Bleed Cubbie Blue: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Sports blogs for fans, by fans.
New Blog: Sounder At Heart for Seattle Sounders Fans!

On Steroids, A-Rod And Bud Selig

From time immemorial, baseball players have tried to get an "edge" on their opponents.

Actually, doing that isn't just limited to baseball. If you think about it, everyone does this in their own daily lives. Don't you? Don't you try to get yourself every possible advantage that you can in getting ahead? Even if, occasionally, you might skirt the "rules", whatever rules those are?

I'm not advocating doing illegal things, of course, and if you do illegal things you run the risk of being caught and punished.

That's essentially what happened to Alex Rodriguez when his 2003 positive PED test result was revealed last week by two Sports Illustrated reporters. You will tell me, correctly, that the results of that test were supposed to be private, anonymous and confidential, and you'd be right. And the various forms of outrage (or not caring, depending on your point of view) about A-Rod's steroid use are probably being voiced because he's Alex Rodriguez, the best player in baseball. Seriously -- if it had been revealed that Joe DePastino, someone who had two at-bats for the 95-loss 2003 Mets, had tested positive that year, would you have even cared? (Note: this is not an accusation. I picked this player because he played little, and not at all after the year in question.)

Why do we care so much about who did and who didn't do steroids? Part of it is because we have a romanticized vision of what baseball, sports and life was years ago. Were the players of our youth (or before that, if you're in your 20's and 30's) pristine paragons of American health and sport, doing absolutely nothing wrong?

Of course not. They wanted that "edge", too. If steroids had been around in the 1960's, some players probably would have used them. I would argue that fewer players would have done so, because the stakes weren't as high, and the gap between what the top earners make and the rest wasn't as large. Rodriguez himself, I think, stated the answer quite well in his confession to Peter Gammons:

"When I arrived in Texas in 2001, I felt an enormous amount of pressure," the Bombers third baseman said in the riveting TV interview. "I felt like I had all the weight of the world on top of me and I needed to perform, and perform at a high level every day."

Whether or not you agree with that, I think you can understand -- I certainly can -- the pressure on a 25-year-old player, held up to the standards and adulation that A-Rod was, and the huge contract he had just signed, and him thinking, "How on Earth am I going to live up to this?" Whether you think he should or shouldn't use PED's, or whether they're right or wrong, I can see how he might think, "I have to do something, or I'll let myself and everyone else down."

Barry Bonds, according to the book "Game of Shadows" (which is a must-read, again, no matter what your position on PED use), went through a similar, though not identical, thought process. Supposedly, Bonds was jealous of the attention that Sammy Sosa and Mark McGwire got during the home run race of 1998. Bonds felt he was the best all-around player in baseball at the time (and I agree -- he certainly was) and wanted to get the same adulation that was being heaped on Sammy and Mark.

Again, whether you agree with what Bonds allegedly did or not, I'm sure you can see the reasoning behind this thought process.

The real shame of people like Bonds or A-Rod doing steroids is this: the two of them are probably the best players of their generations. They were (and in the case of A-Rod, he still could be) first-ballot Hall of Famers before they did a single PED, presuming the timetable given for both of them is accurate (Bonds, after 1998; A-Rod, from 2001-2003). All they have done is tarnish their images -- not that Bonds had a great image to begin with; despite his great play, he is perhaps the least-liked superstar ever, due to his surly dealings with fans and the media.

This is all made worse by the feckless reactions of the commissioner of baseball over the latest revelation. My jaw dropped when I heard that King Bud's idea is to suspend A-Rod and "reinstate" Hank Aaron as home run champion. Never mind the fact that there were no penalties in place for the time period that Rodriguez says he did steroids, what exactly were you thinking of suspending him for, Bud? If you do that, don't you have to suspend the other 103 players who tested positive in 2003? How many of those players are no longer active? And should those names even be revealed? There are good arguments on both sides of that question; on the one hand, players were assured of privacy and confidentiality. On the other hand, why should A-Rod be the only one tarred by this brush? Bud would have been better off just saying this (a quote from the above link:)

"I am saddened by the revelations," Selig said. "What Alex did was wrong, and he will have to live with the damage he has done to his name and reputation."

He added that Rodriguez has "shamed the game."

And that's exactly right. A-Rod, who, despite being arguably the best player in the game for the last decade has had to endure taunts both at home and away for his huge contracts and a perceived attitude issue, now will have to listen to shouts of "A-Roid" (or worse) no matter where he plays. He made his choice, and now he must live with the consequences.

Even worse was Selig's knee-jerk reaction to "reinstall" his old Milwaukee buddy Hank Aaron as home run champion. Excuse me? Much as Aaron is an admirable figure, the fact remains: he hit 755 home runs, Barry Bonds hit 762. Were many of Bonds' hit with the aid of chemical enhancements? It seems so, though there is yet no proof. Those who acknowledge that "edges" were sought by players decades ago will say, "Well, did Aaron do greenies? What kind of enhancements did he use?" (Note: I am NOT accusing Aaron of doing anything wrong.) The bottom line is: the numbers are what they are. You can't take home runs away and say "this guy's the leader", because that would involve taking away the results of the games in which any "tainted" home runs were hit. Do you then take away the postseason appearances of the Giants while Bonds was hitting all those "tainted" home runs? Obviously, you can't do that. The very idea put forth by Selig was, and is, ridiculous.

Alex Rodriguez is 210 home runs away from surpassing Bonds' home run total, and will turn 34 in July. Depending on how he reacts to the pressure now put on him by the recent revelations, he's about six or seven years away from his 763rd homer. Unlike Bonds, you would presume that he'd have a normal career progression and decline somewhat as he approaches his 40th birthday. When he does pass this mark, celebrations will be held; perhaps Aaron, who will be about 80 years old, will attend -- I wouldn't expect Bonds to. And those of us around to note the occasion will know the history behind both Bonds' and Rodriguez' passing of Aaron's mark. No "asterisk" is necessary. We'll know.

Now, about revealing past names, and cleaning up the future: I go back and forth. It's not really fair for A-Rod to be the only one of 104 who was outed. On the other hand, what purpose does it serve to reveal the other 103 names? A large number of them, six years later, probably aren't even active players any more. What's the point? Revenge? Gossip? At this point, I think a stronger policy has to be in place and enforced, so that from here forward, both management (represented by Selig) and the players (Don Fehr and Gene Orza, in particular) need to be on the same side. Fehr and Orza's behavior throughout the attempts to get testing and penalties in place has been to stonewall and paint the owners as villains.

There aren't any villains here, only victims. And I won't pretend that bans or penalties are going to stop players from trying to get the next edge, to try to find the undetectable drug that's going to make them the next Bonds or A-Rod in terms of performance. It'll happen. It's human nature. Clearly, A-Rod's huge contract, much larger than anyone else had at the time, gave him the impetus to put pressure on himself to perform up to what he felt were the expectations created by the huge dollars. Here's where the risk comes in for the future generation of players, because under the current economic conditions, who's to say what might happen to major league baseball franchises? There are some, perhaps the Cubs included, that might be considered "recession-proof", but what of teams like the Pirates, Royals, Marlins? Are their fans going to continue to purchase tickets when they're losing their jobs?

I don't have much faith in Bud Selig to recognize and fix this problem; the man can't even lead enough to get his underlings to allow people to watch his product unencumbered on television rather than protect a three-decade-old blackout policy, so how can anyone believe he'll have the proper reaction to a much more serious issue?

In a way, it's our fault. We loved the 1998 home run race, which helped bring baseball back from the depths of the 1994-95 strike/lockout, but which cannot now be seen as untainted. When players discovered this, you can understand why they'd have wanted to do whatever they could to participate in it. Again, that's human nature. And yet, when it's discovered that players enhance in order to give us what we want, we turn on them. So, I'm not sure I have an answer. The bottom line is, players began doing this as a reaction to an age-old issue: "How do I become better than my competition?" Presumably, they are doing it for more than simple personal financial gain; they are also doing it to help their teams win. That's the hope, anyway, although I have my doubts. Sports reflect society, and we have seen people in other fields do the same sorts of things to get ahead (not drugs, specifically, but any "edge" they can get, legal or not). What we don't need is Bud Selig threatening a suspension he doesn't have the authority to give, or threatening to remove numbers from the record book that you can't change.

The bottom line is, we all love this game, for various and sundry reasons, and we all want our team to win. We just hope it's done on the level, honestly, just as we hope the rest of our lives are conducted that way. Go Cubs. Play ball.

3 recs  |  Comment 95 comments |

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

The way I see it

A-Roid
A-Fraud

A-Hole. That’s about right.

by ErnieBanks on Feb 14, 2009 10:24 AM CST reply actions   1 recs

Very well-written, Al.

I couldn’t agree more. We should be very careful how we proceed from here. I can’t remember who said it, but one of the best bits of wisdom I have ever heard goes like this:

“Most of the worst decisions we ever make are the result of an overreaction to something.”

"I've got an idea...an idea so smart my head would explode if I even began to know what I was talking about." ~Peter Griffin

by Goodie1969 on Feb 14, 2009 10:29 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Worth the read.

You wrote,

Now, about revealing past names, and cleaning up the future: I go back and forth. It’s not really fair for A-Rod to be the only one of 104 who was outed. On the other hand, what purpose does it serve to reveal the other 103 names? A large number of them, six years later, probably aren’t even active players any more. What’s the point? Revenge? Gossip?

I think part of the point is the attempt to break through the cloud of unknowing that hangs over the steroid era. How many people were using? Were there teams that were dominated by using, compared to other teams that weren’t?

The biggest frustration focuses, I believe on the interrelated nature of baseball stats. Are the stats of hidden steroid users tarnishing the records of clean players? For example, how many HRs was Ken Griffey kept from hitting in 1998 because he was facing steroid-using pitchers? Or, how much are the HoF cases of Ron Santo and Andre Dawson hurt by comparison to unknown steroid users? I could go on and on.

The problem is that even if we out all 103 players – we still won’t know. We won’t know who was taking PEDs undetectable by the tests, or whom Gene Orza successfully warned, or any of the players taking in the years before – and how long those “years before” go back.

The asterisk goes on the whole era and all the players and owners who were a part of it. The question going forward is – do you actually believe that era is over?

The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.

by DGU on Feb 14, 2009 11:01 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

That's a very good question.

And the answer is, “No, it probably isn’t”. That’s why someone has to step up in a leadership role and stop it in the right way, right now.

Unfortunately, we don’t have anyone in that sort of leadership role in baseball. Not in management, not in the players’ union. No one.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Feb 14, 2009 11:07 AM CST up reply actions   1 recs

Where there is a fundamental disagreement

Is whether it’s worth it.

I agree there are plenty of permutations here. How many minor league pitchers got called up in September, got rocked by some roid users, and were never heard from again?

We know that many players used simply to stay in the game, but how many players did they keep in AAA? And how many of those guys woke up, realized they were 26 and had been deemed “AAAA players.”

I think sometimes of Moises Alou, who finished third in the MVP voting in 1998 behind Sosa and McGwire. I wonder if he had any contract incentives for winning the MVP and I wonder if his union dues check bounced or something, because the union wasn’t working for him. (Then I wonder if he used too)

This is all valid, and I think, more important than whether or not Griffey deserves 10 more homers under his name.

But is it worth it to violate confidentiality, crush what little trust there is between the two sides and subject 103 players — some of whom may even be the victims of false positives — to the same scrutiny A-Rod is going through?

I say no. Not this far after the fact. Had SI broken this in 2004, I’d be more inclined. But too much has happened.

There is no such thing as an ugly female breast

by Worf on Feb 14, 2009 11:12 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

This is the problem.

The cloud of unknowing isn’t going away. Even Alex Rodrgiuez “coming clean” had no interest in waving the cloud away as much as re-swirling the mist for PR. From the same perspective, as much as I like Ryne Sandberg – his HoF speech was more of the same. Don’t talk about nameless guys who played the game the right way. If you want that distinction to have been made – name names and do it while you’re playing the game. Otherwise, why should Ryno get to be thought of as clean and separate from the era?

To be clear – no, I don’t want him to name names. I don’t want to hear about it at all from any side.

The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.

by DGU on Feb 14, 2009 11:22 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe Sandberg was blind to it when he was playing.

It’s possible. The speech was made eight years after he retired — and those eight years were, looking back, the “peak” of the Steroid Era.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Feb 14, 2009 2:17 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

How do we know that?

We heard “steroids” chants at Canseco in the late 1980s.

My fear is that Ryno waited until he was safely gone to speak up. If that’s the case, then he’s just as big a hypocrite as the rest.

You either respect the game or you respect the privacy of the locker room. You really can’t do both.

There is no such thing as an ugly female breast

by Worf on Feb 14, 2009 2:26 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't think that was Ryno's motive, do you?

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Feb 14, 2009 2:27 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I honestly don't know what his motives were

He seemed to be standing up for the sanctity of the game, but he also seemed to enjoy taking shots at Sosa, who supplanted him as the most popular Cub not named Banks.

All I know is that his chants of “Respect” will ring hollow if he knew anything back when he played.

There is no such thing as an ugly female breast

by Worf on Feb 14, 2009 2:35 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Ryno and Sammy were teammates for five seasons (1992-94 and 1996-97).

I think it may have less to do with popularity than with whatever Sammy might have been doing when they were teammates. And maybe he didn’t know then, but found out later.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Feb 14, 2009 2:36 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

But my point is this...

Forget Ryno for a minute. If any player comes out NOW and says, “Yeah, those roids are ruining the game!” then I want to know what they knew then.

Because usually when a scandal breaks, you hear about “respecting the privacy of the locker room.”

That’s fine. But don’t do that and expect me to take you seriously when you talk about saving the game.

Because there are plenty of reasons why players are against steroids. Number one, they don’t like losing batting titles, incentives, all-star appearances and even championships to guys using.

A lot of guys barely heard of the people who set records. They couldn’t care less about the history of the game and are just ticked off that they are losing to guys who they feel are cheating.

There is no such thing as an ugly female breast

by Worf on Feb 14, 2009 2:41 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Your point is taken.

Somehow, I don’t think that was Ryne Sandberg’s motive. He seems a person with more integrity than that.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Feb 14, 2009 2:45 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Fair enough...

and I hope you’re right. But I also know I will lose a LOT of respect for him if it comes out he knew.

He’s also in a position where he is molding young minds and he wants to be a manager. Someday, he could be in the position of turning the other way in order to gain a few games in the standings.

There will come a time when he might regret shooting off his mouth.

There is no such thing as an ugly female breast

by Worf on Feb 14, 2009 2:51 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I would hope...

… that Sandberg would have enough integrity to call out anyone he’s managing who’s doing that.

I suspect we’ll have the chance to find out.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Feb 14, 2009 2:58 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't think Ryno's perception of Sosa's popularity

.. had a thing to do with his public statements on the state of the game when it came to the juicing scandal. Not a darn thing.

Is it possible for someone in this jaded world to actually stand up and say that things like integrity still matter? Are we are all so freaking and terminally cynical that we have to read some subtext, some self-righteous agenda into the protest of a professional athlete when they call for fair play and true sportsmanship from a populace of other athletes who are all crippled by their loyalties and locker room omertas into various depths of duplicity and silence?

For all of his warts, foibles and failings .. of which we are all subject to .. Ryne Sandberg has spoken well of this issue, so well that it sounds almost too good to be true, that he’s not somehow HIDING something behind tough words and probing oratory.

Sorry, I’m not that far gone into the abyss of caustic criticism when people do that kind of thing and am willing to take a man of Sandberg’s stature at his word until he’s shown to be a hypocrite. The man gave us a homily on integrity and respecting this game at Cooperstown 4 years ago that was a Gettysburg Address for pro sports of any kind and one that deserves to be memorized by every Cubs fan under the sun.

Well, Next Year is here .. and Jack's century's gotta end some time .. GO CUBBIES!

by cubnational on Feb 14, 2009 5:47 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

Rec'd

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Feb 14, 2009 5:49 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I liked what Sandberg said.

I’ve always like Sandberg. Look at my id picture, after all.

The point is – I don’t see how you get to pull yourself out of your era after the fact – and say, “Oh, I, and a couple of my friends, we were above that.”

How do any of them get to rise above it? They were a part of the overall machine that at the very least protected users.

The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.

by DGU on Feb 14, 2009 7:07 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not saying Sandberg is 10 feet tall and bulletproof ..

.. nor above any kind of scrutiny.

You are 100% correct when you say he was a part of a baseball culture that wanted everyone to look the other way when the Vitamin Men came around. I’m just saying it’s possible that their Better Life Through Chemical stuff did indeed lurk in the shadows of the locker room and in hotel rooms far enough to where it was not well enough known to him personally to say anything about.

If that’s the case, and I’m willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, then I think he’s certainly got enough freedom to say what should about it. The mike at a HOF ceremony should guarantee that. By 2005, when Ryne spoke out, the fit had long since hit the shan .. and he said what he did.

I’m not looking up to Ryne as this infallible Defender of the Faith, but as someone’s who’s trying to keep us straight, to keep the Moral of the Story somehow in view as we point fingers, post on blogs and argue over a couple of brews and hot wings at a sports bar.

Well, Next Year is here .. and Jack's century's gotta end some time .. GO CUBBIES!

by cubnational on Feb 15, 2009 12:09 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Excellent work, Al

One thing to add and one major point of disagreement.

Re: Suspending A-Rod. Aside from the other, valid arguments, there is something else. It is asinine to punish the Yankees by taking away what is still their best position player for something he did as a Ranger.

Now, for the major point of disagreement.

I believe steroids and other PEDs would have been MORE likely in the 1940s-1960s. Here’s why.

Baseball owners held all the power. You were signed to a team and if you didn’t like it, you didn’t play. You signed a contract or you went home.

There are horror stories all through baseball history of players who won 22 games one year receiving pay cuts the next year because they “only” won 19.

Furthermore, the competition was much greater. There were fewer teams and fewer athletic options period. The NBA didn’t exist until the late 1940s and the NFL really didn’t come into it’s own until the late 50s. Golf and tennis were still amateur sports.

If you were an athlete, you could make good money one of three ways — baseball, boxing and horse racing.

So you had fewer jobs and more guys going for them. The employers controlled everything.

In that environment, if you waved a needle, pill, cream or whatever in front of the players and said, “This is good for 5 more homers or 3 more wins” they snap it up.

That’s my major issue with the steroid hysteria. There is a kind of retroactive sainthood applied to the men who played prior to the 1970s. (And I’m sick of the media acting like steroids came around in the 1985, by the way)

These were hard men playing a hard sport and they had nowhere near the protection today’s players have. They would have used and used often.

There is no such thing as an ugly female breast

by Worf on Feb 14, 2009 11:05 AM CST reply actions   1 recs

If they could have gotten them, I suppose you're right.

But your statement that “baseball owners held all the power” is absolutely true. The clubhouses wouldn’t have been “loosey-goosey” (as A-Rod so quaintly put it) in the 1940s, 1950s and 1960s. And the players wouldn’t have had the disposable income needed to buy all the stuff back then. Remember, most of them took offseason jobs in that era. Today’s players don’t.

Your point, which is mine, too, is that any player would have used any edge he could get, whether in 2008, 1948, or 1908.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Feb 14, 2009 11:09 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Response

It’s true that they might not have had as many chances to use. Owners did keep a tighter rein, but those guys were still on trains and in hotels (all had roommates) away from home.

And the offseason jobs actually adds to my point. They couldn’t stay in shape year-round, so a quicker fix would have been that much more appealing.

And I’m sure whoever was selling it would have made sure his clients could afford to buy.

There is no such thing as an ugly female breast

by Worf on Feb 14, 2009 11:13 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Here's the difference, though.

Society was different then; I think people were more “conformist”, for lack of a better term, in the 1950’s. There was more team camaraderie, more “do it for the team” instead of just for individual gain.

That might have prevented people from doing it.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Feb 14, 2009 2:11 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't know about that

The conformist thing I agree with, but I think that actually comes more from not wanting to be different rather than any kind of respect for “team”

Remember, this was in an era when a lot of teams were done playing meaningful games by July 4. I refuse to believe some guys were still all about team toward the end.

As soon as one or two guys did it, the dam would have burst.

There is no such thing as an ugly female breast

by Worf on Feb 14, 2009 2:17 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

A handful of teams were out of it early back then.

Isn’t the same thing true now? And what difference would it make now if the entire Pirates or Royals team suddenly started taking PED’s? Do you really think they would suddenly start winning 20 games in a row?

I think American society has changed in the last 50 years. Sure, maybe some would have taken steroids back then, and yes, I know many took greenies. But the widespread use of PED’s has, I think, more to do with the huge contracts (exactly what A-Rod said, trying to live up to his huge contract) than anything else. It’s an individual thing.

Players were less “all about me” 50 years ago. So was the rest of American society.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Feb 14, 2009 2:24 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

at the risk of sounding naive

can someone tell me what a “greenie” is and what effect it would have on a player?

by nmcubsfan on Feb 14, 2009 2:31 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

"Greenies" are amphetamines...

… in somewhat common use in the 1950’s and 1960’s as “pep pills”. They were supposed to give more energy to tired athletes (and others).

Like coffee on steroids, so to speak.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Feb 14, 2009 2:33 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

so......

other then being illegal because they contained amphetamines, it doesn’t sound like those were any different then the “energy” drinks that we use today. Heck I used one just a couple days ago to take my army PT test

by nmcubsfan on Feb 14, 2009 2:35 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Greenies are a lot different than Red Bull, I think.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Feb 14, 2009 2:37 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

way different

like the difference between tea and 100 proof.

"Truth does not do as much good in the world as the semblance of truth does evil," - Duc de La Rochefoucauld, Maxims, 64.

by Emelie on Feb 14, 2009 2:42 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

The idea is

that it’s a long season played in hot and humid climes in June, July and August and you need a pick-me-up.

Players have long periods of time when they aren’t doing anything. An outfielder might go three innings before the ball even comes near him.

They help you focus on those tired days.

There is no such thing as an ugly female breast

by Worf on Feb 14, 2009 2:36 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

And again...

I think that you’re underestimating just how much money was a part of the 40s and 50s.

When you’re facing a pay cut because you hit .310 instead of .320 AND when your salary isn’t enough to set you great-grandchildren for life, like today’s contracts are, then numbers mean a heck of a lot more.

I think you’re really looking back on the 50s with rose-colored glasses. Bobby Thompson had Branca’s signals, after all.

There is no such thing as an ugly female breast

by Worf on Feb 14, 2009 2:38 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Which was part of my point.

Getting that “edge” has been part of the game for decades — stealing signs, sharpening spikes, you name it.

I guess people want to draw a line in the sand. Maybe it’s been crossed.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Feb 14, 2009 2:40 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

This is the other problem.

There’s no way to know when the steroid era began, let alone when it will/has end(ed).

The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.

by DGU on Feb 14, 2009 11:23 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Anabolic steroids weren't even manufactured in the U.S. until the late 50's

It’s HIGHLY unlikely that there was any use of them in baseball until years after that.

You’re really grasping at straws to think not only that it’s possible that steroids were in use in baseball dating back to the forties but also that their use was covered up so thoroughly that there isn’t even a whisper of it to this day (except in speculative fan blogs, that is).

by bluekoolaide on Feb 14, 2009 11:40 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

If you actually READ the thread

You’d see we were talking about whether or not yesterday’s players WOULD have used had they had the chance.

Reading is FUNdamental!

There is no such thing as an ugly female breast

by Worf on Feb 14, 2009 12:19 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Of course...

now tell me when the steroids era began.

The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.

by DGU on Feb 14, 2009 1:02 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

touche

If you had to choose just one characteristic that would get you through life, choose a sense of humor.

by Clutche on Feb 14, 2009 1:06 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Another Group to Blame is

The Media.

I know they are doing their job but their job is to report the facts not express moral outrage. Personally, I’m sick of guys like Costas telling me how I should feel and that steroids are ruining the fabric of America.

by Chodes on Feb 14, 2009 11:16 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

I liked Joe Sheehan's suggestion

that as long as writers were going to keep suspected steroid users out ot the Hall because of the taint of the era, all writers from the era should be barred from receiving their HoF awards.

The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.

by DGU on Feb 14, 2009 11:25 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

How can Selig....?

Well, because Bud Selig belongs to the church of What’s-Happening-Now. He deftly turned a blind eye to teh steroid era while it was going on and only after public outrage did he turn his agenda into “cleaning up” the game. As I said earlier this week, he’s a sham and always has been a sham. He’s done more to harm the game than he has done good and he will continue to do so as long as he has the keys to the kingdom.

Who needs a stinkin' tag line? What are they for anyway?

by krummy12 on Feb 14, 2009 11:24 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Great job Al

"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic

by Cubbie-Tim on Feb 14, 2009 11:25 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

This a not a simple matter of MLB Rules!

Sorry Al but I vehemently disagree with your position. Your view on this issue with Nimrod is excessively polarized to the left of center. You are attempting to convey a tone to our friends that steroid users actions are actually insignificant and a small step over a gray line within the rules of baseball, similar perhaps to driving his car faster than a posted speed limit. This is not the case. Look up the Anabolic Steroid Act of 1990. Anyone using, possessing, or distribution these particular PED’s are in violation of federal law. MLB players are not immune to criminal prosecution under this act.
The players and baseball management are villians; the players for their capricious use of these substances and baseball management for failing to adaquately isolate the use of them from our national pastime.
While I agree with you that Nim-Rod has been the best player in the game for the past several years, everything he has ever touched is now tainted. We will never know what his true talents were in comparison to others throughout baseball history.

by cubssouvenirman on Feb 14, 2009 11:37 AM CST reply actions   1 recs

Here's a question...

if the reason steroid use is so bad is because it is against federal law, then why do you blame baseball and the players more than the feds who are less interested in stopping the usage than in grandstanding before the public when it comes to this issue?

Wouldn’t it be easier for the US government to stop steroid use in ALL domestic sports than for baseball to stop it with its more limited powers?

The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.

by DGU on Feb 14, 2009 1:25 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

The government

has done a done a remarkable job in maintaining a drug free America. Their credibility will forever remain spotless in my eyes.

If you like Selig's handling of the steroid issue, you'll love his choice for next Cub owner.

by tharr on Feb 14, 2009 1:43 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

And therein lies the rub

Law enforcement can solve or stop just about any crime. It’s just a matter of how much we want them to spend and how invasive of our privacy we want them to be.

The cops can throw $10,000 in taxpayer money at informants and 100 man hours to find your $1,000 stolen wedding ring, but no one thinks that’s a reasonable use of resources.

It IS a zero-sum game. The more law enforcement spends on getting rid of steroids — and let’s be clear here, this also means going after Mickey Rourke, Tobey Maguire, Christian Bale and all the other movie stars who bulked up to play roles — the less it spends elsewhere.

I personally don’t think it’s worth it to save a few digits in a book. Even as loathsome as I find Bonds, I find it obscene, the resources and time used to get him.

There is no such thing as an ugly female breast

by Worf on Feb 14, 2009 2:23 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

It's a bit more than that.

The possession of such drugs is illegal without a prescription. Now, you can make an argument that maybe it shouldn’t be, but as of now, it is.

Bonds, remember, is being prosecuted for perjury, not for steroid use.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Feb 14, 2009 2:25 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Absolutely

It is illegal, and I’m not arguing it shouldn’t be.

Lots of things are illegal. Not all are prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law and usually resources are the reason.

Take the Michael Phelps thing. The South Carolina sheriff wants to pursue this. Phelps is back in Maryland and the police there have said, “Sure, we’ll serve your arrest warrant for you, but you have to come up here to get him to take him back.”

The county where this is all happening has a policy only to extradite for felonies, not pot charges that’ll be a $200 fine. It costs more in transportation and man hours than the county recoups.

The question is whether the notoriety of nailing such a famous person is worth the extra cost. Does that send such a harsh message that it scares people off? Or, does it have the opposite effect, where the national media wonders what the problem is with those bubbas?

Law enforcement makes these calculations all the time.

I do not personally think it’s worth it to spend the time and money to clean up professional sports. Not for the reasons most people really want. They want revenge. They want someone to pay for St. Hank’s record falling to a loathsome guy. They want that guy making $252 million to get brought down.

That’s not what I want to pay taxes for.

I also get that Bonds is charged with perjury, and you could make a stronger case that perjury charges stand for something greater. You should face a penalty for lying to the court, because truth is what makes the courts work. Fair enough.

But the crime still stems from a wasteful prosecution.

There is no such thing as an ugly female breast

by Worf on Feb 14, 2009 2:33 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

Your point about Phelps is well taken.

I agree with you that the prosecution of Phelps for a minor misdemeanor is being done for PR value, not for any real “message” or penalty.

I did ask the question, what are we doing here regarding revealing the other 103 names. I suspect a lot of those who say “Yes” want to do so for revenge purposes.

Honestly, I’m not sure what the answer is. All I know is that something appears to be broken. How to fix it is the question.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Feb 14, 2009 2:39 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Right -

I’m not arguing for a war on steroids. I’m just sick of the hypocrisy that surrounds this issue – with senators grilling the same guys they just asked autographs from.

The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.

by DGU on Feb 14, 2009 7:10 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

Rec'd

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Feb 14, 2009 7:53 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree

I’m usually with you Al, but not on this one. Particularly when you start saying things like this:

In a way, it’s our fault. We loved the 1998 home run race, which helped bring baseball back from the depths of the 1994-95 strike/lockout, but which cannot now be seen as untainted.

Each person is responsible for their own actions, period. Not everyone does anything possible, including “skirting the rules,” to get ahead. Not everyone would have chosen to do steroids had they been in the same situation to make 250 million dollars. (Clearly, as not even all baseball players chose to do so.) Some people have character; others don’t. Those who don’t cannot (and should not) be explained away as simply a product of the system of which we’re all somehow a part.

No one is perfect, but to suggest that the fans are at fault for simply trusting that nearly all the biggest stars of their day weren’t cheats is to require a pretty cynical outlook. Sure, we have that view now because we’ve been burned, but to suggest we should have had it at the time (I was a junior in high school in 1998 for crying out loud) is unrealistic. As always, hindsight is 20/20. The players are the villains here and I’m not going to feel sorry for them for getting the public ridicule they deserve. The same goes for Fehr/Orza & Selig.

by Zonk on Feb 14, 2009 1:44 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

You're right.

Not everyone does that. But I think you hit on the key here: the system is broken. We have to fix it. What that fix is, I’m not yet sure.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Feb 14, 2009 2:26 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

That's essentially what I said, though.

I said that no matter what A-Rod does — and barring injury, he WILL surpass Bonds’ HR total — it will always be tainted. It doesn’t have to have an “asterisk” or other mark. We’ll know. That’s where Selig fails. He has a knee-jerk reaction and it’s generally the wrong one.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Feb 14, 2009 2:12 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

The title of this post implies

that Selig is also a steroid user. This suprises me becasue we have not seen any measurable increase in performance metrics during the course of his tenure as commish.

now where is that sarcasm button….

"There are no curses here...Games are won and lost on the baseball field" - Lou Piniella

by El Borto on Feb 14, 2009 11:42 AM CST reply actions   2 recs

I hope you were being sarcastic...

… because the title simply was supposed to tell what this post was about, not make any implications.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Feb 14, 2009 2:13 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Bug Selig is just trying to save his ass in this situation

He knew very well that this situation was going on. People were juicing left and right yet he did little to stop it. It was only when Jose Canseco came out with his book, Game of Shadows, and the hearings on Capitol Hill that caused Bud Selig to try to cover up his mistakes by trying to change history.

He wants to get rid of Barry’s record? Sure, hell I even want that to be gone, but you cannot just take away home runs after they were HIT. It would virtually be erasing history. Its something that sucks to have in the books, but quite frankly, if Selig handled this situation ethically back in the late 90s, early 2000s then he wouldn’t have had to worry about Barry’s records, because they wouldn’t exist.

Its too late now, and I truly think Bud is the main person to blame..

#34: You'll be missed!

by Chanman25 on Feb 14, 2009 11:45 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Bud is one of the main players to blame in this mess

But when I look at it, I can’t help but to put Gene Orza and Donald Fehr in the same pot as Bud. Instead of heeding the warnings of some of their members, they put blinders on to the growing minority of players who wanted testing, until Congress stepped in.

And if it’s true that Orza so didn’t want testing he was telling players when tests were coming up, it’s the most damning evidence of the lack of union leadership.

Unfortunately, as a collective society, we turned a blind eye to many of the problems now plaguing America, whether in the financial sector or on the baseball field. Selig, Fehr and Orza are all guilty of collecting substantial paychecks while failing to monitor the game.

I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg

by Trey2317 on Feb 14, 2009 11:50 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

true, not to mention, this whole A-Rod mess wouldnt exist

if the Players Association destroyed the tests like they were suppose to. Seriously I do not understand why those papers were not destroyed, what kept the Union from doing it?

#34: You'll be missed!

by Chanman25 on Feb 14, 2009 11:57 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Not the Players Union

but MLB that didn’t destroy the results. It was because the Feds subpoenaed the records and MLB thought they could be held in contempt if they destroyed the records.

by Chodes on Feb 14, 2009 12:00 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

oh ok,

thanks for the clarification

#34: You'll be missed!

by Chanman25 on Feb 14, 2009 12:01 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

They had two days, essentially.

basically, the government subpoened the results just a few days after they were finalized. This Yahoo! article provides a pretty good timeline.

The guts:

The results of the tests were handed to the union Nov. 11 and finalized two days later, according to the MLBPA. Players were informed on Nov. 14, a Friday, that more than five percent had tested positive and they would be subject to a full testing program in 2004. The following Monday or Tuesday, the union could have destroyed the tests, though the agreement said it had to do so in a "jointly supervised" exercise with MLB. Neither side acted quickly enough.
On Wednesday, Nov. 19, the San Francisco grand jury investigating the Bay Area Laboratory Co-Operative issued a subpoena for the results of the survey testing. Destroying the tests was no longer an option, and when the government raided Comprehensive Drug Testing in Long Beach, Calif., in April 2004, it seized the records from the laboratory’s computer. The union has fought the government for the records all the way to the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 9th Circuit in California but has yet to win them back.

I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg

by Trey2317 on Feb 14, 2009 12:01 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

thanks

#34: You'll be missed!

by Chanman25 on Feb 14, 2009 12:02 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

FWIW...

… Canseco’s book is called “Juiced”. “Game of Shadows” was written by two sportswriters from the San Francisco Chronicle.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Feb 14, 2009 2:13 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAmen

+ 1000

Well, Next Year is here .. and Jack's century's gotta end some time .. GO CUBBIES!

by cubnational on Feb 14, 2009 5:57 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Al, I don't think your understanding Bud's motives

I think he’s planning on convincing Aaron to unretire and get 763 home runs, thus indirectly installing him as the home run king, duh!

#34: You'll be missed!

by Chanman25 on Feb 14, 2009 12:01 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Hmmm.

Well, Aaron is only 73 years old. I guess he could hit 8 more homers…

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Feb 14, 2009 2:14 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Sheesh - did Ivy Walls...

…post this? It has some serious girth. Need to make a pot of coffee for this one. Be right back…

"Just win tonight" - derv

by derv on Feb 14, 2009 12:08 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

If something isn't banned or illegal.........

then using it to get an edge is OK in my book. Hell, the Cubs let the infield grass grow to 4" when Lou Brock came to town and used center field cameras to steal signs, so who are we to criticize others.

If you had to choose just one characteristic that would get you through life, choose a sense of humor.

by Clutche on Feb 14, 2009 12:09 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Pardon me while I stand and applaud...

There is no such thing as an ugly female breast

by Worf on Feb 14, 2009 1:14 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Rec'd

The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.

by DGU on Feb 14, 2009 1:28 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Applause added.

Well said.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Feb 14, 2009 2:15 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

That just about says it all.

Rec’d

"I've got an idea...an idea so smart my head would explode if I even began to know what I was talking about." ~Peter Griffin

by Goodie1969 on Feb 14, 2009 3:30 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Just a general note
If you think about it, everyone does this in their own daily lives. Don’t you? Don’t you try to get yourself every possible advantage that you can in getting ahead? Even if, occasionally, you might skirt the “rules”, whatever rules those are?

I’m not advocating doing illegal things, of course, and if you do illegal things you run the risk of being caught and punished.

The study of whether it is OK to do things that skirt the “rules” but are not illegal is called ethics. A society in which the only ethical principle is “Do whatever you can to get ahead, as long as it’s not illegal” is an abysmal society. I’m not wanting to be too hard on Al, here. I believe he, like me, would make a distinction between breaking “rules” and doing harm to other people or the environment. I’d just like to point out that discussing whether steroids were (1) against baseball policy or (2) illegal is not the end of the discussion.

Fontenot (fon-te-no): Cajun for "scrappy"

by zambranofan on Feb 14, 2009 1:42 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

That was exactly my point.

I wasn’t trying to be a proponent of "do whatever you can to get ahead, as long as it’s not illegal", only pointing out that many people do this. It’s human nature. Whether that’s ethical or not is a topic for serious discussion.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Feb 14, 2009 2:16 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Just do the right thing

Obviously the steroid issue in baseball is one of many nuances. People have numerous opinions of degree, blame and solution to the problem. If ARod were a banker he’d be receiving his annual supply of roids from Washington to protect the industry of baseball from collapsing in America. Meanwhile millions of Americans who have been downsized would still be unable to take their family to a game because they can’t afford the price.

While I do agree with Al on some issues, I believe that something must be done. Bud Selig doesn’t speak for me or the vast number of Americans that have watched the era of steroid use flourish under his watch. Again, I feel there is a parallel to the banking collapse which is crippling the world. MLB under Selig chose to ignore the problem because it was financially profitable to the owners. Only when Congress insisted did he pretend to take action. Think of the similarity to the Big 3 who flew to DC in their private jets while the country suffered. Consider Wall Street who demanded unrestricted billions of dollars while they refused to offer loans.

But I don’t believe a case for blame can be laid at the feet of baseball fans. Essentially we’re powerless to initiate change. The blackout rule is an example. The exclusion of middle America from policy making in an industry protected by antitrust is but another instance of the soverign control over the game/business of baseball by the very few.

On the other hand, ARod had his right to privacy violated. If this were a trial and his doctor or confessor or wife gave testimony, most would be appalled and, rightfully, he would be acquitted. There is a higher standard that we must maintain. For that reason I oppose his suspension or canceling his records. On the other hand, if Bonds is found guilty, he will have been given all his rights to a fair trial and I support the exclusion of him from the HOF and the deletion of him as the HR champion. I see it as a proper penalty for breaking the law in baseball.

Finally I go back to the subject line in my comment. While I agree on the subject of taking an edge, we all have to become dispassionate in deciding whether that edge is right or not. Letting the grass grow higher in Wrigley was an acceptable and legal edge. Stealing signals is an edge that has been used for decades. But corking bats and taking steroids are totally wrong and there is no justification for accepting them. The end does not justify the means. We must avoid that slippery slope or our society will suffer.

If you like Selig's handling of the steroid issue, you'll love his choice for next Cub owner.

by tharr on Feb 14, 2009 2:34 PM CST reply actions   1 recs

Rec'd

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Feb 14, 2009 2:40 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Baseball records are inherently uneven.

If DiMaggio was hitting in Fenway instead of in the cavernous power-alley of Yankee Stadium, he might have contended for the record.

If Aaron hadn’t played half his games at Fulton County Stadium (nicknamed “the launching pad”) he might never have gotten close.

If Cap Anson and Ty Cobb hadn’t spent most of their careers hitting a baseball that was about as tightly-wound as a balled-up sock, they might have hit more homers.

If Ruth had played for the Colorado Rockies, the career record might well be above 1000 home runs and as untouchable as Cy Young’s career win record.

The use of steroids will always haunt the legacies of Bonds, McGwire, and Rodriguez, among many others. The whole era from 1990-2003 will probably be known as the “steroids era.” But while we should work to eliminate steroids from the game, in my opinion they’re no worse than the dead balls they used to hit in the early twentieth century, or the fact that before 1919 you never knew if a team was paid off to throw a game, or the fact that gloves have steadily become larger and larger throughout the game’s history. Baseball is change, and for Selig to single out A-Rod as if he committed the most unforgivable sin of all time is scapegoating of the worst kind.

by mistersite on Feb 14, 2009 2:36 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Aaron's HR ratios.

While having Atlanta as his home park: 190 home, 149 road
While having Milwaukee as his home park: 280 home, 296 road

You could argue that had Aaron not spent all those years in Milwaukee, he’d have hit over 800 home runs and we wouldn’t be having this discussion. What if Aaron had been a Cub his whole career?

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Feb 14, 2009 2:44 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Look at some point...

Your home park is your home park. It works both ways. Maddux spent most of his career — and all of his prime years — at Fulton County and Wrigley. You could argue that makes him even more impressive.

People take that into account when they think about history. Someone who plays the majority of his career with the Rockies will have to be really impressive to get into the Hall of Fame.

However, I get your overall point, and have made it in other ways, that baseball has changed a lot more than many purists want to admit.

Story about Cobb though. I hope this is true. Supposedly, after Ruth start hitting all the homers, Cobb gathered the reporters before the game and said, “Gentlemen, I will be going for homers.”

The next two games, he hit some ungodly amount of homers and then went back to what he felt was the best way to play — bunts, timely first-to-third and steals.

There is no such thing as an ugly female breast

by Worf on Feb 14, 2009 2:50 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Opinions

Interesting opinions, both from the article and from the board. Steriods have given MLB a major league black eye, and it still hasn’t healed. Everybody who does love this game has been hurt in some way by all the this. This is something we all do agree on.

by TheHawkRules on Feb 14, 2009 2:57 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

I was all set to thank you for sharing these thoughts, but then

in the penultimate paragraph you write, “In a way, it’s our fault.”

wrong.

wrong wrong wrong

Viewing the McGwire/Sosa chase through the lens of time is completely unfair. You can’t in one paragraph tell the fans to forgive steroid abuse because it was rampant and then indict them because they now view what happened as tainted. It’s fundamentally hypocritical.

The fans had nothing to do with this.

Ballplayers made their decisions to juice and to deal with the fallout. Fine. Leave it at that. They’ll be laughing all the way to the bank with your and my money and if that’s how we value people then they truly are the richest on earth. Or most bankrupt. Depends on one’s philosophy.

WOXY.com - The Future of Rock and Roll

by Gibbon Jockey on Feb 14, 2009 5:26 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

From The Onion

#34: You'll be missed!

by Chanman25 on Feb 14, 2009 6:35 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Let's break out the asterisks

The single season home run record belongs to Roger Maris, the career mark belongs to Hank Aaron. They can put whatever they want in the record books but a clean athlete that wants to put his name into baseball posterity should chase those marks. Everybody knows that the marks that McGwire, Palmiero, Bonds, Sosa and A-Rod set are fake. They may have been talented players but their records aren’t worth warm spit.

by eamus-catuli on Feb 14, 2009 8:15 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

In retrospect.....

I took a lot of heat on this site several years ago, when the Cubs acquired Nomar, for suggesting that, in light of his muscled up shirtless SI cover, that he may have be a juicer. Any apologies…..Al???

by perseman on Feb 14, 2009 9:15 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

i get crap all the time

suggesting Prior was on something as well.

"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic

by Cubbie-Tim on Feb 14, 2009 9:21 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Circumstantial evidence...

If you start from a presumption that a healthy percentage of players in the late 90’s early 00’s were on the juice, and that they are not lining up to admit and incriminate themselves, there is probably not another player whom you can draw a stronger circumstantial case of juicing than Nomar. Exhibit “a” in the Sports Illustrated Cover. Exhibit “b” is his stats:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/g/garcino01.shtml

I was shouted down on this site at the time for suggesting as much……

by perseman on Feb 14, 2009 9:26 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

So let's see.

You want an apology from me because there’s circumstantial evidence about a player? Sorry, no.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Feb 15, 2009 4:22 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

with Prior

once testing started, he could not stay healthy from that season forward, his Popeye calves turned into chicken legs, and there were rumbling that USC had PED’s in the locker room more than once during his time playing there. Of course I have as much evidence as you have for Nomar, but we both have some logic behind our thoughts.

"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic

by Cubbie-Tim on Feb 15, 2009 8:18 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I strongly disagree

with “There aren’t any villains here, only victims”. I don’t care about the records and Bud Selig is a self serving jackass but A -Rod is NO victim. He is not some overwhelmed 25 year old (how he did not know what he was doing at 25 ???) who got caught is something beyond his control . His " confession" was a continuation of his lies and manipulation . His vicious lies against Selena Roberts ( detailed in another thread) continue. He gives a patsy interview to a friendly reporting claiming he only did steroids when with the Rangers ( Please e mail me if you would like to purchase nice metal structure that goes over the East River of lower Manhattan ).
In a more general view I don’t believe that it is OK to say well SO many guys where doing it and no one really cared is acceptable. Plenty of players did it the right way. Ask guys like Mike Greenwell and Randy Johnson who lost major awards ( MVP, CY YOUNG ) to admitted steroid users how they feel. Saying they are somehow just as guilty because they must have known about it and they did not turn people in does not cut it with me. I am sure everyone knew about it in a general sense but even in a clean player knew of a specific player taking roids I am not expecting to turn in him. To whom exactly was he supposed to report this ?, MLB was not doing anything and they were hardly going to the police. There is certainly plenty of blame to go around but there WERE victims and there are villains . I think baseball needs its version of a " truth commission". That is an investigation which gives full immunity for past misdeeds but requires the guilty parties to come clean so that the truth can be known to public. It is not about changing record books or pursuing criminal complaints but just as those who can not remember their past are condemned to repeat it , those who fail to acknowledge it will also be condemned to repeat it. There needs to be more exposure of what happened before baseball can close to dealing with it.

"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry

by Doggie Stalker on Feb 15, 2009 12:38 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Great Post!!

I think this is the post that really best summarizes how we feel and how how to put this whole ARod thing in perspective. I’ve been on the fence again about baseball, but this post helps me think about things differently. I’m wounded, but I think I can heal in time for another Cubs season. A great job!!

by jaredprebish on Feb 15, 2009 5:55 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

another commission?

Lord I hope you don’t mean getting the government invovlved more. You want to talk about sanctimonous jackasses look at the U.S. Senate. They screw up more than they fix. I believe the players union holds a large share of responsibility in this mess and i am a lifelong union member. You know they turned a blind eye to peds just as did management and ownership. Did players make bad choices absolutely…still you cannot absolve the"powers that were". They ignored it. Far as Selig making Hank Aaron the HR King again, he can’t do it the numbers are there like it or not and I’m not sure that Hank would accept it, he has that kind of reputation. What saddens me most is Maris’s record, one that stood and probably would have for many more years. It was done the first time on pure skill the second on “enhancement”. I almost think we need 2 record books one prior to the recognized era and one after. It seems to me there must be rigid and frequent testing from this point on and guys like Arod should volunteer for it .

by iowacubfan69 on Feb 15, 2009 8:54 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to Bleed Cubbie Blue, the Chicago Cubs blog for the SB Nation, created on February 9, 2005 by Al Yellon
Start posting about the Cubs »

Join SB Nation and dive into communities focused on all your favorite teams.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

66103_small
The Ordinary Wizarding Levels of Milton Bradley & the 2009 Chicago Cubs
Chicagocubs1914_small
OT: Big-Ten, Vista-Demolition, Bad-News-Bears, Anything-Goes-on-a-Weekend Game Thread
Jake_fox_small
Cubs Should Go After Rich Hill
Chicagocubs1914_small
Last Out to First Pitch – The 2009-10 Offseason IT'S HAPPENING!!!??? Contest
Small
More From the Cubs in Winter Ball

Recent FanPosts

Small
JT20 Dynasty League
Dscn2381_small
The Only CF That Fits for 2010
Small
Bradley For Millwood?
Fukudome_bleachers_small
The Top 10 Cubs Games of 2009
Sandberg94home_small
An argument for Mike Cameron
P272649reg_small
OT: How will the Big Ten wind up and who goes where?
Small
Should we trade him, or should we not?
Madduxflag_small
Starlin Castro Vitters etc LIVE Sat night

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

FanShots

Quick hits of video, photos, quotes, chats, links and lists that you find around the web.

Recommended FanShots

Gomez to drink your Brew, Hardy to eat your Twinkie
BP interviews Sam Fuld. Great read!
Who was the best MLB player born on your birthday?
Gary Matthews Jr.

Recent FanShots

Marlon Byrd to the Cubs??
Rumorville
Should Cubs pursue another lefty Cardinals CF
Job Opening with the Cubs
Cubs trying hard to trade Bradley
Victor Zambrano's mother kidnapped in Venezuela
Cubs GM Jim Hendry says Milton Bradley may be back in 2010, and called the outfielder's '09 season a "major hiccup"
Bradley 3 Way-Trade????
This ought to end any MB for Wells talk...
The incongruity of our perceptions and probabilities

+ New FanShot All FanShots >

It Is Only...

Cubs By The Numbers

Cubs By The Numbers is a history of the ballclub by uniform number, but the biographies help trace the history of our beloved team in a new way. For everyone who's a Cubs fan, anyone who ever wore the uniform is like family. Cubs By The Numbers reintroduces readers to some of their long-lost ancestors, even ones they think they already know.

Click here to order your copy, available now!

SPONSORS

Recent Stories in Ticket Exchanges

Yelloncard_small
Ticket Exchanges: Cubs Convention 2010
Yelloncard_small
Ticket Exchanges: General 2009 Ticket Exchange
Yelloncard_small
Ticket Exchanges: September 29-October 4 Homestand

Managing Editor

Yelloncard_small Al

Editorial Cartoonist

Toonmike_small toonmike

Contributors

Dsc_0139_small holy mackerel

100px-boisehawkscaplogo_small Josh77

Small shawndgoldman