Wreckard on Feb 13, 2009 4:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Here we go...
I’m not even going to waste an once of energy talking to you after this post.. Your genius is above my ability to comprehend.
by TheHawkRules on Feb 13, 2009 4:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Well that's been clear from the start
I was giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming you actually wanted to discuss your ridiculous fantasies about punishing the players who have wronged the sport in this egregious way.
by Wreckard on Feb 13, 2009 4:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Doubt! I posted again!
What? Are you crying?
Oh man… i would have spent time “discussing” things with you if you wouldn’t have been so rude. :*( Please, go post elsewhere…. I don’t care about people disagreeing with me, but if you want to go past that line… well… sorry.
I really, REALLY won’t respond anymore.
by TheHawkRules on Feb 13, 2009 4:53 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes I'm crying
I’m like the Indian in those old commercials
I cry a single tear every time I see something stupid on the internet
by Wreckard on Feb 13, 2009 5:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh.
Well, turn the monitor on and your reflection will disappear.
by TheHawkRules on Feb 13, 2009 5:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
you can't do that
because some and a lot of the stats were accumulated against other cheaters.
Do you want the record books to read, “Bonds hit 54 HR’s versus non-PED pitchers and 19 HR’s versus PED pitchers.” I don’t and we can’t ascertain the cheaters from the non-cheaters 100%.
by socalbob on Feb 13, 2009 4:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Response
“because some and a lot of the stats were accumulated against other cheaters.”
Hey man, I dunno… I don’t think we can say, because everyone cheated, then no one gets in trouble.
“Do you want the record books to read, "Bonds hit 54 HR’s versus non-PED pitchers and 19 HR’s versus PED pitchers." I don’t and we can’t ascertain the cheaters from the non-cheaters 100%.”
No, it doesn’t matter what I want. But I would love to see Barry Bonds stats and then see a * beside it. Then at the bottom of the page, read something like…
- - Players who cheated by using illegal steroids to enhance their statistics
Thanks man.
by TheHawkRules on Feb 13, 2009 4:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
"trouble" versus an "asterisk"
are 2 differnt things.
I don’t beleive you can asterisk any player’s stats without knowing whom those stats were accumulated against. You disagree as you think anyone caught needs to automatically have an asterisk. It’s okay, just my opinion.
The entire ERA is tainted and everyone needs to understand the context of the stats instead of assigning an asterisk against those caught using PED’s. It’s a lot larger picture than what any of us know.
We could debate this for hours on end—do pre-Negro stats also have an asterisk? Do players popping greenies have an asterisk? Do players taking acid and smoking dope have an asterisk? If stats are important to the person they can take into context the pre-1950’s, the ’60’s, the 70-80’s, and today’s game and see performance relative to their peers of that era. Is there any doubt that Bonds and Rodriguez would not be the greatest players of all-time whether they played in the 1800’s, early 1900’s, or 1950’s? I don’t think so.
by socalbob on Feb 13, 2009 5:23 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Gimme a *
I just think, during this era, if players were using performance enhancing illegal drugs… then a * should be added to their name in the record books.
I can’t really talk about the decades prior to the 90’s because I wasn’t around. But if MLB would take a much harder stance against illegal drugs during the time frame its going on, then players wouldn’t be so tempted to use them in the future. You don’t see as many players bet on baseball do we? No…why not? Because MLB did something serious about it with the Black Sox and Pete Rose.
Do you think it’s unlikely that a player was tempted to bet on a game, then thought about Pete Rose, and didn’t do it? The same hard nosed stance needs to be against illegal drugs as it is against betting on baseball.
That’s my opinion. If its not, then in 20 years, it will be something else. Some people want to just accept it and move on… but if people they know or care about, they’ll have a totally different opinion.
Thanks for being cool about the discussion.
by TheHawkRules on Feb 13, 2009 5:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I would say an asterisk
could be an option only with indisputable evidence on the player.
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
by Cubbie-Tim on Feb 13, 2009 6:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
you are welcome
we each have opinions and like to share our views. Doesn’t make us right or wrong. Just different. You can argue numbers all day, but you can’t make someone “feel” different.
I am not comfortable going down the “gambling” vs. “steroids” path. Fixing games for a financial outcome versus gaining any physical edge through increased workouts and quicker recoveries to potentially play better baseball is not something I see as apples to apples. I understand your point about eliminating drugs and taking a hard stance. If it were part of the rules of baseball and they tested for it and had specific outcomes to cheaters like today, then I would agree as there are specific rules in place for gambling on baseball. Fact remains Clemens, Bonds, and ARod (McGwire, Canseco, Palmeiro, and Sosa too) all played during an era when the PED’s were not tested for and had penalties in place for positive test results. It’s good debate, that’s for sure.
by socalbob on Feb 13, 2009 6:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
instead of asterisks, can you just use pink sad faces?
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
by Cubbie-Tim on Feb 13, 2009 5:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Haha
Or maybe just little needle symbols. lol
by TheHawkRules on Feb 13, 2009 5:59 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
a face
with two needles done to look like a skull and crossbone
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
by Cubbie-Tim on Feb 13, 2009 6:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
and the cheaters who cheat...
and get away with it have no asterisk.
really fair.
by tim815 on Feb 14, 2009 7:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
This is so stupid
the thought of changing them, the people feigning outrage over all this, it happened,move on…this people will never be held in the same light as Aaron or Ruth etc etc, so there is no need to change them.
Arod, Bonds, McGwire will all have a Scarlet Letter emblazoned on their careers for the rest of their lives, so that is their defacto punishment
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
by bren on Feb 13, 2009 12:41 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Not going to happen
And this article is complete BS. They not even have an unnamed source for the allegations.
This is a story on Foxnews.com without even a byline. It’s bogus.
by Josh77 on Feb 13, 2009 12:52 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Will McGwire get his single-season HR record back?
or does it go to Sosa or even back to Maris?
As for the following quote from Selig, does Paul Molitor, or others, get removed from the HOF for his admitted drug use?
“It was against the law, so I would have to think about that,” Selig told USA Today. “It’s very hard. I’ve got to think about all that kind of stuff.”
Enough with this already. Attempt to fix the problem today and tomorrow and quit looking into the rearview mirror.
"Every team will win 60 games, every team will lose 60 games, it's what the team does in the other 42 games that decides the season."
by flachimesa on Feb 13, 2009 12:56 PM CST reply actions 2 recs
The HRs were hit... and they'll never be forgotten.
The sport of baseball is a sport of numbers, more so than any other major sport in the US. We measure every great achievement in the sport of baseball by a number that’s attached to it. And that’s how we remember it.
You can’t hide those numbers… we already know them.
So, just move on, and add a citation to those numbers explaining the era of the game that they took place in.
Over time, those numbers will be broken by somebody else anyway… and new controversies will arise.
I’m sure players cheated in a variety of ways in the 40s, 50s or 60s as well. Do, you really want to start digging all that up?
I'm not going to even bother trying to update this sig everyday anymore... that's what the standings column on ESPN is for.
Updated on May 25, 2008
by SackMan on Feb 13, 2009 2:13 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
No "citation" is necessary.
We’ll know.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Feb 13, 2009 3:42 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
i would have to think very hard about it
does bud mean
a/ becoming dictator for life in the baseball record book is something he would deeply contemplate
or
b/ thinking is hard for bud
by tim815 on Feb 14, 2009 7:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think Bud
decide to come out, after the powers to be told him to, and decide that he might suspend A-rod. Why……………becauase know in one statement he stops anyone else from thinking maybe I should fess up and get it over with……..baseball does not want every player who used to come out and state that. If they did it would be a nightmare for the PR of baseball….who knew, when did they know, why did the coaches/owners/trainers not step forward………if a player thinks he will be suspended for coming clean they will take it to the grave and hope that no paper trail finds them
Let go cubs
by cubsfaninkc on Feb 13, 2009 2:12 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
What "powers that be"?
Presumably, Bud IS the “power”. Note, I say “presumably”.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Feb 13, 2009 3:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Under what authority
does he suspend A-Rod? If he did, an arbitrator would overturn it in two seconds. Bud agreed that test was supposed to be anonymous and that there would be no penalties. Is he now supposed to say “Just Kidding”?
There are rules that Selig must follow. He cannot legally suspend him. Any talk of suspension is just that—talk designed to make it seem like Selig is tough on PEDs.
by Josh77 on Feb 13, 2009 8:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Right.
The puzzling thing is, Bud has to know he has no authority to suspend (and even less to “reinstate” Hank Aaron as HR champion). Why he chose to make those his first public remarks on the issue is absolutely beyond me.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Feb 13, 2009 8:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
just curious
does the steroid test violate the good samartian clause in contracts, and if so what can be done in reagrds to that by the team owner?
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
by Cubbie-Tim on Feb 13, 2009 9:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
It's because he's full of shit
Desperately trying to salvage his legacy by placing the blame for something that he was complicit in squarely on the players.
He helped create a consequence-free environment where steroid use thrived while he turned a blind eye, now plays the sanctimonious victim when the truth comes out.
He is a truly deplorable human being.
by Wreckard on Feb 13, 2009 11:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Just once...
I’d like to see a reporter stop waxing nostalgic about the purty green grass and the sweet smell of peanuts and ask Selig why the owners never pushed harder for steroids testing.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Feb 13, 2009 11:55 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I sincerely hope that now...
with the evidence of this, the latest of Bud’s follies, that we can finally build a ground swell to get Selig out of office. If Selig is allowed to stay on longer, he will continue to ruin the game that we all love. If it’s not the ludicrous notion of suspending ARod for testing positive on an anonymous test from almost 6 years ago, then it’s making the ASG “count”, or it’s the idiocy of the blackout restrictions for televised games… To think it all started with Selig burying his head in the sand, as it were, as early as 1992, in regards to the steriod issue in baseball. I for one have had enough of this potentially criminal commish- I will no longer abide this used car salesman, this ass clown Bud Selig. I’m starting the Fire Bud Selig Now! bandwagon- who wants to join?
Jimmyeatworld
by Jimmyeatworld on Feb 13, 2009 4:35 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
in the baseball commissioner accounts
can we asterisk selig’s tenure?
by tim815 on Feb 14, 2009 7:59 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
wow .. lookit all the posts .. should I still delete it??
sorry, I just got back now .. I should have deleted it, but wow, did stuff get hot .. Al, you say the word, I’ll send it into purgatory ..
Well, Next Year is here .. and Jack's century's gotta end some time .. GO CUBBIES!
by cubnational on Feb 13, 2009 5:35 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Sorry
Sorry if I played a part in ruining your board. I just don’t have much tolerance for people so hateful, rude, and egoistical. Once again, I’m sorry.
by TheHawkRules on Feb 13, 2009 5:38 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
you didn't .. I'm just wanting to avoid the BCB Mea Culpa
.. I really don’t want to be redundant and post stuff that’s already been worked over. Seriously. I hate having to sort through multiple posts on the same thing myself, so I can understand the frustration factor.
I used the site search function and did a quick scan over the fanposts and fanshots .. but missed the one that immediately got nailed to the top.
Well, Next Year is here .. and Jack's century's gotta end some time .. GO CUBBIES!
by cubnational on Feb 13, 2009 7:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
At this point...
… leave it here.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Feb 13, 2009 5:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
This has been an interesting thread
I think everyone acknowledges rules were broken, illegal things were done, and generally weak people were involved. How they should be recognized and punished is what the debate is all about.
The Record Book – It is a collection of facts and figures. The Record Book does not and should not make judgments. It does not discuss a players state of mind or physical condition. We the reader of records might make some judgments based on other information that is not contained in the records. If the Record Book is the final say on a player, there would be no need for a HOF panel to decide a players worthiness for entry into the Hall.
Biographies/News Stories/Court Records – These books and stories contain information about the life and actions of a player. Hopefully they are more fact than fiction. From these sources can we form opinions on a players character. Perhaps the court of public opinion will be a form of punishment.
Employer (MLB) – The group that can punish a player in the form of fines or loss of employment.
Fans – The group that can punish a player (or MLB) by not paying for baseball related items including tickets to the games.
The Courts – The group that can punish a player if found guilt beyond a reasonable doubt of breaking the law.
The Hall of Fame – A place for the great men who’s actions and love of the game make them worthy of rememberance.
The Baseball Museum (Cooperstown) – The museum dedicated to the game of baseball where the events and accomplishments both good and bad are on display. It shows the history of the National Pastime.
I hope this stirs up some more good debate.
by Chodes on Feb 13, 2009 7:26 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
This is such a load of crap
If Selig really wanted to fix the integrity of the game, he’d have his official historians study the box scores and find all the game-winning hits steroid users and overturn those results. He’d invalidate all wins and saves by steroid-using pitchers.
If that resulted in different teams making the playoffs, he’d update the record books and demand any playoff shares be refunded and appropriate playoff shares be given. If, in an extreme case, we find out that Joe Carter or Luis Gonzalez took steroids, the members of the 1993 Phillies and 2001 Yankees receive credit as World Series champs.
Obviously, this is unworkable. But it galls me to no end that people blather about the integrity of the game without dealing with how PEDs affect wins and losses.
The integrity of the game is not found in a record book. The HISTORY of the game is, but not the integrity.
The integrity is found in the standings and no one gives a damn about those.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Feb 14, 2009 12:03 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
and Obama should tell banks to put money back into my account
because I invested with Bernard Madoff?
"Every team will win 60 games, every team will lose 60 games, it's what the team does in the other 42 games that decides the season."
by flachimesa on Feb 14, 2009 9:06 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
There is a such thing as reparations
This is simply reparations to teams cheated by roid users.
But no one cares about that. They’d rather worry about records set by people who didn’t play blacks, broken by people on speed and re-broken by people on roids.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Feb 14, 2009 9:14 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
It'll never happen...
as I tried to say before, but I’ll try and put it in here again
more politically connect…
Bud will never have the guts to remove or * Bonds records…
and even if he did Bonds would take it to court…
- Over? Did you say "over"? Nothing is over until we decide it is! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!
- Germans?
- Forget it, he's rolling.
by Endrick on Feb 14, 2009 1:41 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Well, Hank disagrees w/ Bud.....
“In all fairness to everybody, I just don’t see how you really can do a thing like that and just say somebody isn’t the record holder anymore, and let’s go back to the way that it was,” Aaron told the Atlanta Journal-Constitution on Friday.
Nobody cares about your fantasy baseball team
by carmen_fanzone on Feb 14, 2009 5:19 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Link
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/baseball/mlb/02/14/aaron.bonds.ap/index.html
Nobody cares about your fantasy baseball team
by carmen_fanzone on Feb 14, 2009 5:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
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