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Josh Vitters came in a little lower than many of us may have expected at #51. Samardzija ranked #79. They were the only two Cubs on the list

9 months ago Outdoor14x48 MJMars 58 comments 5 recs  | 

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Alright then...

…now that this is in its proper place, let me just say thanks for posting. Nothing too surprising here, but I plan on printing this out and reading it on my commute home nonetheless.

"You've got to earn winning your division. We won more games than anybody in the National League last year, and we're going to have a target on our back, so we've got to be ready.'' - Lou Piniella, 2/17/09

by dat cubfan daver on Feb 24, 2009 11:35 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

PS WTH, I'll even rec it.

"You've got to earn winning your division. We won more games than anybody in the National League last year, and we're going to have a target on our back, so we've got to be ready.'' - Lou Piniella, 2/17/09

by dat cubfan daver on Feb 24, 2009 11:35 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I rec'd too

Let’s see if this list ends up as another Fanpost by day’s end.

"Every team will win 60 games, every team will lose 60 games, it's what the team does in the other 42 games that decides the season."

by flachimesa on Feb 24, 2009 11:43 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks

I really was surprised with Vitters at 51. Goldstein had him at 34. I forget where Law had him, but I think it was even higher. And when I looked at the top 50’s in the BA handbook, all 3 guys had Vitters in the top 50.

As far as non-Cub prospects….anyone else surprised with Brett Anderson over Bumgarner?

churchofbaseball.com

by MJMars on Feb 24, 2009 11:42 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

nope

Surprised? No. Anderson’s got good stuff and is close to being ready.

by toonsterwu on Feb 26, 2009 11:32 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Does anyone here remember why they didn't take Weiters?

I know he was looking for a really big signing bonus. Was it only financial concerns?

"That's a spicy meatball-a!" - Vinny Del Negro

by Juiceboxjerry on Feb 24, 2009 11:46 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

who's they?

You lost me.

"Every team will win 60 games, every team will lose 60 games, it's what the team does in the other 42 games that decides the season."

by flachimesa on Feb 24, 2009 11:51 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

They = Cubs

who took Vitters with the 3rd pick, leaving Wieters on the table for the Orioles to pick him at #5.

"Every team will win 60 games, every team will lose 60 games, it's what the team does in the other 42 games that decides the season."

by flachimesa on Feb 24, 2009 11:57 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Wieters

There was some concern about his size relative to being a catcher. The fear was that he would not withstand the rigors or being a catcher at his size. Not sure if that was part of the Cubs thinking but it was mentioned around draft time.

by dmlichte on Feb 24, 2009 11:54 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm sure someone with more knowledge will correct me

but I thought that Vitters was considered the guy with more potential upside. Witters was closer to the bigs, but after 4 years of college, the powers that be thought that he was near his ceiling.

by jerry morales rules on Feb 24, 2009 11:54 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

They were comparable with the bat

The biggest knock against Wieters was the frame behind the plate

churchofbaseball.com

by MJMars on Feb 24, 2009 12:08 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Vitters was the labeled the best pure hitter in the draft.

Derrick Rose-2009 ROTY Tyrus Thomas-2009 MIP...hope I'm at least half right

by CHCOWNTHECENTRAL on Feb 24, 2009 3:02 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Money was a big issue

Vitters signed for 3.2 million. Wieters signed for 6 million and was asking for a lot more and was represented by Scott Boras, although the Cubs have never really had a problem with Boras. A lot of scouts who liked Wieters better than Vitters were saying things like “I like him better, but not three or four million dollars better.”

by Josh77 on Feb 25, 2009 6:24 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Matt Wieters would have been my choice

In 2007 Jim Hendry understood that the Cubs were in a win-now kind of framework. Why then pass on Matt Wieters and take a 17 year old kid in Josh Vitters?

The near-unaminous opinion on Wieters is that he is going to be an elite player in the majors.

by BLou on Feb 24, 2009 11:58 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Yea, even at the time Weiters was considered the better prospect from what I remember.

Seems odd that the Cubs would let finances get in the way of signing the best guy, especially when they haven’t been hesitant to spend in recent drafts. So it must have been more because of other reasons like dmlichte and Jerry Morales stated above.

"That's a spicy meatball-a!" - Vinny Del Negro

by Juiceboxjerry on Feb 24, 2009 12:03 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

We have Soto

And although you should take the best player available, Vitters was almost certainly going #2 before KC changed there mind and went with Moustakas. Vitters was arguably the top HS hitter in the draft

churchofbaseball.com

by MJMars on Feb 24, 2009 12:07 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

On Soto

True, but at the time of the draft Soto was really not on the radar in terms of becoming the player that he is today.

It is an interesting question though. Had the cubs drafted Wieters, I assume he or Soto would be trade bait.

Eamus Ursuli!

by WGNstatic on Feb 25, 2009 8:21 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

or made into a 1st Basemen

"When two Whales Fight, many Shrimp Die" - Korean Proverb

by TheRiot Police on Feb 25, 2009 2:09 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Soto was a minor prospect

that is correct.

From what I remember, and I was following this pretty closely, the Cubs were never going to draft Wieters because of his bonus demands. If KC had drafted Vitters instead of Moustakas, the Cubs were going to draft Jarrod Parker—which wouldn’t be a bad pick since he’s sitting at #29 on BA’s list.

by Josh77 on Feb 25, 2009 6:27 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Yup

The heavy rumor late that year was that Parker was going to sneak up and perhaps top Vitters. Part of it was due to signing concerns, as Parker was viewed as easier to sign. In the end, it didn’t matter and we got Vitters in.

by toonsterwu on Feb 26, 2009 11:51 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

The Cubs didn't want to upset Selig

The sale rumors were going on at that point, and a year after we gave Samardzija a huge contract, the Cubs didn’t want to stir the boat that much, IIRC. That’s why Jarrod Parker snuck up there late, as some were concerned Vitters wouldn’t agree to sign. It was clear down the stretch that KC was going to opt for the better offensive talent in Moustakas, so it was Vitters/Parker. With the system being viewed as better with arms than bats at the time, picking up a bat was the preferred route.

by toonsterwu on Feb 26, 2009 11:54 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Cameron Maybin is going to be a stud for the Fish

if he can keep his strikouts in check

"Every team will win 60 games, every team will lose 60 games, it's what the team does in the other 42 games that decides the season."

by flachimesa on Feb 24, 2009 11:47 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Probably

Really needs to cut down on the K’s though

churchofbaseball.com

by MJMars on Feb 24, 2009 12:05 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

really a side note

but the Fish are an awfully good team that few people seem to be talking about. Wouldn’t surprise me if they won the NL East this year. Love the rotation, the bullpen has enough assets, and the offensive dropoff should be balanced by the defensive improvement, and if Hermida bounces back offensively, then the offense might not dropoff much.

by toonsterwu on Feb 26, 2009 11:50 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Vitters ETA is 2010?

that seems a bit early

Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.

by bren on Feb 24, 2009 12:23 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Could make some appearances in Sept 2010

Will not be in the lineup everyday until 2011

churchofbaseball.com

by MJMars on Feb 24, 2009 12:32 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

In April 2011...

… Vitters will still be only 21. I’d say 2012 might be a better guess.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Feb 24, 2009 1:13 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah Id imagine they'll want to delay his service time as much as possible

so it all depends on Ramirez health and production as he ages

Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.

by bren on Feb 24, 2009 3:57 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

and if/what contract extension he gets in the coming years

"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic

by Cubbie-Tim on Feb 24, 2009 8:28 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Ramirez is signed through 2011, with an option for 2012.

He will be 33 at the end of 2011. It’s possible he might stick around — as a first baseman, that would make some sense for a player with his skills.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Feb 25, 2009 4:48 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Josh Vitters has yet to play in A ball, yet some speak of the absolutely certainty of his major league destiny

I like Josh Vitters too. But for crying out loud lets get a dose of perspective. He has yet to even play low-A ball. It is impossible to rationally think of his major league ETA.

by BLou on Feb 24, 2009 10:05 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

thats why I was surprised they assumed he'd be up next year

However, I dont have any doubts he’ll make it to Chicago, for no other reason than they’ve invested a ton in him

Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.

by bren on Feb 24, 2009 10:34 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

You may want to purchase the book, "The Life and Times of Can't Miss Cubbie Prospect Felix Pie"

It was the bestseller follow-up to “My Destiny to Be Major League Star, The Corey Patterson Chronicles.”

by BLou on Feb 25, 2009 10:35 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Hey now...

…the conclusion to that epic tome has yet to be written.

Happy ST Opening Day, everyone!

by dat cubfan daver on Feb 25, 2009 10:46 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

That seems early for me as well

But … there are rumors that the Cubs may fast track him to Daytona, so in a positive scenario, there’s a shot that, if all goes well, he’s ready at some point in 2010. By ready, I mean more than a cup of tea in September.

I’m still learning towards 2011 as being more realistic.

by toonsterwu on Feb 26, 2009 11:49 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Interestingly

For those of you wringing your hands all winter over the trade of Jose Ceda, you should note that he wasn’t included in the BA top 100…and he was already shut down with shoulder aggravation a few days ago.

Who needs a stinkin' tag line? What are they for anyway?

by krummy12 on Feb 24, 2009 7:36 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

I saw that...

Kevin Gregg gets crapped on by this board, but he will be a distinct asset to the 2009 Cubs in their win-now mode. Jose Ceda is a prospect, that’s it. And now a prospect that has a bum shoulder to go along with being too damned fat in my estimation.

by BLou on Feb 24, 2009 10:06 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Part of that outrage was b/c many felt he couldve been used in a larger deal

Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.

by bren on Feb 24, 2009 10:35 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Right.

Even one-for-one, Ceda’s perceived value was higher than Kevin Gregg.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Feb 25, 2009 4:48 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

But obviously

perceived value doesn’t mean real value especally here where as expected Cubs players are frequently overrated.

by rlpete on Feb 25, 2009 8:42 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Perception can be by anyone.

I thought Ceda had more value. Maybe others here disagreed. He may never make it.

Just as the Cubs didn’t get value for Ricky Nolasco when they sent him to the Marlins, they may not have done so with Ceda, either. The jury’s still out.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Feb 25, 2009 8:43 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I'll defer to Jim Hendry and his front office team on the value of Jose Ceda

Jose Ceda didn’t even crack the top 100 prospect rankings, has been fat for a few seasons and now has a bum shoulder. And lets not forget that he came to the Cubs for the princely sum of a washed up one-dimensional Todd Walker.

Cub fans love to NOTORIOUSLY overrate organizational prospects. Jose Ceda for Kevin Gregg shapes up to be a very good trade for the Cubs, especially given our win-now mode.

by BLou on Feb 25, 2009 10:38 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

It's not surprising

Ceda’s a closer prospect. Look at the list and take a look at how many pure closing prospects actually made it on. Only two off the top of my head. Some may end up in the pen, but they still have the potential to be starters.

He’s still, assuming he’s healthy, a guy that, on paper, should be a dominant pen arm, and perhaps a solid middle reliever as soon as this year. This isn’t coming out of my mouth – check around, all the reports were fairly high on Ceda, and last year, his mechanics were improved and he controlled his weight a bit better.

Btw, early reports on the shoulder injury suggest that it isn’t anything more than early spring kinks for Ceda.

by toonsterwu on Feb 26, 2009 11:38 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Really?

But how do we really know what his “perceived” value was? All too often, the board places unrealistic values on guys that really are grossly inaccurate…i.e. Murton, Ceda, even Adam Greenberg. Irrespective of where Ceda’s official BA ranking is with the Marlins (he is 10th and while an exercise in frivolity more than anything, is not listed by BA to be their closer in 2012), the truth is there could be 100 scouts who like him and 200 scouts who dislike him or vice versa. You never know what these guys can command either one for one or in bulk until someone knocks down your door. Chances are, not many were knocking on Ceda for one reason or another. Some of those reasons, command issues, arm issues, weight issues, may be coming clearer right now. Just saying.

Who needs a stinkin' tag line? What are they for anyway?

by krummy12 on Feb 25, 2009 8:34 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Add Vitters

Add Vitters to the list of guys with unrealistic values. He has a chance to be a good hitter at the MLB level in my opinion, he just isn’t going to be a superstar.

Who needs a stinkin' tag line? What are they for anyway?

by krummy12 on Feb 25, 2009 8:36 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Well, considering very few players go on to become bona fide superstars...

…that’s a pretty safe bet. I don’t really see the point in declaring it a certainty until it actually happens but…whatever floats your boat.

Happy ST Opening Day, everyone!

by dat cubfan daver on Feb 25, 2009 10:52 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

This one I fully agree with

He does have some superstar potential, but the chances of him becoming a stud is one that I’m lukewarm on. Lost amidst all the discussion on Vitters is the fact that his power projection is very average for a 3rd baseman. Some peg him as a 25 homer guy, solid, but not exactly a stud offensive 3rd baseman, and he needs to be a stud offensive 3rd baseman to become a “superstar” since his glove likely won’t ever be elite (and this is assuming he can even stick at 3rd). Can he hit for enough average to compensate for the solid, but not great, power? Perhaps, but that’s not a bet I’m entirely sold on. He does have superstar potential, though.

That said, the betting money is ALWAYS that a kid won’t reach the expectations, as so few prospects do.

by toonsterwu on Feb 26, 2009 11:47 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't know what the whole perceived value argument is about

But my argument against the Gregg trade at the time (and my opinion on it hasn’t changed, but what’s happened has happened) was that

a) I thought Gregg was overrated. I said it back then, but I would’ve preferred signing Brandon Lyon as a FA (he ended up with basically the same salary) and saving Ceda than dealing for Gregg. There were other free agents out there.
b) I thought we had Gregg level arms already.
c) I think that Ceda will be ready at some point this year. You look at the changes last year – improved control, sharper 1-2 punch, better weight management, cleaned out his delivery, and I thought all the signs portended to a positive future, and a potentially positive future soon. I knew, with Cashner drafted and Marmol in the bigs, that it wouldn’t be with us, for the most part.

The idea of trading Ceda this offseason was always out there, so I wasn’t too worked up on that. Here’s hoping I’m dead wrong on Gregg.

On a side note, I wasn’t on BCB back then, but Greenberg was given high value?

by toonsterwu on Feb 26, 2009 11:45 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

just to be clear

i meant to say, i don’t know which perceived value argument is being referenced – whether it be Ceda’s value, Gregg’s value, Gregg relative to Ceda, value to the Cubs, value to the market, all of the above, or so forth.

by toonsterwu on Feb 27, 2009 12:59 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not sure what krummy12 is talking about.

IIRC, Adam Greenberg was never looked upon as “high value” by anyone. (Yes, Murton had plenty of defenders…Ceda, too.) In fact, I think the only reason many people took note of Greenberg in any sense was because of his tragic and freakish first-at-bat injury.

My sig line is out for jury duty.

by dat cubfan daver on Feb 27, 2009 9:59 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Greenberg

IIRC, was more of a pat on the back for a hard worker in the system type nod, akin to the Theriot call ups of the world. Always hoped he could make some noise in the minors again.

by toonsterwu on Feb 28, 2009 12:59 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

No

A quick check of the archives shows the first time Adam Greenberg was ever mentioned on BCB was the day he got called up. No hype at all—and I wasn’t doing the minor league wrap back then. Now after he got hit people were saying a lot of nice things and about how he might have been a #4 outfielder if he hadn’t gotten hit, but that’s not exactly strong praise and it was always tempered with an “If only.”

by Josh77 on Feb 28, 2009 5:39 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

A somewhat Soto-related item that caught my eye in this article...

…was the blurb on Indians catching prospect Carlos Santana. (Can you believe that’s really his name?! Oye como va!) His OPS rose .311 points from 2007 to 2008. I wonder whether a sudden offensive explosion like this happens to catchers more often than one might think. They probably spend so much time on defense and pitch calling that, sometimes, the better hitters just blossom later. Not stating this for a fact, of course – just a random observation, really.

Happy ST Opening Day, everyone!

by dat cubfan daver on Feb 25, 2009 10:07 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Interesting Theory...

I believe Piazza was the last player drafted in his class and it was only as a favor to Tommy Lasorda that the Dodgers drafted him.

"When two Whales Fight, many Shrimp Die" - Korean Proverb

by TheRiot Police on Feb 25, 2009 2:13 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Yup

He was a first baseman and they were under the impression they did not have to sign him. They did as long as he agreed to move behind the plate. And thats all she wrote

churchofbaseball.com

by MJMars on Feb 25, 2009 2:38 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't have any facts with me

But the anecdotal assumption with catchers has always been that they may take some time to blossom, so as long as the physical tools are there, sometimes they get the benefit of the doubt. For all the positive opinion I’ve had on Welington Castillo, he’s still an offensive AND defensive projection, something people should keep in mind. A lot of guys fail. A few years back, George Kottaras was decently thought of, and he flatlined at AAA.

by toonsterwu on Feb 26, 2009 11:39 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

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