Soriano Steroid Speculation
Found this one that intimates Soriano might be one of the remaining 103 players, using his 2001-2002 statistical differences as "evidence" as well as his decline in HRs and games since the new testing programs began
I take umbrage with the writer hinting that those numbers are quite productive for a second baseman, when we all know Fonzie was a second baseman in name only
over 3 years ago
bren
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What's even more bullcrap is that
the 2001 in question was his first full season as a player and 2002 is his second.
The man hit 18 home runs and had 73 RBI’s as a rookie with a .263 average and follows with improvement in all areas. Willie Mays hit 20 HR with 68 RBI and a .273 average in his first full season in ‘51 (was ROY) and 41 HRs, 110 RBI’s and a .345 in his second full season, 1954 and was the MVP.
By this logic Willie F’n Mays is suspect.
Too many players show improvement over their first few full seasons. I’m not saying the Fonz is clean, but the stat line cited is evidence of nothing.
If you want to see a stat line that is suspect, follow the link. Link
There have been rumors about Luis Gonzalez before.
Unsubstantiated, and let me say I’m not accusing.
But at this point the only name that would surprise me if it appeared on that list of 104 is Greg Maddux.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
No such thing
as a “lock” at this point.
And I really can’t get worked about this at all. I really could not care less about steroids.
I'm not a diaper, so don't try to change me.
by halfblindcubbiegirl on Feb 13, 2009 5:10 PM CST up reply actions
Amen.
If someone feels the need to risk their reputation and livelihood for the chance to improve their performance, I am not going to hate on them for it. There’s far more important stuff to worry about these days than the “integrity” of baseball.
"They say we live and learn. Often what we learn is what damn fools we have been." ~Thomas Sowell
I have no idea of whether Gonzo used or not and am not
trying to point roid fingers at him.
I’m irritated that a single good year followed by a great year is suspect in Soriano.
Guys whose career trended one way (platoon, journeyman, contact hitter, speedster) over multiple seasons and converted into an all-star/mvp candidate in a different direction as a power hitting RBI guy deserve some speculation.
That said, the stats do not equal proof.
I'll point some fingers.
The statline, coupled with the fact that he was an early teammate of Ken Caminiti and Steve Finley in Houston….
And the fact that he really started hitting for power after being reunited with Finley in Arizona in 99-01 on a team where Jay F’n Bell was cranking 38 HR…. well, that’s just about good enough for me.
I mean, it’s possible that Luis and Finley and Bell weren’t using steroids. But seriously, that’s a lot of circumstantial evidence. It’s like charting a viral infection. Start with the Cammy-Finley Astros, follow the two of them marching arm-in-arm to San Diego in 1995 (and consider Wally Joyner’s anecdotes about using his teammates “steroid hookups”), then Cammy back to Houston and Finley on to Arizona in 99.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
I'd be shocked as hell if I'm on it.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Feb 13, 2009 3:09 PM CST up reply actions
I meant among MLB players.
I’m probably not on the list, either.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
You've got a baseball card, though
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Feb 13, 2009 3:56 PM CST up reply actions
Made by a member of this very website.
So who’s the guilty one?
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
Hmmm . . . .
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Feb 14, 2009 11:50 AM CST up reply actions
So fresh, it'll fool ya
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Feb 13, 2009 3:56 PM CST up reply actions
I'll admit it now.
I took HGH. This way I can’t be accused of it 10 years from now.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
I was prescribed a steroid
for 6 days to assist in the healing of bronchitis….I better request that they put an asterisk next to my name in the company directory
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
Only if you try to hit more home runs.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
in collections
that is called a “one call pick up”
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
The one who would shock me most?
Juan Pierre.
"I've never complained about it. I'm thankful to have a jersey." Mark DeRosa, 22 Aug 2007
Here's one from the 80's that would surprise me.
Calvin Schiraldi. His physique was charitably described by someone who had been in the Cubs’ clubhouse and seen him as “flabby”.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
Who Knows About His Juicing?
I just want Soriano to be healthy enough to play 140+ games this season. That’s more important than where he bats in the order. I can live with his mediocre defense, if he hits well.
"The big possum walks late." - Harry Caray
This is exactly why
the names of the other 103 players need to be released.
As it stands, rampant speculation can link virtually any player to that list. Who knows which players are on that list and which are not?
The players association has repeatedly failed their members who HAVE followed the rules. The MLBPA needs to stand up for these members. If they fail to do so, the players should fire their leadership.
As things stand, all players are assumed to be guilty. They have a choice, take action to reveal the guilty or all be lumped together as using PEDs.
Hey, it's a new century!
Disagree
A confidential test is supposed to be just that.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Feb 13, 2009 3:10 PM CST up reply actions
The problem is that
this “confidential” test is no longer confidential.
If the players association wanted to keep the tests confidential, they should have had the tests destroyed when they had the chance.
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on Feb 13, 2009 3:14 PM CST up reply actions
I go back and forth on this.
You have a point. And so does NittanyCub below.
The MLBPA did its players a real disservice by not destroying the results six years ago.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
They couldn't.
They were subpoenaed by the Feds less than one week after they received the results.
"I've never complained about it. I'm thankful to have a jersey." Mark DeRosa, 22 Aug 2007
Point taken, although they could have been destroyed in that one week.
In any case, if the tests were supposed to be anonymous, no names should have been attached to them in the first place.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
or never had a name listed on the test
just urine sample “X”
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
Why should player X have to suffer
For player Y’s transgression and the union’s stupidity?
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Feb 13, 2009 3:57 PM CST up reply actions
That's my point.
LOTS of players have been accused over the years. Don’t you think at least a few are innocent? What has the MLBPA does to protect innocent players?
Also, the players should fire the leadership of the MLBPA who for DECADES protected (and still do so) players who were/are using PEDs. They need representatives who are working for the best interest of all of the players, not just players that are using PEDs.
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on Feb 13, 2009 4:08 PM CST up reply actions
Further...
…. they need representatives who won’t stonewall every single attempt to clean up the game.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
This is exactly why the names shouldn't be released.
For one, it was supposed to be an anonymous test. And second, it wasn’t illegal back in 2003.
Take a look at Soriano’s physique, and then look at Bonds. Bonds’ head grows to the size of a tire and bulks his upper body. Soriano has always been a skinny, muscular guy. So, unless he did some ridiculous cardio after injecting himself with steroids, I really don’t think he took any. That’s just my opinion, though.
Who gives a shit about steroids now? This is such a half-assed attempt from MLB.
There's an interesting article in SI about it
It actually WAS illegal, just not well spelled-out. And, not every PED builds bulk.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Feb 13, 2009 3:58 PM CST up reply actions
I hate to say this
because, in my opinion, this is voyeurism in its purest form, but the names will come out over time.
Thank you
This is the thing people don’t realize. There were no tests, and no formal disciplinary policy, but it was a standing policy of baseball that the use of performance-enhancing drugs was illegal. I get tired of people saying it wasn’t illegal back then, because it was.
Team Speed Kills. All SEC, all the time.
Soriano once on steroids would hardly be surprising
C’mon. I can’t believe there is a single member of BCB who would be shocked to learn that Soriano was juiced in the past.
Theres only really one outlier
the 40/40 year, which was shocking b/c it happened while he played at RFK, after his 39 HR output he had 38,28 and 36 the next three years. So if he was juicing, he mustve been doing so consistently
Whats really eye catching is how his RBIs have plummeted since he came to Chicago
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
Part of that, of course...
… is that he’s missed a lot of games. For example, last year if he’d played 155 games (his average before 2007), he’d have driven in 108 runs.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
yeah, I shouldve noted that
i dont know how he had so many RBIs batting leadoff for a lousy DC team a few years ago
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
Half of the RBIs with the Nats
were from knocking him himself with home runs.
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on Feb 13, 2009 6:57 PM CST up reply actions
good point
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
Other members of the 40/40 club
A-Rod, Barry Bonds, and Jose Canseco
If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving an infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even considering if there are men on base. - Dave Barry
nice pick up
i will remain ignorant and assume many players did, but wait for evidence before accusing
It'd be no more or less shocking...
than just about any other power hitter, including Pujols. There are very few names in all of baseball for whom I’d be shocked to see on the list.
Generally when you're on roids
Don’t you actually have to have muscle? Soriano is the scrawniest power hitter in the MLB.
not necessarily
depends on the drug, I suppose. Some are more recuperative and allow for greater endurance, Roger Clemens wasnt a hulk of muscle neither was Palmeiro
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
An idea
I want a new law passed that any innocent player accused of being on steroids allowed to beat the reporter with his bat.
Barbara V. October 14, 1941 - December 19, 2008. A great lady who was a friend to all and like a second mom to her children's friends (she was my best friend's mom)
Yeah, that's a real good solution.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
Okay I was going overboard
Al but this speculation and people that think they are big guys for outing a player without any evidence has to stop.
Barbara V. October 14, 1941 - December 19, 2008. A great lady who was a friend to all and like a second mom to her children's friends (she was my best friend's mom)
by puckishcubsfan on Feb 14, 2009 1:00 PM CST up reply actions
Does that count as Roid Rage?
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
only if the bat is game-used and corked
oh, then they’re not innocent
How do people say that steroids weren't illegal in 2003?
It’s a drug. It’s ILLEGAL. If you have steroids on you, and get pulled over by police and they find them, do you get to keep them? No because they’re illegal!
by Cubs and Hawks fan on Feb 16, 2009 8:56 AM CST reply actions
Well...
… that isn’t quite right. You can’t legally possess them without a prescription. WITH a prescription, they are perfectly legal.
What people are talking about is that there was no BASEBALL penalty for a positive test in 2003.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
Again, key distinction -- no "penalty"
But the commissioner’s office issued at least two memos that I can remember declaring the use of performance-enhancing drugs in baseball to be illegal. Was there a specific penalty? No. But it was still against the rules.
Team Speed Kills. All SEC, all the time.
depends on the steroid
Anabolic Steroids that are used for muscle mass are a Class III Narcotic
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
It's still illegal...
…unless they had a Rx, which we all know no one didn’t. Maybe no baseball penalty, but that doesn’t make it right.
It’s funny how people are trying to justify this.
by Cubs and Hawks fan on Feb 16, 2009 9:25 AM CST reply actions
I'm not trying to "justify" anything.
Only pointing out the facts.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
My only beef with this..
…is that if you are going to release the name of A-Rod and throw him under the bus, you better release the name of the rest of them. What he did was wrong, anyone that takes that crap is in the wrong. And if you are not going to stay with the anonymous tests then they need to release all the names. On top of that, I like Ozzie Guillen’s idea. You test positive, you are done for a full season. If they really want to clean up this game, they gotta bring down the hammer.
Agree
Yeah, you have to release the other 103 names. I’m not an Alex Rodriguez guy, but you can’t just pick on him.
That's shitastic!
by CUBSfaninYANKEEcountry on Feb 16, 2009 7:19 PM CST reply actions
Strongly disagree
No names should have ever been attached to those tests. They were supposed to be completely confidential. While it was wrong for Alex to use steroids, it was way more wrong for anyone’s names to be attached to any of the tests.
And certainly there should be no penalties involved for anyone who took those tests. But anyone who tests positive in the future should have the book thrown at them. And I agree that their season should be over at that point, the day their positive results come in.
A second offense should involve banning them, imo.
"I lof to hit de home ron!"
Ugh. I think Bob Costas had it right...
…there simply needs to be an addendum to the record book stating that this was the steroid era, and the records stand — but only insofar as an intelligent observer can evaluate the numbers from this era in a different light. I think Costas said this on Mike and Mike a year or so ago, and it remains the only sensible response to steroids I have heard.
The names were and are confidental, and hardly exhaustive. There’s no way they should be released. The rampant speculation w/r/t steroids doesn’t do a whole lot of good seeing as, even if these names were public, there will never be finality; we’ll never know definitively was going into bathroom stalls with an armful of syringes over the past 10+ years.
"And heeeere cooome the pretzels!"
I don't think any "addendum" is needed.
I think it’ll be pretty obvious which numbers are tainted.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
+1
that would only work, if you put addendum’s on each era, such as “Greenies” or “White Players Only” et al.
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
Well, and an addendum is unnecessary
Because it’s not as if anyone is going to forget there was a steroid era.
“Gee, Billy, who was this Sammy Sosa guy?”
“I don’t know, Timmy. But his numbers are HUGE! How come he’s never talked about as one of the all-time greats?”
by Brett Taylor on Feb 21, 2009 4:13 PM CST up reply actions
Wow Billy
the numbers of that Bonds guy are huge also
you are right Timmy, but not as huge as his head
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
You can't work backwards statistically and have that be proof of anything
Especially when the statistics don’t even match up with what you’re trying to prove. His home runs jumped, sure, but it happened at age 26, as he was still developing. And they didn’t jump some huge, statistically significant amount – 12 home runs isn’t “damning” as he puts it.
But then to put it next to A-Rod, who we actually know tested positive, with whom see no increase, and make the conclusion anyway that steroids automatically equals a jump in home run production isn’t just reckless, it isn’t just stupid, it’s willfully ignorant.
Imjust remembered something
I apologize if this has been mentioned but Is it possible that Sosa was not only cheating by taking steroids but by also corking his bat…at the same time? Or, is that when Sosa got off the roids and started corking his bat to give him an edge? Like the roids weren’t enough so he wanted to cork his bat too. I’ll be right back, I’m going to try this and see if my arms fall off when i swing a corked bat while I’m juicin’.
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