The Asterisk
by Cubbie-Tim on Feb 9, 2009 4:22 PM CST
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PrintWith the recent admittance of steroid use by Alex Rodriguez, and others who are being brought up for perjury (Bonds and Clemens), this some questions.
Many which we have been talking about:
Who else?
Did this person?
Did that person?
Should call them all guilty until proven innocent?
I want to know, what about the use of an asterisk. Many want it, but only mention placing it on the offensive player (Mainly Bonds for breaking Aaron’s mark) who put up the Home Runs in massive amounts. I want to know your thoughts:
Do we put an asterisk next to each pitcher during the same era, since his Home Runs given up, ERA, Walk to Strike Out ratio and Runs Scored Again were affected by this same person who is being vilified for their use of steroids?
There could be a few pitchers who their numbers might have been HOF worthy had they not been pitching to those who have been proven guilty in the steroid scandal, along with those who have yet to come clean (on their own, or were forced to a failed test coming to the surface). How does that come into play then?
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
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While I am unhappy on the use of PED's
and how it impacts comparison of one generation to another, this is an awful slippery slope.
Does the asterisk apply to guys suspected of using greenies? Corking the bat? Stealing signs? Scuffing the ball? Spitballs? Umpire error?
Only guys caught with hard evidence?
I just don’t know where to draw the line.
The asterisk...........
doesn’t work. MLB proved that once already
If you had to choose just one characteristic that would get you through life, choose a sense of humor.
then if tearing apart the stats of those who benefitted
what do you do to the stats of those who were clean? their stats do not reflect proper as well.
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
they get little smiley faces next to their numbers... ;-)
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Lack of Recognition By the Public...
makes a bigger statement than an asterisk. I don’t think Barry Bonds should have an asterisk by his all-time home run record. I believe the public still recognizes Hank Aaron as the true home run king, and Bonds can’t do anything about that.
"The big possum walks late." - Harry Caray
Aaron should have an asterisk
He hit homers off of pitchers on a 10-foot mound and got to be a DH.
Ruth didn’t.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
A 10-inch mound, you mean.
And as you have pointed out, Ruth didn’t have to face the great black pitchers of his era.
Call it even?
FWIW, Aaron hit 22 of his HR as a DH — still would have passed Ruth.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
How many more would Ruth have hit
if he could have been a DH for the latter part of his career.
No, it’s not even. Eras aren’t even.
Which is why asterisks are stupid.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
The "latter part"?
Did you even read what I wrote? 22 of 755 HR for Aaron as a DH. He played two seasons out of 23 in that role.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
Al
you are wasting your time. Worf knows all, we should bow down to him, and if any of us are not aware of that, he will happily tell us so in his “f-u” style of posting, and his ability to disregard what opinions others have.
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
Oh, sorry.
I forgot.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
Given Ruth's battles with weight
He’d have played longer and been more productive had he been a DH.
Eras aren’t equal.
And Al, don’t bow down to his level. Disagreement isn’t hate.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
Wait, whose level am I bowing down to?
Yours?
You’re right, eras aren’t equal. You say that Ruth would have been a fat has-been today. I disagree — I say he’d have made the necessary adjustments to succeed.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
With today's media?
He would have flopped and flopped hard.
A few good years at most, before the NY media destroys him.
I’ll buy Ted Williams adjusting, because he had work ethic.
But not Ruth.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
Ruth destroyed by the NY media? Hardly
Remember what Ruth said when he shook hands with President Calvin Coolidge?
“Hot as hell, ain’t it Prez?”
This after all the other Yankee teammates and coaches did the usual, respectful “Mr. President” and handshakes…
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
The media protected him
He was having sex with anything that didn’t run from him, drinking his weight in beer and eating more hot dogs than God could create.
In the camera phone generation, he’s in jail for killing someone.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
Maybe.
Or, maybe he adjusts to his times, becomes the likeable celebrity in NYC.
Or maybe he stays in Boston and becomes Manny Ramirez.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
Nothing in Ruth's personality
Shows a capacity for adjustment. Ted Williams, yes. Lou Gehrig, yes.
But not Ruth.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
and in the wild wild west generation
you would have been gunned downed in a saloon a long time ago.
What’s your point? Besides hyperbole and exaggeration, I mean…
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
and
there is no telling if Ruth would have given up the cigars and alcohol, to train. he may not have even made it to the bigs.
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
See???
You DO have a brain! Stop talking about Asians and apply logic!
I’m willing to be your Mr. Miyagi. Let me train you, Daniel-San!
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
its posts like this
that make you seem like a bitter ass clown.
have you actually paid attention to other posts of mine, or just the one making a point that the Asian players seem to have shown the fans and the sport the respect others did not. If you do not like a post by me, then skip it instead of acting a fool.
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
Aren't all your posts the same?
Death to roid users!
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
And he did it during the infamous Greenies Era
After all, the use of PEDs such as Greenies was such that it casts doubt on the entire era of players.
Ruth did it completely naturally, off of the best and most talented white pitchers of his era.
Interesting Note
it is very possible that in 15 years the following will not be in the HOF
HR King (ARod if he does set the record)
Current HR King (Bonds)
Broke Maris Record (Big Mac)
Prolific Strike Out Pitcher (Clemens)
Most 60 HR seasons (Sosa)
Hits King (Pete Rose)
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
A-Rod is going in
Hate to break your little law-and-order fantasies, but he’s going in.
Bonds will be there too.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
just asking
do you look for a way to try to disagree with every post? lol
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
Bonds? NFW
If McGwire has a snow-balls chance in hell, where does that put Bonds?
Sweet Lou for Mayor in '11.
Clemens as well?
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
IMO, yes
A-Rod, the jury hasn’t even been assembled.
Bonds, Mac, Clemens: Out; one word: A-holes.
Sosa: Not yet. Rationale is he’s not yet been fingered in any report. Now if the remaining 103 guys’ list has his name on it and he pulls a 3/17/05 congressional hearing, can’t speak English crock, then he’s out.
Rose: Heavily leaning to Out. If he fessed up initially and then didn’t go on this book/memorabilia thing, he’d have a much better shot.
Sweet Lou for Mayor in '11.
Rose
should be in as a player IMO. his gambling was not when he was playing IIRC.
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
are you implying
a baseball player would lie about something he did?
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
Bonds was a Hall of Famer
Before he even thought about steroids. And it looks like he’s going to skate on the worst of the current charges.
Bonds gets in. As more guys get nailed, it only helps Bonds, McGwire, etc… If it were just those clowns, I could see putting them out.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
Bonds
might not get in jsut because he was a jerk to many reporters, and guess what….those same reporters are the ones who will be voting for or against him when its his turn on the ballot.
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
Any reporter voting on that basis
Should have their voting card taken away.
It’s not the Hall of How You Treat The Media.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
Agree
but the sports writers and the HOF Vet Committee do not vote on numbers, but on bias, it is a given, just look at those who are in and those who are not in.
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
Deserved or not...fair or not...
…I think the vast majority of those who vote for Hall of Famers view Bonds as someone who has been bad for the game of baseball. He is, in a word, toxic. Although his numbers before and after the steroid scandal broke are Hall-worthy, those who have the power to vote for Barry Bonds simply will not.
We are a fever ... we are a fever ... we ain't born typical.
Right now...
But we have 15+ years to settle this.
2022 or whenever his last year of eligibility happens to be is a long way away.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
That's true.
I suppose anything’s possible. Just can’t imagine him getting virtually any votes right now or in the near future.
We are a fever ... we are a fever ... we ain't born typical.
The numbers are what they are.
No asterisks.
However, it will be up to future generations to interpret them, and that includes leaving those who the voters feel don’t deserve the Hall of Fame, to decide whether they’ll get in or not.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al Yellon on Feb 9, 2009 6:40 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
This makes the most sense to me.
In other words, being an educated consumer is your best defense.
We are a fever ... we are a fever ... we ain't born typical.
this one still makes me smile
Well, Next Year is here .. and Jack's century's gotta end some time .. GO CUBBIES!
by cubnational on Feb 9, 2009 10:49 PM CST reply actions 3 recs
Yes those poor innocent victimized pitchers
who almost certainly weren’t using or benefiting from PEDs themselves.
I was not calling the pitchers innocent
but if anyone wants an asterisk on the hitter, such as Bonds, what about the pitchers stats, that is what i was asking.
"I like coconuts, you can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun" Widespread Panic
The whole asteriks things is just so disingenuous to begin with
Every era has been so different, and the steroid era is just another era.
Why do we call it the Steroid Era anyway? It’s also the era of Tommy John surgery, of modern conditioning and training, of thin handled bats, of smaller ballparks, of global warming, of over-expansion, of longer careers, of juiced baseballs, of faster fastballs, and so on.
Why do we cling to this one change in our era and cry, “This changed everything!” I hate to break it to you – everything changed on its own already.
- weather is highly correlated to home runs after all
The only asterisk
should be Ruth, as in the greatest HR hitter ever.
With the lower mound (10" vs 15"), severely diluted talent and band box ball parks, he’d hit over 1,000 in today’s era.
Any individual that can out-homer entire teams – and do it often – is the greatest HR hitter ever.
Which makes Cubnational’s pic all that more applicable.
Sweet Lou for Mayor in '11.
And, don't forget...
… Ruth was primarily a pitcher his first four years. He hit 699 of his HR in a 17-year period from 1918-1934.
That’s an average of 41 HR a year for 17 years. No one else has done that. The closest is Bonds, who averaged 38 HR for the last 17 years of his career (1991-2007).
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
Not the prototypical pitcher either, eh?
It’s yet another item to the list showing Ruth was the greatest HR hitter ever.
The stories my dad and grand-dad told me about Ruth, seeing him hit against the Cubs in the ‘32 WS, and both having seen him in the original Yankee Stadium, thought there wasn’t a more prolific HR hitter.
Sweet Lou for Mayor in '11.
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