ARod Tested Positive for Steroids in 2003!
by bren on Feb 7, 2009 9:44 AM CST
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PrintNot really Cubs related, but a big story nonetheless
In 2003, when he won the American League home run title and the AL Most Valuable Player award as a shortstop for the Texas Rangers, Alex Rodriguez tested positive for two anabolic steroids, four sources have independently told Sports Illustrated.
Rodriguez's name appears on a list of 104 players who tested positive for performance-enhancing drugs in Major League Baseball's '03 survey testing, SI's sources say. As part of a joint agreement with the MLB Players Association, the testing was conducted to determine if it was necessary to impose mandatory random drug testing across the major leagues in 2004.
When approached by an SI reporter on Thursday at a gym in Miami, Rodriguez declined to discuss his 2003 test results. "You'll have to talk to the union," said Rodriguez, the Yankees' third baseman since his trade to New York in February 2004. When asked if there was an explanation for his positive test, he said, "I'm not saying anything."
Though MLB's drug policy has expressly prohibited the use of steroids without a valid prescription since 1991, there were no penalties for a positive test in 2003. The results of that year's survey testing of 1,198 players were meant to be anonymous under the agreement between the commissioner's office and the players association. Rodriguez's testing information was found, however, after federal agents, armed with search warrants, seized the '03 test results from Comprehensive Drug Testing, Inc., of Long Beach, Calif., one of two labs used by MLB in connection with that year's survey testing. The seizure took place in April 2004 as part of the government's investigation into 10 major league players linked to the BALCO scandal -- though Rodriguez himself has never been connected to BALCO.
So iwith Bonds and Rodriguez now impicated in steroid use, Hank Aaron's accomplishments become more impressive year by year.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
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Normally, I'd agree with you.
But it does seem that just about everyone is under suspicion now. How do you know Thomas is clean?
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
"What a difference a day makes..."
Not all that long ago when Sosa was a Cubbie he was regularly defended by Cubbie fans as “clean.” Now there are probably few Cubbie fans who’d speak out in his defense.
The Sox organization was certainly not a “steroid-free” zone (they employed Jose Canseco) but Frank in my opinion has a clean record. I do not believe that Canseco pointed out Frank as a user (funny how Canseco’s comments on who used has been vindicated). But there is other circumstantial evidence. His numbers were consistent. He was always a large man. In fact that was always a taunt of Cubbie fans, that Frank was a fat ass. The appearance of a “fat ass” is much different than most steroid monsters. And when Frank leaves sports no doubt he’ll grow even more large.
My view has been consistent, I believe Sosa used ’roids and I believe Frank did not. Has your opinion changed?
Just yesterday,
I was looking up his stats on baseball-reference.com cause I was wondering if he was as good as he seemed when I was growing up. In short, he was, if not better. As a kid I didn’t have much appreciation for patience at the plate and Frank had a TON of it. Led the league in walks 4 years and was in the top 5 in slugging 7 times and has a career OBA of .419. Amazing.
He was a football player at one of the best schools in the country
so hes always been a big dude, like Ryan Howard
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
Wow - anyone else hear that music playing in the background? ;-)
.
DrSoxFan: BCBers, I’ll be brief. The issue here is not whether we broke a few rules, or took a few liberties with our female party guests – we did.
[winks at Bud Selig]
DrSoxFan: But you can’t hold Frank Thomas responsible for the behavior of a few, sick twisted individuals. For if you do, then shouldn’t we blame the whole White Sox organization? And if the whole White Sox organization is guilty, then isn’t this an indictment of Major League Baseball in general? I put it to you, Al – isn’t this an indictment of our entire American society? Well, you can do whatever you want to us, but we’re not going to sit here and listen to you badmouth the United States of America. Gentlemen!
[Leads the White Sox fans out of the hearing, all humming the Star-Spangled Banner]
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Hate to spoil your creative rant, but...
I believe that Frank Thomas was clean and did not use steroids. However the Sox as an organization employed the chief priest of PED, Jose Canseco. Canseco was not the only player they employed that was exposed as a steroid user.
I do not believe the Sox organization was any better than any other organization in that regard. They probably were on par with just about every other baseball team. I thought I made that clear. Now go on with your creative writing exercise (rolls eyes).
Your view is clearly biased by your status as a Sox fan.
I’m not saying I disagree with your conclusions. However, you have provided no evidence for your claim, which is what I asked for.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
Bias or blinders?
Frank Thomas is no longer a Sox player, but my view on him has not changed from when he was. I did not believe he used steroids then. I do not believe it now. However, if you have some proof that he did use them, please present it.
IIRC you used to claim Sammy was clean? Do you still hold that view? (I did in fact at least partly address your question previously, however I asked this question, and you dodged it.)
You may think it’s bias on my part about my view of Frank, but what about your view of Sosa? Were you biased?
I did provide a bit of “proof” about Frank. But here you go:
* Appearance
* Stats
* Stance
Appearance, I already addressed this a bit earlier. Frank was always “large.” His growth was gradual and a normal progression. By comparison, Sosa according to Larry Himes (Sosa’s one time chief advocate), gained 30 pounds of muscle in the off-season. The rapid muscle growth in a short period of time caught the eye of Himes. Himes was so sure that he approached Sosa about it. I don’t think Himes swallowed Sosa’s “Flintstones Vitamins” line but many Cubbie fans did.
Frank Thomas’ stats are pretty consistent and while HOF worthy, they were not outside the bounds of what other baseball players had achieved in the past. Sosa? At 30 years old his HR stats spiked to beyond what any other player had achieved int the long history of MLB. The other players who were hitting at Sosa’s HR pace? All steroid users.
Stance. Frank Thomas was long outspoken in favor of strict mandatory testing. He in fact went against the baseball players union and tried to trigger the mandatory testing in 2003. Then too, as I previously mentioned, Frank has not ever been pointed out as a steroid user by Canseco, nor any other players to my knowledge.
If that opinion is bias to you, what about your views of Sosa? Was it “bias” or blinders that caused you to defend him when he wore Cubbie blue?
Steroids are used to heal injuries, to keep a person healthy, not just for power stats.
Not all those who have been caught using were HR hitters, look no further than my list below (list is not complete, just wanted to show some who were not HR hitters, since many make that mistake of connecting Steroids to HR only) to see that point validated, which means that using pure stats cannot prove or disprove anything.
I have not thought Frank to be a user, and regarding Sosa, until proof is brought forward, I cannot say he did. I can speculate he was on something, but cannot hang him without proper knowledge. Each player, just like in real world life, should be innocent until guilty.
We can sit here and give our opinions for or against any player being juiced, the same as we do after a trade, FA signing, DFA, et al, but that and does not mean we are right or not, it is pure speculation on our part.
Am I the only one who thinks Neifi was buying bad steroids, especially after being caught twice in one season lol
Date Player Team
3-Apr-05 OF Alex Sanchez Tampa Bay
11-Apr-05 OF Jorge Piedra Colorado
20-Apr-05 P Agustin Montero Texas
26-Apr-05 OF Jamal Strong Seattle
2-May-05 P Juan Rincon Minnesota
8-Jul-05 P Rafael Betancourt Cleveland
2-Aug-05 P Ryan Franklin Seattle
7-Sep-05 INF-OF Mike Morse Seattle
4-Oct-05 P Carlos Almanzar Texas
18-Oct-05 P Felix Heredia NY Mets
2-Nov-05 OF Matt Lawton NY Yankees
28-Apr-06 P Yusaku Iriki NY Mets
12-Jun-06 P Jason Grimsley Arizona
1-Nov-06 P Guillermo Mota NY Mets
7-May-07 P Juan Salas Tampa Bay
6-Jul-07 INF Neifi Perez Detroit
4-Aug-07 INF Neifi Perez Detroit
31-Oct-07 OF Mike Cameron San Diego
27-Nov-07 P Dan Serafini Colorado
6-Dec-07 OF Jay Gibbons Baltimore
6-Dec-07 OF Jose Guillen Kansas City
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
Mark Grace on Sosa & Steroids
"It’s not just Barry [Bonds]. There were a lot of guys doing it. I saw it with my own eyes. It was pitchers, it was catchers, it was outfielders, it was infielders. There was a lot of it going around. Shoot, looking back on it, I had it offered to me many times.’’
On speculation that players such as Mark McGwire and Sosa used steroids: ‘’Those are the red-flag guys, the guys that just made the sudden big, big jumps. Guys that showed up at the beginning of their career at 170 pounds and left at the end of their career at 235 pounds. A body can’t get that way naturally; it has to be enhanced with something. Sammy’s just one of the guys of many that are red-flag guys. Do we have proof? Nope. But you certainly have suspicions.‘’
Grace from the Sun-Times, March 2006
"Trust your eyes"
The … steroid scandal is mostly about the prevalent vice of denial…
As a classic baseball book like “A Day in the Bleachers” by Arnold Hano — or anything by Roger Angell — reminds us, the first tool for understanding baseball is the eyes. Trust your eyes, as Hano did at the Polo Grounds, and you can see that steroids were a huge part of baseball in the storied summer of 1998, when a pumped-up Sammy Sosa battled pumped-up Mark McGwire for Roger Maris’ single-season home-run record.
However, fear or cravenness or ignorance held far too many people back from acknowledging the obvious.
- Steve Kettmann, a former San Francisco Chronicle sportswriter.
nice finds
but where have any tests results been shown to back this up? Sosa and Grace never got along so who is to say Grace is not just implying this to be a jerk?
I gained 30 lbs (no steroids) over a six month period. It was called a back injury and being stuck in a bed the majority of the day. Metabolism dropped since I went from warehouse work to a bed. So it is plausible it can happen without steroids.
You can show me 100 write ups, but without proof it is nothing more than a he said/she said thing.
I know people who can say that Frank was a jerk when they met him, but who am I to just repeat speculation that was said, when there is no proof that I can give to support it?
I guess that is just my opinion, and if you think about it, people just posting everything they read or hear and saying it must be, happens to be the same way trade rumors wtih no truth behind them start, so why not do the same about steroids allegations.
I am not saying that Sosa is clean, I am saying without hard proof, you have to give him the same respect YOU would want, innocent until proven guilty IMO.
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
30 lbs of muscle?
Sosa gained 30 lbs of muscle in a short period of time. That’s not the same as being laid-up getting fat, or age related weight gain (fat).
As I said, Sosa has been publicly suspected of being a steroid guy by Larry Himes – a guy who loved Sosa! Larry also drafted Frank Thomas, but has never implied that he thought Frank used ’roids.
Of course there is no proof about Sosa. (Well there is the $10,000 of cash in the DR. Then there was his good friend – Manny Alexander – being caught with ‘roids and needles in his car.) But there is being honest and frankly admitting what you see with your eyes. IF you honestly look at what Sosa did in 1998-2001 along with Bonds & McGuire but think Sosa is clean, good luck to you. As Al said about me I put to Al and you, ’your view is clearly biased by your status as a Cubbie fan.’
Suspect
does not mean guilty, that is the point I am making.
I am not saying it is biased to my Cubbies, I am saying ALL players are innocent until proven guilty, something you seem to be missing in my posts.
Saying your opinion is someone did is one thing, saying that there is no way they did not do something, but having no proof of your allegations is called slander.
Am I saying he is not guilty of any of the rumors, NO. I have not been a Sosa fan long before he walked out on the CUbs, since he was a “me” player more than anything else. He has done a lot of wrong things to dislike him for without needing any steroid allegations.
Before accusing me of sticking up for him just because he was a Cub, get your facts straight. I could just as easily say you are only against him because he produced after being traded for George Bell. In case you still do not get what I am saying, let me say it once again. I am not defending anyone for using, jsut saying before you hang a player, you need to have proof.
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
Glossed over...
… Himes remarks about Sosa. You pounced on Grace’s remarks and basically ruled them out because he disliked Sosa. So what about Himes? Himes hardly seems like he has an axe to grind towards Sosa (the guy trade for him twice) but he suspected him of steroids.
And your comment about gaining 30 lbs, did you gain 30 lbs of muscle or fat? According to Himes, Sosa gained 30 lbs of muscle in a short period of time and that made him suspicious. Pardon me for thinking the same.
Bonds, McGwire & Sosa. I believe they all used ’roids.
you say Bonds, McGwire & Sosa. I believe they all used ’roids
and I would say that you are likely correct, but again without proof, you can only point your finger at 2 out of 3.
I did not rule them out, I was once again, stating a fact that you did not include in your conspiracy.
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
About Sosa....
… if he did do them, he covered his tracks pretty well, don’t you think? Unlike Bonds and McGwire, there was nothing ever directly connecting him with the juice.
Looking back, it does seem as if Sammy probably did use some sort of PED’s. I will point out that he was on track for a 50-HR season in 1996 before he had his hand broken with 40 games remaining in the season. That was before the alleged transformation, which supposedly happened in the 1997-98 offseason.
With the revelation of A-Rod’s use, I suppose maybe Jose Canseco was right after all. Who’d have guessed that?
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
Since when?
Is there direct evidence of McGwire using illegal PED’s?
Looking back, it does seem as if Sammy probably did use some sort of PED’s.
How long has this been your view?
Big Mac
Mark McGwire May 1992
Linked To: Steroids (Winstrol, Testosterone, Equipose)
The Story: During an FBI investigation codenamed ‘Operation Equine’ in 1992, officers turned up steroid dealer, Curtis Wenslaff. Wenzlaff’s training-session notes show he put McGwire on a mix of Winstrol V, testosterone and Equipoise. In Juiced, Jose Canseco claims to have personally injected McGwire with steroids. McGwire admitted using the Androstenedione found in his locker but it was not banned by MLB nor an illegal substance at the time.
http://www.baseballssteroidera.com/bse-list-steroid-hgh-users-baseball.html
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
In the buff...
Add his brother to the list of unproven allegations. And to McGwire apologists (and I am not one) those are unproven allegations.
yet
there is even less proof against Sosa. Either he was a genius in hiding every little trail, or he truly did not use any illegal narcotic to do so.
And we all know Sosa is not that smart.
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
Sosa show!
Was there any proof of “Raffy” using PED’s until the positive test came back?
Sosa’s HR run was before testing and Sosa’s performance dropped off dramatically once stricter testing began.
Sosa could have cleared himself by agreeing to be tested by Rick Reilly. But Sosa was so consumed with the greater good of the players union that he declined. Yeah, right.
The final story on Sosa has not been told. For years Cubbie fans bought the Sammy Sosa show hook, line and sinker and things didn’t begin to change until Sosa was caught cheating with the corked bat. Then the Tribune Corporation turned their fire on Sosa and now it’s more acceptable to question Sosa.
The final story on Sosa has not been told or exposed.
Wait.
You’re appointing a Sports Illustrated writer the arbiter of who’s juicing and who’s not?
Sammy might have been guilty, but I can understand why he wouldn’t agree to Rick Reilly being the judge.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
IMO had he done so
MLBPA would have had his ass in a sling.
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
+1
That whole Rick “I am judge and jury” Reilly thing irritated me to no end.
by madeindetroit on Feb 8, 2009 6:39 PM CST up reply actions
Why?
Sosa could have gone to anywhere else and got a test.
Why did it piss Sosa off so much?
Why did it bother so many Cubbie fans?
The reason is because it exposed Sosa and ended much of his BS “Flintstones vitamins” propaganda that the local media sycophants pimped for years and was so eagerly swallowed by many.
Here’s something else, why can’t Al bear to answer a simple question about when he changed his view on Sosa? It’s funny, that Al was fine on “badgering” me but dodges answering a very simple question himself.
Is the answer to that question really that painful?
However, fear or cravenness or ignorance held far too many people back from acknowledging the obvious.
fir the same reason
you cannot admit that everyone is suspect right now, innocent or not, including Frank.
Reilly wanted a story. Plain and simple, he was looking for a big story. Nothing more or less.
It is just like when a player is playing thru an injury and his error, or strike out costs a game, No writer will make the front page with “X is giving his best, fighting thru injury, while producing as best he can” but rather “X loses another game with his bad fielding/lack of hitting”
No matter what the results were he would have spun it against Sosa. If Sosa comes back clean, he spins it “Sosa proves his fellow players are cheats” making Sosa look like a jerk to MLBPA, teammates, etc.
Not to mention Union Contract most likely does not permit him to take such a test without going thru the proper red tape.
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
Everyone is suspect...
… and those pointed out as steroid user by Canseco, such as Sosa, even more so.
Rick Reilly story
First Sammy said he would go for testing when league and union approved not when some hack writer approached him.
Secondly he wanted to take him out to Joliet I believe nobody had heard of when there’s a company 3 blocks from Wrigley.
Barbara V. October 14, 1941 - December 19, 2008. A great lady who was a friend to all and like a second mom to her children's friends (she was my best friend's mom)
by puckishcubsfan on Feb 9, 2009 5:25 AM CST up reply actions
Does that matter?
I find it laughable that some people (not you, specifically) have taken posts that I have made here and elsewhere in the past and approached them as if they are immutable things, posted in stone and never changeable.
It’s always possible to change my mind. I’m trying to keep an open one on this topic as well as many others.
In terms of McGwire, I note the post below, as well as the andro that he was caught with in 1998.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
Set in Steve Stone...
Well you brought up that I’m biased about Frank because I’m a Sox fan. And certainly changing one’s mind is not bad at all. It’s admirable to change one’s mind when presented with a convincing argument.
But you used to defend Sosa, I’m curious though when you changed your view on Sosa. Was it after he left in disgrace?
That incident was reprehensible.
I have written before that it will take many years to sort this all out. It still will.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
Why the dance?
and so long to get you to answer this direct question:
But you used to defend Sosa, I’m curious though when you changed your view on Sosa. Was it after he left in disgrace?
What's the point?
Does it matter what specific date I took a look at this issue? Why are you badgering me about this?
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
Why are you so reluctant to answer?
Why so reluctant to answer a very simple question?
But you used to defend Sosa, I’m curious though when you changed your view on Sosa. Was it after he left in disgrace?
while throwing stones
your thoughts on bat gate (Albert Belles “corked” bat disappearing at US Cell.
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
Not sure your point or question...
You do know that Belle was an Indian when his bat was swiped from the ump’s room at then Comiskey Park.
which
did not answer my question, what is your thoughts on that?
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
did you
Ever support him as a Sox after that happened?
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
Support him?
I never owned anything with his name, or number on it. Wouldn’t of asked for his autograph.
I am not an Albert Belle defender or apologist (I don’t know if there are any and if there are it’s a very small group).
Albert Belle had a very good career though. If that’s support to you, then have at it. But then bear in mind that I would say that Sammy Sosa had a great career.
was just curious
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
Himes...
… encounter with the newly minted Sosa physique took place when he was GM, IIRC.
In 1993 (in the Himes-era) Sosa jumped from previous career high of 15 HR to 33.
But the run-in with Himes and Sosa could have taken place afterward, because Himes did stay in the employ of the Cubs after they fired him as GM.
“having no proof of your allegations is called slander.”
Actually, it isn’t. Slander is making a false and malicious statement about someone. In the case of the printed word, it’s called libel. In this case, it can not be proven to be either false or malicious, so it doesn’t reach the level of slander.
Another pet peeve of mine (not personal, Cubbie-Tim) is this notion of innocent until proven guilty. This is a shortened, misused version of “presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.” The presumption of innocence is a legal term which has nothing to do with the court of public opinion. We can hang anyone we so desire in the court of public opinion with no proof at all.
To wit: anyone with a functioning brain knows OJ Simpson is a double murderer, yet he was found not guilty in a court of law. Fair? Yes. Right? No. I think we can all agree there is something fishy about Sosa even without the proof that would be required to convict him of anything in court.
"They say we live and learn. Often what we learn is what damn fools we have been." ~Thomas Sowell
Ding ding ding
There IS no innocent until proven guilty except when they are trying to take away your freedom or your money via a fine.
The Hall of Fame doesn’t have to worry about it. Sponsors don’t have to worry about it. Fans don’t. Teams don’t. Friends and relatives don’t.
Sosa is guilty until proven innocent in the court of public opinion. That’s the price he paid for his millions.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
I am not disagreeing
I am jsut saying there is a certain line between sayign there is no way someone was not innocent when proof cannot be provided, and saying that he likely did. It is not those who say he likely did it (I agree with that) it is those who say he did, without a shadow of a doubt, but cannot prove.
and O.J. everyone agrees he was guilty, except the courts ruling, which to date I still cannot figure out. They had actual proof and still fumbled that ruling.
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
Well in OJ's case
a “jury of his peers” decided that since a cop once used offensive/racist language, they were going to get even by ignoring the evidence.
I guess in Sosa’s case, we’re more likely to give him a pass because an even more obvious cheater did him one better and subsequently broke McGwire’s record, then Aaron’s. Sammy will forever be in Barry’s shadow that way, because Sammy holds no important records (funny how we barely remember anymore that he out-homered Maris’ record three times because Bonds is the grand master of cheaters, while Sosa is a mere also-ran).
"They say we live and learn. Often what we learn is what damn fools we have been." ~Thomas Sowell
OJ will kill you...
O.J. everyone agrees he was guilty, except the courts ruling, which to date I still cannot figure out. They had actual proof and still fumbled that ruling.
Wrong. Everyone does not believe that. According to your logic, apparently saying that OJ is guilty is slander and should be forbidden because he was found not guilty by a court of law.
there is proof of OJ's guilt
where you have none for Sosa. You are, again, using part of a reply as you wish to, instead of quoting me correctly. You are piece picking, and trying to twist my words.
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
Slander against McGwire too?
There was evidence against OJ. There is circumstantial evidence against Sosa. People often do get convicted based on circumstantial evidence.
At some point down the road there maybe other evidence against Sosa – statements by associates – and even then Sosa apologists will be able to argue against every form of evidence. Even then Sosa will probably never be convicted of using PED.
BTW following your logic, you should not claim that Mark McQwire did anything wrong either as there are only accusations against him that he used illegal PED.
Seems we are dancing in the grey area
Slander is the oral communication of false statements that are harmful to a person’s reputation. If the statements are proven to be true, it is a complete defense to a charge of slander. Oral opinions that don’t contain statements of fact don’t constitute slander. Slander is an act of communication that causes someone to be shamed, ridiculed, held in contempt, lowered in the estimation of the community, or to lose employment status or earnings or otherwise suffer a damaged reputation. Slander is a subcategory of defamation.
The basic elements of a claim of slander include;
1.a defamatory statement;
2.published to third parties; and
3.which the speaker or publisher knew or should have known was false.
http://definitions.uslegal.com/s/slander/
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
Okay.
I should have said “deliberately false or malicious statement.” Using your supplied definition, however, I can determine the following about Dr. Crawdad’s remarks about Sosa. (Has it really come to this, that I’m defending a Sox fan?)
1) His statements do not meet all three criteria, as he does not know his statements are false.
2) Neither Sosa’s status, reputation, esteem in the community, nor earnings potential were damaged by these statements, as only those who visit this page will ever see them, and it’s fairly clear Sosa does not enjoy high esteem here anymore, plus he is retired from the game. Any damage he has suffered or suffers to this day is at his own hand.
"They say we live and learn. Often what we learn is what damn fools we have been." ~Thomas Sowell
You're welcome.
From now on, though, you’re on your own. :)
"They say we live and learn. Often what we learn is what damn fools we have been." ~Thomas Sowell
something else I have asked here and elsewhere.
Are Steroids illegal in all countries?
For sake of argument, if any player used them during the off-season, in a foreign country where they were NOT illegal and proir to being against MLB rules at the time, what can you say? Nothing!
Does it make it right, no, but it does change the entire outlook on it.
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
not a loophole
but an honest question, you have your opinion, but cannot prove anything, so instead of taking any of this serious, you are going to just continue to beat a dead horse.
Provide me proof of your allegations, or stop making them.
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
Or I could answer like Al...
… and say that you have offered no proof of Sosa’s innocence. Proof that Sosa could have provided when Rick Reilly offered to test him. Funny how quick Sosa’s cutesy, Flintstones Vitamins answer was exposed. Faced with scrutiny & real questions he was suddenly not so cute and happy. Funny too how quickly & vehemently Sosa’s apologists ran to his defense.
Anabolic steroids have been illegal in the US since 1990 without a prescription.
I wonder if it would have been OK for Michael Phelps to have been photographed smoking a bong in a country where pot is legal?
Innocent until proven guilty.
The proof of innocence is that you cannot convict on conspiracy theories, rumors, hear say, blah, blah, blah.
And your reply about Phelphs…please read the entire post I made (i.e. last statement), since it seems you did not do so. You will see that I flat state that IMO I was not saying it was ok, but legally speaking what can be done? Not to mention that last time I checked Weed is not a performance enhancer that would help in padding your HR totals (might be useful in a hot dog eating contest).
Like you said in America they have been illegal, but what about in Japan, Venezuela, Dominican Republic, and so on? These countries have different laws, and we cannot convict here based on our laws for what they do there. See Cock Fighting for prime example.
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
Hot dog
Michael Phelps has been suspended from competitive swimming for 3 months for using an illegal, non-PED.
A MLB player finding a country where a certain PED was not illegal would not have freed them to use them and then compete in MLB.
Look, I believe that Sosa used PED. That’s my opinion and there is circumstantial evidence for that opinion. Sosa never has proved his innocence either and in fact his performance dropped off substantially when testing began in MLB, further circumstantial evidence.
That’s my opinion. That’s what discussion boards are for, opinions.
As well stated above by “Goodie1969” it’s not slander, it’s my opinion. If you choose the ostrich defense or to attack me for my opinion, that’s on you.
I am not attacking
and if you took it that way, then let me say my bad. I was saying it is not right to make accusations without proof.
You give no proof that says he did it for sure. He dropped off after testing, yes and many others did that are not linked, it is called age in some cases, no help in others.
IOCC has a much stricter ruling than any other sport. And IMO a DUI should also be worthy of suspension in any sport, but that is a discussion for another day lol
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
Has he ever?
Every time I see that user name, I figure it’s just an attempt to get under some skin.
But then, given a good percentage of their fan base is always antagonistic, I’m not surprised by the bias. I state this because there are many of them at my work that act the exact same way.
Sweet Lou for Mayor in '11.
White Sox & Sox fans, a favorite discussion of yours...
Every time I see that user name, I figure it’s just an attempt to get under some skin.
Yeah, god forbid someone take a contrary opinion here…
But then, given a good percentage of their fan base is always antagonistic, I’m not surprised by the bias. I state this because there are many of them at my work that act the exact same way.
AS long as we are using quotes of movies
DrCrawdad, You want the truth, you can’t handle the truth.
Now IMO everyone in MLB is under a microscope (prior and current players). Steroids are not a enw thing in sports, just ask Lyle Alzado. But there is still a difference, between saying he may have and speculating, and saying he for sure did without any proof. I guess a better question to chase down for each of them could be what constitutes a performance enhancer, which ones we should allow, and which we should not allow. There are many performance enhancers that are 100% legal, and there are others which are illegal both in sports and by law.
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
False flag...
Lyle Alzado died from a brain tumor at 43 years old. Alzado claimed that steroid abuse led to his illness. The media ran with it and now many people believe that Alzado died from using steroids.
Steroids causing a brain tumor? That’s beyond speculation.
Dumb Ass
as I said “Steroids are not a NEW think in sports, ask Lyle Alzado”
does that get thru your ignorance what I was saying now? It is not a new thing in sports, did not start all of a sudden in the laste 90’s. I never said he died from Steroids, but he was an admitted user long before any of this hapapned.
Once again, you have found a way to take what I say, and twist it to how you wish it to be, not what I said.
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
Easy there...
I’m merely stating the facts about Lyle Alzado’s death.
Now go back to “not attacking” me…
I said ignorance and Dumb Ass
Strictly because you continue twist my words, and incorrectly paraphrase me.
You have read enough of my posts here in this thread to be able to properly imply what I have said or am trying to say, yet you continue to not do so.
I agree there is a good chance Sosa was guilty, and Frank may have been. Not due to his being big, but Frank had some injuries towards the end of his time with the Sox, and it is possible he used them to help heal at one time or another. I am not saying they are both innocent or guilty, and would say Frank likely is not, but the same theories can apply to Frank as Sosa but for different speculated reasons.
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
for the record...
I wasn’t trying to say that you claimed nor did I quote you as saying that Lyle Alzado’s death was from steroids. I made a statement of fact in response to your bringing up his name. Perhaps I should have stated it more clearly.
the "false flag"
is what made it look (to me) like you were doing such, no prob, its all good.
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
Of course
Of course we have idiots who think the only reason you have achillies problems is steroids (remember the idiots when Prior had his achillies problem)
And then the morons who think that Soto is on steroids because he improved as a 24 year old player.
Barbara V. October 14, 1941 - December 19, 2008. A great lady who was a friend to all and like a second mom to her children's friends (she was my best friend's mom)
by puckishcubsfan on Feb 9, 2009 5:28 AM CST up reply actions
I honestly think now
Unless a player has tested positive for steroids or stated that he has (why would he), you cannot say that he has done them. You can speculate all you want, but if you have no legit facts or sources to state otherwise, then you have nothing to work with. Sure players had spikes in numbers, but whose to say it wasn’t natural? I mean I jump the gun on lots of players, but this is the only way I see..
Erm, well if we are going to call Milton Bradley nicknames, mine is Fischer Price: yes, you heard it here first..
If I remember correctly
he did volunteer to talk to Mitchell for his report and advocated drug testing long before it started. Of course then I think about Palmiero and realize that any player may have been doing it.
by LT on Feb 7, 2009 9:04 PM CST up reply actions
Frank
Frank Thomas despite his Soxdom for most of his career is one of my favorite non Cubs of all time.
Honestly he would be the biggest shock to me almost of all of MLB if it came out he was on steroids.
I worked for Big Frank Enterprises as a temp for a few months. Nice person and he paid well over normal for the skills. He wrote me a very nice letter of reference when I left understandably didn’t want to give out his personal phone number.
A story I have to tell.
When I was there the other lady’s mom had a massive heart attack in Texas. She didn’t have two pennies to put together. She left the office to collect herself and when she came back a plane ticket to go be with her mother was on her desk along with a note saying she would be paid for the time she needed to be off. Her mom was okay and she was gone for about 2 weeks.
Barbara V. October 14, 1941 - December 19, 2008. A great lady who was a friend to all and like a second mom to her children's friends (she was my best friend's mom)
by puckishcubsfan on Feb 9, 2009 1:22 PM CST up reply actions
Another plug
I recommend this documentary. I had one view going into the movie, and came away questioning some of the views I had previous to viewing it.
MLB has lost creadibility
Listening to some of the coverage of the recent Bonds stuff, it was mentioned that the tests that returned a positive on Bonds was taken from MLB. The sport tested Bonds, all of their results came back negative. Then the same samples were sent to the UCLA lab and they came back positive. If true, this shows that MLB’s testing was simply a sham and that the sport just wanted it to look like they were going after players when they really wanted no one showing a positive.
The fact remains that beyond this, what players are using now will not return a positive. MLB still does not test for HGH as it requires a blood test and MLB only takes urine samples. Further with the money players are earning and therefor able to pay for designer performance enhancers, they will always be able to stay ahead of the testers…
… but I guess that doesn’t matter if the sport has little interest in actually having an honest process. IMO its time for Selig to go.
Does anyone test for HGH
I dont think the Olympics even do that yet, and there are plenty of people who would say HGH isnt a PED, rather its simply a recuperative drug.
If baseball players are using these types of drugs, its safe to assume all athletes are doing so, its a hypocrisy that baseball receives the lions share of criticism…..where was the giant banner ads when Shawn Merriman tested positive?
In any event, its gonna be a rough year for Arod with this, Madonna and the Joe Torre book
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
It is very difficult to test for HGH
since everyone’s natural HGH levels are different.
I heard on the Radio yesterday that the NFL tests for 30 designer steriods but it is believed that there are over 2,000 designer steriods out there.
"When two Whales Fight, many Shrimp Die" - Korean Proverb
by TheRiot Police on Feb 7, 2009 12:43 PM CST up reply actions
Exactly, I just had this discussion
theres no way people are naturally that big and that fast as some of these NFL players
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
Testing can never keep up with science...
because there’s always more money to be had in coming up with the latest undetectable drug than there is in coming up with the test to detect steroids.
The only thing that could possibly work would be keeping samples for later testing (when the detection science starts catching up). But that opens all sorts of other issues.
At this point, there is nobody’s name that would surprise me at this point. Even Maddux. Not that I think Maddux ever used (he seems like the least likely), but because of the seeming prevalence of the stuff I wouldn’t be shocked if I heard even his name come out.
meh...
this is like saying that Obama never had his hand in the pay to play cookie jar.
"Just win tonight" - derv
I dont know, I think its kind of surprising
He was never linked with any of the BALCO talk
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
excuse me?
Totally inappropriate, unsubstantiated and not at all within the bounds of what this site is all about.
Or... it's like saying
That an anti-gay Republican never went trolling for male tail in a bathroom.
I’m done with the political talk now. Just returning fire.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
If we're talking politics, let's point out the failure of George Mitchell.
The Mitchell Report was supposed to end this. The report “wasn’t about naming names,” but how many of us remember anything about it except the names it named – and this big gap – it didn’t name Alex Rodriguez, who is now facing this scandal.
People went away from that report saying, “Well X wasn’t named, so…” and people looked forward to A-Rod breaking the record because he wasn’t named.
Selig and Mitchell failed to put this story behind us. I’m sick of a new steroid report every spring. The sport needs to find a way to end this.
The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.
It can't
It’s the fans who care. Blame people like Bob Costas and George Will, who hold up the game of Ty Cobb and Pete Rose as sacred.
People have always cheated to get ahead. People have always stolen signs, taken drugs, sharpened their spikes, argued calls they knew were right and all the rest.
It all evens out in the end. Enjoy the game and don’t worry about the numbers.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
Well Rose was a gambler and Cobb a maniac
so not really performance enhancing activities, as bad as they might be
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
though...
I do love the stories about Ty Cobb running from 1st to 3rd when the umpires backs were turned to monitor the ball in the outfield. I don’t know if it’s true, but it makes for a great legend.
Man, Ty Cobb was awesome (for a jerk).
by CubsWin!Oregon on Feb 7, 2009 3:36 PM CST up reply actions
I actually witnessed
a double suicide-squeeze in a High School game. 2nd and 3rd with 1 out. Both runners took off, the batter dropped the bunt down easily scoring the runner on 3rd. The runner on 2nd cut across the grass about 15 feet short of 3B and scored without a play after the pitcher fielded the ball and threw to 1B to get the batter out. The umps were watching the throw to 1B and never even saw the runner on 2B. The fans and team went berserk, but the runs stood as the umps did not see what happened.
I think they are
This test is from 2003, and their new testing program is working fine, the trouble is going to be, like all sports, staying ahead of the street chemists
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
I don't think they are.
1. It’s the on-going distractions. Who will be outed next – not for a current test, but for old tests?
2. How do you know the current program is working fine?
The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.
How do you know its not?
this is from 2003, prior to the new testing program.
the tests they are using seem to be working as players have been continually caught since it was implemented.
If no test exists for a certain substance, why or how could MLB detect them, thats why its a continual cat and mouse game b/t testers and users
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
how do we know
if it is working or not, when each time we turn around, another scancal is brought to our attention?
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
Right, but this one was from 6 years ago
and just as much outrage should be focused on the fact that these tests were leaked and peoples right to privacy being flouted
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
Why are you blaming Mitchell?
He was preparing the report. It was on Selig and MLB to implement his recommendations and take other steps to fix the problem. Selig doesn’t want to fix it, he wants seats full and money in pockets.
Mitchell-Selig
It’s more a combo of Selig and Mitchell. If I’m reading the SI report right and understanding this right, Selig would have known that A-Rod tested positive. He would have known Mitchell didn’t include A-Rod’s name. He should have known where guys like Gammons would take the story.
I also didn’t like the way Mitchell packaged the report – naming some names and saying also, “We won’t be able to name all the names.” So, what is going to happen when Sosa – not named – comes up for a HoF ballot? Will the writers assume he’s innocent, or do they still think he’s guilty? On what grounds?
It’s just a mess.
The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.
There is no reason to protect Sosa
He just hasn’t been caught yet. Or he doesn’t matter enough anymore to worry about.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
I don't have any interest in protecting Sosa.
I’m just using him as an example of the messiness of naming a lot of names but not naming all names as one more name now leaks out.
The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.
I understand...
… but IMO the names in the report weren’t the important aspect. What was important was what MLB did going forward, which was pretty insignificant seeing as how they’re doing nothing to test for the PEDs that are being used.
I agree with what should have been important.
But what ended up being important? Part of that is on Selig and Fehr, but Mitchell’s presentation, to me, was part of the problem, too.
The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.
by DGU on Feb 7, 2009 11:46 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Here's what bothers me...
The agents who collected the material had a search warrant only for the results for the 10 BALCO-linked players. Attorneys from the union argue that the government is entitled only to the results for those players, not the entire list.
I don’t condone A-Rod’s alleged steroid use, but what happened to his right to privacy in this instance. Fedral investigators may have stepped outside their purview in this case, and then four sources leak this info to SI? This whole situation stinks.
"They say we live and learn. Often what we learn is what damn fools we have been." ~Thomas Sowell
by Goodie1969 on Feb 7, 2009 9:58 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
Its a witch hunt to a degree
People are trying to make names for themselves by taking down baseball players, especially during the congressional hearings, and youre right, its a bit worrisome that our laws our so blatantly flouted in this pursuit
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
You may have a point
but if he hadn’t done anything illegal he wouldn’t have a problem right now.
by LT on Feb 7, 2009 10:01 AM CST up reply actions
That much is true, but
this is sort of like the police getting a warrant to search your neighbor’s apartment, doing so, and then since they are in the building anyway, breaking down your door to have a look around as well.
"They say we live and learn. Often what we learn is what damn fools we have been." ~Thomas Sowell
I agree
Its strange how they seem to have over stepped their bounds in their pursuit of Arod and Bonds
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
they'll never be able to prosecute alex
Alex never took the stand and denied usage. The government can’t really do anything legally against him, but that doesn’t mean they can’t tarnish his name forever. The truth eventually comes out.
by aznsensation on Feb 7, 2009 10:19 AM CST up reply actions
Its not a govt issue really
Its b/c he’s been heralded as the clean one, baseballs shining example….i dont think he’s going to face any legal consequences, just a tremendous knock to his legacy
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
I heard
I have heard at least one of the people on the Bonds case has his eye on the governor’s chair in California. This may be a way to get his name out there.
Barbara V. October 14, 1941 - December 19, 2008. A great lady who was a friend to all and like a second mom to her children's friends (she was my best friend's mom)
by puckishcubsfan on Feb 7, 2009 2:58 PM CST up reply actions
Are they making another Terminator?
that seemed to work
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
due to the anti trust
the feds can step outside that line I do believe
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
So?
I’d take him on my team in a minute.
No Cubs fan who cheered for Sosa can say a word about roids
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
well
Sosa never tested positive for steroids, plus A-Rod was suppose to be the “clean good guy” who would triumph over Bond’s tainted record. This is a shock
Erm, well if we are going to call Milton Bradley nicknames, mine is Fischer Price: yes, you heard it here first..
Alex Rodriguez = Asterisk
The psychology of the American (and Western) consumer is going to have to change. The previous bubble economy we witnessed in the late 20th and early 21st century is unsustainable.
by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on Feb 7, 2009 1:17 PM CST up reply actions
Sosa
While I think Sosa was getting some help it should be noted that he has never been on any list.
Barbara V. October 14, 1941 - December 19, 2008. A great lady who was a friend to all and like a second mom to her children's friends (she was my best friend's mom)
by puckishcubsfan on Feb 7, 2009 2:50 PM CST up reply actions
Don't be surprised one day
if his name comes out. No one would surprise me. The changes in his body over a short period of time are huge.
by LT on Feb 7, 2009 4:22 PM CST up reply actions
sure, but why make accusations when he hasn't been tested positive and there are no credible sources stating that he has
Erm, well if we are going to call Milton Bradley nicknames, mine is Fischer Price: yes, you heard it here first..
Wow, wow, wow.
I have no respect for him now. This….is huge, very huge. The player that was allegedly clean that was set to break the home run record is nothing more than a fraud now. Meh, now I guess I’ll reluctantly root for Pujols to beat that record..
Erm, well if we are going to call Milton Bradley nicknames, mine is Fischer Price: yes, you heard it here first..
His name may come out for all we know
It hard to not believe that any superstar wasn’t on the juice at this point.
by LT on Feb 7, 2009 10:04 AM CST up reply actions
agreed, I'm rather skeptical, but to be honest
If Pujols were on any other team I would definitely root for him. He just happens to be on one of my most hated teams. And speaking of A-Rod, Red Sox fans are going to tear him to shreds when the Yanks come to Boston next season.
Erm, well if we are going to call Milton Bradley nicknames, mine is Fischer Price: yes, you heard it here first..
heh, well I'm not sure the Yanks would cut him
considering he is owed 100s of millions of dollars plus they kept Giambi and Sheffield when they were without a doubt roiders. Yankees have no ethics, they only care about winning
Erm, well if we are going to call Milton Bradley nicknames, mine is Fischer Price: yes, you heard it here first..
Oh please
It’s just as possible that Lee, Ramirez, Wood and all the other heroes we’ve cheered have used as well.
Ethics, smethics.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
True, but you are just speculating, this is facts
And you and I know very well that the Steinbrenners would do anything to win a World Series ring. That’s why they didn’t cut Giambi, thats why they got Sheffield, and I doubt they will do anything about A-Rod more than the league will give him
Erm, well if we are going to call Milton Bradley nicknames, mine is Fischer Price: yes, you heard it here first..
I would do anything to win a World Series ring too
I WANT a team that would do anything to win.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
Well that explains a lot
"There are no curses here...Games are won and lost on the baseball field" - Lou Piniella
Lost what?
The World Series and MVP checks cleared. The rings are in the safety deposit box. The record book is intact.
What exactly does a team like the 1989 Oakland A’s lose?
Nothing. Well, I guess they lose the respect of fans.
Again, nothing.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
Worf, I understand your argument.
Granted, the vast majority of us would rather have an individual (and team) do it the right way. However your point is taken – no one can deny them what they’ve won, regardless how they obtained it.
The psychology of the American (and Western) consumer is going to have to change. The previous bubble economy we witnessed in the late 20th and early 21st century is unsustainable.
by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on Feb 7, 2009 1:20 PM CST up reply actions
Tell that to Marion Jones' teammates
Who were forced to give back their medals. Cheating devalues even the innocent who happen to be
on the same team.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Feb 7, 2009 1:48 PM CST up reply actions
There are no innocents
Every single Oakland A knew, or suspected, what was happening, and they looked the other way because McGwire and Canseco helped them win.
And helped them get playoff shares.
Save the kumbaya stuff for camp.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
+1
The psychology of the American (and Western) consumer is going to have to change. The previous bubble economy we witnessed in the late 20th and early 21st century is unsustainable.
by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on Feb 8, 2009 3:20 PM CST up reply actions
Well Doggie Stalker, MLB isn't taking back anything from the A's.
This is America. Not the IOC.
The psychology of the American (and Western) consumer is going to have to change. The previous bubble economy we witnessed in the late 20th and early 21st century is unsustainable.
by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on Feb 8, 2009 3:21 PM CST up reply actions
what is the league going to do
this was a positive test from 03, and there were no rules in place to suspend or punish him. He’ll be tried in the court of public opinion aka the media, crucified for awhile, and then it’ll be forgotten.
there were rules
Steroids are a narcotic illegal by US law. The proper punishment should be that a failed drug test means handing you over to the authorities. You want to clean the game up, go extreme.
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
The problem with that is
the feds weren’t even entitled to this information. It’s a joke and there’s egg ALL OVER the MLBPA’s face right now. Fehr should be fired for this and if I were A-Rod I would sue for millions in defamation.
It was the MLBPA’s RESPONSIBILITY to destroy those files and that’s why they were encoded…for SI to get their paws on them is ridiculous on behalf of the MLBPA. A-Rod didn’t do the right thing but by no means should we have this story out today.
"Why do you always point to the sky when Zambrano starts?" My girlfriend.
"You just wouldn't get it...it's a Cubs thing..." Me.
by cubs2k8isnxtyear on Feb 7, 2009 7:39 PM CST up reply actions
they screwed up twice
not reporting it when it happened properly, and by not properly getting rid of all evidence. MLB and MLBPA both look like fools, but worse, we look even more foolish as we wait in line at the nexy game as if nothing happened.
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
A-Rod's legacy and whether or not he can
be considered “clean” is obviously the big story here.
The major follow-up to this is watching the players and their trust in the MLBPA. They are the sheep to Fehr and his organization as they have herded the players towards greed at alarming rates…always pushing money as the bottom line to everything the owners say. The huge follow-up to the MLBPA dropping the ball and potentially leaving the door wide open for A-Rod’s legacy to be tarnished could be a major fallout between the players and Fehr as well as the trust disappearing.
This could have a much longer lasting effect on baseball than just A-Rod’s legacy.
It’s really shocking and sad on many levels.
"Why do you always point to the sky when Zambrano starts?" My girlfriend.
"You just wouldn't get it...it's a Cubs thing..." Me.
by cubs2k8isnxtyear on Feb 7, 2009 7:45 PM CST up reply actions
These are called
“allegations” for a reason…they aren’t written in stone facts…before everyone condemns A-Rod wait for all the facts to come out. I guarantee there’s more to this story than meets the eye.
And the “league” wont give him anything…read the story. It was in 2003 when there were no penalties…this is honestly an outrage and Donald Fehr should be fired for this as MLBPA head…those results were supposed to be destroyed long before they were taken in 2004.
Such a joke on so many levels.
"Why do you always point to the sky when Zambrano starts?" My girlfriend.
"You just wouldn't get it...it's a Cubs thing..." Me.
by cubs2k8isnxtyear on Feb 7, 2009 7:36 PM CST up reply actions
yeah, I didn't think about the reprocutions the league couldn't give him because it was in 2003
Nevertheless even though he won’t be punished, that won’t matter. What’s 50 games mean for a man with a permanent tarnish to his legacy?
Erm, well if we are going to call Milton Bradley nicknames, mine is Fischer Price: yes, you heard it here first..
Amen...
A-Rod’s legacy is sadly gone…and “A-Fraud”…what an ironic nickname…think the Yankees knew something we didn’t?
Either way..the saddest part is that the MLBPA has screwed over its players once again…
"Why do you always point to the sky when Zambrano starts?" My girlfriend.
"You just wouldn't get it...it's a Cubs thing..." Me.
by cubs2k8isnxtyear on Feb 8, 2009 12:52 AM CST up reply actions
If the Yankees had known something...
… why would they have re-signed him when he opted out a year ago?
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
That's a good point...
and I was just thinking out loud without any evidence to back it up.
It’s just a sad situation for baseball…
"Why do you always point to the sky when Zambrano starts?" My girlfriend.
"You just wouldn't get it...it's a Cubs thing..." Me.
by cubs2k8isnxtyear on Feb 8, 2009 6:02 PM CST up reply actions
Too bad Ryan Howard got a late start
he couldve done something huge, Im sure he still will, but he wont get near 700 b/c he got a “late” start
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
yeah, he's got the tools but isn't he very close to 30?
Erm, well if we are going to call Milton Bradley nicknames, mine is Fischer Price: yes, you heard it here first..
He's 20, 30 in November
and has 177 career HRs, so yeah I guess not, but Im sure he’ll get around 500 depending on how long and where he plays
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
geez dude goes from 20 to 30 in a year??? that's aging there! hahaah
Erm, well if we are going to call Milton Bradley nicknames, mine is Fischer Price: yes, you heard it here first..
the curious case of Ryan Howard
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
Why?
Why isn’t he suspected of being on steroids? Suddenly arriving in the majors at age 27. Especially from one of those that love accusing Soto of being on them.
Barbara V. October 14, 1941 - December 19, 2008. A great lady who was a friend to all and like a second mom to her children's friends (she was my best friend's mom)
by puckishcubsfan on Feb 9, 2009 5:32 AM CST up reply actions
Pujols has 319 HRs through 8 years
Arod and 340 through his 1st 8 years, so Pujols could come close, health depending of course
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
geez, how great would it be to be able to pick him up when he hits the FA market
Erm, well if we are going to call Milton Bradley nicknames, mine is Fischer Price: yes, you heard it here first..
And block Hoffpauir?
The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.
by DGU on Feb 7, 2009 1:59 PM CST up reply actions
well Hoffpauir is left-handed...
…so I guess they could platoon.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Pujols
I hope his name is not the next one to pop up. Cardinal or not, he is amazing to watch play, and he is not a cocky, jackass, who talks a lot of junk.
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
I love all the charity work
Albert does…he’s a class person and while I along with you severely dislike the Cardinals, I respect Albert, Tony, and their whole team and fanbase.
"Why do you always point to the sky when Zambrano starts?" My girlfriend.
"You just wouldn't get it...it's a Cubs thing..." Me.
by cubs2k8isnxtyear on Feb 7, 2009 7:41 PM CST up reply actions
Pujols
Pujols is a class act. I was involved in an event he did and everyone I talked to said they have never dealt with anyone as nice and humble.
AS I said above I am a huge Frank Thomas fan despite his Soxdom and a huge Pujols fan despite his Cardinaldom.
Heck kill me fellow Bears fans I also am a fan of Brett Favre.
Barbara V. October 14, 1941 - December 19, 2008. A great lady who was a friend to all and like a second mom to her children's friends (she was my best friend's mom)
by puckishcubsfan on Feb 9, 2009 1:25 PM CST up reply actions
other than Frank Thomas and Greg Maddux, anyway...
Which makes them even more impressive.
by CubsWin!Oregon on Feb 7, 2009 3:39 PM CST up reply actions
well Jose Cansesco, although he is a complete rat,
Seems to be right. Didn’t he say that A-Rod was a roid user as a Ranger and was planning on writing a book about it? The dude has sources, but is a complete snake..
Erm, well if we are going to call Milton Bradley nicknames, mine is Fischer Price: yes, you heard it here first..
With all those roids in Texas, its a wonder they never one anything
canseco, Juan Gone, Pudge, Arod
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
agreed, and after hearing this information
It isn’t a complete shock given that he was a Ranger, which was a team that possessed rampant steroid users
Erm, well if we are going to call Milton Bradley nicknames, mine is Fischer Price: yes, you heard it here first..
Yeah Texas and Oakland were the Manhattan Project of this whole thing evidently
making Canseco the Einstein of steroids
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
GW Bush
was the owner, and traded Sosa as well, don’t forget that.
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
Still no link to Sosa...
…and I cant help but assume that Sammy Sosa would be a high profile target to leak info about IF he’d have come up dirty in any of these investigations… The only link to Sosa and Steroids (other than the speculation of every lounge chair expert in America) was SPECULATION from the Mitchell Report, when they got all of his medical records… but he was never named by that same report…
The 2007 Mitchell Report did not name Sosa in its list of players identified in the course of the investigation, although Sosa was mentioned in a related affidavit by Federal Agent Jeff Novitzky dealing with the use of amphetamines. – - Wikipedia
Once again Sosa’s nose stays clean…
One thing you learned as a Cubs fan: when you bought you ticket, you could bank on seeing the bottom of the ninth.
Joe Garagiola
by Ryan at Cubshub on Feb 7, 2009 10:29 AM CST reply actions
true and if reports come out saying he did take them I'd lose respect for him
Erm, well if we are going to call Milton Bradley nicknames, mine is Fischer Price: yes, you heard it here first..
Puh-leaze
That’s like saying you aren’t going to believe Santa doesn’t exist until you take a dogsled trip to the North Pole to confirm he doesn’t live there.
Sosa used. We cheered. End of story.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
If it weren't for the 04 season, your views on Sosa would be much different I think
Erm, well if we are going to call Milton Bradley nicknames, mine is Fischer Price: yes, you heard it here first..
The corked bat changed mine
along with the end of 04
by LT on Feb 7, 2009 4:25 PM CST up reply actions
Not me, corking makes the bat less powerful
b/c it makes it less rigid
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
correct
it makes for a larger sweet spot, but a softer bat.
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
Supposedly...
…Dont get me wrong, he was as ‘cartoonish’ as they get, but it wasnt the worst physical transition in the history of the game. Sosa got big, yes, but its possible he did it cleanly.
Your argument swings both ways, ya know? I could easily say that you, Al, any poster, any player, etc., did something illegal and in your argument that would mean that its true because I said it. Disagree? Well what if a dozen people said it? Would that make it true?
The obvious answer, of course, is no. Its all speculation and if you choose to convict him based on speculation thats your opinion. This would be the perfect time for MLB or anyone else to drop Sosa’s name as having used, but they havent… why? Maybe he didnt use.
One thing you learned as a Cubs fan: when you bought you ticket, you could bank on seeing the bottom of the ninth.
Joe Garagiola
by Ryan at Cubshub on Feb 7, 2009 10:48 AM CST up reply actions
Sosa's chief proponent...
…Dont get me wrong, he was as ‘cartoonish’ as they get, but it wasnt the worst physical transition in the history of the game. Sosa got big, yes, but its possible he did it cleanly.
…Larry Himes disagrees with you. Himes has said that he questioned Sammy’s off-season transformation when he put on 30+ pounds of muscle. “Questioned” is an understatement, Himes has pretty much said he believes Sosa was on ’roids.
One thing
One thing the media scum lost credibility during is they used pictures from 1992 and 1998 to show the transformation not 97 and 98, They knew very well the pictures were from 1992 but they made them out to look like it was 1 year. They showed front and back and in the back pictures there was no name and the names were added in 93.
Barbara V. October 14, 1941 - December 19, 2008. A great lady who was a friend to all and like a second mom to her children's friends (she was my best friend's mom)
by puckishcubsfan on Feb 9, 2009 5:33 AM CST up reply actions
That is weird
I mean, how much bigger a target would they need?
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
I may get hung
but innocent until proven guilty.
We can all believe he was on something, but it must become clear he was before we can brand him a full on cheat.
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
Agreed
I wasn’t Sosa’s biggest fan following the corked bat incident, but between 1996-2002, I cheered strongly for the guy, and he was one of my favorites. His name hasn’t showed up anywhere yet, so as of now, to me, he’s still clean.
I wouldn’t hold it past him if it comes out that he did, but at this point, we don’t really know…
Sosa
I’ll tell you what, I never thought of Sosa being the smartest cat in the land, but man, this guy ain’t getting caught!
Sammy “Slick Cat” Sosa
I’m sure he did cheat, but those who know are not coming forward. Yet…
well maybe he did test positive
And no one leaked it
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
I want to know how this information was leaked
Erm, well if we are going to call Milton Bradley nicknames, mine is Fischer Price: yes, you heard it here first..
Look no further than the feds
who raided for BALCO and took these names of the 104 in ’03 as well.
It’s a sad, sad story on so many levels.
"Why do you always point to the sky when Zambrano starts?" My girlfriend.
"You just wouldn't get it...it's a Cubs thing..." Me.
by cubs2k8isnxtyear on Feb 7, 2009 7:50 PM CST up reply actions
The one who leaked the names ethics should be called into question as well
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
covering up the truth?
Although I think it should be revealed, this guy did this just to gain attention most likely..
Erm, well if we are going to call Milton Bradley nicknames, mine is Fischer Price: yes, you heard it here first..
well if it was a federal agent or cop or lawyer etc, etc
then yes, that is highly unethical
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
but, I think you can agree with me
That you are very interested in the other 103 players that are on that list
Erm, well if we are going to call Milton Bradley nicknames, mine is Fischer Price: yes, you heard it here first..
It's only about the records
That’s what pisses me off about this whole thing. No one cares about the actual games.
In 2002, the Giants finished 3 games ahead of the Dodgers in the wild card and went on to win the NL. You don’t think Bonds had 3 games of steroid-aided help? No one cares about that, though. It’s just THE RECORDS!
The A’s went to three WS in the 80s and 90s. The Yankees and A-Rod have been to the playoffs several times. Sosa’s Cubs barely won the wild card in 1998, beating out the Giants.
No one gives a damn about the actual games, where one TEAM has an advantage. It’s all about who breaks a record
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
but you just said up top
“I would do anything to win a World Series ring too”
“I WANT a team that would do anything to win.”
Doesn’t this post COMPLETELY contradict that statement?
Erm, well if we are going to call Milton Bradley nicknames, mine is Fischer Price: yes, you heard it here first..
Not at all
I am cheerfully part of the same hypocrisy. Do what you have to do to win, but by God, don’t break a record unless you’re clean!
I just don’t care about records.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
Why is it....
…when the steroid conversation comes up, we see words like “pisses,” and “leaked” much more often than before?
So what have we learned?
Steroids get you $25 Million Dollar contracts.
Actually I’m sure we’ll hear more names in the next few months that will be just as surprising.
You buncha daisies
If the Cubs win the World Series next year and it comes out that Zambrano was using HGH, are you going to advocate giving the rings back?
Puh-leaze.
You know how you know if you played the game the “right way”?
Look up at the scoreboard. If your number is bigger than the other team’s, you played the game the right way.
Nothing else matters.
No one is clean. No one is pure. You don’t like it, go watch the Waltons.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
So a person cheats during school and ends up getting better grades than a person who is much more intellegent
And he ultimately gets into a better college and such, is that fair? Can you justify that? This is the same situation. A-Rod has a lot of talent but he wanted to go over the top and be the best in order to get the best contract out there. This PROVES that he would do anything to get what he wants ethically or not.
Erm, well if we are going to call Milton Bradley nicknames, mine is Fischer Price: yes, you heard it here first..
Those of you who wouldn't do anything to get what you want
Just don’t want it bad enough.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
So
A person can either save up for money to buy a nice SUV that would take him years to pay for but ultimately steals one so that he doesn’t have to pay for it and cheats his way to happiness. Can you justify this?
Erm, well if we are going to call Milton Bradley nicknames, mine is Fischer Price: yes, you heard it here first..
Sure...
We are all greedy scumbags. The only thing keeping the average person from stealing and cheating is the fear of going to jail.
There is no justification needed. It’s human nature.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
wrong! there are people in this world who do have morals and ethics
Who strive to live a virtuous lifestyle. It’s not human nature, that is an excuse..
Erm, well if we are going to call Milton Bradley nicknames, mine is Fischer Price: yes, you heard it here first..
Uh-huh
There are people in this world who have morals and ethics…
Too bad they are all fictional characters on the Waltons and Seventh Heaven.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
Just because your not one of them
doesn’t mean that people with moral and ethics don’t exist.
"There are no curses here...Games are won and lost on the baseball field" - Lou Piniella
I have morals
and ethics and I’m not a fictional character. It’s the way my parents raised me. I’m sure many in here were raised the same way.
by sue369 on Feb 7, 2009 12:42 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Exactly.
We know exactly how Worf feels, and it’s his right to have that opinion.
I don’t think it’s shared by too many here.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
+12310141141230415456015341401010153040131561456
cheating is not somethign EVERYONE does to get ahead.
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
So a runner on 2nd trying to steal signs is not o.k.?
I’m sure Piniella would condone it.
The psychology of the American (and Western) consumer is going to have to change. The previous bubble economy we witnessed in the late 20th and early 21st century is unsustainable.
by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on Feb 8, 2009 3:23 PM CST up reply actions
That's part of the game, trying to figure out what your opponent is doing.
I trust you can see the difference between that and PED’s.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
I see.
So now we’re comparing apples and oranges. Cheating is cheating no?
The psychology of the American (and Western) consumer is going to have to change. The previous bubble economy we witnessed in the late 20th and early 21st century is unsustainable.
by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on Feb 8, 2009 3:27 PM CST up reply actions
So under your scenario...
… no one should be able to guess what the pitcher is throwing, because that’d be cheating. Right?
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
C'mon Al! :-) Batters are always "guessing" at what's being thrown.
You’re smarter than this. Simple example: If a catcher gives an “index finger” signal and it means fastball and the runner on 2nd lets the batter / manager know (in whatever ingenious way they come up with) it’s cheating is it not? The information gets back to all of the players and the next time a runner (of the cheating team is on 2nd) and he sees “index finger”, he tips off the batter and WHAMO! Might as well have the catcher say to the pitcher: “Throw a fastball!” The signs are the reason for the batter not to know what’s coming right?
The psychology of the American (and Western) consumer is going to have to change. The previous bubble economy we witnessed in the late 20th and early 21st century is unsustainable.
by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on Feb 8, 2009 3:36 PM CST up reply actions
Right.
So that’s not cheating, is it?
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
Guessing isn't cheating but...
…Stealing the catcher’s signs is cheating.
If more than one person knows a secret, it ain't a secret.
by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on Feb 8, 2009 6:32 PM CST up reply actions
dont forget
to get rid of all the scouting reports, since that would be an unfair advantage to be used agaisnt a batter base runner, fielder, etc.
This seems to have gone way off topic, INO
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
not to mention spell check
The psychology of the American (and Western) consumer is going to have to change. The previous bubble economy we witnessed in the late 20th and early 21st century is unsustainable.
by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on Feb 8, 2009 3:38 PM CST up reply actions
taking this a bit further OT...
Runner on 2nd, trying to steal signs from catcher – that’s part of the game.
Coaches at the bases or on the bench (Nossek was one of the best) trying to steal signs – that’s part of the game.
Batter looks down and back at catcher to maybe guess pitch location – NOT part of the game and likely to earn you a high and inside on the next pitch.
Why the double standard? Never been able to figure that one out…
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Alright then.
Well, if that’s how baseball is played, then I guess cheating is allowed. But do you ever notice how the catcher waits until the batter is set and even then he’s still looking up at the batter after the batter is set. That’s to ensure that the batter is not looking at where the ball “may” be thrown. Apparently the catcher is doing this for a reason. To prevent the batter from cheating. I guarantee you that the catcher, if he catches the batter looking down is either going to raise holy hell to the batter, then the umpire. So, in my estimation this is cheating and cheating shouldn’t be allowed right?
If more than one person knows a secret, it ain't a secret.
by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on Feb 8, 2009 6:36 PM CST up reply actions
I'm not debating what is or isn't cheating
I’m just trying to understand how the folks that play the game think.
Again, when a runner on second looks in and tries to steal sign or coaches try to read lips – that’s acceptable. I don’t care what you or I think about whether that’s cheating or not, because to quote the Rock – “It doesn’t matter what you (or I) think”.
All I’m saying is it’s acceptable to the people who play the game. Nobody gets bent out of shape about it, pitcher and catcher just change signs/sequence or cover their mouths when they talk.
But for some reason, if a batter looks back trying to guess location, that violates an unwritten rule, big-time. Other team seems to really get bent out of shape about that and chances are, batter gets thrown at.
I’m just trying to understand why players think one is okay but the other isn’t.
Boy, I wish there was an all-conference second basemen here on BCB that could ’splain it to me… ;-)
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Received, howeva!
that violates an unwritten rule
Either write the rule or don’t write it! If it ain’t written down to be adhered to then it ain’t a rule. Plain english.
If more than one person knows a secret, it ain't a secret.
by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on Feb 9, 2009 9:40 AM CST up reply actions
I always thought Klingons were honorable
Obviously you just can’t trust them.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Feb 7, 2009 1:50 PM CST up reply actions
yep, clearly he's used some sort of replicator gizmo...
…to change his outward appearance to look like a Klingon, but more and more, he’s sounding like a Ferengi.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Me
I even felt guilty once because the Metra conductor didn’t take my ticket. I was busy talking to my friend and realized it was still in my hand when I got off the train.
When I was on unemployment I was working PT (you can work and earn a certain amount and still get at least some of your check) and I called when I made a 10 dollar mistake in my favor. The guy was shocked!
Barbara V. October 14, 1941 - December 19, 2008. A great lady who was a friend to all and like a second mom to her children's friends (she was my best friend's mom)
by puckishcubsfan on Feb 7, 2009 3:25 PM CST up reply actions
You're on the internet
that makes you a fictional character. We are all saints out here.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
I don't think you are a saint anywhere
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Feb 7, 2009 8:10 PM CST up reply actions
that, my friend,
destroys your argument
Erm, well if we are going to call Milton Bradley nicknames, mine is Fischer Price: yes, you heard it here first..
You don't want to know
How little I give a rat’s ass what you think
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
And you can knock off the personal attacks.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
Wrong!
Ethics is doing the right thing when no one is watching.
I could easily steal things from work and not go to jail, but I choose not to. In fact, I know 100% that my employer has a ‘no police’ policy for internal investigations… yet I dont go out and steal thousands of dollars from the registers, safe, or deposit.
If you have no ethics, thats your choice, but I personally find it funny that you assume that everyone is a walking felon waiting for an opportunity.
One thing you learned as a Cubs fan: when you bought you ticket, you could bank on seeing the bottom of the ninth.
Joe Garagiola
by Ryan at Cubshub on Feb 7, 2009 10:50 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Does anyone know the difference between ethics and morals?
Pick Flick.
The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.
yeah
in simplest terms, ethics are basically things that you can control, fix, or change. It kind of runs hand and hand with virtue. Morals are more external..
Erm, well if we are going to call Milton Bradley nicknames, mine is Fischer Price: yes, you heard it here first..
You would lose your job...
And your employer would put the stink on you anytime you applied for another one.
Fear is the only reason people don’t commit crimes.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
Initech is evil, Chachkis is evil
I admit that I don’t like Chachkis, but I ’m not about to go in there and steal money from the cash register.
Yeah, well, maybe you should.
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
well it wouldn't be stealing you see..
it would be just taking penny’s from the jar at a counter. They did it in Superman III
Erm, well if we are going to call Milton Bradley nicknames, mine is Fischer Price: yes, you heard it here first..
Your wrong on a lot of levels.
I know people who’ve gotten fired from well paying jobs for theft and got hired at the NEXT place they applied for that was of similar quality… It happens.
One thing you learned as a Cubs fan: when you bought you ticket, you could bank on seeing the bottom of the ninth.
Joe Garagiola
by Ryan at Cubshub on Feb 7, 2009 11:05 AM CST up reply actions
So true.
If only we all had the courage of a murderer, the valor of a thief, and the boldness of an arsonist, the world would be as it is supposed to be.
"They say we live and learn. Often what we learn is what damn fools we have been." ~Thomas Sowell
Goodness Worf
" fear is the only reason people don’t commit crimes". No it is what I was taught by my father and mother. If that sounds to much like the Waltons and Little House on the Parrie so be it. Some people in this world don’t steal or cheat because it is the wrong thing to do.
"Have You heard of the Boom on Mizar 5?"
So that was you on the rooftop with the sniper's rifle last year during the playoffs?
Just didn’t have the guts to pull the trigger, eh? Guess you didn’t want it bad enough either…
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
disagree
that is not 100% true, many still have ethics and morals. some may, but others will not.
Sandberg / Dawson for great examples. Can you tell me they did not want to win just because they were not juiced?
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
Wow.
Your philosophy makes for a pretty pathetic existence and a sad metric for “success.”
by CubsWin!Oregon on Feb 7, 2009 3:43 PM CST up reply actions
I detect a moral compass that faces south.
… are you serious?
"If it's obvious, it's obviously wrong." - a well known stock market guru
To say no one is clean
is quite the stretch. I read in this news report that 104 tested positive, that is not everyone. Over 600 MLB players.
"Have You heard of the Boom on Mizar 5?"
The thing that is interesting
This was supposed to be a sealed report. Why didn’t MLB want to release this to the general public? So that their “clean” hitter would still be viewed as a clean player that would break the records and nobody would ever know he cheated? What else is MLB hiding from the fans??
Erm, well if we are going to call Milton Bradley nicknames, mine is Fischer Price: yes, you heard it here first..
All kinds of stuff
1) Santa isn’t real
2) Your dog didn’t go to a farm to live with other doggies
3) Your teenage daughter is having sex
4) Hot dogs really aren’t made from rats
It’s easy to hide stuff when people want to be misled.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
If my teenage daughter is having sex
that’s a good trick because I don’t have one. Anything else you’d like to tell me? :)
yeah I'm 17
so I have no teenage daughters that I can think of..
might have a teenage boy though..
Erm, well if we are going to call Milton Bradley nicknames, mine is Fischer Price: yes, you heard it here first..
What else is MLB hiding from the fans?
The same thing The Federal Reserve is hiding from John and Jane Q. Citizen – Worthwhile information.
The psychology of the American (and Western) consumer is going to have to change. The previous bubble economy we witnessed in the late 20th and early 21st century is unsustainable.
by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on Feb 8, 2009 3:27 PM CST up reply actions
Just so we're clear
The only person we can trust is Canseco.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Feb 7, 2009 10:56 AM CST reply actions 2 recs
He's the Ida Tarbell of steroids
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
ESPN was just saying
that these tests in 2003 were used to determine if random, mandatory drug testing was necessary, so 104 results was enough to persuade them to do so I guess.
That seems a bit suspect
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
Does this surprise anyone?
The 70 or so names in the Mitchell report only scratched the surface. I’m betting you see a lot more information trickle out about other guys in the coming years. All it will take is for a few key suppliers to get nabbed and they start singing.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
Agreed.
A few things, since I’ve been away from the computer for a while.
1. The political discussion above is inappropriate. Thanks for stopping it before it got out of control.
2. It’s possible that Sammy Sosa was involved in this. We simply do not know, and whether his name will eventually come out in connection with this or not is, at this time, pure speculation.
3. The numbers are what they are. Records were broken. It may take many years, presumably getting the sport cleaned up, before we have a real handle on what the era from around 1998-2004 means in baseball history.
4. It’s really too bad that A-Rod is involved in this. I thought he was one of the clean ones. Guess not.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
The era means
A bunch of guys used a supplement to enhance their talent and broke records.
Really, did steroids have any more impact on records than switching to a lively ball? Adding 8 games? Lowering the mound? Adding more teams? Building smaller parks? Adding a DH? Videotape allowing you to see every at-bat? Medical advances?
Aaron hit about a third of his 755 homers after 1968, when the mound was lowered. Ruth never had that advantage. Aaron hit 22 homers as a DH. He hit homers after the mass expansions of 1961 and 1968.
Maris hit 61 in a 162 game season in an expansion year.
Records really don’t mean what baseball people want you to think they mean. The game has changed too much over the years for records to really matter.
And since no one cares about the REAL impact of steroids — in the won-loss column — then this is much ado about nothing
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
I hear what you're saying
but the difference between the two is that when the mound was lowered or teams were added, everyone seemingly had the same advantages/disadvantages. Steriods on the other hand isn’t mutually inclusive.
There is NO ONE safe of the steriod cloud anymore in my opinion. It no longer would surprise me to find out that even guys like Ripken or Griffey experimented.
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
It would surprise me.
Those two seem honorable. So does Tony Gwynn, another great hitter of that era.
And one more you might mention… guy named Sandberg.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
I am running out
of cover ups to forgive and continue the same love for baseball
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
I still love baseball
but as far as the stats go, I’m done. They mean nothing to me. Selig needs to say this is the steriod era, all stats are for your own interpretation.
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
Stats always mattered too damn much anyway
As I said before, you CAN’T compare stats from different eras. The game has changed too much. All this romantic bullshit conjured up by Will and Costas and Ken Burns is just that, bullshit.
Ted Williams wouldn’t hit .250 against today’s pitchers. Randy Johnson would strike out any three of the 1927 Yankees on nine pitches.
Today’s athlete is better trained, has access to better technology and better nutrition.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
I think for the most part you are an idiot
But I couldn’t agree more on this point
For your information, the Supreme Court has roundly rejected prior restraint.
by Less is Walrond on Feb 8, 2009 8:25 PM CST up reply actions
Wow fella!
Worf actually stated some a very respectable opinion. I don’t think it’s necessary to start calling people names.
If more than one person knows a secret, it ain't a secret.
by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on Feb 9, 2009 9:42 AM CST up reply actions
Don't you know?
I’m the only one that gets called out for name-calling.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
Well. That will be my last time.
I think you provide some lucid and well thought out posts.
If more than one person knows a secret, it ain't a secret.
by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on Feb 10, 2009 5:52 PM CST up reply actions
Selig will admit that when he's willing to give up that $18 million dollar a year salary.
The psychology of the American (and Western) consumer is going to have to change. The previous bubble economy we witnessed in the late 20th and early 21st century is unsustainable.
by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on Feb 8, 2009 3:29 PM CST up reply actions
We're never going to be able to tell
who had the advantage and who didn’t. Power hitters weren’t the only ones juicing, pitchers as well. So what if A-Rod was hitting homers juiced up against pitchers that were just as juiced? Where was the advantage?
Best we can do is to put this in the past, never forget, but move on. Until Sosa is indicted or tests positive he’s innocent. In my book anyway. YOur going to accuse a man, have proof, or don’t say anything at all
What makes you think that the steroid era stopped in 2004?
Sure, taking steroids is not as easy as before, but the fact is that the people in charge really do not care to try and do anything possible to clean the sport. As long as major league has any say in the testing program then the steroid era is to me still in full swing. Testing should be done completely independently, and there should be not buts about blood testing. Selig-Fehr are not at all interested in any of that. Only thing they do is everytime the heat is turned on they “better” the testing program to save face. They really do not care, for obvious reasons, since more steroids means more money to everyone involved. That’s the reality of it.
Must be a good day to be a Red Sox fan
They’ll have their fun with this in New England.
But it is a sad day for baseball fans, as one of the “good guys” has been tainted—at least by hearsay and speculation.
One day I hope to come up with something worthy of this space.
I dont know how "good" he was
He always had the air of being a jerk, hes not Chipper Jones/Griffey/Ripken etc, but I’ll agree he was the gold standard for clean guys
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
The same Chipper Jones..
that, while married, had an 18 month affair with a Hooters waitress that resulted in a child?
Yes, that same one
he hasnt disparaged the game- i could care less what he does in the confines of his private life
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
Well...the only players that would truly shock me if they were roid users are the following
Ken Griffey Jr. and Greg Maddux
If either of those two were found to have taken substances, I’d give up hope for baseball. They are the two names that I really think people can say were “clean” during the 90s
Erm, well if we are going to call Milton Bradley nicknames, mine is Fischer Price: yes, you heard it here first..
As Maddux once said
" If i did take them I should get a refund"
I think Smoltz or Glavine would surprise me too.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Feb 7, 2009 1:54 PM CST up reply actions
gotta love Maddux and his witty quotes
Erm, well if we are going to call Milton Bradley nicknames, mine is Fischer Price: yes, you heard it here first..
Well if you like Maddux quotes on steroids
Here he is on the advantages of taking them.
“Maybe I should get on the stuff, so I’d hold up better. Get a bigger neck, get some zits on my back.”
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Feb 7, 2009 8:22 PM CST up reply actions
haha, God I am going to miss having him in the Bigs..
Erm, well if we are going to call Milton Bradley nicknames, mine is Fischer Price: yes, you heard it here first..
No one in baseball is above the fray it seems
Now, I’ve never cared for Alex Rodriguez – he just came across as phony to me.
But, if the reports are true, it would indicate that some of the insecurities he seems to have (the “single white female” complex desrcibed in Joe Torre’s book, for one), may have caused him to seek a competitive advantage, and it’s a shame.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
Don't agree
It wasn’t insecurities that caused him to use.
It was greed. It was “I’m good, let’s see how much better I get and how much more I get paid.”
Competitors seek competitive advantages.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
I think the insecurities feed the greed
“I’m not good enough to hit 450-foot homeruns. I need to do that, then I’ll be beloved.” That’s what I think entered into the thinking.
He’d already gotten his $ 200 million contract by 2003.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
I dont know about that
He was already an All-Star and a top 5 player before 03, but he had already signed that massive deal with Texas, so I think Worfs argument falls a bit flat-he would have no one of knowig he’d be traded the Yankees and command another 200+M
So who’s to say, maybe he’s just an ego maniac and thought he was above reproach and would never be caught, thus going down as the best ever in our nations oldest sport
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
The MLB Network has won me over
There coverage of this has been much better than most Baseball Tonight episodes I’ve seen. I like Verducci, especially.
Erm, well if we are going to call Milton Bradley nicknames, mine is Fischer Price: yes, you heard it here first..
And to futher add to it,
It is very interesting to hear the player’s intake on the steroid era on the MLB Channel.
Erm, well if we are going to call Milton Bradley nicknames, mine is Fischer Price: yes, you heard it here first..
Yep, they're putting out a fine product.
The hiring of Bob Costas is a “+” for them as well. Regardless of how people may feel/think about Costas personally, he can call a hell of a game and it will be fun to watch/listen to him call the Saturday night games on MLBn.
The psychology of the American (and Western) consumer is going to have to change. The previous bubble economy we witnessed in the late 20th and early 21st century is unsustainable.
by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on Feb 7, 2009 1:22 PM CST up reply actions
Also Selena Roberts
Explaining how she tried to get A-Rod and Orza to respond. Also interesting to hear the discussion of what Boras might have known.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Feb 7, 2009 1:55 PM CST up reply actions
yeah theyre gonna destroy baseball tonight
both are good shows, but the first 6 weeks of this network have been fantastic
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
Arods rep is gone
First cheating on his wife, playing the game cheap, the latest Torre allegations, and now steriods. What else does the guy have? Oh yeah, hundreds of millions of dollars.
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
A-Rod = Asterisk
The psychology of the American (and Western) consumer is going to have to change. The previous bubble economy we witnessed in the late 20th and early 21st century is unsustainable.
by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on Feb 7, 2009 1:23 PM CST up reply actions
Random fact you might find interesting
Here is a list of people that graduated my alma mater, Cedar Rapids Regis High School.
Zach Johnson – 2007 Masters Champ
Kurt Warner – NFL MVP
Joslyn Morse – Stray-Rod’s mistress
Haha one of these people does not seem to belong. Who?
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
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Is that Burnett?
haha, thats great….hes gonna have a rough year off the field
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
Lest we forget
Rodriguez was hitting all those homeruns off of pitchers who were not using PEDs. Right?
Look, it sucks that he used PEDs, but you are an idiot if you don’t think that players are going to use everything they possibly can to get ahead in the game, or that the Mitchell Report and the changes in the testing reigmen are going to eliminate PEDs. From the game. Check out this article by Will Carroll - PEDs wll be with us for a long time to come. We can try our best to limit them, but let’s not be naive here. Harsher penalties (permanent suspensions?) could certainly limit this, but the chemists will always be one step ahead.
Some people have 3 layers, like pie. Blog Blog Blog
but thats not fair to single out Arod or Selig or even Baseball
b/c as you, and others have said, its systemic through all sports b/c its seen as an easy way to get big bucks
the thing that makes the most upset is how other sports are skating on this….remember a few years ago when the Broncos Punter got busted for roids? Come on, its everywhere, share the blame media.
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
That is true
I’m sure steroids are rampant in every sport, but as far as the NFL (people already assume that everyone is on roids), NBA and NHL, people don’t really care. Perhaps is because baseball has a much more important tradition than any of those sports.
Dumbest thing
Dumbest thing about all this is all these big name players were very good to great players before they started shooting themselves up the butt.
And again while I think he was on something another report and Sammy’s name is not on it.
If Sammy is innocent I feel bad for him because he has no way to prove he never used them although someone once told me when he dies they can do further testing they can’t do on a living person.
Barbara V. October 14, 1941 - December 19, 2008. A great lady who was a friend to all and like a second mom to her children's friends (she was my best friend's mom)
Saddest Part
no one seemed to care when the fans were saying “come on he is juiced, no doubt” about players, until Bonds closed in on adn broke Aaron’s record. Seems to me that the record was more important to MLB than the integrity of the game.
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
One question I asked before (not here)
If a player lives in another country during the off-season, where HGH or Steroids ARE NOT illegal, can he be found guilty of using them from Nov – Jan while not on US soil? Not saying it makes it right, but its just a question I have had abuot all this.
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
A-Rod has become the biggest douche in professional sports
Is there EVER a positive story about this guy? For the enormity of his greatness the fact is he has been as useless in the playoffs as Alfonso Soriano.
The highly publicized flings with bimbos across North America, the Madonna thing, the nasty divorce, Joe Torre ragging on him, the jealously over Derek Jeter, etc.
Barry Bonds has passed the torch of biggest douche in sports to Alex Rodriquez. I think it is officially official.
This makes me sick
By 2003 the steroid scandal was so advanced that anyone using them knew damned well that they were illegal and banned. The continued blatant use of them by once future HOF players like Nimrod, Clemens, Bonds, Sosa, and Palmiero (I would never, ever, ever use ‘dem) makes me want to vomit. These guys should be banned from the game for life, have their MLB pensions revoked, and be criminally prosecuted. They are a disgrace to our country’s national pastime.
It is AMAZING how somebody hasn't already nailed Sammy Steroid
Sam-ME Corky Steroid was not well liked by many of his teammates. Kerry Wood and Mark Grace are shining examples. Therefore it surprises the daylights out of me that one of his former teammates hasn’t come out to blast him for steroid use. Especially with all these guys going down and Sammy sitting in the corner with the lying smile of the Cheshire cat.
Maybe
Teammates may not point the finger at Sammy because they may have been users too. I think people need to realize that it’s more likely players of this era did use rather than not. Players aren’t going to throw stones when they live in glass houses. It’s also widely known that a lot of Grace’s teammates didn’t care for him much and referred to him as the “moth” because of his love for the lights of the camera. Say what you will about Sosa but did it occur to anyone that he may have used steroids because he wanted to help his team win? Personally, I wish Grace would have quit smoking and worked out as hard as Sosa did. It’s hard for me to believe Grace wanted to be the best he could when he would brag about the fact that he didn’t workout or watch his diet. Funny how fans want to glorify a player that didn’t want to work hard off the field.
by Acapulco Taco Pie on Feb 7, 2009 6:41 PM CST up reply actions
Nice point ATP ...
… I think if Sam was on the juice, he must have been smart enough to do it in private. Also, during his congressional testimony he said something to the effect that he broke no laws. Steroids were (and maybe still are ) legal in the DR. So possibly Sam juiced up in the offseason, away from prying eyes, and perfectly legally. Truth is, we’ll never know. But why can’t someone come out and tell us who smashed is boombox? My money is on Woody.
"We gotta circle the bandwagons." - Devin Hester
by Jose's Eyelid on Feb 8, 2009 11:07 AM CST up reply actions
Smoking
not working out, and being caught trying to bring an underaged girl into the Cubbie Bear
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
Remember the first congress hearing?
There were players brought to that hearing that were suspected of steroids and there were players that were suspected of being clean. The most telling thing was that out of all players the one that made the best impression on me was Canseco. I think that pretty much says it all. Canseco, a guy you know is only out to make money and cares for himself, came out the best, by far. What does that tell you? To me it says that all the players are at fault, and specially the “clean” ones, whoever they are. They have never really pushed for a clean sport. Some random suggestions here and there, but as a union they will fight to the end for any improvement in the testing. Bottom line, they, as a whole, want to have that option available to them in case they need it at some point. Fans are no less guilty, because all fans want is to feel like a winner when their team wins. In the end, and this is really the only thing that matters, steroids mean more money for the teams, more money for the players, and more people watching the games and paying. Having these great conflict of interests, how can this issue ever be tackled with as it should? That is basically what Canseco said at the first hearing, and that is the reality of it all.
I suspect a lot of players are using steroids today, and the number will probably start to increase again if it hasn’t already.
And even though I will be nailed for this
I won’t be surprised one bit if/when Soto tests positive. I am 99% sure he is on roids.
yeah that would be awful
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
And
And I can say it’s highly probable you abuse kids. No proof or any basis.
Barbara V. October 14, 1941 - December 19, 2008. A great lady who was a friend to all and like a second mom to her children's friends (she was my best friend's mom)
by puckishcubsfan on Feb 7, 2009 5:22 PM CST up reply actions
So you don't believe
That suspicious stats can raise alarms?
In 1987 Maddux was REALLY bad
His ERA was 5.61 and 6-14 He was sent to the minors mid season where he was lights up but when he came back to the majors same problems. In 1988 after spending the winter in Venezuela with Dick Pole and his brother Mike he went 18-8 with an ERA of 3.18. That is one hell of change in a season. He said letter that he basically took too much advice from well meaning guys but had to learn to trust his own stuff. No doubt if this were the start of the 1989 season you would see those stats and assume Maddux was on steroids ?
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Feb 7, 2009 5:53 PM CST up reply actions
That's not a good comparison
Greg Maddux excelled in the minor leagues, to the tune of a 2.86 ERA.
On the other hand, Soto was a career minor leaguer, someone who hit basically the same for about 5 seasons (.700 OPS). Then, all of the sudden, as he is about to become a minor league free agent the guy turns into one of the best hitting catchers in the history of the game.
We are supposed to believe this all came from him losing something weight and perhaps doing some special workouts. I don’t buy it for a second.
And btw
Maddux not only excelled in the minors, he did while being extremely young (at age 20 he was already in AAA, where he went 10-1 with a 3.02 ERA. He is nowhere near a comparable to Soto.
Steroids don't turn an average player into a great one
It is not even clear how effective they are but if they mattered that much everyone would have hit 60 homers.
Bonds , A-Rod and Clemens were all great players before they did roids.
Um I love Geo but he is hardly one of the best hitting catchers in the history of the game. Maddux did excel in the minors but baseball is filled with guys who excelled in the minors and never made in the majors. He did manage to figure it out in the off season and if the Cubs had not been that bad in 87 it it doubtful he would have staid on the roster. The point is you can’t just say because a player who may have struggled turns it around does make him a roid user.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Feb 7, 2009 8:16 PM CST up reply actions
And
And there is no evidence or basis for this just some internet jerk who I have as much evidence beats up kids.
Barbara V. October 14, 1941 - December 19, 2008. A great lady who was a friend to all and like a second mom to her children's friends (she was my best friend's mom)
by puckishcubsfan on Feb 7, 2009 5:21 PM CST up reply actions
A positive test should be handled as follows
First time 50 game suspensions, second time out for life. After one fail, weekly testing for 18 months, both during the season and during the off season. Must turn over the supplier to the feds. You wonder what happens if the player got it from another player, well he turns that player in, and the domino affect might have five or ten players suspended and the end result is a dealer as well. Both times the courts should be involved since it is a federal crime, and a narcotic that has a higher class (Class III) ranking than cocaine. If the court sees fit to fine the player, send him to jail, etc then MLB and MLBPA must cooperate 100% or the player is out for life no reinstatement, no appeal, and those not willing to cooperate from MLBPA or MLB eligible for obstruction of justice by the feds.
Brief law and penalties for Steroids and its class ranking at the below link http://www.criminalattorney.com/pages/crimes/anabolic_steroid.htm
the team that the player is on CANNOT replace him on the roster during the suspension, and if it is the second failure, the team cannot replace him on the roster until the following season or 50 games of being short handed, whichever is longer. If you fail a test, you are not eligible to play in a post season game in the same calendar year (i.e. fail in April, serve 50 game suspension, cannot be on the post season roster).
If the player is a Free Agent and fails a test, he is not eligible to play for 1 year, cannot play in another league or he forfeits any chance to return tho MLB. part of all physicals for free agent signings included drug testing.
Force the players, and owners to police themselves. Having to play shorthanded for 50 games or an entire season might make an impact, and force those who are clean to start making noise at those who want to cheat the system.
Sure I may seem a little hard on the felon who is using the steroid (he is no longer a player, he is a felon at that point, no different than a cocaine user), but so be it. Time for them to become accountable for their actions. All this could be imposed by Congress and MLBPA would be unable to contest due to anit-trust.
Now do I think any of this will happen, of course not, but this is just my thoughts on how to start there purification of the league. Jack Daniels, and cigars didn’t help Babe Ruth
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
You are missing the point
If they are not doing the best testing possible then it won’t matter much. it baffles the mind that they are not even doing blood tests. That says everything anybody needs to know.
anti-trust
would over rule the union, I do believe.
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
FYI Worf
Union contract is between MLB and MLBPA not Congress who is top dog with the Anti Trust that MLB has. Therefore the MLBPA and MLB CANNOT deny the anit-trust regulations set to obide by.
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
Any member of Congress
who even suggests they get involved now should be thrown out.
More important things than whether a bunch of millionaires are going to break a few silly records.
This has nothing to do with the integrity of the game. No one cares that Roger Clemens played on World Series winning teams. They care that he won Cy Youngs.
I used to care about this. But then I wondered why no one seemed to care that Bonds led the Giants to the World Series. It was all about a three-digit number that someone made sacred.
When people start caring about won-loss records, wake me up. I really have no interest in whether a steroid user beats an amphetamine user’s record. Or whether that amphetamine user beat a record set by a guy who never had to face a black or Latino pitcher.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
your thought
would negate having an anti-trust, so MLB should relinquish it then, right?
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
I am not missing the point
I was talking more solution than what they have not been doing. I should have added that all tests must be done by a third party agency appointed not their choice.
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
this was meatn to be a reply to Luis, oops
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
I just wanted to comment on the fact
that if they are not doing the best testing, the suspentions are almost meaningless because they will not detect pretty much anybody. That’s the strategy MLB uses, to say that “only x % of players tested positive, so the game is clean”. With crappy testing, the focus on the suspentions only deflects the real issues.
Agreed
and I understand the point, I am just trying to think of ways to clean the game, not just look at how it has failed. The past cannot be cleaned, its the future that can make or break the game. I see many arguing about it needing to be cleaned, but few give ideas of how to clean.
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
I'm pessimistic because
of the great conflict of interests. I don’t see baseball overcoming this.
No
No you just love throwing out baseless hate filled accusations about players with no basis in reality like Soto.
Barbara V. October 14, 1941 - December 19, 2008. A great lady who was a friend to all and like a second mom to her children's friends (she was my best friend's mom)
by puckishcubsfan on Feb 7, 2009 5:23 PM CST up reply actions
well Sotos pre and post 07 minor league numbers are glaring
he came out of nowhere to win that PCL MVP didnt he?
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
instead
of saying that my ideas are worthless, adn being crabby pants McGhee…..how about you come up with an idea of how they can clean the game as I did. That would probably be a better post, more worthy of a read instead of just being a negative Nancy.
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
which would result in the positive or negative testing
that could have been added to what i was suggesting insteadof just saying it is worthless to try
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
Hey
My point is that baseball uses the games suspended as a gimmick to apease the media and obscure the important issue (no blood testing). The more games suspended are discussed the more they are getting people to do exactly as they want.
then do
hair folicle tests, they are more accurate than blood
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
then
why dont you talk about how to fix like you just did now instead of just bash what we cannot change (the past)
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
somewhere out there
Jose Canseco is getting the last laugh..
Erm, well if we are going to call Milton Bradley nicknames, mine is Fischer Price: yes, you heard it here first..
and Big Macs Brother
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
I certainly hope this wasnt really that surprising to anyone....
…This might a little damper on opening day at the new Yankee Stadium!
If he felt pressure playing in NY before, its gonna get a lot hotter now. They will be merciless.
New sig currently under construction
Initially,
yes it was a surprise. But when you really think about it, this wasn’t completely out of the blue..
Erm, well if we are going to call Milton Bradley nicknames, mine is Fischer Price: yes, you heard it here first..
Why the fans share the blame:
First I want to say that I’m not surprised by this, as I know many of you are not. However, I refuse to blame A-Rod, Barry, Sammy, and Roger as much as most people for the simple fact this is what a lot of us, and most importantly baseball has asked for. We all know that fans and the suits of MLB put the blinders on and refused to ask how the surge in power numbers came to be. Fans can say that they like a 1-0 game over a slugfest until they’re blue in the face. Unfortunately, those of us who do, are a large minority. It was the homerun chase of ’98 that saved baseball for the time being, not 1-0 games. Its the power and the HR highlights that the media outlets love to show. The most sacred record in all of sports belongs to this game. Ironically, its the HR record itself.
To me, this is just a sign of the time, and where we are as a country of sports fans. America loves big things. America loves the sexy thing. Most of American baseball fans want to see the long ball instead of a nicely turned 6-4-3 DP with a nice pick by the first basemen. We as a sports fans are greedy. Win at all cost.
I think its time that baseball and its fans, no matter how hard it is to do, start to accept the fact this is the era of baseball we live in. Hitters are hitting HRs off pitchers who are throwing harder than ever juiced up on roids. It pains me to have to look at it this way, but its the facts. As one of our beloved Cubs said in the summer of 2005: “Respect for the game of baseball. When we all played it, it was mandatory. Its something I hope we will one day see again.”
Its funny, you spend most of your life gripping a baseball. And in the end, its almost always the other way around.
+1
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
Ha!
I don’t remember the fans holding a gun to the head of these juiced s.o.b.’s and saying: “Please! Take steroids because we want to see the record(s) broken!”
The psychology of the American (and Western) consumer is going to have to change. The previous bubble economy we witnessed in the late 20th and early 21st century is unsustainable.
by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on Feb 8, 2009 3:42 PM CST up reply actions
Why would you hold a gun to someones head
and then beg THEM for something?
For your information, the Supreme Court has roundly rejected prior restraint.
by Less is Walrond on Feb 8, 2009 8:31 PM CST up reply actions
Heh?
If you were to compare the numbers of those who wanted to see the record broken by Bonds against those who didn’t (because of his suspected juicing) I guarantee you the numbers would have been much huger for the latter. How many people complain today and say that Bonds record needs to have an asterisk by it? Those people who were watching and cheering in San Francisco were just caught up in the euphoria because they wanted to be part of a moment. I’m quite sure that in the back of their mind that they had some doubts.
As far as the McGuire and Sosa race, the vast majority who were cheering that madness weren’t under the assumption that the guys were cheating. It all seemed on the up and up back then.
If more than one person knows a secret, it ain't a secret.
by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on Feb 9, 2009 10:01 AM CST up reply actions
Thats the point!!!
I’m not talking Bonds. I’m talking 1998. That was the start. Everyone cheered it. We all loved it. Thats the problem. No one cared to think that it was impossible to hit 70+ HRs in a season. It seemed “on the up and up” because the fans and baseball didn’t ask how it was possible, they asked how much money they could make. Again, think about what you’re reading. You’re taking one thing and making it another.
Its funny, you spend most of your life gripping a baseball. And in the end, its almost always the other way around.
i am sure
it predates 1998…….but you are right, that is when it really took off
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
Easy Sugar Britches
How I understand your comment (post) is how “I” understand it. How “I” interpret it. So if I understand you correctly (in your latest post) you believe that after MLB did find out (or become suspicious) of what was going on, they truly didn’t go after the PED abuse because of making money? Hell, that sounds just about right for a business mentality. But when we’re trying to teach ethics/morals to the younger generation, it makes it that much tougher.
If more than one person knows a secret, it ain't a secret.
by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on Feb 10, 2009 5:56 PM CST up reply actions
That reply
is absurd. You don’t get the point. WE pay the high ticket prices, WE like the big thing, WE love the long ball. Period. Its impossible to deny. Studies show it, ratings show it. And yes, we wanted to see the records broken and were completely unwilling to look at how it was possible. Pay attention, take a look around. Its the world we live in.
Its funny, you spend most of your life gripping a baseball. And in the end, its almost always the other way around.
honestly
I always have liked a pitcher duel 1-0 type of game better than the long ball, but yes as a colletive group the fans came in flocks to see it
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
Case in point
The NFL is hugely popular and they get guys busted every year for roids. No one cares.
We’ve seen the future of athletes who use roids. It’s called the fate of 1980s pro wrestlers. Last I checked, wrestling was just as popular as before.
By and large, no one cares. We are the spectators screaming “kill” at the gladiators.
Oh, a few people will wring their hands about records and some such, but those folks are — don’t tell them because they’d be devastated — in the minority.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
The reason no one cares
in football is because its the gladiator sport. The fans want them as big and as strong as possible. Its the fact that numbers are the holy grail of baseball. No other sport wraps its head around numbers like baseball.
Its funny, you spend most of your life gripping a baseball. And in the end, its almost always the other way around.
I honestly think the latest transgression is going to cause a paradigm shift in the love or relevance of numbers for the fans.
I believe for the rest of baseball’s future, the records reached in the past two generations will always be discussed with suspicion and doubt and that the new fans growing up won’t know what to think or believe. I for one am done with numbers. I’m a fan for the team. The hell w/the individuals accomplishments.
If more than one person knows a secret, it ain't a secret.
by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on Feb 10, 2009 5:59 PM CST up reply actions
you also
are not breaking records for a 120 TD pass, the dimensions stay the same, so the records are not the same to compare to
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
TCobb
Speak for yourself. “I” don’t think like that. Sure, I love the “Long Ball” but I don’t want to see it being faked. Your mentality is what’s wrong w/this damned country. If it’s enjoyable it’s worth it. If you’re not cheating you’re not trying. Horse pucky! Hard work doesn’t count for crap. Only hard work along with popping a pill, taking an injection, smothering cream on oneself, snorting or any other method of ingestion seems to be respected…According to the likes of you and the “we” you speak for.
If more than one person knows a secret, it ain't a secret.
by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on Feb 9, 2009 9:51 AM CST up reply actions
Let me turn that around
and tell you to speak for YOURSELF. Can you comprehend things that you read? Look at the quote “It pains me to have to look at it this way.” I don’t enjoy the game being played this way, but it is the way of American sports today. The truth of the matter is no one cares about hard work, they care about results. Is it right, hell no. But its the American way. And your statement “I don’t think like that” is myopic. You alone, do not mean squat and neither do I. Its the fans as a whole. Hence the reason I spoke about fans like us that like 1-0 games being the minority.
Its funny, you spend most of your life gripping a baseball. And in the end, its almost always the other way around.
LOU
How many guys get a contract offer because they work hard? Its not right, and I don’t like it. But is life.
Its funny, you spend most of your life gripping a baseball. And in the end, its almost always the other way around.
But is (it's) life.
I agree wholeheartedly w/that idea. But if we just give up by saying that is life, life will truly turn to .hit! I believe the vast majority of us are doing it right and a smaller (but growing percentage) are looking for the easy way to obtain the results. Doesn’t the hell that Alex Rodriguez et. al is going through prove that CHEATING ain’t the way to go?
If more than one person knows a secret, it ain't a secret.
by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on Feb 10, 2009 6:01 PM CST up reply actions
I am always shocked that
greenies gets a free pass. IMO, greenies is just as much a PED as steriods are. The players took them for reason yet when folks talk about PEDs they only ever bring up Steriods/HGH. If you factor greenies into the question, the PEDs era stretches way back into baseball history (i.e introduced to the league in the 40s).
"When two Whales Fight, many Shrimp Die" - Korean Proverb
Which is why I don't
Put the records of men that played in the 60s and 70s up for sainthood.
And the records of men set in the 20s and 30s are tainted because they didn’t have to face black or Latin pitchers or hitters.
Baseball records are flawed. That’s the dirty little secret George Will and Bob Costas hope you never learn.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
Agreed.
I will say this about amphetamines, though—if used too frequently, or at the wrong time, they could actually be a detriment to performance. An amphetamine habit takes a considerable amount of willpower to control. Pop some speed for a night game, and you will sleep fitfully, if at all, creating the need for another dose before the next day’s game.
Amphetamines are also a powerful appetite suppressant. If you don’t force yourself to eat something, you won’t eat, robbing your body of precious vitamins and nutrients for recovery purposes.
Think you’re jumpy after a cup of joe? Pop some speed and see what happens. I can see a lot of players swinging way early on an off-speed pitch because patience is the first virtue lost to the power of speed.
I think the amphetamine door swings both ways—at once an enhancement of performance and possible detriment. It’s therefore tough to quantify the competitive advantage derived from them, as also is true of steroids.
"They say we live and learn. Often what we learn is what damn fools we have been." ~Thomas Sowell
Admitting greenies are as much of a problem
…would indite the “golden era” of baseball that the nostalgic aging writers are trying to protect from the steroid generation.
None of them want to admit that their baseball heroes were probably just as guilty of PED use as this generation was.
Bang the Drum Slowly
I just finished it, and it made reference at one point to the main character taking a couple different coloured pills to give him a lift…that was back in 1952, assuming it’s somewhat factual.I loved the book, by the way!
I have nothing funny or creative to write.
by Canadian Cubs Fan on Feb 8, 2009 10:07 AM CST up reply actions
ARod is 1 of 104
As much as I hate the guy, he is being singled out. Why are the other 102 besides him and Bonds getting to keep their secret?
Release one name and ruin his rep…release them all.
I have nothing funny or creative to write.
by Canadian Cubs Fan on Feb 8, 2009 10:02 AM CST reply actions
Ask Clemens, Pettite, Giambi, Canseco (many on my list above)
Those have been thrown out there also, but unlike ARod, Clemens and Bonds, the others admitted, said they made a big mistake, and tha public accepted that they didn’t feed them a line of crap. The ones being singled out now are those who continue to lie and hide their secret world that we have been made aware of.
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
Okay, fair enough
that still leaves more than 90 guys that have for whatever reason flown under the radar. They may have been lesser players, or weren’t as “intreaguing” for the media, but they deserve the same treatment.
I have nothing funny or creative to write.
by Canadian Cubs Fan on Feb 8, 2009 10:25 AM CST up reply actions
By 104
I mean the guys that tested positive in 2003…
I have nothing funny or creative to write.
by Canadian Cubs Fan on Feb 8, 2009 10:33 AM CST up reply actions
Like Andy Pettitte...
… if A-Rod would step up, say he did it, say he isn’t any more (if he isn’t), and apologize, I think people would forgive.
It’s the lies and stonewalling that has contributed to the great fall from grace of Roger Clemens.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
+1
I mentioned this as well, that Giambi and Petitte both came forward, said YUP WE DID and people accepted that they made a wrong choice, but didnt try to b.s. their way out of it.
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
yeah, I completely agree with this
Erm, well if we are going to call Milton Bradley nicknames, mine is Fischer Price: yes, you heard it here first..
Does anyone else think that the HR barrage of the late 90s ...
… and early 00’s was not completely caused by steroids? I think its possible the huge HR #s were as much about bad pitching, small strike zones, hard, dry baseballs and small stadiums. Now the strike zone is bigger, pitching seems a little bit better, the balls are likely softer and wetter (humidor effect). The stadiums are still small but it seems to me the ball just doesn’t carry like it did six or seven years ago. Am I crazy?
"We gotta circle the bandwagons." - Devin Hester
+1
The pitching was talent was thinned, the balls were wrapped tighter, the bats were made lighter with a bigger sweet spot, and (still today) you cannot pitch inside without a warning too often.
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
What about more aggressive PED testing?
You left off your list a key factor (to me THE key factor) in why HR numbers have dropped: More aggressive PED testing.
I believe 2004 began regular testing. 2003 was a supposedly anonymous test.
The effects of your other points are debatable – Is the strike zone bigger? Are baseballs different now? But one thing we do know is that the drop in HR numbers coincides with PED testing.
Another factor could be when two teams were added back in 98
I mean that was the best season for a player to go on a home run record chase, given the diluting of talent in the league
Erm, well if we are going to call Milton Bradley nicknames, mine is Fischer Price: yes, you heard it here first..
If some are sure it is 100% tainted and that there is nothing good left in it
why dont they just leave the basebal world? No one is forcing you to watch it, to go to the game, to listen to it, to read about it, to talk about it, to blog about it or to even acknowledge it exists.
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
People can't keep citing "he got huge in a hurry"
as undeniable proof. Most of the users aren’t overwhelming physical specimens. Sergio Mitre? Ismael Valdez? Benito Santiago? Wally Joyner? Paul Byrd? These guys aren’t freak athletes. There just a handful of players looking to gain an advantage.
It’s ridiculous to condemn anyone in this era without including the entire context. Many of A-Rod’s HRs probably came off juiced pitchers. People keep wanting to pinpoint specific culprits without acknowledging the rest.
Free Ronny Cedeno
I bet
more used it for healing when injured and then to stay healthy than to produce big time HR’s, but that is being ignored. Not saying I agree with it and that makes it ok, but it is a likely thing.
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
ESPN reporting Rodriguez admitted to taking steroids from 2001-03
Peter Gammons is sitting down for 1-on-1 interview now, Tirico just reported the admission during “Tirico and Van Pelt.”
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
WOW!
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
Yawn
No positive test since 2003? And he still is one of the best players in the game?
Wake me when it’s over.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
He averaged 12 more homeruns from 2001-03 than he has before or since
So I’d say there could be something to that – he’s still great, but for some time, he was even better because he artificially enhanced himself.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
You know who else artificially enhanced themselves?
Pitchers who had Tommy John surgery
Players who take cortisone shots to keep playing
Hitters who get elective Lasik surgery to improve their vision
Every single player who took amphetamines.
The whining is unseemly. People cheat. Other sports don’t poop their pants over it.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
Comparing Tommy John surgery to anabolic steroid use is ridiculous
Alex Rodriguez used an illegal substance to artificially enhance his performance and cheat.
Was he alone? Certainly not, and nor should he be the only one to receive public rebuke.
But to allow yourself to be marketed as “the one who will erase the stain of Barry Bonds” and to use steroids yourself is highly hypocritical.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
And what was he supposed to do?
When people started marketing him that way, was he supposed to say, “Sorry guys, I cheated too?”
Man, people must really be giving their Waltons DVDs a workout this week.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
I'm no moralist
I won’t sit here and say I wouldn’t have taken steroids. If I could have made X-amount of dollars doing so, there’s a chance I would have.
Yes, he chose to live the lie. That’s the problem. Alex Rodriguez (and others) were given the choice between right and wrong. And that’s bothersome to a lot of people, understandably.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
your logic is horrible
you are comparing legal surgery to narcotics illegal by Federal Law. That is like saying that it is ok to murder a person with a car, since the car hit them not because you were drunk and driving.
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
my logic?
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
Oh please
You’ve been trying to get nibbles with your War on Drugs posts for a while now. They are boring me.
Narcotics? Seriously? These guys should WISH this was about narcotics, because the 80s drug users didn’t face half the nonsense these guys are facing.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
Would someone please tell Michael to pass the...
If more than one person knows a secret, it ain't a secret.
by LOUtheMETandNATSfan on Feb 10, 2009 6:03 PM CST up reply actions
Again
Lets look at the whole ugly picture if we are going to talk about this topic. The drug problem went way beyond Steriods (i.e. amphetamines) yet everyone continues to want to only rail on the steriod guys. I don’t condone the activity but I am not foolish enough to believe that the steriods era is bounded from 1998 to 2004 nor am I foolish enough to believe that greenies did not have a perfomancing enhancing effect for generations of ballplayers (i.e. begin in the 40s).
I think until people want to look at the whole picture I think folks are just wasting their time couching the argument to only steriods and to only from 1998 to 2004.
"When two Whales Fight, many Shrimp Die" - Korean Proverb
by TheRiot Police on Feb 10, 2009 11:21 AM CST up reply actions
Said he was trying to justify his contract
and show people he was worth $200 million.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
I wonder if
any of the players who were having “Visa Problems” in the past were cleaning their system in case they were tested upon arrival.
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
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