Fukudome
by Cubbie-Tim on Feb 6, 2009 10:42 AM CST
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PrintI made this a comment earlier, but I personally felt this could be a good topic of discussion for us on its own. I have added some additional personal comments and feelings about it, and look forward to seeing the good, bad, and ugly replies.
Many fans are not including a multitude of x factors when they cut Fukudome’s throat. Factors that many fans would and have taken into consideration for other players.
I have repeatedly made these points both here and elsewhere about Dome, and they need to be taken into consideration. Put yourself in his shoes with these x factors, and tell me how you would do your first year on a job.
New born child………over seas from you
Surgery……………….ended the prior season early
New……………………country, people, language, foods, streets, driving on the other side of the road, traditions, work schedule, pregame routine (just to name some)
Fukudome has also changed his off-season work out to be more prepared for American style of baseball and living. He is a professional who has proven in the past he can play. He is a proud person who IMHO will be more to our expectations this season.
Fukudome was pure class thru it all. He did not one complain publically, never made any trouble in the dugout or clubhouse, and I believe deserves our respect and support as he takes the field in his second chance this season. If this season mirrors last, then sure he needs to go, but you have to give him a second chance based on the above IMHO.
The following is not directed at you, but in general……isn’t Fukudome hanging while praising Wood the pot calling the kettle black, right? How many disappointing seasons did Wood go thru, and we stuck with him, but after one-half a bad season for a foreign player we want to hang him and ship him out of town ASAP. That would not only be unjust IMO but would also be a horrible representation of the Cubs fans and Cubs organization when it comes to trying to bring in other free agents, both domestic and international.
Cub fans in the past have made excuses for Wood, Sosa, and Prior (for examples) but are also fast to hang others (Jacque, LaTroy, Dome for examples). I have seen fans complain about how Stone was too honest, negative, etc yet defend Lou when he is cut throat in an interview and overly blunt. It seems to me more and more that the personal opinions of the fan towards the player, coach, or announcer overrule the actual situation at hand and compromise the reaction given.
It is funny to see a fan go to bat for a player of personal preference who has under achieved or been thru a lot of injury plagued disappointing seasons, then hang another who was going thru an adjustment that none of us could make over night as well. This is the time we need to support him and show him the Cubbie love instead of hang him and further complicate his adjustment.
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Try editing this and putting in paragraph breaks.
It’ll make it easier to read.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
I tried before posting and after posting
and for whatever reason the breaks are not showing up
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
Could you try again?
I’ve never had a problem with this. You’re hitting “Enter” after the last line of every paragraph and then one more time (to create blank line), right?
We are a fever ... we are a fever ... we ain't born typical.
correct, and in the preview it showed the break
anyone care to login as me and try is welcome.
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
How can we be sure this is you......?
Fukudometer: Created 3/31/08 Wrigley Debut 4/5/08 WGN and Japan TV Debut 4/6/08 Sun Times Debut: 4/20/08 Coffee Table Debut: 7/17/08 (http://www.wearecubsfans.com)
it is me
I am at work, and as all can see working hard….
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
TRY
Copying into MS Word, editing, copying again and then pasting back into here.
Join the BCB Flickr Group: http://flickr.com/groups/bleedcubbieblue
did that
with both Word and Outlook, same results. In the preview it shows the break, but not when i click save.
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
I fixed the post.
I’m not sure why this happened, but it should be better now.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
thanks!
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
Good read
I personally hope Dome has a great year. A huge part of me thinks he’ll have a bounce back year and we’ll all forget all of this offseason rumbling.
However, I’d like to know what some of you think about this:
Do you think opposing pitchers adjusted to him better in the second half and that’s what led to his dissapointing numbers? Or did he slide due to those reasons stated above?
likely
a bit of each, the pitchers making better in game adjustments, and some of the above IMO. I was trying to get more into the off filed part of adjustments which most seem to not take into consideration. It owuld be differnet if the off field was DUI, Drug Charges, Perjury Charges, or other negative issues in his life, but not one were.
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
Fukudome did go through a lot last year
Problem is that the Cubs were so close to doing the impossible. A lot of people didn’t want anything to get in their way and Fukudome was a scape goat of sorts. Did he deserve it? Part of it. I mean you can’t say he expected everything that was thrown at him and you can’t expect him to be able to handle everything that was thrown at him. Still, the way he slumped and didn’t adjust his swing or approach says a lot. Ichiro and Hideki Matsui had to deal with similar issues and neither had the slump that Fukudome did.
I think the plattoon idea is smart. It allows him to get playing time and still not have to deal with the pressure of being an every day player. At the end of this year, if he really out performs, you can have Reed Johnson resigned as a backup or let go and put Fuku in center. Makes for a pretty good outfield. If he slumps again…well I don’t want to see Lou’s reaction. I imagine Fukudome will be on the first flight back to Japan
"If I were playing third base and my mother were rounding third with the run that was going to beat us, I'd trip her. Oh, I'd pick her up and brush her off and say, 'Sorry, Mom,' but nobody beats me." ~ Leo Durocher
Take into consideration
The production of many who came over from Japan their first season stats. I remember reading an article which showed that almost every one of them had a low first MLB season and then bounced back in yer two (might have been here when I was just a reader last off season).
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
Ichiro....
last season in Japan: .387 .460 .539
first season in the majors: 350 .381 .457
and each of the next two seasons his stats diminished before exploding for .372 .414 .455 in 2004
"I don't want to be a product of my environment. I want my environment to be a product of me." Frank Costello
by kalamazoo_cubs_fan on Feb 6, 2009 10:56 AM CST reply actions
Well he's a special case
He’s gonna be a first ballot hall of famer, so he may prove to be the exception to the rule. Matsui might be a better comp for Fukudome, he faired better after his first season in NY
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
I expect a major rebound.
Possibly not a strong as the first couple of months but much better overall season.
Now that he’s in CF, power is not mandatory and maybe he can concentrate on average and taking pitches. a .280 average, good OBP with 4-6 pitch at bats good enough.
387 .460 .539
I feel like an idiot but can someone explain what this means: .387 .460 .539 ? And what are good numbers?
http://www.mysportsscoop.com
Brings tears to my eyes
If you had to choose just one characteristic that would get you through life, choose a sense of humor.
I still expect nothing out of Fukudome
But I understand that he had to adjust last year to new everything. I think his best case is about .280/.380/15/80 which is pretty good, but maybe not 12 million good.
If he puts up those numbers while being the everyday centerfielder thats awesome, but I think its more likely he struggles to find his bat.
Let the Blaine Gabbert era begin.
I'm cynical on Kosuke figuring it out
I got to be honest and say I was appalled by his final three months of 2008. Major league pitchers identified a way to exploit his “run up in the batter box” style of hitting, and he had NO return answer. This is style of hitting that made Kosuke a star in Japan and is his trademark. So it’s not like he can make an extreme makeover to that swing. Rather it has to be about improving pitch recognition, better understanding the tendencies of MLB pitchers and making tweaks to his existing approach. But is that going to be enough to get the job done? I’m not so sure. Also, I think if he is able to make compensations and adjustments then he may turn out to be strictly a singles hitter who tries to spray the ball all over. As in a blend between Juan Pierre and So Taguchi. Which would not be good unless Kosuke is able to maintain a .400-ish type of OBP and can move into the leadoff spot.
The chances of us seeing Reed Johnson and Joey Gathright a lot in center field are good.
Hopefully RJ/Gathright in Center
is because of Dome’s lack of production and not a Milton Bradley injury
Let the Blaine Gabbert era begin.
Number wise
What I hope for…
.290/.380/10/70
What I think will happen…
.260/.350/5/45
The Wood/Fukudome comparison is inapt...
Let me first say that letting Wood go was probably wise, given the amount of money/years he wanted and his injury risk. But suggesting that it’s hypocrisy or pot calling kettle black to praise Wood and bash Fukudome isn’t accurate. The situations are apples to oranges.
For one, the difference is tangible. Wood was continually injured, which is a logical and understandable reason for him to underperform. It’s unclear whether Fukudome’s struggles are due to fatigue/emotion/culture or simply having deficiencies in his swing that teams figured out.
Also, they’re at different points in their career trends. Wood is coming off a great year, while Fukudome is not. Prior to last year, there were still plenty of people bad-mouthing Wood for not producing and suggesting we cut the chord on him. It wasn’t until he had a healthy (with regard to his arm) and very productive season that people wanted him back.
Further, Wood has a LONG history with the Cubs and the city, setting records and twice leading us to the playoffs as an ace starter. He has also shown a lot of loyalty to the franchise by taking one-year deals with the Cubs the last couple of years to try to make things right for the money he got while being hurt. Fukudome has no history with the team or the city to cause a rallying cry for his support.
I think sentimentality for Kerry Wood will dry up quickly in 2009
I really do. One, I think Carlos Marmol is going to evolve into one of the top 3 or 4 closers in the NL. Either that or he remains a dominant set-up man for one more season, while Kevin Gregg does a fine albeit unspectacular job as closer. I also think Cleveland will deeply regret dishing out $20 million guaranteed on Wood. I hope he has a great remaining career, but I have strong suspicion he will never replicate 2008 again.
I agree with this
With the caveat that there will still be sentimentality – but with a “it was nice while it lasted” feel. I think fans will remember fondly the KWood days, but as you say will be ready to root for Marmol and heck even be satisfied with Gregg. I am hopeful that he will have a good 2yrs with the Indians, but I don’t think Cubs fans will be screaming about his departure.
It's very possible...
I think it’s also very possible that Heilman becomes the setup man when Gregg’s pension for walks earns him the ire of Piniella, much like Wuertz and others before him.
I’m fine with moving on from Wood. I’m not as psyched about getting Gregg, but hopefully he proves me wrong.
Agree
but what if we had run him out for being injury plagued, causing him to under achieve years ago, instead of standing by his side and showing him the loyalty he showed us in return? Wood happened to be the turning poinit in not accepting a losing franchise, so he is special, I agree, but why not give a player, such as Fukudome, a second chance, just like each of us would want in our own lives (work, or personal).
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
I know alot of us fans
like to point to “intangibles” for lack of production, sure Dome has had to adjust, had a kid, etc… But to me the only point that carries alot of weight is potentially the injury thing…and even then its not as though he was horrible during the early part of the season. The drop off ocurred 3 months in, so could it have been a nagging recovery from the bone chip removal? — I kinda doubt it. I think plain and simple pitchers figured him out and he was unable to adapt. Will he rebound? I sure hope so, but BM has made brought up a good question:
So it’s not like he can make an extreme makeover to that swing. Rather it has to be about improving pitch recognition, better understanding the tendencies of MLB pitchers and making tweaks to his existing approach. But is that going to be enough to get the job done? I’m not so sure.
Me either – we shall see.
possible reason
for the drop after 3 months
how many start excited at a new job, in a new city, and after a few months get homesick. Not saying it makes the drop off a valid thing, as he is a professional and does need to produce (i am not and never will say not producing is ok, and that was not the reason for the post), but it happens to people in every walk of life.
the point i was looking at most is how people have in the past defended others who produced similar results, and then bash another in the same argument sometimes. Marquis is another prime example, a #5 pitcher who eats innings, and wins 10+ annually, and gets run out of town by the fans who rip him. I remember years when we would have been happy-go-lucky to have three pitchers match his results in one season. We as fans have been spoiled (in Cub fan terms) with a decade where losing is not acceptable, and have started attacking players at times without just cause. Not each time, but it has happened numerous times.
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
first of all
no one ran Marquis out of town. He was traded by the Club. If they’d listened to the fans, he would have been gone last year, not this year.
Secondly, I have no problem with the type of pitcher Marquis is. I have a problem with the type of pitcher he is getting paid the salary he GOT.
Marquis was highly frustrating to watch, and it didn’t help that every pitch was thousands of dollars.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on Feb 6, 2009 12:50 PM CST up reply actions
true
but you cannot blame him for being over paid. hendry went on a spending spree with Soriano, Lilly, Marquis and over paid two of three IMO. If you were in Marquis shoes, you would have signed as well. That is something to blame Hendry not Marquis for.
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
Question
this just hit me, Marquis was signed for less than Meche. Is it over paying when the going rate for the market is what was offered? Our expectations do not coincide with what the market demand is. Look at Manny and Dunn, the market is not what it was two seasons ago with the GM’s having a tigher budget today than two seasons ago (unless you are NYY).
Meche 5-year deal $55M stats
Marquis 3-year deal $21M
To compare them
Marquis 2007
12-9 4.60 ERA 191.2 Innings 98 Earned Runs
Marquis 2008
12-9 4.53 ERA 167 Innings 84 Earned Runs
Meche 2007
9-13 3.67 ERA 216 Innings 84 Earned Runs
Meche 2008
14-11 3.98 ERA 210.1 Innings 93 Earned Runs
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
I'm just saying
that the perception of Marquis was that he was overpaid.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on Feb 6, 2009 1:51 PM CST up reply actions
which is not his fault
Blame the man offering the $$$$ not the one who signed for it.
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
I agree to a point
Sure thing — being in a new job does have its own stressors that can affect performance. But in Domes case the facts do not seem to completely bear this out. If he had slumped in the beginning I would say that you probably have a more than valid point. And I’m not saying that some “intangible” mental issues did not play a role. But I think it is clear that his weaknesses were discovered by the pitchers he faced — and he was unable to adapt. And as BM mentioned, can adjustments to his already firmly implanted approach, be enough to overcome what every pitcher will try to attack next season? That is where it gets iffy.
Don’t get me wrong, I like to hope and to some extent believe that he can really turn things around, but as I said I will not hold my breath — and am thankful we have an outfield to fill in if necessary.
Didnt Pie
have similar problem with his inability to make adjustments, yet people want to say “we should have kept Pie” but Dome should be shipped out of town seems a little off base. Salary aside, one has not proven anything (Pie) except that he can’t make adjustments so he gets placed on the bench, while the other is a vet who should make the adjustments and brought patients to the plate that Pie didnt.
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
Pie
Has time to grow — make changes that could affect his overall approach. As you have indicated Dome is a “vet” with many seasons in Japan under his belt — his approach, I would suggest is much more concrete and settled.
But more importantly we didn’t sign Pie for 4 yrs $48M. Its alot easier to forgive a “blossoming” player with a minimum salary over the guy that we’ve committed big bucks to.
I’m not saying it isn’t right to not give him a chance and let others off the hook, your right in that aspect.
If we were
rebuilding Pie makes sense, in a win now mode, cannot have on the job training at the MLB level, which kinda goes against both Pie and Fukudome. I believe that Lou has confidence in the change of off season preparation by Fukudome and that made Pie odd man out.
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
Of course
The Pie argument is old-hat. I am not suggesting that Pie should have been given anymore chances, I was only making a point that his struggles were an easier pill to swallow — because unlike Dome he didn’t have a fat contact with the Cubs. Whether or not he has confidence, I believe if Dome stuggles again he’ll be riding the bench.
point taken
and if one of us were signing the check that would be a feasible argument, but it is not our cash (and ticket prices would not be different with or without his contract). Marquis same thing, his contract should not be the concern of us since we do not sign the check. It does have an affect on who we can trade or sign to an extent, but those trades and signings are nothing more than us playing fantasy GM until anything is confirmed by Hendry.
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
True enuff
We are not signing the check, but we as fans share the frustration that salary contraints can cause. See: Luis Castillo, IF, NY, NL Ballclub.
Its true that Hendry does the work of trading and signing FAs, but if we have unproductive ballplayers with fat contracts…as fans we can’t even guess the trades or signings because there won’t be any.
which
would fall on Hendry for offering too much, or in many cases backloading too much
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
Not arguing that
Sure it would fall on him, but would not change my expectations of a professional ballplayer. Lets remember, using your “new job” example. If you go to a job interview and your credentials wow the panel and you get the job — but then fail…you share the bulk of the blame — not the hiring officer. He is only going off of the information available at the time. At the time Hendry signed Dome that was the value that he was commanding from other ballclubs. Its not like Hendry just threw a huge number out there willy nilly. Sorry if Dome sucks next season I may be a little disgruntled with Hendry for the salary structure of the contract — but I’ll be much more pissed with Dome.
Im not arguing also
we seem to agree on a lot of the details
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
It has been put, just not sure where it was that there is
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
If Dome turns things around...
it could be one of those bonuses for the Cubs that they aren’t inherently counting on necessarily but could make them that much more better.
I think Fukudome’s adjustments and production in his 2nd year both offensively and defensively are the X-Factor for the Cubs in 2009.
"Why do you always point to the sky when Zambrano starts?" My girlfriend.
"You just wouldn't get it...it's a Cubs thing..." Me.
by cubs2k8isnxtyear on Feb 6, 2009 4:12 PM CST up reply actions
Emod?
Or perhaps Emodukuf? Doesn’t quite roll off the tongue like Onedec, sadly. :)
"They say we live and learn. Often what we learn is what damn fools we have been." ~Thomas Sowell
No one knows what will happen Monday on the markets either
but the odds are that the market will go up if the Senate and House pass the stimulus package and the odds are that it will go down if it doesn’t.
That coincides with the idea that the odds are that Fukudome will reclaim much of his real PECOTA promise for the entire season based on many things…..he will adjust he is an accomplished athlete.
It is good that he will have to earn back his starting spot unless there is an injury to Bradley which is also good for the team and Fukudome. As far as RJohnson he will play
Piniella: "This is a tougher job than I thought it would be, I'm going to be honest with you."
How long
Can the chinese market carry us?
But on to more important things, I think your assessment is on point, its a good situation to have Dome fighting for his starting role and he does have a proven track record – although it was in Japan.
Chinese market
For you, 50 RMB. Special friend price. Hello, hello? Looka looka. Cheepah for you.
Sorry . . . Shanghai withdrawl.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Feb 6, 2009 4:48 PM CST up reply actions
I hope Fukudome's Japanese work ethic has focused him this offseason
and that he is working his butt off with thousand fungo drills, conditioning coaches, the works. I hope we hear stories of him and Dempster running up the mountains of Arizona together with Lou following on behind in a pickup truck. For what we’re paying him, and for what the Japanese drive for perfection and endurance as it is, I hope he’s channeling it into a real comeback this year.
I realllllllly hope so. Because watching him live in his last AB during the last game the Cubs played at GABP in Cincy last September was absolutely depressing. He didn’t look like he knew what the word “adjustment” meant and had that weird, off balance loopy swing that showed every NL pitcher had him pretty much owned.
Well, Next Year is here .. and Jack's century's gotta end some time .. GO CUBBIES!
Where the hell is Dragon? I haven't seen him on here for a looooong time.
Evey Hammond: Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici. V: By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.
he was here briefly a few weeks ago
ephemeral moment ;-)
"Truth does not do as much good in the world as the semblance of truth does evil," - Duc de La Rochefoucauld, Maxims, 64.
I'll bet he'll return when the season gets started again.
At least, I hope so. I always enjoyed his posts.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
Yeah.
His posts really died last season along with Dome’s production. I really valued his posts and hope he returns, regardless of Kosuke’s production.
Evey Hammond: Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici. V: By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.
I predict...
…Piniella won’t be able to keep Fukudome out of the lineup after about 50 games.
Just a gut feeling.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
I hope you're right.
That will give Lou a lot more versatility, too, because he can then sub Johnson for Bradley on the days Bradley needs to be off.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
If i remember correctly
he had so much trouble with the slider last year, and i feel like if he can recognize that and work on his ability to lay off it, and hit it when its in the zone, his numbers will increase to respectability, as long as he can maintain energy throughout the year as well.
"This ball's got a chaaaaaance.....(YES!!! YESSS!!!!).....GONE!!! CUBS WIN, CUBS WIN!"
by FutureGroundscrewMember on Feb 7, 2009 7:56 PM CST reply actions
DOME.....
Only time will tell…..I am sure he has worked on what he needed to in the off season …He must feel terrible after the way the season ended . I think there is a fight in him we all hope will show in Mesa.
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