OT-- Greatest pitcher/hitter of all time
by cubfanwill on Feb 9, 2009 1:11 PM CST
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PrintAs we all wait for Spring Training to begin, I want to hear everyone's opinions. Who is the greatest pitcher of all time?
My choice is: The big train, Walter Johnson Just look at these numbers
Who's your pick?
Johnson, Maddux, Spahn, Carlton, Seaver, Koufax, the list goes on
Now it's time for the hitters. Ted Williams is my choice.
Who's your pick?
Cobb, Gehrig, Mays, Dimaggio, Ruth
Just some fun until we can start watching baseball again!!!
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
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Roger Clemens and Barry Bonds
Everyone cheats. Some just weren’t caught. Therefore, they are the best.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
I still don't think they are the best even with those stats
I’m going old school: Babe Ruth and Walter Johnson
Post World War II: Ted Williams (stretch here) and Greg Maddux
#34: You'll be missed!
It's very tough to compare players from such different eras.
Yes, Walter Johnson put up monster numbers while pitching mostly for a second division team. Still, how would he have fared against modern hitters, african americans, etc.?
My choice for greatest pitcher would be Sandy Koufax. In his prime, he was by far the most dominating pitcher in baseball. His lifetime stats aren’t earthshaking only because he chose to retire at 31 due to persistent arm problems.
Hard to argue with Ted Williams as the greatest hitter though-especially when he factor in all of the prime years he lost to the military.
Bill James once rated pitchers by "peak value" and "career value".
Obviously, Koufax’ career was short, but his peak from 1962-66 may have been better than anyone’s.
For career value, I’d go for Walter Johnson. You can’t say “how would he have fared against modern hitters, African-Americans”, because a) he didn’t have the chance and b) if he DID have the chance, I suspect he’d have made the necessary adjustments to succeed.
The greatest hitter? To me, a toss-up: Cobb, Williams or Ruth.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
Ruth he changed the world
Piniella: "This is a tougher job than I thought it would be, I'm going to be honest with you."
Koufax was dominating...
As far as dominating goes, you could put Pedro Martinez up there http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/martipe02.shtml For about 6 or 7 years, he was unstoppable
Maddux At Peak
Greg Maddux from 1992-1998 was incredible. I’m glad 1992 was with the Cubs. He won 4 Cy Youngs and never had a WHIP over 1.049 during those seven seasons. BTW, his career numbers weren’t too bad either.
"The big possum walks late." - Harry Caray
Well
Pitching, if I had to win one game- Sandy Koufax. The guy was simply untouchable in his prime.
Hitting, if I needed a hit, Ty Cobb. He’d do anything to get on base. Anything. I just likely wouldn’t buy him a beer lately because he was such a jerk as a person.
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
Man, I am King of the Typos
“wouldn’t buy him a beer later”
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
Different eras
are impossible to compare.
Therefore I say:
Best HItter: Ruth
Best Pitcher: Ruth
HA
by jbertram on Feb 9, 2009 1:21 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
You have a point.
Ruth COULD have become one of the greatest pitchers ever had he stuck to pitching.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
Exactly...
Let’s imagine if…
Rick Ankiel had actually been a fantastic pitcher and then became the greatest home run hitter the game had ever seen all in a 15 year span.
I’d love to look up stats from Ruth pitching, but my work as officially banned baseball reference…whoops.
Yes. Unfortunately, we don't know what would have happened.
I suspect Josh Gibson would have had a better career as a hitter than Ruth did.
You’re right — I should have been more specific in my original below, too.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Feb 9, 2009 2:12 PM CST up reply actions
jbertram is right
Ruth is the greatest all-time.
Not only was he a great pitcher and a great hitter:
— He was the best HR hitter of all time (AB/HR)
— He revolutionized the game
— He hit more HR’s than entire teams
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
He never...
…faced a Latin, black or Asian pitcher in a game that counted.
…faced a split-fingered fastball
…played a night game or west of the Mississippi in a game that counted
…faced a relief specialist
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
I'll concede the point on the competition. It's damn valid.
As far as the rest:
Split fingered — he faced spitballs and played in the dead-ball era.
Night game/west of Mississippi:
Travelled by train — never flew first class or had the shorter trips.
Faced relief specialist:
Played in an era with a lot less teams, and therefore logically, the competition was tougher to make an MLB pitching staff.
Relief specialist, part 2:
Played in an era when pitching and defense were much more dominant than they are today.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Feb 9, 2009 2:11 PM CST up reply actions
Continuing..
Spitballs/dead-ball — He did for part of his career, but the bulk of his production came after spitballs were banned and the ball was livened up. Incidentally, the bulk of his pitching production came when spitters were legal
Train travel/first class — I’ll concede the train, although I think the shorter trips is wrong. If there is no team west of St. Louis and no team south of Washington, isn’t every trip a shorter trip?
Relief specialist — Yes, the competition was tougher, and I’ll go further and say that the best (white) athletes of the world at that time were playing baseball, since football and basketball were either not around or very limited.
However, many of Ruth’s homers came off of tired starters. You simply weren’t pulled from games.
As far as the defense, it’s true that it might have been EMPHASIZED more, but I disagree that it was better. Today’s gloves alone probably rob Ruth of 15-20 percent of his doubles.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
Continuing, continued
Spitballs — the gist of what you say is true. They were being phased out.
Deadball — his HR power had a lot to do with the game being changed.
Long trip — I meant time, not distance
Tired starters — have you researched this? I honestly don’t know his HR breakdown by inning.
Defense — yes. I worded that poorly. I did mean emphasized more, especially over hitting.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Feb 9, 2009 3:21 PM CST up reply actions
Ruth was STEROID FREE...just booze
If you had to choose just one characteristic that would get you through life, choose a sense of humor.
Indeed
Not that I’d advocate that, but . . . .
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Feb 9, 2009 3:35 PM CST up reply actions
Let's remove the race card.
While Ruth didn’t face any Latinos or blacks, neither did they face any whites/Caucasians.
Can’t say one group was better than the other, but can clearly point to Ruth’s statistics and draw some fairly amazing conclusions.
"Happiness? A good cigar, a good meal, a good cigar and a good woman - or a bad woman; it depends on how much happiness you can handle." ~ George Burns
I think it's safe to say....
that when we are discussing players this great, no matter what era they are from, that Cobb, Ruth, Josh Gibson, Satchel Paige, and so many others would have been dominating players in any era, against any and all competition, whether they were red, yellow, black, white, blue, or purple. And if today’s players were POD-free, I don’t think they would stand a chance against the players of the old school eras.
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004
he also
had a much softer ball, heavier bat, larger fields, had a work out instructor, etc.
Worf, all due respect, every post you seem to make is nothing but negative or a repeat of what you have said twenty times in twenty other threads (or so it seems). We all get your points, you can say something new now.
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
Best I've seen play in my 45 year lifetime
Pitcher – Randy Johnson, Steve Carlton (tie)
Pure Hitter – George Brett, Tony Gwyne (tie)
Impact Hitter – Frank Thomas, Albert Pujols (tie)
Pujols
He’s got the potential to have a better career than Brett, Gwynn, and Thomas. Pujols has the great ability to hit for both power and average. Manny Ramirez and Alex Rodriguez can also do that.
"The big possum walks late." - Harry Caray
I've wondered about this one too, but with a slight twist...
Standing out on Waveland for hours at a time can be pretty boring sometimes so stuff like this comes up all the time.
My twist on it is this… pretend you’re at the plate. Not you being Ryno or Sammy or Hawk or anyone else – just you, whoever you are. The game is on the line and you need a hit. Who is the one guy you absolutely positively in your worst nightmares do you NOT want to see on the mound.
To me, it’s simple. Bob Gibson.
Then flip it around… pretend you’re on the mound, the game is on the line and you need to get the batter out. Who is the one guy you absolutely positively do not want to see at the plate.
This one is a little harder, but the vast majority of the times I play this in my head, it comes up George Brett.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
If I am batting
It could be Koyie Hill!
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Feb 9, 2009 3:21 PM CST up reply actions
The Ryan Express
Would not want to face him…or Drysdale.
"Ask Dad. He'll know. And on the off chance he doesn't, he'll make up something good"
Brett In Postseason
He hit .337/.397/.627 in 43 postseason games. The guy was a clutch hitter. Goose Gossage certainly knows that.
"The big possum walks late." - Harry Caray
agree with Gibson
to a degree…..if I’m hitting right-handed. Although I wouldn’t have wanted to face Ryne Duren either with that fastball and those Coke bottle glasses. Hitting lefthanded you can take your pick between Koufax and R. Johnson.
"This is a game to be savored, not gulped. There's time to discuss everything between pitches or between innings." -- Bill Veeck
I'm partial
to Maddux. 300+ wins during an era where many hitters had beyond natural strength and bat speed. 162 game seasons, multiple playoff rounds, etc.
As for hitters, I heard about Ruth, Gibson, and Cobb, but I saw Bench, Rose, Schmidt, Jackson and Gwynn. If not for the asterisk, I’d even include Bonds.
Cy Young/Ted Williams
If you had to choose just one characteristic that would get you through life, choose a sense of humor.
Interesting tidbit about Cy Young
Most folks know he won the most games in MLB history – 511. Ironically enough, he also lost the most – 316. Granted, different eras, different rules, different conditions, etc. but still…
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
And he pitched 7,350 innings over 22yrs for a .618 winning%..........
in an era with no relief pitchers. I think his durability and length of service puts him above the rest.
If you had to choose just one characteristic that would get you through life, choose a sense of humor.
I'm not sure that durability and length of service does it for me
Would Julio Franco be a HOF-er based on those criteria?
I know what you meant, but wins and winning pct aren’t good ways to evaluate a pitcher.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Feb 9, 2009 3:23 PM CST up reply actions
If wins and % don't count...
then what does?
If you had to choose just one characteristic that would get you through life, choose a sense of humor.
They count, but that's not a great measure
If you throw a 3-hit, one run game and lose, 1-0, does that make you a bad pitcher, even on that day?
They are very dependent on the team around you.
The bottom line for the team is to win. However, that doesn’t mean that tells the story about the individuals.
Another scenario — the starter goes 5 innings and leaves, leading 5-3. A reliever comes in and throws 3 perfect innings while his team adds a run. The closer pitches an inning, giving up two runs. We have a starter with a win, a reliever with a save, and a reliever with neither. Who was the most effective of the group? Who was the better pitcher that day?
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Feb 9, 2009 3:37 PM CST up reply actions
Those are valid points in today's game, but truely exceptions in his time.....
Cy Young dominated over a 22 yr career with very little, if any, relief
If you had to choose just one characteristic that would get you through life, choose a sense of humor.
No question he was dominant
I wouldn’t use just W’s and Pct as a measuring stick.
However, it’s not like you made a terrible choice for pitcher . . . just not one that I’d necessarily agree with.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on Feb 9, 2009 4:13 PM CST up reply actions
understood :)
If you had to choose just one characteristic that would get you through life, choose a sense of humor.
like Nolan Ryan
more strike outs, most walks
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
George Brett For His Time
I think Brett gets lost in the shuffle because he played during the 1970’s and 1980’s in a lower offensive era than today. In 1976, he had six straight 3-hit games. He is the only American League player ever with at least 300 HR’s, 3000 hits, and .300 career batting average. He hit .390 battling hemorrhoids in 1980.
In the AL, Alex Rodriguez still needs 596 more hits to get to 3000. Derek Jeter still needs 94 more HR’s to get to 300. Jeter is 465 hits short of 3000. Manny Ramirez could stay in the NL. Brett could be the only AL member of the 300 HR/3000 hit/.300 BA club for another three or four years. Aaron, Mays, and Musial are in the club in the National League.
"The big possum walks late." - Harry Caray
What about Pete Rose...
I’m not old enough to have seen him play, but over 4200 hits!!! Wanna bet? :)
Greatest gambler for sure
If you had to choose just one characteristic that would get you through life, choose a sense of humor.
Regardless of any personal opinion of the jerk
that is Pete Rose and opinion on his gambling habits, he racked up 4200 hits.
Whether or not he struck out or GIDP on purpose to tank games is possible with his gambling habits (I know he only has admitted to betting on his team while managing), but you have to be a great hitter to get that many.
Rose isn't even in the top 50 highest BA
If you had to choose just one characteristic that would get you through life, choose a sense of humor.
Bill Madlock and Rod Carew
Bill Madlock had a higher batting average than Pete Rose. Madlock hit .305, and Rose hit .303. Most of Madlock’s career was in the National League, while Rose was still playing. Madlock had less than half the at-bats Rose did. Rose was not the best hitter of his generation. Rod Carew was a great hitter for average, who didn’t hit for much power. As far as hitters for average and not for power go in Rose’s era, Carew was the best.
"The big possum walks late." - Harry Caray
Not the greatest of all time...
in terms of all-around talent, but I do say he was probably the most consistent, the most durable, the most passionate, and the toughest competitor of all time. And the fact that he did it all without POD’s. Also remember that defensively, he played almost every position except pitcher and catcher, and excelled at all of them. In fact, I think he is the only player to play over 500 games at five different positions, or something like that. A flawed human being for sure. But he belongs in any discussion about the greatest players of all time, Hall of Fame or no Hall of Fame.
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004
Of which....
3,215 were singles; a great hitter but not the greatest
If you had to choose just one characteristic that would get you through life, choose a sense of humor.
Wow, tough calls here...
My short list of best hitters depends on the specifics of the question, but it comes down to Williams or Ruth. Williams, in my opinion, could have had a much better career than Ruth if not for multiple seasons missed because of multiple wars. Williams missed some prime years and could have easily gotten past 600hr, maybe 700. As for Ruth, he didnt miss time like Williams and put up amazing stats.
For pitchers I think more thought has to go into the question, and you’ve got to include different eras and different types of baseball, but Maddux, Koufax, Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez, Nolan Ryan and plenty of others should be in the discussion. If I had to take just one in their prime, I’d go with Pedro or Maddux.
One thing you learned as a Cubs fan: when you bought you ticket, you could bank on seeing the bottom of the ninth.
Joe Garagiola
Guess who I vote for ?
Honestly I can’t compare well between eras anyway, too many variables.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Funny you should mention that
When I first looked at it quickly I thought the question was WHO WAS THE BEST HITTING PITCHER ? and I am thinking I LOVE Madog but unless the sole qualification for hitting is sacrifice bunts I don’t know how he got on that list.
Worth noting for fun is that Maddux twice achieved on of his favorite goals, a higher BA than ERA and seeing as Maddux was never that good a hitter that is pretty good.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Feb 9, 2009 4:16 PM CST up reply actions
The best hitting pitcher of all time....
… is probably Walter Johnson.
He had 547 career hits and hit .235/.274/.342 for his career with 24 HR.
In 1925, at age 37, he hit .433/.455/.577 — 42-for-97 with 6 doubles, a triple, 2 HR and 20 RBI.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
That's my problem
Baseball records really don’t translate from era to era. That’s the dirty little secret Bob Costas hopes you never discover.
Prior to 1947, no pitcher or hitter had to face a Latin, black or Asian hitter or pitcher
Prior to 1969, every hitter had to face a pitcher standing on a 15-inch mound
I don’t know when the big gloves come into being, but before they did, hitters got more doubles and pitchers gave up more.
Single season records post-1961 are suspect.
Travel, nutrition, medical advances, the rise of football, basketball and soccer, the adding of teams, the increase in salaries, all contribute to changing the game.
I’ve argued with Shanghai about Babe Ruth, but I can just as easily argue the other side.
Ruth hit his homers off pitchers on a 15-inch mound. He hit at a time when the best (white) arms were playing baseball, not football, and the best fielders were playing baseball, not soccer or basketball. He didn’t have any nutritional or medical knowledge and did not have the luxury of viewing his at-bats or pitchers on DVD (debatable whether he would have)
He traveled by train and played every game in the heat of the day while wearing wool.
And so on and so forth.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
I think that...
… any player who played in those bygone eras, who was suddenly confronted with today’s game — day/night games, better nutrition and workout routines, coast to coast travel, and far better competition, would have adjusted his game to succeed in whatever era he played in.
It is true that any of today’s great hitters or pitchers would have been legendary superstars in the 1920’s. But the legendary superstars of that day, I believe, would have worked to become so today if they suddenly appeared in 2009.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
I believe many fans are angry at the PED issue
as comparison of a player of one era with another of a different era is part of what many see as fun in baseball. The variables are less than in say Football or Basketball as the team is much more important.
The addition of an artificial substance that improves bat speed and power brutalizes those comparisons and takes the fun out of it.
If Babe Ruth played in this era for the Yankees, he would have hit over 1,000 home runs
given park size
#34: You'll be missed!
Babe Ruth
would be John Daly today. A fat, out-of-shape, tabloid-fodder loser of a drunk.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
We can always count on you for an uplifting note
Jeez you are making Blou ( blue mike) look like a nice guy.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Feb 10, 2009 12:58 AM CST up reply actions
I don't know about today's players....
playing in the old school era. The game was so much rougher and tougher then. No batting helmets, pitchers throwing at guy’s heads for their own personal amusement, rookies being treated like garbage by veteran players, small gloves, etc. There is no doubt that with athletic trainers, medical treatment, video footage, nutrition, and the list goes on and on, that today’s players are bigger, stronger, and better all-around athletes. But I’m not sure today’s players could handle the game the way it used to be. To hear Ron Santo talk about facing guys like Don Drysdale and Bob Gibson….you just don’t see guys like that anymore except for maybe Randy Johnson and Roger Clemens. Unfortunately, we could debate this all day, but we’ll never know for sure.
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004
I like...
Maddux’s finesse. Ruth hit more homers than entire teams and could shut them out with his arm, too. I think if Pujols keeps it up, he may go down in history as the best or one of the best.
But my favorite batter to watch – that belongs to Tony Gywnn.
Dan
Evey Hammond: Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici. V: By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.
Stan Musial?
Lou Gehrig?
Tris Speaker?
As well as, of course, Ruth, Cobb and Williams.
"A child of five would understand this. Send someone to fetch a child of five." ~Groucho Marx
Tough
Best Pure Hitter – Williams
Best ever player – Ruth
Best Pitcher – Koufax, (Bob Feller a close second if not for serving in the military for as long as he did)
You could also argue that Cobb was the greatest hitter, but i’ll take williams for the added power
"The more i practice, the luckier i seem to get" -Yogi Berra
Cobb today would be the Gary Sheffield of baseball
A very great hitter but nobody liked him because of his ego issues
#34: You'll be missed!
Christy Matthewson and Ted Williams
Christy’s 27 scoreless innings for 3 complete game World Series wins, all in the same series. I take my hat off to that, and I named my son Ted after the great one. His #’s are amazing, and when you look at what he would have had had he not left to be a fighter pilot in two wars. Home run in his last at bat.
I have emotional ties to both, and I guess that is why you pick them as the best, no matter what other stats are put in front of you.
Good Guys Wear Blue
Have to say Ted Williams and Cy Young.
I wish I had been alive in 1957 to see a Yankees/Red Sox game, Mantle vs. Williams. And since no one will ever again in a million years win more than 20 games in 15 separate seasons (with or without enhancements), Young gets my vote for greatest pitcher.
Best player ever: Sadly, even in his prime, the Babe would be no match for Bonds. I must reluctantly admit that.
"They say we live and learn. Often what we learn is what damn fools we have been." ~Thomas Sowell
smart man
Bonds is the greatest hitter after 1960, with or without steroids. You show me someone that really cares about steroids in baseball and I’’ll use there head to show them the difference in power with steroids and without steroids…remember, the pitchers in this era were also using roids…or did folks misremember. I’m so fed up with steroids in baseball that the only thing I care about in baseball now is the Cubs winning the WS. Everything else is yada, yada, yada.
Albert Pujols
His peak years might not be as good as Ruth, Bonds, Williams or Foxx, but he is the most consistent player to play the game.
vivaelbeñsheets
In light of A-Roid
If the players from today’s era are not “welcomed” in the HOF because of roids, then the players from pre-war era shouldn’t be allowed in the conversation of the greatest of all time right? Think about it, all the players post 1950, played against all races, however as pointed out, the players pre-1947 played only against white people. The numbers, IMO, can’t be justified. That’s not to say they wouldn’t have played well, we just don’t know. So with the argument, Ted Williams is the greatest hitter of all time in any era, period. This is not my opinion it’s a fact. If you need me to list his stats than I will, but look for yourself the numbers Ted put up…don’t forget that he missed 5 years to the war, years that could have made him the HR champ with a career 344 avg. Some of the stats that I found interesting (comparing him to Babe, who many think is the greatest hitter of all time) he avg 10 more walks a season than Babe, and 36 less k’s (over 162 game avg). Not only is he the greatest hitter of all time, he saw the ball better than any player in the history of the game. BTW, he missed on 3 MVP awards (to yankees) when he should have won them…he could, should have won the MVP award 4 straight seasons…some could argue 6 straight from 41-49 (missed 3 years due to the war).
As far as the greatest pitcher…I really don’t care but to pick one pitcher, I’d give Greg Maddox the nod…Pedro and Sandy a close second
Well put and spoken,Mr Bishop.And I am a loyal RedSox fan.Isaw him play in the early and later 50’s,when we got our first TV.He indeed could hit.And actually, when he hit .406,in ‘41,you obviously know he was denied MVP because of a sports writer,who obviously did not like Ted,left him off the ballot……but that’s not where I was going with this post….In those or at least that year sacrifice flies were included as time at bat .So,Ted was denied something like 6 more points (don’t hold me to it)So he actually would have batted something like .412 maybe…….But as much as I appreciated Williams,I like Mays better.He was the complete ballplayer..could do it all…he lost to almost 2 years too.1953,54…..HAD 660 HRS, drive you crazy on the paths,ran like a gazzelle and smooth as silk in the field……those were the days……….My favorite pitcher….Koufax,although there were many debatable players…..That’s when BB was at it’s best
by LittleRhodyJack on Feb 9, 2009 11:47 PM CST reply actions
Agreed as the greatest PLAYER all time but not as the greatest HITTER...
remember the topic is about the greatest hitter of all time not the greatest player of all time…i’d probably put Mays slightly above Bonds…after those two though, well the list gets really long. As a matter of fact, i don’t know that Mays would make my list of top 10 hitters of all time…(in no specific order) Williams, Ruth, Bonds, Gwynn, Boggs, Cobb, Musial, Speaker, Gehrig, Hornsby, Joe Jackson, Jimmi Fox, Aaron, DiMaggio, Pujols (can’t argue it…), Sisler…that’s 15 players, no Mays no Mantle, it sucks but there aren’t any Cubs either (unless you count Hornsby and Fox). I may add guys and remove guys if I had time to research this more but based on what I remember from the history of the game these are the guys I always thought of as the greatest HITTERS.
Honorable mention to Mantle
Mickey Mantle played his entire career in intense pain in both legs. One leg was from a HS football injury, and the other was from catching his spikes in a sprinkler while attempting to catch a fly ball in the World Series as a rookie.
Both legs had to be tightly taped before each game, just so he could actually run. And in his early years as a Yankee, he ran indeed. He hit for a lot of power, but he also hit for average. Had it not been for injuries and booze, Mantle may have been right with Mays the whole way.
"I lof to hit de home ron!"
The Mick
I’ve heard quite a few people say, including Harry Caray, that if Mantle had not gotten hurt as a rookie, he would have been the greatest of all time. What he did over his career, through all the injuries, is amazing.
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004
Agreed about Mantle.
The Cubs’ own Ernie Banks might have been at that level if not for the serious injuries he suffered in 1956 and 1961, the latter of which forced him away from SS to 1B.
From 1955 to 1960 Banks hit 40+ homers five out of those six seasons. Aaron and Mays never did that. Banks was on his way to a 600+ HR career before the injuries; the injuries probably also deprived him of a 3000-hit career.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
Booze
If some of his numbers could have been better if he wasn’t drinking then shame on him. I will say though the injuries really hurt his chance of being the greatest of all time. I still think of him as one of the G.O.A.T, but i put Mays and Bonds ahead of him, but put him ahead of guys like Ruth and Williams.
Greatest All-Around Players
I go with Ruth, Mays, and Joe DiMaggio. Ruth, for obvious reasons discussed above, and the fact that he was also a great pitcher, which is something that has never been duplicated since. Mays and DiMaggio were the prototypical Five-Tool players. They excelled in every phase of the game, although Mays lasted longer. If you look at DiMaggio’s career, he was never the same after he got back from the war.
You also have to give props to Ted Williams and Bob Feller. As great as their career stats are, who knows what they would have done had they not spent all those years in the military, and in the prime of their careers, no less.
Greatest pitcher of all-time though? Gotta go with Walter Johnson. His career numbers are simply mind-boggling, then consider that he played almost his entire career with a terrible team behind him. Only at the very end of his career did he finally get rewarded with a great team that won the World Series.
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004
Hmmm...pitchers
Lefty Grove hasn’t been mentioned, not once, in all the above posts. That seems strange to me. Grove’s numbers are as good as anybody else’s, considering that his career lines up almost exactly with the most hitter-friendly era ever. His career totals are held down a bit by the fact that he was stuck in the minors for a few extra years (he wasn’t blocked or anything – there were no farm systems then and he pitched for Baltimore, which was making a healthy profit and didn’t need to sell their superstar pitcher). Grove led his league in just about everything, finishing in the top 5 in most statistical categories almost every season of his career. And he was terrific in the World Series too. I’m not sure if he’d be my final answer as “The Greatest Pitcher Ever” but I’m comfortable saying he was the best left-hander, over Spahn, Randy Johnson, and Koufax.
The two other pitchers from that era that deserve a mention are Carl Hubbell and Satchel Paige. Of course, it’s entirely speculative to say what Paige would have done in the majors but all the anecdotal evidence suggests he would have been among the names mentioned in the greatest pitcher debate. He was certainly durable, maybe the most durable pitcher ever. It seems reasonable to say that his durability would have allowed him to win an astounding number of games, even if his rate stats weren’t off the charts.
I’ve noticed that pitchers whose careers fell between WWI and the 1960s are almost entirely left out of this discussion, probably because the game favored hitters so much in those decades that pitchers didn’t dominate as they did before or after. I guess my point is that two pitchers, Hubbell and Grove, were as dominant as Pedro or Gibson or whoever and a third, Paige, was probably every bit as good even if he doesn’t have the statistical record to prove it.
Finally, Warren Spahn hasn’t been mentioned except in the original fanpost. Spahn wasn’t lights-out dominant like some other lefties such as Randy Johnson but he went out and won 20 games almost every year, for nearly two decades. There’s a lot of value in knowing that a guy’s going to be among the best starters in baseball, every year. However, consistency doesn’t catch the eye in the same way that the ability to occasionally obliterate the other team does…it makes me wonder if Maddux isn’t going to get slighted in this discussion a few decades from now.
"Some people will look at a glass of water and say it's half-empty, while another guy will look at it and say it's half-full. A Cubs fan looks at the same glass and asks, "When's it gonna spill?" - Mike Royko
I'd put Grove right behind Walter Johnson.
He is the greatest left-hander ever, IMO.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
No question...
…in my mind that the most dominant pitcher of all time was Koufax. He may not have had the longevity, but he pitched with stuff that would have landed guys like Mark Prior on the 300 day DL.
The best hitter was Williams, bar none. If he wouldn’t have lost years to the war (2 wars), he would have also had close to 700 dings.
The greatest player (IMO) was Willie Mays.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
Extrapolating Williams' numbers...
… for the four and a half years he missed, he would have had about 660 HR — close to what Mays had — and probably 3300 hits. He nearly hit .400 a second time, .388 at age 38 in 1957.
He also would have had 700 or so more walks, which would have him in first place there, about 600 more RBI, which would have him in first place there, and about 600 more runs, which would have him in first place there.
Williams used to say that he wanted to walk down the street and have people think, “There goes Ted Williams, the greatest fucking hitter of all time.” (Profanity used because he actually said that.)
He’s probably correct.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
Thank you Al...
well said…but after doing some research…Gehrig’s not far behind…may even be better…now that would make for a good debate
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